| jcastro | 8 minutes until "How to Run a Jam!" | 15:54 |
|---|---|---|
| dholbach | jcastro: I would have dented it, but twitter is a bit screwed | 15:56 |
| jcastro | dholbach: I put it on identi.ca | 15:56 |
| jcastro | but my gwibber is broken so I had to do it on the website | 15:56 |
| dholbach | yeah | 15:57 |
| nizarus | strange my gwibber is broken too... | 15:59 |
| sebner | twitter seems to be pretty br0ken :P | 15:59 |
| jcastro | maybe that's what's breaking gwibber | 15:59 |
| jacob | oddly enough gwibber is working here. it usually drops all of my messages | 16:00 |
| dholbach | buenos dias! | 16:00 |
| jureba | Hola! | 16:00 |
| nizarus | salamou alaykoum :) | 16:01 |
| jcastro | let's give it a few more minutes for the stragglers | 16:01 |
| jcastro | in the meantime introduce yourselves! | 16:01 |
| * dholbach is Daniel Holbach from the Ubuntu Berlin team - and we'll have a Jam on 3rd October! :) | 16:01 | |
| pleia2 | I'm Elizabeth Krumbach from the Pennsylvania team :) we're having a mythbuntu jam + doc jam | 16:02 |
| jureba | Hi, this is Jose from Madrid, Spain | 16:02 |
| * ianto is Christopher Swift of Ubuntu Cymru (Wales) - And our Jam is in the nation's Capital library on 3 - 4 October | 16:02 | |
| dpm | hi everyone | 16:02 |
| jacob | ubuntu-us-ohio here, _still_ figuring out details on a jam in Cleveland | 16:02 |
| * jcastro is jorge castro from ubuntu-michigan | 16:02 | |
| sbc | o/ I'm Søren Caspersen from the Danish team. We hope to have a bug jam, but are not entirely sure yet | 16:02 |
| * nizarus is Nizar Kerkeni from Tunisian LoCo we are planning to run our first jam | 16:02 | |
| * andol is Andreas Olssom from the Swedish LoCo. We will have a (bug) jam the 3rd of October. | 16:02 | |
| dholbach | james_w: Jam in Bristol? | 16:03 |
| james_w | always | 16:03 |
| james_w | my life is one big sticky mess | 16:03 |
| jcastro | ok, before we start, if you're participating in the global jam, then your loco should be listed here: | 16:04 |
| jcastro | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam/Events | 16:04 |
| jcastro | please add yourself if you haven't already | 16:04 |
| jcastro | ok let's get started! | 16:05 |
| jcastro | first of all, welcome! | 16:05 |
| * dholbach hugs y'all :-) | 16:05 | |
| jcastro | This session is for local teams who want to know how to run what we call "Jams" | 16:05 |
| jcastro | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams is the URL | 16:05 |
| jcastro | for those of you who want to read ahead | 16:05 |
| jcastro | So basically, a Jam is when a bunch of ubuntu enthusiasts get together and do something useful for ubuntu. | 16:06 |
| jcastro | anything from installfests, bug jams, packaging courses, you name it | 16:06 |
| jcastro | last year we had a "Global Bug Jam", which was a big bug triaging session all around the world | 16:06 |
| jcastro | that went so well that we decided to do one huge "Global Jam", so LoCos could work on all sorts of things that interest them | 16:06 |
| jcastro | So you can do Doc Jams, Testing Jams, Translations Jams, as well as Packaging and Bug Jams. | 16:07 |
| jcastro | whatever interests your LoCo | 16:07 |
| jcastro | so for example on the sign up page you'll see LoCos signing up for different jams | 16:07 |
| jcastro | or even doing their own, like NY is focusing on security, and Pennsylvania is doing mythbuntu | 16:08 |
| jcastro | and california still doesn't know what it wants to do. :D | 16:08 |
| dholbach | :-) | 16:08 |
| jcastro | the most important thing to remember about holding a jam is that the key to success is for the Local Team to get together | 16:08 |
| dholbach | if you're a bit bigger team and there's various interests you can also think about nominating people who take care of the organisation of parts of the jam | 16:08 |
| jcastro | the purpose is to bring people together in real life and mentor each other | 16:09 |
| dholbach | (somebody takes care of Translations and is the "go-to" guy for that, somebody else does bug stuff, etc.) | 16:09 |
| jcastro | so if you hold a jam and you feel like you didn't accomplish too much then don't worry about that | 16:09 |
| jcastro | because as your LoCo grows you'll get better at that kind of thing | 16:09 |
| jcastro | you should concentrate on having a good time and learning | 16:09 |
| jcastro | development of your team should be the priortiy | 16:10 |
| jcastro | ok, so, since lots of people have been running Jams now we have put together a list of tips and tricks | 16:10 |
| jcastro | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams | 16:10 |
| jcastro | Usually the tough part is getting a venue | 16:11 |
| vubuntor6765 | hello | 16:11 |
| jcastro | if you're participating in the global jam you hopefully have a venue already picked out. | 16:11 |
| jcastro | This can be difficult, one person wrote in to me that he couldn't find a place because they needed X amount of people, but he couldn't get X amount of people to show up without a venue! | 16:11 |
| dholbach | and if you have just a few people participating you might want to consider inviting people to your house... Ubuntu people usually behave themselves. :-) | 16:11 |
| jcastro | Right, another good place is your local library | 16:12 |
| jcastro | or civic center or something. | 16:12 |
| ianto | I second the library, it was what the Welsh team is using! :) | 16:12 |
| afterlastangel | tomorrow is Software Freedom Day | 16:12 |
| ianto | s/was/is/g | 16:12 |
| brobostigon | :) | 16:12 |
| jcastro | so they key parts to the venue would be normal things that geeks need | 16:12 |
| jcastro | so power and internet | 16:12 |
| jcastro | a projector is also useful because you can do tutorials and things on the screen while other people see what you are doing | 16:13 |
| jcastro | for bug jams we keep a projector handy | 16:13 |
| jacob | and a supply of caffeine? ;) | 16:13 |
| jcastro | so when a person get's stuck on a bug we put it up on the big screen and discuss it | 16:13 |
| jcastro | this is useful because the experienced people end up telling their knowledge to the new people. | 16:13 |
| jcastro | and something like bug triaging is a skill that you forget if you're not doing it all the time | 16:14 |
| jcastro | so it helps the experienced people stay sharp | 16:14 |
| jcastro | because humans are good at becoming experts at something if we teach someone else to do it | 16:14 |
| jcastro | and yes, jacob brings up a good point | 16:14 |
| jcastro | you should plan for sustinance | 16:14 |
| jcastro | so if you're having a 12 hour jam you should plan in for a lunch/dinner somewhere | 16:15 |
| brobostigon | food and drink. | 16:15 |
| jcastro | right | 16:15 |
| jcastro | for example like most LoCos, ours does not function without beer. | 16:15 |
| jcastro | so you need to plan for these things ahead of time | 16:15 |
| jcastro | If you meet at a local restaurant (which is commong), you'll want to get reservations, etc. | 16:15 |
| jcastro | we always have to ask for certain tables with power access, etc. | 16:16 |
| jcastro | ok, so that's all I have for venues | 16:16 |
| jcastro | anyone have any tips to share? | 16:16 |
| brobostigon | facilities, is you have disabled members. | 16:16 |
| jcastro | ah, that's a good point | 16:17 |
| jcastro | accessability is important for a bunch of things | 16:17 |
| jcastro | like, if you have your meeting in the smoking session of a pub but you have 3 underage non-smokers | 16:17 |
| jcastro | that would affect your attendance. :D | 16:17 |
| dholbach | hahaha | 16:17 |
| jcastro | A long time ago there was this story of this guy who got invited to speak at LinuxWorld but they wouldn't let him in because he was underage | 16:18 |
| jcastro | but anyway ... | 16:18 |
| dholbach | if you can, try to plan in enough time for everything, 2-3 hours might be just enough to get to know each other, get everybody set up and a quick introduction :) | 16:18 |
| brobostigon | we have a member who requires a wheelchair, so venue wheelchair access. | 16:18 |
| jcastro | also don't forget other supplies | 16:18 |
| jcastro | people will always need power strips, ubuntu CDs, etc. | 16:18 |
| jcastro | you'll never know when that ethernet cable might come in handy! | 16:19 |
| dholbach | I take with me an extra harddisk with Karmic ISOs for the Test Jam part | 16:19 |
| jcastro | ok, after you have a place let's talk about promotion a bit | 16:19 |
| dholbach | somebody is going to bring a local mirror on his laptop | 16:19 |
| jcastro | this is basically telling people in your area about the event | 16:19 |
| jcastro | this involves mailing other mailing lists | 16:19 |
| jcastro | perhaps contacting your local lug | 16:19 |
| jcastro | putting up flyers at the local PC shops | 16:20 |
| dholbach | the Berlin team is also mailing local Debian developers | 16:20 |
| jcastro | or whatever other creative thing you can think of | 16:20 |
| dholbach | TV Ads, Magazine Ads, everything is OK ;-) | 16:20 |
| jcastro | heh | 16:20 |
| jcastro | so hopefully by now people in your local area kno0w about the global jam | 16:20 |
| jcastro | but it's never too late to keep sending out stuff | 16:20 |
| dholbach | and try to be precise about what you're going to do there | 16:21 |
| dholbach | probably the first question you're going to get is: will you help us fix our Ubuntu installation? | 16:21 |
| dholbach | or: is this tutorials and workshops and stuff? | 16:21 |
| dholbach | better be clear about hands-on-making-ubuntu-better | 16:21 |
| dholbach | :) | 16:21 |
| jcastro | right | 16:22 |
| jcastro | although invariably someone always shows up needing help | 16:22 |
| jcastro | which is fine too of course | 16:22 |
| dholbach | sure | 16:22 |
| jcastro | also, the time leading up to the jam is a good time to prepare attendees | 16:22 |
| jcastro | if you're doing bug stuff and stuff you'll want to make sure people have launchpad accounts before hand | 16:23 |
| dholbach | and gobby installed :) | 16:23 |
| jcastro | if 30 people show up and they all need lp accounts it could eat up precious together-time | 16:23 |
| jcastro | so usually reminding people is a good idea | 16:23 |
| ianto | Some venues may need for example, a library card to enter ^ | 16:24 |
| jcastro | dholbach: oh, we should add gobby to the Jams prereq section | 16:24 |
| jcastro | ianto: good point | 16:24 |
| dholbach | jcastro: on it | 16:24 |
| jcastro | so there's all sorts of ways to promote stuff | 16:24 |
| jcastro | anyone have any other tips? | 16:24 |
| jcastro | the wiki page lists obvious things like twitter/facebook, etc. | 16:24 |
| jacob | perhaps video streaming parts of the event? ustream.tv/mogulus are nice | 16:25 |
| jacob | s/mogulus/livestream/ | 16:25 |
| jcastro | right | 16:26 |
| jcastro | also, lots of pictures | 16:26 |
| pleia2 | we have a lot of local tech groups and non-profits that don't have a linux focus, but have been interested in events, contacting them with event info is great | 16:26 |
| jcastro | we like to have at least one photo per loco who participates to make a big collage | 16:26 |
| jcastro | pleia2: yeah, events like this are good for people who go to computer groups who have heard of that ubuntu thing but would like more information | 16:27 |
| dholbach | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam/Stories | 16:27 |
| dholbach | ^ we want you on there :) | 16:27 |
| jcastro | the part after the jam is also important | 16:28 |
| jcastro | we like to see planet flooded with stories and pictures of people having a good time | 16:28 |
| jcastro | one thing that we just added is the Testing Part of the Jams: | 16:29 |
| jcastro | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams/Testing | 16:29 |
| jcastro | if you have a LiveCD of Karmic (the beta will be out the thursday before the jam) | 16:29 |
| jcastro | you can boot it up, and right from there do a submission to the hardware database | 16:29 |
| jcastro | and run the little tests and all that | 16:29 |
| jcastro | this is very important because the weekend after beta we have tons of people all over the world gathering together | 16:30 |
| jcastro | and since it's really easy, just booting into a liveCD, perhaps it's something you can use to warm up new people with | 16:30 |
| dholbach | and we have a lot of test cases, so everybody can grab a few: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing | 16:31 |
| dholbach | if you have a few spare USB keys, you can easily use usb-creator to create live-usb-sticks and ask people to test with them | 16:31 |
| jcastro | especially with the fresh beta, that will be real handy! | 16:31 |
| dholbach | yep | 16:31 |
| jcastro | since people will be bringing all sorts of hardware | 16:31 |
| jcastro | and a livecd won't break their existing computer | 16:32 |
| jcastro | so it's a nice low-barrier/high-win of awesome. | 16:32 |
| dholbach | AWESOME | 16:32 |
| jcastro | do we have anymore tips? | 16:32 |
| jcastro | I think we've covered most of the things you need | 16:32 |
| jcastro | anyone have questions or comments? | 16:32 |
| dholbach | are there any concerns you still have or things you're unsure about? | 16:33 |
| jcastro | any comments from the last jam for those of you who have participated in the past? | 16:34 |
| dholbach | or maybe what kind of jams did you do the last time and what are you trying out now? | 16:35 |
| jcastro | beuller? | 16:37 |
| dholbach | brobostigon, pleia2, ianto, dpm, sbc, jureba, nizarus: you guys are all set? | 16:37 |
| dholbach | or is there anything that's still unclear or problematic? | 16:37 |
| ianto | dholbach: Yep | 16:37 |
| brobostigon | dholbach: yes. | 16:37 |
| nizarus | o/ | 16:38 |
| dholbach | all good... all jams planned? :) | 16:39 |
| dpm | all set | 16:39 |
| dholbach | any great tips or tricks from you? | 16:39 |
| sbc | dholbach: My biggest problem is getting people to show up. A jam with just me will be kind of boring. Hopefully people will respond to my mails / forum posts going out this weekend. | 16:39 |
| dholbach | or what are you most excited about? | 16:39 |
| dholbach | sbc: try the "contact team" feature of LP | 16:39 |
| dholbach | sbc: and mention that there's beer after the event! | 16:39 |
| sbc | dholbach: We have a fine working mail list, problem is if people have the time / want to. But I hope so. And beer alwas works as a lure ;) | 16:40 |
| vojtech_t | i have a question. is it good idea to run jam only virtually -- via audio/videoconference (ekiga), irc or something like this? | 16:40 |
| andol | sbc: Well, if nothing else, you'r welcome to Linköping :) | 16:40 |
| brobostigon | dholbach: if i can attend ubuntu-cym's, i will do beer organising, :) | 16:40 |
| ianto | Club Ubuntu did that last year ^ | 16:40 |
| dholbach | vojtech_t: sure... if there's no way around it, you can do that | 16:41 |
| vojtech_t | our problem is, that there are about 10 interested in Jam in the Czech rep. bud they are from six cities/towns | 16:41 |
| dholbach | generally it's just preferrable to meet up and get to know each other | 16:41 |
| vojtech_t | s/10/10 people/g | 16:41 |
| dholbach | it's so much easier to have a chat and help each other when you can just have a look at somebody else's screen | 16:41 |
| dholbach | vojtech_t: are those 10 people spread over the whole country? | 16:41 |
| vojtech_t | unfortunately yes | 16:41 |
| dholbach | ah I see - that can be difficult then | 16:42 |
| dholbach | although... there's always a good reason to meet in Prague, isn't there? :-) | 16:42 |
| ianto | Oh a question, how late do we leave it until we go out for a drink without feeling guilty? :) | 16:42 |
| nizarus | what if we havent an experianced user ? | 16:42 |
| dholbach | ianto: in Berlin we plan to be around from 11 to 19 | 16:43 |
| vojtech_t | dholbach: Prague isn't good idea... I hear them all saying "oh no, everything is in Prague..." (I'm from Prague) | 16:44 |
| dholbach | nizarus: that's a good question | 16:44 |
| dholbach | vojtech_t: I see what you mean :) | 16:44 |
| dholbach | nizarus: if you head to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams you can take a look at the top bar there (Testing, Translations, Bug, etc.) | 16:45 |
| nizarus | yes dholbach | 16:45 |
| brobostigon | budweiser budvar, rocks. | 16:45 |
| dholbach | I think at least Translations and Testing should be self-explanatory and easy to prepare | 16:45 |
| dholbach | I agree that Packaging without having an expert might be a bit slow and complicated | 16:45 |
| dholbach | but I guess the rest should be easier | 16:45 |
| dholbach | if the documentation doesn't make sense | 16:45 |
| dholbach | come and talk to dpm, jcastro and me :) | 16:46 |
| dholbach | and mdke and davmor :) | 16:46 |
| nizarus | in each cases having tutors is recommended | 16:47 |
| jcastro | nizarus: if you don't have an experienced packager then don't do a packaging jam, I would start with a test jam and live CDs | 16:47 |
| YoBoY | dholbach: come where? :p | 16:48 |
| dholbach | YoBoY: hm? | 16:48 |
| dholbach | ah ok :) | 16:48 |
| YoBoY | for the doc | 16:48 |
| dholbach | just talk to us on IRC or mail us | 16:48 |
| dholbach | and we can improve the docs | 16:48 |
| YoBoY | we have shared some ideas last time, but i don't know yet what to do exactly | 16:49 |
| dholbach | YoBoY: what are you thinking about? | 16:50 |
| YoBoY | upgrading doc for karmic, erasing old docs (related to no more supported releases), making wanted pages, ... | 16:51 |
| dholbach | ah ok | 16:52 |
| dholbach | well there's a bunch of tasks at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams/Docs#Tasks | 16:52 |
| sbc | andol: Thanks, but 5 hours each way is a bit much for transport time :) If you had jams in Malmö or Lund that might be closer. | 16:53 |
| YoBoY | ho this page is more complete than last time i saw it | 16:53 |
| dholbach | YoBoY: mdke put a lot of work into it | 16:54 |
| YoBoY | i see, great work | 16:54 |
| jcastro | ok well, that's pretty much it | 16:55 |
| jcastro | we got through a bunch of it quickly | 16:55 |
| jcastro | as always, feel free to ping myself, dpm, or dholbach if you have questions | 16:55 |
| dholbach | or ask in #ubuntu-locoteams | 16:55 |
| ianto | jcastro: off-toopic, but can I ask what happened to yesterday's meeting? there were lots of us waiting in #ubuntu-meeting and nothing happened | 16:56 |
| dholbach | there's a lot of experienced loco team contacts in there :) | 16:56 |
| dholbach | rock on everybody! | 16:56 |
| jcastro | ianto: we rescheduled it for next week because no one showed up in #ubuntu-locoteams | 16:57 |
| jcastro | ianto: those meetings are in #ubuntu-locoteams afaik | 16:57 |
| jcastro | hmm, now I am confused | 16:57 |
| jcastro | ah no, they're in here | 16:57 |
| ianto | jcastro: You emailed saying there was an overwhelming turnout and jono tweeted -meeting | 16:57 |
| ianto | about 10 mins before | 16:58 |
| jcastro | -meeting? I did | 16:58 |
| jcastro | sigh. | 16:58 |
| jcastro | that was a mistake on my part. | 16:58 |
| jcastro | ok, next week for sure | 16:59 |
| jcastro | in here. | 16:59 |
| jcastro | ianto: sorry about that. :-/ | 16:59 |
| ianto | OK no problem ^ | 16:59 |
| jureba | * | 17:15 |
| === egon_ffj1 is now known as egon_ffj | ||
| === egon_ffj1 is now known as egon_ffj | ||
| wubbbi | Hello :) | 19:44 |
| * funkyHat dances | 19:57 | |
| * ikt dances | 19:58 | |
| sistpoty | hiho | 20:03 |
| * sistpoty just quickly finishes a mail and will then start, ok? | 20:03 | |
| ikt | ok :) | 20:04 |
| === pleia2 changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Packaging/Training || Now: Fri Sep 18 @ 19:00 UTC: Fixing FTBFS; Upcoming: Thu Oct 1 @ 06:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Q&A || Run 'date -u' in a terminal to find out the UTC time | ||
| sistpoty | so who's around for the FTBFS session? | 20:05 |
| * Rail is | 20:05 | |
| sistpoty | thanks pleia2 | 20:05 |
| pleia2 | sure thing :) | 20:05 |
| * norax_ is | 20:05 | |
| * sebner waves | 20:05 | |
| * funkyHat is ^·^ | 20:05 | |
| * ikt dances | 20:05 | |
| ikt | i mean hi | 20:06 |
| sistpoty | is geser around as well? :) | 20:06 |
| * funkyHat dances on ikt | 20:06 | |
| geser | sistpoty: yes | 20:06 |
| sistpoty | excellent, then let's get started | 20:06 |
| geser | I'm already looking for a good example | 20:06 |
| sistpoty | :) | 20:06 |
| sistpoty | first off, our recent archive rebuild showed a lot of packages, that fail to build from source (that's what FTBFS stands for) | 20:06 |
| sistpoty | you can see the results at http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20090909.html | 20:07 |
| geser | http://launchpadlibrarian.net/32020496/buildlog_ubuntu-karmic-i386.libofa_0.9.3-3_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz looks like a good candidate | 20:07 |
| sistpoty | yes, let's take this one | 20:08 |
| sistpoty | first off, a number of packages have already been fixed on the list | 20:08 |
| sistpoty | so please first check if the version in the archive is not already newer than the one in this list | 20:09 |
| sistpoty | however there are more good sources to look at in this list... | 20:10 |
| sistpoty | the "PTS" link goes straight to the debian package tracking system | 20:10 |
| dhillon-v10 | hi all how are you guys doing? | 20:10 |
| sistpoty | maybe unstable already has a newer version | 20:10 |
| sistpoty | the "BTS" link goes to the debian bug tracking system | 20:11 |
| sistpoty | eventually there's already a bug and/or a patch there | 20:11 |
| sistpoty | let's check | 20:11 |
| c_korn | sorry, I am late. which bug are you on currently ? | 20:12 |
| RoAkSoAx | c_korn, http://launchpadlibrarian.net/32020496/buildlog_ubuntu-karmic-i386.libofa_0.9.3-3_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz | 20:12 |
| sistpoty | c_korn: libofa from http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20090909.html | 20:12 |
| c_korn | thanks | 20:12 |
| dhillon-v10 | quit | 20:12 |
| sistpoty | now in this case, we're lucky, because at http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=504902 there already is a patch :) | 20:13 |
| stlsaint | lo all | 20:13 |
| geser | one should also look at the bugs in LP for that package in case an other contributor fixed it already and waits on sponsoring | 20:13 |
| sistpoty | https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libofa/+bugs | 20:14 |
| sistpoty | maybe we'll pick another package, where it's up to us to do the work? | 20:15 |
| * sistpoty looks for a good one | 20:17 | |
| geser | like http://launchpadlibrarian.net/31983196/buildlog_ubuntu-karmic-i386.libcommoncpp2_1.7.3-1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz? | 20:17 |
| * funkyHat doesn't see where libofa has been fixed ? | 20:18 | |
| geser | funkyHat: there is a Debian bug with a patch which "just" need to be packaged and sponsored into Ubuntu | 20:18 |
| sistpoty | geser: that one is excellent :) | 20:19 |
| DasEi | or tor.. | 20:19 |
| sistpoty | funkyHat: here: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=504902 | 20:19 |
| geser | while in itself easy to do (and should be done) it's not an good example how to fix it yourself | 20:19 |
| funkyHat | Ok. Perhaps I will have a go at fixing that one then, should be good practice | 20:20 |
| sistpoty | ok, so at first we'll be looking again at BTS and PTS, and at lp bugs of libcommoncpp2 | 20:20 |
| sebner | funkyHat: ping me and I'll sponsor it then | 20:21 |
| geser | sebner: to main? | 20:22 |
| sebner | geser: ah, didn't check where it's based :\ | 20:22 |
| sistpoty | so no fixes in BTS, no newer version in unstable and no open bugs in launchpad | 20:22 |
| sistpoty | for libcommoncpp2 | 20:22 |
| sistpoty | I guess I could offer sponsoring to main for FTBFSes ;) | 20:22 |
| sistpoty | however there's another thing we could check for libcommoncpp2 | 20:23 |
| sistpoty | if you type apt-cache showsrc libcommoncpp2 | 20:23 |
| sistpoty | you'll see a field called Vcs-Browser: http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/pkg-voip/libcommoncpp2/?op=log | 20:23 |
| funkyHat | (I'm not sure if there's a format I should use for the bug report, but I won't disturb the class any more) | 20:23 |
| sistpoty | and Vcs-Svn: svn://svn.debian.org/pkg-voip/libcommoncpp2/trunk/ | 20:23 |
| geser | (or use the links on the PTS page for libcommoncpp2) | 20:24 |
| sistpoty | funkyHat: along the lines "patch to fix FTBFS", please subscribe me if you've got a patch ;) | 20:24 |
| sistpoty | at this link (or the VCS link from PTS) is where development of the debianization happens | 20:25 |
| sistpoty | at a glance, there doesn't seem to be anything related to the FTBFS | 20:25 |
| sistpoty | finally, let's grab the sourcepackage and get working | 20:25 |
| sistpoty | while the source package downloads, let's try to see where the first error is that gcc reported | 20:26 |
| sistpoty | to make it more clear, I've pastebinned it (as taken from the build log) | 20:27 |
| sistpoty | http://paste.ubuntu.com/273724/ | 20:27 |
| sistpoty | so we'll need to look add ciddr.cpp, lines 205 and 335 | 20:28 |
| sistpoty | (they reside in the "src" subdirectory) | 20:28 |
| sistpoty | everyone got that file open right now? | 20:28 |
| funkyHat | yep | 20:29 |
| sistpoty | I've pastebinned the relevant part again: http://paste.ubuntu.com/273729/ | 20:30 |
| sistpoty | now gcc tells us about an "invalid conversion from 'const char*' to 'char*'" | 20:31 |
| sistpoty | a const pointer means, that you cannot change the object (memory) it points to | 20:32 |
| sistpoty | in c++ (and in c as well) you can only get rid of that const by casting | 20:32 |
| sistpoty | however casting often enough is not safe | 20:32 |
| sistpoty | e.g. if the memory is read-only memory (e.g. if it's a string constant like const char *s = "hello world";) | 20:33 |
| sistpoty | if you'd cast away the const for read only memory, the program would simply segfault when trying to write to it | 20:33 |
| sistpoty | the posix c string functions are a little bit nasty... you pass them a const char * | 20:33 |
| sistpoty | and you obtain a char * out of these, pointing to the memory that the parameter referred to | 20:34 |
| sistpoty | erm, I'm referring to strrchr for example (strchr and a few other follow that scheme) | 20:34 |
| sistpoty | this means, they implicitely get rid of the const (which might be dangerous) | 20:35 |
| sistpoty | in c there is sadly no alternative to it | 20:35 |
| sistpoty | however in c++, you can overload functions | 20:35 |
| sistpoty | and that's one of the gcc-4.4 changes | 20:35 |
| sistpoty | there exist two overloaded strrchr functions | 20:35 |
| sistpoty | one which gets a char * as parameter and returns a char * | 20:35 |
| sistpoty | and one which gets a const char * as parameter and returns a const char * | 20:36 |
| sistpoty | gcc then selects the correct one based on the parameter passed into it (not by the return type) | 20:36 |
| sistpoty | so with gcc-4.4 you can no longer accidentally get rid of the const by calling strrchr | 20:37 |
| sistpoty | in this example (line 205) , cp is declared const, hence the return value (ep) must also be const | 20:37 |
| sistpoty | however as ep is written to later, we cannot simply declare it const as well | 20:38 |
| sistpoty | let's try to see what the entire IPV4Cidr::set method does | 20:39 |
| sistpoty | the only place, where ep is written to, is straight afterwards, so let's take a closer look at this snippet | 20:41 |
| sistpoty | http://paste.ubuntu.com/273732/ | 20:41 |
| sistpoty | still following me so far? | 20:41 |
| c_korn | yes | 20:41 |
| funkyHat | Just about! | 20:41 |
| jureba | ya | 20:41 |
| sistpoty | ok, good | 20:42 |
| sistpoty | this snippet tries to find the last occurance of a '/' in cp | 20:42 |
| geser | in case you missed this write access, gcc will inform you during your test build (-> FTBFS :) | 20:42 |
| sistpoty | and then sets it to '\0' | 20:42 |
| sistpoty | which means it simply truncates cp at (i.e. before) the last '/'. | 20:43 |
| sistpoty | now comes the fun: this means that it writes to cp, which is passed as *const* into the method. tststs | 20:43 |
| sistpoty | at this point, we can either choose the unelegant and simple way, or try to get it right (which might mean pain, pain, pain) | 20:44 |
| geser | it looks like we found a bug | 20:44 |
| sistpoty | the simple way would be to assume that it worked before, and obviously the const'ness of cp is a red herring | 20:44 |
| sistpoty | so we can cast it away | 20:45 |
| sistpoty | with: const_cast<char *>(whatwewanttocast) | 20:45 |
| sistpoty | or in this case line 205: ep = strchr(const_cast<char *>(cp), '/'); | 20:46 |
| geser | sistpoty: from a look at this function, should line 211 (cp = cbuf) be moved before line 202? | 20:46 |
| sistpoty | geser: that could be | 20:47 |
| sistpoty | however the program could also require the side effect that cp is in fact changed | 20:47 |
| sistpoty | (that's always hard to judge from a glimpse) | 20:48 |
| geser | that's a problem :( | 20:48 |
| sistpoty | yes | 20:48 |
| geser | but anyway: this function doesn't seem to the right thing in case someone passes a string of e.g. "192.168.1/24" | 20:48 |
| sbeattie | geser: indeed. | 20:49 |
| sistpoty | yes, then it segfaults | 20:49 |
| sistpoty | of course if you're unsure, there's always one very good option to choose: | 20:49 |
| geser | sistpoty: I mean even if it's passed in a memory from e.g. strcpy | 20:49 |
| sistpoty | ask upstream :) | 20:49 |
| geser | the function takes our string, copies it (line 200), then strips it off at '/' and fills up the copy (still with the '/' with ".0" till it has 4 octects | 20:51 |
| geser | when now someone passes "192.168.1/24" it turns cp into "192.168.1" and makes cbuf contain "192.168.1/24.0" | 20:52 |
| sistpoty | yes, that looks like it | 20:52 |
| geser | don't know what inet_aton will make out of it | 20:52 |
| sistpoty | (parse it and convert it to a non-string representation) | 20:53 |
| geser | (and probably fail at the parsing) | 20:53 |
| geser | this is probably now a good time to look if upstream released a new version and look if it's fixed there else contact upstream with what we found out and let upstream handle it | 20:54 |
| c_korn | their homepage announces: GNU Common C++ 2.0 Beta Candidate | 20:56 |
| c_korn | http://www.gnu.org/software/commoncpp/ | 20:56 |
| sistpoty | hm... has anyone found a download link for the 2.0 beta yet? | 20:59 |
| * sistpoty only sees 1.7.3 | 20:59 | |
| * geser too | 20:59 | |
| sistpoty | and cvs seems to be 404 | 21:00 |
| c_korn | seems so | 21:00 |
| funkyHat | ftp://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/ftp.gnu.org/gnu/commoncpp/ | 21:01 |
| * BlackFate away | 21:01 | |
| sistpoty | ah, so it's called ucommon nowadays? | 21:02 |
| sistpoty | indeed it is, and I've also found our nice method again in the ucommon source package | 21:04 |
| sistpoty | it's in src/socket.cpp, line 788 | 21:05 |
| sistpoty | which a) has majored a bit, and b) seems to confirm geser's first idea how to fix it | 21:06 |
| sistpoty | <geser> sistpoty: from a look at this function, should line 211 (cp = cbuf) be moved before line 202? | 21:07 |
| sistpoty | so the string as is should be copied to cbuf, and only cbuf should get adjusted | 21:08 |
| sistpoty | let's try to do this | 21:09 |
| sistpoty | so we change line 205 to ep = strchr(cbuf, '/'); | 21:10 |
| sistpoty | any objection? | 21:11 |
| sistpoty | anyone still around? :) | 21:12 |
| c_korn | here | 21:12 |
| * geser is | 21:12 | |
| c_korn | just let's try if it builds :) | 21:12 |
| funkyHat | here, but this is over my head, I'll try to follow what I understand :) | 21:12 |
| sistpoty | well, for sure it won't because we didn't adjust the error in line 305 yet | 21:13 |
| geser | as one has seen here fixing FTBFS trains ones detective skill :) | 21:13 |
| sistpoty | funkyHat: just ask if anythings unclear | 21:13 |
| sistpoty | let's take a look at line 305 | 21:13 |
| sistpoty | any suggestions how to fix this? | 21:13 |
| geser | why does it need fixing? I seem to overlook something there | 21:14 |
| c_korn | line 335 ? | 21:15 |
| sistpoty | c_korn: yes, in the same file | 21:15 |
| sistpoty | cidr.cpp:335: error: invalid conversion from 'const char*' to 'char*' | 21:15 |
| sistpoty | (from the original build log) | 21:15 |
| geser | line 335 makes more sense | 21:15 |
| sistpoty | erm, sorry :) | 21:16 |
| c_korn | hm, ep gets written again | 21:16 |
| sistpoty | looks like a copy&paste bug to me :) | 21:16 |
| sistpoty | so anyone with a suggestion? | 21:17 |
| geser | and when you compare the function name and what it does with the one we just fixed, then the fix should be pretty obvious | 21:17 |
| nicolasvw | copy and paste fix ? ;) | 21:18 |
| sistpoty | nicolasvw: righto, let's use the buffer again | 21:18 |
| sistpoty | and finally now it's time to do a test-build | 21:19 |
| sistpoty | let's add a changelog entry and build it in pbuilder | 21:19 |
| sistpoty | hint: if you're working on a package, which might need a number of patches | 21:20 |
| sistpoty | it might be easier to install the build-dependencies on your system | 21:20 |
| sistpoty | and do a fakeroot make -f debian/rules binary | 21:20 |
| sistpoty | to test-build | 21:20 |
| sistpoty | as this can then (ideally) reuse the already built files and will only built your new changes (and dependencies) again | 21:20 |
| sistpoty | -- i.e. if the upstream build system supports it | 21:21 |
| sistpoty | of course as last action, you should then always test-build it in a clean (=pbuilder) environment | 21:21 |
| sistpoty | so anyone with a buildresult yet? | 21:22 |
| geser | an other option is to start directly in a pbuilder (pbuilder login) but one has to don't forget to copy the changes outside the pbuilder before one exits it | 21:23 |
| nicolasvw | (or use the --bindmounts option to pbuilder) | 21:23 |
| nicolasvw | ? | 21:23 |
| geser | what I currently do is using a pbuilder hook to get a shell if pbuilder fails so I can investigate or test more changes | 21:23 |
| geser | doesn't pdebuild use it? never used pdebuild | 21:24 |
| sistpoty | heh, me neither... (as I once wrote my own pdebuild alike variant *g*) | 21:24 |
| geser | one has to find the way which works for one the best (I prefer not to pollute my host system with -dev packages) | 21:25 |
| sistpoty | ok, it did build for me | 21:26 |
| sistpoty | so here's another thing that can be totally different | 21:26 |
| sistpoty | let's see if the package has a patch system. if so, we should add the fix as a patch, otherwise we can simply leave it as is | 21:27 |
| * sistpoty usually looks if there's a directory called debian/patches, but what-patch of ubuntu-dev-tools also should give you an answer | 21:27 | |
| sistpoty | (is that the right command *g*) | 21:27 |
| sistpoty | in this case, it uses dpatch | 21:28 |
| sistpoty | so here's my tricky way to apply it | 21:28 |
| sistpoty | as I already added a changelog entry, I now have got 2 .dsc files lying around | 21:28 |
| sistpoty | and can simple debdiff between these two | 21:28 |
| sistpoty | this however means that my changelog entry (which I don't want in there) is also in the debdiff | 21:29 |
| sistpoty | but with filterdiff, it can easily get excluded: | 21:29 |
| sistpoty | debdiff libcommoncpp2_1.7.3-1.dsc libcommoncpp2_1.7.3-1ubuntu1.dsc | filterdiff -x "libcommoncpp2-1.7.3/debian/*" | 21:29 |
| sistpoty | this one gives me the patch, which I'm putting into debian/patches | 21:30 |
| c_korn | hah, cheater. I never thought of that :) | 21:30 |
| sistpoty | now I've also need to add it to debian/patches/00list, so that it will get applied | 21:31 |
| sistpoty | and being a good citizen I should add a descriptive header to it | 21:31 |
| c_korn | but the patch is now already applied to the sources. do you revert it manually ? | 21:31 |
| sistpoty | either that, or I unpack the old sources (depending on how much unwanted damage I did to the sources) | 21:33 |
| c_korn | ok | 21:33 |
| sistpoty | however how you do it is pretty much your choice, you could also use dpatch-edit-patch | 21:34 |
| sistpoty | however after manually fiddling with patch systems, I usually do another test-build (one never knows *g*) | 21:36 |
| * c_korn usually sets up a git repository in the sources to get those patches :) | 21:37 | |
| sistpoty | but what you should always do (after your final build) is to debdiff between the old and the new dsc file | 21:37 |
| sistpoty | that way you can make sure that only changes you really want are in the new version | 21:38 |
| sistpoty | should I write something about adding a debian/changelog entry, or is this clear for everyone | 21:38 |
| sistpoty | ? | 21:38 |
| c_korn | clear to me (dholbach explained it in a session) | 21:39 |
| sistpoty | so what's left to do... | 21:40 |
| sistpoty | testing your fix is always a good idea | 21:41 |
| sistpoty | so you should install the resulting package and test it | 21:41 |
| sistpoty | in this case its a library, so testing it gets a little bit hard | 21:41 |
| sistpoty | but you should install it, and check the file contents | 21:42 |
| sistpoty | eventually a lintian run on the resulting binaries might also be a good idea... | 21:42 |
| sistpoty | however don't try to fix these bugs, but rather look out for really critical stuff | 21:42 |
| sistpoty | (happened to me recently, that after a no-change-rebuild the resulting package was empty, of course that a must to get this right then) | 21:43 |
| sistpoty | looks all good here :) | 21:44 |
| sistpoty | so now it's time to upload it to the archive, or (if you don't have powers to do so) to request sponsorship | 21:44 |
| sistpoty | but wait, we're not yet done... | 21:45 |
| c_korn | what about update-maintainer ? | 21:45 |
| sistpoty | c_korn: of course, mea culpa | 21:45 |
| sistpoty | (I silently did that for my package when dpkg-buildpackage bailed out) | 21:46 |
| sistpoty | however ther's more to do | 21:46 |
| sistpoty | forwarding the bug and the fix | 21:47 |
| sistpoty | as the same version is also in debian, I'm forwarding it there. | 21:47 |
| sistpoty | geser: anything else that should get mentioned? | 21:48 |
| sistpoty | any questions from anyone? | 21:50 |
| geser | nothing missed (or I missed it too because of the routine in doing it (like calling update-maintainer)) | 21:50 |
| sistpoty | heh | 21:50 |
| sistpoty | oh, I missed an important thing | 21:50 |
| sistpoty | as you've seen, fixing a FTBFS bug is not always trivial | 21:51 |
| sistpoty | so if you've come to a point, where you have no clue, it's a good idea to paste the build error (with a little bit of context) and the failing function in pastebin | 21:51 |
| sistpoty | and ask around (for example at #ubuntu-motu) | 21:51 |
| sistpoty | I'm quite sure, there'll always be someone in knowledge of the fix around, and most of the time will also give you an answer ;) | 21:52 |
| sistpoty | so concluding, I'd like to invite you all to #ubuntu-motu now, to get practice from the theoretical lesson right now | 21:53 |
| sistpoty | as a side note, until I'm too tired I'll be happy to sponsor fixes for FTBFS bugs ;)( | 21:53 |
| sistpoty | geser: oh, did you upload libcommoncpp2 already or did anyone else or should I do it? | 21:54 |
| funkyHat | sistpoty: good timing :) | 21:54 |
| * DasEi lacks c- / gcc knowledge for that | 21:54 | |
| funkyHat | I just subscribed you to my libofa bug | 21:54 |
| geser | sistpoty: no, I didn't upload it | 21:55 |
| geser | DasEi: there are also other FTBFS, if you are more familiar with e.g. perl look at those | 21:55 |
| sistpoty | geser: ok, then I'll uload it in 5 minutes (/me needs a short break first *g*) | 21:56 |
| funkyHat | I didn't really manage to follow the bug-fixing on this one as I don't know any c++, but I learnt stuff anyway :) | 21:57 |
| sistpoty | well, I'm already writing code in c++ since 7 years or so, but I still don't understand it yet :P | 21:58 |
| funkyHat | :D | 21:58 |
| c_korn | thank you sistpoty and geser for the great lesson. I am going for some bug hunting now :) | 21:59 |
| sistpoty | thanks everyone for coming! | 21:59 |
| sistpoty | excellent c_korn: | 21:59 |
| funkyHat | I'm going to wait for my first patch to be looked at before I try anything else, in case I got something wrong. Don't want to keep doing the wrong thing if I did :) | 22:00 |
| geser | funkyHat: not everyone is that hard like that one, some are only applying a patch from Debian (like libofa) or adding a const for the same error like in the libcommoncpp2 case. you still can try and abort if it gets to hard | 22:00 |
| funkyHat | geser: right, and I just fixed the libofa one, but I want to check I got it right, rather than fix another one wrong as well :) | 22:02 |
| geser | funkyHat: not that bad, missed one thing | 22:04 |
| geser | forget to call update-maintainer | 22:04 |
| funkyHat | Ah | 22:05 |
| funkyHat | Now I should debuild -S again, then debdiff again? | 22:05 |
| c_korn | eh, gambas2 FTBFS but the same version is already in karmic ? | 22:09 |
| geser | funkyHat: yes | 22:09 |
| funkyHat | geser: I guessed and did it already :) | 22:09 |
| geser | c_korn: the toolchain or one of the build-dependecies changed since it got build. | 22:10 |
| geser | that's the reason behind the archive test rebuild: to know that it still builds (we already know that it build (or not build) in the past) | 22:11 |
| c_korn | ah, ok | 22:11 |
| geser | imagine a SRU (or security upload) you want to do later just to find out that you have to first fix a FTBFS too | 22:12 |
| c_korn | right | 22:12 |
| c_korn | there is a newer version in debian but the changelog does not mention changes regarding the FTBFS bug: http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/g/gambas2/gambas2_2.15.2-1/changelog | 22:13 |
| geser | c_korn: AFAIR this specific problem only appears since g++ 4.4 with eglibc 2.10 (Debian still has g++ 4.3 as default and eglibc 2.10 is only in experimental, so there was no test build with it in Debian yet) | 22:15 |
| c_korn | hm, so what should I do now? file a sync request (which would require a FFe first) and patch it then ? or just patch it and it has to be merged later with debian in karmic+1 ? | 22:16 |
| geser | c_korn: if there is no good reason for the new upstream version, patch it | 22:27 |
| c_korn | ok | 22:27 |
| c_korn | hm, another invalid conversion in line 5. and I cannot constify it. http://pastebin.com/d3445f605 | 22:33 |
| c_korn | I better ask in #ubuntu-motu | 22:42 |
| sistpoty | yep, let's move to -motu | 22:43 |
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