[00:00] <cprofitt> My class was for Professional Learning Board
[00:00] <knudsonm_> Moodle is a learning management system, like WebCt and BlackBoard
[00:00] <knudsonm_> of course we like it because it's Open
[00:00] <cprofitt> it was for School Administrators though... and thus not very technical in nature
[00:01] <rippls_> @cprofitt - you mean you've done one course in Moodle?
[00:01] <cprofitt> My thinking is multiple choice and matching answers would be best for evaluating knowledge gained
[00:01] <cprofitt> rippls_, yes -- and got paid to do it.
[00:01] <cprofitt> http://professionallearningboard.com/
[00:02] <cprofitt> It is why I suggested Moodle for this project
[00:02] <cprofitt> though I did like Sakai (Sakai had some odd bugs when we tested)
[00:02] <cprofitt> I also liked Moodle because K-12 institutions are using it
[00:02] <knudsonm_> moodle has a lot of features, quizzes is just one
[00:02] <Vantrax> moodle has a much better community support base
[00:03] <knudsonm_> yes, moodle has huge international community
[00:03] <cprofitt> and it has a ton of extra features that can be added too it
[00:03] <knudsonm_> Lots of features are standard and admin has ability to customize a lot
[00:04] <knudsonm_> this might help
[00:04] <knudsonm_> moodle is just a website
[00:04] <cprofitt> true...
[00:04] <knudsonm_> anything you can do on a website can be done in moodle
[00:04] <knudsonm_> graphics, video, etc
[00:04] <cprofitt> My concern is that during my first course I got a lot of guidance on what tools fit my audience
[00:05] <cprofitt> and I think we need to have a game plan for how to train the technical minded here on how to develop a course
[00:05] <knudsonm_> i taught a 3-day bootcamp this summer and didn't get through half of what moodle can do
[00:05] <cprofitt> I would like to see courses in Moodle 'mix' content
[00:05] <cprofitt> as in some on-line self-directed mixed with IRC chat sessions like this
[00:06] <cprofitt> While there is a huge depth it would be helpful to know what tools would best fit for teaching technical concepts
[00:06] <cprofitt> and what the 'core' components are so we can focus on teaching those to course authors
[00:06] <rippls_> are these course going to be self-guided things (user takes it when-ever) or will the "teacher" be there sometimes?
[00:06] <cprofitt> both I would assume
[00:07] <knudsonm_> if they are sychronous, people on at same time, discussion forums and chat could be very useful for technical concepts
[00:07] <knudsonm_> manuals and tutorials can be posted for review
[00:09] <rippls_> how much material do you already have, do you have lesson plan?
[00:09] <cprofitt> I am not currently one of the course designers
[00:10] <knudsonm_> what is your role?
[00:10] <cprofitt> Not sure how to answer that... 'instigator' might be best description for now
[00:10] <rippls_> Moodle lets you structure a course by topics or time periods
[00:10] <cprofitt> I would like to develop a course later, but my experience with Linux is a bit 'light' right now
[00:11] <knudsonm_> ha ha ha, we are both instigators as well
[00:11] <cprofitt> perhaps 'facilitator' would be appropriate
[00:11] <BiosElement> I'd imagine most of the courses would be by topics to begin with at least.
[00:11] <rippls_> so it depends on how you want folks to proceed through the material
[00:11] <cprofitt> I really want to help Ubuntu reach K-12 and to do that we need courses that assist with adoption
[00:12] <rippls_> so who are these courses aimed at?
[00:12] <cprofitt> This is one of the issues I think we have...
[00:12] <cprofitt> we have a 'wide' arc on that
[00:12] <BiosElement> Depends on the course, We've got courses for system admin and will eventually have courses for beginners.
[00:12] <Vantrax> rippls_: it varies
[00:12] <cprofitt> it is for the general Ubuntu audience... home users
[00:12] <knudsonm_> okay, sounds to me (the teacher), like you are aiming at tech depts
[00:12] <cprofitt> for small business looking to adopt
[00:12] <Vantrax> rippls_: three groups really, sysadmin, developers/contributors. and users
[00:12] <cprofitt> for tech departments
[00:13] <cprofitt> and potentially for teachers who would like to use FOSS in the classroom
[00:13] <rippls_> so you're going to have course content on various areas the cover these folks in overlapping kinds of ways...?
[00:13] <cprofitt> and as Vantrax says those three groups are the 'silos' we made
[00:13] <knudsonm_> in the k-12 tech world, changing operating systems comes from IT
[00:13] <cprofitt> I suspect yes... I wish more of the course developers were here.
[00:14] <knudsonm_> teachers are no all that tech savvy as a whole
[00:14] <cprofitt> knudsonm_, it can come from both areas
[00:14] <cprofitt> iPod adoption has been completely teacher driven in my district
[00:14]  * cprofitt is a Systems Administrator for a K-12 district
[00:15] <knudsonm_> moodle has podcasting
[00:16] <Vantrax> yeah, im hoping to use that
[00:16] <Vantrax> im sure doctormo is too
[00:16] <rippls_> so one your front page you have three basic "directions" someone can take depending on their interest
[00:16] <rippls_> and that leads them to relevant courses...?
[00:16] <cprofitt> I prefer the term mediacast... but I digress
[00:16] <doctormo> ok I'm here!
[00:17] <knudsonm_> pod is not FOSS?
[00:18] <knudsonm_> moodle can:
[00:18] <knudsonm_> build books
[00:18] <knudsonm_> build lessons
[00:18] <knudsonm_> discussion forums
[00:18] <knudsonm_> chat
[00:18] <knudsonm_> mediacast
[00:18] <knudsonm_> quizzes
[00:18] <knudsonm_> self-testing
[00:19] <knudsonm_> wikis
[00:19] <knudsonm_> blogs
[00:19] <knudsonm_> links to files and website
[00:20] <knudsonm_> http://courses.woodlandschools.org/course/view.php?id=94
[00:20] <knudsonm_> moodle bootcamp link above
[00:20] <doctormo> OK one thing to point to is that tutorials and manuals already exist, we shouldn't be uploading those to our moodle site, but linking to the execelent docs team's work.
[00:21] <knudsonm_> yes
[00:21] <knudsonm_> moodle is just a shell
[00:21] <knudsonm_> a shell called a learning managment system
[00:22] <rippls_> in a structured way that allows folks to work through them in an order that build on something...
[00:22] <doctormo> knudsonm_: So the reason for the group is to organise the tools and workflows of course development in the Ubuntu community. This is for online (IRC) teachers or physical community center teachers like myself.
[00:22] <doctormo> knudsonm_: But the idea is that we collaberate and have a place and format to that in.
[00:22] <rippls_> then you do some self testing using quizzes so the person can see how much they absorbed...
[00:23] <doctormo> knudsonm_: So, moodle we hope can offer us a publishing venue. Since development in bzr/launchpad is already very useful.
[00:23] <knudsonm_> okay this should be fairly simple
[00:23] <knudsonm_> first you need a moodle server
[00:24] <knudsonm_> admin would someone a Course Creator
[00:24] <knudsonm_> Course Creator would then build a class
[00:24] <knudsonm_> Moodle has sections, called topics, you see examples on the previous moodle bootcamp link
[00:25] <cprofitt> we already have a Moodle server -- with courses up on it
[00:25] <cprofitt> Vantrax, do you have the link?
[00:25] <knudsonm_> link?
[00:25] <doctormo> knudsonm_: We're hoping that instead of building a class, the course creation would just publish one...
[00:26] <rippls_> your hoping for automated building of classed?  from what?
[00:26] <knudsonm_> what format are you current resources? manuals? tutorials?
[00:27] <doctormo> rippls_: Depends on how moodle is structured, that's what I'm hoping to find out.
[00:27] <doctormo> rippls_: I don't want to suck the life out of our volunteers when we have to build the kind of resources that we've put ourselves up for.
[00:28] <doctormo> And having them develop courses and then go through a million hoops to get each new version published would do that.
[00:28] <doctormo> But as I said, I don't have a clue how moodle works because no one will show me
[00:28] <cprofitt> once a course is built it can run in multiple session doctormo
[00:28] <BiosElement> doctormo, Why not just post the "sections" on moodle and link to the html page of the doc?
[00:28] <cprofitt> ie., it can be resused
[00:28] <doctormo> BiosElement: Does that allows us to develop quizzes or take advantage of any of the other features of moodle?
[00:28] <knudsonm_> doctormo_: yes, that would be the easiest
[00:29] <BiosElement> doctormo, Yep.
[00:29] <knudsonm_> you can either link to resources or build them in moodle
[00:29] <knudsonm_> moodle has a gradebook and is designed for academic classes
[00:30] <doctormo> cprofitt: Once a course is built I expect it to be modified a lot, I don't expect courses to remain very static at first.
[00:30] <doctormo> cprofitt: And most courses will have to be updated as new versions of ubuntu come out anyway
[00:30] <rippls_> doctormo: Basic Moodle is a blank slate, it doesn't come with automated features for course generation from some kind of "pool" of resources
[00:30] <doctormo> cprofitt: My concern is workflow.
[00:30] <knudsonm_> if file location don't change and filenames don't change, then updates would be automatic
[00:30] <BiosElement> doctormo, The dynamic bits like quizzes will be manged with moodle, the course would be in it's static html form. Simple solution
[00:31] <knudsonm_> k-12 has this discussion in the hard text vs online text arguments
[00:32] <knudsonm_> no matter how cumbersome, online is more up to date
[00:32] <knudsonm_> textbooks that is
[00:32] <doctormo> knudsonm_: Our problem would just be 'location of master', since our masters would be online, just not in moodle.
[00:33] <doctormo> I guess we'll have to pipe the data in or modify the files / databases on the fly as required
[00:33] <rippls_> How much does the Ubuntu help wiki change month to month?  Once you're pointing at various topics wouldn't it be pretty stable?
[00:33] <doctormo> So, who will do the step by step walk through?
[00:33] <knudsonm_> you can link to a remote or local file in moodle
[00:34] <rippls_> doctormo: what do you mean?
[00:34] <knudsonm_> docs.moodle.org checking out Moodle Docs might spark some ideas
[00:35] <knudsonm_> There are "static" documents edited by the community, updated as necessary
[00:35] <doctormo> I'm hoping someone will be able to help me understand what I'm looking at here, so far I've got a bunch of manuals and no real clue what it means.
[00:35] <rippls_> do we have a test server we can log into?
[00:36] <rippls_> I was told that would be possible, I don't want to hand you all the keys to my production server!!
[00:36] <doctormo> rippls_: Yes, cprofitt or Vantrax do these guys have logon accounts?
[00:36] <cprofitt> I did not make them one...
[00:36] <knudsonm_> http://courses.woodlandschools.org/mod/resource/view.php?id=7244 is a link to an Online Moodle book
[00:37] <knudsonm_> This is free for download through Creative Commons
[00:37] <cprofitt> this is ours -- http://learn.ufbt.net/
[00:38] <rippls_> can I log in as an admin?
[00:39] <cprofitt> that would be up to bodhi and he is not here
[00:39] <rippls_> ok... so my first comment is everyone is an admin looking at the front page
[00:40] <rippls_> in Moodle you have a site admin, then course creators the teachers, then students...
[00:40] <Vantrax> okies sorry about that
[00:40] <Vantrax> logins.. what logins we need:P
[00:40] <rippls_> you can structure your site using categories...
[00:41] <rippls_> they're "boxes" you can put other categories and/or courses into
[00:41] <Vantrax> test environment you can do anything with: http://learn.bodhizazen.net/moodle/
[00:41] <rippls_> you can assign right over categories and they filter down to everything below...
[00:42] <doctormo> ok sounds good rippls_
[00:42] <rippls_> we sill all need to log in as admin to see the possibilities of structuring course layout...
[00:42] <Vantrax> okies, give me a min to make generic admin account
[00:44] <Vantrax> on the playpen http://learn.bodhizazen.net/moodle/ its administrator and testadmin
[00:45] <knudsonm_> now we're cooking
[00:45] <Vantrax> most of the links in the theme are dead ends atm
[00:45] <Vantrax> its a placeholder untill we get some structure worked out
[00:45] <rippls_> where's the site administration block?
[00:46] <rippls_> (I'm in...)
[00:46] <Vantrax> <- knows almost nothing about moodle
[00:46] <Vantrax> administration block is??
[00:47] <knudsonm_> this moodle looks foreign to us
[00:47] <Vantrax> he he he he
[00:47] <rippls_> Nice interface but it seems to be stripped of editing functionality!
[00:47] <Vantrax> okies, ill see if I can give you admin in the live environment:P
[00:49] <Vantrax> bah cprofitt can you remember what the openID URL's looked like
[00:49] <Vantrax> i know they are based on the launchpad ones
[00:50] <doctormo> Interesting
[00:50] <Vantrax> got it
[00:51] <BiosElement> Ok, I'll offer up my test install of moodle if it'd help. I can give the primary admin login to whoever needs it to toy around.
[00:51] <cprofitt> https://launchpad.net/~<yourname>
[00:51] <knudsonm_> I'm almost thinking that everyone should go read the Introduction and Chapter 1 of the Using Moodle book
[00:51] <knudsonm_> this will give you a big picture of what Moodle can do
[00:52] <knudsonm_> you might not need what Moodle can do
[00:52] <cprofitt> we have two courses in moodle already...
[00:53] <Vantrax> ok so its testadmin and testadmin
[00:53] <knudsonm_> Moodle can be just a website on steroids or it can manage an online university course
[00:53] <cprofitt> I got them off of other sites... they were Creative Commons courses
[00:53] <Vantrax> on the live site
[00:55] <rippls_> so where are we logging into...
[00:55] <BiosElement> How about we just use a plain vanilla install of moodle.
[00:55] <BiosElement> Have fun - http://bioselement.com/uclp/moodle/ Username: admin Password: password
[00:56] <Vantrax> http://learn.ufbt.net/
[00:56] <rippls_> BiosElement: well that works...
[00:56] <BiosElement> It should. >.> I don't care if I have to re-install it and it should be working fine.
[00:57] <rippls_> can everyone get in there?
[00:57] <knudsonm_> i gotta go, i have parents coming for open house night
[00:59] <BiosElement> I'm pretty sure it'll work for everyone.
[01:02] <Vantrax> it works:P
[01:03] <doctormo> Yes
[01:04] <Vantrax> ducking out for a few min
[01:04]  * Vantrax lives in Australia and is at work
[01:04] <rippls_> so under sourses/add/edit courses you can create categories and courses...
[01:05] <rippls_> you create those and then assign roles...
[01:05] <rippls_> try to assign roles as low down as you can so they don't traverse other peoples stuff...
[01:06] <rippls_> if you look at our front page http://courses.woodlandschools.org/ everything there is a category
[01:06] <rippls_> the teachers are course creators within those and they build the courses
[01:07] <doctormo> rippls_: OK that makes sense, so our roles would be course publishers (who manage the course organisation and which things to merge in)
[01:08] <rippls_> basically a "course creator" can initiate a new course
[01:09] <rippls_> you can have "editing teachers" who can alter existing courses
[01:09] <cprofitt> doctormo, I have always seen our roles as 'course authors', 'course facilitators' and admins
[01:09] <rippls_> and "non-editing" teachers (probably not much use to you)
[01:09] <cprofitt> some facilitators may not be editors
[01:09] <doctormo> cprofitt: I don't know what a course facilitator is
[01:10] <BiosElement> doctormo, Teachers Aid sums it up.
[01:10] <rippls_> I would differentiate the course content into areas and then have someone that is the "course creator" for that section
[01:10] <doctormo> I reckon no one should be editing the courses through moodle, so everyone other than the course organiser would be read only.
[01:11] <rippls_> students can't edit courses, only acces material
[01:11] <rippls_> you should allow "login as guest" unless you want everyone to have to create an account
[01:12] <doctormo> rippls_: Can we have read access to the public without logging on?
[01:12] <cprofitt> rippls_, I do not mind guest access to view the catalog, but I would think an account would be needed to participate in a course
[01:12] <BiosElement> doctormo, Yes, the login as guest
[01:13] <rippls_> depends what you want the folks to do...
[01:13] <doctormo> BiosElement: So by default your "logged" as guest and then log in as someone else if you need to?
[01:13] <BiosElement> doctormo, By default you're not logged in at all and can either login as a guest or as a user. I think I understand it right
[01:13] <rippls_> different courses can have different permissions if you need them
[01:14] <rippls_> you have to log in as a guest at minimum to see course content
[01:14] <cprofitt> BiosElement, yes
[01:14] <doctormo> BiosElement: Well that's not very good
[01:14] <doctormo> I wonder if we can fix it so everyone is guest.
[01:15] <rippls_> you only need to differentiate between users if you're in forums or handing in assignments etc
[01:15] <rippls_> it completely up to yo if you allow folks to create personal profiles
[01:17] <cprofitt> doctormo, I would prefer with facilitated courses to require an actual account
[01:17] <cprofitt> using openID is not that difficult
[01:18] <BiosElement> I enabled autologin for guests doctormo So it is possible
[01:18] <rippls_> I've got to go soon... is there anything else you want details on re Moodle?
[01:21] <doctormo> cprofitt: I agree, if required we can tie it to launchpad openid specifically
[01:21] <cprofitt> we already have that working doctormo
[01:21] <cprofitt> I log in using my openID
[01:21] <doctormo> rippls_: I'd like to thank you and knudsonm_ for taking the time to answer some of our questions and go through a few things
[01:22] <BiosElement> rippls_, As would I. Thank you both for your time and help.
[01:22] <doctormo> cprofitt: No, I meant tie as is afix, so people can only use launchpad openid and no other.
[01:22] <BiosElement> doctormo, Why do that...I think you're making this more complicated then it needs to be... >.>
[01:22] <cprofitt> doctormo, ah...
[01:22] <cprofitt> I would rather it be an either or...
[01:23] <cprofitt> so people are comfortable with their method of registering
[01:23] <doctormo> cprofitt: For students yes, teachers and admins though should have lp accounts don't you think?
[01:23] <doctormo> Of course I'm not too bothered
[01:23] <cprofitt> the facilitated courses would be tough if the facilitator had no idea which student was asking a question
[01:23] <BiosElement> Well that's good because we're making this more complex then it needs to be now. Let em make a moodle account and be done with it. Simple as that, no need to get fancy.
[01:24] <cprofitt> I think for authors/admins/facilitators they should have LP accounts yes
[01:24] <rippls_> thanks... some of you have got our email address I think... feel free to email...
[01:25] <doctormo> BiosElement: It doesn't need to be complex, I'd be happy if after the design set up the only work on the moodle sign was setting up classroom events.
[01:29] <BiosElement> Well my vote is just to keep things as simple as possible, Every teacher gets a moodle account, students get one to ask questions or take a quiz, course creators get launchpad accounts, etc.
[01:34] <BiosElement> Really at this point I think our goal needs to be to simply get something that 'works' up and running
[01:44] <Vantrax> BiosElement: that is true, but once something is running it becomes harder to change
[01:44] <Vantrax> we need a workable middle ground that we can hopefully make minor changes too
[01:45] <BiosElement> Vantrax, To some degree, but we cannot let it cripple us in the here and now while we worry about possible future problems.
[01:47] <Vantrax> definately... this is something i have argued since the start, we need momentum as much as we need polish
[01:50] <BiosElement> Exactly.
[01:55] <youcanlinux> hello, here for moodle meeting
[01:56] <dinda> youcanlinux: hi
[01:56] <youcanlinux> hi dinda
[01:56] <cprofitt> Vantrax, we have a regular meeting too right?
[01:57] <Vantrax> I think so
[01:57] <Vantrax> Monday September 21st @ 9pm EDT (01:00 UTC September 22nd)
[01:58] <cprofitt> hey dinda
[01:58] <dinda> cprofitt: hey there!
[01:59] <cprofitt> Vantrax, doctormo pleia2 -- meeting in #ubuntu-meeting or in here?
[02:00] <dinda> pleia2 is off at a plug meeting tonight
[02:00] <cprofitt> k
[02:00] <cprofitt> I am in my NY State meeting too
[02:00] <cprofitt> and there is no 'agenda'
[02:01] <cprofitt> so not sure if we need to go to #ubuntu-meeting or just be informal in here as needed
[02:01] <dinda> then perhaps just a general 'state of where things stand" and some open questions?
[02:01] <Vantrax> sounds good
[02:01] <youcanlinux> k
[02:02] <dinda> i've been working on getting Moodle help for the team - there was supposed to be a session earlier today
[02:02] <dinda> did anyone make it?
[02:03] <cprofitt> Yes... they were here at 7pm EDT
[02:03] <cprofitt> I was here, but I did not really need help -- Vantrax and doctormo asked some questions though
[02:03] <dinda> great!
[02:04] <Vantrax> I think the big issue is we need to define roles for people and categories that content will come under
[02:04] <Vantrax> both are somewhat worked out but not finalised
[02:05] <Vantrax> we need to formalise it a bit and get things into the moodle install
[02:05] <Vantrax> Once we have those sorted I can get our theme fixed up so its ready to use
[02:05] <cprofitt> I agree Vantrax
[02:05] <dinda> excellent - is there a wiki page to help list the roles?
[02:06] <Vantrax> also we need to get some momentum going again
[02:06] <Vantrax> none yet:P
[02:06] <cprofitt> yeah... I am sorry I have not been present recently...
[02:06] <Vantrax> the categories are somewhat defined as the 4 sections on our homepage on the wiki
[02:06] <cprofitt> feel very bad about that...
[02:06] <youcanlinux> may i chime in ?
[02:06] <cprofitt> ... important in my other meeting... bbiaf
[02:06] <Vantrax> go for it youcanlinux
[02:06] <dinda> youcanlinux: please do
[02:08] <youcanlinux> I am into pedagogy and computers and tried moodle and I liked what I saw. I had set it up recently on Ubuntu, and now that I'm trying to set it up with postgresql, I'm having issues.
[02:08] <youcanlinux> I understood this meeting tonight to be about tweaking and using Moodle, from a practical standpoint.
[02:09] <Vantrax> id catch up with bodhizazen if you want to help configuring moodle, this group is about a particular installation used for helping teach ubuntu to new people
[02:09] <youcanlinux> In other words, I don't think this is a developer's meeting so much as it is about educator's trying to sort out moodle?
[02:10] <youcanlinux> I'm not here for help with my configuration, i'll get it sorted out. I am curious about why people would use open-source software like moodle and what they want help with.
[02:10] <youcanlinux> I'm a big Ubuntu fan and I really like moodle. I am curious about what questions ppl might have about it.
[02:11] <dinda> youcanlinux: there are several reasons education is switching to open source. . .
[02:11] <dinda> youcanlinux: first, the free licenses make it easy to try
[02:11] <youcanlinux> "For helping teach Ubuntu to new people" that sounds great. I'm a big fan of open source.
[02:12] <dinda> youcanlinux: but also from an education standpoint, the way open source works matches very well with various educational philosophies and teaching methodoogies
[02:13] <dinda> There is no cost, other than time to try open source software, the next step is in matching the technology to teaching content/methodology
[02:13] <dinda> youcanlinux: it's that second step that many education institutions have problems with
[02:14] <youcanlinux> I've worked in public schools
[02:14] <dinda> which country?
[02:14] <youcanlinux> us
[02:14] <youcanlinux> in canada now
[02:14] <dinda> youcanlinux: it's bit off topic for the meeting but we can talk more after this meeting
[02:15] <youcanlinux> right. don't want to take away from the meeting, please proceed.
[02:15] <dinda> youcanlinux: the learning project is about trying to develop training for the ubuntu community using a moodle-hosted solution
[02:16] <dinda> so far, the team has a working Moodle install and severl eager folks starting to build courses. . .
[02:16] <dinda> earlier tonight there was a group helping the developers get the various roles and permissions sorted out on the server
[02:17] <dinda> on the mailing list there is also a discussion going on about various formats for developing the course materials
[02:18] <dinda> william chambers wrote our a great comparison of different options for developing the course materials
[02:19] <dinda> while I understand the need for standardization I worry that trying to force everyone into using one format may limit new contirbutors
[02:20] <cprofitt> dinda, I agree.
[02:20] <doctormo> Ah damn, forgot about the meeting
[02:21] <dinda> doctormo: heh!
[02:21] <dinda> doctormo: how did the session go earlier?
[02:22] <dinda> Vantrax: so where are we in terms of the server?  you said you've got some work to do on the theme?
[02:22] <BiosElement> dinda, I understand we will limit contributors some, but as I've said before, if they won't take a small amount of time to invest in learning how to format it, they won't last and if they do the work will most probably be poor.
[02:24] <Vantrax> dinda: you need to have standardisation to make thinks reasonably uniform in style
[02:24] <doctormo> dinda: Very well, you wanted updates on where things stand?
[02:25] <dinda> BiosElement:  if there is a content/QA team then that could help in making sure courses meet your standards
[02:25] <Vantrax> Theme is basically done, but links and some text need to be done, but the links require that the course structures are established
[02:25] <cprofitt> I think we may need style guidelines for facilitated, self-paced, etc
[02:25] <Vantrax> dinda: there was a plan for that in the structure somewhere
[02:25] <doctormo> cprofitt, Vantrax: there is still momentum, but it's been confined to me, pleia2 and BiosElement these past few weeks. It would be great to get either more people involved or all the board members contributing once their free time is back.
[02:25] <Vantrax> my time is back
[02:25] <Vantrax> well mostly
[02:25] <Vantrax> I still have a 3 week old
[02:25] <youcanlinux> dinda, I created an account at moodle.org. how do I contact you?
[02:26] <youcanlinux> I'm not feeling well, I need to get going.
[02:26] <dinda> youcanlinux: dinda@ubuntu.com
[02:26] <cprofitt> doctormo, I agree... I am almost done with the heavy part at work... and still have three kids
[02:26] <cprofitt> if I can find a 'natural' fit in a course I can do I would be willing to develop one
[02:27] <youcanlinux> thanks.
[02:27] <doctormo> Of course, I see the priorities as being a) formalise (which is mostly done I think) b) tool up (in progress, doctormo and bodi) c) build community and content.
[02:27] <dinda> cprofitt: i'm going to try to work with dougie richardson, formerly of the doc team on a short course for irc ops and/or contributing to the doc team
[02:28] <cprofitt> dinda, cool.
[02:28] <cprofitt> SO can we cover non-ubuntu stuff...
[02:28] <cprofitt> like Open Office, etc?
[02:28] <doctormo> cprofitt, Vantrax: I'm fairly certain that getting the style sheets of the moodle server finialised is a part of b)
[02:28] <dinda> cprofitt: don't see why not but there are other places that have such content
[02:28] <BiosElement> cprofitt, Open Office is ubuntu basically so I'd hope so
[02:29] <Vantrax> cprofitt: i would consider Open Office to be critical to using ubuntu...
[02:29] <doctormo> I'm working on the tools to make contributing as easy as falling on your face, all we gotta sort is tooling the publishing to moodle part.
[02:29] <cprofitt> dinda, I agree... but people looking to use Ubuntu may expect that content to be with us as well.
[02:29] <doctormo> then we can start c) I think, how does this sound as a plan?
[02:29] <Vantrax> that being said id rather not reinvent the wheel and reuse, repurpose, and retool existing materials
[02:30] <cprofitt> I agree... reference to wiki articles etc. do not need to be redone inside a Moodle course
[02:31] <cprofitt> doctormo, with your automation is it acceptable that people comfortable with building Moodle courses do so with the Moodle tools?
[02:31] <Vantrax> Then i think you have issues with style and content differences and the moodle install turns into a large collection of links
[02:31] <Vantrax> if a linked site goes offline the capability is gone
[02:32] <cprofitt> Vantrax, then the course would need to build the material in or change links
[02:32] <Vantrax> i would rather attempt to get permission to recreate materials in moodle source formats where possible in the long run
[02:32] <cprofitt> it is similar to using a book as a course material
[02:32] <cprofitt> it may become out of print
[02:32] <BiosElement> Possible Solution:
[02:32] <doctormo> cprofitt: The tools don't work with moodle yet, not even from bzr to moodle, let alone the other way round.
[02:33] <cprofitt> doctormo, but I know and am comfortable with building a course in Moodle... is that acceptable?
[02:33] <doctormo> cprofitt: We can always translate them for you
[02:33] <BiosElement> Why not just host the book at ourmoodle.com/books/course.html and run a cron to pull the bzr, turn it into html and post it every 24h. Then we just post a link to the book and have lessons link to the book sections when needed.
[02:33] <doctormo> Just like BiosElement said he would for people who devel in odf
[02:34] <cprofitt> translate them to waht?
[02:34] <doctormo> cprofitt: asciidocs in bzr/lp
[02:34] <cprofitt> if the courses are going to be published in Moodle why are we translating them?
[02:34] <BiosElement> Because a standard format is important
[02:34] <BiosElement> We can then offer easy ways to download/print courses
[02:34] <cprofitt> Is not Moodle a standard format?
[02:34] <doctormo> cprofitt: Because moodle isn't a good collaberative development platform, or a good translation service.
[02:34] <BiosElement> Not really, moodle is a moodle format >.>
[02:35] <cprofitt> ok... got ya on that part...
[02:35] <cprofitt> so all Moodle is really serving us as then is a publishing point
[02:36] <BiosElement> I think we should view moodle as a social platform
[02:36] <cprofitt> well... other Moodle users would be able to download Moodle courses and add them to their installation
[02:36] <BiosElement> Where we have the extra supplement stuff such as quizzes, teachers, etc.
[02:37] <BiosElement> cprofitt, That's a bad idea on so many levels >.>
[02:37] <Vantrax> BiosElement: they can, they are CC afterall
[02:37] <cprofitt> BiosElement, ? um... why?
[02:37] <dinda> BiosElement: ditto, was just going to point that out
[02:37] <doctormo> No sharing is good and the reason we license as we do
[02:38] <Vantrax> they do have to leave attribution to say where it all came from tho
[02:38] <BiosElement> Legally yes, but it'd be silly. It just splits content up, and the real users would not run a server just to install moodle and play with the docs.
[02:38] <doctormo> It's not important for us to consider the distribution effects, not when we don't yet have a solid workflow ourselves.
[02:38] <Vantrax> oh i see
[02:38] <Vantrax> BiosElement: he was talking about other people who teach using moodle, not our users per se
[02:39] <BiosElement> Vantrax, I kinda see what you mean but that's what the html doc would be for...a "book" for their students to read.
[02:39] <Vantrax> yeah, that too
[02:39] <doctormo> BiosElement: Say if a teacher at Harvard wants to use one of our courses, then he could import it into his internal, private moodle.
[02:39] <Vantrax> I think both are equally importaint depending how you plan on teaching
[02:39] <Vantrax> some would prefer to use printed material, some would rather use a moodle installation they have already
[02:39] <BiosElement> doctormo, Or he could link to a book .html file and be done without having to deal with the "fancy" details of importing a course.
[02:40] <doctormo> BiosElement: As you said, it's a social target as much as it is a course material portal. Just think about the class events I hope to be adding to the calendar.
[02:40] <Vantrax> Were about improving the uptake and availability of knowladge of Ubuntu and the FOSS world. If more people have that information that is a good thing
[02:40] <doctormo> BiosElement: But that's really their choice, or mistake to make. Not ours to prevent.
[02:41] <Vantrax> All the content will always contain links back to us, thats part of the CC Licencing.
[02:41] <cprofitt> BiosElement, many K-12 schools have Moodle installs
[02:41] <doctormo> We don't stop people having private debian archives, even though offical repositories are available.
[02:41] <cprofitt> if they adopt Ubuntu they may want to use our courses to assist with adoption of Moodle
[02:41] <BiosElement> Vantrax, I'm not about preventing people from using it, I'm just about not forcing people to install moodle just to read the course info.
[02:41] <cprofitt> they would want to take our courses but have their 'employees' become the faciliatators
[02:41] <Vantrax> Oh hell no, thats just an option
[02:41] <Vantrax> not  a requirement
[02:41] <doctormo> BiosElement: I'd block anything that required a full moodle install for viewing, that would be aweful.
[02:42] <cprofitt> and may add 'specifics' in their course that was not in ours
[02:42] <Vantrax> we want to have them active in OUR moodle installation, but allow people to take the materials away in a variety of formats
[02:42] <BiosElement> Well I'm not sure that courses made 100% in moodle 'can' be exported in a logical usable way without then inporting into another moodle install.
[02:42] <Vantrax> I see where your objection is, and that was never on the table as an option:P
[02:42] <BiosElement> haha, Well good.
[02:43] <Vantrax> BiosElement: the last plan I saw catered for printed teaching materias/workbooks as well
[02:43] <cprofitt> Yeah... I would not want to lock people in to Moodle
[02:43] <Vantrax> not in 'moodle' format but asciidoc or whatever it was
[02:43] <cprofitt> or lock material behind a Moodle wall
[02:43]  * Vantrax is still catching up somewhat
[02:43] <cprofitt> but if downloading and using our course helps adoption I am all for that
[02:44] <BiosElement> From just looking at moodle for 15 minutes, I don't think there's a way to export/backup moodle made docs in any format besides moodle's sql dumps and such
[02:44] <doctormo> It's asciidoc to docbook which gives pdf, html formats as outputs (and lots more)
[02:45] <dinda> BiosElement: you can also easily export/import from one Moodle server to another
[02:45] <dinda> i move courses amongst servers/instances all the time
[02:46] <BiosElement> dinda, Yes, but I don't want to have all the courses made via moodle and then stuck there so users can't download them. That's the only point I'm trying to make.
[02:46] <dinda> dunno some of it depends on what you want your final course to be. . .
[02:47] <doctormo> BiosElement: Don't worry, that's not where I would want it to go either.
[02:47] <dinda> if you just want a series of PDFs they can download, then why even use Moodle
[02:47] <doctormo> BiosElement: And so far it's not.
[02:47] <Vantrax> BiosElement: i think alot of other teaching CMS systems can import moodle formats now anyway as its an open standard
[02:47] <doctormo> dinda: It's a social, organisational and central hub system for materials.
[02:47] <dinda> if you want an instructor-led or self-paced course that takes advantage of moodle's functionality, then yes, use moodle
[02:48] <BiosElement> dinda, I think it would be wise to keep everything easy to download for a user. Offline use is very important for people like me with crappy wifi >.>
[02:48] <doctormo> dinda: The only thing we want to avoid is using moodle for development, but still being able to take advantage of moodle's excelent tools for organising classes, teachers and students.
[02:48] <Vantrax> I think we will have more self-paced than instructor lead
[02:48] <Vantrax> BiosElement: that is the point of the asciidoc files
[02:48]  * cprofitt nods at Vantrax 
[02:48] <dinda> all the quizzes, forums, etc can only be used within moodle
[02:49] <Vantrax> BiosElement: they are for offline work, or printed use in class environments with limited computing access
[02:49] <cprofitt> doctormo, but if we have people who are comfortable with Moodle development (read teachers) can we take their stuff and reverse it in to what you want?
[02:49] <cprofitt> dinda, that is what I thought as well...
[02:50] <doctormo> cprofitt: We should do that, but it's manual and once I've finished with the tools, it shouldn't be more dificult to do unmoodle updates. The problems will come from allowing moodle mods and having those mods destroyed by updates.
[02:51] <cprofitt> yeah...
[02:51] <cprofitt> I can see that.
[02:54] <Vantrax> these are some of the fun issues we have to decide on:P
[02:54] <doctormo> OK any last thoughts before the "meeting" is over?
[02:54] <Vantrax> Id like to see a structure of roles outlined this week
[02:55] <cprofitt> none from me...
[02:55] <Vantrax> and aligning that with the 'team' structure that bodhi was working on
[02:55] <cprofitt> this was fairly productive
[02:55] <cprofitt> sorry for being distracted by my NY Loco meeting
[02:55] <Vantrax> then we can get in and configure the site to start taking courses
[02:56] <doctormo> Vantrax: You saw the graph I made for the structure of a course data set, I could draw one up of bodi's and the groups thoughts on rolls.
[03:00] <Vantrax> that woul dbe nice
[03:01] <Vantrax> im going to do some more polishing on the theme
[03:02] <doctormo> Vantrax, wonderful, let me know if you need any help replacing some of those 8bit icons with some from the human theme
[03:02] <Vantrax> yeah, I want to:P
[03:02] <Vantrax> help would be great with that
[03:02] <BiosElement> http://andrewk.webfactional.com/asciidoc.php?sample_document=true
[03:03] <BiosElement> If anyone wants to play around with asciidoc
[03:03] <Vantrax> I really like the look of asciidoc, no image support tho
[03:04] <BiosElement> Yes there is
[03:04] <doctormo> Vantrax: The problem with that moodle site has always been getting a local instance set up. all the code is on launchpad now right?
[03:05] <Vantrax> ..not really
[03:05] <Vantrax> i just use bodhi's test server as i can ssh into it
[03:07] <doctormo> Vantrax: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-learning-moodle
[03:07] <Vantrax> yeah, i know its there
[03:07] <Vantrax> just dont commit to it
[03:08] <Vantrax> too annoying to use imo
[03:08] <doctormo> Vantrax: Oh go on, for me, as a personal favour? the code hosting for code that's in development?
[03:08] <Vantrax> ill see if i can get it sorted
[03:09] <Vantrax> im in the process of getting a ubuntu vm running at home so I can work wherever easily
[03:09] <doctormo> Vantrax: Excelent opertunity to only download code from the branch and then get it working on your VM :-D
[03:10] <Vantrax> ....
[03:10] <Vantrax> i was just going to replace whats up there with the new version then try and behave from there on:P
[03:10] <cprofitt> Vantrax, still has to get capaths working
[03:10] <cprofitt> :-)
[03:10] <Vantrax> shhh dont remind me
[03:10] <doctormo> Vantrax: No, that's the plan I had imagined.
[03:10] <Vantrax> the server weenies are still trying to verify that the trust relationship works by actually logging someone in:P
[03:10] <cprofitt> I personally think with the stuff I read today that your AD guys might not have the trust setup right
[03:11] <Vantrax> I do too, I told em so yesterday and they are still trying to prove it does:P
[03:11] <cprofitt> I think that they might, after much trying, decide to do a single tree with two domains
[03:14] <cprofitt> Vantrax, I never would have asked another sys admin to make his systems work with my servers if I had not verified the setup with my own systems
[03:14] <Vantrax> yeah, they just ran the internal verification
[03:14] <Vantrax> not an actual real world test
[03:15] <Vantrax> so im sitting here waiting to get Windows, Linux, and OSX working....
[03:15] <cprofitt> ascii docs looks interesting
[03:15]  * Vantrax is a kinda super sysadmin / SOE Developer
[03:15] <cprofitt> I help with OS X and Windows
[03:15] <doctormo> Gah, how can I view a folder full of small icon images... nautilus is still broken.
[03:15] <cprofitt> I have not joined a Linux client to AD yet
[03:16] <cprofitt> I got our OS X machines working after the previous two Apple Sys Admins failed
[03:16] <cprofitt> took me five days to have a working system as a proof of concept for the remaining Apple technicians who said it could not be done
[03:17] <cprofitt> we use OD for machine management via Work Group Manager
[03:17] <Vantrax> cprofitt: you dont have to join a machine to the domain to run authentication and file services through it
[03:17] <cprofitt> Vantrax, true
[03:17] <Vantrax> which is what im doing
[03:17] <cprofitt> I log in to file resources all the time w/o them
[03:17] <Vantrax> Mac and Linux dont really get any benefits from joining the domain
[03:17] <cprofitt> I think to get a Kerb ticket you need to join them
[03:18] <Vantrax> nope
[03:18] <Vantrax> you can just install the krb5 client and run kinit <username> and get a ticket
[03:18] <cprofitt> Hmm... I used the Directory Utility on the Mac to setup the AD stuff
[03:18] <cprofitt> and it joins...
[03:18] <Vantrax> then you can use krb5 with pam and do logins, or with samba to do file shares, or with ncpmount...
[03:18] <cprofitt> I can then use the AD groups to control administrative rights on the macs, get home directory information from AD, etc
[03:19] <Vantrax> can do that stuff through samba without joining. Thats how we are doing it to mount networked homes
[03:19] <cprofitt> You are running a script then to get the kerb ticket?
[03:21] <cprofitt> including reading AD for the users home directory path?
[03:21] <Vantrax> im actually having pam_krb5 get the ticket
[03:21] <Vantrax> so its all done via login
[03:21] <cprofitt> is pam_krb5 on a mac?
[03:22] <Vantrax> it can be installed im told, and you can install kerberos directly and hook it into the auth system
[03:22] <cprofitt> why not use their built-in system though?
[03:23] <Vantrax> so i can do it the same way on two systems:P
[03:23]  * Vantrax is lazy
[03:23] <cprofitt> k
[03:23] <Vantrax> also i can define inheritance manually which i dont think can be done
[03:23] <cprofitt> Being that I have not done it that way I used their built-in tool
[03:24] <Vantrax> yeah, the tool makes it reasonably easy, but you have to have the unsecured interface to AD active from what im told
[03:25] <cprofitt> unsecured interface?
[03:25] <cprofitt> I know very little about the Mac... so not sure what that is
[03:26] <Vantrax> thats the AD side
[03:26] <Vantrax> there are two ways of accessing the AD information to find out users/homes/DN etc
[03:26] <Vantrax> one is a secured interface, the other isnt
[03:27] <cprofitt> I do not think it uses the unsecured... but I would have to check
[03:27] <cprofitt> I am not aware of my AD being readable unless you are authenticated
[03:28] <Vantrax> Im still learning about all this, our test environment isnt even stable yet. Keeps getting pulled down to fix stuff, copy test user groups etc
[03:29] <cprofitt> well... if you find a link to OS X using an unsecured interface let me know
[03:29] <cprofitt> I always thought the machine needed a kerb ticket in order to be able to login.
[03:29] <cprofitt> I know that when I disable a computer object for a Windows or OS X PC users can no longer login to it using their AD login
[03:32] <cprofitt> http://gcmac.commons.gc.cuny.edu/2009/06/23/mac-os-x-and-active-directory/
[03:32] <cprofitt> we are basically using the 'golden triangle'
[03:34] <cprofitt> Vantrax, are you referring to the fact that you have to do this on the AD server
[03:34] <cprofitt> Find the item : Microsoft Network Server : Digitally sign communications (always) and set to disabled.
[03:35] <Vantrax> yeah, then its using the unsecured interface
[03:37] <cprofitt> from my understanding that only effects the bind request
[03:38] <cprofitt> nvr mind
[03:38] <cprofitt> different signing
[03:38] <cprofitt> the only one I have off on my domain controller is
[03:39] <cprofitt> LDAP server signing requirements
[03:39] <cprofitt> I actually have that setting enabled in my environment
[03:40] <cprofitt> so apparently with OS X 10.4/5, which we are running, that is not the case
[03:43] <cprofitt> Vantrax, I do not think that is a requirement based on my current settings for my domain controllers
[03:43] <Vantrax> cool
[03:44] <Vantrax> another think t ocheck into
[03:45] <cprofitt> YEP
[03:45] <cprofitt> sorry for caps
[03:50] <cprofitt> night all
[03:50] <doctormo> ta-ra luvs
[04:42] <pleia2> yay, looks like lots of great discussion today!
[04:42]  * pleia2 will have to read later
[05:21] <Vantrax> yeah pleia2
[05:21] <Vantrax> not so much from them, but they put us on the right path for our meeting to get some productive discussion done
[05:44] <ZachK18> hello
[05:51] <ZachK18> anybody here?
[06:41] <Vantrax> yes
[06:41] <Vantrax> someone is here...
[06:41] <Vantrax> ZachK18: most are probably sleeping
[06:41] <ZachK18> yeah
[06:45] <matthewlye> figured id get my name locked away:P
[06:48] <BiosElement> Just tested generating .po files with docbook sourse, easy enough.
[06:49] <BiosElement> Actually the edubuntu wiki claims it's a .pot file so I guess it may be
[06:50] <Vantrax> Yeah, i looked through the edubuntu wiki to find out what we could do to help them... LTSP courses look like the way to go
[06:51] <BiosElement> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/DocumentationTeam/Translation
[06:51] <BiosElement> ^Surprisingly useful
[06:55] <Vantrax> they do good docco
[06:56] <BiosElement> Ironically they use pure DocBook >.>
[07:07] <Vantrax> see you all tomorrow
[13:39] <ZachK18> hello
[16:43] <BiosElement> lmao, I've been looking into txt2tags versus AsciiDoc and I just found that they added txt2tags export to AsciiDoc back in March >.>
[16:47] <pleia2> hehe
[16:47] <BiosElement> Yeah. Granted txt2tags is too limited in the end, but still it's pretty cool.
[16:48] <BiosElement> +1 for any project that can export docs into like, 25 different formats >.>
[16:49] <pleia2> I'll have to read the backlog after work today, much discussion of formats last night?
[16:49] <BiosElement> Honestly, there was so much discussion/debate on things last night it was hard to keep track
[16:50] <doctormo> pleia2: There was a few things, it mostly centered around the problems of allowing courses to be edited in moodle, which would break workflow.
[16:50] <pleia2> hehe
[16:50] <pleia2> doctormo: ah, people want to do development within moodle?
[16:51] <doctormo> pleia2: cprofit is used to editing in moodle
[16:51] <pleia2> I think we need to clarify our intentions with this project
[16:51] <doctormo> pleia2: It's just a part of figuring out the whole process.
[16:51] <BiosElement> Well obviously people who already use moodle will want to use something they already know.
[16:51] <pleia2> as far as I'm concerned, moodle is just one of many platforms for course releasing
[16:51] <BiosElement> ^
[16:51] <pleia2> since we're doing live classes, irc classes, moodle...
[16:51] <doctormo> pleia2: +1
[16:53] <BiosElement> Another big hit on moodle: It makes it next to impossible to add a different js editor to it.
[16:55] <BiosElement> Actually the only way to change it is to patch the core files. And that's advice from one of the devs :S
[16:55] <pleia2> that's a sysadmin nightmare
[16:58] <BiosElement> Pretty much
[16:59] <BiosElement> "#  In moodle/lib/weblib.php replace the print_textarea function with the one provided. "
[16:59] <BiosElement> ^aka a core file >.< Yeah...I'm not going to even bother messing with it
[17:00] <pleia2> we ues the ubuntu package, it'll just get overwritten during upgrades
[17:00] <BiosElement> Even if we didn't use the ubuntu package it'd get overwritten the first time someone's in a hurry to upgrade.
[17:01] <pleia2> yeah
[17:02] <BiosElement> Now I remember why I hated moodle >.<
[17:11] <doctormo> BiosElement: I've not been too pleased with the way the styles work, normally a web devel will just hand over a working code base and a bunch of style sheets and we can have a play using firebug and stylish. But moodle doesn't use css well enough for that to work.
[17:12] <BiosElement> Yeah, I recall skinning styling being horrible. *mutters something about drupal being awesome* >.>
[17:17] <doctormo> BiosElement: The styling can only be as good as the project organisation and concerns when it comes to styles. I found for intance that in Kowa (library system) I had to devel my own simpler and easier to use templates for checking in/out books.
[21:40]  * ZachK18 is away: I'm busy...back later
[21:44] <pleia2> ZachK18: please don't use that here