| knome | night kwwii | 00:05 |
|---|---|---|
| mrmcq2u_ | new gdm rocks | 00:36 |
| mrmcq2u_ | :D | 00:36 |
| mrmcq2u_ | well done kwwii :D :P looks sweet :D | 00:37 |
| knome | hmm | 00:37 |
| mrmcq2u_ | knome - have you tried it yet? | 00:56 |
| knome | nope | 00:56 |
| mrmcq2u_ | it looks real nice :D | 00:56 |
| knome | and i'm not sure if i will - i use xubuntu | 00:56 |
| mrmcq2u_ | ah | 00:56 |
| knome | and actually, i'm one of the guys working for the gdm theme for xubuntu ;) | 00:57 |
| mrmcq2u_ | cool | 00:57 |
| knome | you are right, it's going to be cool | 00:57 |
| mrmcq2u_ | :) | 00:59 |
| mrmcq2u_ | is it similar to the ubuntu one? | 00:59 |
| knome | i can't remember if i have seen the ubuntu one, but i can definitely say it's going to be different | 01:00 |
| knome | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork/Karmic#Wallpaper | 01:00 |
| knome | something like that... | 01:00 |
| mrmcq2u_ | nice | 01:02 |
| mrmcq2u_ | the wallpaper sort of reminds me of fedora 11 | 01:02 |
| mrmcq2u_ | :) | 01:02 |
| knome | hmm. | 01:02 |
| knome | okay | 01:02 |
| mrmcq2u_ | not a bad thing | 01:03 |
| mrmcq2u_ | :D | 01:03 |
| knome | thanks then ;) | 01:03 |
| mrmcq2u_ | just the texture is similar | 01:03 |
| knome | yeah, maybe a bit | 01:03 |
| knome | the final image is going to differ from that a bit at least | 01:03 |
| knome | adding some more texture and putting some subtle highlights here and there | 01:04 |
| mrmcq2u_ | cool | 01:07 |
| knome | yeah.. i think so | 01:09 |
| knome | if only i had the time | 01:09 |
| zniavre | hello / bonjour | 08:02 |
| zniavre | i tried to setup gdm as kkwwi told us yesterday but it does not work | 08:04 |
| zniavre | does murrine set with rgba ON can 't work ? | 08:04 |
| zniavre | the metacity in gdm works only for the visual keyboard not for the main loginwindow right ? | 08:37 |
| kwwii | zniavre: ? | 09:37 |
| kwwii | zniavre: it should be themed (black and white) but the variables have to be set | 09:38 |
| zniavre | kwwii, ok im trying to understand how it works | 09:38 |
| kwwii | zniavre: currently in order to make it work you have to set 3 gconf keys in the ystem-wide defaults and then update everything | 09:39 |
| kwwii | it is not a normal process yet | 09:40 |
| zniavre | on wich window metacity must be displayed ? (login or visual , or both ) | 09:42 |
| kwwii | the gtk theme and metacity theme are both named HumanLogin | 09:43 |
| zniavre | yes i saw this | 09:43 |
| kwwii | I explained the process last night | 09:44 |
| zniavre | yes i tried it with succesfull for gtkrc | 09:44 |
| kwwii | then it should work for metacity as well | 09:45 |
| zniavre | but not on the login "stuff" | 09:45 |
| kwwii | hrm, you set the keys right? | 09:47 |
| zniavre | i modified cursor-theme and gtk they work well | 09:47 |
| zniavre | yes i set as you said yesterday night | 09:47 |
| kwwii | /apps/metacity/general/theme should be HumanLogin | 09:48 |
| kwwii | lol, last night I said there is 17 but there are two 16's instead | 09:48 |
| zniavre | yes | 09:49 |
| zniavre | :o) | 09:49 |
| mac_v | kwwii: the new human theme , is that the final version or...? | 09:58 |
| mac_v | could it be a bit more black and less brown ;) | 10:00 |
| kwwii | mac_v: I am expecting to tweak it a bit, depending on the feedback | 10:01 |
| kwwii | there is already one bug, so there are still changes coming | 10:01 |
| mac_v | \o/ | 10:01 |
| darkmatter | it's not bad. but unfortunately it's limited by that pile of crap called murrine ;P | 10:02 |
| * mac_v likes the human login theme better ;p | 10:02 | |
| mac_v | kwwii: why dont we use the human login theme , it looks good :) | 10:03 |
| * mac_v would like a blend of the human login style with the present human theme color | 10:05 | |
| mac_v | aahh the login theme is totalllllllllllly awesome | 10:08 |
| kwwii | mac_v: that is a pretty radical change | 10:08 |
| mac_v | yeah , but why not ;p ... | 10:09 |
| kwwii | mac_v: set the bg color a bit lighter (it is black currently) and it is pretty nice to use | 10:09 |
| darkmatter | mac_v: my face is totally awesome! they should base all the artwork on that! xD | 10:09 |
| mac_v | darkmatter: i dont think so ^ ;p | 10:09 |
| mac_v | kwwii: /apps/gwd/metacity_theme_active_opacity , setting this to 0.6 makes the theme look even better , you could use the transparency as the default for the login screen | 10:20 |
| mac_v | or maybe 0.7 | 10:20 |
| kwwii | mac_v: gdm does not run with compositing | 10:20 |
| mac_v | aw ;( | 10:20 |
| kwwii | if it works on your normal desktop, it could but it was a decision to make it work better on all computers | 10:20 |
| kwwii | the idea is to get to that point fast | 10:20 |
| kwwii | I don't need my login window to wobble :P | 10:20 |
| * darkmatter checks kwwii s temperature. yup. fever | 10:23 | |
| * darkmatter feeds gnome-shell to mac_v and watches him die a horrifyingly painful death | 10:31 | |
| thorwil | gnome-shell is poisonous? | 10:32 |
| darkmatter | thorwil: you doubt? :o | 10:34 |
| * mac_v isnt able to use gnome-shell , the driver fails | 10:35 | |
| thorwil | darkmatter: i havn't tried it, yet. from what i've seen, it suspiciously looks like going into another room to add something to your current room ... | 10:35 |
| mac_v | hehe ^ | 10:35 |
| darkmatter | thorwil: I find it yet another horrible example of 'bah... testing is for n00bs! we're developers! usability experts and interface designers be damned!' | 10:37 |
| kwwii | thorwil: morgen, did you see the wallpapers? | 10:38 |
| thorwil | kwwii: do you refer to Ivankas mail from wednesday? if so, yes | 10:39 |
| thorwil | darkmatter: i'm not sure, but i think there were ux people around when gnome-shell was conceived | 10:40 |
| kwwii | thorwil: no, I wondered whether you had seen the 19 that made it onto the CD :) | 10:41 |
| thorwil | kwwii: nope | 10:41 |
| darkmatter | thorwil. I've used gnome-shell and still do occasionally. if there were ux people they were obviously either drunk or stoned at the time... | 10:42 |
| thorwil | darkmatter: already tried to point out the flaws on their mailing list? i admit that i wouldn't expect much from that, but worth a try | 10:43 |
| * mac_v going to rip off kwwii's login theme and make a black theme usable as a system theme ;) | 10:43 | |
| darkmatter | thorwil: I gave up pointing out flaws to developers YEARS ago. total waste of energy and time | 10:44 |
| psyke83 | hey | 10:45 |
| kwwii | hi psyke83 | 10:46 |
| thorwil | darkmatter: my involvement led to changes in a few apps and there are developers who actively ask me for my opinion sometimes. so i have a different experience | 10:46 |
| darkmatter | thorwil: lucky you. | 10:47 |
| mac_v | kwwii: you made an almost functional black theme http://imagebin.ca/view/4pb0Eww.html ... you rock... | 10:47 |
| kwwii | well, it wasn't all my work ;) | 10:49 |
| kwwii | psyke83: hey, there is some bug about the new gtk...let me find it | 10:49 |
| psyke83 | ok | 10:49 |
| psyke83 | is it checkmarks being black in some apps? | 10:50 |
| kwwii | wow, looking through bugs is amazing...get this one: | 10:50 |
| kwwii | Metacity doesn't look Tango compliant | 10:50 |
| kwwii | bug #436066 Human theme vertical scroolbars have borders on maximized windows | 10:51 |
| thorwil | but what if tango doesn't look metacity compliant? ;) | 10:51 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 436066 in human-theme "Human theme vertical scroolbars have borders on maximized windows" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/436066 | 10:51 |
| darkmatter | lol? why does.. actually no... etf does a wm have to do with an icon design style? oO | 10:51 |
| kwwii | thorwil: more importantly what is tangacity is not mango compliant? | 10:51 |
| thorwil | kwwii: i guess that's about there being a gap between screen edge and active area of the scrollbar. that would be a valid concern | 10:52 |
| psyke83 | kwwii: yes, I'm aware of this bug. Changing the trough border to 0 will fix it | 10:52 |
| kwwii | Indeed, I am going to update my test machine now I think | 10:52 |
| thorwil | tangacity? round look with thin stripes? :) | 10:52 |
| psyke83 | I was hoping to get a hold of Andrea to see if he knew a way around this | 10:52 |
| psyke83 | (without removing the trough) | 10:53 |
| kwwii | no, it is a drab desaturated vertical gradient with a really thick line around the outside ;) | 10:53 |
| darkmatter | isn't that two thicklines, one white and one black, so that the deco looks equally cartoonish against light and dark backgrounds? :P | 10:55 |
| psyke83 | kwwii: http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/4594/trough0.png | 11:08 |
| psyke83 | that's with the trough set to 0, which would resolve the problem that you can't click on the scrollbar from the rightmost part of the screen | 11:08 |
| psyke83 | it loses some coherency, though - the scrollbar has sharp edges | 11:08 |
| kwwii | psyke83: yeah, I like the trough, but on a maximised window it causes problems | 11:09 |
| kwwii | which sucks | 11:09 |
| kwwii | I think we have gone back and forth on this one in the past. | 11:10 |
| psyke83 | no, we were thinking about going back and forth ;) | 11:10 |
| psyke83 | there was also a bug in firefox related to troughs, and asack asked for us to ship the theme with the trough at 2 to bring it to the mozilla dev's attention | 11:11 |
| psyke83 | that's fixed in the 3.6 alpha, dunno if it will be fixed for us in karmic | 11:12 |
| psyke83 | one thing we could do is set the global roundness to 0, to make everything se | 11:13 |
| psyke83 | *everything square | 11:13 |
| * mac_v now is a *huge* kwwii fan ;) | 11:14 | |
| * mac_v had been looking for a black theme for god knows how long.. this is almost close to what he was searching for \o/ | 11:14 | |
| kwwii | psyke83: hrm, I'm going to play with it a bit and see what I can come up with...I might change the metacity a bit as well | 11:15 |
| psyke83 | mac_v & kwwii: ironically, this is the theme that should have been called darkroom - it's like seeing a photo negative ;) | 11:15 |
| kwwii | mac_v: glad to have pleased you ;) | 11:15 |
| kwwii | hehe, no doubt | 11:16 |
| kwwii | but darkroom only became so brown due to someone elses wishes | 11:16 |
| mac_v | psyke83: hehe , ;) yeah | 11:16 |
| psyke83 | kwwii: I'll mess around with it as well and see if I can come up with something | 11:16 |
| mac_v | psyke83: are you going to make it as a theme? on its own? | 11:17 |
| kwwii | psyke83: killer, thanks | 11:17 |
| psyke83 | mac_v: in this case I'm talking about tweaking Human, not HumanLogin | 11:18 |
| mac_v | oh ok ;) | 11:18 |
| mac_v | kwwii: pls add the human login theme as an optional theme in the default install , this is amazingly good | 11:18 |
| mac_v | not for me well for others ;p | 11:18 |
| * mac_v should stay away from ubuntu+1 ... too many complains about the theme | 11:20 | |
| psyke83 | kwwii: on buttons, do you like when they have a noticeable centre gradient, or when they're smooth (like at the moment)? | 11:25 |
| * darkmatter really likes how there is no way to see what applications are running in gnome shell and how there is no way to switch between open apps/windows except alt-tab or overlay. halloooo? ass backwards, inaccessible and unusable much? (and btw. read the mailing lists. the devs *refuse* to change that)... | 11:25 | |
| darkmatter | /facepalm | 11:25 |
| darkmatter | I thought the future would be 'click less, do more' not 'click more, do squat'... silly me | 11:27 |
| mac_v | psyke83: you said photo negative... i remember.. once i tried to use the system like that , use the negative plugin from compiz ... didnt turn out well ;) | 11:27 |
| psyke83 | ;) | 11:28 |
| psyke83 | kwwii: take a look at the buttons, this is what I mean: http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/1844/sharpgradient.png | 11:33 |
| kwwii | psyke83: I like that gloss but only when it is just barely noticably | 11:43 |
| kwwii | noticable | 11:43 |
| psyke83 | ok | 11:43 |
| kwwii | but I also like rounded buttons | 11:43 |
| kwwii | I even thought about using the center glow or whatever it is called | 11:43 |
| darkmatter | the glow is actually ok. gloss is... eww | 11:44 |
| kwwii | psyke83: here's another bug: #435718 | 12:00 |
| kwwii | this one is a bit more interesting though | 12:00 |
| psyke83 | kwwii: that looks to be a problem with the app | 12:01 |
| psyke83 | it's the same for all themes I'm checking now | 12:02 |
| kwwii | psyke83: I wonder if webkit-gtk is so new that nobody knows which class to use to fix it | 12:13 |
| psyke83 | kwwii: no, because the human theme uses a universal roundness for all widgets. That means that the widget being rendered is not capable of being rounded, either because of gtk itself or the gtk engine | 12:15 |
| kwwii | psyke83: good answer :) thanks! | 12:16 |
| psyke83 | for example, in the past, the murrine engine couldn't round the treeview headers, but it can now | 12:16 |
| kwwii | lol, so after reading the bug correctly, the problem is that the one window is rounded when it should not be | 12:26 |
| kwwii | because the navigation tree view is not rounded | 12:27 |
| kwwii | psyke83: if we wanted to make that square, couldn't we add a definition for exactly that class with a murrine engine roundness=0? | 12:28 |
| psyke83 | kwwii: sure, it's easy | 12:29 |
| psyke83 | do you mean to match a whole class, or a class only in that app? | 12:29 |
| kwwii | psyke83: I mean a whole class | 12:29 |
| kwwii | so all of those things are square | 12:29 |
| kwwii | hoping that whatever that class is, it is only used next to a tree view :p | 12:29 |
| kwwii | maybe it would be better for them to do it in the app if possible | 12:30 |
| psyke83 | kwwii: yep, in the relevant style section you want to change. Just don't forget to embed the 'engine "murrine" { }' part | 12:30 |
| psyke83 | kwwii: the problem with gtk is that widgets embedded in widgets sometimes inherit the parent class | 12:30 |
| psyke83 | e.g. progressbars on the networkmanager applet | 12:30 |
| psyke83 | *networkmanager applet's meny | 12:31 |
| psyke83 | *menu :P | 12:31 |
| kwwii | yeah, what fun ;) | 12:31 |
| psyke83 | so if you put roundness = 0 only in the progressbar class, it may not work in network manager and other application where they embed progressbars | 12:31 |
| psyke83 | kwwii: the theme has one of these bugs right now: open gconf-editor and navigate to a key. The checkmarks are black | 12:32 |
| kwwii | ouch, yeah | 12:33 |
| kwwii | well, I going to see if this is a subclass which is easy to fix without screwing everythin else up | 12:33 |
| psyke83 | when I recently re-wrote the theme, my aim was to remove all those hacks. However, when you recently told me about the selection bg colour change, I re-added the "hack" to make checkmarks white | 12:34 |
| psyke83 | it can be fixed (and I think I fixed it in the darkroom/ubuntustudio theme before), I will look into it | 12:34 |
| kwwii | psyke83: cool, I am doing this bug and trying to work on the color of the scrollbars | 12:35 |
| * kwwii -> lunch | 12:43 | |
| zniavre | where i can see the output of gdm error if there is ? | 12:48 |
| zniavre | or gdm can 't use Murrine engine at all ? | 12:49 |
| zniavre | what i do not trust cause Human is murrine i think | 12:49 |
| psyke83 | kwwii: there's no chance of lightening the brown selection colour even a little bit> | 14:08 |
| psyke83 | ? | 14:08 |
| kwwii | psyke83: yes, there is a chance...we have two people looking into which color we should use | 14:10 |
| psyke83 | Cimi: hi, can you take a quick look at bug #422511 and tell me if it's possible to fix in your murrine engine? (i.e. let the trough part of the scrollbar respond to clicks) | 14:10 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 422511 in human-theme "problem with new scrollbar in Human theme - GtkRange::trough-border set to 2" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/422511 | 14:10 |
| psyke83 | kwwii: that's good to hear, because I think that either the selection or the background needs to be adjusted | 14:12 |
| psyke83 | I thought it was just my failing laptop screen (bad backlight, pinkish hue), but I checked the theme on my desktop monitor and it still looks too deep | 14:13 |
| Cimi | that is false dashua "The only detrimental effect is the loss of system-wide color theming to the scrollbars. Pixmap scrollbars scroll faster and smoother contrary to popular belief that the pixbuf-engine is slow." | 14:18 |
| psyke83 | Cimi: yes, I agree | 14:20 |
| Cimi | psyke83, I haven't understood that bug | 14:21 |
| psyke83 | Cimi, are you on Karmic right now? | 14:21 |
| Cimi | ok understood | 14:22 |
| Cimi | but can't be fixed | 14:22 |
| psyke83 | Cimi: perhaps in gtk itself? | 14:22 |
| Cimi | no | 14:23 |
| Cimi | is that firefox which is bugger? | 14:23 |
| Cimi | *d | 14:23 |
| psyke83 | Cimi: Firefox has another problem with trough borders in text boxes, but that's not related to this specific problem | 14:23 |
| psyke83 | the clicking problem affects all applications | 14:24 |
| Cimi | but with nautilus, if I click on the right edge | 14:24 |
| psyke83 | maximize any application which has a scrollbar present, move the mouse to the rightmost part of the screen, and try to click on the scrollbar | 14:24 |
| Cimi | it grabs the scrollbar | 14:24 |
| Cimi | here it grabs | 14:24 |
| psyke83 | if you're on Jaunty, it will work because the trough is set to 0 | 14:24 |
| Cimi | I am on karmic | 14:24 |
| Cimi | and it grabs | 14:24 |
| Cimi | only firefox doesn0t | 14:25 |
| psyke83 | just a min | 14:25 |
| psyke83 | hrm, yes | 14:26 |
| psyke83 | I thought that all applications had this problem | 14:26 |
| psyke83 | so I guess this is a case of Firefox's gtk "emulation" messing up somewhere? | 14:27 |
| Cimi | y | 14:28 |
| psyke83 | I hear that the 3.6 alpha fixes bug #327863, maybe as a side-effect the clicking problem will be gone | 14:28 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 327863 in gtk2-engines "non-zero GtkRange::trough-border value produces strange boxes in Firefox" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/327863 | 14:28 |
| psyke83 | I'll try a daily build and see | 14:28 |
| Cimi | I'm looking forward to midori and epiphany | 14:29 |
| Cyberkilla | Hello | 14:29 |
| Cyberkilla | I know I'm going to be punished for asking this, but... | 14:30 |
| Cyberkilla | Does anybody have any information pertaining to the final GDM theme in Ubuntu Karmic? | 14:30 |
| kwwii | it does not grab the scrollbar at the very right with the trough !=0 but it does make the scrollbar jump/move around | 14:31 |
| Cyberkilla | I can't find a damned thing about it, with the exception of the idle speculation and arguments in the Ubuntu forums. | 14:31 |
| kwwii | Cyberkilla: yes, it is the HumanLogin theme | 14:31 |
| Cimi | kwwii, yeah | 14:31 |
| kwwii | Cyberkilla: they are working on getting it set | 14:31 |
| kwwii | as it has to be done as user gdm | 14:31 |
| Cyberkilla | kwwii: Greatly appreciated, thanks. | 14:31 |
| kwwii | Cimi: hi, btw :) | 14:32 |
| Cimi | I have 5 days of holiday, I'm looking forware a murrine 0.91.0 :) | 14:32 |
| Cimi | hi kwwii | 14:32 |
| psyke83 | kwwii: yes, I it only jumps, can't grab the scrollbar | 14:32 |
| kwwii | psyke83: exactly | 14:32 |
| kwwii | hehe, holidays are for having fun...that's what you call fun?! | 14:33 |
| Cimi | no, but I already implemented cool things in git | 14:33 |
| Cimi | I just need few more hours | 14:33 |
| psyke83 | Cimi: the last commit is 10 days ago, you didn't push them yet? | 14:35 |
| kwwii | cool | 14:35 |
| Cimi | I am about to change the latest implementation | 14:35 |
| Cimi | I will add gradients for the borders too | 14:35 |
| knome | kwwii, until somebody pays me for doing whatever i want, holiday is for doing all kind of work ;) | 14:36 |
| Cimi | and maybe I will add more styles for the arrows | 14:36 |
| psyke83 | Cimi, that's awesome. I just hope that if your new version is stable, we can request a FFe for Karmic ;) | 14:37 |
| kwwii | knome: hehe, I know that feeling too | 14:39 |
| psyke83 | kwwii & Cimi: Firefox 3.6 fixes bug #327863 but bug #422511 hasn't changed | 14:39 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 327863 in gtk2-engines "non-zero GtkRange::trough-border value produces strange boxes in Firefox" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/327863 | 14:39 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 422511 in human-theme "problem with new scrollbar in Human theme - GtkRange::trough-border set to 2" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/422511 | 14:39 |
| kklimonda | are the new icons for volume and wifi the direction you (as in art guys) are going to take? Will you change all gnome-applet icons and all notification from default installation? | 14:39 |
| knome | kwwii, hmm. what was the right time to ask for the photo once again..? :) | 14:40 |
| === chaotic_ is now known as chaotic | ||
| kwwii | kklimonda: I was kinda amazed to see that they are in the humanity theme. they look very close to the ones I have in bzr | 14:40 |
| mac_v | kwwii: you made similar icons too :) | 14:41 |
| kklimonda | kwwii: so they are completely random and not a part of some bigger plan? :) | 14:43 |
| mac_v | kklimonda: actually , only the system icons are stylised and in greyscale , the app icons wont be done... since we cannot cover all apps , to fix this the notification area can be tweaked to desaturate the icons... similar to the UNR window list | 14:45 |
| mac_v | the UX team hasnt decide on the tweak yet :/ | 14:45 |
| kklimonda | mac_v: damn.. I was hoping for some kind of standardised look for notification area and I really like those new icons.. | 14:46 |
| psyke83 | kwwii: the only thing that concerns me is the volume icon. When it's muted, it looks like there is uncomfortable whitespace between the volume icon and network-manager. Maybe put a subtle X to indicate it's muted, or hollowed bars? | 14:46 |
| mac_v | kklimonda: glad you like them ;) , some have complained some raved.., but there are problems with doing app icons since these icons will be displayed in the apps too :( | 14:47 |
| mac_v | psyke83: hehe , i did that ;p | 14:48 |
| mac_v | is an X really essential? | 14:48 |
| psyke83 | mac_v: no, but just do something to alleviate the space | 14:48 |
| psyke83 | for example, when muted or at 0%, keep the speaker icon fully solid, but leave the three volume bars that are grey | 14:49 |
| kklimonda | mac_v: will you change at least bluetooth one? it looks really out of space right now.. well, now all icons look out of space but other are at least connected to programs and bluetooth one just sits there.. bluetooth and icon that shows up when files are copied in nautilus.. | 14:49 |
| psyke83 | *light grey | 14:49 |
| mac_v | psyke83: hmm... why i didnt add the X was because it wasnt being displayed properly ,ie not very sharp... | 14:49 |
| kwwii | psyke83: yes, people have reported that | 14:49 |
| mac_v | psyke83: i tried that , then we had complaints that the full and no signal were very similar | 14:50 |
| psyke83 | mac_v: what about changing the bars to waves? | 14:51 |
| psyke83 | (for the volume icon) | 14:51 |
| mac_v | psyke83: maybe i could increase the transparency even further | 14:51 |
| mac_v | that wont be sharp ;) | 14:51 |
| psyke83 | yes, the icon is so small... | 14:51 |
| mac_v | kklimonda: the bluetooth icon shows up in the system menu :/ , so we are really hoping the notification area is patched | 14:52 |
| psyke83 | mac_v: the problem is of context. If I were to look at the volume icon right now, while muted, I only know that it's semi-transparent because of the network manager icon with the full connection beside it | 14:52 |
| mac_v | psyke83: ah , i got an idea , doing one | 14:53 |
| psyke83 | however, a fully solid speaker icon with three transparent bars would show me that the volume is muted, and I would be sure without needing context from another icon | 14:53 |
| kklimonda | mac_v: isn't it a bug itself that the same icon is used for both notification area and other parts? | 14:53 |
| psyke83 | cool :) | 14:53 |
| kwwii | psyke83, anyone who cares: I'm tweaking the human theme colors so that a) the brown is less saturated and a slighty different hue | 14:54 |
| kwwii | b) the bg color is a bit darker and more saturated | 14:54 |
| mac_v | ^ \o/ | 14:54 |
| kwwii | and c) the scrollbars are more grey | 14:54 |
| mac_v | kklimonda: yup , but will the devs fix it because a single theme has decided to do a new style ;) | 14:54 |
| kwwii | and the panel icons are an open issue which I will discuss when the right people wake up | 14:54 |
| psyke83 | kwwii: if you can throw the gtkrc my way I'd appreciate it, or let me know the new colour definitions. I'd like to experiment with the button shading and gradients some more, and knowing the colours you're aiming for will help | 14:55 |
| kwwii | psyke83: will do...I should have an idea of what I want in a few minutes | 14:56 |
| kwwii | still working on gdm | 14:56 |
| psyke83 | great, thanks | 14:57 |
| mac_v | kwwii: the notification area tweak would be nice , DBO already has an idea , he just needs th go ahead from you guys :) | 14:59 |
| kwwii | mac_v: what is that? | 15:00 |
| mac_v | kwwii: notice in UNR window list the inactive window icon becomes desaturated and less opaque , DBO wrote that patch , i asked him if the same can be done for the notification area , he said it can be done.. | 15:01 |
| mac_v | we could just desaturate the notification area icons | 15:02 |
| mac_v | that would fix all apps using the area | 15:02 |
| kwwii | mac_v: but possibly ruin the look/use of some of the icons | 15:02 |
| mac_v | kwwii: all we need to do is to allow error icons to have the red color , | 15:03 |
| mac_v | i dont think the look would be lost , it would for window list | 15:03 |
| mac_v | it works for * | 15:03 |
| psyke83 | Cimi: going back to the scrollbar bug - let's ignore Firefox entirely. Speaking for all other applications, is there any way to allow the scrollbar itself be clickable with a >0 trough? | 15:05 |
| Cimi | I don't think so | 15:05 |
| Cimi | but with other applications work | 15:05 |
| Cimi | at least here it seems to work | 15:05 |
| psyke83 | Cimi: no, other apps don't work. When you click on the area beside the scrollbar itself, it treats the click as a page up/down (depending on the mouse position relative to the centre of the scrollbar) | 15:07 |
| psyke83 | ideally when you click in that area, it grabs the scrollbar itself (this is very useful for laptop users with touchpads) | 15:07 |
| psyke83 | sorry, the click is not relative to the scrollbar's centre | 15:08 |
| psyke83 | well the behaviour is unpredictable at the top or bottom of a page | 15:09 |
| mac_v | psyke83: could you pull from > $bzr branch lp:humanity and check if the volume mute is better? | 15:10 |
| psyke83 | mac_v: will do | 15:10 |
| psyke83 | mac_v: I'm not so sure. What about making the three dots the same size as the smallest bar for the other volume levels? | 15:22 |
| mac_v | psyke83: , i tried that , but the band was too thick :( | 15:23 |
| mac_v | hmm , i could make it a little bigger | 15:24 |
| psyke83 | mac_v: well, if it were, I, I would make it consistent with the other icons (a solid speaker and three semi-transparent bars) :) | 15:24 |
| psyke83 | *if it were me | 15:24 |
| psyke83 | oops, heh | 15:24 |
| psyke83 | I need to get more sleep ;) | 15:24 |
| mac_v | hehe , that doesnt work looks bad :/ | 15:30 |
| psyke83 | mac_v: another idea is that you can redesign the icon - change the volume indicator to a cone. 100% volume is a wide angle, and 0% is quite narrow | 15:39 |
| * ckontros waves | 15:40 | |
| mac_v | aw... :( , redoing it now is a bit difficult , but after the beta ;) | 15:41 |
| psyke83 | not an actual cone, but rather a cone shape... so if you have three bars, you could have it like this, with the three bars from left to right: 100% - 3px, 8px, 12px; 66% - 3 px, 6px, 8px; 33% - 3px, 4px, 6px | 15:42 |
| psyke83 | well I hope you get the idea | 15:43 |
| psyke83 | hey ckontros, I see you changed your nick :P | 15:43 |
| psyke83 | mac_v: so make it the same as it is now, but the angle reduces with the volume | 15:44 |
| mac_v | psyke83: oh , neat idea ;) but Dan doesnt want the shapes to change :( | 15:44 |
| ckontros | psyke83: Yep. Been wanting to do it for a while. Little more professional. | 15:44 |
| psyke83 | I forget, is Kontros originally a Greek or Slavic name? | 15:45 |
| ckontros | Polish or Czech. Never really found out for sure. | 15:46 |
| psyke83 | it's weird, I always associate it with Greek for some reason | 15:47 |
| ckontros | :) | 15:47 |
| psyke83 | maybe something I read in greek philosophy when I was in university ;P | 15:48 |
| ckontros | I'm a big mut in the end. Lots of folks, um, "havin' relations" with each other in my background. :P | 15:48 |
| psyke83 | aren't we all | 15:48 |
| psyke83 | ;) | 15:48 |
| psyke83 | there's no pure races anymore... the only eugenics programs that survived WW2 were in the Krufts dog show :P | 15:49 |
| ckontros | Seems so. Some tribal people left I suppose. | 15:49 |
| psyke83 | mac_v: who is Dan? | 15:49 |
| mac_v | psyke83: Daniel fore , he is the one who started the theme[and elementary] | 15:50 |
| psyke83 | as, I see | 15:50 |
| psyke83 | *ah | 15:50 |
| psyke83 | mac_v: what app do you use to edit icons? | 16:21 |
| mac_v | psyke83: inkscape | 16:27 |
| psyke83 | thanks | 16:28 |
| dashua | ckontros, Sup mate? Nice changes to Breathe :) | 17:04 |
| ckontros | dashua: Thanx to Daniel. We have some more things to work. I'm still settling back in N.C. but I'll get to it soon. | 17:05 |
| dashua | Definite improvement. | 17:05 |
| kwwii | for those not on the #dx channel: http://people.canonical.com/~njpatel/network-love.png? | 17:06 |
| dashua | The first set of edits were a little too saturated, but these are quite nice | 17:06 |
| * ckontros reminds himself to sync and test latest disks. | 17:07 | |
| kwwii | oopps wrong channel | 17:07 |
| dashua | kwwii, New nm-applet is nice | 17:07 |
| andreasn | too big icon? | 17:07 |
| njpatel | well, what does the icon mean? | 17:08 |
| njpatel | ethernet loves me? | 17:08 |
| kwwii | that icon makes absolutely no sense | 17:08 |
| andreasn | a star like firefox maybe? | 17:08 |
| kwwii | my wired network is my favorite? | 17:08 |
| kwwii | sure, it is faster...whatever is faster is my favorite | 17:09 |
| andreasn | is there some kind of hierarchy going on there? it looks slightly odd that active and the things below are intended to the right a bunch of pixels | 17:11 |
| dashua | ckontros, http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/25704/screenshot_QEGrd2.png | 17:11 |
| dashua | Just awesome. | 17:11 |
| ckontros | dashua: Pretty slick. :) | 17:12 |
| njpatel | andreasn: yep, it's meant to be like: | 17:12 |
| dashua | <3 Breathe | 17:12 |
| njpatel | [TYPE] | 17:12 |
| njpatel | __[ACTIVE] | 17:12 |
| njpatel | __[LIST] | 17:13 |
| njpatel | __[INACTIVE] | 17:13 |
| njpatel | __[LIST] | 17:13 |
| njpatel | weird | 17:13 |
| dashua | ckontros, What do you think about the grey scale panel icons for Breathe? | 17:13 |
| ckontros | dashua/kwwii: Isn't there still code needed for that? | 17:14 |
| dashua | Inherits Humanity too is nice. | 17:15 |
| dashua | ckontros, Not sure. | 17:16 |
| dashua | Oh wow. it's a major discussion about that now. | 17:19 |
| kwwii | hehe, I think the current grey scale icons need improvement (the humanity ones)...they are *way* too light | 17:23 |
| * kwwii gets dinner | 17:28 | |
| zniavre | im wondering why next/previous/pause/pause notification icons are made cause it does not work at all | 17:29 |
| zniavre | pause/play * | 17:29 |
| kwwii | zniavre: because the design is sometimes ahead of the code | 17:30 |
| zniavre | :o) they worked on jaunty alpha | 17:30 |
| ckontros | If someone needs me, PM. | 17:32 |
| kwwii | zniavre: then that means that the names were changed or the code no longer does what it was supposed ot | 17:52 |
| kwwii | or the funtionality was simply changed | 17:53 |
| natewiebe13 | being that the artwork deadline has passed.. does that mean gdm is going to stay as-is? (for karmic) | 17:58 |
| FLOZz | Hello all _o/ | 17:59 |
| mac_v | kwwii: the icons can be darkened ;) thats not a problem , they were made light because UNR guys asked for it to be light | 19:54 |
| mac_v | there is also a simple solution for UNR , make a panel icon theme only for Dark panels > name it Humanity Dark[or whatever] ... this theme will contain only the light panel icons which will be a very small size <0.2mb , include the inherits as humanity main... so when UNR uses the light icons it would work well for it | 19:57 |
| mac_v | kwwii: any decision on the panel icons? | 19:58 |
| mac_v | do you guys want it darker? | 19:58 |
| mrmcq2u_ | who created that new wallpaper with the stones in karmic? | 20:03 |
| zniavre | this one is really nice | 20:07 |
| kwwii | mac_v: I talked to david about it and I think he wants to put the human icons into humanity for karmic because there is not enough time to make sure that all the icons which appear in the panel are made with the new style | 20:08 |
| mac_v | kwwii: i was talking to david too! you guy are shuffling it around :( ... | 20:09 |
| mac_v | he said you wanted the human ions! | 20:09 |
| mac_v | icons* | 20:09 |
| kwwii | lol | 20:09 |
| kwwii | mac_v: when the decision to use humanity was made one day before beta freeze, I stopped feeling responsible for this | 20:10 |
| mac_v | kwwii: if the brightness is the issue we can just make them darekr | 20:10 |
| kwwii | mac_v: in any case, I would make them darker | 20:10 |
| mac_v | kwwii: yeah, i know... how you feel | 20:10 |
| kwwii | I do like the icons, they are *amazingly* similar to the panel icons I made for human but never used | 20:10 |
| mac_v | they were made light because UNR guys wante dit light! | 20:10 |
| mac_v | wanted it light | 20:11 |
| kwwii | I mean, I will still do whatever I can to make things as good as possible | 20:11 |
| kwwii | yeah, that is exactly what I thought | 20:11 |
| mac_v | kwwii: they wanted it even lighter | 20:11 |
| kwwii | with a dark panel they need to be lighter | 20:11 |
| mac_v | exactly | 20:11 |
| kwwii | but for a light panel they need to be dark | 20:11 |
| mac_v | thats why there needs to be 2 version | 20:11 |
| kwwii | I addressed this issue when I made my 2d panel icons | 20:11 |
| mac_v | vesions* | 20:11 |
| kwwii | I know | 20:11 |
| mac_v | kwwii: the simplest solution for all would be move the light icons to a separate package... | 20:13 |
| mac_v | kwwii: either way , how do we proceed now? | 20:13 |
| mac_v | kwwii: the sad part is ... david doesnt know about icons , and is not able to decide... pls take chage of this problem | 20:14 |
| mrmcq2u_ | nooooooooooo's | 20:14 |
| mrmcq2u_ | dont take the notification icons away :( | 20:14 |
| mrmcq2u_ | please :D | 20:14 |
| mac_v | mrmcq2u_: from backlog > there is also a simple solution for UNR , make a panel icon theme only for Dark panels > name it Humanity Dark[or whatever] ... this theme will contain only the light panel icons which will be a very small size <0.2mb , include the inherits as humanity main... so when UNR uses the light icons it would work well for it | 20:15 |
| kwwii | mac_v: for karmic, because we cannot change code, either a) all the necessary icons are made to satisfactory quality in the simple style or b) you move them for now into another package and use other ones (whether that is human or not is another issue) | 20:15 |
| kwwii | mac_v: that panel icon set would have to be on top of humanity | 20:15 |
| mac_v | kwwii: thats for the UNR version | 20:16 |
| kwwii | ie it would be the theme set in the system and then only fallback on humanity | 20:16 |
| kwwii | right | 20:16 |
| mac_v | Ubuntu can use the dark icons | 20:16 |
| mrmcq2u_ | well I am using a dark panel atm | 20:16 |
| kwwii | mrmcq2u_: then you could install the humanity-dark theme and use it, it would also point to the normal humanity set with the light icons | 20:16 |
| kwwii | erm dark | 20:16 |
| kwwii | boah, this can get confusing | 20:17 |
| mac_v | kwwii: its confusing for us but the end user wouldnt know ;) | 20:17 |
| mrmcq2u_ | the one issue I found was the messages applet, when I get a new message I think it would be great if it changed to completely white to highlight it | 20:17 |
| kwwii | mac_v: exactly | 20:17 |
| kwwii | I did not realize the problem when david was talking to me | 20:17 |
| mac_v | mrmcq2u_: just fixed that problem | 20:17 |
| mrmcq2u_ | kwwii - would humanity dark and humanity light come as default on karmic? | 20:18 |
| kwwii | when I did the unr icons originaly I wanted to use two sets | 20:18 |
| kwwii | mrmcq2u_: depending on the file size, yes | 20:18 |
| kwwii | it would be installable in any case | 20:18 |
| kwwii | they share the same repos to some extent | 20:18 |
| mac_v | kwwii: those icons are very small | 20:18 |
| kwwii | mac_v: right, but the disk is very full | 20:18 |
| kwwii | I imagine the extra kb's I saved in the wallpaper package would be enough | 20:19 |
| mac_v | let me just tell you exactly how much | 20:19 |
| kwwii | but I cannot promise that | 20:19 |
| kwwii | especially after beta freeze | 20:19 |
| kwwii | getting a new package included will be very hard | 20:19 |
| kwwii | any new package | 20:19 |
| mac_v | kwwii: <292.6kb! | 20:19 |
| mrmcq2u_ | would be nice if the panel could say, "hey I am dark use the dark set" and "hey I am light use the light set" dynamically, but then it wouldn't be the gnome panel we know and love :D | 20:19 |
| kwwii | and I cannot promise any space at all, pitti could | 20:20 |
| kwwii | mrmcq2u_: that is the plan for lucid | 20:20 |
| kwwii | I have been fighting for that for years | 20:20 |
| mrmcq2u_ | lolz, I have mentioned it several times also | 20:21 |
| kwwii | I made icons a long time ago for it ;) | 20:22 |
| mac_v | kwwii: how much is the size of the human icons? i bet they are bigger than humanity's ;) | 20:23 |
| mrmcq2u_ | color management is very difficult with gtk, I proposed that an abstraction layer was created which took the color hash code and abstracted it to more simpler color management(sort of like all of the hash codes in this string are diffferent shades of "blue", if one of these is used then use the blue template etc | 20:23 |
| mac_v | kwwii: i asked seb he says that space is no probs | 20:23 |
| mrmcq2u_ | kwwii - the new gdm gtk theme is nice by the way :D | 20:24 |
| kwwii | mac_v: no humanity is larger than human | 20:24 |
| kwwii | but I also removed the tangerine theme | 20:24 |
| mac_v | i meant the panel icons alone | 20:24 |
| kwwii | mrmcq2u_: thnx, it still needs icons | 20:24 |
| kwwii | mac_v: btw, that is something else...we have icons for the panel in gdm, they should go in humanity as well | 20:25 |
| mrmcq2u_ | kwwii is it possible to have the same panel layout in the mockups atm, instead of the three dropboxes? | 20:25 |
| kwwii | mrmcq2u_: I wish we could remove them but I don't have a developer who has time to do it | 20:25 |
| kwwii | also, I want to remove the computer icon | 20:26 |
| mac_v | kwwii: i didnt understand? | 20:26 |
| mrmcq2u_ | kwwii - theres always lucid | 20:26 |
| mac_v | about the panel^ | 20:26 |
| kwwii | mac_v: in gdm there is a panel with icons in it...mat already made icons for it (simple white ones) | 20:26 |
| kwwii | those will need to go in humanity I guess (if they are to be used) | 20:26 |
| kwwii | or again, we make a special set just for that and use it for gdm | 20:26 |
| kwwii | but the problem with making all these different sets is that they show up in the icon chooser capplet | 20:27 |
| mac_v | kwwii: if it is a dark panel , we can use the icons from the humanity dark version , no need extra icons | 20:27 |
| mrmcq2u_ | mac_v ->http://www.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?68f689f6cc.png | 20:28 |
| kwwii | mac_v: right, but mat has icons he wants to be used, they are in the mockup | 20:28 |
| kwwii | he said he would send them | 20:28 |
| mrmcq2u_ | the icons which kwwi wants to use are seen in the mockup here -> | 20:28 |
| mrmcq2u_ | http://d0od.blogspot.com/2009/09/karmic-gdm-design.html | 20:28 |
| mrmcq2u_ | god damn, i always either leave out an i or a w in your nick kwwii :D | 20:29 |
| kwwii | you should try typing my full name then :p | 20:29 |
| kwwii | Kenneth Wesley Wimer II | 20:29 |
| knome | kwwii, i always think your last name is wilmer :P | 20:30 |
| kwwii | lol | 20:30 |
| mrmcq2u_ | :D | 20:30 |
| kwwii | back in the day people always asked why my nick was K-World War II | 20:30 |
| knome | lol | 20:31 |
| kwwii | coming from the KDE community kinda helped that | 20:31 |
| mrmcq2u_ | Now that I think of it is ubuntu the first distro to use a custom theme with the new gdm | 20:31 |
| knome | kwwii, lol! | 20:32 |
| kwwii | I wonder if anyone knows that I am still a kde ev member and still work on kde | 20:32 |
| knome | well you can imagine how people is surprised that i don't use either kde or gnome ;) | 20:33 |
| mrmcq2u_ | hehehehe | 20:33 |
| kwwii | michael meeks tore me a new a**hole on the plane the other day for making oxygen (I killed Tango!) | 20:33 |
| knome | :P | 20:33 |
| mrmcq2u_ | :D | 20:34 |
| mrmcq2u_ | if the workspaces supported individual wallpapers you could almost make the new stones wallpaper into a panoramic one by turning the second workspace wallpaper upside down :D | 20:35 |
| mrmcq2u_ | actually you would need to flip it from the right side to the left | 20:38 |
| kwwii | interesting idea | 20:38 |
| mrmcq2u_ | extra polish without the need to create extra work :D :P lolz | 20:38 |
| mrmcq2u_ | I think there needs to be a humanity panel icon for bluetooth too | 20:45 |
| kwwii | mrmcq2u_: that is part of the problem | 20:46 |
| kwwii | it is not just about picking dark or light panel icons, but making sure that *all* icons which appear next to another are in the same style | 20:46 |
| mrmcq2u_ | kwwii - I think it would be ok if bluetooth icon was changed, in my view there shouldnt be any more icons in the notification area so it wouldn't matter | 20:47 |
| kwwii | mrmcq2u_: there are more icons that can appear there | 20:48 |
| kwwii | a lot more | 20:48 |
| kwwii | in lots of packages | 20:48 |
| kwwii | which are not in themes | 20:48 |
| kwwii | so it is hard to know where | 20:48 |
| mrmcq2u_ | kwwii-that can be worked on for lucid | 20:48 |
| mrmcq2u_ | kwwii- can you have different wallpapers for different workspaces in ubuntu yet, I saw a blog post saying it landed in gnome a long time ago? | 20:49 |
| kwwii | not sure, I never tried and am currently running windows to watch a movie (after jaunty alpha fscked my dvd drive it only works with windows :p) | 20:50 |
| * kwwii needs to buy and install a new dvd drive | 20:50 | |
| mrmcq2u_ | http://gsocblog.jsharpe.net/archives/15 | 20:51 |
| mrmcq2u_ | kwwii -> my drive seems borked too :( annoying when it takes about 3 hours to get it to boot a live cd :( | 20:52 |
| mac_v | kwwii: or... we make the panel icons dark and... we just dont use the icons for UNR ? | 20:52 |
| kwwii | ok, so let's talk about this in an orderly way....let me explain the choices | 20:52 |
| mac_v | sure | 20:52 |
| kwwii | a) we leave things as they are | 20:52 |
| kwwii | b) we make the panel icons darker and create a special set for UNR which is selected as the system default and falls back to humanity | 20:53 |
| kwwii | c) we incorporate the human panel icons into humanity | 20:53 |
| kwwii | oops, b) also means making all the missing icons for most people | 20:54 |
| kwwii | I run kmail and it puts an icon there as well, but I don't think we need to worry about cases like that | 20:54 |
| mac_v | as in app icons? | 20:54 |
| kwwii | yes | 20:54 |
| kwwii | well the icons that apps put in the system tray area | 20:54 |
| kwwii | anything on the top right should have the same style | 20:55 |
| djsiegel | kwwii: don't worry about app icons that go in the tray | 20:55 |
| djsiegel | no, not for Karmic, that is way out of scope | 20:55 |
| kwwii | djsiegel: the important apps would be easy | 20:55 |
| kwwii | the ones installed by default | 20:55 |
| djsiegel | kwwii: you sure? | 20:55 |
| djsiegel | easy for you? for Dan? | 20:55 |
| mac_v | kwwii: i would say, we just draw a line and say , only system icons are greyscale .... | 20:55 |
| kwwii | djsiegel: otherwise it will also look like crap on a default install | 20:55 |
| kwwii | rhthym box | 20:56 |
| kwwii | etc | 20:56 |
| mac_v | the rest are color , thats how win7 does it too ;) | 20:56 |
| kwwii | there are only a few | 20:56 |
| djsiegel | kwwii: yeah... I just think those icons are going to end up in other places | 20:56 |
| mac_v | ^ | 20:56 |
| mac_v | thats the problem^ | 20:56 |
| djsiegel | you will have a little gray RB icon somewhere | 20:56 |
| kwwii | and some of them could be made from the 2d icons I made for human | 20:56 |
| kwwii | djsiegel: good point | 20:56 |
| kwwii | well, in most cases it is just the app icon | 20:57 |
| kwwii | at 22x22 | 20:57 |
| kwwii | but that is shown in the menu as well | 20:57 |
| mac_v | yeah | 20:57 |
| kwwii | shit...I hate icons | 20:57 |
| djsiegel | haha | 20:57 |
| djsiegel | kwwii: let's aim for a panel-only-icons solution for Lucid | 20:57 |
| djsiegel | for karmic, let's just have light stencil indicators, a small set | 20:58 |
| kwwii | djsiegel: yeah, I guess that is the best solution for now | 20:58 |
| djsiegel | and apps that still put stuff up there will look wrong | 20:58 |
| mac_v | kwwii: lets stick to system icons for Karmic and find a solution in lucid | 20:58 |
| djsiegel | the app will look wrong, not the volume icon | 20:58 |
| kwwii | mac_v: lets work on the ones included in humanity now though...they could be much sexier | 20:58 |
| mac_v | ;) | 20:58 |
| kwwii | anything that causes a problem should not be used | 20:58 |
| djsiegel | kwwii: I kept asking Dan to consider a humanity-panel-dark and humanity-panel-light themes | 20:58 |
| djsiegel | if we could do that for Karmic, that would be great | 20:59 |
| kwwii | I'll hlp work on them this weeekend | 20:59 |
| djsiegel | use your status icos | 20:59 |
| djsiegel | icons | 20:59 |
| djsiegel | they are cleaner and nicer | 20:59 |
| kwwii | djsiegel: it would be really easy | 20:59 |
| djsiegel | etc | 20:59 |
| djsiegel | if it's easy,we should do that | 20:59 |
| mac_v | kwwii: djsiegel: Ubuntu was never on the table , so we were doing what the UNR guys were asking | 20:59 |
| djsiegel | the 1-theme-fits-dark-and-light panels will never work | 20:59 |
| djsiegel | mac_v: that's not what I consistently told Dan | 20:59 |
| kwwii | mac_v: unr will need the second theme to use lighter icons | 20:59 |
| mac_v | and then djsiegel dropped the bomb ;p | 20:59 |
| kwwii | it is that simple | 21:00 |
| kwwii | either that or we use human icons in humanity for the panel | 21:00 |
| djsiegel | I said over and over again that I was pushing for humanity in the desktop and Dan should not focus only on URN :) | 21:00 |
| kwwii | djsiegel: the problem was pushing it in one day before beta without testing | 21:00 |
| djsiegel | kwwii: we either need to stick with humanity now, as it sort of works on dark and light, or we need to use your forking approach | 21:00 |
| kwwii | sorry, but I will be honest...no hard feelings | 21:00 |
| djsiegel | kwwii: what do you mean without testing, it has been tested | 21:00 |
| kwwii | it kinda pissed me off to some extent | 21:01 |
| djsiegel | I've gotten about 50 people to try | 21:01 |
| mac_v | kwwii: i think for UNR w do all the crazy stuff > either not use the icons or replace it with HUman , ... lets fix humanity for Ubuntu | 21:01 |
| kwwii | djsiegel: apparently not, or we would not be having this dicsussion | 21:01 |
| djsiegel | kwwii: Well, I never thought it was perfect | 21:01 |
| djsiegel | apparently people want the panel icons darker | 21:01 |
| djsiegel | I admit, I want darker too | 21:01 |
| kwwii | djsiegel: again, it has more to do with the timing than the decision | 21:02 |
| djsiegel | yeah I suppose, it was so late | 21:02 |
| djsiegel | We should have gotten the boss to say yes a few weeks ago.. | 21:02 |
| mac_v | djsiegel: as i said , i was the one who made them light! :( , its was because UNR asked... and Dan told me to do it for unr | 21:02 |
| djsiegel | I guess Dan didn't believe we could get them on the desktop :) | 21:02 |
| mac_v | and Ubuntu was not going to use humanity :( | 21:02 |
| kwwii | that and the email from mark telling me it was ok that I put it in UNR, he can live with that, but I should not use it anywhere else :p | 21:03 |
| mrmcq2u_ | rhythmbox should not be in the notification area to begin with, the reason it is is because of lack of features in metacity, in my view you should just concentrate on system icons. | 21:03 |
| djsiegel | at the end of the day, I think people will really like the change | 21:03 |
| kwwii | mrmcq2u_: yes, all media players do that | 21:03 |
| kwwii | as do email apps | 21:03 |
| kwwii | well, we have the notification menu for evolution | 21:04 |
| djsiegel | no, email apps go in the messaging menu now, rgight? | 21:04 |
| kwwii | but anyway | 21:04 |
| kwwii | right | 21:04 |
| kwwii | ;) | 21:04 |
| kwwii | I say, just make them dark and sexy..test it to make sure no other apps put icons there in the default install and make a light theme with just the light versions of this called "humanity-dark" or such and set that is the default in UNR with a fall back to humanity | 21:05 |
| kwwii | it is either that or copy human icons into humanity | 21:05 |
| kwwii | teh simple style is the way forward, in my opinion | 21:06 |
| knome | nah, make it as complex as possible | 21:06 |
| kwwii | although the icons could use some refinement, we have until monday to change things | 21:06 |
| kwwii | :p | 21:06 |
| mac_v | kwwii: great... Ubuntu > darken them... for UNR its better we copy Human | 21:06 |
| knome | actually, we joked about creating an icon theme with *circles* only | 21:06 |
| mac_v | since Dust is not purely a dark theme | 21:06 |
| kwwii | mac_v: no! either or | 21:06 |
| kwwii | ahhh | 21:06 |
| knome | and it turned out to be quite powerful | 21:06 |
| kwwii | good point | 21:06 |
| kwwii | shit | 21:07 |
| kwwii | I give up | 21:07 |
| kwwii | copy the human icons into humanity for karmic and be done with it | 21:07 |
| kwwii | for both unr and the desktop | 21:07 |
| mac_v | kwwii: we can just branch upstream version > Humanity-UNR | 21:07 |
| kwwii | djsiegel: send you email :p in the end that is the only real solution | 21:07 |
| mac_v | with not icons | 21:07 |
| mac_v | with no* | 21:07 |
| kwwii | mac_v: you have to think about the possibility that the source repos/packages are the saem | 21:08 |
| kwwii | same | 21:08 |
| kwwii | install one app from ubuntu and you might change a lot more than you think | 21:08 |
| djsiegel | I was told Human icons can't go in UNR | 21:09 |
| djsiegel | because you can't see them on the dark panel | 21:09 |
| mac_v | djsiegel: yes | 21:09 |
| djsiegel | this situation with dark & light panels is so aggravating | 21:09 |
| mac_v | kwwii: that too^ | 21:09 |
| zniavre | why HumanLogin is using industrial engine ? | 21:10 |
| mac_v | UNR can only use the gnome icons | 21:10 |
| kwwii | zniavre: because it is fast and could do what I wanted | 21:10 |
| kwwii | zniavre: btw, your name is going in on monday | 21:10 |
| mac_v | thats why i suggested make UNR's panel light ;p | 21:11 |
| kwwii | djsiegel: ok, that is another factor then | 21:11 |
| zniavre | thank very much you kwwii | 21:11 |
| djsiegel | kwwii: there are too many factors | 21:11 |
| djsiegel | if we have to use just 1 icon theme, same on desktop and UNR, let's use Humanity as is | 21:11 |
| kwwii | djsiegel: no doubt | 21:11 |
| zniavre | i tried clearlooks instaed of industrial i have the feeling it much better | 21:11 |
| mrmcq2u_ | just create two versions, one for dark and one for light | 21:11 |
| djsiegel | if we can do a darker panel variation | 21:12 |
| djsiegel | if we can do darker panel icons on the desktop, we should | 21:12 |
| zniavre | i can't screenshot but you should have a try maybe ? | 21:12 |
| djsiegel | but I was told that is too difficult | 21:12 |
| mac_v | kwwii: what is the problem , previously only UNR used Humanity... now ubuntu will use humanity ... and UNR will use humanity-UNR... why would there be a confusion? | 21:12 |
| kwwii | djsiegel: we have more than one open bug about the visibility of the icons on the light colored panel of the desktop | 21:12 |
| mrmcq2u_ | The current humanity icons dont look bad on light or dark panels in my opinion too | 21:12 |
| djsiegel | kwwii: people are saying they cannot see them? | 21:13 |
| kwwii | djsiegel: they have complained that they are too light | 21:13 |
| mac_v | kwwii: > http://imagebin.ca/view/oFRenHr.html ;p | 21:13 |
| djsiegel | kwwii: yes, but are they just whining? | 21:13 |
| djsiegel | kwwii: I don't think they are so light to be unusable or even ugly | 21:13 |
| kwwii | no, they look similar to desaturated inactive widgets | 21:14 |
| djsiegel | I would like darker, but if people are saying "OMG I WANT HUMAN BACK" they may just be being dramatic | 21:14 |
| mrmcq2u_ | it does seem popular with people on ubuntu forums | 21:14 |
| djsiegel | kwwii: hmm | 21:14 |
| mrmcq2u_ | what about the good reviews of the new artwork thus far on the blogosphere | 21:14 |
| kwwii | we oculd do as mac_v and I have suggested before and have two different sets | 21:14 |
| kwwii | one for UNR and one for the desktop | 21:14 |
| djsiegel | yes, I think that is good, but the packaging gods said it would be too hard | 21:15 |
| djsiegel | if that is easy, I think we should | 21:15 |
| kwwii | oh, it is easy...I can do it | 21:15 |
| kwwii | but the icons need to be changed | 21:15 |
| djsiegel | mac_v and DanRabbit can do that quickly, I bet | 21:15 |
| kwwii | once the icons are changed it is almost a matter of a sed command | 21:15 |
| kwwii | I would help as well...I'd like to see some refinements to the current versions | 21:16 |
| mac_v | awesome , super kwwii to the rescue | 21:16 |
| djsiegel | kwwii: ok, Dan is coming in here | 21:16 |
| kwwii | one bad thing about using large sized svgs for small icons is that they tend to look blocky | 21:16 |
| dashua | mac_v, http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/25720/screenshot_003_wQZrQJ.png | 21:16 |
| dashua | Much clearer :) | 21:16 |
| djsiegel | kwwii: please make DanRabbit and mac_v do your bidding | 21:16 |
| kwwii | cool, I wondered why he wasn't until now | 21:16 |
| djsiegel | I will get these U1 icons to the U1 guys | 21:17 |
| mac_v | kwwii: DanRabbit is usually hanging out in ayatana | 21:17 |
| kwwii | ahhh | 21:17 |
| DanRabbit | I'm here | 21:17 |
| kwwii | hey | 21:17 |
| mac_v | dashua: i think we would loose those icons ;) so back them up | 21:18 |
| kwwii | I am heading out in a bit, 22:18 here..I do have something left of a social life :p | 21:18 |
| mac_v | dashua: i.e they would get lighter | 21:18 |
| mac_v | kwwii: sure... ping me later ;) | 21:18 |
| kwwii | DanRabbit: the idea so far is to make two versions of the panel icons, one light for UNR and one dark for the desktop...are you ok with that? | 21:18 |
| dashua | mac_v, =/ | 21:19 |
| kwwii | mac_v: there won't be any later where I am going :) | 21:19 |
| DanRabbit | Yea, mac_v and I have been asking about it ;) | 21:19 |
| dashua | I have a debian package made with them | 21:19 |
| kwwii | so we would have the humanity-dark theme for UNR and the humanity theme for the desktop | 21:19 |
| kwwii | -dark meaning it is meant for a dark theme and the panel icons are lighter | 21:19 |
| DanRabbit | right | 21:19 |
| mac_v | kwwii: ah , you are confusong again! | 21:20 |
| kwwii | dashua: you rock, any packaging help is greatly appreciated | 21:20 |
| mac_v | no icons in the dark theme ; | 21:20 |
| kwwii | mac_v: ??? what did I say wrong? | 21:20 |
| mac_v | kwwii: if we make them lighter , they will be lost in the windows | 21:20 |
| mac_v | for duat | 21:20 |
| mac_v | dust | 21:20 |
| mrmcq2u_ | mac_v - dark=light icons light=dark icons | 21:21 |
| kwwii | mac_v: duh, right | 21:21 |
| kwwii | boahhhhhhhh | 21:21 |
| mac_v | mrmcq2u_: dust is not a full dark theme thats the problem! | 21:21 |
| DanRabbit | hmm | 21:21 |
| mac_v | kwwii: we , just remove the icons from the Humanity dark | 21:21 |
| kwwii | mac_v: ok, so explain what I decided :p | 21:21 |
| kwwii | lol | 21:21 |
| DanRabbit | good point | 21:21 |
| mrmcq2u_ | people can figure out which one to use with their theme, they aren't idiots you know :D | 21:22 |
| dashua | kwwii, Not really fluent. Just grabbed Karmic's source, stole the debian dir, bumped the version, and built from trunk. | 21:22 |
| kwwii | mac_v: but there was a complaint that the colored icons are hard to see in the dark panel | 21:22 |
| dashua | Sure it's not proper | 21:22 |
| mrmcq2u_ | as long as the option exists for dark and light panels there should'nt be a problem | 21:22 |
| dashua | I would love to help though if needed | 21:22 |
| mac_v | kwwii: we remove the humanity's panel icons and let gnome handle those icons , | 21:22 |
| mac_v | that works well | 21:22 |
| kwwii | dashua: yeah, that is the best way to start..it really isn't that hard (and it won't build until you get all the pieces right!) | 21:22 |
| kwwii | mac_v: right, agreed | 21:22 |
| kwwii | djsiegel: ok with you? | 21:23 |
| djsiegel | I am having trouble following | 21:23 |
| djsiegel | can you summarize? | 21:23 |
| kwwii | yes | 21:23 |
| mac_v | djsiegel: Ubuntu = Humanity+its own panel icons | 21:23 |
| djsiegel | Just to raise spirits, if none of this works, despite what some bug reporters say, I think humanity is still great on the desktop as-is :) | 21:23 |
| djsiegel | yeah, perfect | 21:23 |
| djsiegel | UNR = current humanity | 21:23 |
| mac_v | UNR = Humanity - panel icons ;0 | 21:23 |
| djsiegel | right? | 21:23 |
| djsiegel | no panel icons? | 21:23 |
| mac_v | yeah | 21:23 |
| djsiegel | it will fall back to what, GNOME? | 21:24 |
| mac_v | yup | 21:24 |
| djsiegel | eww | 21:24 |
| kwwii | a) we make the current panel icons a darker , b) we remove them in the humanity-dark theme for UNR, letting those fall back to gnome | 21:24 |
| djsiegel | why? | 21:24 |
| kwwii | I do admit that it is the easiest solution | 21:24 |
| DanRabbit | because Dust is a hybrid theme | 21:24 |
| djsiegel | why can't Humanity stay as-is in UNR, the light icons look good on the dark panel | 21:24 |
| djsiegel | oh, ok | 21:24 |
| DanRabbit | it can't use monochrome icons | 21:24 |
| mac_v | djsiegel: UNR cant use human icons either , and making the icons lighter for UNR , will make them less visible in the apps | 21:24 |
| DanRabbit | right | 21:24 |
| kwwii | Dust will show the light icons in those network manager widgets you showed me earlier | 21:25 |
| djsiegel | So, UNR is getting Humanity with GNOME panel icons | 21:25 |
| djsiegel | Desktop is getting Humanity with darker icons | 21:25 |
| mac_v | yup | 21:25 |
| kwwii | right | 21:25 |
| DanRabbit | I need to make a Humanity GTK theme.... | 21:25 |
| djsiegel | and why is Humanity + GNOME panel > Humanity + Human panel | 21:25 |
| kwwii | it is the easiest solution so far, and all our UNR customers got something else anyway :p | 21:25 |
| mac_v | kwwii: UNR devs where any way asking for human icons ;) | 21:26 |
| djsiegel | last thing to do is make /sure/ this is feasible | 21:26 |
| djsiegel | packaging wise | 21:26 |
| kwwii | djsiegel: because one is dark and one is light...there is no way to make one set of icons for both | 21:26 |
| djsiegel | god I hate IRC | 21:26 |
| kwwii | djsiegel: it is easy, but we have to maintain two sets of icons | 21:26 |
| kwwii | djsiegel: yeah | 21:26 |
| djsiegel | kwwii: I am not worried about having two sets | 21:27 |
| kwwii | a call would solve this much faster | 21:27 |
| djsiegel | I am worried about it actually working | 21:27 |
| kwwii | djsiegel: at this point, neither am it | 21:27 |
| kwwii | ok it will work, that is not a problem | 21:27 |
| djsiegel | ok | 21:27 |
| djsiegel | I was *told* we have to use the same icon theme in both | 21:27 |
| djsiegel | so I don't know who to believe | 21:27 |
| djsiegel | but your solution sounds good, kwwii | 21:27 |
| mac_v | djsiegel: kwwii is the king ;p | 21:27 |
| djsiegel | darker icons on the desktop, great | 21:27 |
| knome | mac_v, no, sabdfl is the king | 21:28 |
| dashua | DanRabbit, bzr branch lp:~dashua/hanso/humanitytheme made a hack a few months ago | 21:28 |
| djsiegel | You can have a dictator and a king | 21:28 |
| knome | djsiegel, you can go say that to mark | 21:28 |
| knome | ;] | 21:28 |
| mac_v | knome: nope , not for black themes , he is not ;p kwwii rocks | 21:28 |
| knome | hmm | 21:28 |
| dashua | Not my best work, but it was a start | 21:28 |
| DanRabbit | hehe | 21:28 |
| djsiegel | knome, I like your nick :) | 21:28 |
| djsiegel | lol | 21:29 |
| mrmcq2u_ | maybe you guys need to set up an xmpp channel for this type of situation | 21:29 |
| djsiegel | I am breaking out from all this karmic stress | 21:29 |
| kwwii | djsiegel: who told you that? | 21:29 |
| knome | djsiegel, hah, thanks ;) i use xfce by the way ;]] | 21:29 |
| djsiegel | kwwii: I think lool | 21:29 |
| djsiegel | \ | 21:29 |
| kwwii | I can imagine that someone might have something against using two sets | 21:29 |
| mrmcq2u_ | then you could start a conference call for resolving confusion | 21:29 |
| kwwii | because they do not want to have to maintain them | 21:29 |
| kwwii | djsiegel: I will talk to lool and njpatel...we have until monday :D | 21:30 |
| mrmcq2u_ | well nobodies objected so far | 21:30 |
| djsiegel | kwwii: ok :) | 21:30 |
| knome | mrmcq2u_, i like that "so far" part | 21:30 |
| kwwii | one thing I did to make the lighter icons work better was to add a light and dark outline to them, making them seem inset | 21:30 |
| djsiegel | so, I bought Thriller the other day | 21:31 |
| djsiegel | and it's this special anniversary edition | 21:31 |
| djsiegel | it has remixes by Fergie and Kanye | 21:31 |
| mrmcq2u_ | http://digg.com/d315ZMz | 21:31 |
| djsiegel | Kanye and Fergie add nothing of value to MJ's work | 21:31 |
| mrmcq2u_ | "the notification area icons are now all uniform in color and theme which gives it a much more professional feel." | 21:31 |
| mrmcq2u_ | :D | 21:31 |
| djsiegel | mrmcq2u_: kwwii mac_v DanRabbit yes, people are really liking humanity | 21:32 |
| mac_v | hehe ;0 | 21:32 |
| kwwii | making the UI bg a bit darker and more saturated might make the difference as well | 21:32 |
| mac_v | djsiegel: dont worry , , there are haters too ;) | 21:32 |
| kwwii | DanRabbit: if possible, could you join this channl tomorrow as well? | 21:33 |
| DanRabbit | yea no problem | 21:33 |
| kwwii | cool | 21:33 |
| knome | mrmcq2u_, the desktop background reminds me of orange windows >__< | 21:33 |
| mrmcq2u_ | mac_v - are'nt there always haters | 21:33 |
| mrmcq2u_ | knome - I like the stones :D | 21:33 |
| kwwii | https://launchpad.net/human-panel-icons | 21:34 |
| * mac_v cant find these elusive wallpapers | 21:34 | |
| kwwii | 2008-1-30 | 21:34 |
| knome | mrmcq2u_, out of those pictures, i like the first or the grass the best | 21:34 |
| kwwii | mac_v: ? | 21:34 |
| pace_t_zulu | hey guys... just wanted to give you guys props for the 'humanity' theme... | 21:34 |
| kwwii | DanRabbit: ^-^ | 21:34 |
| mrmcq2u_ | like the grass and the stone ones the best | 21:34 |
| mrmcq2u_ | hahahahahahahahaha @ pace_t_zulu | 21:35 |
| mrmcq2u_ | what timing :D | 21:35 |
| pace_t_zulu | ? | 21:35 |
| kwwii | I am out for tonight | 21:35 |
| pace_t_zulu | mrmcq2u_: i don't understand | 21:35 |
| kwwii | https://launchpad.net/human-panel-icons | 21:35 |
| kwwii | 22:34 * mac_v cant find these elusive wallpapers | 21:35 |
| kwwii | 22:34 < kwwii> 2008-1-30 | 21:35 |
| kwwii | ahhhhhhhh | 21:35 |
| kwwii | sorry | 21:35 |
| mac_v | kwwii: i only have the space... i cant see any of them... | 21:36 |
| mac_v | maybe i missed an update | 21:36 |
| kwwii | sounds like it | 21:36 |
| mrmcq2u_ | pace_t_zulu - the humanity icons issues where just discussed | 21:36 |
| pace_t_zulu | mrmcq2u_: to what end? | 21:36 |
| DanRabbit | Kwwii: I always thought about doing an etched version ;) | 21:36 |
| kwwii | DanRabbit, mac_v, djsiegel that link to the panel icons has some idea for simpler icons | 21:36 |
| kwwii | DanRabbit: that might really help with the contrast issue | 21:37 |
| kwwii | DanRabbit: we should talk more tomorrow...I can help make/tweak any icons needed | 21:37 |
| mrmcq2u_ | pace_t_zulu -> the notification area icons visibility on light and dark themes | 21:37 |
| mac_v | ooh proprietary... /me scared ;p | 21:37 |
| DanRabbit | sounds good | 21:37 |
| DanRabbit | I'll be free mostly all morning :) | 21:37 |
| kwwii | cool, see you tomorrow..time for fun ;) | 21:37 |
| kwwii | great | 21:37 |
| mrmcq2u_ | have a good friday kwwii :D | 21:38 |
| mac_v | well it saturday here ;p | 21:38 |
| pace_t_zulu | i just realized the theme is still call human | 21:38 |
| djsiegel | I wish we hid the cursor at xsplash, kwwii | 21:39 |
| DanRabbit | yea, it seems silly to have a cursor that you can do nothing with ;) | 21:39 |
| * mrmcq2u_ ponders why update manager is trying to install pidgin on my system :S | 21:40 | |
| DanRabbit | it's good for you :D | 21:40 |
| djsiegel | mac_v DanRabbit, I am getting a missing icon in update-manager while it is running updates | 21:40 |
| DanRabbit | Yea, we don't know what it is | 21:41 |
| DanRabbit | it's not present in any theme anywhere | 21:41 |
| mac_v | djsiegel: that is a bug in the update manager | 21:41 |
| DanRabbit | a bug has been filed against update-manager | 21:41 |
| DanRabbit | ;) | 21:41 |
| djsiegel | saaaweeeet | 21:41 |
| kwwii | welcome the wonderful world of post freeze themeing issues | 21:42 |
| knome | haha | 21:42 |
| kwwii | where did it come from? where did it go? | 21:42 |
| mac_v | hehe | 21:42 |
| mac_v | kwwii: so will the human theme change to brown for Jaunty and older users too | 21:44 |
| kwwii | mac_v: yes | 21:46 |
| djsiegel | mac_v DanRabbit, any idea what is with the big heart icon in the nm-applet menu? | 21:51 |
| DanRabbit | screenshot? | 21:51 |
| mac_v | djsiegel: it is for favorites | 21:51 |
| DanRabbit | it's for how much I love networking | 21:51 |
| djsiegel | I thought Humanity has a star for that | 21:51 |
| DanRabbit | You want the star back? | 21:52 |
| * mac_v wants start back too | 21:52 | |
| mac_v | star* | 21:52 |
| DanRabbit | We'll have to fight Jonian with a stick... he'll keep changing it.. | 21:52 |
| mac_v | exactly! | 21:52 |
| djsiegel | DanRabbit: one sec | 21:53 |
| djsiegel | DanRabbit: http://imgur.com/P1HtS.png | 21:54 |
| DanRabbit | oh yea | 21:54 |
| DanRabbit | that's cute.. | 21:54 |
| DanRabbit | ;) | 21:54 |
| DanRabbit | I'll put the star back | 21:55 |
| Cimi | who poked me? | 21:55 |
| DanRabbit | CIMI | 21:55 |
| DanRabbit | When do we get rounded corners in menus | 21:55 |
| DanRabbit | ?? | 21:55 |
| DanRabbit | I will die waitig. | 21:55 |
| Cimi | never | 21:56 |
| DanRabbit | waiting* | 21:56 |
| DanRabbit | why?? | 21:56 |
| DanRabbit | Don't tell me it can't be done, cimi | 21:56 |
| DanRabbit | I know you can | 21:56 |
| DanRabbit | you are like god with GTK themes | 21:56 |
| Cimi | it already works | 21:56 |
| Cimi | but only with rgba | 21:56 |
| DanRabbit | okay, so how do I do it?? | 21:56 |
| Cimi | I can't explain now | 21:57 |
| zniavre | DanRabbit, http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Another+Gtk+RGBA+module+?content=100968 | 21:57 |
| DanRabbit | zniavre: can this work for menus in gnome? | 21:59 |
| DanRabbit | That's all I want ;) | 21:59 |
| zniavre | it works well with metacity and some gtk apps (not all) | 22:00 |
| zniavre | http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/2824/capture1xl.png | 22:00 |
| djsiegel | oh man, the cherries background got cropped | 22:07 |
| djsiegel | too bad | 22:07 |
| * DanRabbit ---> work | 23:18 | |
| KurtKraut | The artwork deadline was yesterday. How can I know the default artwork that has been choosed for Karmic? | 23:21 |
| knome | deadlines dp not always actually mean everything is finished. | 23:22 |
| knome | *dp=do | 23:23 |
| KurtKraut | knome, so the final artwork isn't decided yet? | 23:25 |
| knome | i suppose the current state resembles much what will be final, but i don't know about ubuntu that much. | 23:26 |
| knome | (i work for xubuntu) | 23:26 |
| KurtKraut | knome, oh, I see. | 23:27 |
| knome | KurtKraut, http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-Final-Artwork-of-Ubuntu-9-10-122665.shtml | 23:27 |
| KurtKraut | knome, thanks. | 23:28 |
| knome | searching google gives more results | 23:29 |
| knome | KurtKraut, http://www.andrewmlawrence.com/node/10 to see xsplash artwork | 23:29 |
| KurtKraut | knome, nice xsplash! | 23:29 |
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