/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/10/08/#edubuntu.txt

=== Mujahideen is now known as Vantrax
=== Vantrax is now known as Hashishin
=== Hashishin is now known as Nizari
=== Nizari is now known as vantrax
=== heHATEme is now known as vorian
=== ogra_ is now known as ogra
=== ogra is now known as Guest77653
=== Guest77653 is now known as ogra
LaserJockhmm, looks like I broke the text-based installer15:46
nubae|workgreets LaserJock16:18
LaserJockhi nubae|work16:35
* nubae|work battles telepathy and dbus...16:42
nubae|workgood thing is I now understand dbus pretty thoroughly :-) I wasn't really sure what it was till now...16:43
LaserJockgood16:43
LaserJockI don't that I do exactly16:43
LaserJockbut I'm glad somebody does16:43
LaserJock:-)16:43
nubae|workheh... well to use telepathy u need to know dbus cause all the methods and signals go through there16:43
LaserJockyes, I'm becoming aware of that unfortunately16:44
nubae|workI also learnt how collaboration really works... basically its dbus on one machine connected to dbus on another16:44
LaserJockUbuntu's fancy IM integration stuff was causing me problems because of telepathy16:44
nubae|workif u think about the possibilities this creates, its awsome16:44
nubae|workyeah telepathy is big... but reading the developer's manual helps16:45
LaserJockthe only issue I seem to have is when I don't really need all that16:45
LaserJockjust a personal thing16:45
nubae|workwhat do u mean?16:45
LaserJockI mean I don't need/want collaboration personally16:46
LaserJockand it's becoming more integrated into the OS16:46
LaserJockso that it's becoming harder for me to avoid it16:46
nubae|workwell, u don't have to use it :-) but it sure brings new possibilities to apps16:46
LaserJockmy problem is I'm starting to have to use it16:46
nubae|workah... right... well yeah can't really avoid telepathy anymore, unless u wanna not use communication at all16:47
LaserJockI wanted to use pidgin16:47
LaserJockbut Ubuntu kept opening Empathy on incoming messages16:47
LaserJockwhether I had an empathy window open or not16:47
nubae|workhmm, really, thats strange...16:47
LaserJockbecause of the dbus calls, etc.16:47
nubae|workwell, empathy isnt really linked to the calls... it should be using telepathy straight...16:48
LaserJockthe Ubuntu indicator app picks up the incoming message16:48
nubae|workthough it wasnt always like that, I guess u're talking about the past16:48
LaserJockand starts up mission control16:48
nubae|workwhen empathy had its own libs16:48
LaserJockno, I'm talking about how this is being integrated into the OS16:48
nubae|workyeah and mission control chooses the connection manager, and then marshall stuff depending on the client in use... but empathy shouldnt kidnap your pidgin messages16:49
nubae|workat least doesnt happen for me16:49
LaserJockI had assumed that if I closed empathy it would stop "looking" for incoming messages16:49
nubae|workdefinetly16:49
LaserJockbut that's not the case now in Ubuntu16:49
nubae|workhmmm, in Karmic?16:49
LaserJockyeah16:50
nubae|workI havent looked at karmic yet... in terms of telepathy, but that would be a major regression16:50
LaserJockit's a "feature" :-)16:50
LaserJockso they patched it so that it now looks to pidgin first if it's open16:50
LaserJockwhich seems like kind of a hacky workaround to me but I don't know16:51
LaserJockand gwibber is worse16:51
LaserJockbecause there's no UI to close the client16:51
nubae|workwell, the problem is that pidgin doesnt use telepathy16:51
LaserJockwell, it shouldn't *have* to16:51
nubae|workand telepathy is now hard coded into the WM like you say16:51
LaserJockI think this telepathy stuff is interesting for sure16:51
nubae|workwell, the fact that everyone has agreed on a standard communications platform, to me says it should :-)16:52
LaserJockI just hope that it doesn't get too hard coded for those of us who don't necessarily need it16:52
LaserJockbut that stander here is XMPP, not telepathy16:52
nubae|workwell, unless u intend to not use video/audio conferencing, instant messaging, collaboration, SIP, etc etc16:52
LaserJockall I want is a Jabber client16:53
LaserJockno video/audio, collaboration, SIP, etc.16:53
LaserJockJabber and maybe IRC if they can do it well16:53
nubae|workwell, telepathy uses XMPP and it is the chosen communications platform for Gnome...16:53
nubae|workits just standardisation16:53
nubae|workfor devs, it makes sense16:53
nubae|workthe end user can find it annoying I guess16:54
LaserJockwell, I just want my IM client to work16:54
LaserJockand not be autospawning16:54
nubae|workyeah thats pretty bad... I'm sure thats not intended16:54
nubae|worktelepathy should work very independently of empathy16:54
LaserJockit's disconcerting to me that apps are automatically opening up when I've closed them16:55
LaserJockno, it is intended unfortunatley16:55
LaserJockright, I'm not blaming telepathy per se16:55
nubae|workwell, at least on Jaunty, that behaviour is not there... I can control telepathy independently of empathy16:55
LaserJockyes16:55
LaserJockit's a karmic feature16:56
nubae|workfeature... that doesnt sound right16:56
LaserJockthe issue isn't really telepathy16:56
nubae|workwho came up with that idea, I wonder16:56
LaserJockit's that they're catching incoming messages whether empathy is open or not and starting up the client16:56
nubae|workright, but that would mean that empathy is hardcoded to always be on somehow, or, that the dbus bindings launch empathy, which would be very strange16:57
LaserJockso I end up having a hard time figuring out which apps are open and which are not16:58
LaserJockyeah, the indicator-session applet uses dbus to launch empathy16:58
nubae|workI'm gonna install Karmic and take a look16:58
nubae|workah ok, so this indicator-session applet is new for karmic?16:58
LaserJocksorta16:58
nubae|workor its got the new dbus launching empathy functionality...16:58
LaserJockI think it might be around in Jaunty but not as powerful16:58
nubae|workgotcha...16:59
LaserJockso they told me that the only way (before the fix they just put in) to stop this behavior16:59
LaserJockwas to disable all the accounts in empathy16:59
LaserJockthen it would just go to pidgin16:59
nubae|workgosh16:59
LaserJockI'm pretty confused by the whole thing17:00
LaserJockand it seems like the only way to get things "normal" is to use empathy17:00
LaserJockwhich seems kind of "not nice" to me17:00
LaserJockI love pidgin and would like to continue using it for the foreseeable future17:00
nubae|workwell, the problem is there is a lot it can't do due to not using telepathy17:02
nubae|worklike sharing the desktop, file transfers to gabble, msn, salut accounts17:02
nubae|workvideo/audio conferencing to more than 2 people at the same time17:02
nubae|workand from a development point of view, it makes no sense to continue to support pidgin, as nice as it is17:03
LaserJockright17:03
alkisgIt also runs on windows :) Makes collaboration easier for people using multiple platforms :)17:03
LaserJockwell, somebody would have to write a nice IM client that uses telepathy for me to be interested17:03
nubae|workwell, telepathy doesn't work on windows17:03
* alkisg will keep using pidgin for some time...17:03
nubae|workthough there are efforts to port it17:03
LaserJockthe other stuff just doesn't excite me17:03
nubae|workthere are a LOT of telepathy projects being worked on17:04
nubae|workwho knows, maybe mine will catch your fancy... lol17:04
LaserJockso I certainly don't mind telepathy being around, and am generally a fan17:04
LaserJockbut I'd like to be able to use my choice of IM client without "punishment"17:04
nubae|workwell, I agree that it shouldnt force u to use one client, and I dont believe that is its intention17:04
LaserJockI think it is ;-)17:05
LaserJockthough not in a mean way17:05
nubae|workI know of at least 4-5 chat clients using telepathy17:05
LaserJockthe guys doing this don't like pidgin17:05
nubae|workand they can run concurrently without issues17:05
alkisgMaybe pidgin will get a (secondary) telepathy backend in the future..17:05
LaserJockand pretty much think it should die17:05
nubae|workcome on... no conspiracy theories ;-)17:05
LaserJockwell, it's fairly common knowledge17:05
LaserJockI don't blame them17:05
LaserJockbut still, the bias is there17:06
nubae|workthat would make the most sense... using telepathy in pidgin17:06
LaserJockwhen I mention a bug they tell me I should just use empathy and forget pidgin17:06
nubae|workwell, its a telepathy thing... empathy is just a small example of how to use telepathy17:06
nubae|workthe major work has gone into the comms platform17:06
nubae|workheh...17:06
LaserJockright, but since telepathy doesn't give me any other advantages17:06
LaserJockI'm having to put up with a crappy IM client because of a framework that doesn't gain me anything17:07
LaserJockwhich seems not so fun to me17:07
alkisgI see telepathy in the same way that I see the gstreamer library... Sure, it's a good backend, but totem doesn't yet do everything vlc or mplayer do. Same thing with empathy, it doesn't yet do what pidgin does...17:07
nubae|workI'd be pretty surprised if there is nothing telepathy can do for u17:07
LaserJocknubae|work: I can't think of anything17:07
nubae|workdo u use vino and vinagre?17:07
LaserJockno17:07
nubae|workthat uses telepathy17:07
LaserJockI apt-get remove those17:07
nubae|workjokosher?17:07
LaserJockI don't want VNC on my machine17:07
nubae|workabiword?17:08
LaserJocknope17:08
nubae|workinkscape?17:08
LaserJocknope17:08
LaserJocksometimes17:08
nubae|workah...17:08
nubae|workthere was bound to be one :p17:08
LaserJockso how does telepathy help me with inkscape?17:08
nubae|worku can share drawings with other users17:08
LaserJockI've never wanted to do that17:09
nubae|workok, but the ability is there... and its quite useful in school situations...17:09
LaserJockI mean, I understand why many people would17:09
nubae|workanyway, surely u can dream up something it would be useful to u for17:09
LaserJockI just personally don't need/want it17:09
LaserJockso I'm not gaining anything from it17:09
nubae|workhow about sharing a chem app somehow...17:10
LaserJockwhich makes it harder for me to justify the nasty IM client17:10
nubae|workwell, that will change soon enough17:10
LaserJockI just don't feel the need to share things17:10
LaserJockmaybe I'm anti-social, I don't know17:10
LaserJockI've just not had a need for it17:10
nubae|workdo u use gtalk?17:10
LaserJockJabber17:11
LaserJocknot gtalk itself though17:11
nubae|workright but more and more telepathy is taking care of gtalk directly17:11
LaserJockit's another not-so-useful IM client17:11
nubae|workhmm, there I disagree17:11
nubae|workI use it a lot, just cause of the gmail integration17:11
LaserJockbut I don't want it integrated17:11
nubae|workbut if u dont use gmaiil, ok, I can see it not being that great17:12
LaserJockI use gmail17:12
LaserJockexclusively17:12
LaserJockbut that's email, not IM17:12
nubae|workhmm, they are so similar... :p17:12
LaserJockI don't want things integrated into my email, it's just useless and distracting17:12
LaserJockno, they are worlds different17:12
LaserJockI talk to almost completely different people between them17:12
LaserJockI use email for mass communication17:12
nubae|worki bet u there will come a day where email becomes obsolete and there is just instant messaging17:13
LaserJockIM for personally conversations17:13
LaserJockI suppose17:13
LaserJockI'm not a big fan of email17:13
LaserJockI wouldn't mind having something better17:13
nubae|workits a highly insecure old bothersome protocol17:13
LaserJockbut I'm not sure how people can make it better17:13
nubae|workwell, jabber takes care of that in a much better way, imho17:13
LaserJockexcept it's not great at mass communication17:14
nubae|workanyhow... I must go... home sweet home...17:14
LaserJockand it's real time, which sucks17:14
nubae|workhmm, why not...17:14
nubae|workdoesnt have to be real time17:14
nubae|worku can leave messages on the server17:14
nubae|workand it can multicast just fine17:14
LaserJocksure17:14
LaserJockbut then it's just email17:14
LaserJockwith a different transmission protocol17:15
nubae|workwell no, its a secure protocol17:15
LaserJockinstead of SMTP you're using XMPP or something17:15
nubae|workits better controlled17:15
nubae|workright17:15
LaserJocksure17:15
LaserJockbut that's not changing much17:15
nubae|workxmpp is far superior to xmtp17:15
LaserJockthe end user won't notice a difference17:15
nubae|workno the end user wont17:15
nubae|workwhich is a good thing17:15
LaserJockright17:15
nubae|workanyway, have to go... i'll be on later from home...17:16
nubae|worklaters...17:16
LaserJockcya17:16
Balsaqregistered my nick, reveived email to finish it, followed the instructions, now get message-must log in 1st to register nick?20:33
alkisgBalsaq: better ask in #ubuntu-irc20:35
=== mhall119|work is now known as mhall119|school

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