[03:40] <sbalneav> Evening all
[04:01] <LaserJock> sbalneav: around still?
[04:02] <sbalneav> I surely am
[04:03] <sbalneav> Want me on pidgin?
[04:03] <LaserJock> sbalneav: no, that's fine
[04:04] <LaserJock> sbalneav: I need a script
[04:04] <sbalneav> Whatcha need?
[04:04] <LaserJock> sbalneav: just something that will s/foo/bar/ in all the files in a directory (that has several directories)
[04:04] <sbalneav> Recursive find and replace?
[04:05] <LaserJock> yep
[04:05] <sbalneav> That should be a one-liner.
[04:05] <LaserJock> sbalneav: also look what I did this evening: http://paste.ubuntu.com/293624/
[04:05] <LaserJock> sbalneav: I know, but .... I'm a chemist
[04:05] <sbalneav> Holy crap
[04:06] <sbalneav> lemme just test, but it should be:
[04:06] <sbalneav> find . -exec sed -i -e 's/foo/bar/g' {} \;
[04:06] <sbalneav> but lemme test that.
[04:08] <sbalneav> find . -type f -exec sed -i -e 's/bar/hhhhh/g' {} \;
[04:08] <sbalneav> to explain:
[04:10] <sbalneav> find, in the current directory (.) recursively, all regular files (-type f) and execute on them the command "sed -i (edit file in place) -e (expression) " on the file you found ({}) and \; terminates the find.
[04:10] <sbalneav> howzzat?
[04:10] <LaserJock> ahh
[04:10] <LaserJock> I was close
[04:11] <LaserJock> I missed the -i and -e on sed
[04:11] <sbalneav> Just in case you MIGHT want to take a backup of all the files in the hierarchy.
[04:11] <LaserJock> I pretty much had the find part ok
[04:11] <sbalneav> 'cuz you can never have enough backups.
[04:13] <sbalneav> So, that's all the wiki pages you've touched tonight?
[04:15] <LaserJock> sbalneav: not hardly
[04:15] <LaserJock> sbalneav: that's the list of wiki pages we have
[04:15] <LaserJock> somewhat organized
[04:16] <sbalneav> Ah
[04:16] <sbalneav> Well, thats great.
[04:16] <sbalneav> I could start poking about.
[04:17] <sbalneav> Nah.
[04:17] <sbalneav> My time's better spent packaging.
[04:17] <sbalneav> and bug fixing
[04:17] <sbalneav> and getting the ldap tools written.
[04:18] <LaserJock> I did delete a bunch of pages tonight
[04:19] <LaserJock> woot \o/
[04:19] <LaserJock> the DVD works again
[05:05] <jsgotangco> LaserJock: should i download the latest?
[05:06] <LaserJock> jsgotangco: yes!
[05:06] <jsgotangco> okay
[07:38] <daya> ogra, hi just a quick question, for ltsp shall I install alternate cd (9.04) only for both desktop ver and it
[07:39] <daya> I mean do I need to install desktop ver and then alternate cd or only alternate cd
[07:53] <alkisg_work> daya: only the alternate
[07:53] <alkisg_work> Press F4 when it starts and select "install an ltsp server"
[08:04] <daya> alkisg_work, ok thanks a lot
[08:39] <alkisg_work> stgraber: Hello! I'm on a "free day" on the school lab, so I got much time to experiment. For the italc bug (didn't try gdb yet): on most clients I'm getting "<unknown>: Fatal IO error 14 (Bad address) on X server :0.0" which doesn't help much, but on one particular client I got a more specific "*** glibc detected *** ica: corrupted double-linked list: 0x0a3abe30 ***" bug: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/293711/
[08:45] <alkisg_work> I tried running `gdb ica` on one client, and after 1 minute of demo mode it crashed with the same "Fatal IO" error, but gdb didn't report any additional info except for a [Thread xxx exited].
[09:18] <alkisg_work> !italc-client
[09:18] <alkisg_work> !info italc-client
[09:28]  * alkisg_work downloads the italc .ddeb to try to get a usable backtrace...
[09:45]  * alkisg_work sees that running the previous version of the program with gdb made the problem disappear! Arghhh :(
[14:57] <sbalneav> Morning LaserJock
[14:58] <LaserJock> morning sbalneav
[14:58] <LaserJock> I managed to upload edubuntu-docs last night
[14:58] <LaserJock> hopefully that is the last upload we need for Karmic
[15:01] <sbalneav> ok
[15:02] <LaserJock> but it looks like we're missing some essential pieces on the DVD
[15:02] <LaserJock> no LTSP and no edubuntu-desktop tasks in tasksel :(
[15:05] <alkisg> no LTSP is indeed a big loss
[15:06] <jbicha> good morning
[15:07] <jbicha> finally got the new DVD downloaded, I had trouble with zsync earlier and had to use rsync
[15:07] <sbalneav> LaserJock: That just a bug we can patch, or a larger issue?
[15:09] <LaserJock> it's just a seed issue
[15:09] <LaserJock> I need to figure out what the magic incantation is to get it back on :-)
[15:10] <LaserJock> for a task to show up all the packages needed for the task must be included
[15:10] <LaserJock> so I must have cut out something they needed
[15:10] <LaserJock> it shouldn't require an upload
[15:10] <LaserJock> just a seed change and rebuild of the .iso
[15:11] <sbalneav> I'm just chatting now with some folks in debian-edu about ldap stuff, and how they handle pre-conf of ldap.
[15:12] <LaserJock> ah, excellent
[15:15] <sbalneav> Here's what I'd like to accomplish: maybe someone (LaserJock) can tell me if this is possible.
[15:15] <sbalneav> package called edubuntu-ldap-conf
[15:15] <sbalneav> pre-depends on slapd
[15:16] <sbalneav> somehow manages to pre-seed some of the debconf questions that the slapd package asks
[15:16] <sbalneav> is that possible?
[15:16] <alkisg> Wouldn't that be "post-depends"?
[15:16] <alkisg> (I don't know if such a thing exists...)
[15:16] <LaserJock> no
[15:16] <LaserJock> it'd have to be pre-depends
[15:16] <LaserJock> but even then I don't know if you can pre-seed debconf like that
[15:17] <sbalneav> eurgh
[15:17] <sbalneav> slapd asks lots of nasty questions
[15:17] <sbalneav> like
[15:17] <LaserJock> well, we can preseed on install
[15:17] <sbalneav> "What do you want to use for your back end database? HDB or DBD?"
[15:18] <LaserJock> that's why I like having a DVD
[15:18] <alkisg> How about this one: pre-depends "sbalneav's-slapd-helper", and depends "slapd" => this way wouldn't the helper run before the slapd, and get a chance to seed it?
[15:18] <LaserJock> we lost a lot of flexibility
[15:18] <sbalneav> Can task-sel's preseed?
[15:19] <LaserJock> not sure, I don't think so though
[15:19] <LaserJock> but I know you can preseed in the text-based installer
[15:23] <LaserJock> stgraber: ping
[15:28] <LaserJock> darn it, I think I'm going to have to make the DVD huge again
[15:31] <sbalneav> Well, define huge? :) less than 4.7 gigs I hope :)
[15:31] <LaserJock> yes
[15:31] <LaserJock> but maybe adding another GB
[15:32] <LaserJock> right now you can't install edubuntu-desktop off of the text-based installer
[15:32] <LaserJock> also, I've narrowed down the included languages to like the top 5 or so
[15:33] <sbalneav> We don't have enough room for all of 'em?
[15:33] <LaserJock> we could just not have edubuntu-desktop installable via d-i
[15:33] <LaserJock> well, technically yeah
[15:34] <LaserJock> but I'm afraid if we load up the DVD the first round 1) it doesn't leave a lot of room for future expansion and 2) might scare off a lot of people with a huge download just to try it out
[15:36] <LaserJock> I just add on greek and finnish
[15:36] <alkisg> :)
[15:37] <alkisg> LaserJock: how much MB do the additional languages "cost"?
[15:37] <LaserJock> I don't know
[15:37] <LaserJock> I'm trying to figure that out
[15:37] <ogra> LaserJock, pitti has a table with that
[15:37] <ogra> language by size
[15:38] <LaserJock> ogra: is it on people.canonical.com you think?
[15:39] <ogra> yes, but i dont know the exact url
[15:39] <jbicha> LaserJock: it looks like ltsp-server-standalone is part of edubuntu-server because it's being installed right now on my text-based install
[15:39] <LaserJock> jbicha: hmm, it should be
[15:40] <jbicha> but I thought you said earlier it wasn't
[15:42] <LaserJock> sorry
[15:42] <LaserJock> *shouldn't be
[15:42]  * LaserJock is doing a million things and his typing is suffering
[15:43] <LaserJock> so it looks like the languages run something like 10-20MB/language
[15:44] <LaserJock> there are a total of 135 language
[15:44] <LaserJock> so yeah, including all of them will be ~ 1GB
[15:45] <jbicha> well we don't need 135 languages by default
[15:48] <LaserJock> jbicha: right, but the question is what ones do we need
[15:49] <LaserJock> I have a list of like the top 10 most spoken languages
[15:54] <alkisg> Well if you could get your hands on the previous edubuntu download stats...
[15:55] <LaserJock> hmm
[15:59] <LaserJock> ok, well, that's the lang pack issue
[16:00] <LaserJock> edubuntu-desktop doesn't show up because the edubuntu-desktop.deb isn't on the DVD
[16:00] <LaserJock> the question is if we want to have it possible for people to install Edubuntu standalone in the text-based installer
[16:02] <alkisg> Is a text-based installer necessary?
[16:04] <stgraber> LaserJock: pong
[16:04] <LaserJock> stgraber: do you know if there is supposed to be a LTSP task?
[16:04] <LaserJock> in tasksel?
[16:05] <LaserJock> alkisg: it is for anything other than Edubuntu standalone
[16:05] <jbicha> alkisg: if the graphics card is not out-of-the-box supported by Ubuntu, then yes; for instance I need to use the alternate Ubuntu Karmic CD for most of my home computers
[16:05] <LaserJock> alkisg: but it could also be useful for people doing RAID/LVM or low memory, or yeah, graphics card problems
[16:05] <alkisg> jbicha: doesn't the "safe graphics mode" work for you?
[16:05] <LaserJock> it could be useful but I'm wondering if it's worth an extra ~500MB
[16:06] <jbicha> no, it did in Jaunty but xforcevesa seems broken for me on Karmic
[16:07] <jbicha> I've tried complaining about it but haven't got any feedback
[16:08] <alkisg> LaserJock, "it is for anything other than Edubuntu standalone" ==> what do you mean by that?
[16:08] <LaserJock> alkisg: I mean that an Edubuntu "workstation" (i.e. no server bits, just edu apps) can be installed via the live part of the DVD
[16:09] <LaserJock> nothing else, like LTSP, Edubuntu Server, etc. can be installed that way, only via the text-based installer
[16:09] <alkisg> LTSP is too big to be contained in the dvd - except if someone packages the chroot
[16:10] <ogra> alkisg, the live installer only copies the squashfs to the target device
[16:10] <alkisg> ogra, sure, but couldn't the CD also contain some packages outside of the squashfs image?
[16:10] <ogra> if you would want different flavours you would need a full squashfs setup for each of them
[16:11] <LaserJock> alkisg: LTSP fits fine on the DVD
[16:11] <ogra> alkisg, for ltsp you could work out a way to hook the udeb scripts into the live installer and make it build the chroot/image at the end of the install from CD
[16:11] <LaserJock> but not as a live installation currently
[16:11] <alkisg> ogra, it would still need to download 200 Mb from the internet
[16:11] <ogra> it simply requires someone to write the code :)
[16:11] <ogra> no, it wouldnt
[16:12] <ogra> since you have all packages on DVD already
[16:12] <alkisg> What I'm saying is that do we need those packages?
[16:12] <ogra> it will indeed only work in that setup
[16:12] <LaserJock> ogra: we wouldn't have then on the squashfs though would we?
[16:13] <ogra> LaserJock, nope, but ubiquity can use hook scripts
[16:13] <alkisg> Do we really need a text installer? Even if it costs 500 mb?
[16:13] <ogra> you can install additional stuff to the squashfs, but you need to explicitly code that
[16:13] <LaserJock> well, wait
[16:13] <ogra> alkisg, ??
[16:13] <ogra> alkisg, i think you understand the design wrong :)
[16:14] <alkisg> OK /me will stop talking, finish downloading the dvd, and talk again later :)
[16:14] <ogra> what costs you extra 500MB is the live installer :)
[16:14] <LaserJock> what's costing 500MB would be if we want to have edubuntu-desktop to be installable *both* from the Live part and the text-based part
[16:14] <LaserJock> i.e. you can install it from either installer
[16:14] <ogra> you need to
[16:14] <ogra> else ltsp wont work
[16:14] <LaserJock> no
[16:14] <LaserJock> ltsp just works on ubuntu-desktop
[16:14] <LaserJock> right?
[16:15] <ogra> well, yes, but then you dont have an edubuntu ltsp server
[16:15] <LaserJock> I'm saying if we don't put edubuntu-desktop on that we don't have to have the KDE stuff, gcompris, etc.
[16:15] <LaserJock> right
[16:16] <LaserJock> so I'm wondering how necessarily is it that it be an "Edubuntu" LTSP server
[16:16] <jbicha> moodle doesn't work right if I select mysql-server
[16:16] <LaserJock> darn it
[16:16] <LaserJock> stupid moodle
[16:16] <ogra> so you have no text based workstation install anymore (like it used to be) ?
[16:16] <LaserJock> I hate that thing
[16:16] <LaserJock> ogra: right now no
[16:16] <ogra> yeah, moodle is a pain
[16:17] <LaserJock> ogra: I sort of accidentally dropped edubuntu-desktop from the seed
[16:17] <ogra> ah
[16:17] <jbicha> I presume it works if I select the default postgresql
[16:17] <LaserJock> so I'm wondering if I should put it back in
[16:17] <ogra> if you have the space
[16:17] <LaserJock> jbicha: I doubt it
[16:17] <LaserJock> ogra: well, I have 4.2GB :-)
[16:17] <ogra> i think it works better with pgsql
[16:17] <LaserJock> ogra: I just don't like making everybody download that much
[16:18] <ogra> i know moquist put some effort into getting the default work
[16:18] <LaserJock> we're going from a 300 MB download (well, really 700+300MB)
[16:18] <ogra> so pgsql might work where mysql doesnt
[16:18] <jbicha> moodle allows me to pick mysql or postgre but doesn't check to see if mysql was installed first
[16:18] <LaserJock> yeah, but something with pgsql got messed up
[16:18] <ogra> ah
[16:18] <LaserJock> at least people have reported that it no longer works
[16:18] <ogra> well, my info is two years old :)
[16:18] <LaserJock> I think the moodle part might be ok
[16:19] <LaserJock> but something with pgsql has changed
[16:19] <ogra> not completely
[16:19] <ogra> it should have a pre-depends
[16:19] <ogra> but then you have to select a DB server and hardcode it
[16:19] <LaserJock> well
[16:19] <LaserJock> "ok" as in, it was working if you selected pgsql
[16:19] <ogra> which probably breaks existing setups with mysql
[16:20] <ogra> damned choice in linux :P
[16:20] <LaserJock> I really should make edubuntu-server dep on LTSP and edubuntu-desktop
[16:20] <LaserJock> and drop moodle until we figure out how to make it work right
[16:20] <ogra> ++
[16:20] <ogra> better than to ship something broken
[16:21] <LaserJock> especially since it comes up in the task list
[16:21] <ogra> and kick alkisg's butt for lucid so he ports ltsp-client-builder.udeb to ubiquity ;)
[16:21] <jbicha> it's too bad schooltool doesn't work Karmic's new zope yet either
[16:21] <alkisg> Trying to understand, take #2: the dvd contains a live image *and* some .deb files. The live image contains approximately what's gonna be installed in a workstation. The *.deb files could contain only the added features for a server installation, i.e. apache, moodle etc. On the other hand, LTSP needs a full set of packages in order to be installed. Why would we put those as *.deb files?
[16:21] <alkisg> ogra: right! :)
[16:22] <ogra> alkisg, because the build system does only support that atm
[16:22] <ogra> as well as the installers
[16:22] <jbicha> and it's not possible for the text-installer to apply the live image if we want to install "edubuntu-desktop"?
[16:22] <ogra> right
[16:22] <ogra> they work completely differently
[16:23] <alkisg> So we keep all those packages for the case that someone wants to use the text installer? Couldn't we just tell that guy to use plain ubuntu and install edubuntu-desktop later on? :D
[16:24] <ogra> the text installer gives you biggest flexibility ... you surely have 100s of different install variants with it ... the live installer only supports a single way of installation
[16:24] <alkisg> Sure, but that's what edubuntu is about: LESS options :D
[16:24] <ogra> alkisg, no, you keep all these packages for any other install than live
[16:24] <alkisg> (=to make it easier for teachers)
[16:25] <ogra> the live install (from a tech POV) is the actual wart here ... not the text install
[16:26] <alkisg> ogra: ok, try to see it from the teacher POV, who isn't really interested about the text installer...
[16:26] <alkisg> I.e. if he sees xforcevesa problems, he'll call the tech
[16:26] <alkisg> The tech may as well use the standard ubuntu cd/dvd, and install edubuntu-desktop later on
[16:26] <ogra>  alkisg so teachers are not intrested in anything but edubuntu dekstops ?
[16:26] <ogra> i doubt that
[16:26] <alkisg> So why keep the text installer in the edubuntu dvd? (from the teacher POV)
[16:27] <ogra> ogra@osiris:~$ grep -c ^Task /usr/share/tasksel/ubuntu-tasks.desc
[16:27] <ogra> 46
[16:27] <ogra> the text installer offers 46 preselected install variants plus any you can imagine if you intevene manually
[16:27] <ogra> the live installer offers exactly one
[16:28] <alkisg> Sure. As an sysadmin, I totally agree with you
[16:28] <alkisg> As a teacher, I don't understand what are you saying
[16:28] <sbalneav> Personally, I'd prefer to see us ditch the graphical installer, and go purely with an alternative install disk.
[16:28] <alkisg> :)
[16:28] <ogra> alkisg, *you* were the one pushing for LTSP installs from the edubuntu media
[16:28] <alkisg> ogra: sure, from within ubuquity
[16:28] <alkisg> Not from a text installer...
[16:28] <sbalneav> that way, people can use the dvd for ltsp installs.
[16:28] <ogra> if you think it's to compilcated for teahers, you should consider dropping it
[16:29] <ogra> alkisg, so where is the port of ltsp-client-builder to ubiquity ? :P
[16:29] <alkisg> Right! Now we're talking... :D
[16:29] <ogra> why didnt you port it yet
[16:29] <ogra> slacker  !!!
[16:29] <ogra> :P
[16:30] <alkisg> Because I'm stilll struggling with the ldap stuff, and waiting for sbalneav to give me his divine click-and-have-ldap-ready packages..
[16:30] <ogra> i think it's a good target to support it in lucid ..., i'm happy to give a hand with it
[16:30] <ogra> for karmic i think its simply over now
[16:30] <ogra> we're in final freeze
[16:30] <alkisg> ogra, well, whenever you got some time, I'd like your advice on how to do that
[16:30] <ogra> nothing but bugs marked critical will be touched anymore
[16:31] <ogra> alkisg, look at flash-kernel, it uses an udeb thats been originally written for the text installer ...
[16:31] <alkisg> E.g. me, highvoltage and LaserJock exchanged some thoughts about it, but don't have enough experience to select one method over the other...
[16:31] <ogra> this udeb (or it's postinst) is used by ubiquity
[16:32] <ogra> you can use ltsp-client-builder the same way
[16:32] <alkisg> OK, I'll have a look into that and try to see if we can have something for lucid
[16:32] <sbalneav> alkisg: what, are you expecting me to do this NOW? I was expecting to hopefully have something for 10.04
[16:33] <alkisg> sbalneav: nah, just joking man :)
[16:33] <alkisg> Take your time
[16:33] <sbalneav> Whew.
[16:33]  * alkisg wants to look at the virtual-users thing first
[16:33] <alkisg> I think it'll be even better than ldap/nfs
[16:34] <sbalneav> Remind me.  What virtual users thing?
[16:34] <alkisg> Hmmm I don't gonna spoil the conversation with my silly thoughts... ok, here it goes:
[16:35] <alkisg> Usually more than one students sit on every PC. This makes it difficult to manage user accounts
[16:36] <alkisg> E.g. I name an account 'name1name2' from the names of the 2 students sitting on 1 pc
[16:36] <alkisg> Then, in the middle of the year, those 2 students take a fight, and don't want to sit together anymore
[16:36] <alkisg> I have to change the username, the path etc
[16:36] <alkisg> Then they always forget their passwords
[16:37] <alkisg> So "normal" user accounts don't mean much to teachers with multiple students per pc
[16:38] <alkisg> I thought this: what if only 1 user account existed per pc? named "user"?
[16:38] <alkisg> ...and all the home folders were "under" the teacher's "Documents"?
[16:38] <alkisg> ...and were mounted with sshfs on the clients?
[16:39] <alkisg> This way I could even move exercises around not concerning myself with ACLs etc,
[16:39] <alkisg> All the users would have /home/user as their home path making settings migration easier,
[16:39] <sbalneav> 200 megs of child porn show up under the home dir "user" on one of the machines.  Which of the 6 kids who log in on that machine did it?
[16:40] <alkisg> (that also helps with wine...)
[16:40] <sbalneav> One person, one account.
[16:40] <alkisg> All the student PCs have gdm set to autologon
[16:40] <sbalneav> Bad idea.
[16:40] <sbalneav> have them log in.
[16:40] <alkisg> The teacher preselects which class he wants to have
[16:41] <alkisg> So pc1/home/user maps to 'name1' with sshfs
[16:41] <alkisg> pc2/home/user maps to 'name2'
[16:41] <alkisg> When the class finishes, the teacher selects another set of users to autologon
[16:41] <alkisg> so pc1/home/user now maps to 'name15'
[16:41] <sbalneav> That's a HUGE change to how unix normally works.
[16:41] <alkisg> Right
[16:42] <sbalneav> you will run into MULTIPLE problems with many programs not liking that behaviour.
[16:42] <alkisg> Why? All that program will see is ONE user, with his path at /home/usr
[16:42] <alkisg> user
[16:42] <sbalneav> If you'd like to implement yourself that personally on your site, be my guest.
[16:42] <alkisg> If they can work with sshfs, they won't see any other users...
[16:43] <alkisg> Remember some people that come up to #ltsp and were asking to logon all the clients with the same user account?
[16:43] <sbalneav> But it's not going to be anything that I'm going to spend one iota of time on for edubuntu.
[16:43] <alkisg> Right
[16:43] <sbalneav> And we tell them: use multiple accounts.  The way you should.
[16:43] <alkisg> I'm not saying that this should be something for #edubuntu
[16:44] <alkisg> But I think it'll make things a lot easier for schools here in Greece, and maybe for those other people that asked the same thing in #ltsp
[16:44] <alkisg> Sure, until it's tried and working for several years, I'm not going to suggest to put such a thing upstream...
[16:45] <sbalneav> I say this with all respect and niceness, but it's a stupid idea.  drop it.  If you have ANY sort of trouble, there's NO way you're going to be able to PROVE who did what when.
[16:45] <sbalneav> Trust me: I work in the legal field.
[16:45] <alkisg> Why are you saying that? Each user still has his own home dir
[16:46] <alkisg> It's just symlinked to /home/user before the user logs in
[16:46] <sbalneav> but they *haven't authenticated themselves*
[16:46] <sbalneav> Like I say, porn shows up.  Kid says "I didn't do it.  Prove I did"
[16:46] <sbalneav> you cant.
[16:46] <alkisg> Sure i can
[16:46] <sbalneav> How?
[16:47] <alkisg> It's in his home folder
[16:47] <alkisg> in .mozilla
[16:47] <sbalneav> Yeah?  Who selected the home folder for him?
[16:47] <alkisg> You mean the act of entering a password?
[16:47] <sbalneav> You said the teacher selects the class, right?
[16:48] <alkisg> Yes, and has written down the names of the users and where they sit
[16:48] <alkisg> So he knows that students 1, 2 and 3 sit on PC1
[16:48] <sbalneav> And teachers *NEVER EVER EVER* make mistakes, and select the WRONG class, right?
[16:48] <sbalneav> Won't stand up in a court of law.
[16:49] <sbalneav> Won't even stand up to an angry parent.
[16:49] <alkisg> But 2 or 3 students are sitting on the same PC, you can't prove which of them started the porn thing
[16:49] <alkisg> You've already lost your case, even with normal user accounts
[16:49] <sbalneav> Sure you can.
[16:50] <sbalneav> If they log in AS THEMSELVES
[16:50] <sbalneav> That's why you HAVE to have 1 login per student, and force them to log in.
[16:50] <alkisg> They can't; the 2 or 3 of them need to have a shared account
[16:50] <sbalneav> Why?
[16:50] <alkisg> Because we only have 10 PCs for 20 students
[16:50] <alkisg> (or for 30 students)
[16:51] <alkisg> You can't tell them "you sit and logon, and the others just watch"
[16:51] <sbalneav> So, what, one types, one moves the mouse, and one watches the screen?
[16:51] <alkisg> Yes, and after 10 minutes they switch
[16:51] <alkisg> They even get a common degree (more or less)
[16:52] <sbalneav> Why can't one use it for 10 minutes, switch to another user, they use it for 10 minutes, etc?
[16:52] <alkisg> Because you'd loose all the time with user switching
[16:52] <alkisg> Imagine:
[16:52] <alkisg> Guys we start an exercise with gimp
[16:53] <alkisg> First student draws 1/3 of the image. Saves, logs off
[16:53] <alkisg> Second student logs on. Copies the exercise from the first student. Draws another 3rd, saves, logs off
[16:53] <alkisg> Third students logs on... etc
[16:53] <sbalneav> Oh, please, logging out and in takes less than 30 seconds!
[16:53] <sbalneav> and you put the image in a shared area.
[16:53] <sbalneav> they don't HAVE to copy it around.
[16:53] <alkisg> Tell a 10 y.o. student to copy a file from another home folder :)
[16:54] <sbalneav> I've had shared folders for YEARS.
[16:54] <alkisg> For kids < 10 y.o., the teacher put their password himself
[16:54] <alkisg> Do that for 30 students...
[16:55]  * sbalneav shrugs
[16:55] <sbalneav> Like I say, you've got absolutely NO way to say who's done what.
[16:55] <sbalneav> None.
[16:56] <alkisg> Sure I have... one of those 3 guys :) That's the best I can do.
[16:56] <alkisg> sbalneav: I've tried to have seperate accounts per students. It just isn't feasible in my situation...
[16:57] <sbalneav> alkisg: "one of those 3 guys" don't stand up in court.
[16:57] <sbalneav> and trust me
[16:58] <sbalneav> sooner or later, you're going to HAVE to narrow it down to "one of those 3 guys"
[16:58] <sbalneav> and since you CANT
[16:58] <sbalneav> it means you've got nothing :)
[16:58] <sbalneav> Just sayin' is all :)
[16:58] <alkisg> sbalneav: I've been burned by the law before for silly beurocracy things, I totally share your concern. It's just isn't possible.
[16:59] <LaserJock> can I interject some reality?
[16:59] <sbalneav> OK, well, that's fine, so long as you go into it with eyes open
[16:59] <LaserJock> we still haven't decided what to do for karmic
[17:00] <alkisg> sbalneav: currently, about 90% of greek teachers have one user per pc. Just one user per pc, not one user per class per pc. :)
[17:00]  * sbalneav scrolls back
[17:00]  * alkisg stops talking :)
[17:00] <sbalneav> LaserJock: Which, the ltsp tasksel we talking here?
[17:01] <LaserJock> well
[17:02] <LaserJock> 1) do we ship edubuntu-desktop in the text-based installer?
[17:02] <sbalneav> I'd say yes, if possible.
[17:02] <sbalneav> As I preferr the text based installer.
[17:03] <LaserJock> ok
[17:04] <LaserJock> 2) should we ship edubuntu-server (currently a broken moodle installer)?
[17:07] <stgraber> LaserJock: sorry for the delay
[17:07] <stgraber> LaserJock: it's not a task, it's a d-i component that you use by passing a custom .seed file
[17:07] <stgraber> going for some food, later all
[17:07] <LaserJock> hmm
[17:08] <LaserJock> this is confusing
[17:08] <jbicha> there's something ironic about children downloading child porn though
[17:08] <sbalneav> LaserJock: Hmm, if moodle's broken...
[17:08] <LaserJock> I swear there was a tasksel item for it
[17:08] <sbalneav> can we just dump moodle from edubuntu-server until we get it fixed?
[17:08] <alkisg> jbicha: lol! :D
[17:08] <LaserJock> sbalneav: well, all edubuntu-server is right now is a moodle installer
[17:09] <jbicha> & an LTSP server installer, right?
[17:09] <LaserJock> no
[17:09] <LaserJock> edubuntu-server shouldn't do anything with LTSP
[17:09] <jbicha> then how'd it get on my computer?
[17:10] <LaserJock> I don't know
[17:10] <jbicha> text install: I only selected edubuntu-server openssh-server and Ubuntu Desktop
[17:13] <ogra> jbicha, ise f4
[17:13] <LaserJock> man I hate this seed stuff
[17:13] <ogra> *use
[17:13] <LaserJock> f4 doesn't have any LTSP option for us
[17:13] <ogra> you select an edubuntu-server and use F4 to switch on the LTSP installation
[17:13] <ogra> oh
[17:13] <ogra> why is that ?
[17:13] <LaserJock> I have no idea
[17:14] <LaserJock> my guess is that maybe it's using an outdated file somewhere in the build script
[17:14] <ogra> well, seems it wasnt properly switched to the DVD
[17:14] <LaserJock> ok
[17:14] <ogra> it needs some preseed values and an entry in gfxboot
[17:14] <LaserJock> so what *should* happen
[17:15] <ogra> it should show you "Install an LTSP Server" in the F4 menu
[17:15] <LaserJock> is you hit F4 select LTSP, then go to the text-based installer
[17:15] <ogra> and that applies to *all* text based installs
[17:15] <LaserJock> and in there get the tasksel thing to fine-tune the non-LTSP components?
[17:18] <ogra> well, you get dropped into tasksel anyway in the text installer
[17:19] <ogra> the F4 option just triggers that the ltep env gets build at some point during install
[17:19] <ogra> *ltsp
[17:23] <LaserJock> so maybe it's just automatic on our DVD?
[17:23] <LaserJock> we already have it preseeded
[17:23] <alkisg> ogra, so if we press "Esc" on the installer to see the installer menu, we'd see the ltsp option on the edubuntu dvd?>:o=-Ohhsut47htrtfg
[17:23] <alkisg> g66yyt
[17:24] <alkisg> uu
[17:24] <alkisg> yhyty
[17:24] <alkisg> tytggyhuhugyydssazrefgrefgh;'p;kll'lk
[17:24] <alkisg> 4dasrdgdf4t4r
[17:24] <alkisg> awfd54tg
[17:24] <alkisg> er64t5gyhm
[17:25] <alkisg> (sorry my kid got the keyboard and I was away :))
[17:25]  * ogra tries severeal decipher mechanisms ...
[17:25] <ogra> ah, kid-cypher works :)
[17:25] <ogra> i dont know abour esc
[17:25] <ogra> *about
[17:25] <ogra> doesnt the gfxboot screen come up by default ?
[17:26] <alkisg> No no I mean after that, in the d-i
[17:26] <ogra> oh, esc wont do anything there
[17:26] <ogra> i think you need "go back"
[17:26] <alkisg> Right
[17:26] <alkisg> So ltsp will be there in the list of tasks?
[17:26] <ogra> and yes, there you should have an LTSP option to manually select
[17:27] <ogra> which is very uncomfortable :)
[17:27] <ogra> and the reason why i added the F4 option that autoselects the LTSP udeb
[17:30] <LaserJock> grrr
[17:30] <LaserJock> so perhaps it's the preseeds we're using
[17:31] <LaserJock> ubuntu has an ltsp.preseed
[17:32] <LaserJock> ubuntu has a cli, ltsp, and ubuntu preseed file
[17:33] <LaserJock> edubuntu has cli, cloud, edubuntu, ubuntu server, ubuntu-server-minimal, ubuntu-server-minimalvm, and workstation
[17:34] <ogra> yeah, you need the ltsp one too
[17:36] <LaserJock> so should I modify the edubuntu seed to take out the ltsp bits?
[17:36] <LaserJock> edubuntu preseed rather
[17:37] <ogra> no, you should just add the ltsp one
[17:39] <LaserJock> hmm
[17:39] <LaserJock> but wouldn't that still mean that no matter what you choose you'll get LTSP?
[17:49] <jbicha> so I tried moodle with postgre and I get the lovely PGSQL.5342 error which completely stops the installation
[17:50] <jbicha> which is prob worse than the failed mysql attempt which doesn't tell you it is broken
[17:53] <LaserJock> yeah, something's messed up
[17:54] <LaserJock> ogra: so you think just dropping the ltsp.preseed in there should work?
[17:55] <ogra> i think so, but it's years ago i touched that area of d-i so better confirm with someone from the installer team
[18:06] <Ahmuck> http://blogs.zdnet.com/perlow/?p=11197
[18:07] <Ahmuck> it's a good read
[18:07] <Ahmuck> Like my CEO example, these people may generate “soft” work products (word processing documents, spreadsheets, presentations, PDFs) that are going to be printed hardcopy, are usually not of a complex nature and/or do not need to be exchanged or originate from Windows/MS Office environments. The majority of home users fit into this category, as do high school and college students.
[18:11] <jbicha> I don't think mysql is even available on the edubuntu dvd
[18:12] <LaserJock> jbicha: that's entirely possible
[18:12] <LaserJock> jbicha: edubuntu-server is meant to use pgsql
[18:12] <jbicha> I've never used pgsql; are you supposed to setup a root password first like you do for mysql?
[18:13] <Ahmuck> edubuntu-server ?
[18:13] <Ahmuck> i've been here a while, but never heard of edubuntu-server
[18:14] <LaserJock> jbicha: I can't remember, I think it asks fewer questions though
[18:15] <LaserJock> Ahmuck: yeah, well ... you ain't missing much right now ;-)
[18:15] <Ahmuck> what is it?
[18:15] <Ahmuck> there are advantages/disadvantages either way.
[18:16] <LaserJock> the idea was to pull together useful server software for educational institutions
[18:16] <Ahmuck> any way of making it database neutral?
[18:16] <ogra> thats the prob
[18:16] <LaserJock> moodle, mediawiki maybe, schooltool perhaps
[18:16] <ogra> it *is* database neutral
[18:16] <Ahmuck> so pgsql is not used for writing?
[18:16] <ogra> which causes tons of failures
[18:16] <Ahmuck> as in hard writing, but simply as a storage mechanism?
[18:16] <LaserJock> the only thing we actually got into Main was moodle
[18:17] <Ahmuck> my understanding is that for reading, mysql is very good, and very easy to use/configure
[18:18] <LaserJock> you mean for reading the database?
[18:18] <Ahmuck> yes
[18:19] <LaserJock> well moodle will be doing both
[18:19] <LaserJock> mysql is pretty large
[18:19] <LaserJock> some people consider it sort of "bloat" for the purposes of an educational server
[18:19] <ogra> less bloat than oracle though :P
[18:20] <Ahmuck> i think you need to consider your user base
[18:21] <ogra> Ahmuck, hmm ?
[18:21] <Ahmuck> i've found pgsql more complex for new users
[18:21] <ogra> what has the user base to do with technical  packaging probs ?
[18:21] <Ahmuck> and unless your doing a large percentage of writes, i've found mysql to be very usable
[18:21] <ogra> a user will never touch any database directly
[18:21] <Ahmuck> never have to configure, setup, etc.?
[18:21] <LaserJock> hopefully not
[18:22] <Ahmuck> ur user is not the final end user, but the instructor that is setting the @#$%# up
[18:22] <ogra> the point is that moodle as it is in debian (and as we get it from them) runs on single standalone servers as wellas on 100 server clusters
[18:22] <ogra> so it is highly configurable and has a ton of options
[18:23] <ogra> what we attempted to do years ago when i created edubuntu-server was to have an out of the box setup that you can manage directly after install through the moodle admin interface
[18:23] <ogra> no user or admin should ever touch a database
[18:23] <ogra> the prob is the high configurability of the debian package here
[18:24] <ogra> and to find a proper setup for edubuntu without breaking that high configurability
[18:24] <ogra> so far all attempts failed
[18:24] <Ahmuck> k, makes sense.
[18:25] <Ahmuck> i'm back to lurking now
[18:25] <ogra> an enduser/admin should just select edubuntu-server at install time and get a properly working setup
[18:25] <ogra> that's been the ubuntu philosophy since the beginning ... its just not easy to achieve if you want to retain the debian flexibility
[18:41] <jbicha> is "No Interface for LTSP dhcpd configuration found" a normal error because I get it every time on the text-based installer
[19:07] <alkisg> That's because you don't have 2 ethernet cards... /me wishes the ltsp installer would install dnsmasq in that case ;)
[19:09] <jbicha> does dnsmasq work so it doesn't require 2 ethernet cards? I've never used ltsp
[19:10] <alkisg> Well there are 2 main cases with 1 card: either the ltsp server is also the dhcp server, or it isn't. dnsmasq can work in both of those cases, but mainly helps in the second case.
[20:05] <highvoltage> hi
[20:08] <LaserJock> hi
[20:12] <jbicha> ah, I think I finally figured out how to get moodle working
[20:20] <jbicha> I chose to "deny all except localhost" during installation, well it looks like apache2 was registering me as ::1 instead of 127.0.0.1
[20:21] <jbicha> I created a page with the issues I've found, I don't know if you want bug reports for any of them https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/KarmicKnownIssues
[20:21] <jbicha> highvoltage: you were in Bahrain once, right?
[20:23] <highvoltage> jbicha: yep
[20:24] <jbicha> highvoltage: I believe you're famous in our Linux group
[20:25] <highvoltage> jbicha: heh! I *almost* went to a meeting of yours once, but otherwise I can't imaging why :)
[20:26] <jbicha> yeah, we were expecting you
[20:26] <highvoltage> well, tonight a random guy sitting next to me on a plane recognised me from planet ubuntu, so that was a bit weird.
[20:26] <jbicha> next time you're in Bahrain, be sure to stop by
[20:26] <highvoltage> jbicha: will do. I have some good friends there, perhaps next year
[20:27] <sbalneav> Hmmm, looks like debian-edu's using cipux for handling admin tasks.
[20:27] <sbalneav> http://wiki.debian.org/CipUX?action=show&redirect=DebianEdu%2FCipUX
[20:27] <jbicha> looks like Bahrain gets to open next Formula 1 season, look forward to meeting you if it works out
[20:36] <jbicha> what does the "unattended operation" checkbox do when setting up Moodle?
[20:40] <LaserJock> sbalneav: does CipUX look useful?
[20:54] <jbicha> at least part of cipux is in the Karmic repos
[21:34] <chang-li> hi , can ltsp-server & edubuntu work with the xfce install?
[21:34] <LaserJock> yeah
[21:35] <LaserJock> you might end up having to install a lot of packages, but it should work fine
[21:35] <chang-li> I am install via pxe & tftpboot  xubuntu.
[21:36] <chang-li> Then I guess, will install ltsp-server.
[21:37] <dgroos> Good afternoon.
[21:38] <chang-li> hi
[21:39] <dgroos> chang-li: howdy
[21:40] <dgroos> my ltsp clients can't boot :(
[21:42] <chang-li> i'm not there yet. just doing a net install via tftboot of xubuntu.
[21:44] <dgroos> not sure how to address this.  They seem to load an image, but then give an error just as the loading splash screen starts to show.
[21:51] <sbalneav> LaserJock: Looks... interesting anyway.
[21:51] <sbalneav> I'll have to start playing with it.
[21:51] <chang-li> dgroos: could be default video setting
[21:51] <sbalneav> The debian-edu people are stoked that someone from edubuntu's in there talking to them.
[21:52] <dgroos> chang-li: thanks.
[21:52] <LaserJock> sbalneav: well, we've always been here :-)
[21:52] <dgroos> is that something that would just change?
[21:54] <dgroos> I'm thinking it might be a network setting.  After it doesn't boot successfully, it says a few things about address and gateway etc.. then:
[21:55] <dgroos> Error: Connect: Connection refused
[21:56] <dgroos> I don't get why it says (just a little before the previous message I just posted): rootserver: 192.168.0.77
[21:58] <GJ> Look in your /etc/ltsp/dhcpd.conf file
[21:58] <dgroos> GJ: thanks, I'll check it out!  what am I looking for?
[22:00] <GJ> The option routers xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx should point at the server.
[22:00] <GJ> I got in on this conversation late, so I'm assuming your LTSP server is not at the ip address you gave above.
[22:01] <dgroos> hmmm... it points to 192.168.0.1, not the building nic, 10.51.0.199  is that right?
[22:02] <GJ> Is 192.168.0.1 the address of the server on which the ltsp chroot is located?
[22:04] <dgroos> well, 192.168.0.1 has always been the ip I would get on the nic pointing toward the switch which goes to my thin client lan, if that's what you mean?
[22:04] <dgroos> I'd see this when I did an ifconfig, for example.
[22:05] <GJ> Well, that's configured correctly then.
[22:05] <GJ> I had that same message and finally got past that yesterday. Let me try to remember what I did.
[22:06] <GJ> I tried so many different things to resolve the issue that I cant remember what finally fixed it.
[22:07] <dgroos> :)  I've been there many times...
[22:08] <dgroos> On the TC screen where the failure is occurring, it says:
[22:11] <dgroos> dns0 : 192.168.0.1 (seems fine) dns1 :     0.0.0.0   domain : example.com  rootserver: 192.168.0.77   rootpath: /opt/ltsp/i386  filename :  /ltsp/i386/nbi.img   Error:  Connect:  Connection refused (this all, from the 0.0.0.0 seems strange)
[22:13] <GJ> I know I removed the /opt directory and the /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp directory and then ran "sudo ltsp-build-client --arch i386.
[22:17] <LaserJock> phew
[22:17] <LaserJock> well
[22:18] <LaserJock> I think I fixed the DVD
[22:19] <LaserJock> it turns out the DVD was 1) using the old preseed file from the "good ole days" of the 2 CD installer and 2) we weren't in the list of projects to include the LTSP option
[22:22] <LaserJock> I also added several more of the top used languages and greek and finnish for our friends ;-)
[22:22] <sbalneav> \o/
[22:22] <GJ> dgroos, is your server 32 or 64 bit?
[22:23] <dgroos> 32 AFAIK
[22:24] <GJ> So your chroot environment is i386 then, right? and /opt/ltsp/i386 exists?
[22:25] <GJ> rather than /opt/ltsp/amd64?
[22:25] <dgroos> hmmm... I just tried to reboot again (done this a few times) on the client and it got further this time, almost seemed to make it all the way but went back to the same screen :(
[22:25] <dgroos> yes it does...
[22:26] <GJ> what OS are you using?
[22:26] <dgroos> Another part of the error message that shows up is, "target filesystem doesn't have /sbin/init.  No init found.  Try passing init-bootarg.  Does this mean anything?
[22:26] <dgroos> I'm using Jaunty...
[22:26] <GJ> No doubt because the volumes aren't mounting properly.
[22:27] <dgroos> I see, that's what it means, yes, it says that...
[22:28] <GJ> You are experiencing exactly the same situation I struggled with for 3 days.
[22:28] <dgroos> seems like the strange thing is the rootserver: 192.168.0.77...
[22:28] <dgroos> Had you been doing anything with iTALC?
[22:29] <dgroos> Had your system been working fine for a good while?
[22:29] <GJ> I just installed Jaunty on a server with a new hard drive Sunday and finally resolved the last of the LTSP issues this morning.
[22:29] <GJ> No iTALC
[22:29] <dgroos> Congratulations :D  It sure is great when it works!
[22:30] <dgroos> I've been running successfully for almost a month in my class.
[22:30] <GJ> Are there any other DHCP servers on your network? I just can't figure out why your rootserver address is wrong
[22:31] <dgroos> And then this just popped up as I'm now expanding: adding another teacher and his classes.  And, his hardware.
[22:31] <dgroos> When you say network, do you mean the thin client side or the building side?
[22:31] <GJ> Can you ping this 192.168.0.77 address?
[22:32] <dgroos> it says, ping: icmp open socket: Operation not permitted
[22:32] <dgroos> not sure what that means.
[22:32] <GJ> Did you ping from the server?
[22:33] <dgroos> I'm ssh'ed into the server and ran it from there... but I can use NXclient and get onto the server and run from that desktop... I'll try that!
[22:34] <GJ> I always kick myself for not recording every step I take to resolve issues, but I'm always in such a hurry that I dont want to "waste time" writing things down.
[22:36] <dgroos> :)
[22:36] <dgroos> so what does: ping: icmp open socket: Operation not permitted, mean?
[22:37] <GJ> Your guess is as good as mine!
[22:37] <Ahmuck> it means icmp is closed
[22:39] <dgroos> Hi Ahmuck
[22:39] <GJ> Did you try removing /opt and /var/lib/tftpboot/ltsp and rebuilding your chroot?
[22:40] <GJ> Or is that working for existing clients and only the ones you just added are having problems?
[22:41] <dgroos> Well, true.  for the client that had been signed on, things were working just fine.  The problem occured for a client trying to log on.
[22:42] <dgroos> I haven't done this yet, I've got a lot of customization in the chroot...
[22:44] <GJ> So let me get this straight. Existing client machines can connect and students can log on, but the recently added client machines have the Connection Refused error?
[22:45] <dgroos> No.  what I meant is that, I was logged in to a thin client and was using it all afternoon, but found out that if one tried to sit at another TC and reboot, it wouldn't work.
[22:47] <GJ> So you have no idea where a machine with an ip address of 192.168.0.77 is located?
[22:47] <dgroos> ... it couldn't boot, but if it had already loaded in image it could continue to work.
[22:47] <GJ> Clearly.
[22:47] <dgroos> No...
[22:47] <dgroos> right.
[22:49] <GJ> And clearly that rootserver ip address is the culprit. Find the rogue DHCP server on your network!
[22:50] <dgroos> Right.  Now would that be inside the internal LAN, my thin client LAN or would it be outside of it on the building?
[22:51] <dgroos> *building side of the LAN?
[22:52] <dgroos> Think I might have found it!
[22:54] <GJ> Did you "sudo ltsp-update-sshkeys" to make sure the server and clients machines are on the same page, so to speak?
[22:55] <jbicha> does anyone know what the "unattended operation" checkbox does when setting up Moodle?
[22:56] <dgroos> :D  You were right!  "Find the rogue DHCP server on your network" The teacher next door had plugged in an old windows computer to our ltsp LAN and it was doing just that--conflicting.
[22:56] <dgroos> We unplugged that computer and things worked again :)
[22:57] <GJ> Great!
[22:57] <dgroos> Thanks for your help in tracking this down!!!
[22:57] <GJ> You're welcome!
[23:00] <GJ> Now here's a question that should be easy for someone to answer for me...
[23:00] <dgroos> Now I can return to my many hours of trying to debug my plone installation...  you never know when you will hit upon a solution... just gotta keep trudging on...
[23:03] <GJ> I just used the Edubuntu 9.04 addon cd to install some classroom software. When I tried to add the software it went to Internet for the software rather than the cd. Now that's a problem when you're operating over a satellite connection with a limit on the amount of downstream total in a 24 hour period. Why didn't add/remove just use the cd?
[23:05] <dgroos> I'll try--not sure why it did it, but I think you could go to sources and make sure that CD is checked, and maybe that the other ones are unchecked.  Should limit choices of updating to the CD.
[23:06] <GJ> I'll check that. But you would think that would be the default behavior when you pop a cd into the server and select "start addon installer"
[23:07] <dgroos> I'd think so.  Where are you working out of?
[23:07] <GJ> especially when they call the cd the Edubuntu addon cd!
[23:08] <dgroos> There's some interesting history there, though not sure of the details.
[23:08] <GJ> ?
[23:09] <dgroos> Where are you that you have a satellite connection?
[23:09] <GJ> Apache Indian reservation in Arizona
[23:09] <dgroos> cool.
[23:09] <GJ> DSL is too slow here and no cable at all
[23:10] <dgroos> I find it quite interesting to see where people are working/where they are at.
[23:10] <GJ> satellite and t1 are the only choices
[23:11] <GJ> t1 is way too expensive.
[23:11] <dgroos> Indeed.
[23:11] <GJ> This satellite connection is costing us more than $200 a month as it is.
[23:11] <GJ> But we have to have the bandwidth
[23:12] <dgroos> ouch!
[23:13] <dgroos> I see the need for the CD approach.  I just checked: System/Administration/Software Sources
[23:15] <dgroos> and under the first pane it shows the first 4 boxes checked (downloadable from the internet) and then the 2 boxes in the section, "Installable from CD-ROM/DVD" are unchecked.  Reversing that checking might work.
[23:17] <GJ> And under the Third-Party Software tab only the Edubuntu cd is checked but it doesn't mention "addon" there at all
[23:19] <dgroos> I think Edubuntu CD and addon are one and the same for Jaunty.
[23:25] <GJ> Apparently. Right now I'm trying to sort through the stuff on the CD to see what might be usable here at our K-8 school.
[23:25] <GJ> I'll just have to make sure any more installs do NOT access the internet.
[23:26] <dgroos> I think you'll get some good opinions if you ask that question on the edubuntu-users list server though it has been asked in various ways a few times so you may want to access the archives.  Best of luck!
[23:27] <dgroos> heading home, have a good evening GJ
[23:30] <GJ> G'bye