=== fader_ is now known as fader|away === cjwatson_ is now known as cjwatson === slangase` is now known as slangasek === swoody_ is now known as swoody === asac_ is now known as asac === cjwatson_ is now known as cjwatson === Wajih is now known as MaWaLe === dholbach_ is now known as dholbach === cjwatson_ is now known as cjwatson [12:43] 1 === slangase` is now known as slangasek === imlad is now known as imlad|away === fader|away is now known as fader_ === imlad|away is now known as imlad === robbiew-afk is now known as robbiew === rgreening_ is now known as rgreening === nxvl_ is now known as nxvl === marjomercado is now known as marjo === zul_ is now known as zul [16:00] so, welcome all to this translations meeting! [16:00] #startmeeting [16:00] Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is dpm. [16:00] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [16:00] hi [16:00] who's there? o/ [16:00] hi all [16:00] aloha [16:00] hi [16:01] hiya adiroiban, kelemengabor, cjwatson, happyaron! [16:01] czajkowski, I meant, not Colin :) [16:01] so, shall we get started with the first topic? [16:02] sure [16:02] Adi, it is yours [16:02] [TOPIC] Decide templates prioirty and order in the Ubuntu Templates list [16:02] New Topic: Decide templates prioirty and order in the Ubuntu Templates list [16:04] well. [16:04] I think you all know the wikipage [16:04] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/TemplatesPriority [16:04] any comments regarding the categories ? [16:04] shall we have new ones, or remove some of them [16:04] ? === thekorn_ is now known as thekorn [16:05] adiroiban, are you talking about the categories for prioritisation? [16:05] yes [16:05] I think we could add UNR, for example [16:06] ok. where ? [16:06] 3 ? [16:06] I was thinking to consider UNR at cat 2 - Ubuntu specific stuff [16:07] adiroiban, I'd just put it anywhere in the list for now. I think we should talk whether we want to 'mix' templates of different distros (ubuntu, kubuntu, unr) or give Ubuntu priority [16:07] What do you guys think? [16:08] for UNR . Since we don't have to many packages I think we can put them at cat 2 - Ubunte specific [16:08] I think it would be better to handle Ubuntu/Kubuntu separately [16:09] I'm an Ubuntu user so I would say to have Ubuntu+UNR in the first place... and the Kubuntu / Xubuntu / Edubuntu [16:09] then [16:09] I'm also up for having u [16:09] Ubuntu first, due to a bigger user base [16:10] so at least the ones we're here seem to agree on that [16:10] * Riddell disagrees [16:10] Any opinion from Kubuntu users? [16:10] :) [16:10] ;) [16:10] why? [16:11] it would probably be best to have a list of prority templates for each variant, Ubuntu Desktop, Ubuntu Server, Kubuntu etc [16:12] adiroiban: why? "I'm an Ubuntu user" isn't a good rationale for this [16:12] I would not add Ubuntu Server in the equation [16:12] since most of the apps are CLI [16:12] Riddell, yes, but one of those variants should go on top [16:12] we've got only one list [16:13] Riddell: :) I agree, I will also go with Ubuntu due to a bigger user base [16:14] dpm: well whatever, it would be nice to have a way for people to see "have I done the most important templates in Xubuntu" [16:14] adiroiban: "Ubuntu" is confusing terminology here, "Ubuntu Desktop" is more clear for the desktop edition [16:15] Riddell, yes, we can prioritise per variant, that's not a problem. The question is whether we put all variant's templates one after another or whether we mix them [16:17] i.e. a) first all Ubuntu Desktop templates (prioritised), then Kubuntu templates (prioritised), or b) Higher priority Ubuntu templates, higher prio Kubuntu, less prio Ubuntu... etc [16:17] may as well bring some order to it [16:18] although I'd fear people having the attitude of "I use Ubuntu so I'll ignore this batch of Kubuntu ones" [16:18] :) [16:19] What I can do for a start is to provide a list of all templates per variant (desktop, unr, kubuntu) [16:20] i.e. those in the default installs, like the one I sent to the list yesterday or the day before [16:20] those list are very noisy [16:20] lists [16:20] noisy? [16:20] a lot of CLI apps [16:20] it's a subset of a bigger list we've got in Launchpad [16:21] we can remove the CLI apps from the list [16:21] for Ubuntu we can go with GNOME templates + Ubuntu Specific + some other one manualy selected [16:21] and maybe we can do the same for Kubuntu [16:22] yes, I agree, but you still need somewhere you can get an overview of the templates [16:22] we can get the GNOME templates from here: http://l10n.gnome.org/languages/ro/gnome-2-28/ui/ [16:22] we can use the wiki for updating such a list [16:23] hmm, yes, but I've got two concerns with that a) you have to look at them and update them manually [16:23] b) it might list modules which are not installed by default [16:23] it doesn't contain [16:23] things like f-spot [16:23] or tomboy [16:24] since they're not official gnome modules [16:24] yes. they will be manualy added in the list [16:24] FYI: I've talked with Jeroen during the last UDS in Barcelona about this template grouping. The Rosetta team didn't have time yet to implement it and I will poke about it next week during the LP Translations sprint. [16:24] just like the other Ubuntu/Kubuntu specific packates [16:24] dpm, http://l10n.gnome.org/modules , but may need some work then [16:25] the list of all modules is also noisy as there are many obsolete modules [16:26] * happyaron I have to say, yup [16:26] adiroiban, which ones are obsolete? If they are, we should disable them in LP [16:26] oh I see [16:26] I was talking about the gnome modules [16:26] you meant the GNOME one [16:26] yep [16:26] yup :) [16:27] well, it seems these are the two main points [16:28] 1) Do we mix templates or do we list them peioritised one variant after another? [16:28] prioritised [16:28] 2) Categories [16:28] of prioritisation [16:28] and perhaps 3) [16:29] How do we set priorities? Variants list? Manual wiki? [16:30] for setting priorities: we can start with a bath update (with some help from Rosetta devs) and then have a wiki, subscribe to changes and do manual updates [16:30] also if Rosetta dev are to busy I can dedicate my time to set the priorities for all templates [16:31] adiroiban, I think it might be best to do a batch set, it's 1600 templates! :) [16:31] the plan seems good to me though [16:31] well I hope we will only have a maximum of 500 templates to set [16:32] and the other one will not be changed [16:32] also I can create a curl based script for making those changes using the web interface [16:32] if you can do that, sounds good to me [16:33] it's not hard to do some post request from the command line [16:33] as my accont has the required template update permissions [16:33] ok [16:34] going back to our major problem [16:34] so 3) seems sorted. Shall we do a call for feedback on points 1) and 2) on the ML? [16:34] since we don't have to many templates in UNR i think we can mix them with Ubuntu Desktop [16:35] ok, yes [16:35] since Xubuntu in not in main , those templates are not in Rosetta [16:35] that's right, we're only looking at the (desktop, kubuntu, unr) variants [16:36] and we have to decide if we should also mix Ubuntu (mostly GNOME) and Kubuntu (moslty KDE) templates [16:36] or desktop + kubuntu, if we mix unr with desktop [16:37] I'd go for not mixing them, and if we do, only mix those which are specific to the distro [16:37] dpm, adiroiban: my idea in my talks with jtv was to use debtags for classification and add a combobox in Rosetta to choose which template group to display. Then the templates for that group are filtered and displayed by priority. [16:37] my first idea was to mix them, but to have some manualy define exception so that for example nautilus or dolphin could be listed in the top of the list [16:38] like here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/TemplatesPriority#Templates%20with%20a%20high%20user%20visiblity [16:39] the only problem with manual defined priority list is that we should find someone willing to dedicate the required time to creat the list. [16:40] I can help with the Ubuntu top priority packages [16:40] Riddell: do you think we can find someone from Kubuntu willing to help with this issue? [16:41] I can do a crude version easily enough (and I don't think there's any reliable way to do anything better) [16:41] ok [16:41] Riddell, that would be a good start, though [16:41] so we should have the top 50 temples for Ubuntu and top 50 for Kubuntu [16:41] or 100 [16:42] the idea is to have the most important templates / the visible to 95% of users [16:43] Riddell: feel free to add them in the wiki and send them via email [16:43] since we don't have to many participant at this meeting [16:43] we can try to get some feedback via ubuntu-translators ML [16:43] in order to see if we should mix them or not [16:44] yes, I agree [16:44] pro [16:45] does anyone want to send an e-mail to the ML to ask feedback on that? Otherwise I can do it [16:45] I can do it [16:46] any other comments regarding those categories ? [16:46] [ACTION] adiroiban to send e-mail to the ubuntu-translators ML to ask for feedback on whether to mix desktop/kubuntu templates or not [16:46] ACTION received: adiroiban to send e-mail to the ubuntu-translators ML to ask for feedback on whether to mix desktop/kubuntu templates or not [16:47] should we add or remove some of them ? is the order ok ? [16:47] IMO they look good (good work Adi), although I would perhaps not put the bootloader at the top [16:48] those are the first text from a live cd [16:48] the question is whether most of the users install K/Ubuntu or simply use it [16:49] i.e. someone else installed it [16:49] yep. but I think we should have them translated as a top priority [16:49] since a full review of the system will also include the install process [16:50] also I think that we have many users that just try the livecd [16:50] without installing it [16:51] and the bootloader contains the language switcher and the „Try Ubuntu without any changes on the computer” [16:51] ok, that's a good point. [16:51] * happyaron agree with Adi [16:52] but still, there's d-i and ubiquity which people using Ubuntu in a e.g. library or school will never see [16:52] anyway, I don't have a problem with them being on top [16:52] I'm just mentioning it [16:53] they are just a few packages, so it can be refined afterwards if we want to anyway [16:53] dpm: you are also right... most of the non-technical users will not use d-i [16:53] dpm: if your admin is unable to install Ubuntu because the installer is not translated, you won't even see the other parts :P [16:53] :p [16:53] hehehe [16:53] so I think it's important too [16:53] :) [16:54] so, it's 3 against one, you get it on top, then :P [16:54] :D [16:54] so, now we come to the point where we have to decide whether we want to continue the meeting for longer than the planned hour :) [16:55] we should postpone the ubuntu docs part [16:55] and make a common ubuntu-docs and ubuntu-translators meeting [16:55] i have just added it in the agenda as a reminder [16:55] ok, sounds good to me [16:56] thanks Adi [16:56] I know kelemengabor is keen to see help.ubuntu.com translated :) [16:56] sure! [16:56] :) === imlad is now known as imlad|away [16:57] sugo.ubuntu.hu is working nicely, help.u.c should have that love too [16:57] is there any meeting at 16 UTC? [16:57] kelemengabor as far as I know we will not have multilanguage support in h.u.c [16:57] no, it seems there isn't [16:58] a meeting [16:58] rather we will help loco teams to set up their own help pages [16:58] and help wiki [16:58] and suport forums [17:00] well, that's another good option [17:00] next topic/feedback: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-translations [17:01] [TOPIC] Ubuntu Translations project feedback [17:01] New Topic: Ubuntu Translations project feedback [17:01] do you think we are doing the right thing by grouping all bugs under ubuntu-translations project, or is just a waste of time ? [17:02] adiroiban, I think it's useful to a) get an overview of translations bugs and b) be able to subscribe to bug mail, BUT... [17:02] we should do a better job at triaging the bugs [17:03] some of them are only added to the u-t project and are not followed up [17:03] so perhaps [17:03] we should organise translation hug days for triaging [17:04] or adopting translation bugs :) [17:04] dpm: maybe we should clarify what we use the available bug states for [17:04] dpm: like currently we only use New, Invalid and Fix Released. :) [17:04] ArneGoetje, yes, you are right, we should document the process a bit, even for ourselves :) [17:04] bug days are a good idea [17:05] the Kubuntu translations day a while back was very useful in fixing or identifying i18n bugs [17:05] so perhaps we could do the same for Ubuntu [17:06] I'd participate :) [17:06] cool [17:07] going back to what ArneGoetje was saying, also maybe people should be encouraged to assign bugs in the ubuntu-translations project to themselves [17:07] even if they can't fix them, they could take care of tracking them [17:07] and pestering the relevant devs :P [17:07] that should be the actual solution [17:08] +1. Then we also know about who is working on which bugs [17:08] but I don't know if we could find the required force to drive those changes/action/work [17:09] well, we have to start somewhere :) And I think it is already a big improvement to the wiki page we had before, so again, good job on starting the project! [17:11] we should start a page documenting the ubuntu-translations project [17:11] Maybe with a section under "Policies" in the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/KnowledgeBase/ page [17:11] on how to report translation bugs [17:11] and the workflow [17:13] dpm, +1 from me [17:13] ok. so basicaly we are on the right track... but we need to work harde :p [17:13] harder [17:13] :) [17:14] ok [17:14] I think it's enough for today [17:15] I will try to arrange a common ubuntu-doc and ubuntu-translators meeting [17:15] and see how if the collaboration between those teams is ok [17:15] we could perhaps have a short round of Q+A, if you like, or leave it here. What do you guys say? [17:15] or where we can improve [17:17] it looks like we don't need the q+a part [17:17] ok, sounds good to me [17:18] so guys, thanks a lot for your participation [17:18] thanks [17:18] see you around! [17:19] * dpm claps [17:19] #endmeeting [17:19] Meeting finished at 11:19. [17:19] #ubuntu-translators more precisly === jsalisbury_ is now known as jsalisbury === imlad|away is now known as imlad === GrueMaster1 is now known as GrueMaster === nixternal_ is now known as nixternal === juliux is now known as juliux_hsv === nxvl_ is now known as nxvl === fader_ is now known as fader|away [22:55] I'm here, too [22:55] afternoon [22:55] hello [22:55] 'evening Technoviking ! [22:55] hello, all :) [22:56] hey forumsmatthew & ubuntugeek [22:56] Hi [22:56] greetings [22:58] FC meeting? [22:59] Yes [22:59] Amaranth, yep [22:59] Shall we get this party started.. [22:59] ready when you are [22:59] I'm ready, so pretty light agenda today. [22:59] Let's talk about the forums upgrade. [23:00] Have you looked at the strides made by phpBB lately? [23:00] Yes! [23:00] I think we need to start fresh by removing these forums and putting up a new fresh forum with phpbb [23:01] start over, clean slate [23:01] it would satisfy the "hey, this isn't open source" crowd [23:01] W00t ! [23:01] True it would [23:01] yeah, that definitely sounds nice :) [23:02] you guys take all the fun out of trolling. ;) [23:02] boo [23:02] we need to port over the IE6-like error pages though ;-) [23:02] Experts we have become [23:02] lol [23:02] Anyways, we are a few revisions behind on our forum software patches so I would like to schedule a downtime to put those patches in. [23:03] when would be good for you? [23:03] we are looking at about 20 minutes of downtime. I'm thinking tomorrow morning around 8am EST. [23:03] I think any time would be fine except during the glocal jam and 9.10 release day [23:03] Right [23:04] that should work. We could put up an announcement today and leave it up until we're done [23:04] minimize the freak outs [23:04] announcement definitely needed [23:04] Yep, agreed. I'll take care of that after the meeting. [23:04] +1 [23:04] we are probably seeing higher traffic due to the beta already [23:04] only 10000:) [23:04] yeah, it's not too bad atm [23:06] any other thoughts or business? [23:06] Traffic is pretty on par with last month [23:06] Technoviking, :) [23:07] There was talk in the mailing of restricting sigs for naughty and new users [23:07] Yes.. that will be interesting to implement [23:07] is it possible without templete voodoo? [23:08] Yeah, just more complex voodoo in the backend.. but very doable. [23:08] I can think of a couple of ways (new user group with auto advance after X posts, like we do with the user title bit) [23:08] my way would require less hacking, but wouldn't be as fun [23:08] The question is how many posts before we promote the user? [23:08] to have the ability to use sig's [23:08] 15 was discussed I think [23:09] I say betwen 10-25, just enough to bore the spammers [23:09] I'd say something like the order of 15-25 is reasonable [23:09] How about 25 and be a member for 7 days [23:09] I would say 10 should be enough [23:09] 10 and a week sounds good to me [23:09] we could also limit those new accounts to posting in non-cafe locations [23:09] jdong: +1 [23:09] jdong: +1 [23:09] +1 [23:10] -1 [23:10] re: non-cafe. Just to make the "I'm going to troll by creating a duplicate account thing" a bit harder [23:10] we need more then 10 people [23:10] hi guys [23:10] okay [23:11] hey, jcastro . welcome [23:11] sorry I am late, I thought this was next week for some reason [23:11] 25 ubuntugeek ? [23:11] 'lo all =) [23:11] I'm okay with 25. any higher seems excessive [23:11] hey bodhi_zazen [23:11] hi, bodhi [23:11] yeah I think 25 is as high as I'd like to go... [23:11] sorry I am late [23:11] I've been at forums before that used 25 posts for posting IMG links [23:12] same here [23:12] and users tended to find that excessive === yofel_ is now known as yofel [23:13] jcastro: we are just finishing one thing and then we can chat with you [23:13] so 25 and one week [23:14] Technoviking: +1 [23:14] okay [23:14] yeah, I'm okay with 25 posts / 7days. +1 [23:14] If we get many complaint about the limit we can revitist [23:14] revisit [23:14] :) [23:14] 10 posts is easy for a spammer [23:14] good point [23:15] I still have a feeling that 7 days is hard for them :) [23:15] but either way, we can fine-tune the parameters later on [23:15] having the framework there is most important [23:15] yep [23:15] +1 [23:15] any thoughts about the "limited to non-cafe posts" idea? good/bad/not worth implementing? [23:16] I would -1 that [23:16] well was that not 25 posts in support area ? [23:16] I that would incite a riot :) [23:16] hmm I'm initially -1 [23:16] either we have a cafe or we do not [23:16] 25 support posts is quite a lot [23:16] Since cafe posts don't count anways [23:16] we don't want to be suggesting that new users should try hard to post 25 things in the support areas [23:16] that's reasonable [23:16] forumsmatthew: I like it, I think we need a user group for people who get naughty in the cafe, but still allow access to the tech areas [23:17] I think moderation should be with a "light touch" as topics in the cafe are controversial and we do not want to appear biased [23:17] topics in the cafe shouldn't be controversial [23:17] can we prevent one member to post in one specific thread ? [23:17] that was what the now-failed backyard was for [23:17] bap: permissions are on a category level [23:17] lol [23:18] ubuntugeek, ok [23:18] Shall we discuss items with jcastro now [23:18] I'm convinced we don't need this. However, since it had been brought up in the staff forum and we had not had an opportunity to discuss it, I thought we should [23:19] yep [23:19] hi everyone! Thanks for having me. [23:19] /wave [23:19] our pleasure [23:19] hi [23:19] hello jcastro [23:19] So what I would like to do is collect a set of concerns/ideas/whatever from you for things the community team can help you with [23:19] hey Jorge [23:20] so basically, what can the community team do in the 10.04 cycle for you [23:20] * jcastro waves back [23:20] jcastro, do you have specific ideas ? [23:20] well I guess admittedly I'm not very familiar with what the Community Team does [23:21] Jdong: me either [23:21] well, so for example lately I've been monitoring the karmic forums [23:21] and helping getting calls for testing out. [23:22] jdong: ok so basically, there's me to do upstream relations, daniel does internal developer stuff, and david does translations [23:22] jcastro: upstream, as in upstream with respect to Ubuntu? [23:22] so is there any areas in the forums where you feel we could improve interaction with other parts of the project for example? [23:23] jdong: yes, so like, Debian, GNOME, etc. [23:23] we have a devlink forum that is not much used by devs [23:23] gotcha [23:23] bapoumba: yeah, I was just thinking that [23:23] :) [23:23] improving communications between us and the developers is definitely a big TODO area [23:23] bapoumba: but lately I think 23meg and I have just been posting the calls for help directly in the karmic forum [23:23] jdong: I try :) [23:23] which I think works better anyway [23:23] I still get the feelings that a good chunk of the developer community are generally disinterested in looking at the forums :) [23:24] (or use it as a running gag) [23:24] jcastro, yes [23:24] Amaranth: I do too ;-) [23:24] jdong been better in release cycle [23:24] +1 on being disinterested in looking at forums. [23:24] jcastro, is there still a need for the devlink forum ? [23:25] yeah but do you really need/want all the developers reading the forums? What would that accomplish? [23:25] I think getting feedback from forum users to developers is more than enough [23:25] bapoumba: I am not sure. Maybe? [23:25] jcastro: well we're primarily interested in getting information (useful) from the forums to the developers, and vice-versa [23:25] jcastro, I'm just asking [23:25] jcastro, many threads get created there and get moved to other forums [23:25] I don't blame the devs; the forums tend to have a poor signal to noise ratio [23:26] that is only naturally when you have a large freely-posting community [23:26] natural* [23:26] bapoumba: well, for me personally I think posting directly to the dev forum at the time gets more eyes on like calls for help and stuff [23:27] jcastro, okay :) [23:27] Wasn't there a forum team that was supposed to pass along interesting ideas and problems people were having to developers? [23:27] And/or encourage and help with writing bug reports [23:27] IMO that's happening [23:27] I've seen people start a topic, discuss, and then go file a bug and link it back [23:28] Amaranth, I think branstorm took over the flux of ideas [23:28] I find filing bug reports frustrating =) [23:28] *brainstorms [23:28] yeah but you can't get certain vibes from brainstorm [23:28] for example the 348573945 page thread on the software store wouldn't have happened on brainstorm [23:29] bodhi_zazen: ubuntu_bug FTW!!! [23:29] It may be my fault, but it does not seem the communication on bug reports is very good [23:29] it depends on the bug, the maintainer, and the quality of info left [23:29] jcastro: Getting forum complaints turned into bugs is a very good thing. [23:29] bodhi_zazen, like on forums, depends on who handles the thread [23:30] well the bugtracker is not the place for free conversation [23:30] which is a good thing (tm) [23:30] ScottK: I think that's happening decently. 23meg seems to be pretty good at whipping long threads into proper reports [23:30]