[18:10]  * robbiew waves
[18:10] <jdstrand> o/
[18:11] <kees> o/
[18:11] <kees> jdstrand: go ahead and start, I'll take up the rear again
[18:12] <jdstrand> ok
[18:12] <jdstrand> though I don't have too much
[18:12] <jdstrand> last week I did get the oo.o update out, did iso testing and worked on libvirt upstreaming (among various other CVE/bug tasks)
[18:13] <jdstrand> I am close to sending my revised libvirt patch upstream. they are supposed to release a new version friday, so I need to get that out soon
[18:13] <jdstrand> I hope to send it later today
[18:14] <jdstrand> I plan to do the icu and devscripts updates this week. I'll get back to updating gnutls after that (small regression reported in Debian that no one has reported in Ubuntu)
[18:14] <jdstrand> that's it from me
[18:14] <kees> mdeslaur: your turn
[18:15] <mdeslaur> I'm currently working on backuppc, will release it tomorrow probably
[18:15] <mdeslaur> and after that, am going down the cve list
[18:15] <mdeslaur> that's it
[18:15] <jdstrand> oh, I'm triager this week
[18:15]  * jdstrand also forgets to state his role
[18:15] <jdstrand> s/also/always/
[18:16] <mdeslaur> oh, well, I'm happy place
[18:16] <kees> I'm on community, gonna test the symlink-mode-777 glib2.0 thing which is now built.  focusing on getting small bugs out of the way for RC, and then going to devote 100% time to help with the eucalyptus root-wrapper issue
[18:16] <kees> I've started smb on a kernel update, since the list is growing
[18:17] <kees> need to ping caleb again too on SELinux bits
[18:18] <kees> (pinged)
[18:18] <jdstrand> we need to get the dhclient/apparmor workaround out of karmic too-- kees, did you upload that yet? (I thought I remembered you saying you were going to)
[18:18] <kees> I haven't uploaded that yet -- it requires adding all the conf-removing code to the maintainer scripts
[18:18] <kees> was going to clone it from procps
[18:18] <jdstrand> cool
[18:19] <jdstrand> I've got a couple of bugs I plan to fix this week too
[18:19] <kees> I'll likely hit that after the euca stuff
[18:19] <jdstrand> (not in that, just some other stuff)
[18:19] <kees> I need to get #307019 implemented too
[18:19] <kees> I did half of it, but the rest remains
[18:20] <jdstrand> ah, yeah
[18:20] <jdstrand> users-admin... always a pain
[18:20] <kees> *grumble*
[18:20] <kees> anyway... that's it.  any general items/
[18:20] <kees> ?
[18:20] <kees> robbiew: anything from you?
[18:21] <robbiew> not really
[18:21] <robbiew> just fix bugs! :P
[18:21] <robbiew> lol
[18:21] <kees> that's cool.  :)  heh
[18:21] <jdstrand> stefanlsd has been plugging away at http://people.ubuntu.com/~stefanlsd/synclist.html
[18:21] <mdeslaur> jdstrand: yeah, that's pretty cool.
[18:21] <jdstrand> yeah, totally
[18:22] <jdstrand> once it is solid, we should probably just do it automatically for universe/multiverse, and perhaps sends debdiffs somewhere for main/restricted
[18:22] <kees> ooh, nice.
[18:23] <kees> jdstrand: as an archive admin, what would be the best way to get a "please sync these for karmic" report?
[18:23] <kees> and how should that interact with FFe?
[18:24] <jdstrand> well, they are bugs, not features, so no FFe (unless it is week before release)
[18:24] <jdstrand> as for requesting a sync... I'm not sure
[18:24] <jdstrand> I'd need to think about it-- maybe sync to ubuntu-security-proposed
[18:25] <jdstrand> sync-source.py doesn't have a ppa option
[18:26]  * jdstrand wonders if he could sync directly to -security using --to-component
[18:26] <jdstrand> and --to-suite
[18:26] <jdstrand> anyhoo, would need to think about that
[18:26] <kees> jdstrand: I meant prior to karmic releasing...
[18:26] <jdstrand> oh
[18:26] <jdstrand> heh
[18:27] <jdstrand> no FFe required
[18:27] <kees> but yes, the rest is important too
[18:27] <jdstrand> a standard requestsync bug using the approrpiate target would be fine
[18:27] <kees> a separate bug for each package?
[18:27] <jdstrand> target and source
[18:28] <jdstrand> I think so, or, I could just do it myself
[18:28] <jdstrand> why don't I just do it myself
[18:29] <kees> heh, ok
[18:29] <kees> ok, meeting over?
[18:29] <jdstrand> that's it for me
[18:29] <mdeslaur> yep
[18:30] <kees> cool, thanks!  :)
[18:30] <jdstrand> o/
[22:58] <cprofitt> #startmeeting
[22:58] <MootBot> Meeting started at 16:58. The chair is cprofitt.
[22:58] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[22:58] <cprofitt> [TOPIC] Course development workflow update
[22:58] <MootBot> New Topic:  Course development workflow update
[22:59] <cprofitt> pleia you are on stage
[22:59] <cprofitt> pleia2, you are on stage
[22:59] <bodhi_zazen> go pleia2
[22:59] <pleia2> oy, jumping the gun by a minute!
[22:59] <cprofitt> lol
[22:59] <pleia2> well, this is actually doctormo's :)
[22:59] <pleia2> hi doctormo! can you give us an update on the course development workflow you've been working on with bioselement?
[22:59] <doctormo> of course
[23:00] <doctormo> So as people have seen ont he mailing list
[23:00] <doctormo> I posted some thoughts on how we administrativly organised the development arm of the project.
[23:00] <doctormo> the idea is to make the development both administratable and easy to use.
[23:00] <doctormo> The problems have been that the better the administration, the worse the ease for developers of courses.
[23:01] <bodhi_zazen> LOL
[23:01] <doctormo> For instance ODF is good for writers, but a nightmare for patching, translating or publishing for multiple formats.
[23:01] <pleia2> and diffs in bzr are nice, but not really possible with binary odt files
[23:02] <doctormo> OTOH docbook and TeX were bad for writters (who didn't have any prior experence) and good for translations, and branching.
[23:02] <doctormo> So we settled for asciidoc, since it easily exports to docbook, gives us the maxium amount of features with only the barrier of editing text instead of rich-text.
[23:03] <doctormo> Now asciidoc allows us to compile documents from multiple files,
[23:03] <doctormo> include them
[23:03] <doctormo> So to decide what documents we need to make for courses me and BiosElement created a few branches to test out various structures.
[23:04] <doctormo> Mine turned out to be more officious and not so easy, so working together we've got a way of laying it out
[23:05] <doctormo> Basically like before the root will contain a directory per course, each directory has a Contact and Notes files for any developer realted documentation.
[23:05] <pleia2> emergency at work, bbs
[23:06] <doctormo> It will also contain a template directory
[23:06] <cprofitt> Will contacts be used for all authors, contributors, etc?
[23:06] <doctormo> cprofitt: yes, and to point to the right mailing list for review.
[23:06] <dinda> are you proposing that all course authoring be done in this way?
[23:07] <doctormo> dinda: There is no other way that fits with how written works can be published and translated.
[23:08] <dinda> it just seems as though you are way overly complicating things
[23:09] <doctormo> dinda: It does seem that way, but there are no suggestions that are less complex that fix as many problems.
[23:09] <cprofitt> dinda, from what perspective?
[23:09] <dinda> i realize translations are an issue but so is just getting the first course done
[23:09] <doctormo> dinda: The first courses are done
[23:10] <cprofitt> doctormo, for my clarification as well this is an issue because you want the courses to be both Moodle and 'written' form?
[23:10] <dinda> can I outline how I use Moodle to develop a course?
[23:10] <doctormo> dinda: You can, but I can't see how you can get that data back into a tool as powerful as launchpad for collaberation.
[23:10] <doctormo> But first I think I will finish off?
[23:10] <dinda> go for it
[23:10] <bodhi_zazen> Well, I would like to say thank you to doctormo and bioselement for looking at options
[23:12] <doctormo> See the common idea is that we need data to be managable. Bzr and lp are the way to do that, it's always worked for developers, there's just some holes in the usability for common folk.
[23:12] <cprofitt> doctormo, I would like to have an understanding
[23:13] <cprofitt> is the reason to not work in Moodle so that courses can be 'published' as written work as well as a Moodle course?
[23:13] <doctormo> We'd like the courses to be published through moodle and published through other media, physical, non-physical, irc, pdfs, we'd like to encourage the maximum amount of mixing that doesn't burden us with administrative tasks such as managing user rights.
[23:14] <doctormo> In fact I never want to have to enable someone's account so they can join in.
[23:14] <cprofitt> doctormo, so what will be done about the parts that do not translate from Moodle to other formats?
[23:15] <doctormo> cprofitt: A way will be found, or they will be cut. There isn't much course data that can't be. Quizes come to mind. All other features of moodle are student/teacher/classroom data, not course data.
[23:15] <cprofitt> and... to ask another question... if we are going to have all these other formats... what is the role of Moodle in this... what does it do that the other 'formats' can not?
[23:15] <dinda> doctormo: you're always going to have to enable or approve an account or change permissions/roles when some becomes something other than a student
[23:16] <doctormo> dinda: In moodle yes, but that's why it's not suitable for development.
[23:16] <cprofitt> doctormo, I find Moodle suitable for development of Moodle courses
[23:16] <dinda> but that's EXACTLY what Moodle is -a course development environment
[23:16] <cprofitt> it is, in fact, where I have done all my Moodle course development
[23:16] <doctormo> cprofitt: Moodle has management features wich can be used to organise classes and students, so I believe.
[23:16] <cprofitt> doctormo, it does... as well as to manage development of courses
[23:17] <cprofitt> the company I did work for had a 'development' server
[23:17] <doctormo> One person creating courses is not a community creating courses.
[23:17] <cprofitt> and a 'production' server
[23:17] <cprofitt> courses were designed and tested on the development server and migrated to the 'production' server when complete
[23:17] <dinda> doctormo: yes, there is a course creator role that is even above instructor role
[23:17] <cprofitt> refinements were made on the development server.
[23:17]  * cprofitt nods as dinda
[23:18] <cprofitt> an admin role too
[23:18] <dinda> cprofitt: we use the same model; development/test server then migrate to production when ready to publish
[23:18] <doctormo> Right, and those rolls are administrative burdens, we don't have time to manage our tools like the pros do. The more that is handled by social mechanics the better.
[23:18] <dinda> doctormo: now as far as being able to publish a written version of a course, then no, that's always gonig to be another step; Moodle is for online courses
[23:19] <doctormo> If we're constantly enabeling people to create new branch courses, we'll never get anything done.
[23:19] <dinda> doctormo: all you're doing is shifting the admin to LP/BZR
[23:19] <cprofitt> two things:  1) I have not used the asciidocs so I will not try to speak to compare the tools, but  2) have you developed a course in Moodle doctormo ?
[23:19] <doctormo> dinda: And bzr/lp does the job without user input.
[23:19] <dinda> you still have to create the core commitet team and have a process for those rights
[23:19] <doctormo> cprofitt: I tried, it wasn't possible. failed.
[23:20] <cprofitt> doctormo, you could not make a course?
[23:20] <doctormo> I couldn't understand the majority of the interface to be honest. From what I could grasp at, it was asking me to create resources.
[23:21] <cprofitt> to be honest doctormo, until a person has used both I do not feel we have anyone qualified to decide which to use
[23:21] <cprofitt> if you did not understand the interface then you can not honestly make claims that A is better than B
[23:21] <cprofitt> just that you know A better
[23:21] <dinda> doctormo: that's pretty standard process for any LMS or even website. . .
[23:22] <doctormo> cprofitt: the problem is, I see moodle as a sufficient development platform for a company. but not for a community, it lacks a lot fo the tools we use to make random developments and merge in the best ones.
[23:22] <cprofitt> Did you look at the course I uploaded on how to make Moodle course before trying to make yours?
[23:22] <doctormo> Yes
[23:22] <dinda> doctormo: you upload all the resources (images/files, etc) then link to them from your main site - makes it easier to reuse objects
[23:22] <cprofitt> doctormo, I don't see how you could make such a judgment prior to understanding the tool
[23:23] <doctormo> cprofitt: Because while I failed at making a course propperly, the tool is structured in a way that would make such development either hacked on top or impossible.
[23:23] <dinda> doctormo: Moodle was designed to be used by teachers - it really can't be any simpler
[23:23] <doctormo> Unless you can prove otherwise.
[23:24] <cprofitt> doctormo, sorry to be blunt here. Your 'failure' to make a course does not require me to prove anything
[23:24] <bodhi_zazen> doctormo: I must admit I am not sure where you are going with this discussion
[23:24] <cprofitt> I would love to work with you and assist you in developing a course...
[23:24] <bodhi_zazen> modle is used by many people and so obviously it works
[23:25] <cprofitt> but I would never declare an authoritative opinion on a product just because it escaped me...
[23:25] <bodhi_zazen> so I can not tell what exactly you are having a problem with, a feature that is missing or that you need assistance learning the interface
[23:25] <cprofitt> hence why I refuse to make a claim concerning asciidocs
[23:25] <dinda> doctormo: no there's no reason why you can't use the process you want to develop your course - but we should be able to use Moodle as our standard
[23:25] <cprofitt> I think perhaps you and I should trade-off doctormo - you teach me asciidocs and I can teach you Moodle
[23:26] <doctormo> Seems like we should split the project, I'm not comfortable using moodle and now I feel like I'm being forced out.
[23:26]  * cprofitt sighs
[23:26] <bodhi_zazen> Outside of the people in this room , I have a very close friend who uses Moodle to develop courses for the local university, so if you need help ...
[23:26] <bodhi_zazen> split the project into what ?
[23:26] <doctormo> It's true that I should be taught
[23:26] <dinda> doctormo: not at all, if you're comfortable with your process, that's great
[23:26] <cprofitt> doctormo, we are offering to assist you in learning Moodle
[23:26] <doctormo> But I don't like the idea of using moodle as our standard
[23:26] <cprofitt> and I am offering to learn asciidocs
[23:27] <cprofitt> well we looked at many LMS variants and chose Moodle as a group doctormo
[23:27] <doctormo> the only thing against bzr/lp is that it's uncomfortable too.
[23:27] <cprofitt> the only think against bzr/lp is its not an LMS
[23:27] <doctormo> cprofitt: I thought that was for a publishing point, I didn't think we'd gone and done it in for a development site too.
[23:27] <dinda> doctormo: then why even have a Moodle server, in your workflow?  you can accomplish the same thing with just a website
[23:28] <cprofitt> and for the record can we, as a group, not all threaten to split the project when the group doesn't tag along with one person's idea
[23:28] <doctormo> dinda: Could you? I looked into that, websites don't have forums or marking or student rosters.
[23:28] <cprofitt> this is the second time that has happened and it is childish
[23:28] <dinda> cprofitt: +1
[23:28] <doctormo> cprofitt: +1
[23:28] <cprofitt> bodhi_zazen, we looked at Sakai, Moodle and one other... do you remember the name?
[23:29] <dinda> doctormo: exactly, all of that is integrated into the Moodle workflow, those are just elements of the overall course
[23:29] <dinda> http://barrysampson.com/2009/04/open-source-lms-10-alternatives-to-moodle/
[23:29] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://barrysampson.com/2009/04/open-source-lms-10-alternatives-to-moodle/
[23:30] <dinda> those are all the open source alternatives - they all do the same thing, slight variations
[23:30] <doctormo> I thought moodle was the chosen LMS
[23:30] <cprofitt> Moodle is well embedded in K-12
[23:30] <dinda> Moodle was chosen months ago - it's as good/bad and any other LMS
[23:30] <cprofitt> and Moodle was what we chose, as a group, after reviewing several
[23:31] <doctormo> sounds like that choice is settled then
[23:31] <BiosElement> Frankly, while I dislike moodle I have to support it because from what I've seen, nothing is better.
[23:31] <cprofitt> bodhi_zazen found technical issues with most of the others
[23:31] <dinda> It's also what Canonical uses - so if the group ever migrates to them hosting it wold be an easier process
[23:31] <dinda> BiosElement: +!
[23:31] <bodhi_zazen> +1 BiosElement
[23:31] <dinda> +1 even
[23:31] <bodhi_zazen> that is what we all feel about Moodle
[23:32] <dinda> all require a certain investment in learning how to use
[23:32] <cprofitt> +1
[23:32] <bodhi_zazen> We found a very nice alternate, but no one could install it
[23:32] <cprofitt> Moodle was far from perfect...
[23:32] <cprofitt> but it was the best all around package
[23:32] <cprofitt> Sakai right?
[23:32] <dinda> but Moodle is specifically designed to just give to a teacher and set them loose  to make courses
[23:32] <cprofitt> +1 dinda
[23:32] <BiosElement> After you run the teacher through 3 months of training ;) But yes, It's the best lms currently.
[23:33] <cprofitt> BiosElement, actually in my school we have 4 teachers who got 1 four hour session -- they are using Moodle
[23:33] <dinda> BiosElement: dunno, I've had several non-techy teachers jump right in and get going on developing in Moodle
[23:33] <dinda> the thing, the metaphors make sense to educators
[23:33] <BiosElement> Well then maybe it's the techy people like me who can't stand it >.<
[23:34] <cprofitt> BiosElement, I am a techie and I found Moodle to be fall out of bed easy...
[23:34] <cprofitt> just limited
[23:34] <dinda> BiosElement: it models how they create courses in the real world
[23:34] <cprofitt> +1 dinda
[23:35] <dinda> you create your course overview, topics, find your resources for each and group into Moodle by either Topic or other options
[23:35] <dinda> ok, so back to the topic - wher are we?
[23:36]  * cprofitt blinks twice
[23:36] <cprofitt> I think what this has revealed is that we need to reaffirm that Moodle is our LMS
[23:36] <dinda> I propose we let course authors chose their preferred workflow
[23:36] <doctormo> We were talking about the structure being used by me to develop courses.
[23:36] <cprofitt> and we need to offer some training to 'developers'
[23:36] <cprofitt> so that they can learn how to use Moodle...
[23:37] <cprofitt> from that we really need to 'build a how-to course' that is self-paced
[23:37] <bodhi_zazen> Well, does moodle use "developers" ?
[23:37]  * BiosElement coughs
[23:37] <cprofitt> they are caused course developers
[23:37] <cprofitt> but not 'developers' as in programmers
[23:37] <bodhi_zazen> Ah
[23:37] <doctormo> dinda: Choice like that can cause a lot of lost energy, it diserpates. If a user develops a course painting words into corel draw, do we allow that?
[23:37] <cprofitt> nor 'developers' as in machines that create photographs
[23:38] <bodhi_zazen> lol cprofitt
[23:38] <dinda> doctormo: why not?  the issue seems to be just getting content/courses developed
[23:38] <cprofitt> doctormo, I lost touch with this group, but I thought the target was always Moodle
[23:38] <cprofitt> if a person wants to develop it in ABC program and then paste it in too Moodle I do not care...
[23:38] <cprofitt> but the final course must be in Moodle IMHO
[23:38] <doctormo> cprofitt: The target still is, the development shifted since there were people writing courses and no one teaching moodle.
[23:38] <bodhi_zazen> well doctormo , we have not discussed the full scope of courses we wish to host , but I suppose courses will need to be agreed on
[23:38] <dinda> doctormo: Linuxchix lets course developers chose their workflow and it works; granted they've only had less than a half dozen courses ever published
[23:39] <doctormo> But I've always supported moodle as a publishing end point.
[23:39] <doctormo> bodhi_zazen: I think all that is on the wiki isn't it?
[23:39] <dinda> doctormo: the bigger issue is getting content, IF the project gets to the point that there are so many courses, you have to limit contributors then that's a good thing
[23:39] <cprofitt> then we can offer asciidoc and Moodle as a development environment?
[23:39] <BiosElement> Moodle is the final product users read, not what course authors use. >.>
[23:40] <doctormo> cprofitt: Can we get moodle developers to dump their docs into text and send them to the mailing list for peer review?
[23:40] <dinda> doctormo: I assure you, once that point is reached, then folks will be asking for a more standard workflow and templates but right now we have what 3 course developers?
[23:40] <BiosElement> If we use moodle we will fall into the trap of "Quick and Easy" which will quickly become "Impossible to Update".
[23:40] <bodhi_zazen> If the final product is Moodle, why not allow course developers to select the tools they use ?
[23:40] <bodhi_zazen> some may use moodle, some may use other tools
[23:40] <cprofitt> BiosElement, what makes Moodle impossible to update?
[23:40] <dinda> BiosElement: ditto
[23:41] <doctormo> bodhi_zazen: it'll need work to bring it back into sane development formats.
[23:41]  * bodhi_zazen likes quick and easy
[23:41] <cprofitt> doctormo, I would think courses should be reviewed as a course
[23:41] <dinda> you udate it the same way you updates anything
[23:41] <cprofitt> as in hosted in Moodle
[23:41] <bodhi_zazen> doctormo: why ?
[23:41] <BiosElement> cprofitt, From my expirence with using several moodle sites as both a student and a developer, I've yet to see one that actually works 'well' and is easily updated.
[23:41] <cprofitt> parts might be reviewed outside of that... but how can the end product be reviewed outside the framework of the final?
[23:41] <doctormo> bodhi_zazen: so the courses can be translated, experimented with, published in other ways.
[23:41] <BiosElement> Also I'll note the lack of VCS as a major problem with moodle.
[23:42] <bodhi_zazen> but that is not our initial goal doctormo
[23:42] <bodhi_zazen> we are publishing on Moodle
[23:42] <doctormo> bodhi_zazen: Of course
[23:42] <cprofitt> Moodle can also 'link out' to other resources...
[23:42] <bodhi_zazen> translation is a whole project onto itself
[23:42] <doctormo> bodhi_zazen: The inital goal was to write a course, I did that in ODF and it now needs to be translated into asciidoc so it can be managed.
[23:42] <cprofitt> as a teacher might give reading assignments you can assign 'out side content' in a Moodle activity
[23:42] <bodhi_zazen> and "published in other ways" means what exactly ?
[23:43] <bodhi_zazen> Why did you not write a course in Moodle ?
[23:43] <doctormo> bodhi_zazen: It means pdfs in websites, it means face book apps it means things not thought of yet.
[23:43] <BiosElement> Also it means nicely made printed docs
[23:44] <bodhi_zazen> Well doctormo , no offense, but those goals are secondary at best
[23:44] <bodhi_zazen> IMO at least
[23:44] <dinda> http://www.linux-for-education.org/
[23:44] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.linux-for-education.org/
[23:44] <BiosElement> bodhi_zazen, Why make them secondary when they can be easily made with minimal effort? That's frankly just silly and short sighted for the "quick and simple" way.
[23:44] <bodhi_zazen> I mean what you are asking is a very tall order for something like Moodle
[23:44] <dinda> There's an example of site built all in Moodle to host linux/foss course materials
[23:44] <cprofitt> dinda, that is Moodle
[23:45] <bodhi_zazen> Because BiosElement , we are developing a Moodle site, which is more then printing PDF documents, lol
[23:45] <cprofitt> nice example
[23:46] <bodhi_zazen> BiosElement: doctormo what you may wish to do as authors is fine with me, but I do not understand why we need to change the core goals of this project
[23:46] <doctormo> then it sounds like we _do_ have two projects here, and I'm not suggesting that as a course of action. I'm saying that as an observation.
[23:46] <doctormo> Those who want to write courses and those who want to publish moodle courses.
[23:46] <cprofitt> doctormo, here is a good link from dinda's site -- http://www.linux-for-education.org/course/view.php?id=28
[23:46] <BiosElement> bodhi_zazen, ...You're not listening and quite frankly I don't want to continue arguing this very simple point. There are two options. #1: Use a standard format which will be easy to update in the future and distribute in any forms needed or #2: WYSIWYG with web soup tags, no VCS and fixed formats.
[23:46] <bodhi_zazen> what two projects doctormo ?
[23:47] <bodhi_zazen> That sounds a little hostile BiosElement
[23:47] <bodhi_zazen> I have listened
[23:47] <cprofitt> BiosElement, I have not found Moodle hard to update...
[23:47] <bodhi_zazen> cprofitt: and others are indicating Moodle can do what we want
[23:47] <doctormo> BiosElement: There's no need to get aggressive, we can work this out.
[23:47] <cprofitt> I have used it to develop a course and evolve it as information changes
[23:48] <dinda> BiosElement: I don't see those options as being mutally exclusive
[23:48] <cprofitt> Honestly I think we can have a loose work flow
[23:48] <bodhi_zazen> Moodle is fairly standard
[23:48] <dinda> BiosElement: and you have to go back to primary goal of the project - to get materials developed
[23:48] <cprofitt> use the tools you want, but final review is in Moodle
[23:48] <BiosElement> bodhi_zazen, Apologies if It sounded hostile. Just Was not intended to be.
[23:48] <cprofitt> as it is what we deliver courses with
[23:48] <doctormo> bodhi_zazen: It can't do what I want, I just want to write courses, it can't do that for _me_. Maybe a training problem, but then I did call on the group to organise training and was blown off multiple times.
[23:49] <cprofitt> if course writer A wants to use Microsoft Office - so be it
[23:49] <doctormo> Not until last week did we have anyone helping learning moodle.
[23:49] <BiosElement> dinda, And part of developing materials is keeping them updated...That's a major part.
[23:49] <cprofitt> if course write B wants to use notepad I am fine with that too
[23:49] <dinda> BiosElement: I'm saying if we get to the point that we have sooo many courses to update, keep track of - we've had succeeded
[23:49] <cprofitt> doctormo, I was here in July and June willing to teach
[23:49] <bodhi_zazen> doctormo: I am not sure I agree with that
[23:49] <cprofitt> unfortunately August and September are busy for me
[23:49] <bodhi_zazen> many people have offered to help learn moodls
[23:49] <bodhi_zazen> *moodle
[23:50] <dinda> BiosElement: the course owner/author should be responsible for updating, if a course become outdated, it can easily be removed or deprecated
[23:50] <cprofitt> +1 dinda
[23:50] <doctormo> cprofitt: Willing to teach isn't the same as organising it. I never saw any events to attend to learn it, and what I've attended so far hasn't improved my abilitity to use it.
[23:50] <cprofitt> +1 again for dinda
[23:50] <cprofitt> doctormo, irc is not the right format for teaching it
[23:50] <cprofitt> IMHO
[23:50] <doctormo> I agree
[23:50] <bodhi_zazen> As a note to the group, can we please reduce the hostility in this project ?
[23:51] <cprofitt> It would involve us using some voice communication method and you asking 'how do I'
[23:51] <bodhi_zazen> I do not like the hostility, we need to compromise to find solutions
[23:51] <cprofitt> or using a shared screen
[23:51] <dinda> dimdim works
[23:51] <doctormo> cprofitt: sounds like a plan
[23:51] <cprofitt> dimdim?
[23:51] <cprofitt> doctormo, we can set a date/time after the meeting
[23:52] <dinda> open source webex type plarform
[23:52] <dinda> online meetings/screensharing
[23:52] <cprofitt> http://www.linux-for-education.org/course/view.php?id=28
[23:52] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.linux-for-education.org/course/view.php?id=28
[23:52] <cprofitt> that course looks fairly good
[23:52] <dinda> they even have a moodle plug-in
[23:52] <cprofitt> dinda, nice... I will have to learn about that...
[23:53] <cprofitt> are we at a close... that we need to investigate getting a solid Moodle training program in place for the core team?
[23:55] <cprofitt> [VOTE] Work on developing a 'how to use Moodle' course
[23:55] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Work on developing a 'how to use Moodle' course.
[23:55] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[23:55] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[23:55] <cprofitt> +1
[23:55] <MootBot> +1 received from cprofitt. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[23:55] <bodhi_zazen> +1
[23:55] <MootBot> +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[23:55] <doctormo> +1
[23:55] <MootBot> +1 received from doctormo. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
[23:55] <dinda> How will these be different from the other existing How to develop Moodle courses out there?
[23:55]  * cprofitt any more votes?
[23:56] <bodhi_zazen> dinda: I am in favor of using existing resources if at all possible
[23:56] <cprofitt> dinda, I am not sure it will be... but we need to explore those and either use them or improve them
[23:56] <cprofitt> I think the core difference is that we are 'teaching' non-educators how to use this product
[23:56] <cprofitt> and that might be a different target audience than the other courses have
[23:56] <bodhi_zazen> and I think there is a difference between tools to develop moodle courses and tools to develop moodle + PDF + who knows what =)
[23:56] <doctormo> And we'd probably be able to develop something that doesn't have NC terms.
[23:56]  * cprofitt any more votes
[23:57] <st33med> +1
[23:57] <MootBot> +1 received from st33med. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
[23:57]  * cprofitt last call for votes
[23:57] <dinda> +0
[23:57] <MootBot> Abstention received from dinda. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
[23:57] <cprofitt> [ENDVOTE]
[23:57] <MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 4
[23:58] <cprofitt> [AGREED] The group needs to develop a how to use Moodle course using all available resources
[23:58] <MootBot> AGREED received:  The group needs to develop a how to use Moodle course using all available resources
[23:58] <cprofitt> as there are no other topics and we have reached the end of our time
[23:58] <cprofitt> I motion to close the meeting
[23:58]  * cprofitt seconds?
[23:58] <doctormo> seconded
[23:58] <bodhi_zazen> +1
[23:58] <cprofitt> #endmeeting
[23:58] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:58.
[23:59] <cprofitt> thank you for attending everyone...
[23:59] <cprofitt> let us all keep focused on working as a team and overcoming the barriers
[23:59] <cprofitt> its a struggle but one well worth the effort