[00:05] <doctormo> Vantrax: Thanks :-)
[00:06] <Vantrax> if you need any help, let me know
[00:08] <pleia2> swoody: looks good so far, cprofitt is working on this too so I'll make sure he has a look
[00:08]  * pleia2 is at a lug meeting for the night, again
[00:08] <swoody> pleia2, thanks :)
[00:08] <swoody> I'm thinking I could take out some of the details though, as they seem to be things that would be covered by a topic, and not have to be a sub-topic of it's own
[00:11] <doctormo> Vantrax: Will do, hopefully something can be helped out with that group
[03:43] <Saj0577> morning al
[03:49] <Saj0577> pleia2: you looking for me earlier?
[03:49] <pleia2> Saj0577: yeah, was just letting you know I was putting together that tx email
[03:49] <pleia2> but you know that now :)
[03:49] <Saj0577> argh right no problem :) been asleep was not feeling to grand
[03:52]  * Saj0577 wishes he could write emails like that lol
[03:54] <Saj0577> you read the replies and respondeding or am I free to go ahead and reply expalianing about the state exception for countries
[03:55] <cprofitt> doctormo, can you walk like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqhlQfXUk7w
[03:55] <cprofitt> I know you have the hat... but not sure about the walk
[03:55] <cprofitt> that is one of my favorite comedy bits
[03:56] <doctormo> cprofitt: Well yes, but my legs are not quite as gangly as John cleezes
[03:56]  * cprofitt smiles
[03:56] <swoody> hello cprofitt :)
[03:57] <cprofitt> hey Swoody
[03:57] <swoody> cprofitt, when you get a chance, could you take a glance at the 'Using Ubuntu' page?
[03:57] <Saj0577> hey swoody what you doing in here hehe
[03:57] <swoody> I 'tweaked' it a bit :)
[03:57] <cprofitt> sure
[03:57] <swoody> cprofitt, wanted to get your input :)
[03:57] <swoody> Saj0577, I'm everywhere...
[03:58]  * swoody disapears into a cloud of smoke...
[03:58] <Saj0577> I know!!!
[03:59] <cprofitt> swoody -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/UbuntuDesktopTopics
[03:59] <cprofitt> that page or the Moodle server?
[04:00] <cprofitt> I like the additions to the wiki
[04:00] <swoody> cprofitt, yeah, that page :)
[04:00] <cprofitt> though were there Ubuntu wiki articles on the items you linked to freeos?
[04:01] <swoody> not sure, I usually just put up whatever looked best / most complete
[04:01] <swoody> will look into it though :)
[04:01] <cprofitt> I would want to make sure that we used the Ubuntu wiki vs. outside sources
[04:01] <cprofitt> perhaps updating the Ubuntu wiki would be in order if the outside material is not solid...
[04:01] <cprofitt> though using outside material is not a 'bad' thing
[04:02] <swoody> cprofitt, sounds good :)
[04:02] <swoody> I'll be sure to reference the wiki first then :)
[04:02] <swoody> and I'll check into the ones that I already posted
[04:02] <cprofitt> Cool... thanks swoody - very good work
[04:02] <swoody> thank you :)
[04:03] <pleia2> hooray swoody
[04:03] <swoody> haha, thanks pleia2 :)
[04:03] <swoody> so do you two think I should cut out some of the 'details' on the wiki?
[04:03] <swoody> Like I had mentioned, I think some of the things I listed on there don't need to be sub-listed as they would more than likely be covered by the topic
[04:04] <cprofitt> swoody, true
[04:04] <swoody> namely the 'devices' section
[04:04] <cprofitt> some of the items you listed might fall under 'maintenance' as well
[04:04] <swoody> but there some others tossed in there, too
[04:04] <cprofitt> you would have to ask pleia2 and doctormo
[04:05] <swoody> true, I just re-organized what was there, I really tried not to add/remove much
[04:05] <swoody> but overlap will have to be looked into as well :)
[04:05] <pleia2> yeah, we haven't quite sorted out how we're going to make sure all the sections with overlap are dealt with
[04:05] <pleia2> aside from keeping it in our heads
[04:06] <cprofitt> swoody, yes... we have to try to avoid duplication
[04:07] <doctormo> swoody: What aspects of the file system need to be taught for desktop?
[04:08] <swoody> doctormo, not sure, it was there. I just organized it :)
[04:08] <swoody> possibly just the basics?
[04:09] <swoody> your /home and ~/multimedia directories?
[04:09] <doctormo> swoody: OK, I'm thinking FS, CLI and so on are sharable base lessons for maintence and systems administration, though not desktop.
[04:10] <doctormo> swoody: You mean XDG directories? I'd keep it to just teaching places and nautilus.
[04:10] <cprofitt> I would say your /etc too
[04:10] <cprofitt> and probably /dev
[04:10] <doctormo> include pluging in devices and mounting an ftp server and your onto a winner
[04:10] <doctormo> cprofitt: For the desktop?
[04:10] <cprofitt> I would also think /media
[04:10] <swoody> cprofitt, nah, I don't think so
[04:11] <swoody> cprofitt, those may be above the needs of a desktop user
[04:11] <cprofitt> I have not run server yet...
[04:11] <cprofitt> and I have used all of those
[04:11] <cprofitt> not sure you need to go in to great depth... but I think at least knowing about them can help
[04:12] <swoody> So is the Admin courses directed more towards server use?
[04:12] <cprofitt> that is the issue...
[04:12] <swoody> and FYI, I haven't really used /media /dev or /etc :)
[04:12] <cprofitt> I think we should make the course -- Desktop and Server
[04:12] <cprofitt> or Using and Maintenance
[04:13] <cprofitt> swoody, you ever played with your xorg.conf file?
[04:13] <cprofitt> or checked your /media file to see what items are mounted?
[04:13] <swoody> surprisingly not really :)
[04:13] <cprofitt> or use /dev to see what tty you need to use to use minicom?
[04:13] <swoody> haha, I'm a pretty basic user ;)
[04:14] <swoody> internet, music, one USB thumb drive every 6 months...
[04:14] <swoody> IRC, and that's about it :)
[04:14] <cprofitt> so perhaps we need a 'basic' desktop course and an 'advanced' desktop course
[04:15] <swoody> that could be useful :)
[04:15] <cprofitt> I think the confusion is that the 'areas' are Using and Maintenance... but server is only under maintenance and desktop just under using
[04:15] <swoody> very intro for the soccer moms who want to check their email and blogs...
[04:15] <doctormo> cprofitt: both of which were in the plan I sent when we were talking about this in the mailing list.
[04:15] <cprofitt> when there is maintenance on the desktop side and using on the server side
[04:15] <doctormo> cprofitt: Nah, desktop is under maint too, just hasn't been fleshed out.
[04:16] <cprofitt> is server under using then too?
[04:16] <doctormo> And the using on the server side is not infrastructural, setting things up on a server is maint, using a server isn't using a server if you know what I mean.
[04:16] <cprofitt> doctormo, hmm...
[04:16] <cprofitt> not sure I follow you.
[04:16] <doctormo> Because clients use servers, people dont
[04:17] <cprofitt> so LDAP on a server would just be in the setup...
[04:17] <cprofitt> and maintaining LDAP via a client would be covered under which area?
[04:18] <pleia2> server
[04:18] <pleia2> desktop users will never be maintaining ldap
[04:18] <doctormo> cprofitt: Desktop maint for client on LDAP, setting up LDAP on server would be server maint.
[04:18] <cprofitt> Under System Administration and Maintenance?
[04:18] <doctormo> But they'd have to be bound
[04:18] <cprofitt> and both of those under sys admin and maintenance right?
[04:19] <doctormo> Well we're talking about sections here
[04:19] <cprofitt> yes, the five buttons on our wiki
[04:19] <doctormo> The classes will be more direct as far as learnign objectives. But devel sections aren't always going to relate.
[04:20] <cprofitt> I figured...
[04:21] <doctormo> So we may not have to duplicate under two sections
[04:21] <cprofitt> but LDAP both client and server will be under the How To Maintain 'area' on our wiki?
[04:21] <doctormo> yes
[04:21] <cprofitt> k
[04:22] <doctormo> Most of what we know here in the technical world is maint, because use seems so obvious.
[04:22] <cprofitt> where would things like teaching some basic command line be?
[04:23] <pleia2> I'd say server, maybe an option addon to desktop course
[04:23] <pleia2> we don't want to scare people off from desktop use, command line is scary
[04:23] <cprofitt> why do we keep saying server...
[04:23] <pleia2> sorry
[04:23] <pleia2> whatever we're calling it, maintenance?
[04:23] <pleia2> sysadmin?
[04:23] <cprofitt> I think that is what is throwing me
[04:23] <doctormo> cprofitt: Well technically cli is use, and it's a base class for most sys admin maint. So it's possible to do basic cli in use, but I'd put it in maint as it's not really used for only use as much for the people we want to teach.
[04:23] <cprofitt> there is a Sys Admin and Maintenance
[04:24] <cprofitt> and Desktop and Application area on our wiki
[04:24] <pleia2> cprofitt: sorry, i've just shortended it to desktop and server like we did on the wiki
[04:24] <doctormo> Yea, sysadmin is a subtopic of maint.
[04:25] <cprofitt> pleia2, but the wiki has not been shortened to server... unless I am missing that part...
[04:25] <cprofitt> and I might have missed it
[04:25] <pleia2> ah
[04:25] <pleia2> well nevermind then, I am too sleepy to watch my terms so carefully so I think I'll just let you guys do this :)
[04:26] <pleia2> s/carefully/carefully examined
[04:26] <cprofitt> I look at the CLI as necessary for desktop -- at least a little under a troubleshooting course.
[04:26]  * pleia2 seeks pillows and things
[04:26] <cprofitt> pleia2, -- no issue... but I was just trying to keep the areas sep.
[04:26] <cprofitt> so the CLI item would be under sysadmin/maintenance but considered a desktop level (at basic CLI)
[04:27] <doctormo> cprofitt: But trouble shooting is desktop maint.
[04:27] <cprofitt> and a more advanced CLI would be sysadmin/maintenance but a server related course?
[04:27] <doctormo> yes
[04:27] <cprofitt> right doctormo and parts of desktop will fall under sys admin / maint
[04:27] <cprofitt> I understand where you are coming from now with 'use'
[04:27] <cprofitt> You mean use as in 'end' user use only
[04:28] <cprofitt> that helps me 'grasp' how we are dividing stuff up
[04:29] <cprofitt> with that said... File Permissions is a grey area swoody
[04:29] <swoody> haha
[04:30] <cprofitt> all of the command line stuff on the page you linked should be moved to the other page
[04:30] <swoody> well like I said, in my defense, I'm not creator or destoyer, I just organized it :)
[04:30] <swoody> ok, will do :)
[04:30] <cprofitt> the installing applications should be moved as well..
[04:31] <cprofitt> that is not really using, but maintenance
[04:31] <doctormo> sorry about that
[04:31] <doctormo> computer crashed
[04:31] <swoody> sounds good
[04:31] <cprofitt> I would say File System can stay in a light version... Intro to Command line and Installing Apps moved to maintenance
[04:31] <doctormo> cprofitt: Last thing you said was [Thu Oct 22 2009] [23:26:28] <cprofitt> pleia2, -- no issue... but I was just trying to keep the areas sep.
[04:31] <swoody> do you guys want the 'Desktop usage' to only include apps that come pre-installed with Ubuntu?
[04:32] <doctormo> No wait, that's just the last thing in my log, I know you said thigns after that.
[04:33] <doctormo> swoody: Well, the desktop use should first contain gnome desktop, then gnome panels (like nautilus) then further out to default apps, last priority to other apps.
[04:33] <doctormo> I'd make an exception for inkscape
[04:33] <swoody> that's what I figured :)
[04:33] <swoody> but default for Jaunty, or Karmic?
[04:33] <cprofitt> I think Apps, even if not default, can be using
[04:33] <cprofitt> but installing apps = maintenance
[04:34] <cprofitt> I do not think we need to make a distinction between default and not default
[04:34] <cprofitt> TuxRacer is not going to be maintenance
[04:34] <doctormo> So sysadmin != maint, maint is the super topic and sysadmin will just be a set of classes/courses that emerge I think from those topics.
[04:34] <swoody> cprofitt, could be if you want it to be ;)
[04:34] <doctormo> But also in maint (and not sysadmin) is the desktop maint.
[04:35] <cprofitt> doctormo, I am just going by the buttons you have...
[04:35] <doctormo> The buttons may need rewording, I know I need to reword the community area.
[04:36]  * cprofitt nods
[04:36] <cprofitt> using and maintenance areas make it 'cleaner' I think
[04:37] <cprofitt> could just be my odd mind though
[04:38] <doctormo> OK so I think changing "Systems Administration and Maintenance" to "Desktop Maintenance and Server Administration"
[04:38] <doctormo> cprofitt: your thoughts?
[04:39] <doctormo> Og course that does leave client administration as a hanging by line of server admin, hmm.
[04:40] <cprofitt> I would just make it Maintenance and Using
[04:40] <cprofitt> the desktop vs. server vs. sys admin is a course organization thing, not a topic organization thing
[04:42] <Saj0577> Maintenace and Usage   :)
[04:42] <cprofitt> that works Saj0577
[04:43] <cprofitt> doctormo, does that work for you?
[04:44] <doctormo> cprofitt: Sure, so are you saying I should remove the sub-text to the buttons?
[04:44] <cprofitt> or change it...
[04:45] <cprofitt> maintenance / sysadmin is still valid I think.
[04:45] <cprofitt> the How should just not be limited to desktop
[04:48] <cprofitt> systems administration could be removed... too...
[04:48] <cprofitt> I think that would probably make it less confusing
[04:48] <doctormo> cprofitt: The word How?
[04:49] <cprofitt> its almost like sys admin should have it own button... and programming / community development could be broken apart too...
[04:49] <doctormo> Just "Maintain Ubuntu" or "Ubuntu Maintenance"
[04:49] <cprofitt> either works...
[04:49] <cprofitt> if you have Use Ubuntu -- then Maintain
[04:49] <cprofitt> if you have Using Ubuntu then Maintaining
[04:49]  * cprofitt smiles
[04:49] <cprofitt> sound good?
[04:50] <doctormo> cprofitt: Lets not go wild just yet, I'd rather see problem organising on those wiki pages before I create more topics, otherwise we'll get a little bit of choice paralasys.
[04:50] <doctormo> So splitting up to be decided later on?
[04:50] <cprofitt> that is fine.
[04:50] <doctormo> The wording I agree on though :-) sounds good
[04:51] <doctormo> Damn IRC and it's async chat.
[04:56] <doctormo> I think I'll get off to bed, trying to sleep properly again
[04:57] <swoody> Just FYI, I've been trying to get things setup with some new people for Folding Jam, so I'll read all the logs to catch up :)
[05:02] <cprofitt> k swoody
[18:35] <swoody> good morning everyone :)
[18:37] <doctormo> hello swoody
[18:40] <swoody> how's life treating you today, doctormo ?