| LaserJock | hmm | 02:30 |
|---|---|---|
| LaserJock | I just got an email from somebody wanting to get teacher training for Edubuntu | 02:30 |
| greeneggsnospam | heh | 02:57 |
| LaserJock | I've gotten quite a rash of people asking for help/info | 03:07 |
| === greeneggsnospam is now known as jsgotangco | ||
| jsgotangco | LaserJock: same as well, i get emails complaining about the wiki and manuals | 03:07 |
| LaserJock | oh? | 03:08 |
| mhall119 | you know, JBoss got started as a business because people wanted training on it, and the guy who wrote it just started holding training | 03:08 |
| mhall119 | just saying | 03:08 |
| LaserJock | I don't get so many of those | 03:08 |
| LaserJock | right | 03:08 |
| LaserJock | I just don't know what to do with it | 03:08 |
| jsgotangco | LaserJock: i could update the manual though | 03:08 |
| jsgotangco | but it would take a while | 03:08 |
| LaserJock | I'd like to shove it Canonical's way and say "hey, people want some training" | 03:08 |
| jsgotangco | and i probably won't touch anything i don't know (like ltsp) | 03:09 |
| LaserJock | dinda might have some thoughts | 03:09 |
| jsgotangco | i kind of average like 500 words a day in technical writing lately so it shouldn't take that much to update it for next release | 03:09 |
| jsgotangco | i wouldn't commit to anything for this release though | 03:10 |
| LaserJock | I do wish people would step up and work on docs in general | 03:14 |
| LaserJock | it's got a fairly low barrier to entry | 03:14 |
| jsgotangco | are you going to UDS? | 03:14 |
| LaserJock | nope | 03:15 |
| LaserJock | have to work unfortunately | 03:15 |
| jsgotangco | i have a question though | 03:15 |
| LaserJock | but I am going to the LTSP hackfest at the end of the month | 03:15 |
| jsgotangco | after this release | 03:15 |
| jsgotangco | what's the roadmap? | 03:15 |
| LaserJock | good question | 03:16 |
| LaserJock | I think it's going to depend quite a bit on where people step up | 03:17 |
| LaserJock | I know I'm a broken record, but I can't keep this up really | 03:17 |
| jsgotangco | yeah | 03:17 |
| LaserJock | for Karmic we succeeded in creating a DVD | 03:17 |
| LaserJock | that's awesome | 03:17 |
| LaserJock | sbalneav also fixed sabayon, big win there | 03:17 |
| jsgotangco | let's be slackware then :) | 03:18 |
| LaserJock | but beyond that I'm not sure where we've moved forward much | 03:18 |
| LaserJock | so I have a decent Roadmap in my mind for Edubuntu | 03:18 |
| jsgotangco | that's probably a good start | 03:18 |
| LaserJock | but it involves more people than just me implementing it | 03:18 |
| jsgotangco | do you have it in a wiki? | 03:19 |
| jsgotangco | or a brainstorming wiki for starters | 03:19 |
| LaserJock | well, we've had bits here and there | 03:19 |
| nixternal | LaserJock: aren't the LTSP hackfests right there in boston? | 03:19 |
| LaserJock | Maine | 03:19 |
| nixternal | whoa, you even got jerome in here talking | 03:19 |
| nixternal | I will be in Maine next week to start my bike trip | 03:20 |
| jsgotangco | nixternal: its just 10:20am here so I am active at this time | 03:20 |
| LaserJock | jsgotangco: the problem seems to be not so much in the creating of plans but the implementation | 03:20 |
| nixternal | I don't care what time it is, I am never active | 03:20 |
| jsgotangco | LaserJock: i a gree | 03:20 |
| LaserJock | once I start talking about plans then it seems like things derail a bit | 03:20 |
| jsgotangco | LaserJock: although if we are successful in some ways for this release | 03:20 |
| jsgotangco | maybe we could "freeze" that and fix the other stuff | 03:20 |
| LaserJock | people all have a different idea of what Edubuntu is or should be, etc. | 03:21 |
| jsgotangco | considering there isn't a lot of manpower | 03:21 |
| LaserJock | well, there's just a heck of a lot that needs to be done | 03:21 |
| jsgotangco | it never ends | 03:21 |
| LaserJock | even just on the packaging/installer level, not counting things like docs, the website, etc. | 03:22 |
| jsgotangco | LaserJock: but since the UI doesn't change much or is just dependent on Gnome doc updates won't take a big chunk of work which I am committing for next | 03:23 |
| jsgotangco | LaserJock: honestly we need a pm | 03:23 |
| LaserJock | jsgotangco: I'm somewhat of a mind to just have everybody create their own roadmap | 03:23 |
| pacifica | Hi there.... I'm having some difficulties with LTSP / USB sticks - anyone here who knows a bit about that? | 03:24 |
| LaserJock | then put them all together and stick it on the wiki somewhere | 03:24 |
| LaserJock | pacifica: you might want to try #ltsp | 03:24 |
| jsgotangco | LaserJock: then let's do a virtual sprint just to identify though | 03:24 |
| LaserJock | jsgotangco: as in project manager? | 03:24 |
| jsgotangco | yes | 03:24 |
| pacifica | (nobody home in #ltsp) | 03:25 |
| jsgotangco | you can't promise 100 people their 100 requests | 03:25 |
| LaserJock | jsgotangco: no | 03:25 |
| LaserJock | jsgotangco: I was really hoping Canonical could spring for a project manager | 03:25 |
| jsgotangco | so let's list them down and prioritize | 03:25 |
| LaserJock | I was hoping 1/2 time project manager 1/2 project engineer | 03:25 |
| jsgotangco | well if in the extreme case | 03:26 |
| jsgotangco | you can start forking the whole project and still use LP, etc. | 03:26 |
| LaserJock | we don't need that | 03:28 |
| LaserJock | we just need somebody with time | 03:28 |
| LaserJock | I could do pm if I had ~4hrs/day to devote to it | 03:28 |
| jsgotangco | like i said its in the extreme case that this is still gennting snubbed at | 03:28 |
| jsgotangco | getting | 03:28 |
| LaserJock | so far Canonical has just left us alone | 03:29 |
| LaserJock | they don't seem anti-Edubuntu, the're just not putting any people towards it | 03:29 |
| LaserJock | *they're | 03:29 |
| jsgotangco | well i don't see the point of you putting so much effort into something they don't care enough | 03:30 |
| LaserJock | well, whether Canonical cares or not shouldn't matter in the end should it? | 03:32 |
| LaserJock | Edubuntu is for its users more than for Canonical I'd think | 03:32 |
| jsgotangco | it does | 03:32 |
| jsgotangco | they still ride on to your effort without doing anything | 03:32 |
| LaserJock | I don't know that they are riding on it though | 03:32 |
| jsgotangco | they still get word of mouth | 03:33 |
| LaserJock | I believe they've stopped selling support for it | 03:33 |
| LaserJock | I suppose, but probably less than other Ubuntu derivatives | 03:33 |
| LaserJock | they're still giving us a fair amount of support | 03:33 |
| LaserJock | just not people | 03:33 |
| LaserJock | I still get to have cjwatson figure out the .iso building, that's a great help | 03:34 |
| LaserJock | in any case | 03:35 |
| jsgotangco | don't get me wrong its just my opinion like I said I would commit to the next release | 03:35 |
| LaserJock | it is what it is | 03:35 |
| jsgotangco | of we stick to DVD then let's stick to that for next | 03:36 |
| LaserJock | Mark and the Canonical executives get to determine where they put their money | 03:36 |
| LaserJock | and we just have to deal with it | 03:36 |
| jsgotangco | oh im aware its a business (i run one myself) | 03:36 |
| LaserJock | jsgotangco: so how do you run a successful project when nobody has full time (or really even part-time) effort? | 03:39 |
| jsgotangco | it depends on how you measure your goals | 03:40 |
| jsgotangco | if your issue is manpower then you shouldn't offer too much on the table | 03:40 |
| jsgotangco | nobody complained about slackware being maintained by 1 person | 03:41 |
| LaserJock | sure, but that 1 person did a whole lot | 03:44 |
| jsgotangco | how do you think the ubuntustudio folks manage? is there an active community behind it? | 03:47 |
| LaserJock | sorta | 03:47 |
| LaserJock | I think they're sort of in a similar situation | 03:47 |
| LaserJock | either you have 1 strong person that can keep everything together or things just seem to fall apart | 03:48 |
| jsgotangco | are you comfortable with that position of a strong man? | 03:49 |
| jsgotangco | strong man of the project rather | 03:49 |
| LaserJock | I don't have time for it no | 03:50 |
| jsgotangco | ok let's change the topic towards this release | 03:51 |
| jsgotangco | since we have a dvd in the works and we're confident of a release | 03:51 |
| jsgotangco | does it make sense to stick to that release and not introduce anything spectacular for next and istead focus on community building again | 03:52 |
| LaserJock | I think we have to do more | 03:53 |
| LaserJock | we've got a DVD, but barely | 03:53 |
| jsgotangco | do more feature wise? | 03:53 |
| LaserJock | well, somewhat | 03:53 |
| LaserJock | more fixing things so they are done properly | 03:53 |
| LaserJock | right now I'm removing all gdm theming from our artwork package | 03:54 |
| LaserJock | because GDM has changed and I don't have time to figure out how to make a proper theme for it | 03:54 |
| jsgotangco | so its more of integrating bits and pieces already set in place to have coherence and consistency rather than introducing a different way | 03:54 |
| LaserJock | yeah, I would say more so | 03:54 |
| LaserJock | definitely that should be the priority, IMO | 03:55 |
| LaserJock | there are things like Sugar, Qimo, and some cool telepathy stuff nubae has been working on that I'd love to see included | 03:55 |
| LaserJock | but we need to get the basics down first, IMO | 03:55 |
| jsgotangco | we should list them down then and set priorities | 03:57 |
| jsgotangco | so we can tell the community what we can and what we can't and need help | 03:57 |
| jsgotangco | can do / can't do | 03:57 |
| LaserJock | yep | 03:57 |
| jsgotangco | ok for this release (9.10), what do we need to do | 03:58 |
| LaserJock | 1) make sure DVD works (especially text-based installer) | 03:59 |
| LaserJock | 2) update edubuntu-artwork and edubuntu-docs to 9.10 | 03:59 |
| LaserJock | 3) write release notes and release announcement | 03:59 |
| LaserJock | 4) update edubuntu.org with new info | 03:59 |
| LaserJock | I'm working on 1) and 2) presently | 03:59 |
| jsgotangco | okay i'll also do 1) point me to where to download | 04:00 |
| jsgotangco | i can draft 3) | 04:00 |
| jsgotangco | isn't 2) take some work though? | 04:00 |
| LaserJock | 1) http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/dvd/ but wait until the 14th build is done | 04:01 |
| LaserJock | 13th is known bad | 04:01 |
| jsgotangco | okay | 04:01 |
| LaserJock | 2) has taken my entire day almost, yes | 04:01 |
| jsgotangco | shit its a dvd | 04:01 |
| jsgotangco | lol | 04:01 |
| jsgotangco | ill wait for 14 | 04:02 |
| sbalneav | Eveing all | 04:04 |
| LaserJock | hi | 04:04 |
| sbalneav | Hey hey. | 04:05 |
| sbalneav | So, we talking about "what's next"? | 04:05 |
| LaserJock | kinda yeah | 04:06 |
| LaserJock | and how to make the project work | 04:06 |
| LaserJock | I've spent too much time again in the last 2 weeks | 04:08 |
| LaserJock | chasing down problems and trying to get karmic out the door | 04:08 |
| LaserJock | and in the mean time I'm getting quite a few emails about Edubuntu | 04:08 |
| LaserJock | it seems like the user demand is out there | 04:08 |
| sbalneav | Lets do this. You're going to be at the hackfest, yes? | 04:09 |
| sbalneav | teach me packaging. | 04:09 |
| sbalneav | I'm so *very* limited in what I can do. I understand the upstream stuff, but the packaging I'm lost with. | 04:09 |
| sbalneav | I feel I could make more of a difference if I knew what I was doing. | 04:10 |
| LaserJock | right | 04:12 |
| LaserJock | so 2 things I want to do during hackfest | 04:12 |
| LaserJock | 1) write down everything I think needs to be done for Edubuntu 1.04 and what I'm willing to do | 04:13 |
| LaserJock | 2) teach sbalneav how to package | 04:13 |
| jsgotangco | sbalneav: so i was proposing that whatever gets released for this month, we don't apply radical changes for next and focus on cohesion and consistency | 04:13 |
| LaserJock | I'm a tad concerned that people will lose interest if we don't have something new to give them | 04:13 |
| LaserJock | we haven't done much radically new in a year or so | 04:14 |
| jsgotangco | im more concred if what you give to them isn't stable for long term use | 04:14 |
| LaserJock | this release we moved from add-on to DVD, but it's still the same apps | 04:14 |
| LaserJock | gotta take dog for walk, bbiab | 04:14 |
| jsgotangco | ok | 04:16 |
| sbalneav | jsgotangco: I'd tend to agree. I think if we give people a SOLID product, with most of the bugs beaten out of it, with a GOOD handbook, that'd be a winner. | 04:16 |
| sbalneav | Obviously, we can't do much about base ubuntu: whatever bling gets put in there, is what we'll get by default. | 04:18 |
| jsgotangco | yeah | 04:29 |
| jsgotangco | i tend to stick to the mindset that edubuntu users aren't that much interested on 6 month release cycle changes | 04:30 |
| LaserJock | sbalneav: note that now that we're a DVD we don't necessarily have to stick to Ubuntu | 04:31 |
| jsgotangco | yes! let's use enlightenment then! lol | 04:31 |
| jsgotangco | kidding | 04:32 |
| jsgotangco | :D | 04:32 |
| sbalneav | Stick to Ubuntu's release cycle, you mean? | 04:37 |
| LaserJock | sbalneav: no, I mean stick to Ubuntu's apps | 04:55 |
| LaserJock | we're more stuck with Ubuntu's release cycle | 04:55 |
| jsgotangco | does it make sense we won't stick to the next cycle and focus on improvements to 9.10? | 04:57 |
| LaserJock | well, 10.04 is a LTS | 04:59 |
| LaserJock | seems like a good time to me | 04:59 |
| sbalneav | Well, I was hoping we'd get THIS one out the door as the "preview", and really hammer down for 10.04, which should be an LTS release. | 04:59 |
| LaserJock | right | 05:00 |
| LaserJock | but we more-or-less have to release every 6 months | 05:00 |
| LaserJock | we can call it whatever we like | 05:00 |
| sbalneav | Do we "have" to? | 05:01 |
| LaserJock | basically | 05:01 |
| jsgotangco | i agree with sbalneav though | 05:01 |
| sbalneav | hm. | 05:01 |
| LaserJock | our packages are going to get re-synced every 6 months | 05:01 |
| LaserJock | things need to be maintained | 05:01 |
| LaserJock | I would call the non-LTS releases maintenance releases | 05:01 |
| sbalneav | ok, but we target any "big features" we want only for LTS releases. | 05:01 |
| LaserJock | sure | 05:02 |
| LaserJock | we're free to target however we want | 05:02 |
| LaserJock | and like I said, we're free to call the releases whatever we need to | 05:02 |
| LaserJock | but we do need to actually "release", IMO | 05:02 |
| sbalneav | ok | 05:02 |
| LaserJock | we could call them Development Previews or something | 05:03 |
| jsgotangco | what if we stick to LTS | 05:04 |
| LaserJock | but part of the problem is that the "big" features" often take more than 1 release | 05:04 |
| LaserJock | 1 release to plan | 05:04 |
| LaserJock | 1 release to implement first round | 05:04 |
| LaserJock | 1 release to polish | 05:04 |
| LaserJock | if I had my way the way we'd do releases would be the following (I think): | 05:04 |
| LaserJock | LTS (our primary release) | 05:05 |
| LaserJock | LTS+1 is maintenance, catch all the bugs we missed | 05:05 |
| LaserJock | LTS+2 start the new features | 05:05 |
| LaserJock | LTS+3 get things more-or-less in place | 05:05 |
| LaserJock | LTS+4 = LTS | 05:05 |
| sbalneav | LaserJock+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ | 05:06 |
| jsgotangco | I agree | 05:06 |
| sbalneav | ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ | 05:06 |
| sbalneav | ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ | 05:06 |
| jsgotangco | we stick to LTS | 05:06 |
| sbalneav | How can you tell I like this idea. | 05:06 |
| sbalneav | Document this NOW. | 05:06 |
| LaserJock | lol | 05:07 |
| LaserJock | I think I could even get it down to a general TODO or checklist for each one of those | 05:08 |
| jsgotangco | you get LTS updates along the way | 05:08 |
| jsgotangco | and piggyback with a stable release | 05:08 |
| LaserJock | ok, I need to get to bed | 05:09 |
| sbalneav | k | 05:09 |
| LaserJock | let me think about it some and write up a proposal of sorts | 05:09 |
| LaserJock | outlining a bit more what each of those stages would entail | 05:09 |
| LaserJock | I got edubuntu-artwork uploaded | 05:10 |
| LaserJock | edubuntu-docs is tomorrow and I hope we're done for uploads | 05:10 |
| LaserJock | g'night everybody | 05:10 |
| jsgotangco | later | 05:10 |
| jsgotangco | good chat | 05:10 |
| jbicha | I think I'd like to learn packaging also if someone has the time and there's a need | 12:24 |
| sbalneav | Morning all | 14:40 |
| jbicha | good morning | 14:42 |
| jbicha | I'd like to help with edubuntu; is there a list of things that needs done? | 15:03 |
| sbalneav | Well, you can always start by fixing bugs. | 15:05 |
| jbicha | I don't think I know enough programming for that yet | 15:06 |
| sbalneav | Hold on, I'll get you the URL with the list of package bugs. | 15:06 |
| sbalneav | ok | 15:06 |
| sbalneav | Well, what skills do you have? | 15:06 |
| jbicha | packaging or documentation sound interesting | 15:08 |
| sbalneav | Well, packaging requires programming. | 15:08 |
| sbalneav | As for documentation, you could help with the wiki, or contribute to the handbook | 15:08 |
| sbalneav | Do you know DocBook XML? | 15:08 |
| jbicha | no, but it's not that difficult, is it? | 15:09 |
| sbalneav | https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~edubuntu-bugs/+packagebugs | 15:09 |
| sbalneav | Probably the best bet would be to start in on the wiki, then. | 15:10 |
| jbicha | I need a little more direction on the wiki; I know MediaWiki syntax but what needs done? and who else is working on the wiki? | 15:12 |
| sbalneav | have a look at the edubuntu-users mailing list, I beleive we have a wiki-day coming up where interested people can kick in... | 15:15 |
| sbalneav | one sec, I'll get you the link. | 15:15 |
| sbalneav | At the moment, I believe no-one's working on the wiki. | 15:16 |
| sbalneav | https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-users/2009-October/005698.html | 15:17 |
| jbicha | is https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ used or is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ the only wiki? | 15:18 |
| sbalneav | Not sure, I don't have much to do with the wiki. I tend to plug away on the handbook, and do bug fixing. | 15:19 |
| sbalneav | Probably contact highvoltage. He should be able to point you in the right direction. | 15:20 |
| jbicha | thanks | 15:20 |
| LaserJock | sbalneav: you realize that the fatal flaw with our plan is if Ubuntu LTS+1 is a total mess | 15:28 |
| alkisg | Won't edubuntu be aligned only with lts releases from now on? | 15:31 |
| LaserJock | alkisg: here was our plan from last night: | 15:32 |
| LaserJock | LTS (our primary release) | 15:32 |
| LaserJock | LTS+1 is maintenance, catch all the bugs we missed | 15:32 |
| LaserJock | LTS+2 start the new features | 15:32 |
| LaserJock | LTS+3 get things more-or-less in place | 15:32 |
| LaserJock | LTS+4 = LTS | 15:32 |
| LaserJock | now that seems like a good plan but Ubuntu is shifting underneath us every release | 15:33 |
| LaserJock | so my concern would be if Ubuntu had a not-so-good release for LTS+1 due to heavy feature development | 15:34 |
| LaserJock | while we're trying to do a maintenance type release | 15:34 |
| alkisg | I think most "new features" were put in 9.10, weren't they? | 15:35 |
| LaserJock | I'm not sure | 15:35 |
| LaserJock | 8.10 would be a LTS+1 | 15:35 |
| LaserJock | I don't remember it being spectacular | 15:36 |
| LaserJock | probably not bad | 15:36 |
| alkisg | Doesn't that depend on upstream features? | 15:36 |
| alkisg | E.g. new xorg features, new kernel features etc? | 15:36 |
| LaserJock | a fair amount yes | 15:36 |
| LaserJock | but then Ubuntu, to some degree, picks and chooses what versions to use | 15:36 |
| LaserJock | for an LTS+1 they might be more adventurous :-) | 15:37 |
| * alkisg thinks edubuntu lacks more features than stability right now... :) | 15:37 | |
| LaserJock | I don't know | 15:37 |
| LaserJock | we really haven't tested it thoroughly | 15:37 |
| LaserJock | in the past it's been pretty bug-ridden | 15:37 |
| alkisg | Sure, but we don't really have much to offer that ubuntu doesn't already offer... that's what I mean | 15:38 |
| LaserJock | sabayon completely unusable, gcompris having issues | 15:38 |
| LaserJock | well | 15:38 |
| LaserJock | but now we have a DVD | 15:38 |
| LaserJock | which means we have to consider all the installer issues | 15:38 |
| sbalneav | alkisg: So, I guess the question becomes, what SHOULD we offer, that we dont. | 15:38 |
| LaserJock | for better or worse we're now responsible for the *entire* OS stack | 15:38 |
| alkisg | LaserJock: I understand, I'm not saying that stability isn't important, of course it is. But to attract more people, shouldn't we put down a plan for features? (yeah I know we've been thought that talk many times before...) | 15:39 |
| LaserJock | yes | 15:39 |
| LaserJock | I think we should | 15:40 |
| alkisg | sbalneav: well, as a teacher, I'd like for edubuntu to offer me a simpler way to setup a lab. | 15:40 |
| LaserJock | but maybe not too much until LTS+1 | 15:40 |
| alkisg | LTSP did that; that's why I started with Ubuntu in the first place | 15:40 |
| alkisg | Edubuntu could maybe fill the same need but for standalone installations | 15:40 |
| alkisg | (non-LTSP) | 15:40 |
| sbalneav | Well, define "Simpler way to set up a lab" | 15:40 |
| LaserJock | the other issue is that it takes many more hands to develop features than stabilize an existing set of features | 15:41 |
| sbalneav | What bits do we need that we're missing | 15:41 |
| alkisg | A way to setup packages in all the lab? | 15:41 |
| alkisg | A way to maintain users? | 15:41 |
| alkisg | Shared home folders? | 15:41 |
| alkisg | Something along those lines | 15:41 |
| sbalneav | All of those things are there right now. | 15:42 |
| alkisg | sbalneav, not for the teacher :( | 15:42 |
| sbalneav | Are you saying you want a CONTROL PANEL to do those things? | 15:42 |
| alkisg | They're there only for the experienced admin | 15:42 |
| sbalneav | We have to be specific about what we want. | 15:42 |
| sbalneav | "a way to maintain users" is pretty vague. :) | 15:43 |
| LaserJock | what I would simply *love* to see is 1) a list of the tasks and features that are needed for a school lab and 2) a list of the tasks and features that a home user (parent) needs | 15:43 |
| sbalneav | LaserJock++ | 15:43 |
| sbalneav | right. | 15:43 |
| LaserJock | then we can match up how we're doing against the list | 15:43 |
| LaserJock | and try to fill in the gaps | 15:43 |
| LaserJock | but it's really hard to go on "make it easier" | 15:44 |
| LaserJock | partially because I'm not a teacher | 15:44 |
| alkisg | sbalneav: sure, it's vague. As a teacher, I don't know what the best way is for me to keep a list of e.g. 200 student accounts. | 15:44 |
| LaserJock | so I can only guess (thought I think I can make reasonable guesses) | 15:44 |
| alkisg | I'd like edubuntu to give me 1 solution for that; I don't know if it would be ldap/nfs or some other formula | 15:44 |
| LaserJock | right, see, I'd like to see the actual tasks | 15:45 |
| LaserJock | then we can work on the technologies needed to do it | 15:45 |
| sbalneav | alkisg: Sure, but you can probably give us an idea as to what it would look like. | 15:45 |
| alkisg | sbalneav: ok, for this specific part, here are my tech-side thoughts: | 15:45 |
| sbalneav | Or, what you'd LIKE it to look like. | 15:45 |
| alkisg | First, I thought about ldap/nfs. Then I thought that this would be really really difficult for a teacher to maintain | 15:45 |
| alkisg | Then, I thought about libpam-sshfs etc. This could easily work | 15:46 |
| alkisg | Now I'm thinking that may a "virtual-users" solution would be even easier (that needs a lot of explaining) | 15:46 |
| alkisg | (~= 1 user per PC, and the home folder mounted by sshfs) | 15:46 |
| alkisg | Now, as a teacher I wouldn't even care which of those solutions would be offered to me by edubuntu | 15:47 |
| alkisg | As long as it worked, and I could handle it, I wouldn't mind what it was called... | 15:47 |
| LaserJock | right | 15:48 |
| LaserJock | so if we had a list of tasks | 15:48 |
| LaserJock | which would could review current solutions for | 15:48 |
| LaserJock | assigning some level of "usability" | 15:48 |
| jbicha | a roadmap | 15:48 |
| sbalneav | Of all of those, the LDAP/NFS would be the EASIEST to maintain, as they simply require some meta packages. | 15:48 |
| LaserJock | we can then assess what areas need help or maybe there are some low-hanging-fruit | 15:48 |
| alkisg | I think that can be arranged, couldn't it? E.g. ask people to fill in the tasks that they'd like to see implemented in a wiki | 15:49 |
| sbalneav | LaserJock: Don't we have a "Desired Features" page somewhere? | 15:49 |
| LaserJock | probably, I don't know where | 15:49 |
| LaserJock | that's what I wanted to have the wiki cleanup for .... | 15:49 |
| alkisg | sbalneav: e.g. for ldap/nfs the teacher is going to ask: how do I add new users? | 15:51 |
| alkisg | If you tell him to create text files and run import commands, well, I think you lost him :) | 15:51 |
| LaserJock | couldn't we just throw a GUI on that? | 15:51 |
| sbalneav | alkisg: My first question is: are teachers allowed to/supposed to add users? | 15:52 |
| alkisg | Well, if edubuntu came with nfs/ldap integration and a gui, then I know many many teachers that would prefer it ! | 15:52 |
| sbalneav | How do you maintain standards? Don't school tech staff do this? | 15:52 |
| alkisg | sbalneav: yes, in most small schools the computer teacher is also the admin | 15:52 |
| alkisg | E.g. only a handful of schools here in greece are large enough to have tech staff | 15:52 |
| sbalneav | Ok, so it's just ONE teacher who does this, not every teacher in the school adding users willy-nilly. | 15:53 |
| alkisg | Yes | 15:53 |
| alkisg | At least here it's the teacher that "owns" the lab - other teacher may teach in that lab, but they don't have administration rights | 15:54 |
| sbalneav | As for a gui, I've already started work on a Python GUI for adding LDAP users. And I have scripts for setting up standardized LDAP servers, and scripts for setting up NFS servers, etc. | 15:54 |
| alkisg | sbalneav: well, if you managed to add those to edubuntu, I think teachers would have a great reason to prefer it to plain ubuntu | 15:54 |
| sbalneav | The problem is, for me, as always, packaging. However, LaserJock and I will be together in Maine next week, so I'm going to hopefully get all this answered. | 15:55 |
| sbalneav | I got Sabayon going for this go-round, for next go round, I want to create a: | 15:55 |
| sbalneav | edubuntu-ldap-server package, that creates a "standard" ldap server. | 15:55 |
| sbalneav | edubuntu-ldap-client package that is installed on ldap client machines. | 15:56 |
| sbalneav | edubuntu-nfs-server package, that creates a "standard" NFS server | 15:56 |
| sbalneav | edubuntu-nfs-client package, self explanatory. | 15:56 |
| sbalneav | and an edubuntu-ldap-guitools for the used/group program. | 15:57 |
| sbalneav | THEN | 15:57 |
| alkisg | That'd be perfect for the user administration problem :) | 15:57 |
| sbalneav | in the installer part of the DVD we could have a question: | 15:57 |
| sbalneav | "Do you want this to be a <whatever we call it> CLient, or server? | 15:58 |
| sbalneav | If you pick "server" then you get the ldap and NFS server packages installed. | 15:58 |
| * alkisg would also add a question for a standalone, home user pc | 15:58 | |
| sbalneav | if it's a client, then it asks the hostname/ip of a server, and boom, you get shared home dirs and LDAP. | 15:58 |
| sbalneav | Well you need 3 choices. | 15:59 |
| sbalneav | Server, Client or Standalone | 15:59 |
| alkisg | sbalneav: that's exactly the choices I was describing for my "eduubuntu remix" :) Perfect match! | 15:59 |
| sbalneav | Now, all the actual PROGRAMMING bits to make this work, I've got in the bag. | 15:59 |
| sbalneav | how the heck we pull this off PACKAGING wise, I dunno. | 16:00 |
| sbalneav | f'rinstance. | 16:00 |
| sbalneav | Setting up an "edubuntu-ldap-server" package would require: | 16:00 |
| sbalneav | installing open-ldap | 16:00 |
| alkisg | Also, we could e.g. install italc-master in the server, and italc-client in the clients; or squid server on the server, and automatically configure the clients with wap; etc | 16:01 |
| sbalneav | then buggering about with files in /etc to create a pre-configured "out of the box" LDAP schema. | 16:01 |
| sbalneav | but, according to what I've been able to glean, packaged are NOT supposed to bugger with stuff in /etc. | 16:01 |
| alkisg | Right. I hope LaserJock can help with those, he's the most experienced with packaging amongst us | 16:01 |
| sbalneav | so how we accomplish that, I dunno :) | 16:02 |
| alkisg | sbalneav: I think you can create symlinks to /var, and dynamically create configuration files there | 16:02 |
| alkisg | (at least I think what vagrantc once proposed to me) | 16:02 |
| sbalneav | that's where I fall apart. | 16:02 |
| sbalneav | that's the bits I don't know. | 16:02 |
| jbicha | some type of edubuntu-default-settings could be packaged separately than the more vanilla package | 16:03 |
| * alkisg last year got a set of scripts to automatically setup LTSP labs the way we want them. This year I'd like to automate the installation of an non-LTSP lab. From the next year I'd like to push as much of these methods/scripts as I can upstream. | 16:03 | |
| sbalneav | Help me Obi-Wan-LaserJock, you're my only hope :) | 16:03 |
| * sbalneav straps cinnamon rolls to his head | 16:03 | |
| LaserJock | lol | 16:07 |
| LaserJock | how does LTSP fit in the scheme of things regarding Sever, Client, Standalone? | 16:07 |
| LaserJock | is that a 4th option? | 16:07 |
| alkisg | Well, it's completely different, sure | 16:08 |
| alkisg | It doesn't need nfs, nor ldap | 16:09 |
| alkisg | I'm not even sure if classrooms using LTSP should be a target group for edubuntu anymore, now that ltsp is part of plain ubuntu | 16:09 |
| alkisg | I.e. they should be able to setup a lab with an ubuntu+ltsp installation, and an edubuntu-educational-packages installation on top of that | 16:10 |
| alkisg | They only setup a single computer after all, it doesn't take as much time as an entire classroom, they can affort to install things after the initial installation | 16:10 |
| sbalneav | Probably this is a tasksel thing we could pop up | 16:10 |
| sbalneav | like ubuntu-server does. | 16:11 |
| sbalneav | With tickoff's for: | 16:11 |
| sbalneav | LTSP server | 16:11 |
| sbalneav | Edubuntu LDAP server | 16:11 |
| sbalneav | Edubuntu NFS server | 16:11 |
| sbalneav | etc. | 16:11 |
| alkisg | LaserJock: can a tasksel create arbitrary /etc/configuration files? | 16:12 |
| alkisg | (I'm thinking that my set of scripts worked just fine for dozens of teachers... maybe scripts are also the way to go here, bundled in a nice gui) | 16:13 |
| LaserJock | well | 16:15 |
| LaserJock | it depends on the actual program more than the packaging | 16:16 |
| LaserJock | for instance apache is set up so that other packages can just drop in config files | 16:16 |
| LaserJock | the packaging rule is that no more than 1 package can "own" a file | 16:17 |
| LaserJock | and a package is not supposed to mess around with files that are owned by another package | 16:17 |
| LaserJock | as far as LTSP goes | 16:20 |
| alkisg | E.g. if the Edubuntu NFS server package wanted to add some *entries* to /etc/exports, how would it do that? | 16:21 |
| LaserJock | can a script be called to update it for you? | 16:21 |
| alkisg | Yes, of course, a postinst script, but is that an acceptable method? | 16:21 |
| LaserJock | no, I mean | 16:22 |
| LaserJock | can you run some script with an argument that does the updating | 16:22 |
| alkisg | I'm not sure I understand what you're saying... "you run" => me the user, or me the installation task? | 16:23 |
| LaserJock | whoever | 16:23 |
| LaserJock | ok, here's the way you get around the config file ownership | 16:24 |
| LaserJock | the package that owns the file provides a script to update the file | 16:24 |
| LaserJock | then other packages run that script in postinst with whatever values they want | 16:24 |
| LaserJock | for instance | 16:24 |
| LaserJock | /etc/passwd | 16:24 |
| LaserJock | we don't directly edit it | 16:24 |
| LaserJock | we run adduser and it does it for us | 16:24 |
| LaserJock | so it's perfectly find to run adduser in a postinst | 16:25 |
| LaserJock | *fine | 16:25 |
| alkisg | Here's another example, to make it more clear: if the ltsp installation package modified /etc/dhcpd/dhcp.conf, then when the dhcp3-server package was upgraded, the user would be prompted "do you want to install the new package maintainer version..." etc... | 16:25 |
| alkisg | So if we go ahead and modify files that belong to other packages, the user will be prompted for things he didn't manually edit himself | 16:25 |
| LaserJock | right | 16:26 |
| alkisg | Are we allowed to do that as part of a postinst script? | 16:26 |
| jbicha | will ShipIt be sending out Edubunu DVDs after Karmic is released? | 16:27 |
| LaserJock | jbicha: nope | 16:27 |
| jbicha | so I can take that link off the wiki, right? | 16:27 |
| LaserJock | alkisg: well, what we'd want to do is have some script in dhcp3-server that we could run to update /etc/dhcpd/dhcp.conf | 16:27 |
| LaserJock | jbicha: yep | 16:27 |
| LaserJock | all of this config file stuff can be handled, it's just a matter of how much work it would be "upstream" | 16:28 |
| sbalneav | OK, NFS can be handled with the "exportfs" utility, which allows us to add exports withoud modifying the file. | 16:30 |
| sbalneav | however, LDAP's a problem. | 16:30 |
| sbalneav | there's no "update-ldap-config" program that allows us to make the mods to the ldap programs. | 16:30 |
| LaserJock | right | 16:30 |
| sbalneav | sorry, ldap conf files. | 16:30 |
| LaserJock | so we'd want to coordinate with the Server team | 16:31 |
| LaserJock | and see if one could be added or how they'd recommend we proceed | 16:31 |
| LaserJock | the idea here is that the package that owns the file should know what's going on with it's file | 16:31 |
| LaserJock | also note that it's been a while since I read Policy about the config file thing | 16:32 |
| LaserJock | there could be some things I'm forgetting | 16:32 |
| alkisg | Even if the same package modified its configuration file, wouldn't the user still be prompted on upgrade? | 16:32 |
| LaserJock | depends | 16:33 |
| === highvolt1ge is now known as highvoltage | ||
| LaserJock | we'd need to look at the details I think | 16:33 |
| LaserJock | not all config files are Debian config files :-) | 16:33 |
| alkisg | Right | 16:34 |
| LaserJock | but it *is* possible for other packages to change the configuration | 16:34 |
| LaserJock | apache for example | 16:35 |
| LaserJock | and many others | 16:35 |
| LaserJock | but often it requires modification to the original package, which is why coordination with the team that takes care of that package is needed | 16:35 |
| * alkisg is sorry but he has to leave to get his kids to a cartoon lesson :-/ Thanks a lot guys, that seemed to be just in the right direction for me.. | 16:35 | |
| jbicha | I hate this MoinMoin wiki thing, I think MediaWiki's easier | 17:50 |
| sbalneav | Well, we've got what we've got. | 17:52 |
| LaserJock | I go back and forth on the wikis | 17:54 |
| LaserJock | I'm more used to Moin so I find it easier | 17:54 |
| LaserJock | I think it's also more secure | 17:55 |
| LaserJock | but MediaWiki seems faster and more people know it | 17:55 |
| jbicha | for instance if I wanted to create a draftpage for feedback before changing a page, I'd have to upload all of the images all over again | 18:10 |
| alkisg | Yeah mediawiki has a lot more devs behind it that support it... | 18:13 |
| LaserJock | I think the only thing I like better is that you can edit particular sections | 18:24 |
| jbicha | here's a reorganization of the main wikipage I was working on http://imagebin.org/67787 | 18:50 |
| jbicha | can I just make changes or do I need to get approval first? | 19:00 |
| LaserJock | jbicha: I'm taking a look | 19:02 |
| LaserJock | jbicha: under community what is the "Volunteer" link for? | 19:03 |
| LaserJock | Volunteers rather | 19:03 |
| jbicha | for people who aren't official Edubuntu Members yet | 19:03 |
| jbicha | a place for people to show what they're working on | 19:04 |
| LaserJock | I'd tend to favor ditching the "Volunteers" and putting that in "Teams" maybe | 19:04 |
| jbicha | that could work if we have teams | 19:05 |
| LaserJock | it just makes it look like there are Volunteers and non-Volunteers (i.e. Members, Edubuntu Council, etc.) | 19:05 |
| Lns | ugh..ubuntu wiki is dead slow | 19:05 |
| LaserJock | and everybody is a volunteer | 19:05 |
| jbicha | that would be less confusing with the other use of Volunteer on that page | 19:05 |
| jbicha | ok | 19:05 |
| LaserJock | so I think it's maybe a not great distinction | 19:05 |
| LaserJock | if we wanted a page like that I think Contributors would maybe be a better wording | 19:06 |
| LaserJock | but it seems like people would show off what they're working on on their individual wiki pages and on the relevant team pages | 19:06 |
| jbicha | encourage teamwork | 19:07 |
| LaserJock | I kind of like using Volunteer in in the 3rd column | 19:08 |
| LaserJock | I would maybe change ReportBugs to just Bugs | 19:08 |
| LaserJock | we could discuss both reporting and triaging | 19:08 |
| LaserJock | Suggest is great, we can link that to brainstorm | 19:08 |
| LaserJock | under Help I think the Cookbook is dead, we probably don't want to link to that | 19:09 |
| jbicha | it's a little funny though, things you can do to help out, you can develop, document, or bug the developers | 19:09 |
| LaserJock | About looks great too | 19:09 |
| LaserJock | jbicha: what about Support under Volunteer? | 19:10 |
| LaserJock | jbicha: we could have places that people can help give user support | 19:10 |
| LaserJock | but I'm not sure if that would sort of overlap with Campaign or not | 19:10 |
| jbicha | campaigning and supporting are different | 19:11 |
| LaserJock | maybe "Help" should be "Get Help" | 19:13 |
| LaserJock | as Help could also mean "help out Edubuntu" | 19:13 |
| LaserJock | so maybe be firm with "this is where you go to get help" | 19:13 |
| jbicha | what would supporting by volunteering look like? | 19:23 |
| sbalneav | Cookbook --> Handbook | 19:24 |
| jbicha | is handbook the same thing as your DocBook work? | 19:26 |
| LaserJock | jbicha: well, I think it would be good to have people who volunteer to help out with this channel and the edubuntu-users list giving help to people | 19:27 |
| LaserJock | jbicha: and I want to recognize people who are already doing a stand-up job doing that | 19:27 |
| jbicha | that's good | 19:27 |
| LaserJock | I want to say that it is a legitimate and worthwhile form of contribution to Edubuntu | 19:28 |
| LaserJock | so something like "Hey, volunteer in our support team by trying to answer email questions within 24hrs" | 19:28 |
| LaserJock | or maybe we can have a list of volunteers who are willing to take questions on particular subjects | 19:29 |
| LaserJock | who's a good person to talk to about internationalization, LTSP fat clients, LDAP, edu apps, etc. | 19:29 |
| jbicha | updated version: http://imagebin.org/67797 | 19:36 |
| LaserJock | jbicha: hmm, I just noticed something | 19:41 |
| LaserJock | jbicha: we have the column headers as links | 19:41 |
| LaserJock | I wonder if we really want that | 19:41 |
| LaserJock | it seems to me as if we're listing underneath the headings the actual entry points we want people to go to | 19:42 |
| jbicha | that's how it used to be but it's probably not that useful | 19:42 |
| LaserJock | jbicha: looks great though | 19:43 |
| LaserJock | jbicha: you ready to make that "live"? | 19:44 |
| jbicha | sure | 19:44 |
| LaserJock | awesome | 19:45 |
| jbicha | done, now I just have to fix all the new broken links https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu | 19:45 |
| LaserJock | k | 19:46 |
| LaserJock | I'm working up the edubuntu-docs upload | 19:46 |
| LaserJock | and then I guess I'll be working on the wiki mostly | 19:47 |
| LaserJock | jbicha: are you planning on creating all new pages for all those links? | 20:03 |
| LaserJock | it might be better to "repurpose" existing pages or as a first step link to them | 20:04 |
| jbicha | I've already moved a couple pages | 20:04 |
| jbicha | existing pages are a good headstart | 20:05 |
| LaserJock | we need to be a bit careful about moving pages around | 20:10 |
| LaserJock | especially if the existing pages have had external links to them | 20:10 |
| LaserJock | jbicha: why are you using Document instead of Documentation? | 20:11 |
| jbicha | because I liked verbs | 20:11 |
| LaserJock | hmm | 20:12 |
| LaserJock | I understand where you're coming from on that | 20:13 |
| LaserJock | but it's a bit of a gratuitous move | 20:13 |
| alkisg | (it also points to a non-existing location, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/%5CDocument) | 20:13 |
| alkisg | (I mean the backslash there) | 20:13 |
| jbicha | ok, Documentation is probably a better term, but what if I pipe it with Document so the Volunteer verbs match | 20:14 |
| LaserJock | jbicha: sure | 20:22 |
| Lns | For anyone interested, I just created a howto on creating shared Gnome desktops for users: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/SharedDesktops - any input appreciated | 20:30 |
| LaserJock | jbicha: we generally don't recommend just mass moving wiki pages, especially without much discussion | 20:45 |
| LaserJock | jbicha: are you just moving things to be inline with the front page? | 20:46 |
| jbicha | yes, but I could slow down | 20:47 |
| LaserJock | jbicha: why don't we just link FAQ to the help.ubuntu.com page | 20:47 |
| LaserJock | jbicha: we don't need to have a separate copy I don't think | 20:47 |
| jbicha | I'm confused by the 2 wikis | 20:48 |
| LaserJock | jbicha: ultimately I don't think anything under Get Help should be on wiki.ubuntu.com | 20:48 |
| LaserJock | wiki.ubuntu.com is for development purposes | 20:48 |
| LaserJock | to help developer and contributors organize themselves, etc. | 20:48 |
| LaserJock | a place to put feature specifications, task lists, organize teams, etc. | 20:48 |
| LaserJock | help.ubuntu.com/community is specifically just about end-user documentation, help, and support | 20:49 |
| LaserJock | so FAQ and Guides should maybe point to help.ubuntu.com | 20:49 |
| LaserJock | and Contact and Get Support should link to pages on edubuntu.org | 20:50 |
| LaserJock | that way we don't have to maintain multiple copies of things | 20:50 |
| jbicha | ok, I'll redirect those | 20:50 |
| LaserJock | you don't need to redirect | 20:51 |
| LaserJock | just link | 20:51 |
| LaserJock | or maybe that's what you meant | 20:51 |
| jbicha | the DownloadRedirect was a redirect so I thought that was how it was supposed to be done | 20:52 |
| jbicha | but direct link makes more sense | 20:52 |
| jbicha | a lot of the things under Volunteer are duplicated by the various Teams | 21:09 |
| LaserJock | jbicha: well, that's a good thing | 21:15 |
| LaserJock | but I think perhaps we should maybe do things a bit differently | 21:16 |
| LaserJock | the Edubuntu/Teams page is done using includes | 21:17 |
| LaserJock | so you have to create a wiki page for each team, and then it's all pulled in by the Teams page | 21:17 |
| LaserJock | I think it would work better to have a single Teams page that talks about the relevant teams | 21:18 |
| LaserJock | and then have the Volunteer pages as the concrete "this is how to get involved and contribute" pages | 21:19 |
| LaserJock | or I suppose we could keep the includes (it seems a tad messy to me) but we shouldn't have that many pages | 21:20 |
| LaserJock | it seems like it would be easier to just edit the one page than to mess with a whole sub-hierarchy of them | 21:21 |
| jbicha | the Teams page could be a short description of the various teams on 1 page | 21:25 |
| jbicha | & the Volunteer pages be the actual pages with what's being worked on now, what help is needed, and future goals ? | 21:25 |
| LaserJock | basically | 21:29 |
| jbicha | why were all the pages created with a Edubuntu/WikiSite/ prefix? isn't the WikiSite redundant? | 21:43 |
| LaserJock | well | 21:43 |
| LaserJock | those come from your "predecessor" | 21:44 |
| jbicha | is he gone for good? | 21:44 |
| LaserJock | there was a guy who was working on a wiki cleanup the last couple months | 21:44 |
| jbicha | I read through last month's mailing list earlier | 21:44 |
| LaserJock | and what he was going to do I believe is move everything into Edubuntu/WikiSite/ , get everything arranged, and then go back and remove the /WikiSite/ part | 21:44 |
| LaserJock | well, he said he's gone for good | 21:45 |
| LaserJock | I hope he comes back at some point | 21:45 |
| LaserJock | there are a few useful pages in /WikiSite/ | 21:46 |
| LaserJock | I was hoping we could use it to put stuff that can be used in other wiki pages | 21:46 |
| LaserJock | like images and headers | 21:46 |
| LaserJock | and you could put a SiteMap there too for instance | 21:47 |
| jbicha | thanks for the help; I believe I'm done for today | 22:07 |
| LaserJock | jbicha: thanks for the contribution | 22:09 |
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