[10:21] <AnAnt> Hello, I have a question regarding the latest change in gdm (setting the default theme using an XML file), will this step help to ease branding ?
[10:21] <AnAnt> another thing, isn't it possible to change sound theme for GDM ?
[10:22] <AnAnt> I noticed that /desktop/gnome/sound/theme_name key doesn't work
[10:25] <Brucevdk> Hi mac_v, I installed the Karmic beta yesterday and for the first time figured out that the gconf key menu_have_icons was set to false -- I think your comment "why isnt it a guideline yet and why are these icon changes being made on proposals made by a few? [...] This now seems like a haphazard move , and changes made only on realizing the bugs it causes!" is spot on
[10:25] <Brucevdk> I'm seriously baffled by the choice to go forward with this change without first discussing a guideline and then creating a set of GnomeGoals
[10:26] <Brucevdk> What are you gusy going to do with the Karmic release, change the default back to True?
[10:30] <mac_v> Brucevdk: AFAIK , it was folks from Ubuntu who have pushed for this move ;)  ... so i dont expect the change in default. you could comment on the bug though
[10:31] <Brucevdk> mac_v: I don't understand this move at all and I will most likely be advocating against it, but I'm building a case first
[10:32] <Brucevdk> mac_v: who specifically from the Ubuntu team has been advocating for this move?
[10:33] <mac_v> Brucevdk: i dont agree with the move either. *the* most awkward issue is the panel system and admin menu item , which dont have the icons while the rest of the panel has icons... Humanity is getting bugs because of this! :/  users think that the humanity icon theme doesnt not have the icon and hence not displayed
[10:34] <mac_v> Brucevdk: the folks advocating are mentioned in the initial comments ;)
[10:35] <Brucevdk> mac_v: well it's really suprising people are filing bugs for which really is quite a radical change all of a sudden, users have most definitely trained themselves to focus on the icons and not the words or context/position -- Matthew Paul Thomas states "I think if you tested separate sets of people who had never used Gnome before, overall they would find menu items more quickly without icons than with them. " -- but that's an assumption, nobody
[10:35] <Brucevdk> actually did any usability tests
[10:35] <Brucevdk> uhm I meant "not really surprising"
[10:35] <mac_v> Brucevdk: nope , no tests have been done
[10:36] <Brucevdk> mac_v: and because there isn't a guideline, do you know if this applies to context menus? Because the menu_have_icons certainly removes icons from context menus too, not just application menus
[10:36] <mac_v>  menu_have_icons also controls the context menu
[10:37] <Brucevdk> to be honest, I think it's just somebody's crusade against icons gone one step too far (William Jon McCann?)
[10:39] <mac_v> lol , mccann does a lot of things , but i'm not sure if he was among the advocates
[10:39] <Brucevdk> mac_v: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=557469 <-- he's the reporter
[10:39] <ubottu> Gnome bug 557469 in general "set menus_have_icons=false by default" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]
[10:40] <mac_v> Brucevdk: ah! yes.. forgot about the bgo bug!... i tried arguing against this bug and gave up a long time ago :(
[10:41] <Brucevdk> that's a shame
[10:42] <AnAnt> am I asking in the correct channel ?
[10:43] <Brucevdk> I'm going to work out my case, mac_v do you mind if I ask you some questions about this as I go along?
[10:43] <Brucevdk> AnAnt: what are you asking?
[10:43] <AnAnt> about GDM
[10:43] <Brucevdk> AnAnt: I wasn't here when you asked anything, so you'll have to be a bit clearer
[10:43] <AnAnt> regarding the latest change in gdm (setting the default theme using an XML file), will this help to ease branding ?
[10:43] <mac_v> Brucevdk: shoot
[10:44] <AnAnt> another thing, isn't it possible to change sound theme for GDM ? I noticed that /desktop/gnome/sound/theme_name key doesn't work
[10:46] <mac_v> AnAnt: i dont think it works correctly now ... regarding gdm  , the best folks are pitti/ seb128 / kwwii ... workdays would be better to catch them :)
[10:46] <AnAnt> ok
[11:05] <Brucevdk> mac_v: do you happen to have the links to the Humanity bug reports laying around?
[11:05] <mac_v> Brucevdk: i have duped them to the libgnome bug
[11:06] <Brucevdk> mac_v: link?
[11:06] <mac_v> i think there are atleast 2 from humanity
[11:06] <mac_v> Bug #452513
[11:06] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 452513 in humanity-icon-theme "Incomplete default icon package ( Karmic ) (dup-of: 407621)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/452513
[11:06] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 407621 in libgnome "(design decision) Icons missing from context menu , dialogue buttons , firefox bookmark favicons, system menu" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/407621
[11:07] <Brucevdk> mac_v: thanks
[11:07] <mac_v> Brucevdk: Bug #440320
[11:07] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 440320 in humanity-icon-theme "menu items are [still] missing icons (dup-of: 407621)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/440320
[11:07] <mac_v> np
[11:15] <Brucevdk> mac_v: earlier you stated that one shouldn't expect the default to be changed back, but reallly, why not? It seems even people advocating for change with regards to the application menu do not agree with just setting this configuration value and doing nothing else
[11:16] <mac_v> Brucevdk: i'm not sure which/who's comment you are refering to?
[11:16] <Brucevdk> [11:30:57] <mac_v> Brucevdk: AFAIK , it was folks from Ubuntu who have pushed for this move ;)  ... so i dont expect the change in default. you could comment on the bug though
[11:17] <mac_v> Brucevdk: i mean *who* does not agree?
[11:17] <mac_v> "people advocating"
[11:17] <Brucevdk> mac_v: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=557469#c14 -- Matthew Paul Thomas
[11:18] <ubottu> Gnome bug 557469 in general "set menus_have_icons=false by default" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]
[11:18] <mac_v> Brucevdk: i have quoted that comment in the lp report , see mpt's reply :)
[11:18] <mac_v> in launchpad
[11:18]  * Brucevdk looks
[11:32] <Brucevdk> mac_v: alright, but to me that brings up two things: 1) Are people currently really going around patching apps? and 2) People are working with a guideline that hasn't yet been formalized
[11:34] <Brucevdk> for a project I maintain we will either tell users to set the flag back to True
[11:34] <mac_v> Brucevdk: 1-not many apps are patched because users just turn back the option. 2- https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=588668
[11:34] <ubottu> Gnome bug 588668 in General "Guideline on appropriate usage of icons in menu" [Normal,Unconfirmed]
[11:35] <Brucevdk> mac_v: exactly, this has "epic fail" written all over it
[11:35] <Brucevdk> the argument "see how people like it after a few weeks" is so full of holes, because people will Google and switch the config variable back -- plus there's no infrastructure to see if users eventually like the change
[11:36] <Brucevdk> and in the process, because you've not clearly communicated the change, you will piss of both users and developers
[11:36] <mac_v> Brucevdk: are you subscribed to the desktop / devel Mailing list?
[11:37] <Brucevdk> mac_v: no
[11:37] <Brucevdk> neither Ubuntu's nor Gnome's btw
[11:37] <Brucevdk> btw with "you've" I didn't mean _you_
[11:38] <mac_v> Brucevdk: there you go , i sent a mail regarding the change to the ubuntu mailing lists , most of the devs know about this , not all agree with this hence they dont want to fix it ;)
[11:38] <mac_v> Brucevdk: yeah  , i got that 'you'  didnt mean me :)
[11:38] <Brucevdk> :-)
[11:39] <Brucevdk> mac_v: well, the way I'd proceed is by setting always-show-icons flag for every icon in my application to True
[11:39] <Brucevdk> which is actually what I'm going to do right now
[11:39] <Brucevdk> gotta head off those bug reports
[11:39] <mac_v> Brucevdk: exactly! , that is what i would say would be the best way  :)
[11:40] <mac_v> then all icons will be shown
[11:40] <mac_v> Brucevdk: and the gnome guys will again keep scratching their heads how to prevent this ;p
[11:41] <Brucevdk> mac_v: we can only hope that the ability to add icons to menuitems won't be removed from GTK (that was actually mentioned in the report)
[11:42] <mac_v> Brucevdk: the good thing is not all agree with this change so it would be a bit tough to "remove" the option
[12:40] <Brucevdk> mac_v: does mpt show up here from time to time?
[12:42] <mac_v> Brucevdk: on workdays
[12:42] <Brucevdk> alright
[12:43] <Brucevdk> mac_v: I was talking with andreasn in #gnome-hacker and he states they've actually done some usability research with test subjects on the matter of the menu item icons
[12:43] <mac_v> andreasn: really ?  ;p
[12:45] <andreasn> not on that specifically, but I asked mpt if he had observed that the lack of icons in the shutdown menu made it harder to use in his UI tests
[12:45] <andreasn> but he had not seen any indications on that
[12:46] <mac_v> andreasn: actually ubuntu hasnt done any tests specifically for this...
[12:46] <mac_v> to do a test there needs to be a control and a test
[12:46] <andreasn> mac_v, ok
[12:47] <mac_v> nothing of the sort was done and it probably was mpt's observations that users dont seem to matter
[12:47] <mac_v> *users dont seem to care for the icons
[12:48] <andreasn> right
[12:50] <mac_v> Brucevdk: andreasn: for a new user running these tests is just an examiner's bias , since the new user will always read before using the option , so this does not affect new users much but to the regular user this is a draw back.
[12:50] <Brucevdk> mac_v: agreed
[12:53] <andreasn> my main motivation for the change was that I think it results in a more clean looking (as opposed to cute) appearance
[12:54] <andreasn> but I respect if others don't like the change
[12:54] <mac_v> andreasn: i agree that there needs to be a clean up of sorts , but not a complete removal of icons , ..... arrangement the options with icons /options with radio buttons/ those without icons
[12:55] <mac_v> arrange*
[12:55] <mac_v> some icons help
[12:55] <Brucevdk> wouldn't it have been better to keep the default as it was and proceed by creating a guideline and then setting a GnomeGoal?
[12:56] <mac_v> keep the really good icons and and see which dont convey a quick meaning and remove those
[12:56] <mac_v> Brucevdk: +1
[12:57] <Brucevdk> In the end I don't think the discussion should be about icons so much as it should be about whether or not the application menu is really useful
[12:57] <Brucevdk> I thought Michael Monreal made a good point about the use of application menus in general "In all those years I think I have used exactly *two* menu items in evolution: Preferences and the Filter manager." (https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=557469#c9)
[12:57] <ubottu> Gnome bug 557469 in general "set menus_have_icons=false by default" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]
[12:58] <mac_v> andreasn: as long as there is an option to revert to displaying the icons , i'm happy :)  gnome3 will also carry the gconf option right?
[13:00] <andreasn> mac_v, as far as I know
[13:00] <mac_v> \o/
[13:01] <mac_v> Brucevdk: yeah , i recently migrated from thunderbird to evolution and all the options in the drop down really make me dizzy :/
[13:02] <andreasn> indeed, evo have a lot of odd things in the menus, so does thunderbird :)
[13:03] <mac_v> i really dont understand the point of "Hide deleted messages" option!
[13:03] <andreasn> lots of things that are there for historical reasons etc.
[13:04] <andreasn> mac_v, could it be some pop-thing perhaps?
[13:06] <mac_v> not sure , but even so , why is the deleted message displayed in the folder and again in the trash! , it could have just been > delete moves the message to trash , and no need for that option ;)
[13:06]  * mac_v prefers POP3 more than IMAP :)
[13:07] <andreasn> cleaning up Evo's menus would be nice, but I really don't want to fight that fight. This menu-icon-discussion have been tiring enough
[13:07] <mac_v> lol
[13:07] <andreasn> in general it seems that adding things are easy, removing things is, well, slightly harder
[13:25] <mac_v> andreasn: http://library.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/2.28/ , shows all images with the icons=true ;) this is a bit misleading
[13:25] <andreasn> oh, crap :/
[13:26] <andreasn> mac_v, I've noticed that you have used monocrome icons in the notification area, do you think there are other parts of the system where we could make use of monocrome icons as well?
[13:30] <mac_v> andreasn: hmm , havent given it much thought , but the notify-osd icons are also greyscale ... off the top of my head , i could say the clock[not an icon per-se] in the drop down could be monochrome...
[13:31] <andreasn> yeah, that could look good
[13:33] <andreasn> what do you think about the -symbolic part that mpt suggested (somewhere that I can't remember)
[13:34] <mac_v> ah , it was in an lp bug report..
[13:35] <andreasn> I wonder if it would be a good thing to try to push for the next 6 months
[13:35] <mac_v> andreasn: did you mean this > https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/software-store/+bug/433858/comments/3
[13:35] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 433858 in software-center "Use stock arrow icon" [Low,Confirmed]
[13:36] <andreasn> yes
[13:37] <andreasn> jon mccann said he might be able to code it
[13:37] <andreasn> but only maybe, do you know someone who could do it?
[13:40] <mac_v> andreasn: i didnt understand how it is supposed to work... is it the icon is created in a specific color , but the code checks the panel color and adjusts the color of the icon accordingly ?
[13:41] <mac_v> or the proposed idea
[13:43] <andreasn> if I understood it correctly, some code in the panel would say "draw these in this color"
[13:43] <andreasn> and that could be, say, the text color
[13:43] <mac_v> andreasn: interesting idea , it would be awesome
[13:44] <mac_v> damn! if that had existed , i wouldnt have had to do two icon colors! for humanity :/
[13:45] <andreasn> yeah
[14:01] <mac_v> andreasn: other locations where monochrome icons could be used are the arrows in apps as mpt mentions[though the monochrome arrow in the software center would not seem ideal choice,IMO ] , also the check-marks some apps use to say working correctly or correct entry... and we could use the red '!' or 'x' for wrong entry.. or the search icon in the text entry ... any icon where the user cant interact
[14:04] <mac_v> we could create a guideline , > if it is not a button or an option which user can select, icon used must be the -symbolic icon
[14:05] <mac_v> so for the text entry the search icon can be monochrome and the clear icon being color would indicate the interaction available in the color icon
[14:05] <mac_v> while the search icon is just a placeholder
[14:07] <andreasn> that could work, good ideas
[14:12] <mac_v> andreasn: like the sound preferences , that uses icons volume-low and volume-high, but the icons are not interactive , while the area in-between them [slider] allows interaction ... so these icons could just be -symbolic icons
[14:14] <mac_v> that would take the attention out of the icons and force the user's the attention more on the slider
[14:14] <andreasn> indeed
[16:26] <mac_v> dobey: kwwii: something for the xdg naming specs ;) > https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/software-store/+bug/433858/comments/3
[16:26] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 433858 in software-center "Use stock arrow icon" [Low,Confirmed]
[18:25] <dobey> mac_v: ugh
[18:33] <mac_v> dobey: lol.. ;p
[18:37] <mac_v> dobey: you dont like the idea?
[18:39] <dobey> mac_v: indeed i don't
[18:40] <mac_v> ;)
=== johanbr_ is now known as johanbr
=== asac_ is now known as asac
=== tkamppeter_ is now known as tkamppeter
[20:23] <dobey> blogging is hard
[23:45] <kklimonda> Hmm.. I'd like to get bug 444005 uploaded as an update before release, any sponsors? This upload fixes two crashes, a potential data loss and a minor configuration issue for universe package (transmission-daemon)
[23:45] <ubottu> Launchpad bug 444005 in transmission "Updates for Transmission 1.75" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/444005
[23:47] <chrisccoulson> kklimonda - you might have more luck in the morning when there are some more people around ;)
[23:47] <kklimonda> I know, but I'm not sure whenever I'll be here tomorrow in the morning :)