[00:39] <bazhang> ban-dodging and continuing to troll?
[00:41] <MenZa> Sounds about right, bazhang
[00:42] <jpds> No, I'm trolling him.
[00:42]  * MenZa pets jpds 
[00:43] <bazhang> :0
[00:51] <Pricey> had a poke in PM
[01:49] <genii> /me spis his cfofee
[01:50] <MenZa> genii: something must be horribly wrong for you to be doing that.
[01:50] <genii> menses: Yes
[01:50] <MenZa> O_O
[01:50] <bazhang> mistab!
[01:54] <genii> /me ptus ob s pot od cofdee abd gors
[01:58] <MenZa> o_o
[01:59] <MenZa> !drink-#ubuntu-offtopic | genii
[02:04] <genii> menses: gOod advixe!
[02:05] <genii> bleh\
[02:05]  * genii hands MenZa A LARGE COFFEE
[02:05] <nalioth> genii: may i suggest you take a break from the keyboard for a while?
[02:05] <genii> nalioth: OK
[02:06] <nalioth> "or something", indeed
[02:06] <MenZa> Mmm, pub.
[02:14] <genii> OK I'm around now and carefully spelling but not taking support reqiests
[02:14] <genii> *requests
[02:15] <bazhang> hehe
[02:16] <Amaranth> I give up on -offtopic
[02:16] <Amaranth> Utter insanity
[02:16] <bazhang> more like sebsebseb being trigger happy
[02:20] <Pici> I personally don't consider 'crap' a swear.
[02:20] <Pici> But I understand if other ops do.
[02:21] <bazhang> neither do I
[02:22] <gord> people tend to act more like spoilt children in -ot, its frustrating. there seems to be more problems with people who just want to rebel than there is with actual rule breakers
[02:22] <genii> I figure George Carlins 7 words not to say on TV is agood guise
[02:23] <genii> *a good guide
[02:33] <bazhang> questions about packaging? appropriate channel would be -devel ? (lluad)
[02:45] <Pici> bazhang: -motu
[02:45] <bazhang> Pici, thanks
[02:45] <Pici> (a bit late)
[02:48] <dragon> !flavors
[02:49] <dragon> This looks like too much info - more than enough to confuse a newbie.
[02:54] <Paddy_NI> Amaranth, Why was I kicked?
[02:54] <Paddy_NI> Amaranth, I simply stated that I am done with you particularly?
[02:55] <Amaranth> Trolling
[02:55] <Paddy_NI> Amaranth, justify that please
[02:55] <Amaranth> Paddy_NI: Making vague arguments and insisting you are correct that that everyone else just doesn't get it
[02:55] <Paddy_NI> no
[02:56] <Paddy_NI> I simply made a suggestion that you interpreted as "trolling"
[02:57] <Paddy_NI> How dare you.. I had this conversation before and had LjL agree and snuxoll but LjL thought it was beyond his original project and declined
[02:57] <Paddy_NI> I simply wanted feed back.. not de-motivation
[02:58] <Paddy_NI> thanks all the same..
[03:00] <Pici> I just re-read that conversation in -ot and I have no idea what point he was trying to make.  That LjL's offline package list thing should somehow be part of the installer?
[03:01] <MenZa> Pici: Beyond me. I find it to be horribly confusing. o_O
[03:02] <bazhang> he was in rant mode from what I could see
[03:08] <dragon> The factoid !flavor has too much info - more than enough to confuse a newbie. Does anyone agree?
[03:08] <dragon> Oh and, that factoid has too broad scope. It should only talk about flavors like Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu...
[03:09] <MenZa> You mentioned this here yesterday.
[03:09] <dragon> MenZa: yes I did.
[03:09] <MenZa> The problem with splitting it into several factoids is that you'd most likely have to call each and everyone of them ("What is GNOME? What is KDE?" etc.)
[03:09] <MenZa> Which is the reason why it's in the same factoid to begin with.
[03:10] <MenZa> I can see where you're coming from, but I think the general consensus is that this is better for the channel flow
[03:10] <MenZa> For the record, we did discuss this briefly.
[03:11] <dragon> MenZa: If it's the general consensus, I'll go with it. I've discussed other factoids here before and most of the times I was told to keep the factoids as short and relevant as possible.
[03:12] <dragon> I don't see a direct relationship between "flavors" and "gtk" or "qt"
[03:13] <dragon> In most of the cases, if a user wants to learn about different flavors, they would have nothing to do with "software libraries" or "drawing buttons". That would simply confuse them.
[03:15] <dragon> And most importantly, the factoid is missing a link to the wiki page, which helps a user get further info on the topic.
[03:15] <dragon> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFlavors
[03:15] <dragon> !-flavors
[03:16] <MenZa> dragon: Like I said, it makes sense to use different factoids, but it would just clutter up the channel. That link could be very useful, though. I'll raise it again
[03:17] <MenZa> dragon: Anything else? :)
[03:17] <dragon> MenZa: that's it for now, thanks.
[03:17] <MenZa> Sooo, what do you guys think? Change it to include the various flavours, a link pointing to the Wiki/UbuntuFlavors for more information?
[03:19] <Flannel> While I haven't reviewed this particular one, shorter isn't always better.  Also, if the factoid only gets called infrequently, long isn't necessarily a problem.
[03:19] <MenZa> !flavors
[03:19] <Flannel> It shouldn't ever be confusing though, regardless of length
[03:19] <gord> i think that its all getting a bit anal, questions about gtk/qt often follow that factoid so leaving it in just means less questions later on
[03:19] <MenZa> That's a lot of exclamation marks in one line referring to other factoids, though.
[03:20] <Flannel> !desktop environments
[03:20] <Flannel> !desktop
[03:20] <Flannel> the !flavors factoid has too many quotation marks, if we change nothing else.
[03:20] <Flannel> But, I don't think the majority of the first two sentences of !flavors needs to be there
[03:21] <Flannel> Actually, all of the first two sentences.
[03:21] <Flannel> I'm wondering if there were two factoids that got merged
[03:21] <Flannel> !-variant
[03:21] <Flannel> !-variants
[03:21] <Flannel> Er, sorry Pici
[03:22] <Flannel> I'll bet variant was originally something else, probably talking about GUI toolkits, and then they were combined by concatenation and aliasing.
[03:23] <Flannel> But !flavors starting out "!Kubuntu and !Xubuntu are simply..." makes sense (although, might want to not start with a factoid?)
[03:24] <MenZa> bazhang: It is getting depressing :(
[03:25] <bazhang> MenZa, yep
[03:25]  * MenZa likes it better during the day.
[03:25] <bazhang> absent him (drunk) it is nice (huge improvement) all around
[03:26] <MenZa> bazhang: Is he genuinely drunk?
[03:26] <bazhang> MenZa, hard to know; he goes through these phases though
[03:26]  * MenZa nods
[03:32] <Flannel> !flavors
[03:32] <MenZa> I like it.
[03:32] <Flannel> Hmm, maybe something about switching is possible
[03:32] <Flannel> or having more than one
[03:32] <bazhang> nice
[03:32] <Flannel> I dislike the !kubuntu at the very beginning though
[03:32] <Flannel> but, it's certainly a start
[03:34] <MenZa> How about "!Kubuntu and !Xubuntu are simply flavors of Ubuntu that come with KDE and Xfce (respectively) installed as default, instead of GNOME. Other specialized flavors of Ubuntu include !Edubuntu, Ubuntu !Studio, and !Mythbuntu. For more information about running multiple Desktop Environments, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFlavors"
[03:35] <Flannel> Hmm, I've never seen that wikipage before, is it a stub? or well developed?
[03:35]  * Flannel looks
[03:36] <MenZa> Seems alright
[03:36] <MenZa> dragon linked to it
[03:36] <Flannel> Little bit outdated, but good background reading
[03:36] <MenZa> Indeed
[03:36] <Flannel> Just "for more information" no need for the other stuff
[03:37] <Flannel> also, we have a comma that need not be there.
[03:37]  * MenZa nods
[03:37] <Flannel> Oh
[03:37] <MenZa> !flavors
[03:37] <Flannel> That's on w.u.c, is there a h.u.c/c version?
[03:38] <Flannel> since, that's where it ought to be
[03:38] <MenZa> Doesn't look like it
[03:38] <MenZa> I can migrate it
[03:38] <MenZa> And expand it a bit
[03:38]  * MenZa reserves the right to Britify the article a tad.
[03:39] <Flannel> MenZa: sounds good.  Missing info on Server (which isn't really a "flavor" but it fits the "the same just with different default packages"), Studio, Myth
[03:39]  * MenZa nods
[03:39] <Flannel> MenZa: As long as you spell it flavor, not flavour ;)
[03:39] <MenZa> I will be spelling it flavour!
[03:39] <Flannel> I think ubuntu.com uses flavor, so might be ice to keep it consistent
[03:40]  * MenZa nods
[03:40] <Flannel> You can certainly redirect from flavour to flavor though ;)
[03:40] <MenZa> :D
[03:41] <MenZa> How is it one makes a cell span multiple rows in moinmoin?
[03:42] <MenZa> Oh nvermind
[03:45] <Flannel> MenZa: you get it?
[03:45] <MenZa> indeed
[03:45] <Flannel> There's an oldway with rowspan= and colspan= but, the new way is much briefer, <:2> and <-2> (for 2) or something like that
[03:45] <MenZa> I found |||||| for spanning three cells
[03:46] <MenZa> er, columns
[03:47] <Flannel> That just makes three empty cells
[03:48] <Flannel> also, moin table markup is an abomination and should only be used to torture people.
[03:48] <Paddy_NI> I have been kicked fopr saying wtf?
[03:48] <Paddy_NI> *for
[03:48] <MenZa> Not here, Flannel
[03:49] <Paddy_NI> Amaranth said it and I get kicked for telling him not to..
[03:49] <Paddy_NI> !coc
[03:49] <Amaranth> "Sanity is optional, but Common Sense(TM) is compulsory. Enforceable by EMP"
[03:49] <Paddy_NI> childish nonsense
[03:49] <Paddy_NI> I wish to complian
[03:49] <Paddy_NI> *complain
[03:50] <Amaranth> You're free to chat somewhere else if you want to continue doing stupid things
[03:50] <Paddy_NI> not to you and your derogatory comments
[03:50] <Flannel> Amaranth: Can you clarify what he was doing that you thought was stupid?
[03:51] <Amaranth> Flannel: First he was trying to argue a point very aggressively and not explaining himself so I asked him to stop
[03:51] <Amaranth> Flannel: This time is for calling !ohmy
[03:52] <Paddy_NI> I did not call ohmy.. and that previous arguement is invalid
[03:52] <Paddy_NI> I simply corrected your bad language
[03:52] <Amaranth> ohmy and language are the same factoid, don't play with semantics
[03:52] <Amaranth> Paddy_NI: It's sort of up to us what is bad language
[03:52] <Paddy_NI> even if you mask it with an acronym its still bad language
[03:52] <Paddy_NI> coc
[03:53] <Paddy_NI> only applies to the users not the ops
[03:53] <Paddy_NI> ?
[03:53] <Amaranth> No but I also don't yell if people say 'wtf'
[03:53] <Paddy_NI> Flannel, I am appealing to your sense of logic..could you please scroll back and read
[03:54] <Amaranth> Paddy_NI: It's not like you're banned
[03:54] <Paddy_NI> Amaranth, that is not the point
[03:54] <Paddy_NI> I have been kicked twice for no good reason
[03:55] <Paddy_NI> I am very upset and starting to feel that #ubuntu-offtopic has decended into anarchy
[03:55] <MenZa> Paddy_NI: Not at all. That's what we're here to try and avoid.
[03:56] <Paddy_NI> MenZa, then why am I being treated in this way
[03:57] <MenZa> Paddy_NI: I'm not going to answer that as I have not been reading the backlog from the start, and nor do I particularly wish to do so (it's pretty long as far as I can tell).
[03:57] <Paddy_NI> All I have done since early days of Dapper Drake was to try and help and contribute ideas... recently I am being made a fool of
[03:58] <Paddy_NI> MenZa, I am sorry to cause more work but I do wish for a resolution/explanation?
[03:58] <MenZa> Paddy_NI: However, from the last part I've read it seems like the matter is about whether or not acronyms like "wtf" are covered by !language - it's a bit of a grey area in policy, so I think the best thing to do right now is to shrug it off and we'll just have to discuss it amongst ourselves what to do in the future
[03:58] <Paddy_NI> MenZa, If you cannot tell I am pretty upset
[03:58] <MenZa> I can tell.
[03:59] <MenZa> Paddy_NI: I'll keep you notified of our conclusion, if you'd like?
[03:59] <Flannel> Paddy_NI: From what I read, you were attempting to argue for an idea which sounds like it has merit, but going about it poorly.  In such a manner where you were aggravating people.
[03:59] <Paddy_NI> Flannel, sorry.. could you point me to where exactly?
[03:59] <MenZa> What Flannel's bringing up right now I know nowt about; I only read the !language part.
[03:59] <Paddy_NI> MenZa, I appreciate that.. thank you
[04:00] <MenZa> Paddy_NI: Do remind me the next time you see me; I have a memory like a sieve.
[04:00] <Flannel> Paddy_NI: Erm, well, a few places, but without referencing, trying to insist that Ubuntu can't install without an internet connection.
[04:00] <Paddy_NI> MenZa, lol.. fair enough
[04:00] <Paddy_NI> Flannel, no.. again that is an incorrect assumption
[04:00] <Paddy_NI> *assumption
[04:01] <Paddy_NI> nne the less okay
[04:01] <Flannel> Paddy_NI: No, it's not.  I can tell you this because I've done it many times.
[04:01] <Paddy_NI> *none
[04:01] <gord> lets not have this conversation again in here
[04:01] <Flannel> Paddy_NI: the only installer you need an internet connection for is the minimal CD
[04:01] <Paddy_NI> Flannel, so have I
[04:01] <Paddy_NI> Flannel, exactly
[04:02] <gord> i had to stop in to get you to stop agrivating people in -ot a short while ago on this topic Paddy_NI, there is nothing we can do about previous removals, it happened. its best that you learn a lesson from it so that it doesn't happen in the future
[04:02] <gord> step in*
[04:02] <Paddy_NI> gord, That is what I am asking
[04:02] <Paddy_NI> O_O
[04:02] <MenZa> I'm inclined to agree with gord; there's no point in continuing this discussion. As for the language matter, we'll talk about that.
[04:02] <MenZa> Well, problem solved then, Paddy_NI :)
[04:03] <Flannel> Paddy_NI: I would like to see a better form of AptonCD that you can use from OSX or Windows, I've contemplated creating one a few times.  However, like I said, you went about it poorly and in a manner that wasn't becoming.
[04:03] <Paddy_NI> okay so why was I kicked the first time
[04:03] <MenZa> I believe we've already covered this.
[04:03] <Paddy_NI> Flannel, yes.. yet that is changing the subject.. I am still upset.. I wish for an apology
[04:04] <Amaranth> *cough*
[04:04] <Paddy_NI> This is frankly completley unfair
[04:04] <Paddy_NI> okay
[04:04] <MenZa> Paddy_NI: Please don't; we don't want a religious crusade for an apology. What's done is done, there's nothing we can do to change it, etc. etc.
[04:04] <MenZa> There really is no point.
[04:04] <Paddy_NI> so I must just take it and that is that
[04:04] <Paddy_NI> okay fair enough
[04:05] <Paddy_NI> I wish to make a formal complaint?
[04:05] <MenZa> !appeals
[04:05] <MenZa> If you really insist.
[04:06] <Paddy_NI> MenZa, Oh.. I insist
[04:06] <Paddy_NI> :)
[04:06]  * MenZa headdesks repeatedly
[04:06] <Amaranth> That's fine, I'm happy with spending more time making his computer work
[04:06] <Flannel> MenZa: Once is generally enough, no need to remove braincells
[04:07] <MenZa> Flannel: Sometimes, well... it's just necessary.
[04:07] <Flannel> MenZa: may I also suggest you mix it up some, throw in a facepalm every once in a while
[04:07] <MenZa> Also, about the language ... issue.
[04:07] <MenZa> We do have !wtf
[04:07] <MenZa> And I know a user was kicked and banned from -ot yesterday for repeatedly saying 'OMFG'
[04:07] <MenZa> !-wtf
[04:08] <Amaranth> Yay inconsistent enforcement of poorly defined rules
[04:08] <MenZa> I've always been going by the factoid
[04:08] <gord> wtf generally doesn't go punished or remarked upon
[04:08] <Amaranth> Not in offtopic, anyway
[04:08] <Amaranth> It all depends on context
[04:08] <Flannel> MenZa: Aye, obfuscated swearing is swearing.  Usually resulting in a warning, but its all circumstantial
[04:08] <MenZa> Personally, I don't see how 'wtf' could ever be in the least offensive, so I don't see a problem with it
[04:09] <MenZa> But policy is policy. </bureaucrat>
[04:09] <Amaranth> Strict enforcement of any of the rules/guidelines only leads to tears
[04:09] <MenZa> heh
[04:09] <Flannel> We have a "no" policy because it's easier than saying "well, it's only sometimes bad" because people generally can't understand when it is(n't) acceptable.
[04:09] <Amaranth> I'm sorry people are stupid.
[04:09]  * MenZa nods
[04:09] <nalioth> MenZa: so you don't mentall sound out 'wtf' and 'ffs' and 'omfg' when you see them?
[04:10] <MenZa> "ffs" and "omfg" would set off my alarm bells. as Flannel says, it is all circumstantial
[04:10] <gord> i mentally sound out the lower case letters
[04:10] <MenZa> depending on context, 'wtf' might or might not.
[04:10]  * MenZa also
[04:11] <Flannel> MenZa: "wtf" is the same.  It's language.  But the language enforcement is circumstantial, not the abbreviation part of it
[04:11] <Amaranth> I've actually been known to say 'w-t-f' in real life :P
[04:13] <Amaranth> If things like this are going to be strictly enforced in offtopic I'm fine just going to ##club-ubuntu, honestly.
[04:15] <MenZa> <___<
[04:16] <Amaranth> It's a little to extreme but it's a lot closer to the #ubuntu-offtopic I enjoyed chatting in
[04:16] <Amaranth> s/to/too/
[04:16] <MenZa> No, no, I'm talking about Paddy_NI's comments in -ot now
[04:16] <MenZa> Oh well.
[04:16]  * MenZa goes back to his database.
[04:17] <Amaranth> I'm tempted to kick again
[04:17] <Amaranth> Just for the humor in the situation
[04:17] <MenZa> Really, Amaranth, the best thing to do would just be to leave him alone
[04:17] <MenZa> Or he might fire back up
[04:18] <gord> give him an inch and he'll take a yard
[04:18] <Amaranth> Enough rope to hang himself, maybe?
[04:19] <Flannel> Or just leave him be.  Let him get through his tantrum and be done with it.
[04:20]  * MenZa nods
[04:20] <Flannel> If he wants to hang himself, he'll start back up later.  He's fired up right now, there's no need to provoke him for something silly.
[04:26] <Amaranth> a distinct lack of !language calls there
[04:27] <Flannel> Amaranth: that's because a certain someone isn't trying to be a pain
[04:28] <Amaranth> Seriously, we need a new rule for offtopic so we have an excuse to clear up the insanity we've seen tonight
[04:28] <Amaranth> New rule: Stupid is not allowed
[04:28] <Flannel> Paddy_NI: How can we help you this evening?
[04:29] <Paddy_NI> Please could you point me to a form which I may format my complaint.. or possibly a log of #ubuntu-offtopic?
[04:29] <MenZa> For the record, I just received this query.
[04:29] <MenZa> [2009-09-26 03:18:28 UTC] <Paddy_NI> Please could you point me to a form which I may format my complaint.. or possibly a log of #ubuntu-offtopic?
[04:29] <MenZa> [2009-09-26 03:21:09 UTC] <MenZa> http://lassehavelund.com/ot20090926-800.log <- Last 800 lines. Just read the AppealsProcess page. That should do.
[04:29] <MenZa> (I like to play with open cards here)
[04:29] <Paddy_NI> me too
[04:29] <Paddy_NI> thank you
[04:30] <MenZa> Welcome. If that's all, please /part :)
[04:30] <Flannel> Amaranth: We've considered something like that in the past
[04:30] <Amaranth> right at the top of that log: < rww> sebsebseb: well yeah, but there's a difference between hitting the panic button in an emergency, and factoiding people for borderline cases.
[04:31] <Flannel> Because some people just go in there and blather on about random crap for the sake of hearing themselves talk, to the detriment of people having actual conversations.
[04:31] <Flannel> Amaranth: That's before he was in the channel, actually.
[04:31] <Amaranth> I know, just funny
[04:31] <Flannel> and, seb3 has always had an itchy factoid finger
[04:32]  * MenZa uses factoids whenever possible.
[04:32] <MenZa> Easier than, you know, having to write everything out every time.
[04:32] <Flannel> MenZa: It's also a horrible policy when the factoids don't really fit.
[04:32] <MenZa> Indeed.
[04:33] <MenZa> I only do it when it Makes Sense(tm)
[04:33] <Flannel> People don't come to #u to get greeted by bots, they're generally confused, or unsure of themselves, saying "Here's a link to a few pages, one of them has the answer!" isn't good
[04:34] <Flannel> Some people forget that and figure they need to use factoids for everything, it's pretty bad certain times of the day
[04:34] <Flannel> Or has been in the past, I don't think we have that problem chronically anymore.
[04:35] <Amaranth> I usually give them the factoid then some help in following the relevant part
[04:35] <Amaranth> But the information in the factoid is informative in general so hopefully they learn a bit more than just "fix this problem"
[04:36] <Amaranth> How else do you get new helpers?
[04:37] <MenZa> +1
[04:38] <MenZa> Amaranth: ^
[04:38] <MenZa> (and Flannel, for that sake)
[04:38] <Flannel> !scope | MenZa
[04:38]  * Flannel hides
[04:38] <MenZa> :P
[04:47] <elky> Amaranth, if you're going to storm off to join a troll pit, for all thing "being unable to breach standards we expect of non-op chatters" then i'm not going to stop you, but it certainly makes me think a lot less of you for it.
[04:48] <Amaranth> elky: If you think that is the reasoning you are welcome to do so
[04:48] <elky> that's the reasoning i'm seeing from the scrollback.
[04:49] <Amaranth> elky: The difference is I don't expect that of non-op chatters
[04:49] <Amaranth> I don't get on people for 'wtf'
[04:50] <elky> but you were asked not to.
[04:50] <Amaranth> The only person I have meaningful conversations with in offtopic is snuxoll anyway
[04:50] <Amaranth> elky: And I disagree with the rule
[04:50] <Amaranth> elky: Since rules never get relaxed around here there is no alternative
[04:50] <elky> Amaranth, that does not give you the right to use it as part of an excuse for why you kick banned them.
[04:51] <Amaranth> I kicked them for being annoying
[04:51] <elky> that's not how I see it.
[04:52] <Amaranth> elky: And I'll probably never convince you otherwise
[04:53] <Amaranth> I've never enforced these stupid rules as strictly as others
[04:53] <Amaranth> Even before the factoid change for !o4o I would usually let a conversation go until/unless it got out of hand
[04:53] <elky> !o4o
[04:54] <elky> " If you are asked to stop, do so politely."
[04:54] <Amaranth> elky: Please actually read what I say
[04:54] <Amaranth> killertcell: No
[04:54] <killertcell> any of you kline me?
[04:55] <Amaranth> Do you want to be klined?
[04:55] <killertcell> yes
[04:55] <killertcell> it will make my day
[04:55] <elky> nalioth, can you deal with #ubuntu-+1 please, i believe it's been taken by trolls.
[04:55] <killertcell> I was in there
[04:56] <nalioth> elky: certainly
[04:56] <killertcell> KLINE ME ITS A SIMPLE DAMN THING TO DO
[04:56] <Amaranth> Just one troll and he is here right now
[04:56] <killertcell> NOW KLINE ME
[04:59] <Amaranth> *sigh*
[05:05] <elky> i'm assuming he's just getting muted all over the place?
[05:05] <Flannel> He's going for a hat trick
[05:06] <Amaranth> I'm assuming he is on someone else's computer/network and wants to make their life miserable
[05:06] <elky> yeah #freenode isn't making his life easier, the poor soul.
[05:07] <elky> 5 min kline i assume?
[05:07] <nalioth> elky: no such critter
[05:12] <elky> Amaranth, back to you.
 Flannel: First he was trying to argue a point very aggressively and not explaining himself so I asked him to stop
 Flannel: This time is for calling !ohmy
[05:12] <elky> is your reasoning for what you did to paddy_ni
[05:12] <Amaranth> Those are my words so I assume so
[05:12] <Amaranth> Oh, thought that was a question
[05:13] <elky> How am i mistaken for your motives for kicking him?
[05:13] <elky> You don't get to kick people for them objecting to something you say.
[05:14] <Amaranth> First one was for basically trolling the the way he was presenting his point
[05:14] <Amaranth> Second one was for an inappropriate !ohmy call
[05:14] <elky> it was not inappropriate.
[05:14] <Amaranth> And there is our disagreement
[05:15] <elky> it is not inappropriate because users are allowed to express that they dislike certain bad language.
[05:16] <Amaranth> So they can just say that, maybe?
[05:16] <Amaranth> Having the bot spit the factoid at me is insulting
[05:16] <MenZa> elky: So, the way to interpret !language is that it's pretty much expressly forbidden in #ubuntu, with a slightly more loose definition in -ot, unless someone expressly states that they're offended by it? (Just a meta question to get the definition completely right)
[05:17] <Amaranth> I'm offended by the word ubuntu, I'm going to !ohmy everyone who says it.
[05:17] <Amaranth> See how this gets out of hand?
[05:17] <elky> Amaranth, we use the bot to spit factoids at everyone. you're not so special that you're exempt from factoids.
[05:18] <elky> Amaranth, there's a degree of commonsense used, but when ops are known to do ohmy for wtf, then it's totally inappropriate to ban a user for doing the same, whether or not you disagree with it.
[05:18] <Amaranth> I'm honestly offended whenever someone talks bad about Apple, can I use factoids to make them stop?
[05:19] <Amaranth> elky: It wasn't a ban
[05:19] <elky> s/ban/kick/ then
[05:20] <Amaranth> All of these rules and restrictions are created without me even knowing about them
[05:20] <elky> dont play semantics with me, you didn't allow paddy to play semantics with you.
[05:20] <elky> bull. these rules and restrictions have evolved over years.
[05:20] <Amaranth> So if I don't agree with them I don't enforce them so strictly
[05:20] <elky> you've been an op for years.
[05:20] <Amaranth> elky: I've also been able to say 'wtf' in offtopic for years
[05:21] <elky> and wtf has been ohmy'd by myrtti and others for years.
[05:21] <Amaranth> Apparently not when I'm around
[05:22] <Amaranth> Hell, I got an !ohmy for saying 'crap' earlier
[05:22] <elky> which does not grant you an automatic ability to kick someone for using it just because your dignity got a little scratch on it.
[05:22] <Amaranth> And if this was offtopic I'd probably get it for saying 'hell'
[05:22] <Amaranth> If I hadn't kicked him the first time the second kick probably wouldn't have happened
[05:23] <Amaranth> I'm less lenient after the first time
[05:23] <elky> Amaranth, you still did the wrong thing the second time.
[05:24] <Amaranth> If I pretend to agree will you drop it?
[05:24] <elky> if you pretend to abide by it in future, sure.
[05:24] <Amaranth> Less clear
[05:25] <Amaranth> If I kick someone for something and they do anything else stupid while I'm still around they're probably going to get another kick
[05:25] <elky> except it was not stupid.
[05:25] <nalioth> being "stupid" isn't grounds for $action
[05:25] <Amaranth> nalioth: Since everyone else gets to make up rules it is now
[05:26] <nalioth> nobody is making up rules
[05:26] <elky> Amaranth, if you're going to be like that, you may want to consider whether you're really wanting to be an op.
[05:26] <Amaranth> Don't be stupid used to be the only rule offtopic had
[05:26] <elky> Amaranth, when there was like 50 people there
[05:27] <elky> and when the average age was somewhere in the 20s
[05:27] <Amaranth> If we enforce it maybe we'll get back to 50 people
[05:27] <elky> you'll have to go over the IRCC to the CC for that one.
[05:27] <elky> and i can tell you now what the result of that will be.
[05:29] <Amaranth> I suppose that depends on how I word it
[05:29] <elky> i'll be sure to come with the logs of this channel today.
[05:29] <Amaranth> heh
[05:30] <elky> the CC doesn't like being lied to.
[05:30] <Amaranth> And I don't like having all the fun squeezed out of my hobby
[05:31] <elky> if you ban people for fun, then you're in the wrong place.
[05:32] <Amaranth> That's not what I mean at all
[05:32] <Amaranth> #ubuntu-offtopic used to be the place to blow off steam
[05:32] <Amaranth> Now I have to go to ##club-ubuntu to blow off steam from dealing with #ubuntu-offtopic
[05:33] <elky> and you know better than to advertise that channel, too.
[05:33] <Amaranth> Having it in the logs here isn't going to hurt anything
[05:33] <elky> it is your responsibility to keep up with the current rules.
[05:34] <elky> Amaranth, you really are out of touch if you believe that.
[05:34] <Amaranth> So should I bring up the language issue in offtopic with the IRCC or are you unilaterally rejecting that?
[05:35] <elky> if you would like us to define it closer, then initiating a discussion on it is advisable.
[05:35] <Amaranth> I'd say, yes, I am out of touch, because I mainly focus on development and hanging out in offtopic unless someone calls for ops
[05:35] <Amaranth> Which is why offtopic being ruined for me is so frustrating
[05:36] <elky> then you are neglecting the responsibilities of keeping up to date.
[05:37] <Amaranth> Then perhaps I should just call for other ops when a situation comes up
[05:37] <GSF1200S> im having issues logging into #ubuntu
[05:37] <GSF1200S> im in two other irc channels without issue
[05:38] <GSF1200S> ubuntu is saying i have a buggy router, but I have no access to my router
[05:38] <Amaranth> GSF1200S: The channel you are sent to tells you what to do in that case
[05:41] <GSF1200S> ok so bear with me
[05:41] <Flannel> GSF1200S: You can work around it without needing to modify the router
[05:41] <GSF1200S> i appended 8001 to my freenode address
[05:41] <GSF1200S> it works
[05:41] <MenZa> yay
[05:41] <Amaranth> GSF1200S: Did you have the bot test you?
[05:41] <GSF1200S> but in the interest of learning, what does the port have to do with DCC attacks
[05:42] <Amaranth> When connecting to 8001 it strips out the offending messages that cause your router to mess up
[05:42] <GSF1200S> the Amaranth- didnt have to.. it just logged me in without trying to test
[05:42] <GSF1200S> offending messages?
[05:43] <GSF1200S> im profecient with linux, although not spelling or networking, sorry...
[05:43] <Amaranth> GSF1200S: There are messages that when sent to you trigger a bug in your router that makes it reboot
[05:44] <GSF1200S> hmmm ok
[05:45] <GSF1200S> how would the messages do that? Wouldnt have to know the router model?
[05:45] <Amaranth> hmm, or does it just drop the connection to freenode? don't actually remember now
[05:45] <Amaranth> GSF1200S: No, they all share some common code and thus a common exploit
[05:45] <GSF1200S> oh ok...
[05:46] <GSF1200S> well, i suppose i could have resolved this without using your time, but ive been having issues with docs lately :) thanks
[05:46] <Amaranth> Basically very model of router on the market is made by maybe 3 companies then they get rebranded and sold so they all have similar software
[05:46] <Amaranth> s/very/every/
[05:47] <Flannel> GSF1200S: The router has an overzealous protection mechanism, it's not an exploit, but some things that signify you're being exploited use it.  It overreacts and disconnects you for "safety"
[05:48] <GSF1200S> i didnt know all that
[05:48] <Amaranth> I've always been terrible at explaining this :)
[05:48] <MenZa> Amaranth: Seems pretty straightforward. ;)
[05:49] <GSF1200S> so it interprets certain packets as an attack when in fact it isnt? So then freenode tries to have you fix it to avoid flooding of channels?
[05:49] <Amaranth> Freenode provides a workaround for routers that don't have fixes available and for people who can't apply such fixes anyway
[05:50] <Amaranth> It is our decision to remove people from the channel until they fix it so attackers don't have so many people to target
[05:50] <Amaranth> Before we started doing that we'd get an attack every couple of minutes some times, just in time for the people disconnected to come back
[05:50] <Amaranth> Not fun seeing 50 people quit and join rapidly
[06:00] <MenZa> Flannel: You get him.
[06:00] <Flannel> meh
[06:00] <bazhang> heh
[06:24] <Flannel> wizzo: How can we help you today?
[06:24] <wizzo> ok, to clarify. I'm an op for the archlinux channel and the offtopic one plus some others, I didn't see last time I asked when Flannel said this information would actually be relevant
[06:25] <wizzo> I'm still interested in what happened with thewizord, bruenig, etc.
[06:25] <wizzo> because I'm a bit worried about all these staffers in the channel and the talk of "getting arch kicked off freenode"
[06:25] <Flannel> wizzo: I believe you were directed to staff last time you asked that
[06:26] <wizzo> does it really have to do with them?
[06:26] <wizzo> seems to be just ubuntu involved
[06:27] <wizzo> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/09/24/%23ubuntu-ops.html
[06:27] <wizzo> and based on everything ikonia said after I left maybe everyone is taking this a bit too seriously
[06:29] <wizzo> I understand the staff are technically the only people who are taking action for all this but it seems like this whole tiff is just between ubuntu
[06:36] <wizzo> ok well I sort of need an answer no matter how alienating this channel is. I'll just hang out for now
[08:58] <jussi01> wizzo: this is a staff decision to do something about those people, please consult them about it. While things may have been happening in the ubuntu channels, any decision to kline is taken by freenode staff.
[09:33] <Tm_T> we really need an op there
[10:09] <Tm_T> hi tsimpson
[10:09] <tsimpson> hey Tm_T
[10:10] <Tm_T> elky: I didn't remember I wasn't op there, silly
[10:47] <ikonia> wizzo: do you need anything else from the channel ?
[11:09] <ikonia> wizzo: hello are you active ?
[11:25] <ikonia> wizzo: if you don't need anything more from the channel or you're not active the channel has a non-idle policy. It may be better to come back when you have something you want to discuss.
[12:10] <Myrtti> !member > aalinux
[12:11] <Myrtti> !member
[12:11] <Myrtti> *sigh*
[13:32] <MenZa> jrib: Madwifi is old, deprecated, and useless. ath5k is used now - madwifi *will* break
[13:33] <jrib> MenZa: He says it was offered to him in Hardware Drivers in 9.04, is that usual?
[13:33] <MenZa> No
[13:33] <MenZa> Definitely not
[13:33] <MenZa> jrib: http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/releasenotes/810#Atheros%20ath5k%20wireless%20driver%20not%20enabled%20by%20default
[13:33] <jrib> hmm
[13:34] <MenZa> ath5k is now the default for Atheros cards
[13:34] <MenZa> I don't see why it shouldn't *just* *work* on Jaunty
[13:34] <MenZa> I'm pretty sure mine did on my laptop
[13:51]  * jrib bets he could beat menza with his ubottu factoid auto-completion on irssi!
[13:52] <MenZa> most likely!
[13:52] <MenZa> wait, factoid auto-completion?
[13:52]  * MenZa is intrigued.
[13:54] <jrib> MenZa: old script I wrote for irssi, let me see if I still have it
[13:54] <MenZa> excellent
[13:56] <jrib> MenZa: http://paste.ubuntu.com/278725/
[13:57] <MenZa> Nice
[13:57]  * MenZa shall have to go download the DB now
[13:57] <MenZa> !ubottu
[14:00] <MenZa> all it depends on is the db and sqlite, yeah jrib?
[14:00] <jrib> MenZa: iirc, yeah
[14:01] <MenZa> jrib: http://paste.ubuntu.com/278730/
[14:01] <MenZa> DBD:SQLite 2... hmm
[14:02] <MenZa> and  libdbd-sqlite3-perl
[14:02] <MenZa> is installed
[14:02] <jrib> sqlite versions are weird
[14:02] <jrib> but this was made when ubottu was ubotu so...
[14:02] <MenZa> aye
[14:02] <MenZa> I see it's a couple of years old
[14:02] <jrib> MenZa: you need sqlite2 specifically I think
[14:03] <MenZa> hmm
[14:04] <MenZa> libdb-sqlite2-perl worked
[14:04] <MenZa> And the script appears to work
[14:04] <MenZa> At least, I'm tabbing between different factoids here - thanks
[14:05] <jrib> MenZa: no problem, I need to rewrite it for weechat
[14:05]  * MenZa shudders.
[14:05] <MenZa> What kind of person are you :(
[14:36] <jrib> MenZa: I like python :/
[14:37] <MenZa> hmm, pint
[14:37] <MenZa> point*
[15:45] <arand> Right, so someone just put spam in the topic for ubuntu-devel it seems...
[16:27] <Tm_T> nalioth: Standley [n=Standley@91.179.254.158] was the guy in -devel if that slipped by
[16:58] <nalioth> Tm_T: thanks
[20:04]  * genii hugs the coffeepot
[20:04]  * MenZa sends a mug of coffee flying in genii's direction, desperate not to--
[20:04] <MenZa> :/
[20:05] <genii> MenZa: Heh, thanks!
[20:05] <MenZa> --let his caffeine levels get below critical level.
[22:05] <Valkyrie> Still banned..
[22:05] <Valkyrie> Am i on a permi ban?
[22:07] <Amaranth> ah, the one with the bots
[22:07]  * Valkyrie Sighs
[22:07] <Amaranth> you'll have to talk to jussi01
[22:07] <Valkyrie> Yush, one half of them
[22:07] <Valkyrie> e.o
[22:08] <Valkyrie> jussi01?
[22:13]  * Valkyrie Facedesks
[22:13] <Valkyrie> Am i gunna get talkeded to
[22:13] <ikonia> Valkyrie: doesn't look like jussi01 is active at the moment
[22:14]  * Valkyrie Facedesks once more
[22:14] <Valkyrie> Gahh...
[22:15] <Valkyrie> Do you guys still think we were attempting to `kill` ubottu?
[22:15] <Valkyrie> O_o
[22:15] <ikonia> Valkyrie: jussi01 is the guy you need to talk to about that
[22:15] <Valkyrie> Alrighty-roo
[22:21] <ikonia> Valkyrie: you may want to come back when jussi01 is active
[22:21] <Valkyrie> ..
[22:21]  * Valkyrie Sighs
[22:21] <Valkyrie> Alrighty...
[22:21] <Valkyrie>  /wc
[22:22] <gord> my memory is not great, isn't grexo in -ot a guy that keeps ban evading or something?
[22:22] <ikonia> lets see
[22:23] <ikonia> gord: he is banned - well spotted
[22:53] <MenZa> gord: your powers of observation continue to impress.
[22:59] <gord> yes, my vauge understanding of what is currently happening, maybe. is very impressive indeed