[18:47] <Rocket2DMn> mdke, if I post a patch for bug 377039 this weekend, will it make it in before string freeze?
[18:47] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 377039 in ubuntu-docs "Firewall documentation is outdated" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/377039
[18:48] <Rocket2DMn> i have a patch ready to go, I'm just waiting for bodhi to review it before i post it
[18:53] <missaugustina> In tagging Docbook, is there a macros type thing for the Ubuntu download website?
[18:54] <missaugustina> I saw &ubuntu-web; for the Ubuntu website, is there something specific for the download site?
[18:54] <dhillon-v10> Rocket2DMn: hi what's up
[18:56] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: yep, subject to review
[18:56] <mdke> missaugustina: yes, we use entities, you should have a look in libs/global.ent for those
[18:59] <mdke> missaugustina: or libs/gnome-menus.ent for the menu entries
[18:59] <mdke> missaugustina: feel free to add an entry for usb-creator if not there already
[19:01] <Rocket2DMn> mdke, in the patch i put together, i included a couple links to community docs pages (like Gufw and UFW) since they have good documentation on using those tools, is that ok?
[19:01] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: sure
[19:01] <Rocket2DMn> i didnt want to explain UFW in the patch since it is command line, and the Gufw page has screenshtos
[19:02] <Rocket2DMn> hi dhillon-v10 , not much up here, what about you
 nothing really, waiting for Phil to show up, he was going to talk to me today :)
[19:08] <missaugustina> Great, I just have to add the entities and it will be tagged! I have been testing it in yelp to make sure my XML is correct. So far so good.
[19:08] <missaugustina> I do have a question about uploading the branch. I created a usb-creator branch under my username
[19:08] <Rocket2DMn> Do the sysadmins ever get to RT tickets?
[19:08] <missaugustina> I have been pushing just the single files to that branch without including the full ubuntu-docs stuff
[19:09] <missaugustina> I have another branch set up on my system labeled ubuntu-docs.usb-creator
[19:09] <missaugustina> Can I push that to my usb-creator branch?
[19:10] <missaugustina> I am still a little confused by bzr but I've used other version control systems before.
[19:14] <missaugustina> Also another question, should I be setting usb-creator up as a standalone article with an article info tag like about-ubuntu, or should I use a chapter tag?
[19:15] <dhillon-v10> philbull: what's up
[19:15] <philbull> hey dhillon-v10
[19:16] <dhillon-v10> finally got in touch with you
[19:17] <dhillon-v10> so should we get started the personas
[19:18] <philbull> sure
[19:18] <philbull> sorry I'm late, traffic
[19:19] <dhillon-v10> so I need to work on targetting my audience better
[19:19] <philbull> I think so, yes
[19:19] <philbull> you need to understand why people might be looking in the help
[19:19] <philbull> this was for gnome-display-manager, wasn't it?
[19:20] <dhillon-v10> yes, I tried to include dual monitoring but its about 5 pages long so it can't be condensed in 3 paras. I need help with that
[19:21] <philbull> what version of Ubuntu do you have installed?
[19:22] <dhillon-v10> 9.04
[19:22] <philbull> OK, I have some example docs which will only work with the version of Yelp installed with 9.10 (latest development)
[19:23] <dhillon-v10> I have 9.10 in a virtual machine
[19:23] <philbull> yay!
[19:23] <dhillon-v10> i can fire that up if its necessary
[19:23] <philbull> any chance you could download the tarball from here?
[19:23] <philbull> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-doc-list/2009-September/msg00053.html
[19:24] <philbull> (into the 9.10 VM)
[19:24] <dhillon-v10> alright, just a sec. thanks
[19:24] <philbull> also, did I send you a copy of some example personas?
[19:25] <mdke> missaugustina: yes, as an article. on the bzr question, the best thing would be to add it to an ubuntu-docs branch and push the whole thing up
 yes indeed I am looking at them
[19:26] <mdke> missaugustina: (to a new branch)
[19:28] <mdke> hey philbull
[19:28] <philbull> hey mdke
[19:28] <philbull> just going through some persona dev with dhillon-v10
 hey what's up
[19:28] <mdke> hi dhillon-v10
[19:28] <philbull> dhillon-v10: ok, did you take a look through the personas?
[19:29] <dhillon-v10> yes, I did but i am a little confused
[19:29] <philbull> OK, what are you confused about?
[19:30] <dhillon-v10> dual monitoring is popping up a lot but I can't possibly explain it in a few paragraphs
[19:30] <philbull> that's normal
[19:30] <philbull> what you're seeing is that dual-monitoring is a "theme" rather than one topic
[19:30] <philbull> lots of people are having lots of dual-monitoring problems
[19:31] <dhillon-v10> so, how should I got about including that in
[19:31] <philbull> well, let's start off with the most common questions
[19:31] <dhillon-v10> alright
[19:31] <philbull> did you collect a list of common dual-monitor (DM) questions?
[19:32] <dhillon-v10> most people actually don't know how to set it up, that's why i addressed it in general
[19:32] <philbull> do you have an example of a user asking that question?
[19:32] <dhillon-v10> the question were regarding monitors not being detected
[19:32] <dhillon-v10> just a sec.
[19:33] <philbull> it's important to see how users are phrasing the question
[19:33] <dhillon-v10> here's one: hmmm, i had a similar problem, but i have an nvidia card and bypassed the ubuntu control panel and used the nvidia control panel directly to force it to work with my dual monitors (which were displaying at an improper resolution like yours). but since you're running ATI, i'm not sure how to help you. i suspect you'd have to go in and fiddle with the xorg config files manually
[19:34] <philbull> that's not really phrased as a question, more as advice
[19:34] <philbull> do you have a simpler example, phrased more like a question?
[19:34] <philbull> e.g. "i can't get both of my monitors to work"
[19:35] <dhillon-v10> does anybody have display problems with intel graphics and dual monitors? i can't access the top panel on my left screen, and the wallpaper on my right screen is not displayed properly
[19:35] <philbull> ok, and another one or two?
[19:37] <dhillon-v10> just a sec. something unexpected poped up, sorry
[19:39] <dhillon-v10> phil, I am really sorry but I have to go, can we talk about this sometime later or you can send me some general instructions in mail
[19:40] <philbull> no problem, how is some time in the week for you?
[19:40] <philbull> I'll try to come up with something a bit more organised next time
[19:40] <philbull> (just drop me an email)
 thank you very much and sorry for wasting your time, next saturday will be fine
[19:45] <philbull> dhillon-v10: no problem, not a waste of time at all!
[19:46] <dhillon-v10> thanks bye
[20:22] <missaugustina> I'm pushing my branch of ubuntu-docs with the usb-creator docs added in, and the entity entry added for usb-creator
[20:22] <missaugustina> The branch is lp:~missaugustina/ubuntu-docs/usb-creator
[20:27] <Rocket2DMn> I think bug 138288 can be closed - the pag ein question is linked from the front page of the community docs
[20:27] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 138288 in ubuntu-docs "Eye Candy page not easily accessible" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/138288
[20:27] <Rocket2DMn> mdke, what do you think?
[20:27] <Rocket2DMn> or do we want links to it from inside the system docs?
[20:34] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: I agree. The general point in the bug about the separation between h.u.c and h.u.c/c is something for a spec, I'd say
[20:34] <mdke> missaugustina: great, thanks - I'll take a look shortly
[20:34] <missaugustina> its still pushing
[20:34] <Rocket2DMn> ok mdke , you want to close it or shall I?  Fix Released?
[20:35] <mdke> missaugustina: cool
[20:35] <missaugustina> I decided to do a push --overwrite to my branch and it's still working
[20:35] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: I'll do it, I think it's a "won't fix"
[20:36] <Rocket2DMn> ok, thanks mdke
[20:39] <missaugustina> nm it hung so i ctl-c'ed out of it. now trying to break the lock on it.
[20:40] <missaugustina> I did a merge from the ubuntu-doc branch to make sure my stuff was current and now bzr is hanging when trying to push
[20:41] <missaugustina> I should just delete my branch and re-create it
[20:47] <missaugustina> ok did that now its updating
[21:11] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: can you run the validate script from our repo on the newtoubuntu file that gives you a problem?
[21:11] <mdke> seems ok in our repo
[21:11] <Rocket2DMn> you mean the bug i just filed against gnome-user-docs?
[21:12] <mdke> yes (it's actually an ubuntu-docs file)
[21:12] <Rocket2DMn> ah, oops, it was in the foo/bar/gnome path
[21:12] <mdke> they all are :)
[21:12] <Rocket2DMn> what do you mean from the repo?
[21:13] <mdke> scripts/validate.sh
[21:13] <mdke> or just the command "xmllint --noout --xinclude --noent --postvalid"
[21:13] <mdke> (followed by the path to the file)
[21:14] <Rocket2DMn> i booted off the livecd on the laptop, do you want me to boot back into it? or just test in my local copy of the ubuntu-docs dev branch on my desktop here?
[21:15] <mdke> if we are to debug the bug, you need to try the livecd again, sorry
[21:15] <Rocket2DMn> ok ill reboot it now, np, that laptop is used for dev testing
[21:16] <mdke> thanks
[21:17] <mdke> seems to work ok in my vbox with karmic
[21:19] <missaugustina> I am not sure if my workflow in bzr is correct. I created a branch from the ubuntu-doc karmic branch. I added the usb-creator stuff and pushed that branch to the one I created under my username in Launchpad.
[21:19] <missaugustina> https://code.launchpad.net/~missaugustina/ubuntu-docs/usb-creator
[21:19] <mdke> missaugustina: I don't think it is, I'm just trying to merge your branch and am having some trouble
[21:19] <missaugustina> Everything is up there including the revision history for ubuntu-docs
[21:19] <mdke> missaugustina: what seems to have happened is that you got the wrong ubuntu-doc karmic branch, unfortunately
[21:19] <missaugustina> Yarr
[21:20] <missaugustina> Which karmic branch do i need to get?
[21:20] <mdke> you got lp:ubuntu/ubuntu-docs rather than lp:ubuntu-docs
[21:20] <mdke> it's not your fault at all
[21:20] <missaugustina> ohhh ok
[21:20] <mdke> unfortunately, the former one was created by the people working on importing ubuntu source packages in bzr
[21:20] <missaugustina> np i will try again. Is that the right workflow?
[21:20] <mdke> so it's rather confusing, nothing you could be blamed for
[21:21] <mdke> everything we use is at code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc-project
[21:21] <Rocket2DMn> mdke, it seems that I'm not able to reproduce the problem on this boot into the livecd.  I was able to reproduce it during my last session
[21:21] <mdke> missaugustina: yes, the workflow is exactly right
[21:21] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: weird
[21:22] <missaugustina> mdke: awesome. Should my branch be ~missaugustina/ubuntu-docs/usb-creator or ~missaugustina/ubuntu-doc-project/usb-creator
[21:24] <Rocket2DMn> mdke, problem with squashfs not setting up the filesystem correctly?
[21:24] <mdke> missaugustina: the former
[21:24] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: possibly but I have no idea how that works
[21:24] <Rocket2DMn> me neither
[21:24] <mdke> missaugustina: FWIW you can push directly to that location without setting it up in the web browser first
[21:25] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: I'd say close the bug unless you can reproduce it again, the file is ok in karmic
[21:25] <Rocket2DMn> k
[21:30] <missaugustina> mdke: I don't have to do the "Register a branch" dialogue to push my changes?
[21:30] <mdke> missaugustina: nope, just "bzr push lp:~missaugustina/etc"
[21:31] <mdke> missaugustina: but in this case, delete the existing branch first through the web interface
[21:33] <missaugustina> mdke: yeah I already deleted it. wow that's good to know!
[21:33] <mdke> :)
[21:35] <Rocket2DMn> mdke, any idea if bug 118741 was ever implemented?
[21:35] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 118741 in ubuntu-docs "External links in stable docs should be under Ubuntu control" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/118741
[21:35] <Rocket2DMn> i dont see anything on the spec to think that it has
[21:35] <mdke> no, don't think so
[21:35] <mdke> I was never really convinced by it
[21:36] <Rocket2DMn> I can see the argument behind it, I'm also not sure if there is worth implementing though.  If a link is broken, it's broken.
[21:37] <Rocket2DMn> implementing it could mean that you could block a site from showing though, say if it become a porn site like we saw earlier.
[21:38] <mdke> yeah, but I'm not convinced that the end result justified the work involved
[21:38] <Rocket2DMn> would be less useful on the h.u.c version of the syste mdocs though, people would complain about redirecting links and not being able to see where the link actually goes
[21:38] <Rocket2DMn> mdke, do you still want to keep the bug open?
[21:39] <mdke> hum
[21:40] <mdke> guess not, I'll post there shortly
[21:42] <Rocket2DMn> mdke, I'm also looking at bug 139246.  Are we planning on updating anythin gin the system docs for that?  We can still try to update the community docs, I'm mostly curious about the sys doc side of it
[21:42] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 139246 in ubuntu-docs "Suspend help files are outdated" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/139246
[21:42] <missaugustina> OK got the right branch dl'ed and am now pushing to my branch lp:~missaugustina/ubuntu-docs/usb-creator
[21:47] <missaugustina> mdke: ok it's been pushed
[21:58] <mdke> missaugustina: great, I'll check it out probably tomorrow
[21:58] <mdke> thanks
[21:58] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: I don't see how that can go in the system docs
[21:59] <missaugustina> mdke: awesome, feel free to offer any suggestions or make any changes to the XML. I just want to make sure what I'm submitting is consistent with what's there :D
[22:01] <Rocket2DMn> agreed mdke , do you want to keep the bug open for the wiki pages (which are tagged)?
[22:02] <Rocket2DMn> I dont really have any opinion about it, we do allow bug reports on community docs pages.  Is anything going to change now that we have the Tag system?
[22:02] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: up to you
[22:04] <Rocket2DMn> ok, I guess we'll leave it open until we can centralize some decent documentation on suspend/resume
[22:04] <Rocket2DMn> at least something to tie in with the kernel team's pages on it
[22:08] <mdke> fair enough
[22:11] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: thanks for catching up on some of these aged bugs :)
[22:21] <mdke> missaugustina: something for you to work on if you like as a "get used to docbook test"
[22:21] <mdke> missaugustina: if you run "scripts/validate.sh usb-creator/C/usb-creator.xml" you will be shown some errors in the docbook
[22:22] <mdke> missaugustina: understanding them is the tricky bit...
[22:22] <mdke> missaugustina: each error tells you the line number in the xml which has a problem
[22:23] <mdke> missaugustina: the good news is that most of the problems have the same cause - you need to nest a <para> tag inside a <listitem> tag
[22:24] <missaugustina> mdke: oh ok, forgot to validate. I opened them in Yelp to make sure they displayed correctly and thought that's all I needed to do.
[22:29] <mdke> sorry, computer crashed, now back
[22:29] <mdke> missaugustina: yelp is a bit kinder, it displays invalid docbook too
[22:29] <mdke> missaugustina: the good news is that most of the problems have the same cause - you need to nest a <para> tag inside a <listitem> tag
[22:31] <mdke> the error message looks horrible but it's nice and simple in the end
[22:33] <missaugustina> yeah I'm trying to output the results to a file so I can read it
[22:33] <missaugustina> adding --output FILE to the xmllint command isn't working nor is > FILE
[22:34] <mdke> once you've been through and added <para> tags to all the listitem tags, then there are only like 3 errors or so
[22:34] <mdke> not sure why the pipe doesn't work I'm afraid
[22:36] <missaugustina> > output_file 2>&1
[22:36] <missaugustina> that works
[22:37] <mdke> ok, your command line skills are way better than mine :)
[22:37] <missaugustina> nah i just googled it ;)
[22:38] <missaugustina> I hoped the sh script and saw it was calling xmllint so looked at the man page which showed an arg --output FILE but that was working for some reason
[22:38] <missaugustina> *opened, not hoped
[22:38] <missaugustina> wasn't working
[22:46] <missaugustina> Fixing those things now.
[22:46] <mdke> awesome
[22:55] <missaugustina> fixed.
[22:55] <missaugustina> pushing changes now
[22:55] <missaugustina> re-ran xmllint and it validated
[22:56] <missaugustina> well, didn't have any output so I assume that means it validated ;)
[22:56] <mdke> yes
[22:56] <mdke> good job :)
[22:56] <XDevHald> Hey everyone, I was guided here from the wiki page so I can re-join the documentation page. Are there any openings?
[22:57] <mdke> XDevHald: we have infinite openings!!
[22:57] <mdke> all contributions are welcomed
[22:57] <XDevHald> Excellent. I have been in the group before about 3 years ago, so this should be fun.
[22:57] <XDevHald> What's the initial project?
[22:58] <mdke> have you changed your nick?
[22:58] <mdke> maybe I'd remember you
[22:58] <XDevHald> I sure have, first name and last is Steven Myers
[22:59]  * mdke searches his memory banks
[23:06] <mdke> XDevHald: ok so our team documentation is all at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam - hopefully there is enough material to get you started and find a task you are interested on
[23:09] <XDevHald> Found my dirt mound. Thanks Matt :-)
[23:10] <mdke> no worries
[23:18] <mdke> missaugustina: looking very good
[23:19] <j1mc> hi mdke
[23:19] <mdke> j1mc: hi!
[23:20] <j1mc> :)
[23:20] <j1mc> i'm committing some Xubuntu doc stuff today.
[23:20] <j1mc> not a lot of changes this go-round, but . . . at least some updates
[23:20] <j1mc> i'll be reviewing the Ubuntu docs for applicable changes, too.
[23:20] <mdke> missaugustina: I'm going to make a few small tweaks if that is ok, but nothing much. One point to raise with you is that you refer to the app as "USB Creator" throughout. Shouldn't it be called "USB Startup Disk Creator" as with the menu entry?
[23:21] <mdke> j1mc: great stuff
[23:23] <missaugustina> mdke: you are right, the package is called usb-creator which is why I called it that.
[23:23] <mdke> missaugustina: you can mark your branch as "merged" now btw, awesome :)
[23:23] <missaugustina> mdke: OK thx :D
[23:24] <mdke> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/ubuntu-karmic/revision/351 :)
[23:24] <missaugustina> yay! Yeah it's already labeled as merged. Sweet!
[23:25] <missaugustina> Now to finish up my Install Guide Docs and then finish editing the Packaging Guide
[23:26] <mdke> is the install guide going ahead?
[23:27] <mdke> I haven't heard anything about it on the mailing list
[23:27] <missaugustina> Me either. I figure I might as well finish my docs. I think the last thing I heard was that it should at least be on the wiki
[23:28] <missaugustina> The docs I have to finish are basically mish mash of stuff that's already been written in other places. I can get them done in an afternoon, so might as well.
[23:29] <missaugustina> Do you know what team manages the Packaging Guide? is that us? Nathan Handler is the one who I was originally working with with regards to editing.
[23:31] <mdke> missaugustina: dholbach is the guy to talk to, he runs the wiki version of the PG as far as I know
[23:31] <mdke> but Nathan too
[23:31] <j1mc> that sounds right
[23:32] <missaugustina> OK I will shoot him an email just to let him know I've been working on it.
[23:32] <j1mc> :)
[23:32] <missaugustina> With wiki stuff it can get a little crazy because you can have 3 or 4 people working on the same thing.
[23:33] <mdke> yeah
[23:33] <mdke> the PG has an insane structure of includes and stuff which makes it rather odd
[23:33] <mdke> but there is a "Complete" version
[23:33] <missaugustina> Yep
[23:34] <missaugustina> Yeah I was working with the complete text and need to propose restructuring the sections
[23:34] <missaugustina> Typos in the commands, references to tools that are obsolete
[23:34] <missaugustina> also incomplete instructions
[23:34] <mdke> wow, great project
[23:34] <missaugustina> I completely rewrote the Basic section and simplified it
[23:34] <mdke> definitely something to take up with Daniel and the motu team generally
[23:35] <missaugustina> Yeah good point. I was working with Nathan on it and wasn't sure if there was anyone else I should be talking to.
[23:35] <mdke> missaugustina: you can see the changes I've quickly made to the usb-creator doc at revision 352 of the ubuntu-docs branch
[23:37] <mdke> I've changed a couple of the admonitions, which might be a bit subjective, but I hope that's ok
[23:38] <missaugustina> mdke: Looks good to me!
[23:39] <missaugustina> mdke: I just guessed at the "notes"
[23:39] <mdke> :)
[23:39] <mdke> cool
[23:39] <missaugustina> mdke: seriously, I have no ego with my work. I care more about consistency with the other  docs and overall usability than anything else.
[23:40] <mdke> you rock
[23:40] <mdke> ok, so that will be in the next upload of ubuntu-docs and you'll see it in karmic
[23:40] <mdke> thanks again
[23:40] <missaugustina> Yay! :D
[23:40] <missaugustina> Np, I am just working on going down my list to help out in anyway I can.
[23:41] <missaugustina> I am working on my tech writing cert so anything I can do to help out helps me too :)
[23:41] <mdke> cool
[23:42] <missaugustina> Also I am unemployed right now so this is like my full time job ;) haha
[23:43] <mdke> I remember the days...
[23:44] <mdke> ok, time for bed, see yall soon
[23:45] <missaugustina> Gnite! Thx for your help!
[23:45] <mdke> you too