[00:16] <cprofitt> anyone in?
[00:23] <cprofitt> pleia2, if you get in let me know
[00:25] <cprofitt> doctormo, you on?
[00:26] <doctormo> cprofitt: I am
[00:26] <cprofitt> can we discuss the "Using Ubuntu page:
[00:26] <cprofitt> I am trying to move over some of the old EDU focus group items...
[00:27] <cprofitt> and the bullet items appear a bit... well... not organized
[00:28] <cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/UbuntuDesktopTopics
[00:28] <cprofitt> Using vs. Maintain....
[00:28] <cprofitt> are they the 'correct' headings?
[00:29] <cprofitt> doctormo, you still here?
[00:30] <doctormo> YEs
[00:30] <doctormo> sorry
[00:30] <doctormo> Still stunned from getting a hug from Miguel
[00:31] <doctormo> OK so,
[00:31] <doctormo> cprofitt: The Using Ubuntu page shouldn't have any maintaining ubuntu topics, it's strickly using
[00:31] <cprofitt> ah...
[00:31] <cprofitt> right... but it appears to not be about using vs. maintaining
[00:32] <cprofitt> we also lumped systems administration in there...
[00:32] <doctormo> cprofitt: Each topic has an organiser, I'm the organiser for the systems admin topic and I will do gardening for other topics until they become the responsbility of who ever steps up to fill them.
[00:32] <doctormo> Systems administration is in the maining ubuntu section
[00:32] <doctormo> If it's being mentioned in the Using Ubuntu, then it's in the wrong place.
[00:32] <cprofitt> well... I am looking at the How to Maintain -- it has systems administration in it
[00:32] <cprofitt> and I am looking at Using...
[00:33] <cprofitt> I noticed that in using there is command line basics
[00:33] <cprofitt> and in Sys Admin there is command line basics
[00:34] <doctormo> cprofitt: There shouldn't really be a cli topic in using, pleia2 can you confirm your gardening of the using topics?
[00:35] <cprofitt> doctormo, why would using not have command line topics?
[00:35] <cprofitt> it appears to be a cross-over topic
[00:35] <cprofitt> IMHO
[00:35] <doctormo> cprofitt: Because the command line isn't desktop use and for now I'd much prefer to keep the learning objectivies clearer for desktop users than add complexity simply because it's more technically correct.
[00:36] <cprofitt> Then perhaps our 'titles' need to be
[00:36] <cprofitt> well... 'rethought'
[00:36] <doctormo> Very possible
[00:36] <cprofitt> desktop and sysadmin
[00:36] <cprofitt> instead of 'using' and 'maintaining'
[00:37] <doctormo> cprofitt: I think I have a better idea
[00:37] <cprofitt> I also think that there are, as in college courses, a need for common basics
[00:37] <cprofitt> a desktop user needs some of the same base a systems administrator does
[00:37] <cprofitt> perhaps 'basic Ubuntu'
[00:37] <cprofitt> 'desktop Ubuntu'
[00:37] <doctormo> cprofitt: The CLI lesson in the sys admin topics is a base requirement, not an actual class. If you look it's seperated off.
[00:37] <cprofitt> 'server Ubuntu'
[00:38] <cprofitt> and 'Advanced Ubuntu for the Systems Administrator'
[00:38] <cprofitt> yes... as a base topic...
[00:38] <cprofitt> and you are listed as completing the course...
[00:38] <doctormo> cprofitt: So if Using has more than a single course, but has an advanced users section, then the base line requirements for sys admin course can be put in there.
[00:38] <cprofitt> but on the 'Using' you are not listed
[00:39] <cprofitt> so I just edited the page to 'do it', but you appear to have it done
[00:39] <cprofitt> you think that each 'button' area is one course?
[00:39] <doctormo> Sorry I don't understand what I have done.
[00:39] <doctormo> No each button area is a section (moodle's course topics I think)
[00:40] <doctormo> And a section can contain more than one course, but for now it's just an inital course.
[00:40] <doctormo> Besides, I'm thinking courses should be a little more flexible and be able to blend thing together is required for a teacher.
[00:40] <doctormo> But that's something for the future
[00:41] <hal14450> doctormo, did you ever get a chance to test out the sip account?
[00:41] <cprofitt> we used it the other night hal14450
[00:42] <doctormo> it was really very good
[00:42] <doctormo> thanks hal14450
[00:42] <hal14450> cool
[00:42] <hal14450> np yw
[00:42] <cprofitt> doctormo, you have the command line basics done though right?
[00:42] <doctormo> cprofitt: yes
[00:42] <hal14450> at least sip to sip doesn't cost me anything lol
[00:43] <doctormo> cprofitt: It's in alpha, your welcome to take it over to using/advanced and develop it further
[00:43] <cprofitt> doctormo, that is ok... looking to take one some stuff
[00:43] <cprofitt> ... but to be clear each of those pages details one course?
[00:44] <doctormo> cprofitt: No, each of those pages documents possible topics to be developed into courses and the structure that it might be useful to use.
[00:44] <doctormo> cprofitt: It's more like a scratch pad, and each heading should be a course I think
[00:45] <doctormo> cprofitt: Which section/course/class will you be wanting to take on?
[00:45] <cprofitt> by heading you mean the 'primary bullet'
[00:45] <doctormo> cprofitt: No I mean wiki [00:45] <cprofitt> I am not following...
[00:45] <cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/UbuntuDesktopTopics
[00:45] <cprofitt> are there any 'courses' on this page or just an outline of possible topics?
[00:46] <doctormo> cprofitt: At the moment there is only an outline of possible topics. Below that but just above Further Material is each course as a header.
[00:47] <cprofitt> ok... so neither page actually has a course outline yet...
[00:47] <cprofitt> just suggested topics
[00:47] <doctormo> I'm editing the sysadmin topics page so it makes sense
[00:47] <cprofitt> now I am following
[00:48] <cprofitt> doctormo, here is some 'course requests' I had from folks that I asked on the forums
[00:48] <cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Education/Instructors
[00:48] <cprofitt> this is old... before we started to talk about Learning
[00:48] <cprofitt> where do you see working those topics in?
[00:50] <cprofitt> doctormo, here was our list of resources -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Education/Resources
[00:51] <doctormo> cprofitt: Indervidual topics which could become indervidual lessons should go into the topics list. Ideas that become courses should have a section I guess.
[00:52] <doctormo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/SystemAdminTopics <- I've grouped together my course outline on this page now
[00:52] <cprofitt> I was curious as to which page you would think those fall under doctormo
[00:53] <cprofitt> doctormo, the courses you have all seem like one day courses?
[00:53] <doctormo> cprofitt: Beginner belongs in the command line lesson
[00:53] <doctormo> cprofitt: Intermediate is spread around a bit in the sysadmin course.
[00:54] <doctormo> Encyrption, Advanced ssh and compiling doesn't yes exist, but would be in maintaining.
[00:54] <cprofitt> doctormo, those are the resources....
[00:55] <cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Education/Instructors
[00:55] <doctormo> Ok sorry
[00:55] <cprofitt> those are the 'course' requests
[00:55] <cprofitt> sorry for posting too many pages at once
[00:55] <doctormo> How to file a bug is "Get Involved/Community" section
[00:55] <doctormo> Meta-packages is for the packaging section in maintain
[00:56] <doctormo> Transition from windows is a special case, it doesn't belong in any of the existing sections.
[00:56] <cprofitt> but valuable as a topic I think, yes?
[00:56] <doctormo> Squid is maintain, networking and hardware is probably special outside too, but maintain in case we don't get to them.
[00:57] <doctormo> cprofitt: Yes, but it becomes more of a how to, than a class. Although people may want to teach it. From my own experences people seem to be able to get Ubuntu without having it compared to windows.
[00:57] <doctormo> But sysadmins may need something like that
[00:57] <doctormo> Installing software is maintain
[00:58] <cprofitt> sounds good...
[00:58] <cprofitt> now... as a question....
[00:58] <doctormo> Encryption would probably be advanced user or maintain, depending on how indepth it went and the scope (one machine vs network)
[00:58] <cprofitt> if I have a desktop user who wants training -- will they take courses in both use and maintain?
[00:58] <doctormo> Sound is obviously desktop maintain, perhaps a desktop maintain course would be a goodidea
[00:59] <cprofitt> doctormo, did you go to college/university?
[00:59] <doctormo> So Maintain > Desktop Course, Use > Server Course
[00:59] <doctormo> cprofitt: No, I'm a non-educationed bastard.
[00:59] <cprofitt> ok...
[00:59] <doctormo> :-P
[01:00] <cprofitt> I will try to explain the 'thought process' then
[01:00] <cprofitt> ...
[01:00] <cprofitt> in college you have to take a 'base', a 'core' for your major and then 'electives'
[01:00] <cprofitt> I think part of our 'mission' should be to design a 'series' of courses
[01:01] <cprofitt> for the user (non-sys admin) who wants to be proficient at supporting themselves
[01:01] <cprofitt> that likely involves some use, some maintain courses
[01:01] <doctormo> cprofitt: An overall scheme, yes, it makes sense.
[01:01] <cprofitt> we would want to develop a 'sys admin' track...
[01:01] <cprofitt> etc....
[01:01] <cprofitt> ok... glad that worked...
[01:02] <doctormo> cprofitt: But as i said, I'd like to make it so that courses were dynamic, but our development sectioning doesn't have to match how courses will be organised in a published manner.
[01:02] <cprofitt> true... but
[01:02] <doctormo> Because if someone comes along and takes 3 from here, 2 from there and one over here and it really works, I want that experimentation.
[01:02] <cprofitt> we have to keep in mind that we may want to develop courses in certain 'chunks' so they can be used in both tracks if applicable
[01:03] <cprofitt> doctormo, I agree they can take things out of context...
[01:03] <cprofitt> or in different parts...
[01:03] <cprofitt> I am just saying we do not want to build command line topics in to a course for server admins...
[01:03] <cprofitt> and have nothing for the home desktop user
[01:03] <cprofitt> as both will use command line
[01:04] <cprofitt> that does not mean all 'home users' would chose to take a command line course though
[01:04] <cprofitt> does that make sense?
[01:06] <doctormo> cprofitt: Yes
[01:07] <cprofitt> k
[01:07] <doctormo> cprofitt: And I'd suggest that the command line class should be developed in 'use' and published in systems-admin base and user/advanced core.
[01:07] <cprofitt> so... do we need an overall curriculum manager as well as the 'area' organizers?
[01:07] <cprofitt> I agree...
[01:07] <doctormo> cprofitt: Sounds like your viying for the job :-)
[01:07] <cprofitt> not at all doctormo - just looking to see if we think we need that
[01:08] <cprofitt> I am sorry for having been absent for such an active period in this groups development, but work does that at times
[01:08] <doctormo> I'd like some input from other board and non board members, bodhizazen, Vantrax, pleia2?
[01:08] <cprofitt> I am trying to feel my way around what has happened while I was distracted
[01:08] <cprofitt> ... I would always bring it up at a meeting.
[01:08] <cprofitt> just looking for you opinion
[01:09] <doctormo> cprofitt: What happened, it got quiet, I did a lot of work teaching and writing, I pushed others to join in writing, we kind of made it up as we went along.
[01:09] <cprofitt> I understand...
[01:09] <cprofitt> I am feeling my way around that... and trying not to bend noses or step on toes
[01:10] <doctormo> cprofitt: That may not be so possible, you know what your doing because it's your job. I'm an amature playing at being lead doer.
[01:11] <cprofitt> My job is a sys admin -- not an educator
[01:11] <cprofitt> I may be closer to 'education' due to working at a K-12...
[01:11] <doctormo> It's likely that you'll come in, cause a little nose bending on my behalf, but hopefully we'll get along and sort out the parts were I've gone mad.
[01:11] <cprofitt> but I am by no means an educational expert
[01:11] <cprofitt> and thus far my attempts to get some K-12 experts to help with curriculum design has been a dismal failure
[01:12] <cprofitt> I am sure we will sort things out doctormo
[01:12] <cprofitt> I have strong opinions and respect that in others
[01:12] <cprofitt> I never, ever let my strong opinion close my eyes or cause me to get 'upset' for more than a few days
[01:12] <cprofitt> and I always come back to the table
[01:13] <doctormo> cprofitt: Aye, I will do the same, I can be quite obstinant at times too.
[01:13] <doctormo> But I always remind myself that I'm not an expert and must accept the experence of others.
[01:19] <cprofitt> none are experts...
[01:20] <cprofitt> doctormo, any idea when the next meeting is?
[01:27] <doctormo> cprofitt: It should be being organized by pleia2 and yourself.
[01:28] <cprofitt> ok... pleia2 has been doing it... I will work it out with her.
[01:28] <cprofitt> We really need to have a schedule up... that is current in our topic
[01:29] <doctormo> aye
[01:48] <Vantrax> one sec
[01:49] <cprofitt> hey Vantrax
[01:49] <cprofitt> Vantrax, doctormo -- http://learn.ufbt.net/course/view.php?id=8
[01:50] <cprofitt> 'shell' course for installing
[01:51] <Vantrax> I like cprofitt's view with core and electives, but i would call it differently
[01:51] <Vantrax> make it a recommended series
[01:52] <cprofitt> yes, that is more appropriate to what we are...
[01:52] <cprofitt> as we are not a college/university
[01:52] <Vantrax> and have a range of courses available outside those recommended ones that can also be taken
[01:56] <cprofitt> Vantrax, did you catch that link?
[02:32] <Vantrax> yes sorry
[02:34] <cprofitt> no problem... do those outlines seem to make sense?
[02:35] <cprofitt> http://learn.ufbt.net/course/view.php?id=9
[02:35] <cprofitt> as well.
[02:35] <Vantrax> yep
[02:35] <Vantrax> I think we should generate the outlines in the wiki tho
[02:35] <Vantrax> then put them into moodle
[02:37] <cprofitt> perhaps...
[02:38] <cprofitt> I wanted to show people what it would look like in Moodle...
[02:38] <cprofitt> what would the advantage be to putting outlines in to the wiki?
[02:41]  * cprofitt floats back in time with The Rolling Stones - Waiting On A Friend
[03:18] <bodhizazen> 'lol cprofitt
[03:18] <cprofitt> hey bodhizazen have time to talk now?
[04:20] <pleia2> cprofitt: we've all just sorta been hacking away at things
[04:20] <cprofitt> cool... did you check the links pleia2 ?
[04:20] <pleia2> in theory, yeah I'm in charge of UbuntuDesktopTopics - and I have one super introductory course #1 in the works, but in practice I was *swamped* with Ubuntu work in September
[04:20] <pleia2> I've seen some of them before
[04:21] <cprofitt> I just made both tonight
[04:21] <pleia2> cool, installations
[04:21] <cprofitt> http://learn.ufbt.net/course/view.php?id=9
[04:21] <cprofitt> http://learn.ufbt.net/course/view.php?id=8
[04:21] <pleia2> I thought you meant the earlier links, ubuntu beginner ones :)
[04:21] <pleia2> yeah, looking at moodle ones now
[04:22] <pleia2> cprofitt: hm, did you update the wiki for this structure?
[04:22] <pleia2> I think the workflow kinda has to be: wiki > bzr (or moodle, since you prefer) > publish
[04:22] <cprofitt> pleia2, a few changes... but minor
[04:22] <pleia2> we all want to start collaboration on the wiki
[04:22] <cprofitt> pleia2, still debating on bzr
[04:22] <cprofitt> some of the 'books' can be in bzr, but not the course as a whole
[04:23] <pleia2> right now your moodle courses look a lot different than what people, bodhi and I have hashed together on the wiki, and that'll quickly get confusing
[04:23] <pleia2> have you seen what doctormo has put in bzr?
[04:23] <BiosElement> Assuming bzr is as simple as *download course* *commit updates* course buttons, why would there be a problem with using it?
[04:23] <pleia2> he ~/bzr/ubuntu-learning-materials/systems-admin/01 - command line$ ls
[04:23] <pleia2> file1.txt  file3.txt        NOTES               practical-sheet.odt
[04:23] <pleia2> file2.txt  lesson-plan.odt  overview-sheet.odt  presentation
[04:24] <pleia2> ^^ so, he doesn't have quizzes and things, but all the rest is in bzr
[04:24] <cprofitt> BiosElement, there is no way to put some of the interactive parts of Moodle in there
[04:24] <pleia2> cprofitt: I am pretty sure we don't want to assume people are using moodle, these might be irc or net-less classrooms
[04:24] <pleia2> classes
[04:25] <pleia2> so if you put stuff in moodle, you can put quizzes and interactive moodle things in, but that won't be the assumption
[04:25] <BiosElement> cprofitt: Well there's also no way to put some of the interactive parts of moodle onto paper ;) So I think the interactive things should be in addition to written courses.
[04:25] <pleia2> BiosElement: +1
[04:26] <cprofitt> BiosElement, true... then again there is no need to have a written part of the course
[04:26] <pleia2> no need to have a written part?
[04:27] <BiosElement> cprofitt: And classes could be taught 'in-person' how?
[04:27] <pleia2> for the core curriculum, we need the basic written stuff that doctormo has been outlining these past couple months
[04:27] <cprofitt> BiosElement, the original goal of this project was not to provide in-person classes, but moderated on-line classes
[04:27] <pleia2> cprofitt: it's not?
[04:28] <pleia2> cprofitt: I think we disagree
[04:28] <cprofitt> while it is great we are using bzr and courses can be done that way... I am not sure we want to 'require' that of course authors
[04:28] <BiosElement> pleia2: +1
[04:28] <cprofitt> pleia2, I think it is a side goal
[04:28] <cprofitt> we want to provide an on-line course framework first...
[04:28] <pleia2> the goal of this project was to develop core curriculum for teaching in IRC (why I got involved), teaching at locos (another reason I got involved, and moodle (I am not hugely into this, this is where you come in)
[04:28] <cprofitt> one that can be migrated and used by others if possible
[04:29] <cprofitt> and potentially be used in person as well
[04:29] <pleia2> cprofitt: so far, all we've done is develop coursework for classrooms, that is what is being done first because doctormo is already doing it
[04:29] <cprofitt> but I always thought the core was to provide on-line
[04:29] <pleia2> cprofitt: for you maybe, but doc is doing in person, I'm doing in IRC
[04:29] <cprofitt> some instructor lead, some self-paced... some that would have IRC, some that would not
[04:29] <pleia2> the reason we have such a diverse board is because we all have different goals :)
[04:29] <pleia2> your goals of moodle stuff aren't more important than mine in IRC, or doc's real life stuff
[04:30] <cprofitt> I agree we all have different goals
[04:30] <cprofitt> woah...
[04:30] <pleia2> so the project develops core stuff
[04:30] <pleia2> then we diversify and put it into our mediums
[04:30] <cprofitt> I could care less if we used Moodle, Sakai or another CMS
[04:30] <pleia2> I use core stuff or IRC, doc uses core stuff for releasing pdfs he teaches in classrooms, you use core stuff to launch moodle classes
[04:30] <pleia2> s/or/for
[04:30] <cprofitt> I just do not want to 'force' or 'lock' down course authors in to a process that may inhibit growth
[04:31] <pleia2> well, currently we don't really have a process
[04:31] <cprofitt> I do not want to remove the ability of each author to use a process they are comfortable with
[04:31] <pleia2> of course
[04:31] <pleia2> starting with the wiki really has to be the beginning of things though
[04:31] <cprofitt> So... in my case I am not sure how to use asciidocs...
[04:31] <cprofitt> I will try...
[04:31] <BiosElement> Honestly I think the most productive way is to focus on the "course" at the simplest form possible and use the teaching formats such as moodle, irc and printed as extensions of the course rather then core.
[04:32] <cprofitt> but I know Moodle... and can design and build inside that
[04:32] <pleia2> cprofitt: if you want to write stuff in moodle and have me backport it to asciidoc, that's fine, but we really need to collaborate on the wiki too, since that's how the rest of us are working
[04:32] <cprofitt> BiosElement, I think having people write with the tool they are familiar with is likely to work
[04:32] <cprofitt> pleia2, I agree with the wiki...
[04:32] <cprofitt> doctormo and I discussed some of that today
[04:32] <pleia2> ok, good :)
[04:32] <BiosElement> cprofitt: I'll help port it to asciidoc if needed also. Actually offered to do that but doctormo isn't a fan of backporting because it's dull work.
[04:33] <cprofitt> we also need to work on building 'strands'
[04:33] <pleia2> I figure wiki is kinda common ground, and easy entry point for new contributors to see what's up
[04:33] <cprofitt> I think the current pages we have up are a bit rough from the perspective of putting together a 'course' or 'strand'
[04:33] <pleia2> cprofitt: oh yes, they are very rough, it's all brainstorms that need to be reined in
[04:33] <cprofitt> and I realize that I, due to being inactive this summer, am standing in a glass house
[04:34] <pleia2> we've all just been throwing our thoughts up there and slowly getting them worked into a usable form
[04:34] <cprofitt> I sent an email to the list today on the rough concept I am talking about
[04:34] <pleia2> but it's time-consuming, we need more help :)
[04:34] <BiosElement> cprofitt: It's rough but I do like your concept so far.
[04:34] <cprofitt> we need to break 'courses' up in to meaningful chunks that can be put together in to strands
[04:34] <cprofitt> command line is useful for desktop users and server users
[04:35] <pleia2> cprofitt: I really think we want to be discussing this on list and on the wiki though, perhaps before setting the courses in stone in moodle
[04:35] <cprofitt> so beginning command line should be in both strands
[04:35] <cprofitt> for that reason we should have a sep. course on beginners command line
[04:35] <cprofitt> and not have it contained in another course
[04:36] <cprofitt> I agree -- I built a rough framework on Moodle tonight
[04:36] <cprofitt> not a thing set in stone
[04:36] <cprofitt> I prefer to 'show' examples
[04:36] <pleia2> the rough framework seems to ignore al lthe work bodhi and I have done these past couple months
[04:36] <pleia2> alright
[04:36] <cprofitt> and I realized that through my teaching you and doctormo that I did not have 'examples' that were strong enough
[04:36] <cprofitt> so I need to make at least one
[04:36] <cprofitt> even if it never gets published
[04:37] <pleia2> sounds good, I just want to make sure we're collaborating here properly
[04:37] <cprofitt> I do not see how I am ignoring any work you and bodhi did... please explain
[04:37] <pleia2> cprofitt: the structure in moodle currently is vastly different from what we have in the wiki
[04:37] <pleia2> it might have been brainstorming, but we did actually put some thought into it :)
[04:38] <cprofitt> I though that was a brainstorm for topics -- not the structure of a course
[04:38] <cprofitt> from my talk with doctormo anyway
[04:38] <pleia2> the wiki page was built to start out as brainstorming, and evolve into course layout
[04:38] <pleia2> so as we think about course layout, we update the wiki
[04:39] <cprofitt> the current categories in Moodle are How to Maintain, How to Develop, How to Spread, How to Use Ubuntu
[04:39] <cprofitt> those match right?
[04:39] <pleia2> and how to teach
[04:39] <cprofitt> That is the Moodle Courses...
[04:39] <cprofitt> so we just need to 'change that title'
[04:40] <pleia2> we aren't putting the "how to teach" category into moodle?
[04:40] <cprofitt> we are...
[04:40] <cprofitt> in Moodle it is currently listed as Moodle Courses
[04:40] <cprofitt> so we need to change the 'category' title
[04:40] <pleia2> oh, gotcha
[04:40] <pleia2> yeah, because it's broader than that, goes into in-classroom teaching and such
[04:40] <cprofitt> so for your course ideas
[04:40] <cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/UbuntuDesktopTopics
[04:41] <cprofitt> Introduction to the Command Line
[04:41] <cprofitt>     * handling files w/ command line
[04:41] <cprofitt>     * troubleshooting w/ command line
[04:41] <cprofitt>     * hardware related command line
[04:41] <cprofitt> those topics would also be in How To Maintain / server courses right?
[04:41] <cprofitt> Installing Applications
[04:41] <cprofitt>     * What are repositories, and how do they work
[04:41] <cprofitt>     * Add/Remove Programs
[04:41] <cprofitt>     * Aptitude and Apt
[04:41] <cprofitt>     * Synaptic Package Manager
[04:41] <pleia2> so, since doctormo is actually experienced with teaching the desktop stuff, I think we need to collaborate with him as to how soon/if this CLI should be taught in an introductory desktop class
[04:41] <cprofitt> and the installing would be as well right?
[04:42] <pleia2> in the past he has said he's avoided it, since the first courses are very very basic, for people who just surf the web and check email
[04:42] <cprofitt> I am looking at your page...
[04:42] <cprofitt> I added the sub-bullets to command line, but it was there...
[04:42] <cprofitt> and the installing applications was there too
[04:42] <pleia2> installing applications all sounds reasonable
[04:43] <cprofitt> that page is just one course... or ideas for all Desktop topics?
[04:43] <pleia2> getting into hard core command line stuff I don't remember
[04:43] <cprofitt> I was looking at the main bullets are topic areas...
[04:43] <cprofitt> and did not think that the entire thing was a course outline
[04:43] <pleia2> hang on, let me dig up the log from when we discussed how we develop courses
[04:43] <pleia2> maybe it'll help clear things up
[04:44] <cprofitt> I think it is linked from that page
[04:44] <cprofitt> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/08/14/%23ubuntu-learning.html
[04:44] <pleia2> ah, yes
[04:45] <cprofitt> as a quick bit of clarification... is the outline on that page - topics or a course?
[04:45] <pleia2> a bit of everything
[04:45] <pleia2> sorry, I've been doing the best I can at this alone
[04:45] <cprofitt> ...
[04:45] <cprofitt> No, problem...
[04:46] <cprofitt> I talked to Doc today and he led me to believe it was just a list of ideas / topics
[04:46] <pleia2> ok, so we toss ideas on the wiki
[04:46] <cprofitt> and the topics had to be 'grouped' in to courses
[04:46] <pleia2> then we take the ideas on the wiki and start grouping them
[04:46] <pleia2> still on the wiki
[04:46] <cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/SystemAdminTopics
[04:46] <cprofitt> see his page...
[04:46] <pleia2> and then we start collaborating and deciding what should be grouped together, still on the wiki
[04:46] <cprofitt> yes... we need to get the grouped on the wiki...
[04:47] <pleia2> I mean, some of it is grouped
[04:47] <cprofitt> but we have to be aware of 'topics' that cross boundaries
[04:47] <pleia2> just needs further development
[04:47] <cprofitt> no sense in you developing a course on keeping Ubuntu up to date and installing new software embedded in a basic desktop course
[04:47] <pleia2> and organizing (for instance, if we do command line stuff in the desktop course, it should be at the end)
[04:47] <cprofitt> and have someone else do the same for servers if the content is the same
[04:47] <pleia2> of course
[04:48] <cprofitt> -- think different for a second pleia2
[04:48] <cprofitt> do not embed command line in a desktop course
[04:48] <cprofitt> make it a course
[04:48] <cprofitt> that is part of both the desktop and server strand
[04:48] <cprofitt> kinda like a college major
[04:48] <pleia2> maybe I'm a bit confused as to your terms
[04:48] <pleia2> and like doctormo, I was never formally educated
[04:48] <cprofitt> a CS major would take C++ and Perl...
[04:49] <cprofitt> so would a Systems Administration major
[04:49] <pleia2> (nothing beyond k12)
[04:49] <cprofitt> there are 'courses' that are part of both majors
[04:49] <pleia2> ok
[04:49] <cprofitt> so instead of those topics being embedded inside another course they get their own...
[04:49] <cprofitt> and we give people a strand...
[04:50] <cprofitt> desktop
[04:50] <cprofitt>  * install
[04:50] <cprofitt>  * Open Office
[04:50] <cprofitt>  * Multimedia
[04:50] <cprofitt> the bullets are each a course
[04:50] <cprofitt> the desktop is the 'major'
[04:51] <pleia2> right
[04:51] <cprofitt> college majors have 'required' and 'electives'
[04:51] <cprofitt> we will have 'recommended'
[04:51] <cprofitt> and 'extras'
[04:51] <cprofitt> or 'basic'
[04:51] <cprofitt> and 'power users'
[04:51] <cprofitt> or some such
[04:51] <cprofitt> so we build small courses
[04:52] <cprofitt> and put them together in a 'strand' depending on what people would need to learn to accomplish certain things
[04:52] <cprofitt> server strand would include MySQL, PHP, Apache, etc
[04:52] <cprofitt> but a person may not take Apache if they just intend to be a DB admin
[04:52] <pleia2> ok
[04:52] <cprofitt> did I clarify that enough?
[04:53] <pleia2> hm, maybe we were talking about different things then
[04:53] <cprofitt> so on the wiki -- we need a 'ideas' + 'topics'
[04:53] <cprofitt> we then need to take the ideas and develop courses
[04:53] <pleia2> ah, instead of fleshing it all out inline?
[04:54] <cprofitt> keeping in mind items that cross 'areas'
[04:54] <cprofitt> to ensure that we do not do double work
[04:54] <cprofitt> I always thought the button areas were strands from how they were explained not monolithic courses
[04:54] <cprofitt> after we have the courses we can build the strands...
[04:54] <cprofitt> desktop user
[04:55] <cprofitt> desktop support technicia
[04:55] <cprofitt> etc...
[04:55] <cprofitt> what should people learn to do 'job x'
[04:55] <cprofitt> and job y
[04:55] <cprofitt> etc.
[04:55] <pleia2> ok, maybe you should start putting this framework into place for the desktop course wiki page?
[04:55] <cprofitt> http://www.rit.edu/programs/grad/colleges/ccis/net_admin.html
[04:55] <pleia2> I think that would help me understand
[04:55] <cprofitt> that is an example of a masters program
[04:56] <cprofitt> I intend to... want to discuss it on the ML and at the next meeting...
[04:56] <pleia2> yeah, I do understand that classes are shared between majors
[04:56] <cprofitt> then can put it in place on the wiki...
[04:56] <pleia2> and that it's probably good for us too
[04:56] <pleia2> ok
[04:57] <cprofitt> This is the first time I have had to really put my brain to thinking about this stuff
[04:57] <cprofitt> so I apologize for injecting ideas 'late'
[04:57] <cprofitt> I also think we really have to produce a single course...
[04:58] <cprofitt> and then build out a complete strand...
[04:58] <pleia2> they're good ideas, just causes us to backtrack again
[04:58] <cprofitt> and think we should focus on getting that done...
[04:58] <cprofitt> pleia2, I am not sure it really causes backtracking...
[04:58] <cprofitt> as the ascidocs should be able to be 'broken' up
[04:58] <cprofitt> and little work should be lost...
[04:58] <pleia2> yeah, but we'll need to rethink how we've been doing development in bzr
[04:59] <pleia2> nothing should be lost, just more restructuring
[04:59] <cprofitt> from the view I have... the 'courses' you and doc were working on will become the strands
[04:59] <pleia2> I think mostly I'm just frustrated that I've been trying to write a course for months, and every month someone has a new idea as to how to go about it
[04:59] <cprofitt> I have not looked at the bzr pages yet...
[05:00] <pleia2> ah
[05:00] <cprofitt> I will have to do that soon too.
[05:00] <cprofitt> you will be happy with one 'idea' of mine then pleia2
[05:00] <pleia2> yeah, I think it would help us all get on the same page
[05:00] <cprofitt> I think the 'basic' desktop strand is the first that we need to finish
[05:00] <pleia2> cprofitt: your ideas are good and come from experience
[05:00] <cprofitt> so I am all for helping you get it 'done'
[05:01] <pleia2> I am just wondering if I should step back for a while until it's all hashed out
[05:01] <pleia2> else I go crazy :)
[05:01] <cprofitt> I can not speak to that pleia2, but I suspect we have all had our share of 'crazy' moments
[05:02] <cprofitt> I certainly respect people who are willing to fight through the misunderstandings and mis-steps that are inevitable with a volunteer project
[05:02] <cprofitt> and I find your input to be of high value
[05:02] <pleia2> when it comes down to it, I don't care a *ton* about how we go about course development, so long as the end result is core material that can be used in the 3 major mediums the project targets (irc, live, and moodle)
[05:02] <pleia2> I am just growing tired of the rollar coaster, just tell me where I can put the core material I write and I'll be happy :)
[05:03] <pleia2> one day it's odt, then it's asciidoc, then it's "wait, aren't we doing this all in moodle?" aah
[05:03] <cprofitt> to be honest...
[05:03] <cprofitt> I think the 'content' can come from .odt, asciidocs, or even existing wiki pages
[05:04] <pleia2> well, the "content" I speak of is what doctormo has in bzr now
[05:04] <cprofitt> authors should pick the 'content' and mold it in to a course
[05:04] <pleia2> which is already in a loose course format, which can be put into irc, live or moodle
[05:04] <cprofitt> for example there are several quality command line wiki's and guides available
[05:04] <cprofitt> we may or may not need to re-write parts...
[05:05] <pleia2> I think having a look at bzr would help this discussion a lot
[05:05] <pleia2> we don't seem to be on the same page here
[05:05] <cprofitt> but some of the existing resources could be used as a 'book' would be in a college course
[05:05] <pleia2> doctormo isn't just copying stuff from wikis into bzr, he has course outlines and stuff
[05:05] <cprofitt> we need to frame the course out... and that is why I wanted to work on the two in Moodle so I could show a concrete example
[05:05] <cprofitt> I know... I know
[05:06] <pleia2> ok
[05:06] <cprofitt> his stuff is good.
[05:06] <cprofitt> I like his outlines that he has on his blog
[05:06] <pleia2> his stuff currently is loose enough that it can be molded into whatever format we want, and that's what I mean when I say "core material"
[05:07] <cprofitt> you do agree that wiki material can be used too; right?
[05:07] <pleia2> yes
[05:07] <cprofitt> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Beginners/BashScripting
[05:07] <cprofitt> that is already done...
[05:07] <cprofitt> but guiding a 'student' to learning it is another matter.
[05:07] <pleia2> right, so we'd need to put it into a course layout
[05:07] <pleia2> right
[05:08] <cprofitt> back when the EDU FG existed -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Education/Resources
[05:08] <cprofitt> I had this...
[05:08] <cprofitt> I have not reviewed it for dead links, etc...
[05:08] <cprofitt> but there is a lot of quality material...
[05:08] <pleia2> yeah, that's kinda what we're doing with our inline links on the wiki
[05:08] <cprofitt> already in the community and we need to leverage that for courses
[05:08] <pleia2> collecting good source material, good references
[05:08] <cprofitt> right -- so then the course would have to put stuff together...
[05:09] <pleia2> if you see on SystemAdminTopics for instance, there are such links
[05:09] <cprofitt> add a bit of knowledge
[05:09] <pleia2> yeah, and we've been gathering volunteers to find these links to good documentation
[05:09] <cprofitt> and check for understanding with quizzes or activities
[05:09] <pleia2> so when the person writes the course, they have it all at their fingertips
[05:09] <cprofitt> yep
[05:09] <cprofitt> we also need to provide a high level view
[05:10] <cprofitt> so we know what should be a 'course' so that it fits in to strands
[05:10] <cprofitt> for example -- https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories/CommandLine
[05:10] <cprofitt> is that basic command line
[05:10] <pleia2> I need to head to bed
[05:10] <cprofitt> or installing ?
[05:10] <pleia2> work in less than 8 hours :\
[05:10] <cprofitt> alright...
[05:10] <cprofitt> have a good night
[05:10] <pleia2> thanks for talking :)
[05:10] <cprofitt> I have a holiday tomorrow
[05:11] <pleia2> ah, lucky
[05:11] <cprofitt> yeah for K-12 schedules
[05:11] <cprofitt> I will try to hash more of this on the list
[05:11] <cprofitt> we need to set our next meeting date too
[05:11] <pleia2> next monday evening?
[05:11] <cprofitt> sounds good...
[05:11] <pleia2> doodle tells us that sunday and monday evenings are good
[05:12] <cprofitt> can you take care of posting that to fridge etc...
[05:12] <cprofitt> I will update the wiki
[05:12] <cprofitt> and can you change the topic in here...
[05:12] <cprofitt> my IRC foo is weak
[05:12] <cprofitt> from lack of practive
[05:13] <cprofitt> practice
[05:13] <cprofitt> thanks pleia2
[05:13] <pleia2> sure thing
[05:13] <cprofitt> good talking this stuff through
[05:14] <cprofitt> sorry again for interjecting it late
[05:14] <cprofitt> summers are rough for me
[05:14] <cprofitt> but that is no excuse
[05:15] <pleia2> life happens :)
[05:16]  * cprofitt nods
[05:16] <cprofitt> especially with three kids
[05:16] <cprofitt> go get some sleep pleia2
[05:16] <cprofitt> thanks again for the discussion
[05:16] <pleia2> ok, fridge is updated, so is wiki
[05:17] <pleia2> you too!
[05:17] <pleia2> night :)
[05:18] <Zachk18> night pleia2
[05:22] <cprofitt> night pleia2
[16:08] <sasa1> need help on ubuntu access root
[20:57] <cprofitt> hey BiosElement
[20:57] <BiosElement> Hey there cprofitt
[20:57] <cprofitt> I do not think I am communicating clearly enough
[20:57] <cprofitt> hey Vantrax
[20:58] <BiosElement> Well I don't think any of us are doing very well at communicating so you are not the only one. >.<
[20:58] <cprofitt> yes...
[20:58] <cprofitt> I think we need to define a 'framework' and 'glossary'
[20:59] <cprofitt> so we can work inside that
[20:59] <cprofitt> do you understand what I was trying to communicate BiosElement ?
[21:00] <BiosElement> Aye, I basically get the idea and think it's a good one.
[21:00] <cprofitt> k -- so I will work on redefinition with doctormo
[23:11] <Vantrax> hi cprofitt, left IR on over night at work again
[23:13] <cprofitt> IR?
[23:23] <cprofitt> well Bios just went off
 Rather we use docbook? ;) Because that's the "standard" for documents.
 No. I know nothing about docbooks
 and we are not producing 'documents'
 we are producing courses and a framework for courses to be developed in
 BiosElement please refrain from making judgments such as "walled garden" when you have no basis to make that claim
 in fact I consider it to be insulting
 though one key part of your sentence is an obvious issue -- we are NOT a document project
 Well then you have my sincere apoligies for insulting you. I will not bother you any further.
[23:23] <cprofitt> posted so the log can capture
[23:24] <cprofitt> Vantrax, I think UCLP is headed for implosion...
[23:25] <cprofitt> too many people have ONLY their interests in mind... wish to level inflammatory barbs at people when they do not get there way
[23:25] <cprofitt> bodhi_zazen, you around now... or is it kid time?
[23:29] <pleia2> cprofitt: I haven't really seen that
[23:29] <pleia2> part of the reason we have such a diverse board goal-wise so we could work through getting core stuff developed that will fit all areas we're focusing on
[23:29] <cprofitt> pleia2, we appear to have an issue with even discussing format.
[23:30] <cprofitt> leveling an accusation of 'walled garden' because I am trying to understand why asciidocs should be required vs. optional is not team work
[23:31] <pleia2> I thought we already decided that people can develop in moodle and we'd backport to asciidoc?
[23:31] <pleia2> we want to give people options for how they can write stuff
[23:31] <cprofitt> That is what I thought...
[23:31] <cprofitt> I was trying to move along to getting our pre-production settled
[23:31] <cprofitt> see private for a pastebin
[23:32] <cprofitt> I then asked if we would 'rip' content from a wiki and convert to asciidoc...
[23:32] <cprofitt> the answer was yes -- that is not something we talked about...
[23:32] <cprofitt> and should not be required for a course...
[23:32] <pleia2> no, the plan is to link to that documentation
[23:32] <pleia2> hmm
[23:32] <pleia2> let me read pm
[23:32] <cprofitt> and unless the wiki team / Canonical has worked out wiki copyright then it might even be a copyright violation
[23:33] <cprofitt> k
[23:34] <bodhi_zazen> work time cprofitt
[23:34] <cprofitt> k
[23:34] <pleia2> cprofitt: did you have a chance to look at doctormo's courses?
[23:34] <cprofitt> 10pm EDT a good time bodhi_zazen ?
[23:34] <cprofitt> pleia2, I was in the middle of looking at the ones in LP and asking questions
[23:34] <cprofitt> I have looked at several of the ones on his blog though
[23:35] <bodhi_zazen> yes, but I do not mean to keep you up late
[23:35] <cprofitt> bodhi_zazen, I am usually a 12am bedtime
[23:35] <Vantrax> I was under the impression of using asciidoc as the alternate format for offline use
[23:35] <cprofitt> so 10pm is no issue
[23:35] <cprofitt> Vantrax, I was under the impression it was an alternate optional format as well.
[23:35] <bodhi_zazen> 10 pm is a bit early for me, my children are up to 10:30 -10:45 your time
[23:35] <bodhi_zazen> you can email me if you wish
[23:36] <cprofitt> ok... I can wait
[23:36] <pleia2> cprofitt: BiosElement is mistaken with the "ripping documentation from the wiki" comment
[23:36] <Vantrax> I was not thinking optional, so any course can be done offline
[23:36] <cprofitt> Vantrax, my concern is that when we have a disagreement over a tool people level accusations which are insulting
[23:36] <pleia2> we want to link whenever possible (if it's taught in class w/o net, the instructor will just have to print the info, along with everything else)
[23:36] <cprofitt> Vantrax, I can not see 'forcing' course authors to produce in asciidocs
[23:37] <Vantrax> no, we would have to have a team to port
[23:37] <cprofitt> pleia2, -- k -- then I am in line with what you are thinking
[23:37] <cprofitt> Vantrax, a team porting is fine...
[23:37] <pleia2> we're not forcing authors to use asciidoc, it's just the team standard because then we can port it to moodle, irc or real life
[23:37] <cprofitt> as long as we do not burden authors with it...
[23:37] <cprofitt> and the only part that can go to Moodle is the 'book' type material...
[23:37] <cprofitt> the questions, quizzes do not transfer -- at least at this time
[23:38] <pleia2> yeah, irc won't have quizzes
[23:38] <pleia2> questionable whether real life would
[23:38] <pleia2> so it's probably ok that they don't transfer
[23:39] <cprofitt> yep
[23:39]  * bodhi_zazen reads up
[23:39] <cprofitt> or real life quizzes would certainly be different
[23:39]  * pleia2 nods
[23:39] <pleia2> so my vision is pretty much, core material distributed via asciidoc (class outlines, course overviews, main content and *links to content*
[23:39] <pleia2> )
[23:40] <Vantrax> could be the same quizzes, just presented/conducted differently
[23:40] <pleia2> then each team (real life, irc, and moodle) takes that material and puts it into their format
[23:40] <pleia2> but there can be a bit of back and forth
[23:40] <pleia2> if someone is more comfortable writing in moodle, we'll pull their material into the core asciidoc
[23:40] <pleia2> if someone is more comfortable conducting a class in IRC and dumping brain there, we can work with IRC logs
[23:40] <pleia2> to put them into asciidoc
[23:41] <pleia2> honestly I see our (as the UCLP) core function is to orchestrate this
[23:41] <pleia2> I didn't actually sign up to write classes myself :)
[23:41] <bodhi_zazen> +1 pleia2
[23:42] <bodhi_zazen> We need to collaborate with existing teams documentation
[23:42] <cprofitt> exactly... when we first started it was a major point that we were not producing documentation
[23:43] <cprofitt> we were building courses
[23:43] <pleia2> yep
[23:43] <cprofitt> by using existing documentation (perhaps with a bit of augmentation)
[23:43] <bodhi_zazen> o/
[23:44] <cprofitt> go ahead bodhi_zazen
[23:45] <cprofitt> but what function does asciidoc serve... that is what I am trying to get at...
[23:46] <bodhi_zazen> It is off topic a bit, but I would echo the sentiment cprofitt mentioned earlier ...
[23:46] <pleia2> cprofitt: we need a format that we can all collaborate on and has revision control (preferably)
[23:46] <cprofitt> does the wiki have revision control?
[23:46] <pleia2> IRC people don't want to learn moodle, moodle people don't want to learn docbook, etc
[23:46] <bodhi_zazen> I feel there is too much hostility on this project and I for one would like to see people act more maturely
[23:46] <pleia2> asciidoc was a compromise
[23:46] <pleia2> +bzr
[23:47] <pleia2> cprofitt: the benefit of asciidoc is that you can export it to pdf and formats that make that make translations easy
[23:47] <cprofitt> thanks bodhi_zazen - I was a bit offended at a 'quit' based on the conversation and accusations that I do not want this to be open source... and that I was making it a walled garden
[23:47] <pleia2> wiki, not so much :(
[23:47] <cprofitt> ad-hominem attacks are not productive
[23:48] <bodhi_zazen> I think we need to go back to our core goals
[23:48] <cprofitt> would .odt be more difficult than asciidoc?
[23:48] <pleia2> cprofitt: BiosElement has put a ton of work into exploring formats for the team over the past couple months, I suspect you coming in "out of nowhere" and appearing to him to declare all his work moot and moodle the default a bit offensive :(
[23:48]  * cprofitt slaps head
[23:48] <cprofitt> yes... I agree bodhi_zazen
[23:49] <bodhi_zazen> sure we all come from diverse backgrounds, but we are putting together a Moodle project
[23:49] <pleia2> cprofitt: odt is bad for revision control and translations
[23:49] <cprofitt> pleia2, as much as that may be... there is no excuse for not explaining it
[23:49] <cprofitt> I never said his work was moot
[23:49] <pleia2> cprofitt: odt is there now, but we quickly decided it is not a real solution
[23:49] <pleia2> cprofitt: I know, I am sure it felt like you did though
[23:49] <cprofitt> pleia2, I guess that is an issue of maturity then
[23:50] <cprofitt> as bodhi_zazen said
[23:50] <cprofitt> and an issue of 'trust' on the team
[23:50] <pleia2> cprofitt: perhaps, but you did miss a lot of discussions and meetings we've had on this subject
[23:50] <cprofitt> we are all working for the benefit of Ubuntu and open source
[23:50] <cprofitt> even when we have a difference of opinion of a lack of understanding it would pay for all of use to remember that
[23:50] <pleia2> we've already pretty much hashed out reasons for this or that format
[23:50] <pleia2> now we're having to explain it all again, he felt attacked
[23:50] <cprofitt> and to assume that we are all on the same team... not working to make things bad
[23:51] <cprofitt> I have missed them pleia2
[23:51] <cprofitt> As we have new people come on board we will likely have to explain these things again
[23:51] <pleia2> I think he's just frustrated that he put a lot of work in, and now a "board member" comes back and says "no, we're not using that!"
[23:52] <cprofitt> asking for information should not result in an accusation of my turning this in to a walled garden instead of an open source project
[23:52] <pleia2> yeah
[23:52] <cprofitt> I never said we are not using it.
[23:52] <pleia2> but I do understand how he feels
[23:52] <cprofitt> I said we should not require it
[23:52] <cprofitt> I understand how he may feel
[23:52] <cprofitt> my understanding how he feels has little to do with the behavior he exhibited
[23:52] <cprofitt> nor does it make his behavior productive
[23:52] <bodhi_zazen> Frankly I think this discussion is a bit silly ^^
[23:52] <pleia2> yeah, it may have been a little out of line :\
[23:53] <bodhi_zazen> The information will be on the moodle site
[23:53] <cprofitt> we need to get to the work of producing a course
[23:53] <bodhi_zazen> people may develop content however they wish
[23:53] <bodhi_zazen> and it is not our main focus to figure out how to port or translate it =0
[23:53] <cprofitt> I think allowing authors to use the 'back-end' they are comfortable with at first helps us get some courses up
[23:54] <pleia2> cprofitt: +1
[23:54] <swoody> +1 cprofitt
[23:54] <cprofitt> heck -- the courses I would build will link mostly to existing wiki articles
[23:54] <cprofitt> I would not want to be 'forced' to convert that to an asciidoc
[23:54] <pleia2> I think this is kinda what we agreed upon a couple weeks ago
[23:54] <cprofitt> perhaps the course outline could be in asciidoc if the wiki does not work
[23:54] <swoody> I think it would be great to get some work done, and then I think the team will be more focused on the ultimate goal rather than the semantics.
[23:54] <cprofitt> pleia2, I agree... that is why I was a bit surprised by the conversation bios started
[23:55] <bodhi_zazen> work - gasp no not work =)
[23:55] <swoody> haha, well we have to do it sometime, bodhi_zazen ;)
[23:55] <pleia2> cprofitt: I get the impression he thought you were pushing moodle as the standard
[23:55] <pleia2> for everyone
 Because I think moodle's a cruddy platform that gets things "stuck" within it. I tend to think of it more as a tool then a platform personally.
[23:55] <pleia2> yeah, he doesn't like it, doesn't want to use it
[23:55] <pleia2> he thought you were going to make him
 the only real 'difference' I see is that some people are focused on IRC, in-person or other formats
 the 'binding' format is Moodle.
 Doc can make his courses using asciidocs, pleia can use .odt, etc
 what format the author prefers should not matter currently...
 And that format I have to respectfully disagree with. Which is why I'm working on a system that everyone can agree with.
[23:56] <cprofitt> I think I was pretty clear that the author can use the format they want
[23:56] <cprofitt> UCLP will produce courses for Moodle.
[23:56] <cprofitt> those Moodle courses may have several IRC sessions
[23:56] <cprofitt> or they may have only an IRC open time with the teacher
[23:57] <cprofitt> or they might be all self-paced
[23:57] <pleia2> well, UCLP will produce courses for moodle, courses for IRC and courses for real life classrooms
[23:57] <cprofitt> I honestly do not recall the real life classrooms being in our original mission
[23:57] <pleia2> honestly we've had more demand for net-less classroom teaching thus far
[23:57] <pleia2> cprofitt: that's what doctormo has been doing all along :) he's already teaching in real life classrooms
[23:57] <pleia2> ubuntu pennsylvania is gearing up for some too
[23:57] <pleia2> that's part of why I got involved
[23:58] <pleia2> so maybe you don't recall it, but it certainly has aways been there, that's why doctormo is on the team
[23:58] <cprofitt> pleia2, I understand that...
[23:58] <cprofitt> the original mission statement was a bit vague
[23:58] <cprofitt> We intend to do this by working with existing teams to build and maintain an interactive learning environment(s) to support teaching all aspects of the Ubuntu Ecosystem that will allow the community to undertake self paced and instructor lead teaching in conjunction with IRC based training, question times, challenges, and other interactive teaching methods.
[23:59] <cprofitt> it was just how I 'viewed' it
[23:59] <pleia2> that's because we were covering so much ground and didn't want to focus on one medium too much (because we have 3 distinct mediums)
[23:59] <cprofitt> as a question...
[23:59] <cprofitt> will there be some courses that will not be converted from in-person to Moodle?