sbalneavEvening all03:40
LaserJocksbalneav: around still?04:01
sbalneavI surely am04:02
sbalneavWant me on pidgin?04:03
LaserJocksbalneav: no, that's fine04:03
LaserJocksbalneav: I need a script04:04
sbalneavWhatcha need?04:04
LaserJocksbalneav: just something that will s/foo/bar/ in all the files in a directory (that has several directories)04:04
sbalneavRecursive find and replace?04:04
sbalneavThat should be a one-liner.04:05
LaserJocksbalneav: also look what I did this evening: http://paste.ubuntu.com/293624/04:05
LaserJocksbalneav: I know, but .... I'm a chemist04:05
sbalneavHoly crap04:05
sbalneavlemme just test, but it should be:04:06
sbalneavfind . -exec sed -i -e 's/foo/bar/g' {} \;04:06
sbalneavbut lemme test that.04:06
sbalneavfind . -type f -exec sed -i -e 's/bar/hhhhh/g' {} \;04:08
sbalneavto explain:04:08
sbalneavfind, in the current directory (.) recursively, all regular files (-type f) and execute on them the command "sed -i (edit file in place) -e (expression) " on the file you found ({}) and \; terminates the find.04:10
LaserJockI was close04:10
LaserJockI missed the -i and -e on sed04:11
sbalneavJust in case you MIGHT want to take a backup of all the files in the hierarchy.04:11
LaserJockI pretty much had the find part ok04:11
sbalneav'cuz you can never have enough backups.04:11
sbalneavSo, that's all the wiki pages you've touched tonight?04:13
LaserJocksbalneav: not hardly04:15
LaserJocksbalneav: that's the list of wiki pages we have04:15
LaserJocksomewhat organized04:15
sbalneavWell, thats great.04:16
sbalneavI could start poking about.04:16
sbalneavMy time's better spent packaging.04:17
sbalneavand bug fixing04:17
sbalneavand getting the ldap tools written.04:17
LaserJockI did delete a bunch of pages tonight04:18
LaserJockwoot \o/04:19
LaserJockthe DVD works again04:19
jsgotangcoLaserJock: should i download the latest?05:05
LaserJockjsgotangco: yes!05:06
dayaogra, hi just a quick question, for ltsp shall I install alternate cd (9.04) only for both desktop ver and it07:38
dayaI mean do I need to install desktop ver and then alternate cd or only alternate cd07:39
alkisg_workdaya: only the alternate07:53
alkisg_workPress F4 when it starts and select "install an ltsp server"07:53
dayaalkisg_work, ok thanks a lot08:04
alkisg_workstgraber: Hello! I'm on a "free day" on the school lab, so I got much time to experiment. For the italc bug (didn't try gdb yet): on most clients I'm getting "<unknown>: Fatal IO error 14 (Bad address) on X server :0.0" which doesn't help much, but on one particular client I got a more specific "*** glibc detected *** ica: corrupted double-linked list: 0x0a3abe30 ***" bug: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/293711/08:39
alkisg_workI tried running `gdb ica` on one client, and after 1 minute of demo mode it crashed with the same "Fatal IO" error, but gdb didn't report any additional info except for a [Thread xxx exited].08:45
ubottuSorry, I don't know anything about italc-client09:18
alkisg_work!info italc-client09:18
ubottuitalc-client (source: italc): Intelligent Teaching and Learning with Computers. In component main, is optional. Version 1: (jaunty), package size 498 kB, installed size 1268 kB09:18
* alkisg_work downloads the italc .ddeb to try to get a usable backtrace...09:28
* alkisg_work sees that running the previous version of the program with gdb made the problem disappear! Arghhh :(09:45
=== alkisg_work1 is now known as alkisg_work
=== alkisg_work is now known as alkisg
=== juliux_ is now known as juliux
sbalneavMorning LaserJock14:57
LaserJockmorning sbalneav14:58
LaserJockI managed to upload edubuntu-docs last night14:58
LaserJockhopefully that is the last upload we need for Karmic14:58
LaserJockbut it looks like we're missing some essential pieces on the DVD15:02
LaserJockno LTSP and no edubuntu-desktop tasks in tasksel :(15:02
alkisgno LTSP is indeed a big loss15:05
jbichagood morning15:06
jbichafinally got the new DVD downloaded, I had trouble with zsync earlier and had to use rsync15:07
sbalneavLaserJock: That just a bug we can patch, or a larger issue?15:07
LaserJockit's just a seed issue15:09
LaserJockI need to figure out what the magic incantation is to get it back on :-)15:09
LaserJockfor a task to show up all the packages needed for the task must be included15:10
LaserJockso I must have cut out something they needed15:10
LaserJockit shouldn't require an upload15:10
LaserJockjust a seed change and rebuild of the .iso15:10
sbalneavI'm just chatting now with some folks in debian-edu about ldap stuff, and how they handle pre-conf of ldap.15:11
LaserJockah, excellent15:12
sbalneavHere's what I'd like to accomplish: maybe someone (LaserJock) can tell me if this is possible.15:15
sbalneavpackage called edubuntu-ldap-conf15:15
sbalneavpre-depends on slapd15:15
sbalneavsomehow manages to pre-seed some of the debconf questions that the slapd package asks15:16
sbalneavis that possible?15:16
alkisgWouldn't that be "post-depends"?15:16
alkisg(I don't know if such a thing exists...)15:16
LaserJockit'd have to be pre-depends15:16
LaserJockbut even then I don't know if you can pre-seed debconf like that15:16
sbalneavslapd asks lots of nasty questions15:17
LaserJockwell, we can preseed on install15:17
sbalneav"What do you want to use for your back end database? HDB or DBD?"15:17
LaserJockthat's why I like having a DVD15:18
alkisgHow about this one: pre-depends "sbalneav's-slapd-helper", and depends "slapd" => this way wouldn't the helper run before the slapd, and get a chance to seed it?15:18
LaserJockwe lost a lot of flexibility15:18
sbalneavCan task-sel's preseed?15:18
LaserJocknot sure, I don't think so though15:19
LaserJockbut I know you can preseed in the text-based installer15:19
LaserJockstgraber: ping15:23
LaserJockdarn it, I think I'm going to have to make the DVD huge again15:28
sbalneavWell, define huge? :) less than 4.7 gigs I hope :)15:31
LaserJockbut maybe adding another GB15:31
LaserJockright now you can't install edubuntu-desktop off of the text-based installer15:32
LaserJockalso, I've narrowed down the included languages to like the top 5 or so15:32
sbalneavWe don't have enough room for all of 'em?15:33
LaserJockwe could just not have edubuntu-desktop installable via d-i15:33
LaserJockwell, technically yeah15:33
LaserJockbut I'm afraid if we load up the DVD the first round 1) it doesn't leave a lot of room for future expansion and 2) might scare off a lot of people with a huge download just to try it out15:34
LaserJockI just add on greek and finnish15:36
alkisgLaserJock: how much MB do the additional languages "cost"?15:37
LaserJockI don't know15:37
LaserJockI'm trying to figure that out15:37
ograLaserJock, pitti has a table with that15:37
ogralanguage by size15:37
LaserJockogra: is it on people.canonical.com you think?15:38
ograyes, but i dont know the exact url15:39
jbichaLaserJock: it looks like ltsp-server-standalone is part of edubuntu-server because it's being installed right now on my text-based install15:39
LaserJockjbicha: hmm, it should be15:39
jbichabut I thought you said earlier it wasn't15:40
LaserJock*shouldn't be15:42
* LaserJock is doing a million things and his typing is suffering15:42
LaserJockso it looks like the languages run something like 10-20MB/language15:43
LaserJockthere are a total of 135 language15:44
LaserJockso yeah, including all of them will be ~ 1GB15:44
jbichawell we don't need 135 languages by default15:45
LaserJockjbicha: right, but the question is what ones do we need15:48
LaserJockI have a list of like the top 10 most spoken languages15:49
alkisgWell if you could get your hands on the previous edubuntu download stats...15:54
LaserJockok, well, that's the lang pack issue15:59
LaserJockedubuntu-desktop doesn't show up because the edubuntu-desktop.deb isn't on the DVD16:00
LaserJockthe question is if we want to have it possible for people to install Edubuntu standalone in the text-based installer16:00
alkisgIs a text-based installer necessary?16:02
stgraberLaserJock: pong16:04
LaserJockstgraber: do you know if there is supposed to be a LTSP task?16:04
LaserJockin tasksel?16:04
LaserJockalkisg: it is for anything other than Edubuntu standalone16:05
jbichaalkisg: if the graphics card is not out-of-the-box supported by Ubuntu, then yes; for instance I need to use the alternate Ubuntu Karmic CD for most of my home computers16:05
LaserJockalkisg: but it could also be useful for people doing RAID/LVM or low memory, or yeah, graphics card problems16:05
alkisgjbicha: doesn't the "safe graphics mode" work for you?16:05
LaserJockit could be useful but I'm wondering if it's worth an extra ~500MB16:05
jbichano, it did in Jaunty but xforcevesa seems broken for me on Karmic16:06
jbichaI've tried complaining about it but haven't got any feedback16:07
alkisgLaserJock, "it is for anything other than Edubuntu standalone" ==> what do you mean by that?16:08
LaserJockalkisg: I mean that an Edubuntu "workstation" (i.e. no server bits, just edu apps) can be installed via the live part of the DVD16:08
LaserJocknothing else, like LTSP, Edubuntu Server, etc. can be installed that way, only via the text-based installer16:09
alkisgLTSP is too big to be contained in the dvd - except if someone packages the chroot16:09
ograalkisg, the live installer only copies the squashfs to the target device16:10
alkisgogra, sure, but couldn't the CD also contain some packages outside of the squashfs image?16:10
ograif you would want different flavours you would need a full squashfs setup for each of them16:10
LaserJockalkisg: LTSP fits fine on the DVD16:11
ograalkisg, for ltsp you could work out a way to hook the udeb scripts into the live installer and make it build the chroot/image at the end of the install from CD16:11
LaserJockbut not as a live installation currently16:11
alkisgogra, it would still need to download 200 Mb from the internet16:11
ograit simply requires someone to write the code :)16:11
ograno, it wouldnt16:11
ograsince you have all packages on DVD already16:12
alkisgWhat I'm saying is that do we need those packages?16:12
ograit will indeed only work in that setup16:12
LaserJockogra: we wouldn't have then on the squashfs though would we?16:12
ograLaserJock, nope, but ubiquity can use hook scripts16:13
alkisgDo we really need a text installer? Even if it costs 500 mb?16:13
ograyou can install additional stuff to the squashfs, but you need to explicitly code that16:13
LaserJockwell, wait16:13
ograalkisg, ??16:13
ograalkisg, i think you understand the design wrong :)16:13
alkisgOK /me will stop talking, finish downloading the dvd, and talk again later :)16:14
ograwhat costs you extra 500MB is the live installer :)16:14
LaserJockwhat's costing 500MB would be if we want to have edubuntu-desktop to be installable *both* from the Live part and the text-based part16:14
LaserJocki.e. you can install it from either installer16:14
ograyou need to16:14
ograelse ltsp wont work16:14
LaserJockltsp just works on ubuntu-desktop16:14
ograwell, yes, but then you dont have an edubuntu ltsp server16:15
LaserJockI'm saying if we don't put edubuntu-desktop on that we don't have to have the KDE stuff, gcompris, etc.16:15
LaserJockso I'm wondering how necessarily is it that it be an "Edubuntu" LTSP server16:16
jbichamoodle doesn't work right if I select mysql-server16:16
LaserJockdarn it16:16
LaserJockstupid moodle16:16
ograso you have no text based workstation install anymore (like it used to be) ?16:16
LaserJockI hate that thing16:16
LaserJockogra: right now no16:16
ograyeah, moodle is a pain16:16
LaserJockogra: I sort of accidentally dropped edubuntu-desktop from the seed16:17
jbichaI presume it works if I select the default postgresql16:17
LaserJockso I'm wondering if I should put it back in16:17
ograif you have the space16:17
LaserJockjbicha: I doubt it16:17
LaserJockogra: well, I have 4.2GB :-)16:17
ograi think it works better with pgsql16:17
LaserJockogra: I just don't like making everybody download that much16:17
ograi know moquist put some effort into getting the default work16:18
LaserJockwe're going from a 300 MB download (well, really 700+300MB)16:18
ograso pgsql might work where mysql doesnt16:18
jbichamoodle allows me to pick mysql or postgre but doesn't check to see if mysql was installed first16:18
LaserJockyeah, but something with pgsql got messed up16:18
LaserJockat least people have reported that it no longer works16:18
ograwell, my info is two years old :)16:18
LaserJockI think the moodle part might be ok16:18
LaserJockbut something with pgsql has changed16:19
ogranot completely16:19
ograit should have a pre-depends16:19
ograbut then you have to select a DB server and hardcode it16:19
LaserJock"ok" as in, it was working if you selected pgsql16:19
ograwhich probably breaks existing setups with mysql16:19
ogradamned choice in linux :P16:20
LaserJockI really should make edubuntu-server dep on LTSP and edubuntu-desktop16:20
LaserJockand drop moodle until we figure out how to make it work right16:20
ograbetter than to ship something broken16:20
LaserJockespecially since it comes up in the task list16:21
ograand kick alkisg's butt for lucid so he ports ltsp-client-builder.udeb to ubiquity ;)16:21
jbichait's too bad schooltool doesn't work Karmic's new zope yet either16:21
alkisgTrying to understand, take #2: the dvd contains a live image *and* some .deb files. The live image contains approximately what's gonna be installed in a workstation. The *.deb files could contain only the added features for a server installation, i.e. apache, moodle etc. On the other hand, LTSP needs a full set of packages in order to be installed. Why would we put those as *.deb files?16:21
alkisgogra: right! :)16:21
ograalkisg, because the build system does only support that atm16:22
ograas well as the installers16:22
jbichaand it's not possible for the text-installer to apply the live image if we want to install "edubuntu-desktop"?16:22
ograthey work completely differently16:22
alkisgSo we keep all those packages for the case that someone wants to use the text installer? Couldn't we just tell that guy to use plain ubuntu and install edubuntu-desktop later on? :D16:23
ograthe text installer gives you biggest flexibility ... you surely have 100s of different install variants with it ... the live installer only supports a single way of installation16:24
alkisgSure, but that's what edubuntu is about: LESS options :D16:24
ograalkisg, no, you keep all these packages for any other install than live16:24
alkisg(=to make it easier for teachers)16:24
ograthe live install (from a tech POV) is the actual wart here ... not the text install16:25
alkisgogra: ok, try to see it from the teacher POV, who isn't really interested about the text installer...16:26
alkisgI.e. if he sees xforcevesa problems, he'll call the tech16:26
alkisgThe tech may as well use the standard ubuntu cd/dvd, and install edubuntu-desktop later on16:26
ogra alkisg so teachers are not intrested in anything but edubuntu dekstops ?16:26
ograi doubt that16:26
alkisgSo why keep the text installer in the edubuntu dvd? (from the teacher POV)16:26
ograogra@osiris:~$ grep -c ^Task /usr/share/tasksel/ubuntu-tasks.desc16:27
ograthe text installer offers 46 preselected install variants plus any you can imagine if you intevene manually16:27
ograthe live installer offers exactly one16:27
alkisgSure. As an sysadmin, I totally agree with you16:28
alkisgAs a teacher, I don't understand what are you saying16:28
sbalneavPersonally, I'd prefer to see us ditch the graphical installer, and go purely with an alternative install disk.16:28
ograalkisg, *you* were the one pushing for LTSP installs from the edubuntu media16:28
alkisgogra: sure, from within ubuquity16:28
alkisgNot from a text installer...16:28
sbalneavthat way, people can use the dvd for ltsp installs.16:28
ograif you think it's to compilcated for teahers, you should consider dropping it16:28
ograalkisg, so where is the port of ltsp-client-builder to ubiquity ? :P16:29
alkisgRight! Now we're talking... :D16:29
ograwhy didnt you port it yet16:29
ograslacker  !!!16:29
alkisgBecause I'm stilll struggling with the ldap stuff, and waiting for sbalneav to give me his divine click-and-have-ldap-ready packages..16:30
ograi think it's a good target to support it in lucid ..., i'm happy to give a hand with it16:30
ografor karmic i think its simply over now16:30
ograwe're in final freeze16:30
alkisgogra, well, whenever you got some time, I'd like your advice on how to do that16:30
ogranothing but bugs marked critical will be touched anymore16:30
ograalkisg, look at flash-kernel, it uses an udeb thats been originally written for the text installer ...16:31
alkisgE.g. me, highvoltage and LaserJock exchanged some thoughts about it, but don't have enough experience to select one method over the other...16:31
ograthis udeb (or it's postinst) is used by ubiquity16:31
ograyou can use ltsp-client-builder the same way16:32
alkisgOK, I'll have a look into that and try to see if we can have something for lucid16:32
sbalneavalkisg: what, are you expecting me to do this NOW? I was expecting to hopefully have something for 10.0416:32
alkisgsbalneav: nah, just joking man :)16:33
alkisgTake your time16:33
* alkisg wants to look at the virtual-users thing first16:33
alkisgI think it'll be even better than ldap/nfs16:33
sbalneavRemind me.  What virtual users thing?16:34
alkisgHmmm I don't gonna spoil the conversation with my silly thoughts... ok, here it goes:16:34
alkisgUsually more than one students sit on every PC. This makes it difficult to manage user accounts16:35
alkisgE.g. I name an account 'name1name2' from the names of the 2 students sitting on 1 pc16:36
alkisgThen, in the middle of the year, those 2 students take a fight, and don't want to sit together anymore16:36
alkisgI have to change the username, the path etc16:36
alkisgThen they always forget their passwords16:36
alkisgSo "normal" user accounts don't mean much to teachers with multiple students per pc16:37
alkisgI thought this: what if only 1 user account existed per pc? named "user"?16:38
alkisg...and all the home folders were "under" the teacher's "Documents"?16:38
alkisg...and were mounted with sshfs on the clients?16:38
alkisgThis way I could even move exercises around not concerning myself with ACLs etc,16:39
alkisgAll the users would have /home/user as their home path making settings migration easier,16:39
sbalneav200 megs of child porn show up under the home dir "user" on one of the machines.  Which of the 6 kids who log in on that machine did it?16:39
alkisg(that also helps with wine...)16:40
sbalneavOne person, one account.16:40
alkisgAll the student PCs have gdm set to autologon16:40
sbalneavBad idea.16:40
sbalneavhave them log in.16:40
alkisgThe teacher preselects which class he wants to have16:40
alkisgSo pc1/home/user maps to 'name1' with sshfs16:41
alkisgpc2/home/user maps to 'name2'16:41
alkisgWhen the class finishes, the teacher selects another set of users to autologon16:41
alkisgso pc1/home/user now maps to 'name15'16:41
sbalneavThat's a HUGE change to how unix normally works.16:41
sbalneavyou will run into MULTIPLE problems with many programs not liking that behaviour.16:42
alkisgWhy? All that program will see is ONE user, with his path at /home/usr16:42
sbalneavIf you'd like to implement yourself that personally on your site, be my guest.16:42
alkisgIf they can work with sshfs, they won't see any other users...16:42
alkisgRemember some people that come up to #ltsp and were asking to logon all the clients with the same user account?16:43
sbalneavBut it's not going to be anything that I'm going to spend one iota of time on for edubuntu.16:43
sbalneavAnd we tell them: use multiple accounts.  The way you should.16:43
alkisgI'm not saying that this should be something for #edubuntu16:43
alkisgBut I think it'll make things a lot easier for schools here in Greece, and maybe for those other people that asked the same thing in #ltsp16:44
alkisgSure, until it's tried and working for several years, I'm not going to suggest to put such a thing upstream...16:44
sbalneavI say this with all respect and niceness, but it's a stupid idea.  drop it.  If you have ANY sort of trouble, there's NO way you're going to be able to PROVE who did what when.16:45
sbalneavTrust me: I work in the legal field.16:45
alkisgWhy are you saying that? Each user still has his own home dir16:45
alkisgIt's just symlinked to /home/user before the user logs in16:46
sbalneavbut they *haven't authenticated themselves*16:46
sbalneavLike I say, porn shows up.  Kid says "I didn't do it.  Prove I did"16:46
sbalneavyou cant.16:46
alkisgSure i can16:46
alkisgIt's in his home folder16:47
alkisgin .mozilla16:47
sbalneavYeah?  Who selected the home folder for him?16:47
alkisgYou mean the act of entering a password?16:47
=== squidly__ is now known as squidly
sbalneavYou said the teacher selects the class, right?16:47
alkisgYes, and has written down the names of the users and where they sit16:48
alkisgSo he knows that students 1, 2 and 3 sit on PC116:48
sbalneavAnd teachers *NEVER EVER EVER* make mistakes, and select the WRONG class, right?16:48
sbalneavWon't stand up in a court of law.16:48
sbalneavWon't even stand up to an angry parent.16:49
alkisgBut 2 or 3 students are sitting on the same PC, you can't prove which of them started the porn thing16:49
alkisgYou've already lost your case, even with normal user accounts16:49
sbalneavSure you can.16:49
sbalneavIf they log in AS THEMSELVES16:50
sbalneavThat's why you HAVE to have 1 login per student, and force them to log in.16:50
alkisgThey can't; the 2 or 3 of them need to have a shared account16:50
alkisgBecause we only have 10 PCs for 20 students16:50
alkisg(or for 30 students)16:50
alkisgYou can't tell them "you sit and logon, and the others just watch"16:51
sbalneavSo, what, one types, one moves the mouse, and one watches the screen?16:51
alkisgYes, and after 10 minutes they switch16:51
alkisgThey even get a common degree (more or less)16:51
sbalneavWhy can't one use it for 10 minutes, switch to another user, they use it for 10 minutes, etc?16:52
alkisgBecause you'd loose all the time with user switching16:52
alkisgGuys we start an exercise with gimp16:52
alkisgFirst student draws 1/3 of the image. Saves, logs off16:53
alkisgSecond student logs on. Copies the exercise from the first student. Draws another 3rd, saves, logs off16:53
alkisgThird students logs on... etc16:53
sbalneavOh, please, logging out and in takes less than 30 seconds!16:53
sbalneavand you put the image in a shared area.16:53
sbalneavthey don't HAVE to copy it around.16:53
alkisgTell a 10 y.o. student to copy a file from another home folder :)16:53
sbalneavI've had shared folders for YEARS.16:54
alkisgFor kids < 10 y.o., the teacher put their password himself16:54
alkisgDo that for 30 students...16:54
* sbalneav shrugs16:55
sbalneavLike I say, you've got absolutely NO way to say who's done what.16:55
alkisgSure I have... one of those 3 guys :) That's the best I can do.16:56
alkisgsbalneav: I've tried to have seperate accounts per students. It just isn't feasible in my situation...16:56
sbalneavalkisg: "one of those 3 guys" don't stand up in court.16:57
sbalneavand trust me16:57
sbalneavsooner or later, you're going to HAVE to narrow it down to "one of those 3 guys"16:58
sbalneavand since you CANT16:58
sbalneavit means you've got nothing :)16:58
sbalneavJust sayin' is all :)16:58
alkisgsbalneav: I've been burned by the law before for silly beurocracy things, I totally share your concern. It's just isn't possible.16:58
LaserJockcan I interject some reality?16:59
sbalneavOK, well, that's fine, so long as you go into it with eyes open16:59
LaserJockwe still haven't decided what to do for karmic16:59
alkisgsbalneav: currently, about 90% of greek teachers have one user per pc. Just one user per pc, not one user per class per pc. :)17:00
* sbalneav scrolls back17:00
* alkisg stops talking :)17:00
sbalneavLaserJock: Which, the ltsp tasksel we talking here?17:00
LaserJock1) do we ship edubuntu-desktop in the text-based installer?17:02
sbalneavI'd say yes, if possible.17:02
sbalneavAs I preferr the text based installer.17:02
LaserJock2) should we ship edubuntu-server (currently a broken moodle installer)?17:04
stgraberLaserJock: sorry for the delay17:07
stgraberLaserJock: it's not a task, it's a d-i component that you use by passing a custom .seed file17:07
stgrabergoing for some food, later all17:07
LaserJockthis is confusing17:08
jbichathere's something ironic about children downloading child porn though17:08
sbalneavLaserJock: Hmm, if moodle's broken...17:08
LaserJockI swear there was a tasksel item for it17:08
sbalneavcan we just dump moodle from edubuntu-server until we get it fixed?17:08
alkisgjbicha: lol! :D17:08
LaserJocksbalneav: well, all edubuntu-server is right now is a moodle installer17:08
jbicha& an LTSP server installer, right?17:09
LaserJockedubuntu-server shouldn't do anything with LTSP17:09
jbichathen how'd it get on my computer?17:09
LaserJockI don't know17:10
jbichatext install: I only selected edubuntu-server openssh-server and Ubuntu Desktop17:10
ograjbicha, ise f417:13
LaserJockman I hate this seed stuff17:13
LaserJockf4 doesn't have any LTSP option for us17:13
ograyou select an edubuntu-server and use F4 to switch on the LTSP installation17:13
ograwhy is that ?17:13
LaserJockI have no idea17:13
LaserJockmy guess is that maybe it's using an outdated file somewhere in the build script17:14
ograwell, seems it wasnt properly switched to the DVD17:14
ograit needs some preseed values and an entry in gfxboot17:14
LaserJockso what *should* happen17:14
ograit should show you "Install an LTSP Server" in the F4 menu17:15
LaserJockis you hit F4 select LTSP, then go to the text-based installer17:15
ograand that applies to *all* text based installs17:15
LaserJockand in there get the tasksel thing to fine-tune the non-LTSP components?17:15
ograwell, you get dropped into tasksel anyway in the text installer17:18
ograthe F4 option just triggers that the ltep env gets build at some point during install17:19
LaserJockso maybe it's just automatic on our DVD?17:23
LaserJockwe already have it preseeded17:23
alkisgogra, so if we press "Esc" on the installer to see the installer menu, we'd see the ltsp option on the edubuntu dvd?>:o=-Ohhsut47htrtfg17:23
alkisg(sorry my kid got the keyboard and I was away :))17:25
* ogra tries severeal decipher mechanisms ...17:25
ograah, kid-cypher works :)17:25
ograi dont know abour esc17:25
ogradoesnt the gfxboot screen come up by default ?17:25
alkisgNo no I mean after that, in the d-i17:26
ograoh, esc wont do anything there17:26
ograi think you need "go back"17:26
alkisgSo ltsp will be there in the list of tasks?17:26
ograand yes, there you should have an LTSP option to manually select17:26
ograwhich is very uncomfortable :)17:27
ograand the reason why i added the F4 option that autoselects the LTSP udeb17:27
LaserJockso perhaps it's the preseeds we're using17:30
LaserJockubuntu has an ltsp.preseed17:31
LaserJockubuntu has a cli, ltsp, and ubuntu preseed file17:32
LaserJockedubuntu has cli, cloud, edubuntu, ubuntu server, ubuntu-server-minimal, ubuntu-server-minimalvm, and workstation17:33
ograyeah, you need the ltsp one too17:34
LaserJockso should I modify the edubuntu seed to take out the ltsp bits?17:36
LaserJockedubuntu preseed rather17:36
ograno, you should just add the ltsp one17:37
LaserJockbut wouldn't that still mean that no matter what you choose you'll get LTSP?17:39
jbichaso I tried moodle with postgre and I get the lovely PGSQL.5342 error which completely stops the installation17:49
jbichawhich is prob worse than the failed mysql attempt which doesn't tell you it is broken17:50
LaserJockyeah, something's messed up17:53
LaserJockogra: so you think just dropping the ltsp.preseed in there should work?17:54
ograi think so, but it's years ago i touched that area of d-i so better confirm with someone from the installer team17:55
Ahmuckit's a good read18:07
AhmuckLike my CEO example, these people may generate “soft” work products (word processing documents, spreadsheets, presentations, PDFs) that are going to be printed hardcopy, are usually not of a complex nature and/or do not need to be exchanged or originate from Windows/MS Office environments. The majority of home users fit into this category, as do high school and college students.18:07
jbichaI don't think mysql is even available on the edubuntu dvd18:11
LaserJockjbicha: that's entirely possible18:12
LaserJockjbicha: edubuntu-server is meant to use pgsql18:12
jbichaI've never used pgsql; are you supposed to setup a root password first like you do for mysql?18:12
Ahmuckedubuntu-server ?18:13
Ahmucki've been here a while, but never heard of edubuntu-server18:13
LaserJockjbicha: I can't remember, I think it asks fewer questions though18:14
LaserJockAhmuck: yeah, well ... you ain't missing much right now ;-)18:15
Ahmuckwhat is it?18:15
Ahmuckthere are advantages/disadvantages either way.18:15
LaserJockthe idea was to pull together useful server software for educational institutions18:16
Ahmuckany way of making it database neutral?18:16
ograthats the prob18:16
LaserJockmoodle, mediawiki maybe, schooltool perhaps18:16
ograit *is* database neutral18:16
Ahmuckso pgsql is not used for writing?18:16
ograwhich causes tons of failures18:16
Ahmuckas in hard writing, but simply as a storage mechanism?18:16
LaserJockthe only thing we actually got into Main was moodle18:16
Ahmuckmy understanding is that for reading, mysql is very good, and very easy to use/configure18:17
LaserJockyou mean for reading the database?18:18
LaserJockwell moodle will be doing both18:19
LaserJockmysql is pretty large18:19
LaserJocksome people consider it sort of "bloat" for the purposes of an educational server18:19
ograless bloat than oracle though :P18:19
Ahmucki think you need to consider your user base18:20
ograAhmuck, hmm ?18:21
Ahmucki've found pgsql more complex for new users18:21
ograwhat has the user base to do with technical  packaging probs ?18:21
Ahmuckand unless your doing a large percentage of writes, i've found mysql to be very usable18:21
ograa user will never touch any database directly18:21
Ahmucknever have to configure, setup, etc.?18:21
LaserJockhopefully not18:21
Ahmuckur user is not the final end user, but the instructor that is setting the @#$%# up18:22
ograthe point is that moodle as it is in debian (and as we get it from them) runs on single standalone servers as wellas on 100 server clusters18:22
ograso it is highly configurable and has a ton of options18:22
ograwhat we attempted to do years ago when i created edubuntu-server was to have an out of the box setup that you can manage directly after install through the moodle admin interface18:23
ograno user or admin should ever touch a database18:23
ograthe prob is the high configurability of the debian package here18:23
ograand to find a proper setup for edubuntu without breaking that high configurability18:24
ograso far all attempts failed18:24
Ahmuckk, makes sense.18:24
Ahmucki'm back to lurking now18:25
ograan enduser/admin should just select edubuntu-server at install time and get a properly working setup18:25
ograthat's been the ubuntu philosophy since the beginning ... its just not easy to achieve if you want to retain the debian flexibility18:25
jbichais "No Interface for LTSP dhcpd configuration found" a normal error because I get it every time on the text-based installer18:41
alkisgThat's because you don't have 2 ethernet cards... /me wishes the ltsp installer would install dnsmasq in that case ;)19:07
jbichadoes dnsmasq work so it doesn't require 2 ethernet cards? I've never used ltsp19:09
alkisgWell there are 2 main cases with 1 card: either the ltsp server is also the dhcp server, or it isn't. dnsmasq can work in both of those cases, but mainly helps in the second case.19:10
jbichaah, I think I finally figured out how to get moodle working20:12
jbichaI chose to "deny all except localhost" during installation, well it looks like apache2 was registering me as ::1 instead of
jbichaI created a page with the issues I've found, I don't know if you want bug reports for any of them https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/KarmicKnownIssues20:21
jbichahighvoltage: you were in Bahrain once, right?20:21
highvoltagejbicha: yep20:23
jbichahighvoltage: I believe you're famous in our Linux group20:24
highvoltagejbicha: heh! I *almost* went to a meeting of yours once, but otherwise I can't imaging why :)20:25
jbichayeah, we were expecting you20:26
highvoltagewell, tonight a random guy sitting next to me on a plane recognised me from planet ubuntu, so that was a bit weird.20:26
jbichanext time you're in Bahrain, be sure to stop by20:26
highvoltagejbicha: will do. I have some good friends there, perhaps next year20:26
sbalneavHmmm, looks like debian-edu's using cipux for handling admin tasks.20:27
jbichalooks like Bahrain gets to open next Formula 1 season, look forward to meeting you if it works out20:27
jbichawhat does the "unattended operation" checkbox do when setting up Moodle?20:36
LaserJocksbalneav: does CipUX look useful?20:40
jbichaat least part of cipux is in the Karmic repos20:54
chang-lihi , can ltsp-server & edubuntu work with the xfce install?21:34
LaserJockyou might end up having to install a lot of packages, but it should work fine21:35
chang-liI am install via pxe & tftpboot  xubuntu.21:35
chang-liThen I guess, will install ltsp-server.21:36
dgroosGood afternoon.21:37
dgrooschang-li: howdy21:39
dgroosmy ltsp clients can't boot :(21:40
chang-lii'm not there yet. just doing a net install via tftboot of xubuntu.21:42
dgroosnot sure how to address this.  They seem to load an image, but then give an error just as the loading splash screen starts to show.21:44
sbalneavLaserJock: Looks... interesting anyway.21:51
sbalneavI'll have to start playing with it.21:51
chang-lidgroos: could be default video setting21:51
sbalneavThe debian-edu people are stoked that someone from edubuntu's in there talking to them.21:51
dgrooschang-li: thanks.21:52
LaserJocksbalneav: well, we've always been here :-)21:52
dgroosis that something that would just change?21:52
dgroosI'm thinking it might be a network setting.  After it doesn't boot successfully, it says a few things about address and gateway etc.. then:21:54
dgroosError: Connect: Connection refused21:55
dgroosI don't get why it says (just a little before the previous message I just posted): rootserver:
GJLook in your /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf file21:58
dgroosGJ: thanks, I'll check it out!  what am I looking for?21:58
GJThe option routers xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx should point at the server.22:00
GJI got in on this conversation late, so I'm assuming your LTSP server is not at the ip address you gave above.22:00
dgrooshmmm... it points to, not the building nic,  is that right?22:01
GJIs the address of the server on which the ltsp chroot is located?22:02
dgrooswell, has always been the ip I would get on the nic pointing toward the switch which goes to my thin client lan, if that's what you mean?22:04
dgroosI'd see this when I did an ifconfig, for example.22:04
GJWell, that's configured correctly then.22:05
GJI had that same message and finally got past that yesterday. Let me try to remember what I did.22:05
GJI tried so many different things to resolve the issue that I cant remember what finally fixed it.22:06
dgroos:)  I've been there many times...22:07
dgroosOn the TC screen where the failure is occurring, it says:22:08
dgroosdns0 : (seems fine) dns1 :   domain : example.com  rootserver:   rootpath: /opt/ltsp/i386  filename :  /ltsp/i386/nbi.img   Error:  Connect:  Connection refused (this all, from the seems strange)22:11
GJI know I removed the /opt directory and the /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp directory and then ran "sudo ltsp-build-client --arch i386.22:13
LaserJockI think I fixed the DVD22:18
LaserJockit turns out the DVD was 1) using the old preseed file from the "good ole days" of the 2 CD installer and 2) we weren't in the list of projects to include the LTSP option22:19
LaserJockI also added several more of the top used languages and greek and finnish for our friends ;-)22:22
GJdgroos, is your server 32 or 64 bit?22:22
dgroos32 AFAIK22:23
GJSo your chroot environment is i386 then, right? and /opt/ltsp/i386 exists?22:24
GJrather than /opt/ltsp/amd64?22:25
dgrooshmmm... I just tried to reboot again (done this a few times) on the client and it got further this time, almost seemed to make it all the way but went back to the same screen :(22:25
dgroosyes it does...22:25
GJwhat OS are you using?22:26
dgroosAnother part of the error message that shows up is, "target filesystem doesn't have /sbin/init.  No init found.  Try passing init-bootarg.  Does this mean anything?22:26
dgroosI'm using Jaunty...22:26
GJNo doubt because the volumes aren't mounting properly.22:26
dgroosI see, that's what it means, yes, it says that...22:27
GJYou are experiencing exactly the same situation I struggled with for 3 days.22:28
dgroosseems like the strange thing is the rootserver:
dgroosHad you been doing anything with iTALC?22:28
dgroosHad your system been working fine for a good while?22:29
GJI just installed Jaunty on a server with a new hard drive Sunday and finally resolved the last of the LTSP issues this morning.22:29
GJNo iTALC22:29
dgroosCongratulations :D  It sure is great when it works!22:29
dgroosI've been running successfully for almost a month in my class.22:30
GJAre there any other DHCP servers on your network? I just can't figure out why your rootserver address is wrong22:30
dgroosAnd then this just popped up as I'm now expanding: adding another teacher and his classes.  And, his hardware.22:31
dgroosWhen you say network, do you mean the thin client side or the building side?22:31
GJCan you ping this address?22:31
dgroosit says, ping: icmp open socket: Operation not permitted22:32
dgroosnot sure what that means.22:32
GJDid you ping from the server?22:32
dgroosI'm ssh'ed into the server and ran it from there... but I can use NXclient and get onto the server and run from that desktop... I'll try that!22:33
GJI always kick myself for not recording every step I take to resolve issues, but I'm always in such a hurry that I dont want to "waste time" writing things down.22:34
dgroosso what does: ping: icmp open socket: Operation not permitted, mean?22:36
GJYour guess is as good as mine!22:37
Ahmuckit means icmp is closed22:37
dgroosHi Ahmuck22:39
GJDid you try removing /opt and /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp and rebuilding your chroot?22:39
GJOr is that working for existing clients and only the ones you just added are having problems?22:40
dgroosWell, true.  for the client that had been signed on, things were working just fine.  The problem occured for a client trying to log on.22:41
dgroosI haven't done this yet, I've got a lot of customization in the chroot...22:42
GJSo let me get this straight. Existing client machines can connect and students can log on, but the recently added client machines have the Connection Refused error?22:44
dgroosNo.  what I meant is that, I was logged in to a thin client and was using it all afternoon, but found out that if one tried to sit at another TC and reboot, it wouldn't work.22:45
GJSo you have no idea where a machine with an ip address of is located?22:47
dgroos... it couldn't boot, but if it had already loaded in image it could continue to work.22:47
GJAnd clearly that rootserver ip address is the culprit. Find the rogue DHCP server on your network!22:49
dgroosRight.  Now would that be inside the internal LAN, my thin client LAN or would it be outside of it on the building?22:50
dgroos*building side of the LAN?22:51
dgroosThink I might have found it!22:52
GJDid you "sudo ltsp-update-sshkeys" to make sure the server and clients machines are on the same page, so to speak?22:54
jbichadoes anyone know what the "unattended operation" checkbox does when setting up Moodle?22:55
dgroos:D  You were right!  "Find the rogue DHCP server on your network" The teacher next door had plugged in an old windows computer to our ltsp LAN and it was doing just that--conflicting.22:56
dgroosWe unplugged that computer and things worked again :)22:56
dgroosThanks for your help in tracking this down!!!22:57
GJYou're welcome!22:57
GJNow here's a question that should be easy for someone to answer for me...23:00
dgroosNow I can return to my many hours of trying to debug my plone installation...  you never know when you will hit upon a solution... just gotta keep trudging on...23:00
GJI just used the Edubuntu 9.04 addon cd to install some classroom software. When I tried to add the software it went to Internet for the software rather than the cd. Now that's a problem when you're operating over a satellite connection with a limit on the amount of downstream total in a 24 hour period. Why didn't add/remove just use the cd?23:03
dgroosI'll try--not sure why it did it, but I think you could go to sources and make sure that CD is checked, and maybe that the other ones are unchecked.  Should limit choices of updating to the CD.23:05
GJI'll check that. But you would think that would be the default behavior when you pop a cd into the server and select "start addon installer"23:06
dgroosI'd think so.  Where are you working out of?23:07
GJespecially when they call the cd the Edubuntu addon cd!23:07
dgroosThere's some interesting history there, though not sure of the details.23:08
dgroosWhere are you that you have a satellite connection?23:09
GJApache Indian reservation in Arizona23:09
GJDSL is too slow here and no cable at all23:09
dgroosI find it quite interesting to see where people are working/where they are at.23:10
GJsatellite and t1 are the only choices23:10
GJt1 is way too expensive.23:11
GJThis satellite connection is costing us more than $200 a month as it is.23:11
GJBut we have to have the bandwidth23:11
dgroosI see the need for the CD approach.  I just checked: System/Administration/Software Sources23:13
dgroosand under the first pane it shows the first 4 boxes checked (downloadable from the internet) and then the 2 boxes in the section, "Installable from CD-ROM/DVD" are unchecked.  Reversing that checking might work.23:15
GJAnd under the Third-Party Software tab only the Edubuntu cd is checked but it doesn't mention "addon" there at all23:17
dgroosI think Edubuntu CD and addon are one and the same for Jaunty.23:19
GJApparently. Right now I'm trying to sort through the stuff on the CD to see what might be usable here at our K-8 school.23:25
GJI'll just have to make sure any more installs do NOT access the internet.23:25
dgroosI think you'll get some good opinions if you ask that question on the edubuntu-users list server though it has been asked in various ways a few times so you may want to access the archives.  Best of luck!23:26
dgroosheading home, have a good evening GJ23:27

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