[01:37] <Zachk18> Madpilot, welcome
[01:37] <Madpilot> hi Zachk18
[01:42] <Zachk18> so....been around long?
[01:44] <Madpilot> a long time, actually, just not active in docs the last few years
[01:44] <Madpilot> I helped to the massive rewrite of the 6.06 Dapper help files, then kind of drifted out of docwork
[01:49] <Madpilot> these days I'm so far out of the loop I basically loiter here out of habit :)
[18:43] <hollman> hello *
[18:46] <Zachk18> hello
[18:46] <Zachk18> welcome
[19:01] <cumulus007> Hi, as an Ubuntu translator, I noticed the presence of the Ubuntu Server Guide as a translatable package
[19:01] <cumulus007> I have a question regarding this: where are translated versions of this guide to be found?
[19:03] <hollman> Zachk18, cumulus007 I have a question, I'm from Bogota, Colombia, I'm interesting to be part of the oficial documentation team,
[19:04] <hollman> i like to translate the oficial documetatino to spanish, this is possible ?
[19:04] <cumulus007> hollman, I'm sorry, I can't help you with that, I'm a translator
[19:04] <cumulus007> You will have to contact the Spanish translation team, which can be found on Launchpad
[19:05] <Zachk18> and i can't help except point you in the right direction
[19:05] <Zachk18> which is where you already
[19:06] <hollman> 4 exapmple
[19:06] <hollman> we have https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Postfix
[19:07] <hollman> is possible translate this ? where can i put my contributions ?
[19:07] <Zachk18> hollman, if you are looking to join the doc team go here. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Zachk18 plenty of links to get you started
[19:08] <Rocket2DMn> hollman, that is a community documenation wiki page
[19:08] <Rocket2DMn> hollman, it can be translated, but anybody can update the page at any time, unlike the system docs
[19:08] <Rocket2DMn> hollman, I don't know where the spanish team keeps wiki documentation
[19:10] <hollman> Rocket2DMn, so, I have to be part of the oficial documentation wiki ?
[19:10] <Rocket2DMn> hollman, no, it depends on what you want to translate
[19:11] <Rocket2DMn> unfortunately I don't know much about doing translations on Launchpad, but the ones on LP would be for official system docs and other programs
[19:11] <hollman> Rocket2DMn, I want to translate the officia documentation wiki to spanish
[19:11] <Rocket2DMn> anything at  https://help.ubuntu.com/community is part of the Community Doc wiki, which anybody can edit
[19:12] <Rocket2DMn> hollman, system docs are made available in html format at https://help.ubuntu.com/ (note there is no /community) - this isn't a wiki area
[19:12] <hollman> Rocket2DMn, ok, but where can i put mi traslation ? for example in spanish
[19:13] <Rocket2DMn> hollman, let me see if i can find the resource for you
[19:13] <Rocket2DMn> here we go - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation
[19:13] <hollman> Rocket2DMn, , thank you very much
[19:13] <Rocket2DMn> no problem
[19:15] <dhillon-v10> hello
[19:15] <dhillon-v10> how is everyone doing
[19:15] <Zachk18> dhillon-v10, good
[19:15] <Zachk18> dhillon-v10, welcome
 a new person, nice meeting you :)
[19:16] <Zachk18> dhillon-v10, meaning i'm new or you are...cause i'm not
 me... sorry about that
[19:16] <Zachk18> dhillon-v10, it's cool
 I was actually waiting for phil, he was going to help me in writing a doc. can you help, I to focus better on my audience
[19:17] <Zachk18> sure
[19:19] <dhillon-v10> alright, so I am writing on gnome-display-appearance and do you me to send you the file
[19:19] <Zachk18> is this a doc or program
[19:19] <dhillon-v10> a doc.
[19:19] <Zachk18> ok
[19:19] <Zachk18> a link to the doc page workd
[19:20] <dhillon-v10> alright I am sending the file
 did you get the file, I don't think you have started downloading the file
[19:22] <Zachk18> dhillon-v10, i haven't started it yet
 alright :)
 it timed out :( I will send again just a sec.
[19:25] <Zachk18> i can't accept that
[19:25] <Zachk18> won't let me
 I will upload it somewhere just a sec.
[19:28] <dhillon-v10> how about this: http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=41603ece246aa8cec79b87b207592a1ce04e75f6e8ebb871
 I hope it works this time
[19:33] <Zachk18> got it. needs some work though
[19:33] <dhillon-v10> a lot of work, but I don't know which direction to proceed in
[19:34] <Zachk18> well sentence structure is always a good way to start
[19:34] <Zachk18> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuWithFirebirdDatabase that's a doc i'm working on...look at that for an example
[19:34] <Zachk18> bbiab
[19:35] <dhillon-v10> don't worry about that I was just writing something so I can get a baseline established I didn't really care about the structure
[19:35] <missaugustina> hi dhillon-v10 and Zachk18 - I think Phil had specific feedback for dhillon-v10 regarding the actual content and focusing on the end-user.
[19:35] <missaugustina> Zachk18 there is a lot more to good documentation than sentence structure and word choice.
 thanks for taking my side ;)
[19:36] <missaugustina> dhillon-v10, I haven't looked at your documentation, but if Phil's suggestion was to identify your audience, maybe start out by writing some Personas?
[19:36] <missaugustina> http://www.usability.gov is a U.S. usability website
[19:37] <missaugustina> Usability is totally focused on identifying the target audience. In technical documentation, we also test usability of the document and define a target audience.
 he was going to help me out today, but the problem is this: if I make it too basic it doesn't cover the main issues and if too complicated people would get confused...
[19:37] <missaugustina> dhillon-v10 Well, a trend I see with new doc folks is to focus too much on the "icing" or the easy to fix stuff. The core stuff is often overlooked ;)
[19:38] <missaugustina> dhillon-v10 exactly the connundrum :) I can look at your doc and give some suggestions
[19:38] <missaugustina> Usually the way I work around this is to write up a few personas
[19:38] <dhillon-v10> please do, http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=41603ece246aa8cec79b87b207592a1ce04e75f6e8ebb871
[19:38] <missaugustina> Personas are fictional profiles of typical people who will use your documenation
[19:39] <missaugustina> You create a "character" or set of "characters" and then write to them. It's just a writing tool that helps you to focus your documentation.
 phil gave me ideas on writing personas and also some examples but I am still a bit confused about *what* exactly to focus on
[19:39] <dhillon-v10> do you want me to  give you some sample questions I found regarding display
[19:41] <missaugustina> OK that makes sense. Usually I search the forums for common questions
[19:41] <missaugustina> Sure!
[19:41] <missaugustina> i just downloaded your doc and I'm looking at it.
[19:42] <dhillon-v10> just a sec.
[19:42] <missaugustina> I just skimmed it, but I have some suggestions for better addressing your audience. :)
[19:42] <missaugustina> First off, with system documentation, we're writing to the most inexperienced user
[19:42] <missaugustina> Do not assume that the user knows what a graphics card is, for instance
[19:42] <dhillon-v10> most commonly people are asking about setting up dual monitoring, the guide for that is about 5 pages, how should I go about including that in
[19:43] <Zachk18> missaugustina, where did you download his doc from? the website he posted it to?
[19:43] <missaugustina> Define everything. It's better to start at that level and then you can remove things if it seems to basic
[19:43] <missaugustina> Zachk18, yes
[19:43] <Zachk18> missaugustina, ok jut wondering
 but still it is quite hard for me to condense 5 page information in 2 paragraphs, don't you think so
[19:44] <missaugustina> dhillon-v10: Did they say it needs to be 2 paragraphs?
[19:44] <missaugustina> dhillon-v10: I would consider sub-sections
[19:44] <missaugustina> Break things up into steps and then each section represents one step of the procedure
 not really, I see where you are getting at :)
[19:45] <missaugustina> Start out with an outline.
[19:45] <missaugustina> 1. What is Dual Monitor
[19:45] <dhillon-v10> this makes more sense, because now the front page, will be only a few paragraphs and the rest could be a bit long
[19:45] <dhillon-v10> you are smart
[19:46] <missaugustina> 2. Setting up Dual Monitor with a supported Graphics Card
[19:47] <missaugustina> And you can break that down however it makes sense.
[19:47] <missaugustina> Bite-sized chunks :)
[19:47] <dhillon-v10> alright, so that would be the first step then
[19:47] <dhillon-v10> but what about the graphics card issue
[19:47] <missaugustina> Then a third  section to address common graphics card issues
[19:47] <dhillon-v10> oh, never mind
[19:47] <missaugustina> 3. Common Issues with Dual Monitor
[19:48] <missaugustina> Something like that
[19:48] <missaugustina> So that would be one section -- Dual Monitors
[19:48] <missaugustina> The overall doc would be Gnome Display or whatever the title is of the application
[19:48] <dhillon-v10> alright thanks for help, I will modify this doc. and can you privately send me your email address if you don't mind, I can send you the doc. when completed
[19:48] <dhillon-v10> for review
[19:49] <missaugustina> You divide it into chapters, Chapter 1. Dual Monitor, Chapter 2. Monitor Resolution, Chapter 3. Xorg.conf or something like that
[19:49] <missaugustina> Yeah no problem
[19:49] <missaugustina> First step though, I would write out personas.
[19:49] <dhillon-v10> thank you very much for help
[19:49] <missaugustina> Second step, write an  outline of what each section is and what it will cover
[19:50] <missaugustina> Do that at the high level first, then you can move your writing into the appropriate section
[19:50] <dhillon-v10> alright, so this would be like a guide rather than a page long document, I was just looking for that
[19:50] <missaugustina> If you are more comfortable with doing writing and not sure about outline, I can help you figure out the outline
[19:50] <missaugustina> yeah, is this going to be in the system docs or wiki?
[19:50] <dhillon-v10> please go on :)
[19:51] <dhillon-v10> system docs
[19:51] <missaugustina> Excellent! Yes, then do an outline. Look at the networking section to get ideas of how complicated sections have been organized
[19:52] <missaugustina> I just submitted usb-creator and I have a copy on my wiki page if you want to see how I organized that
[19:52] <dhillon-v10> that's another good idea, I will look at that
[19:52] <missaugustina> Note that the wiki doc isn't the exact same as what was submitted to the docs (mdke and i did additional edits)
[19:53] <dhillon-v10> I see now the networking section is organized just as you said :)
[19:53] <missaugustina> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AugustinaBlair/MakeUsbStartupDraft
[19:54] <missaugustina> With the usb-creator I didn't define "personas" but defined "use cases"
[19:54] <missaugustina> That application is pretty focused and  straightforward
[19:55] <missaugustina> Use Cases are the functionality you would expect a person to perform with the application
[19:55] <dhillon-v10> so, the use cases are the personas, I have seen those a lot in other wikis just didn't know what they were
[19:55] <missaugustina> It comes from Software Engineering
[19:55] <missaugustina> No
[19:55] <missaugustina> Use Cases are defined functionality at a high level
[19:55] <dhillon-v10> well a bit like personas I meant to say
[19:55] <missaugustina> Personas are profiles of typical users
[19:55] <missaugustina> Nope, not at all like personas :)
[19:55] <dhillon-v10> okay, never mind :)
[19:55] <dhillon-v10> I understand now
[19:55] <missaugustina> Personas might mention what use cases the person might use
[19:56] <dhillon-v10> a bit, I will make the outline and email it to you probably tomorrow
[19:56] <missaugustina> Personas describe the user, the use case describes the functionality
[19:56] <missaugustina> Take your time :) thanks for contributing :)
[19:57] <dhillon-v10> thank you very much for helping me, this is exactly what I was looking for : I wish I was just as smart :)
[19:57] <missaugustina> LOL its not about being smart.
[19:57] <missaugustina> Just about getting the education/training/experience :)
[19:57] <missaugustina> I've been working in the tech industry for 10+ years.
[19:58] <dhillon-v10> well that could be true, I am in high school so that's probably why
[19:58] <missaugustina> Use Cases and other terms like that come from Software Engineering which would be covered in a software engineering course.
[19:59] <missaugustina> Personas come from usability which would be covered in a Usability or User Interace Design course.
[19:59] <missaugustina> If you were studying anything computer related in college :)
[19:59] <dhillon-v10> that makes sense too, when I go to college I will probably learn those
[19:59] <missaugustina> Yep, if it's a good program. And you'll hear them if you work in the industry... a lot. :D
[20:00] <missaugustina> Anyways good luck and feel free to email me your stuff. I'm more than happy to help you out. Thanks!
[20:00] <dhillon-v10> alright, thanks again, and bye
[20:32] <hollman> Todos cordialmente invitados a charla de reporte de bugs y traducciones al proyecto Ubuntu en #ubuntu-classroom-es
[21:48] <mdke> evening all
[21:54] <missaugustina> Good evening mdke
[21:58] <ZachieK> mdke, hey
[22:29] <mdke> Gwaihir: wow, usb-creator already translated into Italian, impressive!
[22:29] <mdke> and spanish
[22:29] <Gwaihir> :)
[22:29] <Gwaihir> the global jam works!
[22:30] <mdke> yeah, definitely
[22:33] <Gwaihir> heading to be... ciao!
[22:33] <Gwaihir> s/be/bed