/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/10/02/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

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* marjo waves15:59
ttxo/16:00
* apw zones in16:00
* kees waves16:01
apwanyone got a copy of the agenda, mine seems to be missing16:01
* robbiew does the robot16:01
lool(I dont have much network and wont stay long anyway)16:01
* slangasek waves16:01
* asac__ waves16:01
* apw asks slangasek for a copy of the agenda16:01
ScottK\o16:01
slangaseksorry, beta work precluded me being able to prepare an agenda in advance16:01
ograyo16:02
apwoh16:02
robbiewhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-10-0216:02
slangasekoh hey16:02
njpatelhey16:02
slangasek#startmeeting16:02
MootBotMeeting started at 10:02. The chair is slangasek.16:02
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]16:02
slangasek[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-10-0216:02
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-10-0216:02
slangasekrobbiew: thank you :)16:02
slangasek[TOPIC] actions from previous meetings16:04
MootBotNew Topic:  actions from previous meetings16:04
slangasek  * cr3 to ensure that the QA team collects and processes feedback about the filebug redirect change16:04
slangasek  * cr3, marjo to follow through on netbooks missing from the hw certification lab16:04
slangasek  * davmor2 to work with ttx on creating a test plan for eucalyptus16:04
slangasek  * pitti to ensure that we have test plans/release notes for all specs16:05
slangasek  * lool to ask humanity upstream to prepare a colour revert for bug #430277 ('''Update Below''')16:05
ubottuLaunchpad bug 430277 in unr-meta "random icons are colorful while some other notification-area icons are dark" [High,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/43027716:05
slangasek   * Design team requested that we try to include the work from latest Humanity upstream tree which consists of:16:05
slangasek    * updated notification area icons, darker, so that they display nicely on the desktop16:05
slangasek    * new Humanity-Dark theme which is Humanity with lighter black and white notification area icons to display nicely under UNR16:05
slangasek   If we want this (release team and desktop team should decide too), Loic plans to put the new theme in the same binary package and update the UNR gconf settings in desktop-switcher and unr-default-settings.  This is still tracked in LP #430277.  The Humanity-Dark theme should "Inherit:" the Humanity theme so the new icons should make a minor difference in binary package size / CD size.16:05
slangasek  * slangasek to get linux-ec2 into main for beta ('''Done''')16:05
slangasek  * zul to get new ec2-init sorted today16:05
slangasek  * smoser to test vmbuilder patch to use germinate ('''Done''')16:05
slangasek  * slangasek to follow up with the kernel team wrt ARM, EC2 kernel16:05
slangasekrefreshes for beta (done, uploaded over the weekend)16:05
slangasekmarjo: cr3 mentioned to me yesterday that there was only one netbook still missing from the cert lab?16:05
marjoSeveral changes have been made to the wiki page which users are16:05
davmor2slangasek: I worked with ttx and will again on monday to update16:05
marjoredirected to in an effort to address issues raised.  The QA team is16:05
marjoalso actively monitoring the internet for feedback and issues regarding16:05
marjothe redirect.  We have also been monitoring newly reported bugs to see16:05
marjothe effect redirection has had.16:05
cr3slangasek: the netbook has arrived yesterday afternoon and it's been successfully tested16:06
marjoslangasek: i was going to cover that later16:06
marjobut, what cr3 said.16:06
slangasekcr3: that's the one mathiaz had to hand though, right?  So we've had a test of the hardware, but that unit's not staying in the cert lab?16:06
slangasekpitti not here to comment on test plans16:07
asac__slangasek: pitti said he followed up by mail on his spec/work-item action ... so thats done.16:07
cr3slangasek: that was the original plan, but the permanent netbook arrived when mathiaz was actually in the office handing over his own netbook :)16:07
slangasekasac__: ok, thanks16:07
slangasekcr3: ah, heh16:07
slangasekzul: ec2-init is "sorted", I guess?  I don't remember the details of that - was that about main inclusion?16:08
ttxslangasek: yes16:08
ttxthat was about sponsoring changes16:09
slangaseklool: if you don't have much time, should we take up the Humanity discussion later?16:09
slangasekttx: ok, good16:09
slangasek[TOPIC] QA Team16:09
MootBotNew Topic:  QA Team16:09
marjoKarmic Beta Test Report16:10
marjo2009-10-0216:10
marjo== Test Coverage ==16:10
marjoImage Test Coverage = 100%16:10
marjoTest Case Test Coverage = 99%16:10
marjoAlpha 6 Test Coverage = 58%16:10
marjo=== Untested test cases ===16:10
marjoKubuntu DVD i386 - Ubiquity OEM16:10
marjoKubuntu Netbook i386 - Wubi16:10
marjo=== Test Failure Analysis ===16:10
marjo15 Test Failures16:10
marjoFailure Rate = 15/194 = 8%16:10
marjoAlpha 6 Test Failure Rate = 15%16:10
marjoTesters ran out of time on two untested, otherwise we would have hit 100%!16:11
marjo== Bugs summary ==16:11
marjo=== Summary of Unfixed Issues ===16:11
marjo38 bugs unfixed16:11
marjoCritical - 016:11
marjoHigh - 1116:11
marjoMedium - 816:11
marjoLow - 416:11
marjoUndecided - 1516:11
marjo=== Summary of Fixed Issues ===16:11
marjo11 bugs fixed16:11
marjoCritical - 116:11
marjoHigh - 716:11
marjoLow - 116:11
marjoUndecided - 216:11
marjoBTW, a detailed test report will be available by email16:12
marjoany questions, so far?16:12
slangasekwill we still be able to get coverage of those 2 remaining test cases?  even though beta is out, it would be good to get the feedback in advance of final16:13
marjoslangasek: yes, will work w/ davmor2 & jdridell16:13
slangasekok, great16:13
davmor2I can kill em16:14
davmor2wubi will most likely fail16:14
marjoanything else, otherwise the emailed test report will be very detailed16:14
* slangasek notes that the "failure rate" is a bit misleading, since for most of those tests we also had (sometimes multiple) successful test results16:14
slangasekmarjo: I think that's good, thanks16:15
ScottKParticularly in the case of the Kubuntu Netbook Wubi test, since that's never worked.16:15
marjoscottk: point taken16:15
ograScottK, juet because you didnt try it on armel yet :P16:15
slangasekScottK: should wubi be removed from the KNE image for final?16:15
ogra*just16:15
ScottKslangasek: I suspect it will work now.16:16
ScottKIt just needs to be tested.16:16
slangasekoh16:16
cjwatsonwell, as well as the rest of wubi anyway16:16
slangasekok16:16
ScottKExactly.16:16
ScottKAFAIK this is the first milestone where we got wubi to work at all.16:16
ScottKThere were some Alpha 3 KNE specific issues, that I think got resolved and it'd be nice to know for sure.16:17
slangasekgiven the difficulties in getting wubi working this cycle, I think we need to not wait until the RC to re-test it16:17
ScottKAgreed.16:17
ScottKUnfortunately, I can't test it, so someone else will need to volunteer.16:17
slangasekmarjo, cjwatson, davmor2: would it be possible for you guys to coordinate some ongoing testing of wubi with the dailies between now and RC?16:17
davmor2I was going to16:18
marjoslangasek: yes, will work with them and ara, too16:18
slangasek[ACTION] marjo, davmor2 to coordinate ongoing testing of wubi with the dailies between now and RC16:18
MootBotACTION received:  marjo, davmor2 to coordinate ongoing testing of wubi with the dailies between now and RC16:18
cjwatsonyep16:18
cjwatsonsome possible fixes were in the post-beta queue that just got flushed16:18
* slangasek nods16:18
slangasekshall we move on to hw testing?16:19
marjoslangasek: i didn't see that on the agenda16:19
slangasek[LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html16:20
MootBotLINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html16:20
marjolet me look quickly16:20
slangasekmarjo: true... it ought to be a standing item, but in any case the status looks pretty good16:20
marjo Laptops:16:20
marjo        passed:   26 (84%)      failed:    1 ( 3%)      untested:  4 (13%)16:20
marjo        Servers:16:20
marjo        passed:   42 (88%)      failed:    0 ( 0%)      untested:  6 (12%)16:20
marjo        Desktops:16:20
marjo        passed:   10 (100%)     failed:    0 (  0%)     untested:  0 (  0%)16:20
loolslangasek: Sorry dropped off the net16:20
marjothere's the summary16:20
marjoyes, it's looking good16:21
slangasekthat failure also predates beta (2009-09-17)16:21
fader_slangasek: My bad -- I retested with the beta but forgot to update the date16:21
marjoall have bugs and/or RT tickets associated with them16:21
fader_I'll fix that now16:21
slangasekfader_: still a failure?16:21
fader_It's the same bug though16:21
fader_Yep16:21
marjofader is tracking all16:21
slangasekmarjo, fader_: thanks for staying on top of this16:22
marjoslangasek: welcome16:22
slangasekmarjo: any other concerns from you guys regarding QA for release?16:23
marjoneed to keep on top of outstanding unfixed bugs16:23
marjoas detailed in the Beta Test Report16:23
mdzmarjo: how are we doing on regressions?16:23
marjomdz: last time brian and I ran report,16:24
marjoit looks like there were over 115 regression potentials vs. same time last release16:24
mdzhttp://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/regression/regression_tracker.html16:25
MootBotLINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/regression/regression_tracker.html16:25
slangasekmarjo: 115 /more/ compared to last time?16:25
mdzwe seem to have quite a few bugs marked as regressions but not triaged16:25
cjwatsonthere are 117 now, can't believe we only had 2 this time last release :)16:25
marjoslangasek: no, 50+ vs. 115+, therefore more than doubled16:26
slangasekok16:26
marjoneed to do more analysis; not obvious why16:26
slangasekyes, some more triaging of that list is needed; I'll do some today / next week, is there someone on QA who can help with this?16:27
apwperhaps we have more testers16:27
slangasekI wonder if it isn't partly more widespread adoption of the tags16:27
marjoslangasek: yes, bdmurray can help out16:27
slangasek(I know /I/ tagged more regressions this cycle than last16:27
slangasek[ACTION] slangasek and bdmurray to garden the regression-potential bugs16:27
MootBotACTION received:  slangasek and bdmurray to garden the regression-potential bugs16:27
marjoi think it's a combination of more testing & more diligent bug reporting, but don't want to jump to conclusions16:28
marjothanks for the action item16:28
davmor2slangasek: I can run trough them in my smoke testing and see if they are still valid for you too.16:29
slangasekdavmor2: the regressions?  I think those are going to be spread out, so would be best handled by dedicated testing16:31
davmor2np's16:31
slangasekanything else on QA?16:31
slangasek[TOPIC] Desktop Team16:32
MootBotNew Topic:  Desktop Team16:32
slangasekmarjo, cr3, fader_: thanks16:32
asac__so pitti is not here, but he prepared a report16:32
asac__https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus16:32
slangasek[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus16:32
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus16:32
asac__on the RC bug front it look ok from what i see16:32
asac__for triaged ones the modem-manager PUK one is currently in progress upstream16:33
asac__empathy bug is making progress according to kenvandine16:33
asac__for the needs understanding bugs kenvandine also said he had some ideas on the empathy crash16:33
asac__i will remove the firefox XID one from release team radar16:34
asac__the critical battery action not triggered bug is assigned to pitti, so i think it will make progress soon16:35
asac__on the networking one i have something about ath9k that scares me a bit.16:35
asac__bug 43972316:35
ubottuLaunchpad bug 439723 in linux "ath9k - nm-applet don't connect to any network after 2 hours (+-)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/43972316:35
ScottKFor 438445, we've decided to go back to the upstream approach.  The current patch (even if it was working consitently OK) is socially very problematic with upstream (we asked, they said don't do it that way, and then we did anyway).16:35
cjwatsondo you think bug 428920 might be a desktop issue? it looks like an X failure to me16:36
ubottuLaunchpad bug 428920 in Ubuntu Karmic "Karmic boot hangs before login" [Critical,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/42892016:36
asac__seems like we are having regressions for old ath9k chips ... but i am currently trying to understand how common those are16:36
asac__cjwatson: hmmm ... not sure. i will check with tseliot16:37
cjwatsonthanks16:37
RiddellKubuntu?16:37
cjwatsonit wasn't clear from the log, there's just "Backtrace:" at the end but no actual backtrace :)16:38
asac__Riddell: yes. please comment on the kubuntu status16:38
cjwatsonbut that made me suspicious16:38
RiddellKubuntu Beta was in reasonable beta quality shape16:38
Riddellthe issues on my radar for final are..16:38
Riddell * Some kcontrol modules missing translations16:38
Riddell * KDM/ksmserver hangs on logout16:38
Riddell * KPacakgeKit broken probably due to policykit crash16:38
Riddell * "tech-preview" warning to be added to kubuntu netbook ubiquity16:38
Riddell * microblog applet broken16:38
RiddellI need to find the bugs for those and make sure  they're milestoned16:38
Riddellbut I'm optimistic it's all do-able for final16:39
slangasek[ACTION] Riddell to find bugs for kubuntu release issues and make sure they're milestoned16:39
MootBotACTION received:  Riddell to find bugs for kubuntu release issues and make sure they're milestoned16:39
slangasek:)16:39
Riddelloh and  upgrade from hardy16:40
Riddellmvo  needs  to do something to make that possible16:40
Riddellwhich he says  should  be fine16:40
* Riddell done16:42
slangasekprobably not critical for karmic, as long as the upgrade path is sorted in time for Lucid?16:42
ScottKslangasek: It is critical for karmic16:42
slangasek(otherwise, folks can go hardy->jaunty->karmic)16:42
slangasekoh?16:42
slangasekok then16:42
Riddellwell Kubuntu Hardy is just about to lose support16:42
ScottKHardy Kubuntu is EOL16:42
slangasekI thought there was a working upgrade path already via jaunty16:42
Riddellthere is that but well, karmic is infinately better than jaunty, it connects  to networks for one thing16:43
slangasek[ACTION] slangasek to look at possible Kubuntu-only EOL announcement for 8.0416:43
MootBotACTION received:  slangasek to look at possible Kubuntu-only EOL announcement for 8.0416:43
slangasekRiddell: mm, right16:43
slangasekok16:43
slangasekanything else on the desktop?16:43
davidbarthDX?16:43
asac__go ahead16:44
slangasek[TOPIC] DX Tem16:44
MootBotNew Topic:  DX Tem16:44
slangasek[TOPIC] DX Team16:44
MootBotNew Topic:  DX Team16:44
davidbarthThe summary is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/KarmicReleaseStatus16:44
slangasek[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/KarmicReleaseStatus16:44
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/KarmicReleaseStatus16:44
davidbarthin particular for the detail of the updated packages, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/KarmicWeeklyReleases (thanks kenvandine)16:44
davidbarthof note this week16:44
davidbarthnotify-osd 0.9.23 bug fix release; warning: that release triggers a temporary regression with a gpm patch that is still queued for karmic16:44
davidbarth# bug fix releases of libindicate, indicator-messages and indicator-session (crasher - #436181 in particular)16:45
davidbarth# dbusmenu: nasty ordering bug (#430904) in the works, planned for next week16:45
davidbarthreverted indicator-session to not show the user list sub-menu because of a regression in gdm (#438720)16:45
davidbarthnew xsplash fixing a release blocker (#439059)  (thanks robbiew and all those who helped narrow down the issue)16:45
* ogra noticed also a commit that fixes the horribly distroted graphics on 16bpp for xsplash :)16:46
davidbarthwe have a couple of milestoned bugs that we're on; still some crashers16:47
davidbarthand yes, a fix for the 16bpp bug ;)16:47
davidbarthquestions?16:48
slangaseknone here16:49
asac__davidbarth: do you need help on the gpm patch that is still queued? does that need some work or sponsoring?16:49
slangasekanyone else?16:49
davidbarthasac__: yes, if you can speed that up, that will limit the temp. regression; that's really minor though16:50
asac__ok. lets talk after meeting in -desktop16:50
davidbarthasac__: ok16:50
slangasek[ACTION] asac__ to follow up on notify-osd/gpm regression16:50
MootBotACTION received:  asac__ to follow up on notify-osd/gpm regression16:50
slangasek[TOPIC] Mobile Team16:51
MootBotNew Topic:  Mobile Team16:51
slangasekasac__, davidbarth: thanks16:51
ogra[link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic16:51
ogra-16:51
ogra * UNR: icons were discussed with upstream, upstream wants some additional changes to the themes (more details in the report above and in Loïcs mail exchange with release and desktop team)16:51
ogra * moblin: still unstable, work going on, more merges16:51
ogra * armel:16:51
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic16:51
ogra   - various new kernel bugs showed up on imx51 during beta testing16:51
ogra   - dove images went through beta fine16:51
ogra   - openoffice breakage seems to be actually toolchain breakage, being fixed by doko atm16:51
slangasekicons> I understand that lool is under some significant pressure to accept a new upstream drop of the humanity package16:53
ograright, thats how i understood his mail16:53
slangasekjust as a reminder, the artwork freeze is in effect - we should not be taking batch drops of new themes that aren't related to specific bugfixes at this point in the cycle16:53
doko_ogra: I still doubt it ... but the upcoming upload works around it16:54
ograyeah, i should have written "being worked on" :) instead of "fixed"16:54
AmaranthThe new icons are also needed to have a good experience with the Dust theme (which is currently broken because it tries to use Human)16:54
slangasekeven the suggestion of bundling the new dark theme in the existing binary package is problematic, given that the existing theme is a 1.6MB package16:55
ograyeah, its graphics ...16:55
ograusually not small16:55
slangasekAmaranth: I understand, but we need to find a solution that's consistent with where we are in the release cycle and doesn't introduce significant risk of regressing for release16:56
Amaranth(new icons are 30K when compressed with bzip2)16:56
ograit replaces all notification area icons as i understand it16:57
slangasekI'll follow up with lool about this on Monday, but I just wanted to make sure the release manager's position on this was clear that this needs to go through the proper freeze procedures, since lool seems to be quite uncomfortable with what's being proposed16:57
AmaranthRight, it replaces the current monochrome notification area icons with lighter versions16:57
ograslangasek, he also asked to possibly note opinions on the bug16:58
slangasekogra: as for armel - a number of kernel bugs that had been milestoned to beta for armel got deferred to final; I wasn't overly bothered at doing this given our current target audience for armel, but is there anything blocking us on getting these fixed with time to spare for final?16:59
slangasekkernel freeze is coming soon17:00
doko_slangasek: I may be able to free 1.7MB (gzip compressed) on the CDs17:00
ograwell, some have patches that arent getting ,merged and a package upload for imx51 is pending i was told ... as well that amit is on holiday next week17:00
slangasekdoko_: thanks - as usual, will take everything we can get :)17:01
ograslangasek, i agree, its very close and i'd really like to see more progress especially for imx51 ...17:01
slangasekAmaranth: uncompressed size also matters in the case of liveCDs, btw - but it's good to know these shouldn't have a serious impact on ISO size; if you could add that information to the bug, that would be helpful17:01
slangasekogra: "aren't getting merged" - why not?17:01
AmaranthWill do17:02
ograpleanty of these bugs are open since quite some time17:02
slangasekdisagreements about correctness?  lack of time?17:02
ograthe latter is my suspicion17:02
ograthe fix  for missing sound support is there since two weeks or so17:02
slangasekthat's bug #420447?17:02
apwogra, if you can summarise what is pending that would help, we have a heap of bugs over hear17:02
ubottuLaunchpad bug 420447 in linux-fsl-imx51 "no sound devices on babbage board with linux-image-2.6.31-100-imx51" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/42044717:02
ograapw, thats what my report does :)17:03
ograright, this one definately has a patch ... not sexy but will at least give us sound support17:03
ogramy prob is that i couldnt test a single audio app for the whole release yet17:04
ograwhich very likely will produce subsequent bugs once i can17:04
apwsounds like kernel and ogra need to interlock more directly, as 'in my report' isn't getting them onto my radar17:05
slangasekogra: could I ask you to send apw a summary by email of the items you believe currently have merges outstanding for kernel?17:05
apwyeah that would help me a lot17:05
ograyes17:05
ograapw, i'll contact you on monday17:06
apwogra, probabally to the kernel-team list would be good, cc: me too so i don't miss it17:06
apwsounds good17:06
slangasek[ACTION] ogra to email apw the list of armel kernel bugs for which merges are outstanding17:06
MootBotACTION received:  ogra to email apw the list of armel kernel bugs for which merges are outstanding17:06
ograapw, also, is there someone taking amits role wrt imx51 during his holiday ?17:06
ogragiven the freeze is so near and we have so many opens ?17:06
apwogra, i am not sure who, but someone must be looking over it17:07
apwafter it ... get the info to the list and i'll bounce on people to find out who is going to look after it17:07
ograi dont mean outstanding merges but the open bugs17:07
slangasekapw: separately, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+bugs?field.searchtext=linux-fsl-imx51&milestone=12698 should be on the radar of someone on the kernel team for final17:08
apwogra, how big is the audience for this platform?  imx51 ?17:08
ograapw, no idea, how does that matter ?17:09
ograits an arch we commited to17:09
ograand i expect that it is supported as well as the others17:09
apwfor prioritising reasons, we arn't likely to close every bug, so we need to know where to put our effort17:09
ograout of 19 bugs being tagged armel atm 10 are imx51 kernel bugs17:10
ograindeed, i dont expect all bugs to get closed17:10
ograas i dont expect all bugs being closed on my i386 laptop17:10
apwso knowng how big a slice of our affected userbase they are helps us prioritise them in with our others17:10
slangasekapw: I think at this point you should have all the information needed to track the outstanding issues, correct?  So informed decisions about delivery/deferral can be made offline?17:11
ograright, no need to exted the meeting with this17:11
apwindeed so17:11
ogra*extend17:11
slangasek[TOPIC] Kernel Team17:12
MootBotNew Topic:  Kernel Team17:12
apw..17:13
apwOverall kernel team status is summarised at the URL below, including the bugs called out in the agenda.  We seem to be seeing the start of the flow of bugs resulting from wider beta testing:17:13
apw[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic17:13
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic17:13
apwWe have started receiving and integrating 2.6.31.x stable updates, some 90 patches in the first batch with another 120 or so in .2 due around now.  Futher work has been committed to work round some recurring brightness issues.  As have a number of i915 updates for new hardware.17:13
apwAll of the items which impact the distro release schedule remain basically complete, the arm branches are now up to date and basically working, bugs being worked as normal, integration is deemed complete there.  We continue to focus on regression-potential bugs, including focusing this weeks bug day on new bugs.17:13
apw(modulo the discussion here on imx51 status)17:13
apw..17:14
=== asac_ is now known as asac
davmor2slangasek: 1 test left17:16
slangasek395358> fwiw, that summary is wrong, the hotkey should not be handled by the kernel as a "hw kill" at all...17:16
apwslangasek, though the key is connected to the HW at the acpi level and is making your bluetooth appear and dissappear at the hardware level, right?17:18
slangasekapw: "another 120 or so" - how well do these things seem to be converging?17:18
slangasekapw: no, it's connected to the HW *by the kernel*17:18
slangasekapw: this hotkey never does *anything* in ACPI; this is entirely a kernel regression that it's now toggling everything17:18
slangaseksorry if that wasn't clear17:18
apwi thought it was toggling everything by toggling the sw rfkill and in parallel the hw rfkill was toggling in the right sequence at least as evidenced for bluetooth17:19
apwleading to bad overall semantics17:19
slangasekthat's entirely new behavior in karmic17:19
apwright as sw kill didn't exist at all17:20
apwbefore karmic ...17:20
slangasekI believe the kernel is force-detaching the device; it's not done by ACPI17:20
slangasekanyway, we can discuss that offline17:20
apwack17:20
slangaseknow, as for merging the stable patches17:20
slangasek120 patches - how soon are these going to land in karmic?17:20
slangasekkernel freeze is 2 weeks away17:20
slangasekand we'll want to leave room for fixing regressions that turn up...17:21
apwi am expecting them by weds next week, as they have appeared in the commit emails for stable17:21
apwthey could be sooner.  it is l ikley that is the last of the stable updates we can get in before freeze17:21
slangasekok; if they slip past next Wednesday, I think we'll want to discuss whether it makes sense to upload them before release, or defer .2 as an SRU17:22
apwslangasek, ACK17:22
slangasekanyone have anything else to discuss on kernel?17:22
slangasek[TOPIC] Server Team17:23
MootBotNew Topic:  Server Team17:23
slangasekapw: thanks17:23
slangasekttx: hi17:23
ttxhey17:23
ttxupdated status at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus17:24
slangasek[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus17:24
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus17:24
ttxWe are also looking at the packages /other/ than Eucalyptus17:24
ttxto see if there wouldn't be good candidates that we missed sight of17:24
=== Keybuk_ is now known as Keybuk
slangasekthat's good :)17:25
ttxwe also expect more people to test server now that it's beta17:25
ttxeven if traditionally server doesn't get tested that much before release17:25
* slangasek nods17:25
ttxwe should push some public calls to encourage people to do testing server now17:26
slangasekis there a particular forum where you think that will be effective, other than the places where beta has already been announced?17:26
slangasekor do you think an explicit call for server testing to the same channels is what's needed?17:26
ttxI think we (team) need to blog about it, so that it shows on server aggregators17:26
slangasekok17:27
ttxOn the release management front...17:27
ttxbeta still showed some weakness on the UEC/EC2 release automation17:27
ttxthat smoser will work to cover.17:27
ttxwe might need to do some dry runs17:28
ttxwith the release team cooperation17:28
slangasekyes, I would like to work with smoser to get publishing integrated as much as possible with the existing cdimage script suite17:28
ttxnow that we ahve a reasonably working UEC stack we'll also call for testers on that side17:29
ttx"test it, its easier than it sounds"17:29
ttxthe hardware requirement is the major blocker to that.17:29
slangasekthat should help us avoid any fat-fingering at publishing time, as well as getting us prettiness like file descriptions in the index17:29
ttxyes. Beta should have been the opportunity to do that, but we were late17:29
smoserslangasek, ttx we've got lots of work to do there. the uec stuff shouldn't be hard, but the ec2 just needs some work.17:29
smoserit was ec2 that i fat fingered17:30
ttxthat's why I suggest some dry runs now.17:30
slangasek[ACTION] slangasek and smoser to coordinate dry-runs of UEC/EC2 publishing next week, in advance of RC17:30
MootBotACTION received:  slangasek and smoser to coordinate dry-runs of UEC/EC2 publishing next week, in advance of RC17:30
ttxThat's about it on our side... questions, comments, additions ?17:31
slangaseknot from me17:31
ttxhttps://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-karmic-ec2-release-process needs to be retargeted17:31
ttxbut I don't have the power to do so17:32
ttxit should be considered completed when automation is ready.17:32
ttxthat's all from me.17:33
slangasekretargeted17:33
ttxI knew you could do that :)17:33
slangasek[TOPIC] Security Team17:33
MootBotNew Topic:  Security Team17:33
slangasekttx: thanks :)17:33
jdstrando/17:33
slangasekjdstrand: hi17:33
jdstrandhi17:33
* ttx disappears17:33
jdstrandso this week, now that we have a release meeting under our belt, we created https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus17:34
slangasek[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus17:34
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus17:34
ttxjdstrand: copycat17:34
jdstrandttx: :P17:34
* ScottK notes he really enjoyed downloading an OOo security update on the same day the beta was released.17:34
jdstrandwe are in bug fixing mode and have 4 bugs17:34
jdstrandScottK: that was a nive touch eh? I had to be careful about not ying up the buildds too17:35
jdstrandbug #43408417:35
ubottuLaunchpad bug 434084 in refpolicy-ubuntu "SE Linux not enabled" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/43408417:35
jdstrandnothing new to report (no feedback from community maintainers yet, but will continue to follow-up)17:35
jdstrandbug #43785417:35
ubottuLaunchpad bug 437854 in libvirt "apparmor profile denies access to alsa" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/43785417:35
jdstrandapparmor profile denies access to alsa (have patch, will be in next upload)17:35
jdstrandbug #43816517:35
jdstrandapparmor profiles are never deleted (have patch, will be in next upload)17:36
ubottuLaunchpad bug 438165 in libvirt "apparmor profiles are never deleted" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/43816517:36
jdstrandbug #43972617:36
ubottuLaunchpad bug 439726 in apparmor "/etc/apparmor/initramfs assumes availability of /usr too early" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/43972617:36
jdstrandkees is working on it17:36
* slangasek nods17:36
jdstrandon our radar, but a kernel bug is bug #42794817:36
ubottuLaunchpad bug 427948 in apparmor "network operations not getting reported on karmic" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/42794817:36
jdstrandI'm told the kernel team should have a fix before freeze17:36
jdstrandother than what is in the wiki, I don't have anything else to report17:37
slangaseksounds good17:37
slangasekanyone else have any questions for security?17:37
slangasek[TOPIC] Foundations Team17:38
MootBotNew Topic:  Foundations Team17:38
slangasekjdstrand: thanks!17:38
slangasekcjwatson: hi17:38
jdstrandslangasek: sure thing!17:38
=== itnet7 is now known as itnet7_g1
cjwatsonhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic mostly up to date (we so need to move over to a format more like the desktop team's, but for lucid ...)17:39
cjwatsonsignificant bug reduction from last meeting; I think we're down to a fairly manageable range again, and boot is definitely settling17:39
slangasek[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic17:39
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic17:39
cjwatsonstill some problems with fsck timestamp problems, which boil down to a combination of (a) interaction between NTP and filesystem timestamps not being updated on umount (b) hardware clock mis-setting in d-i (hopefully not ubiquity though), and a few remaining boot corner cases17:39
cjwatsonvarious boot/shutdown tidiness issues, which we'll attack incrementally but we need to consider them strictly less important than actual failures to boot; real polish here will be for lucid; Scott and I are working on some usplash improvements between us, too17:39
cjwatsonWubi worked in some cases for beta, but the system seems quite unstable. We discovered that the syncio option went missing from ntfs-3g in a merge a while back, so we'll see if it gets more stable once we have a build with that restored17:39
cjwatson(end, sorry this is kind of brief)17:39
slangasekwhen we're 10 minutes over, brevity is nothing to apologize for ;)17:41
slangasekany questions for Foundations?17:41
cjwatsonI understand we're under some pressure to make the boot tidy, which is why I included an explicit statement there that boot failures do need to take precedence17:42
cjwatsonbut we'll do what we can17:42
slangasekseems we're down to 3 known boot failure bugs currently17:43
slangasekso if anyone is seeing boot failures that don't fit those descriptions... please make sure they get filed/escalated17:43
slangasek[TOPIC] MOTU17:43
MootBotNew Topic:  MOTU17:43
slangasekcjwatson: thanks17:43
slangasekScottK: hi17:43
ScottKo/17:43
* sistpoty|work waves17:44
ScottKFTBFS is still my major concern17:44
slangaseksistpoty|work: hi as well :)17:44
sistpoty|work*nod*17:44
ScottKI few people are contributing fixes, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to the problem.17:44
ScottKFFe processing is going reasonably well.17:44
slangasek[LINK] http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20090909-karmic.html17:44
MootBotLINK received:  http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20090909-karmic.html17:44
sistpoty|workslangasek: can you post something to u-d-a about FTBFS with your next post?17:44
ScottKI think we finished clutter transition duing the beta freeze.17:44
ScottKMaven is a mess and needs some focus to get it in sync.17:45
slangaseksistpoty|work: I think it warrants a dedicated post, rather than waiting for my next one; maybe you would like to draft something?17:45
ScottKThere is some end user complaining, but no one has stood up to do it.17:45
sistpoty|workslangasek: sure, can do... I'll send you the draft once I have one ;)17:45
sistpoty|work(or paste it somewhere)17:46
slangaseksistpoty|work: sounds good, thanks17:46
ScottKOther than that, things seem to be in reasonably good shape.17:46
ScottKI've been remiss in having the discussion with the rest of the team on final freeze timing for universe.17:46
ScottKI guess that's more urgen now.17:46
ScottK... urgent ...17:47
ScottKThat's all I have17:47
* sistpoty|work doesn't have anything to add17:47
slangasekanyone else have questions on MOTU?17:47
slangasekScottK, sistpoty|work: thanks, guys17:47
slangasek[TOPIC] AOB17:48
MootBotNew Topic:  AOB17:48
sistpoty|workthanks slangasek17:48
slangasekI have one note here17:48
slangasekwin 2117:48
* ScottK guesses that isn't it.17:48
slangasekno :)17:48
slangaseklamont has said he's going to be pushing new karmic chroot tarballs out over the weekend17:48
slangasekso expect some slight delays to builds during that period (but hopefully nothing more disruptive than that )17:48
slangasekanything else? <gavel in the air>17:50
slangasek#endmeeting17:50
MootBotMeeting finished at 11:50.17:50
slangasekthanks, all!17:50
=== mc44_ is now known as mc44
=== itnet7_g1 is now known as itnet7
highvoltage*beep*17:59
* stgraber waves18:00
highvoltagehi stgraber, LaserJock, alkisg18:00
alkisgHi all!18:00
LaserJockwho's going to chair today?18:02
alkisg^^^ :)18:02
alkisgace_suares won't be here today18:04
* highvoltage seconds LaserJock for chair18:04
LaserJock#startmeeting18:05
MootBotMeeting started at 12:05. The chair is LaserJock.18:05
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]18:05
LaserJock[LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/WikiSite/Meeting18:05
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/WikiSite/Meeting18:05
LaserJock^^ our agenda18:05
LaserJocklet's get a list of attendees before be begin, raise your hand if you're here for the Edubuntu Meeting18:06
LaserJocko/18:06
alkisgo/18:06
dindao/18:06
highvoltage\o.18:06
* stgraber waves again18:06
LaserJockok, so I see we have all 3 Edubuntu Council members in attendance and have a quorum, very nice18:07
LaserJockI think I will insert the EC agenda items first to make sure they get handled18:08
LaserJockwho all is here applying for Edubuntu Membership today ....18:08
alkisgo/ ! :)18:09
LaserJockok18:09
LaserJock[TOPIC] alkisg Edubuntu Membership application18:09
MootBotNew Topic:  alkisg Edubuntu Membership application18:09
highvoltagealkisg: do you have a wiki page up with your nomination details?18:10
alkisgI've put some short cv info on my ubuntu wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlkisGeorgopoulos18:10
LaserJockexcellent18:10
LaserJockalkisg: what wiki pages on UbuntuLTSP are you particularly proud of?18:11
alkisgHere's one: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/ProxyDHCP18:12
alkisgI'm mostly proud because that option, i.e. easily booting LTSP in an environment with an existing, external DHCP server wasn't available before,18:12
alkisgso I tried to ask for help from the dnsmasq & gpxe developers, and they implemented this, and now many schools use that method18:13
alkisgAnother one is a method to boot ltsp from a PC that already has windows installed, and no boot from lan option: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/grubgpxe18:14
LaserJockalkisg: how long have you been contributing directly to Edubuntu (user support, helping plan, scripts, wiki, etc.)?18:14
alkisgI've first used edubuntu 2 years ago, so I didn't have much time to contribute.18:15
alkisgThe first 6 months I was mostly learning, unable to contribute. After that I'm mostly in #ltsp and in #edubuntu helping wherever I can.18:15
alkisgLike I say in the wiki page, $ grep alkisg .purple/logs/irc/alkisg@irc.freenode.net/#ltsp.chat/* | wc -l18:16
alkisg 1796018:16
LaserJockhighvoltage, stgraber : any questions from you?18:16
alkisg==> that's a lot of chatting :D18:16
stgrabernope, I know him quite well mainly on #ltsp, so it's all good for me18:16
highvoltagealkisg: if you could change anything in edubuntu, what would be the first thing(s) you'd change?18:16
alkisghighvoltage: Difficult question. I think that now that LTSP has moved to the alternate CD (ok it's back now in the DVD, but not the main focus of edubuntu anymore), that I'd try to make it easier for the teacher to setup a lab using edubuntu.18:17
alkisgI.e. LDAP/NFS "installers" or some other method (sshfs?) for classroom/account management18:18
highvoltagealkisg: I'm quite interested in the greek spin that you're planning on18:18
highvoltagealkisg: are there any features you're planning for it that won't be in Edubuntu?18:18
alkisgI know what greek schools need, as I'm in constant touch with many many Greek teachers.18:18
highvoltagealkisg: and if so, will you assist in getting those features into edubuntu over the long term?18:18
alkisgSo I'd like to make a remix that would make it very easy for them to install a lab18:19
alkisgThere are some greek edu apps that I'd put there, which won't be of any interest to the edubuntu community18:19
alkisgOther than that, any installers / scripts etc I'm going to make, I'll try to make them as upstream projects, with greek being only a translation18:20
LaserJockalkisg: also, when you're done with highvoltage's question, roughly how many schools/kids are using Edubuntu/Ubuntu LTSP in Greece?18:20
alkisgLaserJock: it's really difficult to turn people here to using FLOSS. E.g. they use the trial versions of winzip/winrar and if you tell them that 7zip does the same thing without the annoying popups, they ignore you18:21
alkisgSo it'll take a lot of effort to switch many of them. I'd estimate that about 50 Greek schools now use Ubuntu with or without LTSP18:21
alkisgMultiply that with about 100-200 students...18:21
LaserJockk, glad to see it getting a toe-hold18:22
alkisgBut we made some good progress; e.g. I've set  up a repository with about 10 Gb of greek educational software18:22
LaserJock[VOTE] Edubuntu Membership for alkisg18:22
MootBotPlease vote on:  Edubuntu Membership for alkisg.18:22
MootBotPublic votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot18:22
MootBotE.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting18:22
alkisg...and now with a "sudo apt-get install gymnasio" they can install all of it18:22
=== robbiew is now known as robbiew-afk
alkisgSo I'm hoping that with the remix, many more will be interested in switching to FLOSS.18:23
LaserJock+118:23
MootBot+1 received from LaserJock. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 118:23
stgraber+1 for a very good work on documentation, beta test and work on scripts for both LTSP and iTalc18:23
MootBot+1 received from stgraber. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 218:23
highvoltageI'm saying +1 because he stuck with us through some tough times, he's in touch with real life schools out there, he has some good plans for the future and he's good to have around18:24
highvoltage(on top of the other reasons, of course)18:24
highvoltageoh18:24
highvoltage+118:24
MootBot+1 received from highvoltage. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 318:24
LaserJockdo I need to end a vote? if so, how?18:24
stgraberLaserJock: #endvote ? (just a guess)18:25
LaserJock#endvote18:25
* LaserJock thinks that didn't help18:25
stgraberhmm, or not ;)18:25
stgraberlook in your pms18:25
stgrabersometimes the bot send you a private message with some instructions18:25
LaserJockit just says please vote18:25
highvoltage[ENDVOTE]18:26
LaserJock[ENDVOTE]18:26
stgraber[endvote]18:26
MootBotFinal result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 318:26
LaserJockheh18:26
highvoltageinteresting.18:26
alkisgThank you all! I strongly believe you won't be disappointed. :)18:26
LaserJockalkisg: now get to work!18:26
alkisg(I'll be around for the next 30 years or so to prove it :))18:26
highvoltagealkisg: welcome as an officially recognised Ubuntu contributor!18:27
stgraberalkisg: enjoy your @ubuntu.com and @edubuntu.org ;)18:27
alkisgHeh, nice! :)18:27
highvoltagewe have to remember to report this to the CC too18:27
LaserJock[TOPIC] cleaning out the ~edubuntu-members membership requests18:27
MootBotNew Topic:  cleaning out the ~edubuntu-members membership requests18:27
LaserJockwe have a ton of membership requests sitting there18:28
* stgraber has got to go reboot a server, will be back in a minute18:28
LaserJockwhat should we do about them?18:28
highvoltagesome people have confused ~edubuntu-members with "the ubuntu team"18:28
highvoltageso when someome wanted to join edubuntu as a contributor, they requested a join there18:29
highvoltagethere's a number of people that haven't ever added their name to an agenda or gave us any kind of ping18:29
highvoltageperhaps just reject them and add a link that explains ubuntu membership and the process for applying?18:29
LaserJockone of the reasons I wanted to get ownership of the team from the CC is to change the team so that people can't join18:30
LaserJockI mean, not apply through LP18:30
LaserJockthey'd have to be added by the EC18:30
highvoltagethat makes sense. a member can be added after they have applied successfully18:30
LaserJockthe plus side is we don't get a bunch of people who have no relation to Edubuntu on there18:31
LaserJockthe minus side is people we *do* want can't just hit the button to be on the list for the next EC meeting18:31
LaserJockthey'd have to put themselves on the agenda most likely18:31
highvoltageLaserJock: but that never worked anyway18:31
highvoltageLaserJock: if someone doesn't add their name on the agenda or doesn't show on the meeting, nothings going to happen anyway18:32
LaserJockright18:32
dindahow many people are we talking about?18:33
LaserJockwe have 31 proposed members18:33
LaserJockthere are only 10 *in* the team :-)18:33
dindait seems like since the overall membership shifted from the CC to various councils, the numbers of folks applying has dwindled - or rather been manageable due to the various teams18:33
dindadoesn't seem much different from the other council processes, to add one's name to the meeting agenda18:34
highvoltageyep.18:34
* stgraber is back18:35
LaserJockok, so what if we 1) sent an email out to edubuntu-devel/edubuntu-users that we're going to purge the list and explain the process 2) purge the proposed 3) make the text of ~edubuntu-members clear for people who do want to apply18:35
stgrabersounds good (just finished reading the backlog)18:36
LaserJock4) we should have an open team where people who just want to be fans or begin contributing can join18:36
nubaehi folks... sorry to come late...18:36
highvoltageyep, perhaps just include CC on step 118:36
LaserJocknubae: great to see you!18:36
nubaeditto :-)18:36
dindasounds like a good plan18:36
highvoltage(sorry if I'm a bit pedantic on that atm, it's just so that we keep them in the loop about membership stuff)18:36
alkisgHey nubae18:36
LaserJockok, so who wants to do what on that list?18:37
LaserJockI can do 1 and 318:37
nubaeurl? sorry if asking for the umpteenth time :-/18:37
=== jsalisbury_ is now known as jsalisbury
LaserJocknubae: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/WikiSite/Meeting but we're a bit OT at the moment18:37
dindawhat does purging entail?  a council person going into LP and rejecting all?18:37
highvoltageLaserJock: I can do 1 2 or 3. si I'll go with 2 then18:37
LaserJockdinda: with a nice message, yeah18:38
LaserJockactually 4 we should wait on and do with the LP team cleanup18:38
LaserJockagreed?18:38
dindaLaserJock: indeed :)  "Bad news - you 've been rejected!  Good news - we have new process!"18:38
highvoltageyep18:38
highvoltagedinda: it's really pretty much the same process as always18:39
highvoltagedinda: we never approved any members purely on an LP application18:39
highvoltagedinda: the changes is really just so that people don't accidentally half-way apply18:39
LaserJockor at least not letting people shot themselves in the foot18:40
dindait is confusing, when there are several LP groups; like the doc team, each with a different level of contributors and some just wanna be contributors looking for mentoring18:40
nubaeI'd like to quickly see how what I'm doing at work might fit into something usable also for edubuntu...18:40
LaserJock[ACTION] LaserJock to email edubuntu-{devel,users} and CC that we will be purging the proposed ~edubuntu-members LP applications18:41
highvoltagedinda: yep, it is a bit.18:41
MootBotACTION received:  LaserJock to email edubuntu-{devel,users} and CC that we will be purging the proposed ~edubuntu-members LP applications18:41
nubaeso when u have a moment, I'll talk about it a bit...18:41
LaserJock[ACTION] highvoltage to do the purging, with a nice message explaining how to correctly apply18:41
MootBotACTION received:  highvoltage to do the purging, with a nice message explaining how to correctly apply18:41
LaserJock[ACTION] general Edubuntu contributor/fan open LP team should be created/re-purposed during LP team cleanup18:42
MootBotACTION received:  general Edubuntu contributor/fan open LP team should be created/re-purposed during LP team cleanup18:42
LaserJockany other EC business?18:42
stgraberok, I have a broken RAID controler on a production system, I'll just kick off a reinstall and be back in two minutes18:42
stgrabersorry for that18:42
highvoltageLaserJock: nothing that need attention right now18:43
LaserJockOK18:43
highvoltage(and my dinner is getting cold :p)18:43
alkisg:)18:43
LaserJockshould we let nubae start while stgraber is away?18:43
nubaehe can read the backlog18:44
highvoltageyep18:44
LaserJock[TOPIC] report from nubae18:44
MootBotNew Topic:  report from nubae18:44
nubaeok, well basically at work we are creating what we are calling a resource manager18:44
nubaeIt is basically a method whereby a teacher might create xmpp groups (MUCs generally)18:45
nubaeand students would see these from a little applet on their systems, and join the corresponding group18:45
nubaebasically we are using the underlying telepathy framework to communicate with these apps using dbus python bindings18:46
nubaetell me if this gets too technical and/or needs explanation18:46
nubaeThe idea is that by a teacher creating these groups, he can attachn xmpp based resources to them18:47
highvoltagenope, please continue18:47
stgraberI'm back18:47
nubaefor example, enable chat, enable group based streaming (vino, vinagre)18:47
nubaeenable italc18:47
nubaejclic... etc18:48
nubaeso its a way for students to get access to any group based applications, and a teacher to manage the membership to these18:48
nubaedoes that make sense so far?18:48
stgrabersure, probably doesn't only apply to schools, I can see quite a lot of corporate use for that as well18:49
LaserJockso essentially you're running the classroom over telephathy?18:49
nubaeWe want to use a jabber server to do the majority of traffic routing, though there is fallback mechanism to salut18:49
nubaeLaserJock, yes, I guess u could say that :-)18:49
highvoltageI know one corporate who paid millions for a commercial system like that that integrates with AD18:49
nubaeThe future is to attach any telepathy based app to the resource manager and enable/disable memberhsip to it18:50
nubaeYeah, telepathy is amazingly cool like that, in that it ties into the whole communications system of the desktop18:50
nubaebe it kde or gnome, or things like Sugar18:50
dindahighvoltage: exactly, that is definitely something we could use in training classrooms18:50
alkisgCan the teacher forcefully include a student? Or the students have to join themselves?18:50
LaserJocknubae: so the teacher can easily create/edit these groups and their memebrship?18:51
nubaenow, what we do is essentially communicate with mission control to do the majority of these tasks18:51
nubaeLaserJock, yes there are 2 parts to it, a "xmpp resource manager" (for lack of a better label)18:51
nubaewhich the teacher launches, then can create groups, based on multi user chatrooms18:53
nubaethese MUCs can then have tubes launched in them to enable collaboration18:53
nubaeI'm trying to keep the technoical details out of it, but its hard to seperate at this stage... but to really simplify it... 2 apps, the teacher's resource manager to create groups and manage permissions to apps18:54
nubaeand the students app, which grabs available groups (think of them as classrooms or subjects)18:54
nubaeand allows membership to them18:55
LaserJockvery cool stuff18:55
nubaethe teacher sees the students joining groups18:55
LaserJockit would be nice to see something like that make it into Edubuntu 10.0418:55
nubaeand can thereby be sure the right people are in the right groups, etc18:55
nubaewell... this is a pretty serious project at work right now, and we've got a good 4 people working on it18:56
nubaeWe hopefully dont need to touch any C, and can do most of it with python via dbus bindings18:56
LaserJockwe'd obviously need the telepathy bits and probably a jabber server18:56
nubaewhich is what telepathy is advertised as enabling (btw... for those interested, try apt-get install telepathy-inspector, great tool to see how all this works)18:57
nubaeyes, one needs telepathy, especially mission control installed18:57
nubaetelepathy-gabble and telepathy-salut18:57
nubaeejabberd preferrably18:57
LaserJocknubae: if you could get together 1) a list of software we'd need and 2) when the time comes (if it's not there yet) some tarballs or something of the apps18:57
nubaeand then the 2 apps we are creating, as well as any apps that work with telepathy as recommended18:58
alkisgI imagine that many other apps could also utilize a group management framework like this... good work nubae! :)18:58
LaserJockindeed18:58
nubaeYeah, most likely we'll create a launchpad page and manage it that way18:58
nubaeso hopefully we can easily move from PPA to wherever18:59
LaserJockyeah18:59
LaserJockkeep us posted18:59
LaserJockwe're almost out of time here18:59
nubaeyeah, so if anyone is interested in this, please contact me18:59
LaserJockI'm not sure if there's another meeting or not18:59
nubaesorry for taking up the time :-/18:59
LaserJockdo we have any other pressing issues?18:59
LaserJocknubae: no, not at all19:00
highvoltagenp nubae, thanks for sharing :)19:00
LaserJocknubae: that's really exciting stuff19:00
LaserJockthe last thing I wanted to point out is we have Edubuntu 9.10 Beta DVD's available19:00
highvoltageLaserJock: oh awesome. who did the testing?19:00
LaserJock[LINK] http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/releases/9.10/beta/19:00
MootBotLINK received:  http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/releases/9.10/beta/19:00
LaserJockhighvoltage: davmor2 !19:01
highvoltageLaserJock: I felt quite terrible today when I saw all the other announcements and just assumed there wasn't an ubuntu one19:01
nubaeah nice... lets go take a look :-)19:01
highvoltageLaserJock: well davmore2 ftw!19:01
highvoltageLaserJock: I guess we should also make some noise about that then19:01
LaserJockhighvoltage: I added an Edubuntu section to the Ubuntu release announcement19:01
LaserJockyeah, make noise!19:01
highvoltageLaserJock: thanks!19:01
LaserJockand especially try to get some testing done19:01
LaserJockthis is sort of our last chance to get rid of show stoppers in the installer, etc.19:02
LaserJockOK, so with that19:02
nubaewas gonna ask, what needs testing on the dvd?19:02
LaserJocksort of everything19:02
LaserJockhttp://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/test/3148 has some links to test cases19:03
MootBotLINK received:  http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/test/3148 has some links to test cases19:03
LaserJockthey're pretty generic19:03
LaserJockI just basically want to make sure people can 1) install standalone Edubuntu from Live session 2) Install standalone from text installer 3) Install LTSP from text installer19:04
nubaeok, i'll spend some time over the weekend taking a look, where should we post any feedback?19:04
LaserJockfor actual bugs you can file them19:04
nubaeyeah, but more general, non bugs19:04
sbeattieLaserJock: davmor2's testing this week found that (2) didn't happen; you got ubuntu-desktop and edubuntu-server19:04
LaserJockfor general feedback (or if you don't want to fight with LP) send them to edubuntu-devel19:04
nubaeok cool19:05
* highvoltage has to go19:05
LaserJocksbeattie: yeah, I saw that, I spent some time trying to figure out how those tasks are set19:05
LaserJockI need to talk to cjwatson maybe about it but I didn't want to bother him during Beta19:05
highvoltagethanks everyone, and goodbye from me!19:05
LaserJock#endmeeting19:05
alkisgBye highvoltage, and thanks.19:05
MootBotMeeting finished at 13:05.19:05
nubaebtw... is there any artwork still needed?19:05
LaserJocknubae: we can always use it, and there's plenty of room19:06
nubaeRemember I did a whole bunch of artwork a while back... dunno if its appropriate19:06
* nubae waves to highvoltage 19:06
LaserJocknubae: I can say it'll make it on the DVD this round (I have to figure out how to do artwork packaging) but if we have it we can get it on 10.04 which is an LTS19:06
LaserJockOK everybody. Good meeting!19:07
LaserJockNow let's go out there and rock the education world! ;-)19:07
nubaeok, cool, perhaps I can work on some icons for then that fits with that...19:07
LaserJocknubae: that's be way cool19:07
LaserJocknubae: icons are a bit of a problem in general19:07
nubaeok how so... lets take this to #edubuntu19:07
alkisgGoodbye all!19:08
genii ~15 mins to Kubuntu mtg?19:44
Quintasangenii: yes19:44
geniiQuintasan: OK, thanks19:45
cjwatsonLaserJock: I already fixed the last of edubuntu-desktop-gnome19:52
cjwatsons/last/lack/19:52
cjwatsonLaserJock: or think I did anyway19:52
=== robbiew-afk is now known as robbiew
ScottKo/20:00
JontheEchidna\o20:00
Riddellgood evening friends20:00
Riddellhow are we feeling tonight?20:00
nixternalhola20:00
yuriyhi all20:01
Nightroseo/20:01
Lurehello all20:01
Riddellanyone here for membership ce soir?20:01
* Lure may need to reapply when I contribute some more ;-)20:02
rgreeningafternoon :)20:02
Quintasan\o20:02
Riddellhow are  we doing  for council members?20:02
* sistpoty waves20:02
* ulysses__ later will apply for membership20:02
Riddellapachelogger?20:02
apacheloggerahoy20:02
* JontheEchidna tells apachelogger to stop looking at pycode20:02
Riddellrgreening? Nightrose?20:02
apacheloggeryeah, just drowned in kate windows :D20:02
Nightrosehehe :)20:03
* rgreening waves20:03
Nightrose*here20:03
Riddellagenda is at https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings20:03
Riddelllooks long but hopefully won't be so bad20:03
Riddellrgreening: has the first item20:03
Riddell"Discuss top bugs to quash"20:03
rgreeningYeah, so I was wondering how we are all doing on bugs?20:03
Riddellmy list on https://wiki.kubuntu.org/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus says..20:03
RiddellSome kcontrol modules missing translations20:03
RiddellKDM/ksmserver hangs on logout20:03
RiddellKPacakgeKit broken probably due to policykit crash20:03
Riddell"tech-preview" warning to be added to kubuntu netbook ubiquity20:03
Riddellmicroblog applet broken20:03
Riddellhardy upgrade needs to be enabled in DistUpgrade tool20:03
Riddellalthough I'm not organised  enough to have looked up the bug  numbers20:04
LureRiddell: kdm does not start for me - "sudo kdm stop" is workaround - is this known20:04
sistpotyoh crap, looks like I've scheduled a motu-meeting at the same time as the kubuntu meeting... so anyone here for the motu-meeting, let's defer it20:04
rgreeninganyone else have bugs to add as top priorities?20:04
* Lure has other problems with upstart though20:04
JontheEchidnaI know why KPackageKit lacks translation. The .mo in language-pack-* is camelcased while kpackagekit expects all lower case20:05
apachelogger-.-20:05
james_wwhat's the number for the kpackagekit/polkit bug?20:05
RiddellLure: someone else was complaining it didn't work  earlier today, there's a lot of crap in the init script we can throw away20:05
JontheEchidnajames_w: I'll get them20:05
LureRiddell: ok, will look for bug, otherwise report it20:05
RiddellJontheEchidna: that makes sense20:06
JontheEchidnathe thing that doesn't make sense is why it is broken in the first place :(20:06
nixternalRiddell: ya, re: KDM, I will make sure a new kdm.conf gets in the 4.3.2 builds, so if anyone is building kdebase-workspace let me know so I can get you the new upstart script20:06
RiddellLure: better if  you could remove parts of /etc/inti/kdm.conf until it  works20:06
JontheEchidnabug 436748 for polkit20:06
ubottuLaunchpad bug 436748 in kdebase-workspace "polkit-kde-manager assert failure: *** glibc detected *** polkit-kde-manager: double free or corruption (fasttop): 0x089cb310 ***" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/43674820:06
Riddellnixternal: what are  you changing?20:06
LureRiddell: will look into this20:06
JontheEchidnamost probably leading to bug 43827920:06
ubottuLaunchpad bug 438279 in packagekit "Kpackagekit ask to report some errors " [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/43827920:06
Riddellany other critical beasties?20:07
JontheEchidnathose system-config-printer-kde ones I mentioned earlier20:08
Riddellyep got those20:08
JontheEchidnacool20:08
nixternalhttp://www.nixternal.com/files/kdm.conf  <- Riddell20:08
nixternalgetting rid of the stuff that isn't necessary right now20:08
james_wJontheEchidna: you didn't answer my question on the packagekit bug20:08
Riddellnixternal: you can put that into bzr then20:09
james_wJontheEchidna: I don't think that polkit bug is the cause of the packagekit one20:09
nixternalremoving all of that does a couple of things:  1) it doesn't break anything that isn't already broken, and 2) is makes starting up faster20:09
* JontheEchidna looks20:09
bigbrovar.20:09
ScottKRiddell: On the "don't give it to grandma" warning, shtylman gave me a pointer, so I think I can take care of that after I get the text coordinated with upstream.20:09
RiddellScottK: yeah he said it was just a  text file that has to appear somewhere20:10
ScottKRiddell: Yep.20:10
rgreeningcool20:10
rgreeningI assume it needs localization?20:10
ScottKNo, too late for that.20:10
Riddellthat's an issue20:10
rgreeningoh well...20:10
ScottKI don't see it as an issue as we don't actually have translators anyway20:11
rgreeningit is a "preview" :)20:11
RiddellI'll get those bugs milestoned if they're not  alrady20:11
Riddelland assign them to nixternal20:11
nixternalRiddell: kdm.conf in bzr now...whoever does the kdebase-workspace build, remember to add it to changelog20:11
nixternalheh20:11
Riddellyou  know you want them :)20:12
Riddellnext topic?20:12
nixternalwhat bugs am I getting?20:12
rgreeningDragon vs Kaffiene20:12
Riddellepic battle No 120:12
RiddellKaffeine works great for me20:12
Nightrose*lol*20:12
nixternalditto20:12
rgreeningSo, I think we are prob in agreement to go with Dragon?20:12
Riddellhow bad is the startup bug?20:12
ScottKI think that we ought to be sure before we change.20:12
nixternalthough I don't use it as insanely as others might though20:13
ScottKi.e. tie goes to what we currently have20:13
JontheEchidnaRiddell: it received 3 duplicate reports at launchpad20:13
rgreeningI've experience random crashes with kaff20:13
* Quintasan install mplayer-nogui +smplayer20:13
JontheEchidnawhich for an application crash is somewhat common, compared to the volume we get for other crashes20:13
nixternalyikes, I just got twitter spammed big time20:14
RiddellJontheEchidna: can we ask them if the new ver20:14
rgreeningany other people have comments or experience with kaffiene?20:14
nixternalk, I will be afk for 5 minutes..dogs gotta go outside..brb20:14
RiddellJontheEchidna: can we ask them if the new version  I  just uploaded fixes it?20:14
* ScottK didn't use it much, but hasn't had problems.20:14
* apachelogger either20:14
rgreeningIm thinking perception wise, we may want to default back to dragon...20:14
rgreeningkaffiene is still there for those to test/install...20:15
rgreeningWe are getting some flack for the "alpha-ness" of our apps... going with dragon could be a win in that area at least20:15
rgreeningany thoughts regarding that?20:16
ScottKRiddell: I need to run out for ~30 minutes.  Would you please move the Quassel/Konvi battle later in the meeting?20:17
* apachelogger agrees completely20:17
apacheloggerbetter save than sorry20:17
apacheloggerIMHO20:17
RiddellScottK: ok20:17
* ScottK too20:17
apacheloggerwe can ask for feedback on kaffeine20:17
Riddellmove kaffeine to DVD then?20:17
rgreeningRiddell: I believe thats the best20:17
apacheloggeraye20:17
rgreeningand Dragon as default20:18
rgreeningon both20:18
rgreeningat least we save face somewhat :)20:18
Riddellnixternal: do you know how late changes like this affect docs, including jjesse (is he doing the book still?)20:18
nixternalRiddell: we can't change docs anymore...the freeze is in effect20:19
Quintasan:|20:19
Nightrose...20:19
JontheEchidnabah20:19
Riddell.. waits for netsplit to fix itself..20:19
JontheEchidna...and let's give it up for netsplits20:19
Riddellwelcome back netsplitters20:20
JontheEchidnaooh... docs still list kaffeine as being default, don't they20:20
rgreeningheh20:20
Riddellnixternal: got an opinion on changing an app now from a docs view?20:20
nixternalchanging kaffeine with dragon right?20:21
JontheEchidnaI guess that's the downside of deciding things around beta time v.v20:21
Riddellnixternal: yes20:21
nixternalrock on, it is good20:21
nixternalwe have Dragon in the docs already20:21
rgreeninghaha20:21
JontheEchidnanice20:21
rgreeningbonus20:21
rgreening:)20:22
Riddellok we'll do that, we should contact kaffeine upstream about this bug though20:22
Nightrosenext battle?20:22
Riddellepic battle No 3, K3b 3 vs k3b 420:22
nixternaldragon was default in jaunty right? that's probably why it never got changed :)20:22
JontheEchidnanixternal: yea20:22
nixternalgroovy20:22
JontheEchidnak3b'll probably be less epic20:22
bigbrovarnods20:22
nixternalI use k3b4 and don't have probs, then again I am not doing anything crazy once again20:22
Riddellmy impression is that k3b 3 is bitrotting20:22
JontheEchidnargreening: did you want to introduce k3b or shall I?20:23
nixternalI know the little horn at the end gets cut off, but other than that, nothing20:23
Riddellso it's not going  to be any better20:23
Riddellnixternal: isn't that deliberate?  it was a bloody stupid sound20:23
nixternalhaha, I liked it :)20:23
JontheEchidnamostly it seems ok, but I think we should still be wary about it's alpha status20:23
Riddellboth suse and mandriva are using k3b 420:23
QuintasanI had no problems with k3b kde4. Won't putting kde3 be a place eater?20:23
RiddellQuintasan: yes it will20:24
nixternalit seems from all of the comments, nobody is bashing k3b20:24
JontheEchidnaok, so k3b kde4 is probably the best anybody can do for now20:24
nixternalseems it is translations, network mangler...20:24
rgreeningsry.. back20:24
* apachelogger notes that k3b kde4 is about 30% translated to german20:24
Riddellit's just yet  another bit of kde 4 porting pain, let's not do kde 5 any time soon20:24
* apachelogger also notes that since translations are on the bash, k3b kde4 is not helping20:24
nixternalapachelogger: like that matters, it will get broken in LP anyways :p20:24
rgreeningI have tested k3b extensively. all seems fine to me.20:24
Quintasannixternal: lol20:25
apacheloggernixternal: wells, only by 20%, so it still would be more than twice as translated :P20:25
nixternalhehe20:25
rgreeningso, we stick with K3B kde420:25
JontheEchidnathe only thing I'm worried about is the dead upstream and translations20:26
JontheEchidna*things *are20:26
Riddellmandriva is upstream and it just gets done as they have  resources20:26
rgreeningwell, I fixed one issue with normalize. Im sure we could handle more issues as they come up20:27
rgreeningI dont mind being the goto for k3b :020:27
Riddellit was also pointed out that most of the issues come from wodin not the frontend that is k3b20:27
JontheEchidnathis is true. I hate wodim with a vengance20:27
JontheEchidnawodim probably owes me a dollar in blank CDs20:27
Riddellok "kopete-facebook inclusion"20:28
RiddellI think this has to go20:28
QuintasanRiddell: we get to translate k3b via LP or I need to contact upstream?20:28
apacheloggerbuggy as hell20:28
Nightrose:(20:28
JontheEchidnayeah, kopete-facebook is nice but is too unstable20:28
Nightroseohnoes20:28
rgreeningdid we deal with the IRC issue yet Riddell20:28
apacheloggercrashes kopete at times20:28
apacheloggeralways at quitting20:28
Riddellwhich is a shame, but it doesn't work and the trunk  doesn't make things any better20:28
JontheEchidnait should go20:28
* Nightrose sobs a little20:28
Riddellrgreening: ScottK asked for it later20:28
rgreeningright20:29
rgreeningmy bad20:29
Riddellsomeone needs to start a "Facebook follow  up on  your promise for an XMPP interface" group on facebook20:29
rgreeningFacebook plugin is nice, but crashy. agreed. move to DVD and not instal by default20:29
NightroseRiddell: i'm sure there is one ;-)20:29
Riddell"kubuntu-dev team and archive reorg"20:29
RiddellI created a ~kubuntu-dev team and hopefully  tech board will approve it soon for the Kubuntu part of archive reorg20:30
Riddellso members can be approved to upload Kubuntu stuff20:30
LureRiddell: will this cover universe/kde/qt stuff?20:30
rgreeningcool. Does this cover all Qt/KDE?20:30
nixternalyes20:31
JontheEchidnawhat about qt/kde apps listed in other package categories (I think a few are in the sound section)20:31
RiddellI've actually no  idea how the list is  defined20:31
Riddellcjwatson?20:31
macoso the way it works is ~kubuntu-dev approves people for ~kubuntu-ninjas?20:31
macobecause cjwatson setup the ACLs for ~kubuntu-ninjas20:31
nixternalhrmm20:31
Riddellerr, that's not right20:31
JontheEchidnakubuntu-ninjas is basically just a private ppa20:31
nixternalnot at all20:31
macooh dear20:32
nixternalACLs should be for ~kubuntu-dev20:32
Riddell~kubuntu-ninjas is whoever wants to help out  with KDE packaging, ~kubuntu-dev is the uploaders20:32
apacheloggeraye20:32
Riddellcurrently ~kubuntu-dev has the ~ubuntu-core-dev  people who are into KDE in it20:32
Riddellthe question is how do we add people  to  ~kubuntu-dev20:32
Riddelland  ScottK's suggestion  is have existing ~kubuntu-dev members approve them20:33
rgreeningdraw straws?20:33
rgreening:)20:33
nixternalI would say have a core and non-core20:33
nixternalthough...I don't think we need to (right now?)20:33
nixternalI say we create a team, or a group of members, who can be trusted to do developer applications20:33
Riddellnixternal: there's just one list, cjwatson will know how it's defined20:33
rgreeningRiddell: I would agree that we should be able to have ~kubuntu-dev members approve20:34
nixternala team of 3, with the KC with the final yay/nay?20:34
nixternalkind of like MC does for core-dev20:34
RiddellI don't think it needs another team, everyone in ~kubuntu-dev can decide20:35
apacheloggerKC is not a developer council20:35
nixternalRiddell: ya, that works, with the kc being the final say so20:35
Riddellwe  can  review that  if  it gets too big but that's not a  problem for the moment20:35
LureRiddell: I would suggest formal request on kubuntu-devel mailing list + 2 ACK required from existing members20:35
apacheloggernixternal: technically the KC can consist of no developers at all?20:35
rgreeningheh. we will need to write up the policies surrounding this.20:35
apacheloggerso non-developers would decided who becomes a developer?20:35
rgreeningas we develop them..20:35
nixternalalso, should we move all of the core stuff over to ~kubuntu-dev instead of ~kubuntu-members?20:35
ryanakcanixternal: I'm not too familiar with the archive reorganization, but I'd say split core / non-core, take me for example, you can probably trust my packaging for a simple app that isn't used very much, but a big complicated app used my many people, you wouldn't want me touching it (and I wouldn't want to either ;) )20:35
Riddellactually ~developer-membership-board would have the final say so20:36
Quintasan+1 on what ryanakca said20:36
* Lure is confused now - what will happen with existing motu/core-dev?20:36
nixternalapachelogger: no, ~kubuntu-dev members could recommend to the KC...I trust non-devs to trust those in ~kubuntu-dev20:36
apacheloggernixternal: that makes contribution more difficult20:36
nixternalLure: it will vanish20:37
ryanakcaFor the logs - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArchiveReorganisation20:37
macoryanakca: you can of course choose not to touch packages you're uncomfortable with20:37
apacheloggernixternal: yeah, but considering the KC can consist of non-devs what would they base their decsision on?20:37
nixternalapachelogger: how so? MOTU and Core Dev don't make it more difficult20:37
Lurenixternal: understand, but I though migration will be done somehow20:37
apacheloggerkubuntu-dev can decided on their own then as well :P20:37
Riddellnixternal: no reason not to keep the bzr open, we will review stuff before it's uploaded20:37
nixternalapachelogger: the approval or disapproval of the ~kubuntu-dev members20:37
* rgreening agrees with maco and apachelogger20:37
apacheloggernixternal: because the devs would have to merge20:37
ryanakcamaco: I can, but what's to prevent someone else from touching packages they aren't comfortable with? imho, having access to core packages is effectively like having root access on *everybody's* box, where as universe packages, you've been warned, they aren't supported, install at your own risk.20:38
apacheloggernixternal: I do not think that I will merge every change from Quintasan just because he might not yet be equiped with the access control for uploads20:38
Lureryanakca: I agree with maco that for start we should just base it on trust that people will do only stuff that they feel confortable with20:38
* ryanakca nods20:38
apacheloggernixternal: while I can turst that any member of kubuntu-dev is capable of reviewing a bzr log20:38
nixternalapachelogger: for something like that, then we can Quintasan ACL approval per app20:38
nixternalwe don't have to give access to every app20:39
apacheloggernixternal: that does not affect the branch, does it?20:39
QuintasanACL?20:39
nixternalno20:39
apacheloggerwell20:39
apacheloggerthat is my point :P20:39
apacheloggerbranches should stay in kubuntu-members20:39
macoryanakca: the point of the archive reorg is to change from core/non-core to having access to only packages you're involved wtih. though whether kubuntu should be split up into more pieces like parts of ubuntu desktop are is another question20:39
nixternalQuintasan: access control list20:39
ryanakcaah, ok20:39
apacheloggerat least until the whole ubuntu branch stuff takes off and we upload ACL can match push ACL20:39
apachelogger-we20:40
nixternalI think in the mean time we can put this off for further discussion, as I don't think it hampers the release of 9.10 at all20:40
rgreeningkubuntu is small enough that more than one group is too much...20:40
rgreeningKISS is a great principle :)20:40
macorgreening: thats what i thought20:40
ryanakca:)20:40
JontheEchidna+1 defer to later20:40
rgreeningwhat JontheEchidna said +120:40
rgreening:)20:40
* ryanakca nods, for later here too :)20:41
nixternalrgreening: KISS doesn't scale well :p20:41
rgreeningno scale here to worry about...20:41
Nightrosewe don't really have scaling problems right now ;-)20:41
rgreeningxactly20:41
rgreening:)20:41
nixternalforget about the future then!20:41
rgreeninglol20:41
nixternalthat's why twitter has issues, they only thought a few people would use, not millions20:42
rgreeningnext topic? Package updates20:42
* Nightrose misses amarok in the list ;-()20:42
rgreeningK3b fix for normalize - done20:42
JontheEchidnaarora, kdepim, kdebluetooth have been uploaded20:42
nixternal4.3.2?20:42
rgreeninga new arora fix is coming 0.10.1 tonight/tomorrow....20:42
JontheEchidna4.3.2 is being worked on by our crack team of ninjas20:42
nixternalwhy an upload of kdepim right now then?20:43
Riddellchanges from agateau20:43
JontheEchidnabecause kontact crashes on startup if you have a search folder20:43
rgreeningthere's a serious SSL authentication issue - it fails on some sites. icefox says he has it fixed and will release a poiunt rel tonight20:43
Lurewe are two releases behind with kipi-plugins and new digikam beta planned for this week20:43
Lureproblem is that kipi-plugins in debian depends on debhelper 7.3.16 - anyboady know why it is needed20:44
* Lure does not follow all debhelper changes20:44
RiddellI'd expect modax knows20:44
JontheEchidnaI don't think we would have to merge, would we?20:44
rgreeningLure: try building with the ubuntu ver..20:44
Lurergreening: will probably find some time over weekend to look into this20:45
JontheEchidnaso it looks like we have updates under control20:45
RiddellLure: will you be able to file  the FFe  requests?20:45
LureRiddell: will do, but will need core-dev support with them20:45
RiddellLure: ping me with that20:46
rgreeningLure: excellent20:46
LureRiddell: for digikam will ask for all versions up-to release candidate20:46
Riddell(of course I may reject it, no promises!)20:46
rgreeninghah20:46
LureRiddell: I know that you can be hard!20:46
Lure;-)20:46
* rgreening bows to our leader20:46
Riddellyuriy has an item20:46
rgreeningRiddell: before we move to that...20:47
rgreeningQt/KDE20:47
rgreeningDid you find out if qt 4.5.3 is ok for KDE 4.3.x20:47
Riddellrgreening: what about them?20:47
rgreeningsee above20:47
rgreening:)20:47
Riddellrgreening: I asked on  release-team, no replies yet.  there's no reason why it shouldn't be20:47
rgreeningok. Im good then20:48
yuriyok, what do we want to do with crash handling after release?20:48
RiddellI vote for Dr Konqi20:48
JontheEchidnaplease, let's use dr. konqi20:48
* Nightrose too20:48
Riddellwe should have purged our20:48
Lure+120:48
nixternaloh man20:48
apacheloggerthe doctor20:48
JontheEchidna...is in20:49
Riddellwe should have purged our crashes by then (in theory) so what's  left is upstreams20:49
Riddelland silently crashing is for weird desktops20:49
nixternal"in theory" :)20:49
rgreeningthe Dr. :)20:49
yuriyi'm not big on silently crashing either20:49
Riddellyuriy: at UDS  we did discuss the  option  of  having  apport on for some apps after release20:49
yuriythat would be possible, but would take some work20:49
Nightrosean dr konqui is actually decent and useful for upstream \o/20:49
Riddellwhich would make sense for some  of  our own ones20:49
rgreeninglike k3b20:50
yuriycan anybody think of specific things we would want that for?20:50
rgreeningha20:50
rgreeningusb-creator-kde20:50
JontheEchidnausing dr konqi just makes all upstream crashes languish here until I find the time to upstream them20:50
Riddellyuriy: update-notifier-kde,  ubiquity, usb-creator-kde, anything which uses pykde really  :)20:50
JontheEchidnaapport20:50
JontheEchidnanot dr konqi20:50
JontheEchidnausing apport just makes all upstream crashes languish here until I find the time to upstream them20:50
* ScottK is back20:51
JontheEchidna\o20:51
yuriyRiddell: none of those would have any crash handler?20:51
Riddellyuriy: no, just python backtraces  on the command line if you're lucky20:51
yuriyyeah i think hooks for those would be nice20:52
JontheEchidnapython support for dr. konqi'd be sweet20:52
Riddellyuriy: can you ask pitti how easy it would be  to have apport kept on for only those?20:52
yuriynixternal: have you looked at how to do that at all?20:52
yuriyRiddell: I will20:52
nixternalhooks are fairly easy and straight forward20:52
yuriyJontheEchidna: file a bug ;)20:52
Riddellnext item?20:53
RiddellQuintasan has an item about ibus, scary20:53
Quintasanhah, not really20:53
QuintasanI have noticed japanse/chinese input was broken since KDE 420:54
rgreeninglol20:54
JontheEchidnatoo bad the kimpanel widget doesn't support ibus :(20:54
QuintasanNow I have tested ibus along with anthy and it works20:54
Riddellwell I believe Qt has an ibus input method so if you have ibus working it should be ok20:55
Riddellbut there's no working KDE frontend for it20:55
Riddellkimpanel doesn't support the current ibus version and upstream never got back to me so has likely fallen  off the internet20:55
JontheEchidna:(20:55
QuintasanI got it to work very easily20:55
RiddellQuintasan: which?20:56
ScottKOn the list of stuff that needs updating, there's a new xz-utils release that fixes a file corruption bug.20:56
ScottK(sorry, wasn't here for that part)20:56
QuintasanRiddell: install ibus-anthy and run ibus-setup and add your desired input method20:56
RiddellQuintasan: but with the gnome frontend presumably?20:56
Quintasanthe problem is all of KDE apps have XIM as default IM selected20:56
RiddellQuintasan: selected where?20:57
QuintasanRiddell: right click on input box and Select Input Method20:57
Riddellhmm, where did that come from20:57
Riddellso does something need changed in Qt to use ibus?20:58
apacheloggerwe need to set Qt to use ibus by default20:58
Quintasanibus-setup looks like KDE app with out k-d-s so users wont even notice :P20:58
apacheloggerbecause I think that IM stuff is coming from Qt, isnt it?20:58
RiddellI wonder where  that is set20:59
rgreeningalmost out of time...20:59
RiddellQuintasan: fancy seeing if you can find out where that is set?20:59
rgreeningthough I dont think anything else is scheduled after us20:59
JontheEchidnadon't we have another hour?20:59
rgreeningnm21:00
QuintasanRiddell: I will look into it, I have tried export QT_IM_MODULE=ibus but it didn't help21:00
rgreeningI was thinking we had 1 hr... not 2 haha21:00
rgreeningmy bad21:00
RiddellQuintasan: I'll ask some Qt people too,  or maybe ArneGoetje as an idea21:00
* rgreening is used to 1 hr meetings21:00
JontheEchidnathis is a supermeeting21:00
Quintasanalso I have a question, shouldn't mplayerthumbs depend on mplayer OR mplayer-nogui?21:00
JontheEchidnaQuintasan: probably21:01
QuintasanAFAIK it works for KDE apps and mplayer package pulls gnome frontend21:01
Riddellquite probably, debdiffs always good21:01
JontheEchidnaI'll fix that when I update it for KDE 4.3.221:01
Riddellsorted21:01
Riddellepic battle No 3 time?21:01
JontheEchidnaIRC battle time21:02
Riddellwe have  two good  candidates I think21:02
Riddellso whatever the  choice the users  should  be winners21:02
Riddellmyself I use  irssi so  I don't have too  much  of  an  opinion21:02
rgreeningIs konversation still alpha or beta or rc?21:03
Riddellbut Konversation  has the most  mindshare21:03
JontheEchidnargreening: final release next week21:03
rgreeningcool21:03
Riddellrgreening: it's being released in line with our schedule21:03
apacheloggerpoor users always get irc forced onto them :(21:03
QuintasanI like Quassel for client-server build but it lacks scripting :/21:03
rgreeningI've gotten quite used to quassel haha21:03
RiddellQuintasan: client-server  isn't  what's on the CD so that's not a factor21:03
rgreeningto me it only matters if it's stable and lacking bugs21:03
Riddellhttps://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/QuasselvsKonvi shows more  red for  Quassel21:04
rgreeningquassel has no bugs affecting me ... I cant speak to konversation21:04
apacheloggerwell21:04
apacheloggerthe page is biased21:04
* Lure likes nick colors in konversation, but misses history from quassel ;-)21:04
apacheloggerbig time21:04
NightroseRiddell: last i checked that list it wasn't too accurate21:04
Nightroseyea21:04
* rgreening looks21:04
ScottKRiddell: Keep in mind that was written by someone who wanted Konversation.21:04
JontheEchidna:321:04
ScottKThe only conclusion you can draw from that page is that Quassel is not Koversation.21:05
ScottKQuassel has really matured in this cycle and I would like to keep it.21:05
QuintasanI prefer scripting so I'd like to have Konverastion21:05
JontheEchidnaQuassel lacks accessible help documentation as well as bi-directional text support21:05
apacheloggerso21:06
apacheloggeris the documentation up-to-date in konvi21:06
apacheloggerand is it translated21:06
JontheEchidnayes21:06
apacheloggerif not then its all the same really21:06
rgreeningIm on the fence. I loved konvi before quassel and now I love quassel21:06
ScottKQuassel also lacks the 'feature' of using language packs for translations, so it's translations work.21:06
apacheloggerehm21:07
JontheEchidnaDocumentation has been kept up to date upstream, and has official KDE translation support21:07
apacheloggerthat is a feature for quassel really21:07
ScottKRight, KDE translation support means we lose out21:07
JontheEchidnaAt least in Spanish, Quassel's translations are somewhat...lacking21:07
rgreeninganyone else on the fence or have a strong reason one way or the other?21:07
=== marjomercado is now known as marjo
* apachelogger thinks the user will not care either way :P21:08
Nightrosei like quassel and have not tried the kde 4 version of konversation so...21:08
rgreeningnixternal: what do our docs say? quassel or konversation ?21:08
ScottKI like the way notificatons are integrated into Quasell.  I think it's way better than just the icon blinking at me.21:08
JontheEchidnaScottK: the blinkign tray is not on by default, and KNotifications can easily be implemented in k-d-s21:08
apacheloggeragreed21:08
* ScottK did try Konversation KDE4 for a bit, and it felt a bit stale.21:08
ScottKJontheEchidna: Yeah, but even if it's on, it's not as fancy as what Quassel has.21:08
nixternalquassel21:09
JontheEchidnaspanish isn't even listed as an available translation in quassel :(21:09
apacheloggergeneral note: apparently quassel is all in all occupying less space than konvi21:09
ScottKIf you've been highlighted multiple times, now you can keep clicking on the tray icon and it'll cycle through the channels until you hit the one you want21:09
rgreeningI think the majority of people using IRC will choose the client they like anyway. Our job is to provide something that works well for the majority and looks great doing it.21:09
JontheEchidnaquassel occupies less space because it lacks docs21:09
apacheloggerfor consideration of CD real estate that is21:09
rgreening+1 for quassel (never thoufght Id say that)21:09
JontheEchidnachosing quassel is a negative for documentation and translation21:10
ScottKIt is a positive for consistency.21:10
apacheloggerwe chose k3b kde 421:10
apacheloggerthat is as negative for translations :P21:10
ScottKI disagree about translation, BTW.21:10
* apachelogger notes that one should not start to argue about translations with apachelogger21:10
* ScottK thinks he is on apachelogger's side on this one21:11
* ScottK hopes so21:11
Nightrosevote? (everyone seems to have given their arguments)21:11
apacheloggerTBH I dont think that the user will care21:11
JontheEchidnawhy is not having spanish a good thing for quassel?21:11
ScottKThe translations Quassel has are at least presented reliably.21:12
apacheloggereither way Kubuntu will again be partially untranslated21:12
JontheEchidnait seems that chosing KDE's official IRC client would be a no-brainer for a KDE distribution21:12
apacheloggerand either way they will get a working IRC client21:12
JontheEchidnarather than choosing one with tacked-on KDE integration and sub-par translations and documentation21:12
apacheloggereither way they will, as always, largely not read documentation21:12
apacheloggereither way they will install their preferred client anyway21:13
ScottKJontheEchidna: Konversation is not KDE's official IRC client21:13
apacheloggerconsidering they are using IRC enough to have a preferred client21:13
* Nightrose doesn't think quassel's kde integration is tacked on21:13
Nightroseit is rather good here21:13
* apachelogger does not think that any sensible argument can be made for either of those apps for karmic :S21:14
RiddellI can't think of a way to decide other than a council vote21:14
ScottKJontheEchidna: BTW, Sput just told me he'd love to add any translations that people provide.21:14
* ScottK neither21:14
JontheEchidnaScottK: that's fine. But I don't have any. Konversatoin does though21:14
* rgreening thinks he can convince wife to xlate quassel for pt and es21:14
rgreening:)21:14
RiddellI'm +1 for konversation due to notable non-KDE mindshare21:14
ScottKExcellent.21:15
JontheEchidnaQuassel lacks much of the UI consistency that KDE apps have, mainly in the categories of menubar layout and system tray context menus21:15
ScottKWho else is around on the council?21:15
* Lure thinks if there is not many good arguments to change, we should keep the same program as in previous release21:15
RiddellJontheEchidna, rgreening, Nightrose, apachelogger21:15
apacheloggerhm21:15
* Lure hates often changes to default programs21:15
JontheEchidna+1 Konversation21:15
rgreening+1 for quassel ...21:15
apacheloggerI must agree with Lure21:15
apachelogger+1 quassel21:15
rgreening2-221:15
RiddellNightrose: pressure21:15
JontheEchidnawe only changed to quassel because konversation wasn't ready yet21:15
* Nightrose is +1 for quassel on grounds of translation and latest improvements21:16
ScottKBTW, the layout of Quassel's systray context menu is identical to the KNM one21:16
ScottKSo if Quassel isn't KDE like, neither is that21:16
Riddellwell, it's a decision21:16
Nightroseand having it in jaunty21:16
LureJontheEchidna: agreed, but changing back should also have good reasoning21:16
JontheEchidnaLure: Konversation has better translation and documentatoin support21:17
JontheEchidnaofficially backed by KDE21:17
rgreeningthat battle went the full 3 rounds in a title fight.21:17
* Nightrose is relieved - i thought we'd end up cuddling all night21:17
JontheEchidnaI don't but the argument that we should just give up on konversation jsut because we'll have partially translated stuff elsewhere in kubuntu :/21:18
Nightrose;-)21:18
nixternalswitching to konvi breaks all kinds of freezes fyi21:18
* Quintasan can adapt to almost every IRC client so he doesn't care very much bout this21:18
Riddellany other business?21:18
nixternalFeature Freeze, User Interface Freeze, and in a way Documentation String Freeze21:18
nixternalyes21:19
apacheloggernixternal: we agreed to postpone the decision, so nvm21:19
JontheEchidnathen why did we say we'd decide at beta time in the first place?21:19
nixternalI will be gone from Oct. 15 until the 15th of November21:19
* apachelogger will create a nixternal bot for that time frame21:19
nixternalcycling my butt off, so I will miss the release of Karmic but will be back to kick off Lucid21:19
Riddellwe'll  need to  delay the release!21:19
nixternalapachelogger: a bot that does nothing, is that useful?21:19
apacheloggerdoes nothing and throw random word combinations at random times21:20
apacheloggerjust like the real one :D21:20
LureRiddell: that might help in getting digikam 1.0/final in ;-)21:20
nixternalI will be back Nov. 1221:20
nixternalthough I am sure I will be useless for a few days afterwards...almost 30 days of cycling straight21:20
* Quintasan wonders if he got sponsorship21:21
* apachelogger notes that no one proposed a release delay when he went to pursue geriatric care :P21:21
Riddellwe skipped over the ~kubuntu-dev decision, I'd like to suggest ~kubuntu-dev can approve new uploaders for itself in some suitably open manor (posting to  kubuntu-devel probably)21:21
ScottK+121:21
apachelogger+121:21
Nightrosesounds good21:21
ScottKI do think the council needs to vote on this21:21
* apachelogger either21:21
Riddellit's only for kubuntu packages to main as far as I know, universe is still through MC21:22
nixternalshouldn't that be a KC vote?21:22
nixternalI support whatever the KC decides (usually) :)21:22
rgreening+121:22
LureRiddell: I think requests should be done on mailing list and some minimal time for discussion (one week)21:22
RiddellLure: makes sense21:22
Lureand agree that KC should approve the process first21:22
apacheloggerwe are doing right now :P21:22
ScottKnixternal: Can you write us up something that looks a lot like the MOTU process?21:23
rgreening3 +'s21:23
ScottK(cjwatson said that would be easy to get approved by the TB/BMD)21:23
ScottKBMD/DMB21:23
nixternalyes21:24
JontheEchidna+121:24
* Lure needs to learn these new acronyms ;-)21:24
ScottKDeveloper Membership Board21:24
nixternalI need to run for a bit...I will be back in a bit...if you plan stuff for me, highlight me and let me know so I can add it to my todo list..and don't be vague where you have me scheduled to fix a bazillion bugs either :)21:24
LureScottK: thanks21:24
ScottKCurrently it's coincident with the Tech Board membership, but that may change21:24
nixternalbbiab21:24
ScottKnixternal: Fix a bazillion -121:25
Riddellany other any other business?21:25
rgreeningnot here21:25
Riddellthen enjoy your weekend21:26
Nightrosenot here either21:26
* rgreening notes that I am hungry though21:26
Nightroseo/21:26
Quintasan\o21:26
* ScottK notes rgreening hungry is not news21:26
* apachelogger demands shorter meetings 21:26
rgreeninglol21:26
Riddelltry not to spend it all infront of a laptop21:26
* rgreening notes ScottKneeds ot bring my coat to UDS21:26
ScottKThat's true21:27
apacheloggerout of fun you might want to write a spec for that :)21:27
JontheEchidnathen assign it to nixternal!21:28
JontheEchidnasince he loves getting specs assigned to him21:28
apacheloggerso he told us21:28
JontheEchidnaso I guess this meeting's over?21:34
=== Lure__ is now known as Lure
=== nizarus__ is now known as nizarus
=== Moot2 is now known as MootBot
=== fader_ is now known as fader|away
=== james_w` is now known as james_w
=== robbiew is now known as robbiew-afk
=== robbiew-afk is now known as robbiew
=== yofel_ is now known as yofel
=== robbiew is now known as robbiew-afk

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