[00:00] <cprofitt> will there be IRC courses that have no Moodle component?
[00:00] <cprofitt> I can live with a yes to both of those... just looking for clarity
[00:00] <pleia2> as I explained above, we want core material that will be used everywhere
[00:00] <pleia2> we can all follow the same basic course outlines, regardless of format
[00:01] <cprofitt> but in some cases the 'core' material already exists...
[00:01] <cprofitt> Moodle will just 'link to it' and create exercises... quizzes...
[00:01] <pleia2> sorry, I thought I explained
[00:01] <cprofitt> so asciidocs will just be a course outline...
[00:01] <pleia2> core material is outlines, content and links to content, etc
[00:01] <cprofitt> what needs to be covered... resources... etc.
[00:02] <pleia2> right
[00:02] <cprofitt> that paints things in a different light...
[00:02] <cprofitt> but if a Moodle course author wants to create a course in Moodle they will not be compelled to produce the outline in asciidoc
[00:02] <cprofitt> it will be converted by a UCLP team
[00:02] <pleia2> right
[00:03] <pleia2> we can try to convince them to convert it to asciidoc so the whole team can use it :) but they won't be required to, we can pick that up
[00:03] <cprofitt> and there may be an IRC class that has an 'outline' but no Moodle component?
[00:03] <pleia2> if no one writes the moodle component, there won't be one
[00:04] <cprofitt> or an in person class that has an 'outline' but no Moodle component
[00:04] <pleia2> it's going to be up to the teams to take the asciidoc outlines and put them into their format
[00:04] <cprofitt> right... so if doc, who wants in-person classes, writes a course outline he will do it in asciidoc, but someone else would have to use his outline for a Moodle course
[00:04] <pleia2> that's the idea, I am not sure I like your "have to" though
[00:05] <pleia2> the core docs and such are collaborative, we all work on the core, we all draw from that pool
[00:05] <cprofitt> I did not mean to imply have to... they could not use his outline
[00:05] <cprofitt> but if they wanted 'his' course in Moodle they would use his outline
[00:05] <pleia2> yeah, they could not, but at that point why be involved with us at all?
[00:05] <pleia2> the idea here is to collaborate on all fronts to create greate courses
[00:05] <cprofitt> so my 'have to' was not meant in the way you took it... it was more of a 'this makes sense' thing
[00:06] <pleia2> ah, gotcha
[00:06] <cprofitt> it would be kinda 'stupid' to want docs course and not use his outline
[00:06] <cprofitt> sorry for the mis-communication there
[00:06] <cprofitt> bodhi_zazen, you still following?
[00:07] <pleia2> I kinda see wiki+asciidoc to be were we do much of the collaboration
[00:07] <pleia2> s/were/where
[00:07] <bodhi_zazen> a little
[00:07] <pleia2> cprofitt: you have good points though, we should rely upon the wiki more
[00:07] <cprofitt> k... just curious if that made sense to you...
[00:07] <cprofitt> it does to me.
[00:07] <cprofitt> let me try to summarize what I am now understanding... note: I could be wrong
[00:07] <bodhi_zazen> pleia2: I think our core material should be on the Ubuntu wiki
[00:08] <cprofitt> A)  Course ideas, content links, etc will be gathered on a wiki
[00:08] <pleia2> bodhi_zazen: so toss out asciidoc and bzr entirely?
[00:08] <bodhi_zazen> Yes
[00:08] <cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Education/Resources
[00:08] <bodhi_zazen> we should organize the wiki information into coherent chunks
[00:08] <bodhi_zazen> and course outlines
[00:08] <pleia2> bodhi_zazen: so how do we handle translations and easy exports to pdf and other formats?
[00:08] <bodhi_zazen> course Desktop
[00:09] <bodhi_zazen> Objective : foo bar
[00:09] <bodhi_zazen> Wiki pages : 1,2,3
[00:09] <bodhi_zazen> Questions / self assessment
[00:09] <cprofitt> educators call it a rubric
[00:09] <bodhi_zazen> people use questions to see if they "understand" the material
[00:10] <bodhi_zazen> something like that
[00:10] <cprofitt> I still want to summarize what my understanding of what pleia was looking at...
[00:10] <pleia2> cprofitt: sorry, go ahead :)
[00:10] <cprofitt> A) Course ideas, content links, etc will be on the wiki....
[00:10] <bodhi_zazen> we probably need to generate things more like courses, course objectives, lists of wiki pages, etc
[00:10] <cprofitt> B) Course outlines -- would be in ascii doc
[00:10] <cprofitt> C) courses themselves would then either be printed, in IRC, or on Moodle
[00:10] <bodhi_zazen> we contribute back by generating wiki pages or improving wiki pages or at least working with the wiki team
[00:11] <pleia2> cprofitt: pretty much
[00:11] <cprofitt> bodhi_zazen, I agree...
[00:11] <cprofitt> from what I am gathering no actual course information is in asciidoc
[00:11] <pleia2> course outlines would be more fleshed out, so we could immediately export them to pdf for live classroom use, for instance
[00:11] <cprofitt> just the rubric
[00:11] <pleia2> or drop them into a moodle book
[00:11] <hal14450> cprofitt, while i'm here i'd like to offer a sip account to anyone else that needs one if you want to do another conference call that way it doesn't cost me anything
[00:12] <bodhi_zazen> We can tell the wiki team, biased on feed back from our desktop course, people would like to see the following improvements on page xyz
[00:12] <pleia2> asciidoc can be exported to pdf, so can easily be put into moodle
[00:12] <pleia2> err
[00:12] <pleia2> s/pdf/html
[00:12] <hal14450> just pm me if one is needed
[00:12] <bodhi_zazen> or people really liked the format of page abc, use it more
[00:12] <cprofitt> thanks hal14450
[00:12] <bodhi_zazen> so we need a feedback mechanism
[00:13] <hal14450> yw
[00:13] <cprofitt> pleia2, but unless I am mistaken nothing we have discussed being in the asciidoc would go in to Moodle
[00:13] <cprofitt> I think it might help to have one complete course -- as an example...
[00:13] <pleia2> cprofitt: now I'm confused :) I thought course outlines would go into moodle..?
[00:14] <pleia2> when we discuss course outlines, I kinda have in mind what doctormo has already produced
[00:14] <pleia2> all of that stuff can be dumped into moodle as html almost as-is
[00:14] <cprofitt> http://learn.ufbt.net/course/view.php?id=9
[00:14] <cprofitt> that is a rough outline in Moodle
[00:14] <cprofitt> with not content linked in yet
[00:14] <pleia2> I understand
[00:15] <cprofitt> is that what you are referring too?
[00:15] <pleia2> are you saying doctormo's current material can't be put into that format in moodle? I don't understand why not
[00:15] <pleia2> it seems pretty much the same
[00:15] <cprofitt> pleia2, I am not saying it can't be
[00:15] <pleia2> ok, why wouldn't it be?
[00:15] <cprofitt> certainly a person could both do the outline and actual course in asciidoc
[00:16] <cprofitt> but what we had discussed is the outline would be in asciidoc
[00:16] <cprofitt> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~williamchambers/ubuntu-learning-materials/asciidocformat/annotate/4/systems-admin/book.txt
[00:16] <pleia2> as I said, the outline would be more than what you have in that moodle course
[00:16] <cprofitt> that content there appears to have an outline and some content
[00:16] <pleia2> it would be a fleshed out course, ready to put into moodle or be printed
[00:16] <pleia2> yes, content and links to content
[00:17] <pleia2> 19:10:49 < cprofitt> C) courses themselves would then either be printed, in IRC, or on Moodle <-- I see this as minimal tweaks to core fleshed out outlines, only done to get it put into the proper format
[00:17] <cprofitt> yes...
[00:17] <pleia2> so A is the information gathering stage
[00:17] <cprofitt> so in the case of a course for printing the content, outline, links, etc... would be in asciidoc
[00:17] <pleia2> B is the course development stage
[00:17] <pleia2> C is where we port the material to different formats
[00:18] <cprofitt> but in the case of a Moodle course the outline would be in asciidoc and the content, links, quizzes, etc... would be in Moodle
[00:18] <cprofitt> if another person wanted to 'pull' the Moodle content and links they could do so
[00:18]  * pleia2 sighs
[00:18] <cprofitt> but the author of the Moodle course would not be required to put it in asciidoc
[00:18] <cprofitt> right?
[00:18] <pleia2> I don't understand where we arent communicating here
[00:19] <cprofitt> I do not either...
[00:19] <cprofitt> but it is likely because we have no 'complete' example
[00:19] <Vantrax> one point I would like to make, only rely on links in the ubuntu ecosystem
[00:19] <Vantrax> if its outside that i would rather replicate it
[00:19] <pleia2> sure, we'll allow people to skip B and go right to developing things themselves in Moodle, since requiring them to use asciidoc is a barrier to entry
[00:20] <pleia2> the team can pull it from C back into B for collboration, improvement and redistribution to other formats
[00:20] <cprofitt> so what do we do with this type of resource pleia2  - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Beginners/BashScripting
[00:21] <Vantrax> So wiki.ubuntu.com/sometopic or help.ubunt is a good link, we have some degree of control and know it will be maintained, but external sites might not be
[00:21] <pleia2> but I want it to be clear that we're offering this option as an easy to entry, and that it means the course developer won't get the benefits of collaboration
[00:21] <cprofitt> that wiki appears to cross some of what is in docs course I just linked
[00:21] <cprofitt> do we pull that wiki in to an asciidoc... or just use the wiki
[00:21] <pleia2> cprofitt: we'd link to it...
[00:21] <pleia2> no, we don't pull anything from the wiki into asciidoc
[00:21] <cprofitt> so any improvement would be done directly in the wiki
[00:22] <pleia2> right
[00:22] <cprofitt> and the asciidoc would only contain the 'goals' 'introduction' and a link to that wiki
[00:22] <pleia2> whatever we write in the courses will be written because we're trying to teach it, we're not rewriting reference material
[00:22] <cprofitt> but some of what was in docs course is in this wiki...
[00:22] <pleia2> cprofitt: I guess I'm confused, it seems like you're saying moodle will not be linked, it'll be pulling wiki content into moodle
[00:22] <pleia2> I don't understand
[00:23] <cprofitt> that is why I was asking...
[00:23] <Vantrax> I think wiki is background information, or relevent helpful information in understanding
[00:23] <Vantrax> I think Moodle should be on how to apply information to make it knowledge
[00:23] <cprofitt> no, Moodle would link people to this wiki article
[00:23] <pleia2> right, docs course stuff probably needs to be fixed to point to more already existing resources
[00:23] <cprofitt> just like giving a student a reading assignment
[00:23] <cprofitt> then the Moodle course would given them questions to check for understanding
[00:23] <pleia2> cprofitt: ok, so asciidoc will link to the wiki, moodle will link tothe wiki, what are we arguing about?
[00:23] <cprofitt> we are not arguing...
[00:23] <pleia2> sorry, where is the misunderstanding?
[00:24] <Vantrax> not just questions cp, further information, tips on application to try and build understanding
[00:24] <cprofitt> I am trying to understand the process that developed while I was not able to attend meetings
[00:24] <pleia2> docs courses need to leverage the wiki more, I agree
[00:24] <cprofitt> Vantrax, yes... if that is there.
[00:24] <cprofitt> pleia2, I am not poking at things for argument...
[00:24] <cprofitt> I am just honestly trying to piece things together
[00:24] <Vantrax> I always thought moodle was a place where everything comes together
[00:24] <pleia2> ok
[00:25] <cprofitt> Vantrax, from what pleia2 said it will not be...
[00:25] <pleia2> Vantrax: sure, if you're teaching in a classroom with internet, or in independent study
[00:25] <Vantrax> use of information on the wiki, help, and asciidoc as well in a combined format
[00:25] <cprofitt> for on-line Moodle courses it will be
[00:25] <pleia2> Vantrax: but that is not the case for all our avenues :)
[00:25] <pleia2> we have netless classroom courses, we have irc courses
[00:25] <cprofitt> for off-line in-person courses or IRC courses Moodle may not be used at all
[00:25]  * pleia2 nods
[00:25] <Vantrax> the export file 'asciidoc' would be the way for people to use the content offline
[00:26]  * pleia2 sighs
[00:26] <pleia2> I give up for now
[00:26] <pleia2> I'll come back later to talk about this
[00:26] <cprofitt> in some cases the asciidoc would be rather useless for off-line courses if it links to too many on-line resources
[00:26] <Vantrax> which would duplicated relevant information from moodle and wiki, else im not sure how people could use it offline
[00:26] <cprofitt> pleia2, ok... sorry it is frustrating
[00:26] <cprofitt> Vantrax, no...
[00:26] <cprofitt> the asciidoc will not contain the wiki content
[00:27] <cprofitt> it would just contain the link information
[00:27] <pleia2> cprofitt: I'm sorry too, I just feel like I'm explaining the same thing for the 2nd time today (and probably 10th time in the past couple weeks)
[00:27] <pleia2> and I'm tired from work all day :)
[00:27] <cprofitt> so exporting the asciidoc would not really fill an off-line course
[00:27] <cprofitt> the wiki would have to be printed as well...
[00:27] <cprofitt> pleia2, no skin off of my nose
[00:27] <cprofitt> I appreciate you being willing to help me understand
[00:27]  * pleia2 cracks open beer and enjoys some QT with the television <3
[00:27] <pleia2> of course :)
[00:28] <cprofitt> Vantrax, do you follow that?
[00:30] <Vantrax> I think that is the problem or limitation with 'offline' you would have to print alot of resources not intended for that
[00:31] <cprofitt> true... but that would be the responsibility of the course author
[00:31] <cprofitt> I actually think this could work... as a concept...
[00:32] <cprofitt> though I think the Canonical interpretation of what we were doing (as well as mine) was different based on our early focus on Moodle
[00:33] <cprofitt> if we truly just become an agent to organize a course...
[00:33] <cprofitt> then the method of delivery becomes a non-issue
[00:33] <cprofitt> it seems as though we do not develop full courses... but blueprints for doing so...
[00:34] <Vantrax> I would like to see us do both...
[00:35] <pleia2> real quick, then I'll stop talking for real - I agree with Vantrax, we do both, but I come from the Ubuntu Classroom project where I found talent and had them do classes
[00:36] <pleia2> this project, for me, was a larger extension of that
[00:36] <pleia2> we find smart people, they write courses, we make them blueprints for use elsewhere
[00:36] <cprofitt> +1 pleia2
[00:37] <cprofitt> Vantrax, I would like to do both...
[00:37] <cprofitt> but we may only hit one of three methods in the initial course
[00:37] <pleia2> yeah, but the goal is grander :)
[00:37] <cprofitt> and then, through that, create a blueprint for authors to make a course for the other delivery methods
[00:37] <pleia2> we don't have to reach the goal right away, but it's the dream
[00:37]  * pleia2 x-files &
[00:38] <cprofitt> don't lie to me is what I am watching tonight
[00:41]  * Vantrax is at work >.<
[00:42] <cprofitt> on Tuesday no less
[00:42] <cprofitt> I am still here in Monday
[00:42] <cprofitt> your part of the world is just 'fast'
[02:26] <doctormo> pleia2, cprofitt, Vantrax, someone explain to me what's going on, why have I just had a contributor to this project walk away?
[02:27] <cprofitt> doctormo, my opinion or just the log?
[02:29] <Vantrax> ???
[02:29] <Vantrax> who walked away
[02:30] <doctormo> cprofitt: Both please
[02:31] <pleia2> yikes, he left over it?
[02:32] <doctormo> Vantrax: BiosElement,
[02:32] <pleia2> mostly a it was a misunderstanding, cprofitt and I hashed through a lot of it this evening
[02:32] <doctormo> I didn't think there was anything to go through to be honest
[02:33] <doctormo> I know there is a narrow minded push towards moodle only development, but I figured we could work around that and actually get something working where by non-moodlites could be involved.
[02:34] <doctormo> So this is why I'm asking: What happened
[02:34] <pleia2> yep, that's what we discussed, general workflow
[02:34] <cprofitt> here you go doctormo - http://pastebin.com/d3a443943
[02:34] <Vantrax> Basically, no one is required to work in asciidoc, but we are wanting to have everything replicated into asciidoc for offline/classroom etc
[02:34] <pleia2> BiosElement left before this whole discussion though
[02:34] <cprofitt> doctormo, there is no 'narrow minded' push towards anything
[02:35] <cprofitt> but there is a lot of using 'negative' terms to demean certain contributors to the project
[02:35] <doctormo> cprofitt: If you were at the last meeting, it was pretty much a brow beating, it wasn't a dicussion at all.
[02:35] <cprofitt> we could really remember that we are all on the same team... there may be a lack of understanding on some people's parts
[02:35] <cprofitt> but there is not narrow mindedness
[02:36] <cprofitt> nor is there any effort to 'garden wall' the project
[02:36] <cprofitt> I was here the last meeting -- I am pretty sure I was the person running it
[02:36] <doctormo> cprofitt: I speak of perception, don't read into it.
[02:36] <cprofitt> the problem is that using terms like narrow mindedness is an ad-hominem attack
[02:36] <cprofitt> it does nothing but create a negative atmoshpere
[02:37] <cprofitt> and bears no fruit that is edible
[02:37] <cprofitt> as to my opinion why bioselement left -- lack of maturity
[02:37] <cprofitt> but mind you that is just my opinion
[02:37] <doctormo> Do you think they are my words? I told you not to read into it
[02:38] <cprofitt> I am not reading in to it -- regardless of who owns the words they are counter-productive
[02:38] <Vantrax> doctormo, he didnt, relax:P
[02:38] <Vantrax> we are all friends here
[02:39] <doctormo> We are, I've had a hard weekend having attacks thrown at me from gnome people, man do they hate Ubuntu.
[02:42]  * pleia2 hugs doctormo 
[02:44] <cprofitt> gnomes... just tell them Orcs are on the way to their homes
[02:45] <Vantrax> lol
[02:46] <Vantrax> yeah, the gnome people are very nasty
[02:46] <Vantrax> they think Ubuntu stole their users..
[02:46]  * doctormo reads "<cprofitt> as is .docx" and blinks
[02:46] <cprofitt> well... .docx is a standard... never said a good one
[02:46] <Vantrax> lol
[02:46] <Vantrax> its not really a standard...
[02:46] <Vantrax> there was the really dodgy bribed vote that made it one
[02:47] <Vantrax> that is getting looked into now and will probably be overturned
[02:47] <cprofitt> I hope so...
[02:47] <cprofitt> I hope the i4i company gets another verdict in their favor too.
[02:48] <doctormo> OK so, firstly cprofitt, I do take issue with you calling into question BiosElement's maturity. Nothing in the way that logged conversation was handled was out of bounds, insulting or other wise derogitory.
[02:52] <doctormo> BiosElement is and was a great contributor, he did a lot of research to figure out the best ways of ammadating the majority of people. I can't just forget his contributions and his good manners, if anything I think you were more out of line to call him out of line. If we as imperfect human beings can't make incorrect judgements and be corrected, then we are damned anyway.
[02:52] <cprofitt> doctormo, the conversation is not why I drew the maturity conclusion
[02:52] <cprofitt> the leaving over it is
[02:52] <doctormo> s/ammadating/accommodating/
[02:53] <cprofitt> There was no need for him to say we were 'garden walling' the project
[02:53] <doctormo> Are we not?
[02:53] <doctormo> He need or lack of is not in question, that is not insulting.
[02:54] <doctormo> I don't understand where you can find an insult in there, even if you disagree with his view.
[02:54] <cprofitt> explain how it is Garden Walled
[02:54] <cprofitt> I was merely trying to figure out how all this stuff is 'fitting' together
[02:55] <cprofitt> NO where in the conversation did I throw a wall up...
[02:58] <Vantrax> the focus on moodle and moodles lack of easy exportability might have been his point
[02:59] <Vantrax> just guessin, I wasnt there
[02:59] <doctormo> And what if you did or didn't, it's not about what BiosElement's goddly powers set down as the right and wrongs of the universe. You gotta accept people's opinions without flipping out that it's insulting you.
[03:01] <cprofitt> doctormo, did I leave the conversation
[03:01] <cprofitt> doctormo, did I leave the project?
[03:01] <cprofitt> he could have said -- sorry I did not mean it that way... or he could have explained it
[03:01] <cprofitt> I still would like to know how I was building a walled garden...
[03:01] <doctormo> cprofitt: I don't think he should have to fight you on that, you can call into question his logic, but not his freedom to be wrong in the first place.
[03:02] <cprofitt> how did I call in to question his freedom?
[03:03] <cprofitt> or do I not have the same right to be 'wrong' as you put it?
 in fact I consider it to be insulting
[03:03] <cprofitt> and how does my considering something to be insulting inhibit freedom?
[03:04] <doctormo> I would consider it to be worse to call into question someones motives regarding their behviour than it is to question a group's archatectual direction.
[03:04] <cprofitt> I was not calling in to question his motives... I was calling in to question his choice of 'words'
[03:04] <cprofitt> doctormo, I can understand you are upset he chose to leave.
[03:05] <cprofitt> I can appreciate that your emotional response is to blame me
[03:05] <cprofitt> but I think it is incorrect to blame me.
[03:05] <doctormo> I'm actually concerned that as a community leader your not living up to the code of being even more respectful of contributors and people who are not as privilaged to be sitting on the board of a project.
[03:06] <doctormo> I don't think it's good treatment to say that something that boring is insulting.
[03:06] <cprofitt> I respectfully disagree with you.
[03:06] <cprofitt> pleia2, are you here?
[03:07] <doctormo> We will have to agree to disagree.
[03:07] <cprofitt> I think it now goes deeper sir
[03:07] <cprofitt> as you have leveled a very serious charge in my eyes
[03:07] <doctormo> If you insist on it.
[03:07] <pleia2> I think it was all a misunderstanding that got out of hand, we all have put a lot of work into this and it hurts when we feel like our work is ignored (whether or not that is the intention)
[03:08] <cprofitt> yes, but doctormo has leveled a very serious accusation against me
 I'm actually concerned that as a community leader your not living up to the code of being even more respectful of contributors and people who are not as privilaged to be sitting on the board of a project.
[03:08] <pleia2> I think you're both reading too much into specific words and blowing things a bit out of proportion
[03:08] <cprofitt> while I can understand he is emotional about this right now - I would not want to take such a charge lightly
[03:08] <cprofitt> as certainly one should not be tossed around so easily
[03:09] <doctormo> cprofitt, do you not find it ironic that you of all people should talk about restraint of tossing around such things?
[03:09] <cprofitt> No, but please explain why you do.
[03:09] <doctormo> My reasons for doubting you lie squarly on your over reaction.
[03:10] <cprofitt> You have been full of accusations and extremely short on actually giving me an explanation
[03:10] <pleia2> I think we all need to back off for a bit and get our goals straight and have a calm discussion
[03:10] <pleia2> that isn't going to happen tonight
[03:11] <cprofitt> I have no problems having a calm discussion tonight... but later can work as well.
[03:11] <swoody> As a completely unbiased fly-on-the-wall I have to agree with pleia2 here
[03:11] <cprofitt> I certainly would prefer to not have things be emotionally charged
[03:11] <swoody> I think emotions are running high, and things are not going to get any better in this manner
[03:12] <swoody> I think after letting this cool, maybe we can become a team again? Re-focus on the real goals of this project, and put aside our differences of opinion for the greater good of the team.
[03:12] <pleia2> even I'm getting upset over this, and I'm a pretty calm person :)
[03:12] <swoody> pleia2, a glass of wine helps ;)
[03:13] <pleia2> swoody: beer is more my style, and did that earlier when I started to get upset ;)
[03:13] <pleia2> now I'm back and happy again!
[03:13] <swoody> pleia2, well a good brew works, too :)
[03:14] <doctormo> Now I will attempt to get BiosElement back on side, he won't help us if we're only using moodle for development, in fact he won't help us if he thinks people will be creating deltas in moodle. So it'll going to be a one in a million bet he'll want to stay.
[03:14] <swoody> doctormo and cprofitt I hope you don't mind me intervening in this nature, but I do feel it would be the best course of action to all take a deep breath, and take a look at this with un-stressed eyes. Do you agree?
[03:14] <pleia2> doctormo: we aren't only using moodle
[03:14] <cprofitt> doctormo, no where did I say only Moodle.
[03:15] <cprofitt> swoody - I do not mind.
[03:15] <doctormo> pleia2: I know, but perception is often the evil of clarity.
[03:15] <pleia2> doctormo: I agree
[03:15] <pleia2> can you guys give me some time to draft up a document about what cprofitt and I discussed this afternoon?
[03:15] <cprofitt> clarity is gained through asking questions - as I have been trying to do... not leaving the team.
[03:15] <pleia2> I think it will clear up a lot of questions about workflow and contribution vector options
[03:15] <cprofitt> pleia2, I hope so...
[03:16] <cprofitt> it is still a little murky to me, but I can understand it a bit better.
[03:16] <cprofitt> the real issue seems to be three 'methods' of delivery
[03:16] <pleia2> yeah, It's the murkyness that's getting everyone upset
[03:16] <cprofitt> which have little in common with each other
[03:16] <doctormo> cprofitt: Don't think bad of him loosing his will to remain, he was on the edge after the meeting.
[03:16] <cprofitt> so we need to really define the common part.
[03:16] <cprofitt> I will not think bad of him doctormo
[03:17] <cprofitt> I actually like to help people 'grow'
[03:17] <doctormo> So you no longer think he's immature to quit as he did?
[03:17] <cprofitt> and have done so with many people in the BT
[03:17] <pleia2> doctormo: I didn't realize he was ever on edge :(
[03:17] <cprofitt> thinking a person is immature does not mean I think badly of him
[03:17] <cprofitt> it means he needs to gaine wisdom
[03:17] <cprofitt> I am guessing he is under 25 - potentially under 21
[03:18] <cprofitt> and I understand that when I was that age I would have had absolutely no comprehension that I lacked any maturity
[03:18] <doctormo> cprofitt: No, it means you think he needs to gain wisdom... not quite the same absolute.
[03:18] <cprofitt> I also understand that maturity is not always connected with age
[03:18] <cprofitt> could be tied up in semantics doctormo
[03:19] <cprofitt> for me maturity and wisdom are very closely related...
[03:19] <pleia2> I think this is the wrong discussion to have right now
[03:19] <doctormo> I actually thought he was quite mature, he didn't vent his fustrations emotionally, he didn't insult anyone or send some moppy message. Fairly adult.
[03:20] <cprofitt> I will cease at pleia2's request and swoody's suggestion as well.
[03:20] <pleia2> I'll try to finish a workflow draft based on discussions earlier and post it to the list
[03:21] <pleia2> hopefully tonight
[03:23] <doctormo> pleia2: I'm thinking we may have a two step process, considering cprofitt's point in the log about using external references, I think that shaping courses and organising classes are one set of goals and the other is writing materials. I wonder if it would be good to section these two off. what i don't want is an undefined mess of uncollaberation where everyone is using their own tools to do things just so we can develop things in
[03:23] <doctormo> moodle. A flexibility here might be bad for structure.
[03:24] <pleia2> doctormo: essentially what we discussed had 3 parts (I'll flesh this out in the email):
[03:24] <pleia2> A) Collaborative discussion and outlining on the wiki
[03:24] <doctormo> pleia2: wonderful, I look forward to it.
[03:25] <pleia2> B) Further development and fleshing out in bzr+asciidoc for documents that can then be used as core materialfor live classes, irc and moodle
[03:25] <pleia2> C) Putting said material from B into those formats - live classes, irc, moodle
[03:25] <pleia2> now, the issue that is upsetting people is ease of contribution
[03:26] <pleia2> so we want to allow for someone to give an IRC session from material outlined in the wiki, but maybe they don't want to/don't have the time to formally put it in asciidoc - they're too busy being a brilliant kernel hacker
[03:27] <pleia2> same goes for someone who may want to do development in moodle, or just give us notes from a real life class they gave
[03:27] <pleia2> it's all very valuable stuff, so even if they skip step B, it can be our job to collect these great resources and put them into asciidoc
[03:28] <pleia2> but I think we want to make it clear that our process is A, B, C - and that method is the best for the project and will gain most collaboration and usefulness
[03:28] <doctormo> Seems very well thought out.
[03:28] <pleia2> if you choose to directly go from A to C, we'll allow it because we want to see good material come in and the project grow, but it's not the ideal in the perfect world
[03:29] <cprofitt> I also want to understand how a Moodle course will benefit from asciidocs -- at this point I do not understand it
[03:29] <cprofitt> I see how an in-person format does
[03:29] <cprofitt> and how it allows us flexibility
[03:30] <pleia2> it's taking the vague wiki outline of A and putting it into something more professional, that can be exported as .html and imported into moodle
[03:31] <cprofitt> but in some cases the material in the asciidoc might just be no more than an outline - and links; right?
[03:31] <pleia2> in some cases, yes
[03:32] <cprofitt> so in some cases the asciidoc will not be sufficient to really produce an in-person course
[03:32] <cprofitt> because there will be no content there...
[03:32] <pleia2> the instructor is given links to the material
[03:32] <cprofitt> in that case the 'linked' material will have to be printed as well
[03:32] <pleia2> it's "there"
[03:33] <pleia2> there is hardly a difference between printing a wiki page and copying the wiki page into an asciidoc and printing it
[03:33] <pleia2> this is where C comes in, each group will need to mold the material for their needs
[03:35] <cprofitt> but we would not just copy it... that would be what the off-line course writer would do - right?
[03:35] <pleia2> we never just copy the wiki page
[03:35] <cprofitt> k
[03:36] <pleia2> I think that's something the offline course writer will have to determine, how best to ship wiki pages with courses
[03:36] <pleia2> er, offline course writer team
[03:37] <doctormo> I think there is a real discussion about how self contained courses ort to be,
[03:37] <doctormo> I didn't like writing a course which referenced material as a part of the core learning objectives, I always considered links to be extras, learn more, extra credit.
[03:38] <cprofitt> doctormo, in our original charter -- we wanted to work with existing teams and existing content
[03:38] <doctormo> We do, and that is
[03:38] <cprofitt> that is why the idea, at least for me, is to not replicate wiki pages
[03:38] <doctormo> Some of this material is not documentation, some of it is has ended up in other projects because of a lack of a format course writing project.
[03:38] <cprofitt> but have them refer to them as reading material...
[03:39] <cprofitt> and then add value to that by developing exercises... and putting together a series of wiki pages to make a meaningful course
[03:39] <doctormo> We shouldn't think that the wiki page is the correct place for all materials just because it was written there first, it may be that we need to talk with the authors and consider it more carefully.
[03:39] <cprofitt> so I would not include that material in my Moodle course or in an asciidoc
[03:39] <cprofitt> I am not saying it is a correct place for 'all' materials
[03:39] <cprofitt> just that if one exists then we should use it
[03:40] <cprofitt> and not feel as though we need to reproduced it
[03:40] <doctormo> Perhaps we do anyway,
[03:40] <pleia2> maybe discussing actual examples would be a better approach
[03:40] <doctormo> Wiki pages are often wirtten in a way that seems to be different in format and pacing to learning materials.
[03:41] <pleia2> and do this at a meeting later
[03:41] <pleia2> cprofitt: maybe you flesh out some moodle stuff with how you'll be incorporating wiki links into coursework?
[03:41] <cprofitt> that is what I made those two pages for pleia2
[03:41] <pleia2> doctormo: maybe you show some examples where wiki pages are written as reference material and are not suitable for learning?
[03:42] <cprofitt> I was having problems explaining it... so wanted to create an actual reference course or two
[03:42] <pleia2> then we come back and collaborate
[03:42] <pleia2> cprofitt: yeah, I think that's what we want to do
[03:42] <cprofitt> I really think some of this is being lost in a lack of understanding... and concrete examples would help
[03:42]  * pleia2 nods
[03:44] <doctormo> Example1, documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LDAPAuthentication
[03:44] <pleia2> doctormo: can we do this later, when you both have examples prepared?
[03:45] <pleia2> otherwise this discussion ends up kinda one-sided
[03:45] <doctormo> pleia2: I didn't think this was a contest of some kind, I figured It's just for clairty.
[03:45] <pleia2> doctormo: well, I'm backing off for the evening
[03:46] <doctormo> Aye ok, I think this day has runit's course and it's not produced much.
[06:42] <doctormo> Hey BiosElement
[06:42] <doctormo> Did you hear I spend the weekend at the Gnome Summit at MIT?
[07:10] <doctormo> There was a guy at the Gnome Summit who was very interested in what we're doing
[07:10] <doctormo> I think he works for Sun, but does stuff on Gnome
[07:10] <doctormo> He does accessability
[07:11] <doctormo> So he was wondering if since we make courses for Ubuntu, some of them would be useful to gnome. And thus might be ready in a position to be made accessable.
[17:40] <Brady> italian?
[17:40] <pleia2> english
[17:40] <pleia2> #ubuntu-it ?
[17:40] <Brady> yes  ubuntu
[17:41] <Brady> only english?
[17:42] <ibuclaw> Brady, you mean what languages ubuntu is in?
[17:42] <ibuclaw> afaik, it's a good 42+
[17:42] <ibuclaw> from Africaan to Zulu
[17:46] <Brady> or a problem with the use of the terminal, when I write in terminal sudo asking for the password but does not make me
[17:46] <Brady> exscusme for my english but i usit the traslation tools of firefox
[17:47] <pleia2> Brady: try asking in #ubuntu-it
[17:47] <Brady> ok thanks
[17:50] <swoody> Good morning everyone :)
[17:51] <pleia2> g'day swoody
[17:52] <swoody> g'day to you too pleia2 :)
[17:52] <swoody> how're you doing today?
[17:53] <doctormo> Hey swoody
[17:53] <pleia2> swoody: good! you?
[17:54]  * doctormo congratulates pleia2 on negotiating a peace treaty last night.
[17:54] <swoody> hello doctormo :)
[17:54] <swoody> pleia2, oh, I can't complain.... wait, yes I can - no coffee yet :(
[17:55] <pleia2> doctormo: thanks, I hope it works out (do I get a pre-emptive nobel now?)
[17:55] <pleia2> swoody: oh! coffee is very important
[17:56] <doctormo> pleia2: Harmony first, nobel peace prize later
[17:56] <swoody> pleia2, indeed :)
[17:57] <swoody> doctormo, so how's your day treating you?
[17:57] <doctormo> It's not been treating me very long actually, and even then the treat has dark chocolate with nuts in it, and I hate nuts.
[18:03] <swoody> doctormo, well the dark chocolate sounds great though :)