=== dendrobates is now known as dendro-afk [01:53] hrmm after updating my karmic vm i can't use the mouse or keyboard === dendro-afk is now known as dendrobates === e-jat is now known as ejat [03:47] ScottK: there really isnt a better way of getting the attention of the user than a popup dialog [03:47] ScottK: an "oh shit your computer is going to shut down NOW" message seems appropriate in that case [03:47] and keep in mind that is completely different from a low battery "warning" [03:48] which just says politely "btw, your battery is low.. you should do something like plug it in or shut it down" [03:50] seele: I'd like to see you contribute to the upstream discussion then. [03:51] ScottK: what mailing list was it on because i completely missed it [03:51] i basically archived everything from last week because i couldnt keep up with it while on holiday [03:51] seele: kde-core-devel [03:51] who were the primary participants? [03:52] actually, what was the subject so i can find it [03:52] seele: The thread starts here: http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-core-devel&m=125362617220332&w=2 [03:52] ok [03:52] It seemed primarily asiego and sebas from the people I know being strongly against. [03:52] holy shit 68 responses [03:53] well i dont have teh patience to argue with aseigo [03:53] seele: I see your point, but I don't want to be stuck with a patch that we are going to have to maintain forever. [03:53] ill say my bit and see what happens i guess [03:53] The short version is dialogues come from applications, the system should use notifications. [03:53] If the notification needs to be spiffied up to make it more obvious, fine. [03:54] They were very against the idea of a dialogue appearing 'out of nowhere'. [03:55] out of nowhere? the computer is going to shut down on it's own! i'd say that's a pretty responsible thing to do [03:55] The computer is going to suspend, not shut down [03:56] well. still. stuff will go away and you can't work anymore [03:56] the computer is going to act on it's own in a major way [03:56] That was another point of the discussion that if suspend is broken, fix suspend, don't work around the fact that it's broken. [03:56] Thus willingness to have the notification be more obvious. [03:57] i thought a high percent of hardware now works with suspend [03:57] Although no one could find an example of someone not noticing the existing notification. [03:57] and it is still going to suspend isnt it? regardless of what type of visual notification we make? [03:57] i dont see how that would be relevant to that conversation [03:57] Unless you cancel it. [03:57] right, and in that case, having a popup dialot which provides you a way to cancel it seems more reasonable for cases where suspend might not work [03:58] instead of it quietly counting to itself in the corner and then BOOM [03:58] The only actual problems people reported were the timeout being too short and the button to hit to cancel being too small. [03:58] that seems pretty easy to fix [03:58] Yes [03:58] argh [03:58] So the conclusion on the list was that the actual problems were quite fixable without switching to a dialogue [03:59] the problems have nothing to do with it [03:59] The only actual reason to switch to a dialogue was if you think actions on notifications are evil. [03:59] that also has nothing to do with it [03:59] argh [03:59] It has everything to do with it. [03:59] no, it doesnt matter if there are actions on the notification because the information shouldnt be delivered in a notification [03:59] This is the one OMG I must have an action case the agateau found in his review of KDE actions. [04:00] a notification, actions or not, is too passive for that type of proactive action from the computer [04:00] that is why a dialog is perfectly suited for that type of feedback [04:00] Well review the thread then and reply. [04:00] ok [04:00] Just trying to give you the sense of it. [04:01] Personally, I think the timeout should be longer and the action area ought to be bigger. I don't see it makes a lot of difference between dialogue and notification. What I really don't want is to be stuck with patch maintenance forever due to permanent upstream divergence. [04:03] IME the notification is plenty noticable. [04:19] it has to be more than noticable [04:19] it can't be missed [04:19] and notifications can be missed [04:20] telling the user that the computer is going to go to sleep right now is not something that should be missed [04:20] argh [04:20] only through the first 5 emails [04:28] Right, but no examples of it being missed were provided. [04:30] maybe we should file bugs against kde then submit patches for review against the bugs (assuming we havent already opened kde bugs) [04:30] rgreening: For what? [04:31] well if the powerdevil notification is in question, file a bug/wishlist against it upstream I guess [04:31] then once filed it's easier to work with maybe [04:32] of course I seem to be batting zero on suggestions this week... [04:32] Did you miss the "hey I'm about to suspend" notification? [04:32] ScottK: if someone gives me 5k then i can find out, but that seems like a waste of money for such a minor feature [04:32] heh [04:32] actually, might need 10k, it would have to be statistically significant [04:33] seele: Right, well I don't care which one we use nearly as much as I care about not being stuck with a patch forever. [04:34] "Ayatana will maintain it" doesn't much comfort me. [04:41] i took a nap from 5pm until 9:30pm...I am ready for work! [05:26] Riddell and ryanakca: I went ahead and announced the move of KDE 4.2.4 to jaunty-backports on kubuntu.org since we got bitched at for not doing so before. Feel free to improve it. [05:37] Crap. Just upgraded my laptop to karmic and black screen after login (just the mouse). [05:38] Suggestions welcome. [05:47] http://tinyurl.com/yatepls [05:49] Riddell: I'm going to bed, but any suggestions for black screen after login on upgrade from Jaunty are quite welcome. [05:51] ScottK: I had a problem with settings after upgrade, moved .kde and all was fine [05:52] jussi01: Thanks. I'll try that after the "you've rebooted too many times" fsck gets done. [05:52] hrm, Ive been running karmic for a while on this lappy, and sound has been a constant issue. It works ok, except for when a sound needs to be played, I get a "tick" sound (like a mike being plugged in?) and the mute light flashes. it then goes on to play the sound - however, if the sound is too short like a skype login or so, you get just the tick and mute flash [05:53] any suggestions? [05:59] jussi01: No luck with moving .kde. Thanks for the suggestion. [05:59] ScottK: hrm, curious. === santiago-ve is now known as Guest80334 === Guest80334 is now known as fourisixnine === fourisixnine is now known as foursixnine === Tonio__ is now known as Tonio_ [08:10] ok, I reported the phonon bug I mentioned before: bug 438556 maybe one for dtchen ? [08:10] Launchpad bug 438556 in phonon "Phonon Ticks when opening/playing a sound" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/438556 [09:44] ScottK: about bug 432521 [09:44] Launchpad bug 432521 in kdebase-workspace "kdm does not restart X server (that crashed on logout)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/432521 [09:46] ScottK: I agree with our comment in #4. Bug in #3 is more important. For whatever reason it looks like I can't change subject/desc too. I assume the reason is I'm too stupid to find the right button :( [10:02] Riddell: I have patched kdebluetooth as requested... [10:02] may I upload directly and you review as an archive admin ;) [10:20] mhh, kdepim is untranslated after upgrade of some language packs :/ [10:30] is there a way to disable apport completely? [10:31] I've disabled it once, but it still tries to open [11:06] markey: there's an init script afaik [11:06] Not sure if that will disable apport, but it might break it enough so you don't see it [11:35] ach: It's a but that the current LP doesn't work with Konqueror for changing bug descriptions. [11:39] Riddell: My laptop is still dead after upgrade, so hints are welcome. [11:43] ScottK: what's in .dmrc ? [11:43] does startx work? [11:43] Looking [11:44] can you use a fallback session to get a terminal and start kde bits one by one to see what's not starting [11:44] what's in .xsession-errors? [11:44] Gotta boot it first [11:46] .dmrc has [Desktop] [11:46] Session=default [11:49] Riddell: The only error in .xsession-errors is "/usr/bin/xmodmap: unable to open file '/usr/share/kubuntu-default-settings/kubuntu.xmodmap' for reading [11:50] Then "/usr/bin/xmodmap: 1 error encountered, aborting." [11:51] The rest is mostly stuff like "kdeinit4: preparing to launch /usr/lib/libkdeinit4_kconf_update.so [11:52] Trying startx now [11:53] Riddell: startx doesn't even get to the login screen. It switches to a black screen with just a mouse. === santiago-ve is now known as Guest2025 [11:57] I can confirm that kubuntu.xmodmap is not there in k-d-s. [12:01] Riddell: hey :) Harald said you can add me to a google doc i might be interested in [12:01] or JontheEchidna [12:08] Riddell: Fixed. Somehow I had openbox installed on the box too. Purging that fixed it. [12:09] well that's just asking for trouble :) [12:09] Nightrose: umm, did he give any clue as to which? [12:10] Riddell: future plans afaik [12:10] maybe you'd like to join our monthly wholesale food order and buy a pallet of sweetcorn? [12:10] *lol* [12:10] hmm, don't see any google doc about that [12:10] sure [12:10] ok [12:11] will have to wait until he is back at a proper computer then === Riddell changed the topic of #kubuntu-devel to: Go go beta testers! http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/kubuntu/all | Brr, Beta Freeze, Feature and UI Freeze in effect | https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo | We need paperKuts! https://launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts [12:32] Riddell: All is not happy. If I boot via the recovery session and manually sudo kdm start, it works. Normal boot, I don't even get to the login screen. Suggestions? [12:34] I did move my .kde away and no help. === rdieter_work is now known as rdieter === yofel_ is now known as yofeel === yofeel is now known as yofel === rdieter is now known as rdieter_work [12:59] ScottK: I did dist-upgrade and reboot and kdm starts file. Try: initclt list |grep kdm Maybe kdm is not started because of upstart thinks dependecies are missing? [13:02] Riddell: is there a place we can start collecting ideas/todos for Lucid? Or do you have any suggestions? I have some ideas I'd like to start writing down and not forget them... [13:02] or prefererence... [13:04] Riddell: how about https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuLucidSpecs (like we did for Jaunty) [13:07] ach: Thanks. [13:07] uh, and now is wireless doesn't work anymore. knetworkmanger does not react when I click in the wpa2 wlan [13:08] ach: It says kdm stop/waiting. Is that normal? [13:08] No, it's not [13:08] Good clue. [13:09] Riddell: ^^^ Any suggestions? [13:10] rgreening: Fix my laptop before you start worrying about the next release. [13:11] ScottK: check you've ubuntu14 rev of kdm. There was a fix to now conflict/Breaks with new usplash [13:13] Looks like maybe i have 13 [13:13] agateau: How do I tell quassel to use the indicator? [13:14] ScottK: there should be an option somewhere [13:14] * agateau starts Karmic Quassel [13:14] agateau: I didn't find it. [13:15] konversation patched too for new indicator? [13:15] ach: yes [13:15] Yes. [13:15] it's in Interface / Notifications [13:15] there is an ugly check box in the bottom [13:15] (shame on me) [13:16] ScottK: can you approve and let uploads to main go in ? [13:16] ScottK: I have a patched kdebluetooth waiting [13:16] Tonio_: No. That needs ubuntu-release approval. Unless it's beta critical, it needs to wait [13:17] ScottK: kk [13:17] critical I'(d say no, but we'll receive compains about that :) [13:17] ScottK / agateau: actually, with KDE integration, there should be a checkbox in KDE's "Configure Notifications" [13:17] ScottK: any idea what's the status of boot splash ? [13:18] ah right, no, it's only in Interface /Notifications [13:18] * Sput confuzzled [13:18] Which I don't see it. [13:18] Tonio_: No. [13:18] it's *not* in "Configure Notifications" [13:19] I don't see it at all. === _wstephenson is now known as wstephenson [13:20] hmmm, I can't test :) [13:20] I cannot see it either [13:20] sure it's built with ayatana support (check the configure messages)? [13:21] agateau: Can you look into this? I need to get my laptop fixed and get to $WORK. [13:21] It's here for me, did you look at Quassel configure dialog or at the generic "Configure notification" dialog [13:21] ? [13:21] ScottK: ^ [13:22] agateau: Both [13:22] agateau: I dont see it here either. What version of quassel and are you running a local build or from the main archive [13:22] both here :) [13:22] rgreening: local build, need to distupgrade [13:23] * agateau tries installed package [13:23] ooooh [13:23] * rgreening think the patch isnt in [13:23] ach: You called it. I updated and it worked. [13:23] when built with KDE support, the page where I added my checkbox is not here [13:24] Riddell: Looks like my upgrade problem was solved by the current kdm. I guess I upgraded slightly too soon. [13:24] So I can confirm that last upload was really needed. [13:25] #IFDEF agateau #define PATCH=0 #ENDIF [13:25] * agateau adds an entry to his TODO list [13:25] ScottK: good, but still same on logout: no greeter. I can see kdm_greeter is started + 2 dbus instances but no login prompt. So maybe dbus is blocking for whatever reason? [13:25] There's an open bug on that. [13:26] ScottK: yes, I filed this bug ;) [13:27] I think Riddell had some ideas about it, but I'm not sure what. [13:27] Riddell: I started this page for ... so we can keep track of ideas for upcoming UDS... https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuLucidSpecs [13:27] It's on the list of stuff that we know has to get fixed before release. [13:27] rgreening: Start with "Make translations no suck" [13:28] agateau: hmmm, from my cursory glance on the code it should be there, but maybe we do something fancy with KDE's native dialog :) [13:28] ScottK: I thought that was addressed for Karmic [13:28] rgreening: Only progress. We don't appear to be all the way to "Not suck". [13:28] ok [13:28] * rgreening adds translations to spec list to write [13:28] Sput: ok [13:28] ScottK: good that Riddell has some ideas, I run out of them. So I spend my time why I no longer can connect anymore to the wpa2 wireless here. [13:29] ach: OK. I'm connected to wpa2 right now. [14:04] ach: try killall knetworkmanager; rm ~/.kde/share/config/network*; knetworkmanager [14:04] rgreening: good idea === rickspencer3 is now known as rickspencer3-afk === Quintasan1 is now known as Quintasan === allee-k__ is now known as allee-k [15:03] Is KDE 4.3.2 scheduled? [15:04] It's due to be tagged October 1st [15:04] and released the 6th [15:04] leaving 9 days before final freeze [15:05] No problem. [15:07] Where do I find the option to turn the "Ayatana" notifications on? === Guest2025 is now known as foursixnine [15:10] ScottK: inside the system tray settings dialog === dendrobates is now known as dendro-afk [15:11] That seems obscure. [15:11] Thanks. [15:15] You're welcome. [15:18] Anybody an idea what the problem could be that cut&paste on kde apps doesn't work anymore, but on the other one it still does? [15:19] agateau: It seems with your notifications enabled visual notifications get queued up, but audible ones don't so they get out of sync. [15:20] ScottK: wow [15:20] not sure i can do something for this [15:20] :/ [15:20] It does seem a bit odd since they don't relate. [15:20] One is wondering what the ping was for. [15:21] I can see how it is a problem, [15:22] but right now a notification goes this way: app -> knotify, [15:22] if it's a sound knotify plays it [15:22] if it's a bubble it sends it to plasma [15:22] since my code is in plasma, [15:22] maco: ping [15:23] I do not have access to the sound part [15:23] So this is a good piece of architectural feedback for KDE when they implement something to stop flooding [15:23] indeed [15:24] Isn't the Desktop experience team involved with such things? [15:24] txwikinger_work: Who does agateau work for? [15:24] :D [15:24] quizz time! [15:24] I think there is at most a zero percent chance of Ayatana notifications getting adopted by KDE as long as they are actionless, but there are still points of useful feedback that can and should be given to KDE. [15:26] seele_: pong === dendro-afk is now known as dendrobates [15:31] JontheEchidna: Is it on purpose that Konversation's systray icon is absent? [15:32] that's the upstream default setting [15:32] OK [15:33] Last I used it, I remebered it being there. [15:33] Thanks [15:34] anyone tried encrypted home directory in karmic? [15:37] I'll try it on my netbook if I get time to do a reinstall for beta testing. [15:41] * rgreening is expecting 2xmini10v oct12th [15:44] Riddell: I am currently installin kne with that option [15:45] neversfelde: it crashed for me when using it with OEM install so let me know what happens [15:51] agateau: I think bug 437999 is another indicator crasher (this is with your fix from the other day) [15:51] Launchpad bug 437999 in kdepim "kontact crashed with SIGSEGV on start" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/437999 [15:52] JontheEchidna: oh [15:52] * agateau looks [15:52] thanks :) [15:59] Riddell: no problem here. I can install OEm in a vm, if that is needed (and it works in karmic)? [15:59] it works otherwise [16:05] * hunger just reported a bug about powerdevil not being able to set backlight brightness. [16:06] It should work according to the kde bugtracker... so maybe it is something in the xorg or kernel layer instead of kdebase. [16:06] mm that could be anywhere between linux, udev, hal, X, solid and powerdevil [16:08] More love for the powerdevil patch: http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2009/09/why-distributions-shouldnt-ship-development-versions/ [16:09] Riddell: I know:-) My hope was that someone had an idea on how to debug this. [16:09] mm, that's painful, I wrote a response in a comment but he hasn't approved it [16:09] xbacklight does not work either, so it probably is not kdebase per se. [16:13] the translation on this system is in chaos, anyone ese having problems with this? [16:13] seems to happen after upgrading with the last language packs [16:14] translations were mostly ok when I tested yesterday [16:14] I'll test it when I do the alternate CDs [16:14] if translations are severely broken in beta, we're gonna get a lot of crap [16:15] I'll try it on my netbook [16:16] Riddell: just syncing the kub cd's now [16:32] How should a display backlight show up in HAL? [16:32] * hunger can not find anything containing back in hal-device output (except for network related stuff). [16:32] I have.. udi = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/computer_backlight' info.addons = {'hald-addon-generic-backlight'} (string list) [16:34] Nothing like that here... so it is hal or below. [16:35] Riddell: I don't think comments are moderated on that blog. Mine appeared immediately. [16:40] Did the final IRC decision get made yet? [16:41] I think we'll need to stick with Quassel on netbook as the Konversation config dialogue doesn't fit on 576 tall display [16:41] Ah, looks like I need a special kernel module for this:-/ [16:45] ScottK: re martin's blog, with the way he wrote it he makes it sound like kubuntu ships that way, not that you are preparing a seperate installation for it [16:45] people can install regular kubuntu if they want [16:46] seele_: True. We had a decent dialgoue in the comments [16:46] seele_: I think he's totally right on powerdevil though. [16:52] agateau: Did you not implement the longer notification for longer text? seele_'s message ^^^ was on a notification for me and I coulnd't read it all before it went away. [16:53] ScottK: I did, but maybe the algorithm needs some adjustment === rickspencer3-afk is now known as rickspencer3 [16:53] agateau: It didn't seem to last any longer than normal. [16:54] ScottK: could be a bug (I tend to produce those from time to time) :) [16:54] * agateau checks it's actually implemented [16:57] ScottK: oups, it's not [16:57] adding to my TODO [16:57] OK [16:58] agateau: Whatever opinions I have about notify-osd they will be based on having used it and not just theory. [16:58] * agateau likes this [16:59] Please figure out getting the indicator stuff turned on in Quassel so I can try that too. [17:00] it's in my TODO, but I am busy with Kontact not starting at the moment, [17:00] which sounds a bit more critical :) [17:00] That'd be a higher priority, yes. [17:04] * ach is working mode ignores lower right corner completely and is a fan of dialog in center of screen (helped on e.g. on mac os x several times already.) [17:07] neversfelde: translations seem good for me installing from a CD, are you sure you have all the langpacks installed? what language are you looking at? [17:07] Riddell: german and everything is ok on my netbook [17:07] seems to be a problem with this machine [17:20] Riddell: JontheEchidna: uploaded a new patchset for kmail to fix 437999 [17:20] http://people.canonical.com/~agateau/indicate/kmail-4.3.1-20090929.tar.bz2 [17:20] have to go [17:22] ach: Needs to be solved upstream (the powerdevel thing). === pvandewyngaerde is now known as Guest50779 [17:38] hello i am having keyboard problems in KDE, in gnome it works, only in kde i can type nothing. even the virtual keyboard does not work [17:42] Riddell: desktop meeting and your name was mentioned [17:42] Riddell, desktop team meeting? [17:46] rickspencer3: are you still looking to move back to DC? [17:46] seele, in team meeting atm, but not really, why? [17:47] rickspencer3: just wondering, you mentioned it a while ago [17:47] seele, we did some serious house hunting, but then decided that moving is a pita, and we decided to wait for a sign [17:50] rickspencer3: oh well. maybe you'll get one some day :) [17:50] apachelogger: Which planet? [17:50] all o'em [17:51] Oooh there is akubuntu drama on planet gnome? [17:51] * Daskreech heads on over [17:51] * apachelogger puts on his ninja uwagi and goes on war path [17:55] http://news.cnet.com/8301-30684_3-10363025-265.html === Guest50779 is now known as pvandewyngaerde [17:57] how can i troubleshoot keyboard input issues ?? i have no X keyboard input in kde, but it works in gnome [18:07] Riddell: a user in the german forum confirmed problems with the translations after the last upgrade [18:08] every test installation I did was ok, so probably a problem with upgraded systems [18:11] mhhh [18:11] translations [18:16] karmic does work pretty well for me today by the way. [18:16] All the important stuff works. [18:16] * hunger has not tried the netbook edition, that was to annoying the last time he tried it. [18:17] at least some nice words :) [18:28] kubotu: identica dent !kubuntu teaser: Project Timelord (name not approved yet) [18:28] status updated [18:34] apachelogger: other than the kwin kickup What is the kubuntu blowup on the planet? [18:35] comments on nixternals blog [18:35] kubuntu not getting any attention blog [18:35] ok [18:35] previous kubuntu translations sux blogs [18:35] well how much canonical attention is it getting [18:35] Well they do [18:36] Kubuntu gets attention just not vocally from the people who vocally say they officailly support it [18:36] as if anyone would care about that if the product was awesome enough [18:36] ScottK: you could try putting the following in quasselclient.conf: [18:36] [Notification] [18:36] Indicator\Enabled=true [18:36] maybe that works [18:36] (after restarting Quassel) [18:37] apachelogger: Mindshare is the currency for FOSS projects [18:37] Sure. [18:37] That and participation. [18:37] Being awesome will still get you left as dead after a while [18:38] * apachelogger does not see how kubuntu is awesome though :P [18:38] :-) [18:39] Sput: Does it matter where in the file it goes? [18:39] ScottK: no [18:39] apachelogger: Thanks. [18:39] ScottK: no, but you should make sure you don't already have a [Notification] section [18:39] OK [18:39] (and obviously it should be places in between/after other sections ;-)) [18:39] *placed [18:40] apachelogger: Ah and The Kubuntu is irresponsible post has been nearly retracted [18:40] daskreech: which one would that be? [18:41] http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2009/09/why-distributions-shouldnt-ship-development-versions/ [18:42] daskreech: there are larger things at works to get martin that pissed though [18:42] Would someone ping me please.... [18:42] ScottK: ping [18:43] ScottK: sure [18:43] ScottK: pung [18:43] Thanks [18:43] Does Kubuntu have a list of challenges facing Kubuntu ? [18:44] sooo all distributions should only allow what upstream dictates? [18:44] claydoh: I doubt he's saying that [18:44] maybe a little [18:44] daskreech: Kubuntu's challenge numero uno: Kubuntu [18:45] apachelogger: State it in terms of teh objectives of Kubuntu [18:45] the [18:45] pardon? [18:46] ScottK: dropped you a mail [18:47] * ScottK is in a meeting, but will try to get a look at it. [18:47] Sput: No luck. [18:47] ScottK: hmmm, well, I'm delegating this to agateau then :) [18:47] OK. [18:47] Fair enough. [18:47] notifications in KDE-mode get some special treatment to keep them consistent [18:47] ScottK: sure, nothing that needs immediate action [18:48] only somewhat immediate ;) [18:48] * Sput has plans to rewrite everything notification-related for 0.6 anyways [18:51] sebas: ping [18:51] seele_: pong [18:53] apachelogger: If there are challenges facing kubuntu it has to be challeneges that prevent it from achieving it's directive as a distro [18:54] daskreech: well, what is the directive anyway? [18:54] so have the challenges framed as an obstacle to acheiving that [18:54] Note: We don't know our objective Challenge number one :) [18:55] what do you mean we dont know our objective? our objective is to deliver a user-friendly KDE distribution with a focus on home users more than corporate users [18:55] ScottK: ping [18:56] seele_: do we do that now? [18:56] * apachelogger coughs about konqueror being broken for all of $user websites [18:56] pgquiles: Pong, but I'm in a meeting, so I can't give you much attention. [18:56] ScottK: ok, ping me back when you are done [18:57] * ScottK will endevour to remember [18:58] heck, I first tried out Kubuntu because it was a single-cd, kde-only distro [19:00] seele_: :-) [19:00] claydoh: I am merely suggesting that we are not true to our supposed objective at times [19:00] so where can we find these objectives laid out? Or maybe we have too many of them? [19:01] apachelogger: All websites is a strong statement but agreed teh Web browser solution is an issue what is the problem facing shipping a user friendly kde browser? [19:01] we cannot find them :) [19:01] here begins the fun [19:01] do-over! :) [19:01] claydoh: We have one objective. We are trying to see what issues we have in getting to that objective [19:02] * claydoh 's head spins [19:02] daskreech: well, does the user benefit from having a kde browser [19:02] meaning does it have to be a kde browser for the sake of being a kde-only distribution [19:02] as a user, I happen to use Konqueror 99% [19:02] that is another thing [19:02] do we always make decissions on what is best for the target audience or what is best for us :P [19:03] apachelogger: Yes [19:03] * apachelogger might remind that the amount of SRUs done on KDE packages is towards 0 [19:03] Why is that? [19:04] obviously not because we think that the target audience would benefit from a working product [19:04] ...it would seem [19:04] Obviously :) [19:05] apachelogger: i dont knwo if we do that now, but afaik that is our goal [19:05] seele_: yeah, it is a pretty bad definition though, since it can be overriden at any given point [19:06] how so? [19:06] as I tried to outline :) [19:06] you mean because it isn't written down or because there is a hand with control over what we do? [19:06] SRU thing is a issue. Rather than saying it's obvious what the problem is maybe we can find out if tha's so? [19:07] seele_: because we do not control ourselfs what we do, and we cant do that because the objective is rather unprecise [19:08] no matter whether written down or not, there is a lot of interpretation available for the stated objective [19:08] apachelogger: How would you differentiate what is good for the user and good for us? [19:09] Where us is the distro of course :) [19:10] daskreech: I'd like to use the term target audience ... currently I am not sure target audience matches users though [19:10] anyway, since everything should be seen from a 'what use does it have for the target audience' POV [19:10] what use does having no KDE 3 apps on the CD have? [19:11] I mean, I am all for saving CD space for the sake of more translations, then again I look at the translations and rather have none on the CD at all, because some of them were quite embarassing at times [19:11] so I doubt translations could be used as an argument here [19:13]