[02:30] <LaserJock> hmm
[02:30] <LaserJock> I just got an email from somebody wanting to get teacher training for Edubuntu
[02:57] <greeneggsnospam> heh
[03:07] <LaserJock> I've gotten quite a rash of people asking for help/info
[03:07] <jsgotangco> LaserJock: same as well, i get emails complaining about the wiki and manuals
[03:08] <LaserJock> oh?
[03:08] <mhall119> you know, JBoss got started as a business because people wanted training on it, and the guy who wrote it just started holding training
[03:08] <mhall119> just saying
[03:08] <LaserJock> I don't get so many of those
[03:08] <LaserJock> right
[03:08] <LaserJock> I just don't know what to do with it
[03:08] <jsgotangco> LaserJock: i could update the manual though
[03:08] <jsgotangco> but it would take a while
[03:08] <LaserJock> I'd like to shove it Canonical's way and say "hey, people want some training"
[03:09] <jsgotangco> and i probably won't touch anything i don't know (like ltsp)
[03:09] <LaserJock> dinda might have some thoughts
[03:09] <jsgotangco> i kind of average like 500 words a day in technical writing lately so it shouldn't take that much to update it for next release
[03:10] <jsgotangco> i wouldn't commit to anything for this release though
[03:14] <LaserJock> I do wish people would step up and work on docs in general
[03:14] <LaserJock> it's got a fairly low barrier to entry
[03:14] <jsgotangco> are you going to UDS?
[03:15] <LaserJock> nope
[03:15] <LaserJock> have to work unfortunately
[03:15] <jsgotangco> i have a question though
[03:15] <LaserJock> but I am going to the LTSP hackfest at the end of the month
[03:15] <jsgotangco> after this release
[03:15] <jsgotangco> what's the roadmap?
[03:16] <LaserJock> good question
[03:17] <LaserJock> I think it's going to depend quite a bit on where people step up
[03:17] <LaserJock> I know I'm a broken record, but I can't keep this up really
[03:17] <jsgotangco> yeah
[03:17] <LaserJock> for Karmic we succeeded in creating a DVD
[03:17] <LaserJock> that's awesome
[03:17] <LaserJock> sbalneav also fixed sabayon, big win there
[03:18] <jsgotangco> let's be slackware then :)
[03:18] <LaserJock> but beyond that I'm not sure where we've moved forward much
[03:18] <LaserJock> so I have a decent Roadmap in my mind for Edubuntu
[03:18] <jsgotangco> that's probably a  good start
[03:18] <LaserJock> but it involves more people than just me implementing it
[03:19] <jsgotangco> do you have it in a wiki?
[03:19] <jsgotangco> or a brainstorming wiki for starters
[03:19] <LaserJock> well, we've had bits here and there
[03:19] <nixternal> LaserJock: aren't the LTSP hackfests right there in boston?
[03:19] <LaserJock> Maine
[03:19] <nixternal> whoa, you even got jerome in here talking
[03:20] <nixternal> I will be in Maine next week to start my bike trip
[03:20] <jsgotangco> nixternal: its just 10:20am here so I am active at this time
[03:20] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: the problem seems to be not so much in the creating of plans but the implementation
[03:20] <nixternal> I don't care what time it is, I am never active
[03:20] <jsgotangco> LaserJock: i a gree
[03:20] <LaserJock> once I start talking about plans then it seems like things derail a bit
[03:20] <jsgotangco> LaserJock: although if we are successful in some ways for this release
[03:20] <jsgotangco> maybe we could "freeze" that and fix the other stuff
[03:21] <LaserJock> people all have a different idea of what Edubuntu is or should be, etc.
[03:21] <jsgotangco> considering there isn't a lot of manpower
[03:21] <LaserJock> well, there's just a heck of a lot that needs to be done
[03:21] <jsgotangco> it never ends
[03:22] <LaserJock> even just on the packaging/installer level, not counting things like docs, the website, etc.
[03:23] <jsgotangco> LaserJock: but since the UI doesn't change much or is just dependent on Gnome doc updates won't take a big chunk of work which I am committing for next
[03:23] <jsgotangco> LaserJock: honestly we need a pm
[03:23] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: I'm somewhat of a mind to just have everybody create their own roadmap
[03:24] <pacifica> Hi there.... I'm having some difficulties with LTSP / USB sticks - anyone here who knows a bit about that?
[03:24] <LaserJock> then put them all together and stick it on the wiki somewhere
[03:24] <LaserJock> pacifica: you might want to try #ltsp
[03:24] <jsgotangco> LaserJock: then let's do a virtual sprint just to identify though
[03:24] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: as in project manager?
[03:24] <jsgotangco> yes
[03:25] <pacifica> (nobody home in #ltsp)
[03:25] <jsgotangco> you can't promise 100 people their 100 requests
[03:25] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: no
[03:25] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: I was really hoping Canonical could spring for a project manager
[03:25] <jsgotangco> so let's list them down and prioritize
[03:25] <LaserJock> I was hoping 1/2 time project manager 1/2 project engineer
[03:26] <jsgotangco> well if in the extreme case
[03:26] <jsgotangco> you can start forking the whole project and still use LP, etc.
[03:28] <LaserJock> we don't need that
[03:28] <LaserJock> we just need somebody with time
[03:28] <LaserJock> I could do pm if I had ~4hrs/day to devote to it
[03:28] <jsgotangco> like i said its in the extreme case that this is still gennting snubbed at
[03:28] <jsgotangco> getting
[03:29] <LaserJock> so far Canonical has just left us alone
[03:29] <LaserJock> they don't seem anti-Edubuntu, the're just not putting any people towards it
[03:29] <LaserJock> *they're
[03:30] <jsgotangco> well i don't see the point of you putting so much effort into something they don't care enough
[03:32] <LaserJock> well, whether Canonical cares or not shouldn't matter in the end should it?
[03:32] <LaserJock> Edubuntu is for its users more than for Canonical I'd think
[03:32] <jsgotangco> it does
[03:32] <jsgotangco> they still ride on to your effort without doing anything
[03:32] <LaserJock> I don't know that they are riding on it though
[03:33] <jsgotangco> they still get word of mouth
[03:33] <LaserJock> I believe they've stopped selling support for it
[03:33] <LaserJock> I suppose, but probably less than other Ubuntu derivatives
[03:33] <LaserJock> they're still giving us a fair amount of support
[03:33] <LaserJock> just not people
[03:34] <LaserJock> I still get to have cjwatson figure out the .iso building, that's a great help
[03:35] <LaserJock> in any case
[03:35] <jsgotangco> don't get me wrong its just my opinion like I said I would commit to the next release
[03:35] <LaserJock> it is what it is
[03:36] <jsgotangco> of we stick to DVD then let's stick to that for next
[03:36] <LaserJock> Mark and the Canonical executives get to determine where they put their money
[03:36] <LaserJock> and we just have to deal with it
[03:36] <jsgotangco> oh im aware its a business (i run one myself)
[03:39] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: so how do you run a successful project when nobody has full time (or really even part-time) effort?
[03:40] <jsgotangco> it depends on how you measure your goals
[03:40] <jsgotangco> if your issue is manpower then you shouldn't offer too much on the table
[03:41] <jsgotangco> nobody complained about slackware being maintained by 1 person
[03:44] <LaserJock> sure, but that 1 person did a whole lot
[03:47] <jsgotangco> how do you think the ubuntustudio folks manage? is there an active community behind it?
[03:47] <LaserJock> sorta
[03:47] <LaserJock> I think they're sort of in a similar situation
[03:48] <LaserJock> either you have 1 strong person that can keep everything together or things just seem to fall apart
[03:49] <jsgotangco> are you comfortable with that position of a strong man?
[03:49] <jsgotangco> strong man of the project rather
[03:50] <LaserJock> I don't  have time for it no
[03:51] <jsgotangco> ok let's change the topic towards this release
[03:51] <jsgotangco> since we have a dvd in the works and we're confident of a release
[03:52] <jsgotangco> does it make sense to stick to that release and not introduce anything spectacular for next and istead focus on community building again
[03:53] <LaserJock> I think we have to do more
[03:53] <LaserJock> we've got a DVD, but barely
[03:53] <jsgotangco> do more feature wise?
[03:53] <LaserJock> well, somewhat
[03:53] <LaserJock> more fixing things so they are done properly
[03:54] <LaserJock> right now I'm removing all gdm theming from our artwork package
[03:54] <LaserJock> because GDM has changed and I don't have time to figure out how to make a proper theme for it
[03:54] <jsgotangco> so its more of integrating bits and pieces already set in place to have coherence and consistency rather than introducing a different way
[03:54] <LaserJock> yeah, I would say more so
[03:55] <LaserJock> definitely that should be the priority, IMO
[03:55] <LaserJock> there are things like Sugar, Qimo, and some cool telepathy stuff nubae has been working on that I'd love to see included
[03:55] <LaserJock> but we need to get the basics down first, IMO
[03:57] <jsgotangco> we should list them down then and set priorities
[03:57] <jsgotangco> so we can tell the community what we can and what we can't and need help
[03:57] <jsgotangco> can do / can't do
[03:57] <LaserJock> yep
[03:58] <jsgotangco> ok for this release (9.10), what do we need to do
[03:59] <LaserJock> 1) make sure DVD works (especially text-based installer)
[03:59] <LaserJock> 2) update edubuntu-artwork and edubuntu-docs to 9.10
[03:59] <LaserJock> 3) write release notes and release announcement
[03:59] <LaserJock> 4) update edubuntu.org with new info
[03:59] <LaserJock> I'm working on 1) and 2) presently
[04:00] <jsgotangco> okay i'll also do 1) point me to where to download
[04:00] <jsgotangco> i can draft 3)
[04:00] <jsgotangco> isn't 2) take some work though?
[04:01] <LaserJock> 1) http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/dvd/ but wait until the 14th build is done
[04:01] <LaserJock> 13th is known bad
[04:01] <jsgotangco> okay
[04:01] <LaserJock> 2) has taken my entire day almost, yes
[04:01] <jsgotangco> shit its a dvd
[04:01] <jsgotangco> lol
[04:02] <jsgotangco> ill wait for 14
[04:04] <sbalneav> Eveing all
[04:04] <LaserJock> hi
[04:05] <sbalneav> Hey hey.
[04:05] <sbalneav> So, we talking about "what's next"?
[04:06] <LaserJock> kinda yeah
[04:06] <LaserJock> and how to make the project work
[04:08] <LaserJock> I've spent too much time again in the last 2 weeks
[04:08] <LaserJock> chasing down problems and trying to get karmic out the door
[04:08] <LaserJock> and in the mean time I'm getting quite a few emails about Edubuntu
[04:08] <LaserJock> it seems like the user demand is out there
[04:09] <sbalneav> Lets do this.  You're going to be at the hackfest, yes?
[04:09] <sbalneav> teach me packaging.
[04:09] <sbalneav> I'm so *very* limited in what I can do.  I understand the upstream stuff,     but the packaging I'm lost with.
[04:10] <sbalneav> I feel I could make more of a difference if I knew what I was doing.
[04:12] <LaserJock> right
[04:12] <LaserJock> so 2 things I want to do during hackfest
[04:13] <LaserJock> 1) write down everything I think needs to be done for Edubuntu 1.04 and what I'm willing to do
[04:13] <LaserJock> 2) teach sbalneav how to package
[04:13] <jsgotangco> sbalneav: so i was proposing that whatever gets released for this month, we don't apply radical changes for next and focus on cohesion and consistency
[04:13] <LaserJock> I'm a tad concerned that people will lose interest if we don't have something new to give them
[04:14] <LaserJock> we haven't done much radically new in a year or so
[04:14] <jsgotangco> im more concred if what you give to them isn't stable for long term use
[04:14] <LaserJock> this release we moved from add-on to DVD, but it's still the same apps
[04:14] <LaserJock> gotta take dog for walk, bbiab
[04:16] <jsgotangco> ok
[04:16] <sbalneav> jsgotangco: I'd tend to agree.  I think if we give people a SOLID product, with most of the bugs beaten out of it, with a GOOD handbook, that'd be a winner.
[04:18] <sbalneav> Obviously, we can't do much about base ubuntu: whatever bling gets put in there, is what we'll get by default.
[04:29] <jsgotangco> yeah
[04:30] <jsgotangco> i tend to stick to the mindset that edubuntu users aren't that much interested on 6 month release cycle changes
[04:31] <LaserJock> sbalneav: note that now that we're a DVD we don't necessarily have to stick to Ubuntu
[04:31] <jsgotangco> yes! let's use enlightenment then! lol
[04:32] <jsgotangco> kidding
[04:32] <jsgotangco> :D
[04:37] <sbalneav> Stick to Ubuntu's release cycle, you mean?
[04:55] <LaserJock> sbalneav: no, I mean stick to Ubuntu's apps
[04:55] <LaserJock> we're more stuck with Ubuntu's release cycle
[04:57] <jsgotangco> does it make sense we won't stick to the next cycle and focus on improvements to 9.10?
[04:59] <LaserJock> well, 10.04 is a LTS
[04:59] <LaserJock> seems like a good time to me
[04:59] <sbalneav> Well, I was hoping we'd get THIS one out the door as the "preview", and really hammer down for 10.04, which should be an LTS release.
[05:00] <LaserJock> right
[05:00] <LaserJock> but we more-or-less have to release every 6 months
[05:00] <LaserJock> we can call it whatever we like
[05:01] <sbalneav> Do we "have" to?
[05:01] <LaserJock> basically
[05:01] <jsgotangco> i agree with sbalneav though
[05:01] <sbalneav> hm.
[05:01] <LaserJock> our packages are going to get re-synced every 6 months
[05:01] <LaserJock> things need to be maintained
[05:01] <LaserJock> I would call the non-LTS releases maintenance releases
[05:01] <sbalneav> ok, but we target any "big features" we want only for LTS releases.
[05:02] <LaserJock> sure
[05:02] <LaserJock> we're free to target however we want
[05:02] <LaserJock> and like I said, we're free to call the releases whatever we need to
[05:02] <LaserJock> but we do need to actually "release", IMO
[05:02] <sbalneav> ok
[05:03] <LaserJock> we could call them Development Previews or something
[05:04] <jsgotangco> what if we stick to LTS
[05:04] <LaserJock> but part of the problem is that the "big" features" often take more than 1 release
[05:04] <LaserJock> 1 release to plan
[05:04] <LaserJock> 1 release to implement first round
[05:04] <LaserJock> 1 release to polish
[05:04] <LaserJock> if I had my way the way we'd do releases would be the following (I think):
[05:05] <LaserJock> LTS (our primary release)
[05:05] <LaserJock> LTS+1 is maintenance, catch all the bugs we missed
[05:05] <LaserJock> LTS+2 start the new features
[05:05] <LaserJock> LTS+3 get things more-or-less in place
[05:05] <LaserJock> LTS+4 = LTS
[05:06] <sbalneav> LaserJock+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[05:06] <jsgotangco> I agree
[05:06] <sbalneav> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[05:06] <sbalneav> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[05:06] <jsgotangco> we stick to LTS
[05:06] <sbalneav> How can you tell I like this idea.
[05:06] <sbalneav> Document this NOW.
[05:07] <LaserJock> lol
[05:08] <LaserJock> I think I could even get it down to a general TODO or checklist for each one of those
[05:08] <jsgotangco> you get LTS updates along the way
[05:08] <jsgotangco> and piggyback with a stable release
[05:09] <LaserJock> ok, I need to get to bed
[05:09] <sbalneav> k
[05:09] <LaserJock> let me think about it some and write up a proposal of sorts
[05:09] <LaserJock> outlining a bit more what each of those stages would entail
[05:10] <LaserJock> I got edubuntu-artwork uploaded
[05:10] <LaserJock> edubuntu-docs is tomorrow and I hope we're done for uploads
[05:10] <LaserJock> g'night everybody
[05:10] <jsgotangco> later
[05:10] <jsgotangco> good chat
[12:24] <jbicha> I think I'd like to learn packaging also if someone has the time and there's a need
[14:40] <sbalneav> Morning all
[14:42] <jbicha> good morning
[15:03] <jbicha> I'd like to help with edubuntu; is there a list of things that needs done?
[15:05] <sbalneav> Well, you can always start by fixing bugs.
[15:06] <jbicha> I don't think I know enough programming for that yet
[15:06] <sbalneav> Hold on, I'll get you the URL with the list of package bugs.
[15:06] <sbalneav> ok
[15:06] <sbalneav> Well, what skills do you have?
[15:08] <jbicha> packaging or documentation sound interesting
[15:08] <sbalneav> Well, packaging requires programming.
[15:08] <sbalneav> As for documentation, you could help with the wiki, or contribute to the handbook
[15:08] <sbalneav> Do you know DocBook XML?
[15:09] <jbicha> no, but it's not that difficult, is it?
[15:09] <sbalneav> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~edubuntu-bugs/+packagebugs
[15:10] <sbalneav> Probably the best bet would be to start in on the wiki, then.
[15:12] <jbicha> I need a little more direction on the wiki; I know MediaWiki syntax but what needs done? and who else is working on the wiki?
[15:15] <sbalneav> have a look at the edubuntu-users mailing list, I beleive we have a wiki-day coming up where interested people can kick in...
[15:15] <sbalneav> one sec, I'll get you the link.
[15:16] <sbalneav> At the moment, I believe no-one's working on the wiki.
[15:17] <sbalneav> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-users/2009-October/005698.html
[15:18] <jbicha> is https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ used or is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ the only wiki?
[15:19] <sbalneav> Not sure, I don't have much to do with the wiki.  I tend to plug away on the handbook, and do bug fixing.
[15:20] <sbalneav> Probably contact highvoltage.  He should be able to point you in the right direction.
[15:20] <jbicha> thanks
[15:28] <LaserJock> sbalneav: you realize that the fatal flaw with our plan is if Ubuntu LTS+1 is a total mess
[15:31] <alkisg> Won't edubuntu be aligned only with lts releases from now on?
[15:32] <LaserJock> alkisg: here was our plan from last night:
[15:32] <LaserJock> LTS (our primary release)
[15:32] <LaserJock> LTS+1 is maintenance, catch all the bugs we missed
[15:32] <LaserJock> LTS+2 start the new features
[15:32] <LaserJock> LTS+3 get things more-or-less in place
[15:32] <LaserJock> LTS+4 = LTS
[15:33] <LaserJock> now that seems like a good plan but Ubuntu is shifting underneath us every release
[15:34] <LaserJock> so my concern would be if Ubuntu had a not-so-good release for LTS+1 due to heavy feature development
[15:34] <LaserJock> while we're trying to do a maintenance type release
[15:35] <alkisg> I think most "new features" were put in 9.10, weren't they?
[15:35] <LaserJock> I'm not sure
[15:35] <LaserJock> 8.10 would be a LTS+1
[15:36] <LaserJock> I don't remember it being spectacular
[15:36] <LaserJock> probably not bad
[15:36] <alkisg> Doesn't that depend on upstream features?
[15:36] <alkisg> E.g. new xorg features, new kernel features etc?
[15:36] <LaserJock> a fair amount yes
[15:36] <LaserJock> but then Ubuntu, to some degree, picks and chooses what versions to use
[15:37] <LaserJock> for an LTS+1 they might be more adventurous :-)
[15:37]  * alkisg thinks edubuntu lacks more features than stability right now... :)
[15:37] <LaserJock> I don't know
[15:37] <LaserJock> we really haven't tested it thoroughly
[15:37] <LaserJock> in the past it's been pretty bug-ridden
[15:38] <alkisg> Sure, but we don't really have much to offer that ubuntu doesn't already offer... that's what I mean
[15:38] <LaserJock> sabayon completely unusable, gcompris having issues
[15:38] <LaserJock> well
[15:38] <LaserJock> but now we have a DVD
[15:38] <LaserJock> which means we have to consider all the installer issues
[15:38] <sbalneav> alkisg: So, I guess the question becomes, what SHOULD we offer, that we dont.
[15:38] <LaserJock> for better or worse we're now responsible for the *entire* OS stack
[15:39] <alkisg> LaserJock: I understand, I'm not saying that stability isn't important, of course it is. But to attract more people, shouldn't we put down a plan for features? (yeah I know we've been thought that talk many times before...)
[15:39] <LaserJock> yes
[15:40] <LaserJock> I think we should
[15:40] <alkisg> sbalneav: well, as a teacher, I'd like for edubuntu to offer me a simpler way to setup a lab.
[15:40] <LaserJock> but maybe not too much until LTS+1
[15:40] <alkisg> LTSP did that; that's why I started with Ubuntu in the first place
[15:40] <alkisg> Edubuntu could maybe fill the same need but for standalone installations
[15:40] <alkisg> (non-LTSP)
[15:40] <sbalneav> Well, define "Simpler way to set up a lab"
[15:41] <LaserJock> the other issue is that it takes many more hands to develop features than stabilize an existing set of features
[15:41] <sbalneav> What bits do we need that we're missing
[15:41] <alkisg> A way to setup packages in all the lab?
[15:41] <alkisg> A way to maintain users?
[15:41] <alkisg> Shared home folders?
[15:41] <alkisg> Something along those lines
[15:42] <sbalneav> All of those things are there right now.
[15:42] <alkisg> sbalneav, not for the teacher :(
[15:42] <sbalneav> Are you saying you want a CONTROL PANEL to do those things?
[15:42] <alkisg> They're there only for the experienced admin
[15:42] <sbalneav> We have to be specific about what we want.
[15:43] <sbalneav> "a way to maintain users" is pretty vague. :)
[15:43] <LaserJock> what I would simply *love* to see is 1) a list of the tasks and features that are needed for a school lab and 2) a list of the tasks and features that a home user (parent) needs
[15:43] <sbalneav> LaserJock++
[15:43] <sbalneav> right.
[15:43] <LaserJock> then we can match up how we're doing against the list
[15:43] <LaserJock> and try to fill in the gaps
[15:44] <LaserJock> but it's really hard to go on "make it easier"
[15:44] <LaserJock> partially because I'm not a teacher
[15:44] <alkisg> sbalneav: sure, it's vague. As a teacher, I don't know what the best way is for me to keep a list of e.g. 200 student accounts.
[15:44] <LaserJock> so I can only guess (thought I think I can make reasonable guesses)
[15:44] <alkisg> I'd like edubuntu to give me 1 solution for that; I don't know if it would be ldap/nfs or some other formula
[15:45] <LaserJock> right, see, I'd like to see the actual tasks
[15:45] <LaserJock> then we can work on the technologies needed to do it
[15:45] <sbalneav> alkisg: Sure, but you can probably give us an idea as to what it would look like.
[15:45] <alkisg> sbalneav: ok, for this specific part, here are my tech-side thoughts:
[15:45] <sbalneav> Or, what you'd LIKE it to look like.
[15:45] <alkisg> First, I thought about ldap/nfs. Then I thought that this would be really really difficult for a teacher to maintain
[15:46] <alkisg> Then, I thought about libpam-sshfs etc. This could easily work
[15:46] <alkisg> Now I'm thinking that may a "virtual-users" solution would be even easier (that needs a lot of explaining)
[15:46] <alkisg> (~= 1 user per PC, and the home folder mounted by sshfs)
[15:47] <alkisg> Now, as a teacher I wouldn't even care which of those solutions would be offered to me by edubuntu
[15:47] <alkisg> As long as it worked, and I could handle it, I wouldn't mind what it was called...
[15:48] <LaserJock> right
[15:48] <LaserJock> so if we had a list of tasks
[15:48] <LaserJock> which would could review current solutions for
[15:48] <LaserJock> assigning some level of "usability"
[15:48] <jbicha> a roadmap
[15:48] <sbalneav> Of all of those, the LDAP/NFS would be the EASIEST to maintain, as they simply require some meta packages.
[15:48] <LaserJock> we can then assess what areas need help or maybe there are some low-hanging-fruit
[15:49] <alkisg> I think that can be arranged, couldn't it? E.g. ask people to fill in the tasks that they'd like to see implemented in a wiki
[15:49] <sbalneav> LaserJock: Don't we have a "Desired Features" page somewhere?
[15:49] <LaserJock> probably, I don't know where
[15:49] <LaserJock> that's what I wanted to have the wiki cleanup for ....
[15:51] <alkisg> sbalneav: e.g. for ldap/nfs the teacher is going to ask: how do I add new users?
[15:51] <alkisg> If you tell him to create text files and run import commands, well, I think you lost him :)
[15:51] <LaserJock> couldn't we just throw a GUI on that?
[15:52] <sbalneav> alkisg: My first question is: are teachers allowed to/supposed to add users?
[15:52] <alkisg> Well, if edubuntu came with nfs/ldap integration and a gui, then I know many many teachers that would prefer it !
[15:52] <sbalneav> How do you maintain standards?  Don't school tech staff do this?
[15:52] <alkisg> sbalneav: yes, in most small schools the computer teacher is also the admin
[15:52] <alkisg> E.g. only a handful of schools here in greece are large enough to have tech staff
[15:53] <sbalneav> Ok, so it's just ONE teacher who does this, not every teacher in the school adding users willy-nilly.
[15:53] <alkisg> Yes
[15:54] <alkisg> At least here it's the teacher that "owns" the lab - other teacher may teach in that lab, but they don't have administration rights
[15:54] <sbalneav> As for a gui, I've already started work on a Python GUI for adding LDAP users.  And I have scripts for setting up standardized LDAP servers, and scripts for setting up NFS servers, etc.
[15:54] <alkisg> sbalneav: well, if you managed to add those to edubuntu, I think teachers would have a great reason to prefer it to plain ubuntu
[15:55] <sbalneav> The problem is, for me, as always, packaging.  However, LaserJock and I will be together in Maine next week, so I'm going to hopefully get all this answered.
[15:55] <sbalneav> I got Sabayon going for this go-round, for next go round, I want to create a:
[15:55] <sbalneav> edubuntu-ldap-server package, that creates a "standard" ldap server.
[15:56] <sbalneav> edubuntu-ldap-client package that is installed on ldap client machines.
[15:56] <sbalneav> edubuntu-nfs-server package, that creates a "standard" NFS server
[15:56] <sbalneav> edubuntu-nfs-client package, self explanatory.
[15:57] <sbalneav> and an edubuntu-ldap-guitools for the used/group program.
[15:57] <sbalneav> THEN
[15:57] <alkisg> That'd be perfect for the user administration problem :)
[15:57] <sbalneav> in the installer part of the DVD we could have a question:
[15:58] <sbalneav> "Do you want this to be a <whatever we call it> CLient, or server?
[15:58] <sbalneav> If you pick "server" then you get the ldap and NFS server packages installed.
[15:58]  * alkisg would also add a question for a standalone, home user pc
[15:58] <sbalneav> if it's a client, then it asks the hostname/ip of a server, and boom, you get shared home dirs and LDAP.
[15:59] <sbalneav> Well you need 3 choices.
[15:59] <sbalneav> Server, Client or Standalone
[15:59] <alkisg> sbalneav: that's exactly the choices I was describing for my "eduubuntu remix" :) Perfect match!
[15:59] <sbalneav> Now, all the actual PROGRAMMING bits to make this work, I've got in the bag.
[16:00] <sbalneav> how the heck we pull this off PACKAGING wise, I dunno.
[16:00] <sbalneav> f'rinstance.
[16:00] <sbalneav> Setting up an "edubuntu-ldap-server" package would require:
[16:00] <sbalneav> installing open-ldap
[16:01] <alkisg> Also, we could e.g. install italc-master in the server, and italc-client in the clients; or squid server on  the server, and automatically configure the clients with wap; etc
[16:01] <sbalneav> then buggering about with files in /etc to create a pre-configured "out of the box" LDAP schema.
[16:01] <sbalneav> but, according to what I've been able to glean, packaged are NOT supposed to bugger with stuff in /etc.
[16:01] <alkisg> Right. I hope LaserJock can help with those, he's the most experienced with packaging amongst us
[16:02] <sbalneav> so how we accomplish that, I dunno :)
[16:02] <alkisg> sbalneav: I think you can create symlinks to /var, and dynamically create configuration files there
[16:02] <alkisg> (at least I think what vagrantc once proposed to me)
[16:02] <sbalneav> that's where I fall apart.
[16:02] <sbalneav> that's the bits I don't know.
[16:03] <jbicha> some type of edubuntu-default-settings could be packaged separately than the more vanilla package
[16:03]  * alkisg last year got a set of scripts to automatically setup LTSP labs the way we want them. This year I'd like to automate the installation of an non-LTSP lab. From the next year I'd like to push as much of these methods/scripts as I can upstream.
[16:03] <sbalneav> Help me Obi-Wan-LaserJock, you're my only hope :)
[16:03]  * sbalneav straps cinnamon rolls to his head
[16:07] <LaserJock> lol
[16:07] <LaserJock> how does LTSP fit in the scheme of things regarding Sever, Client, Standalone?
[16:07] <LaserJock> is that a 4th option?
[16:08] <alkisg> Well, it's completely different, sure
[16:09] <alkisg> It doesn't need nfs, nor ldap
[16:09] <alkisg> I'm not even sure if classrooms using LTSP should be a target group for edubuntu anymore, now that ltsp is part of plain ubuntu
[16:10] <alkisg> I.e. they should be able to setup a lab with an ubuntu+ltsp installation, and an edubuntu-educational-packages installation on top of that
[16:10] <alkisg> They only setup a single computer after all, it doesn't take as much time as an entire classroom, they can affort to install things after the initial installation
[16:10] <sbalneav> Probably this is a tasksel thing we could pop up
[16:11] <sbalneav> like ubuntu-server does.
[16:11] <sbalneav> With tickoff's for:
[16:11] <sbalneav> LTSP server
[16:11] <sbalneav> Edubuntu LDAP server
[16:11] <sbalneav> Edubuntu NFS server
[16:11] <sbalneav> etc.
[16:12] <alkisg> LaserJock: can a tasksel create arbitrary /etc/configuration files?
[16:13] <alkisg> (I'm thinking that my set of scripts worked just fine for dozens of teachers... maybe scripts are also the way to go here, bundled in a nice gui)
[16:15] <LaserJock> well
[16:16] <LaserJock> it depends on the actual program more than the packaging
[16:16] <LaserJock> for instance apache is set up so that other packages can just drop in config files
[16:17] <LaserJock> the packaging rule is that no more than 1 package can "own" a file
[16:17] <LaserJock> and a package is not supposed to mess around with files that are owned by another package
[16:20] <LaserJock> as far as LTSP goes
[16:21] <alkisg> E.g. if the Edubuntu NFS server package wanted to add some *entries* to /etc/exports, how would it do that?
[16:21] <LaserJock> can a script be called to update it for you?
[16:21] <alkisg> Yes, of course, a postinst script, but is that an acceptable method?
[16:22] <LaserJock> no, I mean
[16:22] <LaserJock> can you run some script with an argument that does the updating
[16:23] <alkisg> I'm not sure I understand what you're saying... "you run" => me the user, or me the installation task?
[16:23] <LaserJock> whoever
[16:24] <LaserJock> ok, here's the way you get around the config file ownership
[16:24] <LaserJock> the package that owns the file provides a script to update the file
[16:24] <LaserJock> then other packages run that script in postinst with whatever values they want
[16:24] <LaserJock> for instance
[16:24] <LaserJock> /etc/passwd
[16:24] <LaserJock> we don't directly edit it
[16:24] <LaserJock> we run adduser and it does it for us
[16:25] <LaserJock> so it's perfectly find to run adduser in a postinst
[16:25] <LaserJock> *fine
[16:25] <alkisg> Here's another example, to make it more clear: if the ltsp installation package modified /etc/dhcpd/dhcp.conf, then when the dhcp3-server package was upgraded, the user would be prompted "do you want to install the new package maintainer version..." etc...
[16:25] <alkisg> So if we go ahead and modify files that belong to other packages, the user will be prompted for things he didn't manually edit himself
[16:26] <LaserJock> right
[16:26] <alkisg> Are we allowed to do that as part of a postinst script?
[16:27] <jbicha> will ShipIt be sending out Edubunu DVDs after Karmic is released?
[16:27] <LaserJock> jbicha: nope
[16:27] <jbicha> so I can take that link off the wiki, right?
[16:27] <LaserJock> alkisg: well, what we'd want to do is have some script in dhcp3-server that we could run to update /etc/dhcpd/dhcp.conf
[16:27] <LaserJock> jbicha: yep
[16:28] <LaserJock> all of this config file stuff can be handled, it's just a matter of how much work it would be "upstream"
[16:30] <sbalneav> OK, NFS can be handled with the "exportfs" utility, which allows us to add exports withoud modifying the file.
[16:30] <sbalneav> however, LDAP's a problem.
[16:30] <sbalneav> there's no "update-ldap-config" program that allows us to make the mods to the ldap programs.
[16:30] <LaserJock> right
[16:30] <sbalneav> sorry, ldap conf files.
[16:31] <LaserJock> so we'd want to coordinate with the Server team
[16:31] <LaserJock> and see if one could be added or how they'd recommend we proceed
[16:31] <LaserJock> the idea here is that the package that owns the file should know what's going on with it's file
[16:32] <LaserJock> also note that it's been a while since I read Policy about the config file thing
[16:32] <LaserJock> there could be some things I'm forgetting
[16:32] <alkisg> Even if the same package modified its configuration file, wouldn't the user still be prompted on upgrade?
[16:33] <LaserJock> depends
[16:33] <LaserJock> we'd need to look at the details I think
[16:33] <LaserJock> not all config files are Debian config files :-)
[16:34] <alkisg> Right
[16:34] <LaserJock> but it *is* possible for other packages to change the configuration
[16:35] <LaserJock> apache for example
[16:35] <LaserJock> and many others
[16:35] <LaserJock> but often it requires modification to the original package, which is why coordination with the team that takes care of that package is needed
[16:35]  * alkisg is sorry but he has to leave to get his kids to a cartoon lesson :-/ Thanks a lot guys, that seemed to be just in the right direction for me..
[17:50] <jbicha> I hate this MoinMoin wiki thing, I think MediaWiki's easier
[17:52] <sbalneav> Well, we've got what we've got.
[17:54] <LaserJock> I go back and forth on the wikis
[17:54] <LaserJock> I'm more used to Moin so I find it easier
[17:55] <LaserJock> I think it's also more secure
[17:55] <LaserJock> but MediaWiki seems faster and more people know it
[18:10] <jbicha> for instance if I wanted to create a draftpage for feedback before changing a page, I'd have to upload all of the images all over again
[18:13] <alkisg> Yeah mediawiki has a lot more devs behind it that support it...
[18:24] <LaserJock> I think the only thing I like better is that you can edit particular sections
[18:50] <jbicha> here's a reorganization of the main wikipage I was working on http://imagebin.org/67787
[19:00] <jbicha> can I just make changes or do I need to get approval first?
[19:02] <LaserJock> jbicha: I'm taking a look
[19:03] <LaserJock> jbicha: under community what is the "Volunteer" link for?
[19:03] <LaserJock> Volunteers rather
[19:03] <jbicha> for people who aren't official Edubuntu Members yet
[19:04] <jbicha> a place for people to show what they're working on
[19:04] <LaserJock> I'd tend to favor ditching the "Volunteers" and putting that in "Teams" maybe
[19:05] <jbicha> that could work if we have teams
[19:05] <LaserJock> it just  makes it look like there are Volunteers and non-Volunteers (i.e. Members, Edubuntu Council, etc.)
[19:05] <Lns> ugh..ubuntu wiki is dead slow
[19:05] <LaserJock> and everybody is a volunteer
[19:05] <jbicha> that would be less confusing with the other use of Volunteer on that page
[19:05] <jbicha> ok
[19:05] <LaserJock> so I think it's maybe a not great distinction
[19:06] <LaserJock> if we wanted a page like that I think Contributors would maybe be a better wording
[19:06] <LaserJock> but it seems like people would show off what they're working on on their individual wiki pages and on the relevant team pages
[19:07] <jbicha> encourage teamwork
[19:08] <LaserJock> I kind of like using Volunteer in in the 3rd column
[19:08] <LaserJock> I would maybe change ReportBugs to just Bugs
[19:08] <LaserJock> we could discuss both reporting and triaging
[19:08] <LaserJock> Suggest is great, we can link that to brainstorm
[19:09] <LaserJock> under Help I think the Cookbook is dead, we probably don't want to link to that
[19:09] <jbicha> it's a little funny though, things you can do to help out, you can develop, document, or bug the developers
[19:09] <LaserJock> About looks great too
[19:10] <LaserJock> jbicha: what about Support under Volunteer?
[19:10] <LaserJock> jbicha: we could have places that people can help give user support
[19:10] <LaserJock> but I'm not sure if that would sort of overlap with Campaign or not
[19:11] <jbicha> campaigning and supporting are different
[19:13] <LaserJock> maybe "Help" should be "Get Help"
[19:13] <LaserJock> as Help could also mean "help out Edubuntu"
[19:13] <LaserJock> so maybe be firm with "this is where you go to get help"
[19:23] <jbicha> what would supporting by volunteering look like?
[19:24] <sbalneav> Cookbook --> Handbook
[19:26] <jbicha> is handbook the same thing as your DocBook work?
[19:27] <LaserJock> jbicha: well, I think it would be good to have people who volunteer to help out with this channel and the edubuntu-users list giving help to people
[19:27] <LaserJock> jbicha: and I want to recognize people who are already doing a stand-up job doing that
[19:27] <jbicha> that's good
[19:28] <LaserJock> I want to say that it is a legitimate and worthwhile form of contribution to Edubuntu
[19:28] <LaserJock> so something like "Hey, volunteer in our support team by trying to answer email questions within 24hrs"
[19:29] <LaserJock> or maybe we can have a list of volunteers who are willing to take questions on particular subjects
[19:29] <LaserJock> who's a good person to talk to about internationalization, LTSP fat clients, LDAP, edu apps, etc.
[19:36] <jbicha> updated version: http://imagebin.org/67797
[19:41] <LaserJock> jbicha: hmm, I just noticed something
[19:41] <LaserJock> jbicha: we have the column headers as links
[19:41] <LaserJock> I wonder if we really want that
[19:42] <LaserJock> it seems to me as if we're listing underneath the headings the actual entry points we want people to go to
[19:42] <jbicha> that's how it used to be but it's probably not that useful
[19:43] <LaserJock> jbicha: looks great though
[19:44] <LaserJock> jbicha: you ready to make that "live"?
[19:44] <jbicha> sure
[19:45] <LaserJock> awesome
[19:45] <jbicha> done, now I just have to fix all the new broken links https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu
[19:46] <LaserJock> k
[19:46] <LaserJock> I'm working up the edubuntu-docs upload
[19:47] <LaserJock> and then I guess I'll be working on the wiki mostly
[20:03] <LaserJock> jbicha: are you planning on creating all new pages for all those links?
[20:04] <LaserJock> it might be better to "repurpose" existing pages or as a first step link to them
[20:04] <jbicha> I've already moved a couple pages
[20:05] <jbicha> existing pages are a good headstart
[20:10] <LaserJock> we need to be a bit careful about moving pages around
[20:10] <LaserJock> especially if the existing pages have had external links to them
[20:11] <LaserJock> jbicha: why are you using Document instead of Documentation?
[20:11] <jbicha> because I liked verbs
[20:12] <LaserJock> hmm
[20:13] <LaserJock> I understand where you're coming from on that
[20:13] <LaserJock> but it's a bit of a gratuitous move
[20:13] <alkisg> (it also points to a non-existing location, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/%5CDocument)
[20:13] <alkisg> (I mean the backslash there)
[20:14] <jbicha> ok, Documentation is probably a better term, but what if I pipe it with Document so the Volunteer verbs match
[20:22] <LaserJock> jbicha: sure
[20:30] <Lns>  For anyone interested, I just created a howto on creating shared Gnome desktops for users: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/SharedDesktops - any input appreciated
[20:45] <LaserJock> jbicha: we generally don't recommend just mass moving wiki pages, especially without much discussion
[20:46] <LaserJock> jbicha: are you just moving things to be inline with the front page?
[20:47] <jbicha> yes, but I could slow down
[20:47] <LaserJock> jbicha: why don't we just link FAQ to the help.ubuntu.com page
[20:47] <LaserJock> jbicha: we don't need to have a separate copy I don't think
[20:48] <jbicha> I'm confused by the 2 wikis
[20:48] <LaserJock> jbicha: ultimately I don't think anything under Get Help should be on wiki.ubuntu.com
[20:48] <LaserJock> wiki.ubuntu.com is for development purposes
[20:48] <LaserJock> to help developer and contributors organize themselves, etc.
[20:48] <LaserJock> a place to put feature specifications, task lists, organize teams, etc.
[20:49] <LaserJock> help.ubuntu.com/community is specifically  just about end-user documentation, help, and support
[20:49] <LaserJock> so FAQ and Guides should maybe point to help.ubuntu.com
[20:50] <LaserJock> and Contact and Get Support should link to pages on edubuntu.org
[20:50] <LaserJock> that way we don't have to maintain multiple copies of things
[20:50] <jbicha> ok, I'll redirect those
[20:51] <LaserJock> you don't need to redirect
[20:51] <LaserJock> just link
[20:51] <LaserJock> or maybe that's what you meant
[20:52] <jbicha> the DownloadRedirect was a redirect so I thought that was how it was supposed to be done
[20:52] <jbicha> but direct link makes more sense
[21:09] <jbicha> a lot of the things under Volunteer are duplicated by the various Teams
[21:15] <LaserJock> jbicha: well, that's a good thing
[21:16] <LaserJock> but I think perhaps we should maybe do things a bit differently
[21:17] <LaserJock> the Edubuntu/Teams page is done using includes
[21:17] <LaserJock> so you have to create a wiki page for each team, and then it's all pulled in by the Teams page
[21:18] <LaserJock> I think it would work better to have a single Teams page that talks about the relevant teams
[21:19] <LaserJock> and then have the Volunteer pages as the concrete "this is how to get involved and contribute" pages
[21:20] <LaserJock> or I suppose we could keep the includes (it seems a tad messy to me) but we shouldn't have that many pages
[21:21] <LaserJock> it seems like it would be easier to just edit the one page than to mess with a whole sub-hierarchy of them
[21:25] <jbicha> the Teams page could be a short description of the various teams on 1 page
[21:25] <jbicha> & the Volunteer pages be the actual pages with what's being worked on now, what help is needed, and future goals ?
[21:29] <LaserJock> basically
[21:43] <jbicha> why were all the pages created with a Edubuntu/WikiSite/ prefix? isn't the WikiSite redundant?
[21:43] <LaserJock> well
[21:44] <LaserJock> those come from your "predecessor"
[21:44] <jbicha> is he gone for good?
[21:44] <LaserJock> there was a guy who was working on a wiki cleanup the last couple months
[21:44] <jbicha> I read through last month's mailing list earlier
[21:44] <LaserJock> and what he was going to do I believe is move everything into Edubuntu/WikiSite/ , get everything arranged, and then go back and remove the /WikiSite/ part
[21:45] <LaserJock> well, he said he's gone for good
[21:45] <LaserJock> I hope he comes back at some point
[21:46] <LaserJock> there are a few useful pages in /WikiSite/
[21:46] <LaserJock> I was hoping we could use it to put stuff that can be used in other wiki pages
[21:46] <LaserJock> like images and headers
[21:47] <LaserJock> and you could put a SiteMap there too for instance
[22:07] <jbicha> thanks for the help; I believe I'm done for today
[22:09] <LaserJock> jbicha: thanks for the contribution