[02:30] hmm [02:30] I just got an email from somebody wanting to get teacher training for Edubuntu [02:57] heh [03:07] I've gotten quite a rash of people asking for help/info === greeneggsnospam is now known as jsgotangco [03:07] LaserJock: same as well, i get emails complaining about the wiki and manuals [03:08] oh? [03:08] you know, JBoss got started as a business because people wanted training on it, and the guy who wrote it just started holding training [03:08] just saying [03:08] I don't get so many of those [03:08] right [03:08] I just don't know what to do with it [03:08] LaserJock: i could update the manual though [03:08] but it would take a while [03:08] I'd like to shove it Canonical's way and say "hey, people want some training" [03:09] and i probably won't touch anything i don't know (like ltsp) [03:09] dinda might have some thoughts [03:09] i kind of average like 500 words a day in technical writing lately so it shouldn't take that much to update it for next release [03:10] i wouldn't commit to anything for this release though [03:14] I do wish people would step up and work on docs in general [03:14] it's got a fairly low barrier to entry [03:14] are you going to UDS? [03:15] nope [03:15] have to work unfortunately [03:15] i have a question though [03:15] but I am going to the LTSP hackfest at the end of the month [03:15] after this release [03:15] what's the roadmap? [03:16] good question [03:17] I think it's going to depend quite a bit on where people step up [03:17] I know I'm a broken record, but I can't keep this up really [03:17] yeah [03:17] for Karmic we succeeded in creating a DVD [03:17] that's awesome [03:17] sbalneav also fixed sabayon, big win there [03:18] let's be slackware then :) [03:18] but beyond that I'm not sure where we've moved forward much [03:18] so I have a decent Roadmap in my mind for Edubuntu [03:18] that's probably a good start [03:18] but it involves more people than just me implementing it [03:19] do you have it in a wiki? [03:19] or a brainstorming wiki for starters [03:19] well, we've had bits here and there [03:19] LaserJock: aren't the LTSP hackfests right there in boston? [03:19] Maine [03:19] whoa, you even got jerome in here talking [03:20] I will be in Maine next week to start my bike trip [03:20] nixternal: its just 10:20am here so I am active at this time [03:20] jsgotangco: the problem seems to be not so much in the creating of plans but the implementation [03:20] I don't care what time it is, I am never active [03:20] LaserJock: i a gree [03:20] once I start talking about plans then it seems like things derail a bit [03:20] LaserJock: although if we are successful in some ways for this release [03:20] maybe we could "freeze" that and fix the other stuff [03:21] people all have a different idea of what Edubuntu is or should be, etc. [03:21] considering there isn't a lot of manpower [03:21] well, there's just a heck of a lot that needs to be done [03:21] it never ends [03:22] even just on the packaging/installer level, not counting things like docs, the website, etc. [03:23] LaserJock: but since the UI doesn't change much or is just dependent on Gnome doc updates won't take a big chunk of work which I am committing for next [03:23] LaserJock: honestly we need a pm [03:23] jsgotangco: I'm somewhat of a mind to just have everybody create their own roadmap [03:24] Hi there.... I'm having some difficulties with LTSP / USB sticks - anyone here who knows a bit about that? [03:24] then put them all together and stick it on the wiki somewhere [03:24] pacifica: you might want to try #ltsp [03:24] LaserJock: then let's do a virtual sprint just to identify though [03:24] jsgotangco: as in project manager? [03:24] yes [03:25] (nobody home in #ltsp) [03:25] you can't promise 100 people their 100 requests [03:25] jsgotangco: no [03:25] jsgotangco: I was really hoping Canonical could spring for a project manager [03:25] so let's list them down and prioritize [03:25] I was hoping 1/2 time project manager 1/2 project engineer [03:26] well if in the extreme case [03:26] you can start forking the whole project and still use LP, etc. [03:28] we don't need that [03:28] we just need somebody with time [03:28] I could do pm if I had ~4hrs/day to devote to it [03:28] like i said its in the extreme case that this is still gennting snubbed at [03:28] getting [03:29] so far Canonical has just left us alone [03:29] they don't seem anti-Edubuntu, the're just not putting any people towards it [03:29] *they're [03:30] well i don't see the point of you putting so much effort into something they don't care enough [03:32] well, whether Canonical cares or not shouldn't matter in the end should it? [03:32] Edubuntu is for its users more than for Canonical I'd think [03:32] it does [03:32] they still ride on to your effort without doing anything [03:32] I don't know that they are riding on it though [03:33] they still get word of mouth [03:33] I believe they've stopped selling support for it [03:33] I suppose, but probably less than other Ubuntu derivatives [03:33] they're still giving us a fair amount of support [03:33] just not people [03:34] I still get to have cjwatson figure out the .iso building, that's a great help [03:35] in any case [03:35] don't get me wrong its just my opinion like I said I would commit to the next release [03:35] it is what it is [03:36] of we stick to DVD then let's stick to that for next [03:36] Mark and the Canonical executives get to determine where they put their money [03:36] and we just have to deal with it [03:36] oh im aware its a business (i run one myself) [03:39] jsgotangco: so how do you run a successful project when nobody has full time (or really even part-time) effort? [03:40] it depends on how you measure your goals [03:40] if your issue is manpower then you shouldn't offer too much on the table [03:41] nobody complained about slackware being maintained by 1 person [03:44] sure, but that 1 person did a whole lot [03:47] how do you think the ubuntustudio folks manage? is there an active community behind it? [03:47] sorta [03:47] I think they're sort of in a similar situation [03:48] either you have 1 strong person that can keep everything together or things just seem to fall apart [03:49] are you comfortable with that position of a strong man? [03:49] strong man of the project rather [03:50] I don't have time for it no [03:51] ok let's change the topic towards this release [03:51] since we have a dvd in the works and we're confident of a release [03:52] does it make sense to stick to that release and not introduce anything spectacular for next and istead focus on community building again [03:53] I think we have to do more [03:53] we've got a DVD, but barely [03:53] do more feature wise? [03:53] well, somewhat [03:53] more fixing things so they are done properly [03:54] right now I'm removing all gdm theming from our artwork package [03:54] because GDM has changed and I don't have time to figure out how to make a proper theme for it [03:54] so its more of integrating bits and pieces already set in place to have coherence and consistency rather than introducing a different way [03:54] yeah, I would say more so [03:55] definitely that should be the priority, IMO [03:55] there are things like Sugar, Qimo, and some cool telepathy stuff nubae has been working on that I'd love to see included [03:55] but we need to get the basics down first, IMO [03:57] we should list them down then and set priorities [03:57] so we can tell the community what we can and what we can't and need help [03:57] can do / can't do [03:57] yep [03:58] ok for this release (9.10), what do we need to do [03:59] 1) make sure DVD works (especially text-based installer) [03:59] 2) update edubuntu-artwork and edubuntu-docs to 9.10 [03:59] 3) write release notes and release announcement [03:59] 4) update edubuntu.org with new info [03:59] I'm working on 1) and 2) presently [04:00] okay i'll also do 1) point me to where to download [04:00] i can draft 3) [04:00] isn't 2) take some work though? [04:01] 1) http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/dvd/ but wait until the 14th build is done [04:01] 13th is known bad [04:01] okay [04:01] 2) has taken my entire day almost, yes [04:01] shit its a dvd [04:01] lol [04:02] ill wait for 14 [04:04] Eveing all [04:04] hi [04:05] Hey hey. [04:05] So, we talking about "what's next"? [04:06] kinda yeah [04:06] and how to make the project work [04:08] I've spent too much time again in the last 2 weeks [04:08] chasing down problems and trying to get karmic out the door [04:08] and in the mean time I'm getting quite a few emails about Edubuntu [04:08] it seems like the user demand is out there [04:09] Lets do this. You're going to be at the hackfest, yes? [04:09] teach me packaging. [04:09] I'm so *very* limited in what I can do. I understand the upstream stuff, but the packaging I'm lost with. [04:10] I feel I could make more of a difference if I knew what I was doing. [04:12] right [04:12] so 2 things I want to do during hackfest [04:13] 1) write down everything I think needs to be done for Edubuntu 1.04 and what I'm willing to do [04:13] 2) teach sbalneav how to package [04:13] sbalneav: so i was proposing that whatever gets released for this month, we don't apply radical changes for next and focus on cohesion and consistency [04:13] I'm a tad concerned that people will lose interest if we don't have something new to give them [04:14] we haven't done much radically new in a year or so [04:14] im more concred if what you give to them isn't stable for long term use [04:14] this release we moved from add-on to DVD, but it's still the same apps [04:14] gotta take dog for walk, bbiab [04:16] ok [04:16] jsgotangco: I'd tend to agree. I think if we give people a SOLID product, with most of the bugs beaten out of it, with a GOOD handbook, that'd be a winner. [04:18] Obviously, we can't do much about base ubuntu: whatever bling gets put in there, is what we'll get by default. [04:29] yeah [04:30] i tend to stick to the mindset that edubuntu users aren't that much interested on 6 month release cycle changes [04:31] sbalneav: note that now that we're a DVD we don't necessarily have to stick to Ubuntu [04:31] yes! let's use enlightenment then! lol [04:32] kidding [04:32] :D [04:37] Stick to Ubuntu's release cycle, you mean? [04:55] sbalneav: no, I mean stick to Ubuntu's apps [04:55] we're more stuck with Ubuntu's release cycle [04:57] does it make sense we won't stick to the next cycle and focus on improvements to 9.10? [04:59] well, 10.04 is a LTS [04:59] seems like a good time to me [04:59] Well, I was hoping we'd get THIS one out the door as the "preview", and really hammer down for 10.04, which should be an LTS release. [05:00] right [05:00] but we more-or-less have to release every 6 months [05:00] we can call it whatever we like [05:01] Do we "have" to? [05:01] basically [05:01] i agree with sbalneav though [05:01] hm. [05:01] our packages are going to get re-synced every 6 months [05:01] things need to be maintained [05:01] I would call the non-LTS releases maintenance releases [05:01] ok, but we target any "big features" we want only for LTS releases. [05:02] sure [05:02] we're free to target however we want [05:02] and like I said, we're free to call the releases whatever we need to [05:02] but we do need to actually "release", IMO [05:02] ok [05:03] we could call them Development Previews or something [05:04] what if we stick to LTS [05:04] but part of the problem is that the "big" features" often take more than 1 release [05:04] 1 release to plan [05:04] 1 release to implement first round [05:04] 1 release to polish [05:04] if I had my way the way we'd do releases would be the following (I think): [05:05] LTS (our primary release) [05:05] LTS+1 is maintenance, catch all the bugs we missed [05:05] LTS+2 start the new features [05:05] LTS+3 get things more-or-less in place [05:05] LTS+4 = LTS [05:06] LaserJock+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [05:06] I agree [05:06] ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [05:06] ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [05:06] we stick to LTS [05:06] How can you tell I like this idea. [05:06] Document this NOW. [05:07] lol [05:08] I think I could even get it down to a general TODO or checklist for each one of those [05:08] you get LTS updates along the way [05:08] and piggyback with a stable release [05:09] ok, I need to get to bed [05:09] k [05:09] let me think about it some and write up a proposal of sorts [05:09] outlining a bit more what each of those stages would entail [05:10] I got edubuntu-artwork uploaded [05:10] edubuntu-docs is tomorrow and I hope we're done for uploads [05:10] g'night everybody [05:10] later [05:10] good chat [12:24] I think I'd like to learn packaging also if someone has the time and there's a need [14:40] Morning all [14:42] good morning [15:03] I'd like to help with edubuntu; is there a list of things that needs done? [15:05] Well, you can always start by fixing bugs. [15:06] I don't think I know enough programming for that yet [15:06] Hold on, I'll get you the URL with the list of package bugs. [15:06] ok [15:06] Well, what skills do you have? [15:08] packaging or documentation sound interesting [15:08] Well, packaging requires programming. [15:08] As for documentation, you could help with the wiki, or contribute to the handbook [15:08] Do you know DocBook XML? [15:09] no, but it's not that difficult, is it? [15:09] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~edubuntu-bugs/+packagebugs [15:10] Probably the best bet would be to start in on the wiki, then. [15:12] I need a little more direction on the wiki; I know MediaWiki syntax but what needs done? and who else is working on the wiki? [15:15] have a look at the edubuntu-users mailing list, I beleive we have a wiki-day coming up where interested people can kick in... [15:15] one sec, I'll get you the link. [15:16] At the moment, I believe no-one's working on the wiki. [15:17] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-users/2009-October/005698.html [15:18] is https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ used or is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ the only wiki? [15:19] Not sure, I don't have much to do with the wiki. I tend to plug away on the handbook, and do bug fixing. [15:20] Probably contact highvoltage. He should be able to point you in the right direction. [15:20] thanks [15:28] sbalneav: you realize that the fatal flaw with our plan is if Ubuntu LTS+1 is a total mess [15:31] Won't edubuntu be aligned only with lts releases from now on? [15:32] alkisg: here was our plan from last night: [15:32] LTS (our primary release) [15:32] LTS+1 is maintenance, catch all the bugs we missed [15:32] LTS+2 start the new features [15:32] LTS+3 get things more-or-less in place [15:32] LTS+4 = LTS [15:33] now that seems like a good plan but Ubuntu is shifting underneath us every release [15:34] so my concern would be if Ubuntu had a not-so-good release for LTS+1 due to heavy feature development [15:34] while we're trying to do a maintenance type release [15:35] I think most "new features" were put in 9.10, weren't they? [15:35] I'm not sure [15:35] 8.10 would be a LTS+1 [15:36] I don't remember it being spectacular [15:36] probably not bad [15:36] Doesn't that depend on upstream features? [15:36] E.g. new xorg features, new kernel features etc? [15:36] a fair amount yes [15:36] but then Ubuntu, to some degree, picks and chooses what versions to use [15:37] for an LTS+1 they might be more adventurous :-) [15:37] * alkisg thinks edubuntu lacks more features than stability right now... :) [15:37] I don't know [15:37] we really haven't tested it thoroughly [15:37] in the past it's been pretty bug-ridden [15:38] Sure, but we don't really have much to offer that ubuntu doesn't already offer... that's what I mean [15:38] sabayon completely unusable, gcompris having issues [15:38] well [15:38] but now we have a DVD [15:38] which means we have to consider all the installer issues [15:38] alkisg: So, I guess the question becomes, what SHOULD we offer, that we dont. [15:38] for better or worse we're now responsible for the *entire* OS stack [15:39] LaserJock: I understand, I'm not saying that stability isn't important, of course it is. But to attract more people, shouldn't we put down a plan for features? (yeah I know we've been thought that talk many times before...) [15:39] yes [15:40] I think we should [15:40] sbalneav: well, as a teacher, I'd like for edubuntu to offer me a simpler way to setup a lab. [15:40] but maybe not too much until LTS+1 [15:40] LTSP did that; that's why I started with Ubuntu in the first place [15:40] Edubuntu could maybe fill the same need but for standalone installations [15:40] (non-LTSP) [15:40] Well, define "Simpler way to set up a lab" [15:41] the other issue is that it takes many more hands to develop features than stabilize an existing set of features [15:41] What bits do we need that we're missing [15:41] A way to setup packages in all the lab? [15:41] A way to maintain users? [15:41] Shared home folders? [15:41] Something along those lines [15:42] All of those things are there right now. [15:42] sbalneav, not for the teacher :( [15:42] Are you saying you want a CONTROL PANEL to do those things? [15:42] They're there only for the experienced admin [15:42] We have to be specific about what we want. [15:43] "a way to maintain users" is pretty vague. :) [15:43] what I would simply *love* to see is 1) a list of the tasks and features that are needed for a school lab and 2) a list of the tasks and features that a home user (parent) needs [15:43] LaserJock++ [15:43] right. [15:43] then we can match up how we're doing against the list [15:43] and try to fill in the gaps [15:44] but it's really hard to go on "make it easier" [15:44] partially because I'm not a teacher [15:44] sbalneav: sure, it's vague. As a teacher, I don't know what the best way is for me to keep a list of e.g. 200 student accounts. [15:44] so I can only guess (thought I think I can make reasonable guesses) [15:44] I'd like edubuntu to give me 1 solution for that; I don't know if it would be ldap/nfs or some other formula [15:45] right, see, I'd like to see the actual tasks [15:45] then we can work on the technologies needed to do it [15:45] alkisg: Sure, but you can probably give us an idea as to what it would look like. [15:45] sbalneav: ok, for this specific part, here are my tech-side thoughts: [15:45] Or, what you'd LIKE it to look like. [15:45] First, I thought about ldap/nfs. Then I thought that this would be really really difficult for a teacher to maintain [15:46] Then, I thought about libpam-sshfs etc. This could easily work [15:46] Now I'm thinking that may a "virtual-users" solution would be even easier (that needs a lot of explaining) [15:46] (~= 1 user per PC, and the home folder mounted by sshfs) [15:47] Now, as a teacher I wouldn't even care which of those solutions would be offered to me by edubuntu [15:47] As long as it worked, and I could handle it, I wouldn't mind what it was called... [15:48] right [15:48] so if we had a list of tasks [15:48] which would could review current solutions for [15:48] assigning some level of "usability" [15:48] a roadmap [15:48] Of all of those, the LDAP/NFS would be the EASIEST to maintain, as they simply require some meta packages. [15:48] we can then assess what areas need help or maybe there are some low-hanging-fruit [15:49] I think that can be arranged, couldn't it? E.g. ask people to fill in the tasks that they'd like to see implemented in a wiki [15:49] LaserJock: Don't we have a "Desired Features" page somewhere? [15:49] probably, I don't know where [15:49] that's what I wanted to have the wiki cleanup for .... [15:51] sbalneav: e.g. for ldap/nfs the teacher is going to ask: how do I add new users? [15:51] If you tell him to create text files and run import commands, well, I think you lost him :) [15:51] couldn't we just throw a GUI on that? [15:52] alkisg: My first question is: are teachers allowed to/supposed to add users? [15:52] Well, if edubuntu came with nfs/ldap integration and a gui, then I know many many teachers that would prefer it ! [15:52] How do you maintain standards? Don't school tech staff do this? [15:52] sbalneav: yes, in most small schools the computer teacher is also the admin [15:52] E.g. only a handful of schools here in greece are large enough to have tech staff [15:53] Ok, so it's just ONE teacher who does this, not every teacher in the school adding users willy-nilly. [15:53] Yes [15:54] At least here it's the teacher that "owns" the lab - other teacher may teach in that lab, but they don't have administration rights [15:54] As for a gui, I've already started work on a Python GUI for adding LDAP users. And I have scripts for setting up standardized LDAP servers, and scripts for setting up NFS servers, etc. [15:54] sbalneav: well, if you managed to add those to edubuntu, I think teachers would have a great reason to prefer it to plain ubuntu [15:55] The problem is, for me, as always, packaging. However, LaserJock and I will be together in Maine next week, so I'm going to hopefully get all this answered. [15:55] I got Sabayon going for this go-round, for next go round, I want to create a: [15:55] edubuntu-ldap-server package, that creates a "standard" ldap server. [15:56] edubuntu-ldap-client package that is installed on ldap client machines. [15:56] edubuntu-nfs-server package, that creates a "standard" NFS server [15:56] edubuntu-nfs-client package, self explanatory. [15:57] and an edubuntu-ldap-guitools for the used/group program. [15:57] THEN [15:57] That'd be perfect for the user administration problem :) [15:57] in the installer part of the DVD we could have a question: [15:58] "Do you want this to be a CLient, or server? [15:58] If you pick "server" then you get the ldap and NFS server packages installed. [15:58] * alkisg would also add a question for a standalone, home user pc [15:58] if it's a client, then it asks the hostname/ip of a server, and boom, you get shared home dirs and LDAP. [15:59] Well you need 3 choices. [15:59] Server, Client or Standalone [15:59] sbalneav: that's exactly the choices I was describing for my "eduubuntu remix" :) Perfect match! [15:59] Now, all the actual PROGRAMMING bits to make this work, I've got in the bag. [16:00] how the heck we pull this off PACKAGING wise, I dunno. [16:00] f'rinstance. [16:00] Setting up an "edubuntu-ldap-server" package would require: [16:00] installing open-ldap [16:01] Also, we could e.g. install italc-master in the server, and italc-client in the clients; or squid server on the server, and automatically configure the clients with wap; etc [16:01] then buggering about with files in /etc to create a pre-configured "out of the box" LDAP schema. [16:01] but, according to what I've been able to glean, packaged are NOT supposed to bugger with stuff in /etc. [16:01] Right. I hope LaserJock can help with those, he's the most experienced with packaging amongst us [16:02] so how we accomplish that, I dunno :) [16:02] sbalneav: I think you can create symlinks to /var, and dynamically create configuration files there [16:02] (at least I think what vagrantc once proposed to me) [16:02] that's where I fall apart. [16:02] that's the bits I don't know. [16:03] some type of edubuntu-default-settings could be packaged separately than the more vanilla package [16:03] * alkisg last year got a set of scripts to automatically setup LTSP labs the way we want them. This year I'd like to automate the installation of an non-LTSP lab. From the next year I'd like to push as much of these methods/scripts as I can upstream. [16:03] Help me Obi-Wan-LaserJock, you're my only hope :) [16:03] * sbalneav straps cinnamon rolls to his head [16:07] lol [16:07] how does LTSP fit in the scheme of things regarding Sever, Client, Standalone? [16:07] is that a 4th option? [16:08] Well, it's completely different, sure [16:09] It doesn't need nfs, nor ldap [16:09] I'm not even sure if classrooms using LTSP should be a target group for edubuntu anymore, now that ltsp is part of plain ubuntu [16:10] I.e. they should be able to setup a lab with an ubuntu+ltsp installation, and an edubuntu-educational-packages installation on top of that [16:10] They only setup a single computer after all, it doesn't take as much time as an entire classroom, they can affort to install things after the initial installation [16:10]