LaserJockI just got an email from somebody wanting to get teacher training for Edubuntu02:30
LaserJockI've gotten quite a rash of people asking for help/info03:07
=== greeneggsnospam is now known as jsgotangco
jsgotangcoLaserJock: same as well, i get emails complaining about the wiki and manuals03:07
mhall119you know, JBoss got started as a business because people wanted training on it, and the guy who wrote it just started holding training03:08
mhall119just saying03:08
LaserJockI don't get so many of those03:08
LaserJockI just don't know what to do with it03:08
jsgotangcoLaserJock: i could update the manual though03:08
jsgotangcobut it would take a while03:08
LaserJockI'd like to shove it Canonical's way and say "hey, people want some training"03:08
jsgotangcoand i probably won't touch anything i don't know (like ltsp)03:09
LaserJockdinda might have some thoughts03:09
jsgotangcoi kind of average like 500 words a day in technical writing lately so it shouldn't take that much to update it for next release03:09
jsgotangcoi wouldn't commit to anything for this release though03:10
LaserJockI do wish people would step up and work on docs in general03:14
LaserJockit's got a fairly low barrier to entry03:14
jsgotangcoare you going to UDS?03:14
LaserJockhave to work unfortunately03:15
jsgotangcoi have a question though03:15
LaserJockbut I am going to the LTSP hackfest at the end of the month03:15
jsgotangcoafter this release03:15
jsgotangcowhat's the roadmap?03:15
LaserJockgood question03:16
LaserJockI think it's going to depend quite a bit on where people step up03:17
LaserJockI know I'm a broken record, but I can't keep this up really03:17
LaserJockfor Karmic we succeeded in creating a DVD03:17
LaserJockthat's awesome03:17
LaserJocksbalneav also fixed sabayon, big win there03:17
jsgotangcolet's be slackware then :)03:18
LaserJockbut beyond that I'm not sure where we've moved forward much03:18
LaserJockso I have a decent Roadmap in my mind for Edubuntu03:18
jsgotangcothat's probably a  good start03:18
LaserJockbut it involves more people than just me implementing it03:18
jsgotangcodo you have it in a wiki?03:19
jsgotangcoor a brainstorming wiki for starters03:19
LaserJockwell, we've had bits here and there03:19
nixternalLaserJock: aren't the LTSP hackfests right there in boston?03:19
nixternalwhoa, you even got jerome in here talking03:19
nixternalI will be in Maine next week to start my bike trip03:20
jsgotangconixternal: its just 10:20am here so I am active at this time03:20
LaserJockjsgotangco: the problem seems to be not so much in the creating of plans but the implementation03:20
nixternalI don't care what time it is, I am never active03:20
jsgotangcoLaserJock: i a gree03:20
LaserJockonce I start talking about plans then it seems like things derail a bit03:20
jsgotangcoLaserJock: although if we are successful in some ways for this release03:20
jsgotangcomaybe we could "freeze" that and fix the other stuff03:20
LaserJockpeople all have a different idea of what Edubuntu is or should be, etc.03:21
jsgotangcoconsidering there isn't a lot of manpower03:21
LaserJockwell, there's just a heck of a lot that needs to be done03:21
jsgotangcoit never ends03:21
LaserJockeven just on the packaging/installer level, not counting things like docs, the website, etc.03:22
jsgotangcoLaserJock: but since the UI doesn't change much or is just dependent on Gnome doc updates won't take a big chunk of work which I am committing for next03:23
jsgotangcoLaserJock: honestly we need a pm03:23
LaserJockjsgotangco: I'm somewhat of a mind to just have everybody create their own roadmap03:23
pacificaHi there.... I'm having some difficulties with LTSP / USB sticks - anyone here who knows a bit about that?03:24
LaserJockthen put them all together and stick it on the wiki somewhere03:24
LaserJockpacifica: you might want to try #ltsp03:24
jsgotangcoLaserJock: then let's do a virtual sprint just to identify though03:24
LaserJockjsgotangco: as in project manager?03:24
pacifica(nobody home in #ltsp)03:25
jsgotangcoyou can't promise 100 people their 100 requests03:25
LaserJockjsgotangco: no03:25
LaserJockjsgotangco: I was really hoping Canonical could spring for a project manager03:25
jsgotangcoso let's list them down and prioritize03:25
LaserJockI was hoping 1/2 time project manager 1/2 project engineer03:25
jsgotangcowell if in the extreme case03:26
jsgotangcoyou can start forking the whole project and still use LP, etc.03:26
LaserJockwe don't need that03:28
LaserJockwe just need somebody with time03:28
LaserJockI could do pm if I had ~4hrs/day to devote to it03:28
jsgotangcolike i said its in the extreme case that this is still gennting snubbed at03:28
LaserJockso far Canonical has just left us alone03:29
LaserJockthey don't seem anti-Edubuntu, the're just not putting any people towards it03:29
jsgotangcowell i don't see the point of you putting so much effort into something they don't care enough03:30
LaserJockwell, whether Canonical cares or not shouldn't matter in the end should it?03:32
LaserJockEdubuntu is for its users more than for Canonical I'd think03:32
jsgotangcoit does03:32
jsgotangcothey still ride on to your effort without doing anything03:32
LaserJockI don't know that they are riding on it though03:32
jsgotangcothey still get word of mouth03:33
LaserJockI believe they've stopped selling support for it03:33
LaserJockI suppose, but probably less than other Ubuntu derivatives03:33
LaserJockthey're still giving us a fair amount of support03:33
LaserJockjust not people03:33
LaserJockI still get to have cjwatson figure out the .iso building, that's a great help03:34
LaserJockin any case03:35
jsgotangcodon't get me wrong its just my opinion like I said I would commit to the next release03:35
LaserJockit is what it is03:35
jsgotangcoof we stick to DVD then let's stick to that for next03:36
LaserJockMark and the Canonical executives get to determine where they put their money03:36
LaserJockand we just have to deal with it03:36
jsgotangcooh im aware its a business (i run one myself)03:36
LaserJockjsgotangco: so how do you run a successful project when nobody has full time (or really even part-time) effort?03:39
jsgotangcoit depends on how you measure your goals03:40
jsgotangcoif your issue is manpower then you shouldn't offer too much on the table03:40
jsgotangconobody complained about slackware being maintained by 1 person03:41
LaserJocksure, but that 1 person did a whole lot03:44
jsgotangcohow do you think the ubuntustudio folks manage? is there an active community behind it?03:47
LaserJockI think they're sort of in a similar situation03:47
LaserJockeither you have 1 strong person that can keep everything together or things just seem to fall apart03:48
jsgotangcoare you comfortable with that position of a strong man?03:49
jsgotangcostrong man of the project rather03:49
LaserJockI don't  have time for it no03:50
jsgotangcook let's change the topic towards this release03:51
jsgotangcosince we have a dvd in the works and we're confident of a release03:51
jsgotangcodoes it make sense to stick to that release and not introduce anything spectacular for next and istead focus on community building again03:52
LaserJockI think we have to do more03:53
LaserJockwe've got a DVD, but barely03:53
jsgotangcodo more feature wise?03:53
LaserJockwell, somewhat03:53
LaserJockmore fixing things so they are done properly03:53
LaserJockright now I'm removing all gdm theming from our artwork package03:54
LaserJockbecause GDM has changed and I don't have time to figure out how to make a proper theme for it03:54
jsgotangcoso its more of integrating bits and pieces already set in place to have coherence and consistency rather than introducing a different way03:54
LaserJockyeah, I would say more so03:54
LaserJockdefinitely that should be the priority, IMO03:55
LaserJockthere are things like Sugar, Qimo, and some cool telepathy stuff nubae has been working on that I'd love to see included03:55
LaserJockbut we need to get the basics down first, IMO03:55
jsgotangcowe should list them down then and set priorities03:57
jsgotangcoso we can tell the community what we can and what we can't and need help03:57
jsgotangcocan do / can't do03:57
jsgotangcook for this release (9.10), what do we need to do03:58
LaserJock1) make sure DVD works (especially text-based installer)03:59
LaserJock2) update edubuntu-artwork and edubuntu-docs to 9.1003:59
LaserJock3) write release notes and release announcement03:59
LaserJock4) update edubuntu.org with new info03:59
LaserJockI'm working on 1) and 2) presently03:59
jsgotangcookay i'll also do 1) point me to where to download04:00
jsgotangcoi can draft 3)04:00
jsgotangcoisn't 2) take some work though?04:00
LaserJock1) http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/dvd/ but wait until the 14th build is done04:01
LaserJock13th is known bad04:01
LaserJock2) has taken my entire day almost, yes04:01
jsgotangcoshit its a dvd04:01
jsgotangcoill wait for 1404:02
sbalneavEveing all04:04
sbalneavHey hey.04:05
sbalneavSo, we talking about "what's next"?04:05
LaserJockkinda yeah04:06
LaserJockand how to make the project work04:06
LaserJockI've spent too much time again in the last 2 weeks04:08
LaserJockchasing down problems and trying to get karmic out the door04:08
LaserJockand in the mean time I'm getting quite a few emails about Edubuntu04:08
LaserJockit seems like the user demand is out there04:08
sbalneavLets do this.  You're going to be at the hackfest, yes?04:09
sbalneavteach me packaging.04:09
sbalneavI'm so *very* limited in what I can do.  I understand the upstream stuff,     but the packaging I'm lost with.04:09
sbalneavI feel I could make more of a difference if I knew what I was doing.04:10
LaserJockso 2 things I want to do during hackfest04:12
LaserJock1) write down everything I think needs to be done for Edubuntu 1.04 and what I'm willing to do04:13
LaserJock2) teach sbalneav how to package04:13
jsgotangcosbalneav: so i was proposing that whatever gets released for this month, we don't apply radical changes for next and focus on cohesion and consistency04:13
LaserJockI'm a tad concerned that people will lose interest if we don't have something new to give them04:13
LaserJockwe haven't done much radically new in a year or so04:14
jsgotangcoim more concred if what you give to them isn't stable for long term use04:14
LaserJockthis release we moved from add-on to DVD, but it's still the same apps04:14
LaserJockgotta take dog for walk, bbiab04:14
sbalneavjsgotangco: I'd tend to agree.  I think if we give people a SOLID product, with most of the bugs beaten out of it, with a GOOD handbook, that'd be a winner.04:16
sbalneavObviously, we can't do much about base ubuntu: whatever bling gets put in there, is what we'll get by default.04:18
jsgotangcoi tend to stick to the mindset that edubuntu users aren't that much interested on 6 month release cycle changes04:30
LaserJocksbalneav: note that now that we're a DVD we don't necessarily have to stick to Ubuntu04:31
jsgotangcoyes! let's use enlightenment then! lol04:31
sbalneavStick to Ubuntu's release cycle, you mean?04:37
LaserJocksbalneav: no, I mean stick to Ubuntu's apps04:55
LaserJockwe're more stuck with Ubuntu's release cycle04:55
jsgotangcodoes it make sense we won't stick to the next cycle and focus on improvements to 9.10?04:57
LaserJockwell, 10.04 is a LTS04:59
LaserJockseems like a good time to me04:59
sbalneavWell, I was hoping we'd get THIS one out the door as the "preview", and really hammer down for 10.04, which should be an LTS release.04:59
LaserJockbut we more-or-less have to release every 6 months05:00
LaserJockwe can call it whatever we like05:00
sbalneavDo we "have" to?05:01
jsgotangcoi agree with sbalneav though05:01
LaserJockour packages are going to get re-synced every 6 months05:01
LaserJockthings need to be maintained05:01
LaserJockI would call the non-LTS releases maintenance releases05:01
sbalneavok, but we target any "big features" we want only for LTS releases.05:01
LaserJockwe're free to target however we want05:02
LaserJockand like I said, we're free to call the releases whatever we need to05:02
LaserJockbut we do need to actually "release", IMO05:02
LaserJockwe could call them Development Previews or something05:03
jsgotangcowhat if we stick to LTS05:04
LaserJockbut part of the problem is that the "big" features" often take more than 1 release05:04
LaserJock1 release to plan05:04
LaserJock1 release to implement first round05:04
LaserJock1 release to polish05:04
LaserJockif I had my way the way we'd do releases would be the following (I think):05:04
LaserJockLTS (our primary release)05:05
LaserJockLTS+1 is maintenance, catch all the bugs we missed05:05
LaserJockLTS+2 start the new features05:05
LaserJockLTS+3 get things more-or-less in place05:05
LaserJockLTS+4 = LTS05:05
jsgotangcoI agree05:06
jsgotangcowe stick to LTS05:06
sbalneavHow can you tell I like this idea.05:06
sbalneavDocument this NOW.05:06
LaserJockI think I could even get it down to a general TODO or checklist for each one of those05:08
jsgotangcoyou get LTS updates along the way05:08
jsgotangcoand piggyback with a stable release05:08
LaserJockok, I need to get to bed05:09
LaserJocklet me think about it some and write up a proposal of sorts05:09
LaserJockoutlining a bit more what each of those stages would entail05:09
LaserJockI got edubuntu-artwork uploaded05:10
LaserJockedubuntu-docs is tomorrow and I hope we're done for uploads05:10
LaserJockg'night everybody05:10
jsgotangcogood chat05:10
jbichaI think I'd like to learn packaging also if someone has the time and there's a need12:24
sbalneavMorning all14:40
jbichagood morning14:42
jbichaI'd like to help with edubuntu; is there a list of things that needs done?15:03
sbalneavWell, you can always start by fixing bugs.15:05
jbichaI don't think I know enough programming for that yet15:06
sbalneavHold on, I'll get you the URL with the list of package bugs.15:06
sbalneavWell, what skills do you have?15:06
jbichapackaging or documentation sound interesting15:08
sbalneavWell, packaging requires programming.15:08
sbalneavAs for documentation, you could help with the wiki, or contribute to the handbook15:08
sbalneavDo you know DocBook XML?15:08
jbichano, but it's not that difficult, is it?15:09
sbalneavProbably the best bet would be to start in on the wiki, then.15:10
jbichaI need a little more direction on the wiki; I know MediaWiki syntax but what needs done? and who else is working on the wiki?15:12
sbalneavhave a look at the edubuntu-users mailing list, I beleive we have a wiki-day coming up where interested people can kick in...15:15
sbalneavone sec, I'll get you the link.15:15
sbalneavAt the moment, I believe no-one's working on the wiki.15:16
jbichais https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ used or is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ the only wiki?15:18
sbalneavNot sure, I don't have much to do with the wiki.  I tend to plug away on the handbook, and do bug fixing.15:19
sbalneavProbably contact highvoltage.  He should be able to point you in the right direction.15:20
LaserJocksbalneav: you realize that the fatal flaw with our plan is if Ubuntu LTS+1 is a total mess15:28
alkisgWon't edubuntu be aligned only with lts releases from now on?15:31
LaserJockalkisg: here was our plan from last night:15:32
LaserJockLTS (our primary release)15:32
LaserJockLTS+1 is maintenance, catch all the bugs we missed15:32
LaserJockLTS+2 start the new features15:32
LaserJockLTS+3 get things more-or-less in place15:32
LaserJockLTS+4 = LTS15:32
LaserJocknow that seems like a good plan but Ubuntu is shifting underneath us every release15:33
LaserJockso my concern would be if Ubuntu had a not-so-good release for LTS+1 due to heavy feature development15:34
LaserJockwhile we're trying to do a maintenance type release15:34
alkisgI think most "new features" were put in 9.10, weren't they?15:35
LaserJockI'm not sure15:35
LaserJock8.10 would be a LTS+115:35
LaserJockI don't remember it being spectacular15:36
LaserJockprobably not bad15:36
alkisgDoesn't that depend on upstream features?15:36
alkisgE.g. new xorg features, new kernel features etc?15:36
LaserJocka fair amount yes15:36
LaserJockbut then Ubuntu, to some degree, picks and chooses what versions to use15:36
LaserJockfor an LTS+1 they might be more adventurous :-)15:37
* alkisg thinks edubuntu lacks more features than stability right now... :)15:37
LaserJockI don't know15:37
LaserJockwe really haven't tested it thoroughly15:37
LaserJockin the past it's been pretty bug-ridden15:37
alkisgSure, but we don't really have much to offer that ubuntu doesn't already offer... that's what I mean15:38
LaserJocksabayon completely unusable, gcompris having issues15:38
LaserJockbut now we have a DVD15:38
LaserJockwhich means we have to consider all the installer issues15:38
sbalneavalkisg: So, I guess the question becomes, what SHOULD we offer, that we dont.15:38
LaserJockfor better or worse we're now responsible for the *entire* OS stack15:38
alkisgLaserJock: I understand, I'm not saying that stability isn't important, of course it is. But to attract more people, shouldn't we put down a plan for features? (yeah I know we've been thought that talk many times before...)15:39
LaserJockI think we should15:40
alkisgsbalneav: well, as a teacher, I'd like for edubuntu to offer me a simpler way to setup a lab.15:40
LaserJockbut maybe not too much until LTS+115:40
alkisgLTSP did that; that's why I started with Ubuntu in the first place15:40
alkisgEdubuntu could maybe fill the same need but for standalone installations15:40
sbalneavWell, define "Simpler way to set up a lab"15:40
LaserJockthe other issue is that it takes many more hands to develop features than stabilize an existing set of features15:41
sbalneavWhat bits do we need that we're missing15:41
alkisgA way to setup packages in all the lab?15:41
alkisgA way to maintain users?15:41
alkisgShared home folders?15:41
alkisgSomething along those lines15:41
sbalneavAll of those things are there right now.15:42
alkisgsbalneav, not for the teacher :(15:42
sbalneavAre you saying you want a CONTROL PANEL to do those things?15:42
alkisgThey're there only for the experienced admin15:42
sbalneavWe have to be specific about what we want.15:42
sbalneav"a way to maintain users" is pretty vague. :)15:43
LaserJockwhat I would simply *love* to see is 1) a list of the tasks and features that are needed for a school lab and 2) a list of the tasks and features that a home user (parent) needs15:43
LaserJockthen we can match up how we're doing against the list15:43
LaserJockand try to fill in the gaps15:43
LaserJockbut it's really hard to go on "make it easier"15:44
LaserJockpartially because I'm not a teacher15:44
alkisgsbalneav: sure, it's vague. As a teacher, I don't know what the best way is for me to keep a list of e.g. 200 student accounts.15:44
LaserJockso I can only guess (thought I think I can make reasonable guesses)15:44
alkisgI'd like edubuntu to give me 1 solution for that; I don't know if it would be ldap/nfs or some other formula15:44
LaserJockright, see, I'd like to see the actual tasks15:45
LaserJockthen we can work on the technologies needed to do it15:45
sbalneavalkisg: Sure, but you can probably give us an idea as to what it would look like.15:45
alkisgsbalneav: ok, for this specific part, here are my tech-side thoughts:15:45
sbalneavOr, what you'd LIKE it to look like.15:45
alkisgFirst, I thought about ldap/nfs. Then I thought that this would be really really difficult for a teacher to maintain15:45
alkisgThen, I thought about libpam-sshfs etc. This could easily work15:46
alkisgNow I'm thinking that may a "virtual-users" solution would be even easier (that needs a lot of explaining)15:46
alkisg(~= 1 user per PC, and the home folder mounted by sshfs)15:46
alkisgNow, as a teacher I wouldn't even care which of those solutions would be offered to me by edubuntu15:47
alkisgAs long as it worked, and I could handle it, I wouldn't mind what it was called...15:47
LaserJockso if we had a list of tasks15:48
LaserJockwhich would could review current solutions for15:48
LaserJockassigning some level of "usability"15:48
jbichaa roadmap15:48
sbalneavOf all of those, the LDAP/NFS would be the EASIEST to maintain, as they simply require some meta packages.15:48
LaserJockwe can then assess what areas need help or maybe there are some low-hanging-fruit15:48
alkisgI think that can be arranged, couldn't it? E.g. ask people to fill in the tasks that they'd like to see implemented in a wiki15:49
sbalneavLaserJock: Don't we have a "Desired Features" page somewhere?15:49
LaserJockprobably, I don't know where15:49
LaserJockthat's what I wanted to have the wiki cleanup for ....15:49
alkisgsbalneav: e.g. for ldap/nfs the teacher is going to ask: how do I add new users?15:51
alkisgIf you tell him to create text files and run import commands, well, I think you lost him :)15:51
LaserJockcouldn't we just throw a GUI on that?15:51
sbalneavalkisg: My first question is: are teachers allowed to/supposed to add users?15:52
alkisgWell, if edubuntu came with nfs/ldap integration and a gui, then I know many many teachers that would prefer it !15:52
sbalneavHow do you maintain standards?  Don't school tech staff do this?15:52
alkisgsbalneav: yes, in most small schools the computer teacher is also the admin15:52
alkisgE.g. only a handful of schools here in greece are large enough to have tech staff15:52
sbalneavOk, so it's just ONE teacher who does this, not every teacher in the school adding users willy-nilly.15:53
alkisgAt least here it's the teacher that "owns" the lab - other teacher may teach in that lab, but they don't have administration rights15:54
sbalneavAs for a gui, I've already started work on a Python GUI for adding LDAP users.  And I have scripts for setting up standardized LDAP servers, and scripts for setting up NFS servers, etc.15:54
alkisgsbalneav: well, if you managed to add those to edubuntu, I think teachers would have a great reason to prefer it to plain ubuntu15:54
sbalneavThe problem is, for me, as always, packaging.  However, LaserJock and I will be together in Maine next week, so I'm going to hopefully get all this answered.15:55
sbalneavI got Sabayon going for this go-round, for next go round, I want to create a:15:55
sbalneavedubuntu-ldap-server package, that creates a "standard" ldap server.15:55
sbalneavedubuntu-ldap-client package that is installed on ldap client machines.15:56
sbalneavedubuntu-nfs-server package, that creates a "standard" NFS server15:56
sbalneavedubuntu-nfs-client package, self explanatory.15:56
sbalneavand an edubuntu-ldap-guitools for the used/group program.15:57
alkisgThat'd be perfect for the user administration problem :)15:57
sbalneavin the installer part of the DVD we could have a question:15:57
sbalneav"Do you want this to be a <whatever we call it> CLient, or server?15:58
sbalneavIf you pick "server" then you get the ldap and NFS server packages installed.15:58
* alkisg would also add a question for a standalone, home user pc15:58
sbalneavif it's a client, then it asks the hostname/ip of a server, and boom, you get shared home dirs and LDAP.15:58
sbalneavWell you need 3 choices.15:59
sbalneavServer, Client or Standalone15:59
alkisgsbalneav: that's exactly the choices I was describing for my "eduubuntu remix" :) Perfect match!15:59
sbalneavNow, all the actual PROGRAMMING bits to make this work, I've got in the bag.15:59
sbalneavhow the heck we pull this off PACKAGING wise, I dunno.16:00
sbalneavSetting up an "edubuntu-ldap-server" package would require:16:00
sbalneavinstalling open-ldap16:00
alkisgAlso, we could e.g. install italc-master in the server, and italc-client in the clients; or squid server on  the server, and automatically configure the clients with wap; etc16:01
sbalneavthen buggering about with files in /etc to create a pre-configured "out of the box" LDAP schema.16:01
sbalneavbut, according to what I've been able to glean, packaged are NOT supposed to bugger with stuff in /etc.16:01
alkisgRight. I hope LaserJock can help with those, he's the most experienced with packaging amongst us16:01
sbalneavso how we accomplish that, I dunno :)16:02
alkisgsbalneav: I think you can create symlinks to /var, and dynamically create configuration files there16:02
alkisg(at least I think what vagrantc once proposed to me)16:02
sbalneavthat's where I fall apart.16:02
sbalneavthat's the bits I don't know.16:02
jbichasome type of edubuntu-default-settings could be packaged separately than the more vanilla package16:03
* alkisg last year got a set of scripts to automatically setup LTSP labs the way we want them. This year I'd like to automate the installation of an non-LTSP lab. From the next year I'd like to push as much of these methods/scripts as I can upstream.16:03
sbalneavHelp me Obi-Wan-LaserJock, you're my only hope :)16:03
* sbalneav straps cinnamon rolls to his head16:03
LaserJockhow does LTSP fit in the scheme of things regarding Sever, Client, Standalone?16:07
LaserJockis that a 4th option?16:07
alkisgWell, it's completely different, sure16:08
alkisgIt doesn't need nfs, nor ldap16:09
alkisgI'm not even sure if classrooms using LTSP should be a target group for edubuntu anymore, now that ltsp is part of plain ubuntu16:09
alkisgI.e. they should be able to setup a lab with an ubuntu+ltsp installation, and an edubuntu-educational-packages installation on top of that16:10
alkisgThey only setup a single computer after all, it doesn't take as much time as an entire classroom, they can affort to install things after the initial installation16:10
sbalneavProbably this is a tasksel thing we could pop up16:10
sbalneavlike ubuntu-server does.16:11
sbalneavWith tickoff's for:16:11
sbalneavLTSP server16:11
sbalneavEdubuntu LDAP server16:11
sbalneavEdubuntu NFS server16:11
alkisgLaserJock: can a tasksel create arbitrary /etc/configuration files?16:12
alkisg(I'm thinking that my set of scripts worked just fine for dozens of teachers... maybe scripts are also the way to go here, bundled in a nice gui)16:13
LaserJockit depends on the actual program more than the packaging16:16
LaserJockfor instance apache is set up so that other packages can just drop in config files16:16
LaserJockthe packaging rule is that no more than 1 package can "own" a file16:17
LaserJockand a package is not supposed to mess around with files that are owned by another package16:17
LaserJockas far as LTSP goes16:20
alkisgE.g. if the Edubuntu NFS server package wanted to add some *entries* to /etc/exports, how would it do that?16:21
LaserJockcan a script be called to update it for you?16:21
alkisgYes, of course, a postinst script, but is that an acceptable method?16:21
LaserJockno, I mean16:22
LaserJockcan you run some script with an argument that does the updating16:22
alkisgI'm not sure I understand what you're saying... "you run" => me the user, or me the installation task?16:23
LaserJockok, here's the way you get around the config file ownership16:24
LaserJockthe package that owns the file provides a script to update the file16:24
LaserJockthen other packages run that script in postinst with whatever values they want16:24
LaserJockfor instance16:24
LaserJockwe don't directly edit it16:24
LaserJockwe run adduser and it does it for us16:24
LaserJockso it's perfectly find to run adduser in a postinst16:25
alkisgHere's another example, to make it more clear: if the ltsp installation package modified /etc/dhcpd/dhcp.conf, then when the dhcp3-server package was upgraded, the user would be prompted "do you want to install the new package maintainer version..." etc...16:25
alkisgSo if we go ahead and modify files that belong to other packages, the user will be prompted for things he didn't manually edit himself16:25
alkisgAre we allowed to do that as part of a postinst script?16:26
jbichawill ShipIt be sending out Edubunu DVDs after Karmic is released?16:27
LaserJockjbicha: nope16:27
jbichaso I can take that link off the wiki, right?16:27
LaserJockalkisg: well, what we'd want to do is have some script in dhcp3-server that we could run to update /etc/dhcpd/dhcp.conf16:27
LaserJockjbicha: yep16:27
LaserJockall of this config file stuff can be handled, it's just a matter of how much work it would be "upstream"16:28
sbalneavOK, NFS can be handled with the "exportfs" utility, which allows us to add exports withoud modifying the file.16:30
sbalneavhowever, LDAP's a problem.16:30
sbalneavthere's no "update-ldap-config" program that allows us to make the mods to the ldap programs.16:30
sbalneavsorry, ldap conf files.16:30
LaserJockso we'd want to coordinate with the Server team16:31
LaserJockand see if one could be added or how they'd recommend we proceed16:31
LaserJockthe idea here is that the package that owns the file should know what's going on with it's file16:31
LaserJockalso note that it's been a while since I read Policy about the config file thing16:32
LaserJockthere could be some things I'm forgetting16:32
alkisgEven if the same package modified its configuration file, wouldn't the user still be prompted on upgrade?16:32
=== highvolt1ge is now known as highvoltage
LaserJockwe'd need to look at the details I think16:33
LaserJocknot all config files are Debian config files :-)16:33
LaserJockbut it *is* possible for other packages to change the configuration16:34
LaserJockapache for example16:35
LaserJockand many others16:35
LaserJockbut often it requires modification to the original package, which is why coordination with the team that takes care of that package is needed16:35
* alkisg is sorry but he has to leave to get his kids to a cartoon lesson :-/ Thanks a lot guys, that seemed to be just in the right direction for me..16:35
jbichaI hate this MoinMoin wiki thing, I think MediaWiki's easier17:50
sbalneavWell, we've got what we've got.17:52
LaserJockI go back and forth on the wikis17:54
LaserJockI'm more used to Moin so I find it easier17:54
LaserJockI think it's also more secure17:55
LaserJockbut MediaWiki seems faster and more people know it17:55
jbichafor instance if I wanted to create a draftpage for feedback before changing a page, I'd have to upload all of the images all over again18:10
alkisgYeah mediawiki has a lot more devs behind it that support it...18:13
LaserJockI think the only thing I like better is that you can edit particular sections18:24
jbichahere's a reorganization of the main wikipage I was working on http://imagebin.org/6778718:50
jbichacan I just make changes or do I need to get approval first?19:00
LaserJockjbicha: I'm taking a look19:02
LaserJockjbicha: under community what is the "Volunteer" link for?19:03
LaserJockVolunteers rather19:03
jbichafor people who aren't official Edubuntu Members yet19:03
jbichaa place for people to show what they're working on19:04
LaserJockI'd tend to favor ditching the "Volunteers" and putting that in "Teams" maybe19:04
jbichathat could work if we have teams19:05
LaserJockit just  makes it look like there are Volunteers and non-Volunteers (i.e. Members, Edubuntu Council, etc.)19:05
Lnsugh..ubuntu wiki is dead slow19:05
LaserJockand everybody is a volunteer19:05
jbichathat would be less confusing with the other use of Volunteer on that page19:05
LaserJockso I think it's maybe a not great distinction19:05
LaserJockif we wanted a page like that I think Contributors would maybe be a better wording19:06
LaserJockbut it seems like people would show off what they're working on on their individual wiki pages and on the relevant team pages19:06
jbichaencourage teamwork19:07
LaserJockI kind of like using Volunteer in in the 3rd column19:08
LaserJockI would maybe change ReportBugs to just Bugs19:08
LaserJockwe could discuss both reporting and triaging19:08
LaserJockSuggest is great, we can link that to brainstorm19:08
LaserJockunder Help I think the Cookbook is dead, we probably don't want to link to that19:09
jbichait's a little funny though, things you can do to help out, you can develop, document, or bug the developers19:09
LaserJockAbout looks great too19:09
LaserJockjbicha: what about Support under Volunteer?19:10
LaserJockjbicha: we could have places that people can help give user support19:10
LaserJockbut I'm not sure if that would sort of overlap with Campaign or not19:10
jbichacampaigning and supporting are different19:11
LaserJockmaybe "Help" should be "Get Help"19:13
LaserJockas Help could also mean "help out Edubuntu"19:13
LaserJockso maybe be firm with "this is where you go to get help"19:13
jbichawhat would supporting by volunteering look like?19:23
sbalneavCookbook --> Handbook19:24
jbichais handbook the same thing as your DocBook work?19:26
LaserJockjbicha: well, I think it would be good to have people who volunteer to help out with this channel and the edubuntu-users list giving help to people19:27
LaserJockjbicha: and I want to recognize people who are already doing a stand-up job doing that19:27
jbichathat's good19:27
LaserJockI want to say that it is a legitimate and worthwhile form of contribution to Edubuntu19:28
LaserJockso something like "Hey, volunteer in our support team by trying to answer email questions within 24hrs"19:28
LaserJockor maybe we can have a list of volunteers who are willing to take questions on particular subjects19:29
LaserJockwho's a good person to talk to about internationalization, LTSP fat clients, LDAP, edu apps, etc.19:29
jbichaupdated version: http://imagebin.org/6779719:36
LaserJockjbicha: hmm, I just noticed something19:41
LaserJockjbicha: we have the column headers as links19:41
LaserJockI wonder if we really want that19:41
LaserJockit seems to me as if we're listing underneath the headings the actual entry points we want people to go to19:42
jbichathat's how it used to be but it's probably not that useful19:42
LaserJockjbicha: looks great though19:43
LaserJockjbicha: you ready to make that "live"?19:44
jbichadone, now I just have to fix all the new broken links https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu19:45
LaserJockI'm working up the edubuntu-docs upload19:46
LaserJockand then I guess I'll be working on the wiki mostly19:47
LaserJockjbicha: are you planning on creating all new pages for all those links?20:03
LaserJockit might be better to "repurpose" existing pages or as a first step link to them20:04
jbichaI've already moved a couple pages20:04
jbichaexisting pages are a good headstart20:05
LaserJockwe need to be a bit careful about moving pages around20:10
LaserJockespecially if the existing pages have had external links to them20:10
LaserJockjbicha: why are you using Document instead of Documentation?20:11
jbichabecause I liked verbs20:11
LaserJockI understand where you're coming from on that20:13
LaserJockbut it's a bit of a gratuitous move20:13
alkisg(it also points to a non-existing location, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/%5CDocument)20:13
alkisg(I mean the backslash there)20:13
jbichaok, Documentation is probably a better term, but what if I pipe it with Document so the Volunteer verbs match20:14
LaserJockjbicha: sure20:22
Lns For anyone interested, I just created a howto on creating shared Gnome desktops for users: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/SharedDesktops - any input appreciated20:30
LaserJockjbicha: we generally don't recommend just mass moving wiki pages, especially without much discussion20:45
LaserJockjbicha: are you just moving things to be inline with the front page?20:46
jbichayes, but I could slow down20:47
LaserJockjbicha: why don't we just link FAQ to the help.ubuntu.com page20:47
LaserJockjbicha: we don't need to have a separate copy I don't think20:47
jbichaI'm confused by the 2 wikis20:48
LaserJockjbicha: ultimately I don't think anything under Get Help should be on wiki.ubuntu.com20:48
LaserJockwiki.ubuntu.com is for development purposes20:48
LaserJockto help developer and contributors organize themselves, etc.20:48
LaserJocka place to put feature specifications, task lists, organize teams, etc.20:48
LaserJockhelp.ubuntu.com/community is specifically  just about end-user documentation, help, and support20:49
LaserJockso FAQ and Guides should maybe point to help.ubuntu.com20:49
LaserJockand Contact and Get Support should link to pages on edubuntu.org20:50
LaserJockthat way we don't have to maintain multiple copies of things20:50
jbichaok, I'll redirect those20:50
LaserJockyou don't need to redirect20:51
LaserJockjust link20:51
LaserJockor maybe that's what you meant20:51
jbichathe DownloadRedirect was a redirect so I thought that was how it was supposed to be done20:52
jbichabut direct link makes more sense20:52
jbichaa lot of the things under Volunteer are duplicated by the various Teams21:09
LaserJockjbicha: well, that's a good thing21:15
LaserJockbut I think perhaps we should maybe do things a bit differently21:16
LaserJockthe Edubuntu/Teams page is done using includes21:17
LaserJockso you have to create a wiki page for each team, and then it's all pulled in by the Teams page21:17
LaserJockI think it would work better to have a single Teams page that talks about the relevant teams21:18
LaserJockand then have the Volunteer pages as the concrete "this is how to get involved and contribute" pages21:19
LaserJockor I suppose we could keep the includes (it seems a tad messy to me) but we shouldn't have that many pages21:20
LaserJockit seems like it would be easier to just edit the one page than to mess with a whole sub-hierarchy of them21:21
jbichathe Teams page could be a short description of the various teams on 1 page21:25
jbicha& the Volunteer pages be the actual pages with what's being worked on now, what help is needed, and future goals ?21:25
jbichawhy were all the pages created with a Edubuntu/WikiSite/ prefix? isn't the WikiSite redundant?21:43
LaserJockthose come from your "predecessor"21:44
jbichais he gone for good?21:44
LaserJockthere was a guy who was working on a wiki cleanup the last couple months21:44
jbichaI read through last month's mailing list earlier21:44
LaserJockand what he was going to do I believe is move everything into Edubuntu/WikiSite/ , get everything arranged, and then go back and remove the /WikiSite/ part21:44
LaserJockwell, he said he's gone for good21:45
LaserJockI hope he comes back at some point21:45
LaserJockthere are a few useful pages in /WikiSite/21:46
LaserJockI was hoping we could use it to put stuff that can be used in other wiki pages21:46
LaserJocklike images and headers21:46
LaserJockand you could put a SiteMap there too for instance21:47
jbichathanks for the help; I believe I'm done for today22:07
LaserJockjbicha: thanks for the contribution22:09

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