[15:46] <LaserJock> hmm, looks like I broke the text-based installer
[16:18] <nubae|work> greets LaserJock
[16:35] <LaserJock> hi nubae|work
[16:42]  * nubae|work battles telepathy and dbus...
[16:43] <nubae|work> good thing is I now understand dbus pretty thoroughly :-) I wasn't really sure what it was till now...
[16:43] <LaserJock> good
[16:43] <LaserJock> I don't that I do exactly
[16:43] <LaserJock> but I'm glad somebody does
[16:43] <LaserJock> :-)
[16:43] <nubae|work> heh... well to use telepathy u need to know dbus cause all the methods and signals go through there
[16:44] <LaserJock> yes, I'm becoming aware of that unfortunately
[16:44] <nubae|work> I also learnt how collaboration really works... basically its dbus on one machine connected to dbus on another
[16:44] <LaserJock> Ubuntu's fancy IM integration stuff was causing me problems because of telepathy
[16:44] <nubae|work> if u think about the possibilities this creates, its awsome
[16:45] <nubae|work> yeah telepathy is big... but reading the developer's manual helps
[16:45] <LaserJock> the only issue I seem to have is when I don't really need all that
[16:45] <LaserJock> just a personal thing
[16:45] <nubae|work> what do u mean?
[16:46] <LaserJock> I mean I don't need/want collaboration personally
[16:46] <LaserJock> and it's becoming more integrated into the OS
[16:46] <LaserJock> so that it's becoming harder for me to avoid it
[16:46] <nubae|work> well, u don't have to use it :-) but it sure brings new possibilities to apps
[16:46] <LaserJock> my problem is I'm starting to have to use it
[16:47] <nubae|work> ah... right... well yeah can't really avoid telepathy anymore, unless u wanna not use communication at all
[16:47] <LaserJock> I wanted to use pidgin
[16:47] <LaserJock> but Ubuntu kept opening Empathy on incoming messages
[16:47] <LaserJock> whether I had an empathy window open or not
[16:47] <nubae|work> hmm, really, thats strange...
[16:47] <LaserJock> because of the dbus calls, etc.
[16:48] <nubae|work> well, empathy isnt really linked to the calls... it should be using telepathy straight...
[16:48] <LaserJock> the Ubuntu indicator app picks up the incoming message
[16:48] <nubae|work> though it wasnt always like that, I guess u're talking about the past
[16:48] <LaserJock> and starts up mission control
[16:48] <nubae|work> when empathy had its own libs
[16:48] <LaserJock> no, I'm talking about how this is being integrated into the OS
[16:49] <nubae|work> yeah and mission control chooses the connection manager, and then marshall stuff depending on the client in use... but empathy shouldnt kidnap your pidgin messages
[16:49] <nubae|work> at least doesnt happen for me
[16:49] <LaserJock> I had assumed that if I closed empathy it would stop "looking" for incoming messages
[16:49] <nubae|work> definetly
[16:49] <LaserJock> but that's not the case now in Ubuntu
[16:49] <nubae|work> hmmm, in Karmic?
[16:50] <LaserJock> yeah
[16:50] <nubae|work> I havent looked at karmic yet... in terms of telepathy, but that would be a major regression
[16:50] <LaserJock> it's a "feature" :-)
[16:50] <LaserJock> so they patched it so that it now looks to pidgin first if it's open
[16:51] <LaserJock> which seems like kind of a hacky workaround to me but I don't know
[16:51] <LaserJock> and gwibber is worse
[16:51] <LaserJock> because there's no UI to close the client
[16:51] <nubae|work> well, the problem is that pidgin doesnt use telepathy
[16:51] <LaserJock> well, it shouldn't *have* to
[16:51] <nubae|work> and telepathy is now hard coded into the WM like you say
[16:51] <LaserJock> I think this telepathy stuff is interesting for sure
[16:52] <nubae|work> well, the fact that everyone has agreed on a standard communications platform, to me says it should :-)
[16:52] <LaserJock> I just hope that it doesn't get too hard coded for those of us who don't necessarily need it
[16:52] <LaserJock> but that stander here is XMPP, not telepathy
[16:52] <nubae|work> well, unless u intend to not use video/audio conferencing, instant messaging, collaboration, SIP, etc etc
[16:53] <LaserJock> all I want is a Jabber client
[16:53] <LaserJock> no video/audio, collaboration, SIP, etc.
[16:53] <LaserJock> Jabber and maybe IRC if they can do it well
[16:53] <nubae|work> well, telepathy uses XMPP and it is the chosen communications platform for Gnome...
[16:53] <nubae|work> its just standardisation
[16:53] <nubae|work> for devs, it makes sense
[16:54] <nubae|work> the end user can find it annoying I guess
[16:54] <LaserJock> well, I just want my IM client to work
[16:54] <LaserJock> and not be autospawning
[16:54] <nubae|work> yeah thats pretty bad... I'm sure thats not intended
[16:54] <nubae|work> telepathy should work very independently of empathy
[16:55] <LaserJock> it's disconcerting to me that apps are automatically opening up when I've closed them
[16:55] <LaserJock> no, it is intended unfortunatley
[16:55] <LaserJock> right, I'm not blaming telepathy per se
[16:55] <nubae|work> well, at least on Jaunty, that behaviour is not there... I can control telepathy independently of empathy
[16:55] <LaserJock> yes
[16:56] <LaserJock> it's a karmic feature
[16:56] <nubae|work> feature... that doesnt sound right
[16:56] <LaserJock> the issue isn't really telepathy
[16:56] <nubae|work> who came up with that idea, I wonder
[16:56] <LaserJock> it's that they're catching incoming messages whether empathy is open or not and starting up the client
[16:57] <nubae|work> right, but that would mean that empathy is hardcoded to always be on somehow, or, that the dbus bindings launch empathy, which would be very strange
[16:58] <LaserJock> so I end up having a hard time figuring out which apps are open and which are not
[16:58] <LaserJock> yeah, the indicator-session applet uses dbus to launch empathy
[16:58] <nubae|work> I'm gonna install Karmic and take a look
[16:58] <nubae|work> ah ok, so this indicator-session applet is new for karmic?
[16:58] <LaserJock> sorta
[16:58] <nubae|work> or its got the new dbus launching empathy functionality...
[16:58] <LaserJock> I think it might be around in Jaunty but not as powerful
[16:59] <nubae|work> gotcha...
[16:59] <LaserJock> so they told me that the only way (before the fix they just put in) to stop this behavior
[16:59] <LaserJock> was to disable all the accounts in empathy
[16:59] <LaserJock> then it would just go to pidgin
[16:59] <nubae|work> gosh
[17:00] <LaserJock> I'm pretty confused by the whole thing
[17:00] <LaserJock> and it seems like the only way to get things "normal" is to use empathy
[17:00] <LaserJock> which seems kind of "not nice" to me
[17:00] <LaserJock> I love pidgin and would like to continue using it for the foreseeable future
[17:02] <nubae|work> well, the problem is there is a lot it can't do due to not using telepathy
[17:02] <nubae|work> like sharing the desktop, file transfers to gabble, msn, salut accounts
[17:02] <nubae|work> video/audio conferencing to more than 2 people at the same time
[17:03] <nubae|work> and from a development point of view, it makes no sense to continue to support pidgin, as nice as it is
[17:03] <LaserJock> right
[17:03] <alkisg> It also runs on windows :) Makes collaboration easier for people using multiple platforms :)
[17:03] <LaserJock> well, somebody would have to write a nice IM client that uses telepathy for me to be interested
[17:03] <nubae|work> well, telepathy doesn't work on windows
[17:03]  * alkisg will keep using pidgin for some time...
[17:03] <nubae|work> though there are efforts to port it
[17:03] <LaserJock> the other stuff just doesn't excite me
[17:04] <nubae|work> there are a LOT of telepathy projects being worked on
[17:04] <nubae|work> who knows, maybe mine will catch your fancy... lol
[17:04] <LaserJock> so I certainly don't mind telepathy being around, and am generally a fan
[17:04] <LaserJock> but I'd like to be able to use my choice of IM client without "punishment"
[17:04] <nubae|work> well, I agree that it shouldnt force u to use one client, and I dont believe that is its intention
[17:05] <LaserJock> I think it is ;-)
[17:05] <LaserJock> though not in a mean way
[17:05] <nubae|work> I know of at least 4-5 chat clients using telepathy
[17:05] <LaserJock> the guys doing this don't like pidgin
[17:05] <nubae|work> and they can run concurrently without issues
[17:05] <alkisg> Maybe pidgin will get a (secondary) telepathy backend in the future..
[17:05] <LaserJock> and pretty much think it should die
[17:05] <nubae|work> come on... no conspiracy theories ;-)
[17:05] <LaserJock> well, it's fairly common knowledge
[17:05] <LaserJock> I don't blame them
[17:06] <LaserJock> but still, the bias is there
[17:06] <nubae|work> that would make the most sense... using telepathy in pidgin
[17:06] <LaserJock> when I mention a bug they tell me I should just use empathy and forget pidgin
[17:06] <nubae|work> well, its a telepathy thing... empathy is just a small example of how to use telepathy
[17:06] <nubae|work> the major work has gone into the comms platform
[17:06] <nubae|work> heh...
[17:06] <LaserJock> right, but since telepathy doesn't give me any other advantages
[17:07] <LaserJock> I'm having to put up with a crappy IM client because of a framework that doesn't gain me anything
[17:07] <LaserJock> which seems not so fun to me
[17:07] <alkisg> I see telepathy in the same way that I see the gstreamer library... Sure, it's a good backend, but totem doesn't yet do everything vlc or mplayer do. Same thing with empathy, it doesn't yet do what pidgin does...
[17:07] <nubae|work> I'd be pretty surprised if there is nothing telepathy can do for u
[17:07] <LaserJock> nubae|work: I can't think of anything
[17:07] <nubae|work> do u use vino and vinagre?
[17:07] <LaserJock> no
[17:07] <nubae|work> that uses telepathy
[17:07] <LaserJock> I apt-get remove those
[17:07] <nubae|work> jokosher?
[17:07] <LaserJock> I don't want VNC on my machine
[17:08] <nubae|work> abiword?
[17:08] <LaserJock> nope
[17:08] <nubae|work> inkscape?
[17:08] <LaserJock> nope
[17:08] <LaserJock> sometimes
[17:08] <nubae|work> ah...
[17:08] <nubae|work> there was bound to be one :p
[17:08] <LaserJock> so how does telepathy help me with inkscape?
[17:08] <nubae|work> u can share drawings with other users
[17:09] <LaserJock> I've never wanted to do that
[17:09] <nubae|work> ok, but the ability is there... and its quite useful in school situations...
[17:09] <LaserJock> I mean, I understand why many people would
[17:09] <nubae|work> anyway, surely u can dream up something it would be useful to u for
[17:09] <LaserJock> I just personally don't need/want it
[17:09] <LaserJock> so I'm not gaining anything from it
[17:10] <nubae|work> how about sharing a chem app somehow...
[17:10] <LaserJock> which makes it harder for me to justify the nasty IM client
[17:10] <nubae|work> well, that will change soon enough
[17:10] <LaserJock> I just don't feel the need to share things
[17:10] <LaserJock> maybe I'm anti-social, I don't know
[17:10] <LaserJock> I've just not had a need for it
[17:10] <nubae|work> do u use gtalk?
[17:11] <LaserJock> Jabber
[17:11] <LaserJock> not gtalk itself though
[17:11] <nubae|work> right but more and more telepathy is taking care of gtalk directly
[17:11] <LaserJock> it's another not-so-useful IM client
[17:11] <nubae|work> hmm, there I disagree
[17:11] <nubae|work> I use it a lot, just cause of the gmail integration
[17:11] <LaserJock> but I don't want it integrated
[17:12] <nubae|work> but if u dont use gmaiil, ok, I can see it not being that great
[17:12] <LaserJock> I use gmail
[17:12] <LaserJock> exclusively
[17:12] <LaserJock> but that's email, not IM
[17:12] <nubae|work> hmm, they are so similar... :p
[17:12] <LaserJock> I don't want things integrated into my email, it's just useless and distracting
[17:12] <LaserJock> no, they are worlds different
[17:12] <LaserJock> I talk to almost completely different people between them
[17:12] <LaserJock> I use email for mass communication
[17:13] <nubae|work> i bet u there will come a day where email becomes obsolete and there is just instant messaging
[17:13] <LaserJock> IM for personally conversations
[17:13] <LaserJock> I suppose
[17:13] <LaserJock> I'm not a big fan of email
[17:13] <LaserJock> I wouldn't mind having something better
[17:13] <nubae|work> its a highly insecure old bothersome protocol
[17:13] <LaserJock> but I'm not sure how people can make it better
[17:13] <nubae|work> well, jabber takes care of that in a much better way, imho
[17:14] <LaserJock> except it's not great at mass communication
[17:14] <nubae|work> anyhow... I must go... home sweet home...
[17:14] <LaserJock> and it's real time, which sucks
[17:14] <nubae|work> hmm, why not...
[17:14] <nubae|work> doesnt have to be real time
[17:14] <nubae|work> u can leave messages on the server
[17:14] <nubae|work> and it can multicast just fine
[17:14] <LaserJock> sure
[17:14] <LaserJock> but then it's just email
[17:15] <LaserJock> with a different transmission protocol
[17:15] <nubae|work> well no, its a secure protocol
[17:15] <LaserJock> instead of SMTP you're using XMPP or something
[17:15] <nubae|work> its better controlled
[17:15] <nubae|work> right
[17:15] <LaserJock> sure
[17:15] <LaserJock> but that's not changing much
[17:15] <nubae|work> xmpp is far superior to xmtp
[17:15] <LaserJock> the end user won't notice a difference
[17:15] <nubae|work> no the end user wont
[17:15] <nubae|work> which is a good thing
[17:15] <LaserJock> right
[17:16] <nubae|work> anyway, have to go... i'll be on later from home...
[17:16] <nubae|work> laters...
[17:16] <LaserJock> cya
[20:33] <Balsaq> registered my nick, reveived email to finish it, followed the instructions, now get message-must log in 1st to register nick?
[20:35] <alkisg> Balsaq: better ask in #ubuntu-irc