[20:57] <starcraftman> folks Beginners team wiki FG meeting in a few minutes.
[21:01] <lukjad007> Hi
[21:02] <PabloRubianes> hello
[21:02] <jjesse> hello
[21:03] <Rocket2DMn> yo
[21:03] <duanedesign> better, not so many people in #ubuntu-docs
[21:03] <duanedesign> :p
[21:03] <starcraftman> Hey guys, hmmm, maybe wait a few more minutes for any late comers. I shall much on some fresh oatmeal cookies meanwhile.
[21:04] <jjesse> ah i always get confused on the difference between #kde-docs and #ubuntu-doc :)
[21:04] <Rocket2DMn> lol yeah
[21:05] <drs305> I only came for the cake!
[21:05] <jjesse> theres cake?
[21:05] <starcraftman> drs305: what? Who said anything about cake?
[21:05] <duanedesign> Kashi makes a good oatmeal raisin cookie
[21:05] <drs305> starcraftman: You did, yesterday. Check the logs!
[21:05] <Rocket2DMn> i heard there would be an open bar
[21:05] <duanedesign> \o/
[21:06]  * drs305 Admits it might have been only virtual cake ...
[21:06] <starcraftman> drs305: Oh right. Lemme just go fetch it.
[21:06] <PabloRubianes> drs305: any cake is good!
[21:06] <Rocket2DMn> ok starcraftman , let's do this
[21:07] <Rocket2DMn> want me to begin starcraftman ?
[21:07] <starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: Sure thing. Your up first on agenda. We go by list.
[21:07] <Rocket2DMn> Ok guys, so we finished the Summer of Documentation a few weeks ago, you can see the results here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Wiki/SoD2009
[21:08] <Rocket2DMn> Thank you all for your efforts and excellent work!
[21:08] <starcraftman> hear hear, was a good productive effort :).
[21:08] <Rocket2DMn> of course, that doesn't mean that we stop doing work, which leads to the next agenda item: Fall/Winter Activities
[21:09] <Rocket2DMn> As of right now there is nothing we have organized, but wiki work will continue, and anybody interested in system documentation can talk to me or any doc-team member for that matter
[21:09] <Rocket2DMn> Karmic is due out in a few days, so the Wiki will have a bunch of stuff that needs to be updated
[21:10] <Rocket2DMn> if you have any pages that you "maintain", have a look at them soon once you have Karmic up and running and see if anything needs to be changed
[21:10] <lukjad007> o/
[21:10] <Rocket2DMn> go for it lukjad007
[21:10] <lukjad007> If we are not immediately upgrading to karmic, what should we do in the meantime?
[21:11] <starcraftman> lukjad007: virtualbox? Clean up tags? Orphan pages? Lots of things :)
[21:11] <Rocket2DMn> well lukjad007 , nobody owns wiki pages, you don't have ultimate responsibility for them since it's a community effort
[21:11] <Rocket2DMn> You can install in a VM, or ask somebody to review the page for you to see if anythin actually has changed
[21:11] <lukjad007> starcraftman Good points, just asking for suggestions.
[21:12] <Rocket2DMn> otherwise, just wait and have a look after you do upgrade, in that time, perhaps somebody else will step forward and update the page
[21:12] <drs305> o/
[21:12] <Rocket2DMn> oterhwise, yes, there are other tasks :)
[21:12] <Rocket2DMn> go ahead drs305
[21:13] <drs305> Graphics w/ backgrounds still use LTS (Hardy)?
[21:13] <Rocket2DMn> drs305, if screenshots already exist on pages and are still applicable, then you can keep the old ones.  If things have changed, then new screenshots are needed
[21:14] <Rocket2DMn> that may require pages to be refactored to support older and newer versions
[21:14] <Rocket2DMn> if you are doing fresh screenshots, use the latest release
[21:14] <drs305> Ok, but I'm NOT using any with that yellow background!
[21:14] <drs305> Ok.
[21:15] <Rocket2DMn> haha, drs305 if the material is the same between Hardy and Karmic, you can use Hardy :)
[21:15] <drs305> ty
[21:15] <starcraftman> drs305: or just take screenshots limited to the window of the program, avoids background.
[21:15] <Rocket2DMn> I think the most important thing is that you use the default theme, the background image isn't as important
[21:15] <drs305> That's what I normally do starcraftman
[21:16] <starcraftman> drs305: roger, just noting.
[21:16] <Rocket2DMn> Any other questions?
[21:17] <Rocket2DMn> Ok, next agenda item is Other doc team activities
[21:17] <Rocket2DMn> I don't think anything out of the ordinary is going on
[21:17] <Rocket2DMn> You can always see Doc Team wiki tasks here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki/Tasks
[21:17] <duanedesign> we are still using https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Beginners/Development ?
[21:17] <Rocket2DMn> duanedesign, yeah, for internal usage.  At some point I need to put something together for the whole doc team to use, at mdke's request
[21:18] <Rocket2DMn> at that time we'll migrate
[21:18] <Rocket2DMn> System documentation also has tasks here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks
[21:18] <starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: Sounds good. Still gonna be a system based on the wiki though?
[21:18] <Rocket2DMn> so if anybody is interested in writing material from scratch, there are some options there
[21:19] <Rocket2DMn> starcraftman, yes
[21:19] <starcraftman> I'd just like to note, these links all listed under the Current Tasks section of the homepage :)
[21:19] <Rocket2DMn> starcraftman, in fact, it may be a good idea to just give a link to the doc team list so we don't duplicate material
[21:19] <lukjad007> afk, brb.
[21:20] <Rocket2DMn> it would help us integrate even better with the doc team
[21:20] <Rocket2DMn> If anybody has suggestions or ideas for tasks or improvements in any way, please don't hesitate to bring them forward to the doc team directly
[21:20] <starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: Sure thing. If ya need a hand on new track system, long as I'm around I'll try and help.
[21:21] <Rocket2DMn> any questions about tasks?
[21:21] <Rocket2DMn> sure thing starcraftman
[21:21] <duanedesign> what is this doc team list?
[21:22] <Rocket2DMn> duanedesign, the doc team mailing list is here - https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
[21:22] <starcraftman> duanedesign: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Wiki#Joining%20the%20Teams
[21:22] <Rocket2DMn> that is their primary form of communication since IRC isn't as popular as it is with the BT
[21:22] <starcraftman> Ah, rats, Rocket2DMn by 5 seconds.
[21:22] <duanedesign> oh ok the ,ailing list
[21:22] <duanedesign> *mailing
[21:23] <Rocket2DMn> Ok, well then my final announcement today is this: I am stepping down from the lead position in the Wiki FG and handing over leadership to starcraftman .  It's been a year and a half since we formed the FG, and I'd like to give somebody else a chance, as well as free up some time for myself
[21:24]  * starcraftman dons requisite crown ready to become a tyrant.
[21:24] <Rocket2DMn> A handful of Wiki FG members spoke a couple of weeks ago and everybody supported him for leadership
[21:24] <Rocket2DMn> I believe he is looking for a co-lead as well, that is further down on the agenda
[21:24] <drs305> All hail the RocketMan! Well done!
[21:24] <Rocket2DMn> I'll still be around of course :)
[21:25] <Rocket2DMn> thanks drs305 , i can't believe it's been as long as it has
[21:25]  * PabloRubianes claps!!
[21:25] <Rocket2DMn> thank you thank you, i accept donations via check or paypal
[21:25] <Rocket2DMn> ;)
[21:25] <starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: ya deserve the break, former boss. Take it easy and relax to some DT :)
[21:25] <duanedesign> I have been reADINg the doc team mailing list rather religiously lately interested in any doc team activities at UDS
[21:25] <drs305> Seriously.  Great job putting the team together and all the work you did.
[21:26] <Rocket2DMn> duanedesign, are you going to UDS?
[21:26] <drs305> Now The king is dead. Long live the king. All hail starcraftman
[21:26] <duanedesign> Rocket2DMn: That is the plan
[21:26] <duanedesign> :)
[21:26] <Rocket2DMn> duanedesign, very cool dude, there was an email thread about UDS which I think you saw.  Pics or it didn't happen!
[21:26] <starcraftman> drs305: You have a bright future. :)
[21:27] <drs305> It's NEVER too early to suck up.
[21:27] <Rocket2DMn> lol ok guys, let's keep moving so we don't drag this out
[21:27] <Rocket2DMn> Saj0577, are you here?
[21:28] <starcraftman> duanedesign: I wish I could go, they need to hold one near Montreal again.
[21:28] <starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: nope, I was told PabloRubianes filling in for edu.
[21:28] <PabloRubianes> Saj0577 won't be here... some problems with a friend... he was taking him to hospital...
[21:28] <duanedesign> I am lucky it is in Dallas 4 hours from me
[21:28] <starcraftman> duanedesign: rubbing it in eh? You going far, not so much...
[21:28] <Rocket2DMn> ok PabloRubianes , then the floor is yours, enlighten us as to what is happening with edu FG and it's effec ton the Wiki FG
[21:28] <duanedesign> I am working on a wiki page(s) for Launchpad. This is a project with me and Pablo right now
[21:29] <duanedesign> sorry go ahead PabloRubianes
[21:29] <PabloRubianes> duanedesign just tell everything ;-)
[21:29] <duanedesign> :x
[21:30] <PabloRubianes> now we are working on google docs... and we are goona use that material for launchpad wiki page, tutorials for edu FG, and for the launchpad FG
[21:31] <PabloRubianes> I imagine that Saj0577 was trying to find more people to help with the job
[21:32] <duanedesign> yes I just did the 'getting started' section and Bodhi is working on a packaging blog post which i am hoping to use :)
[21:32] <PabloRubianes> because this topic could be a inter FG work
[21:33] <duanedesign> But Launchpad is a fairly complex with a lot of tools. The result will be used between the Ubuntu wiki and the Education FG
[21:33] <Rocket2DMn> Don't forget to integrate with existing resources when working on any kind of documentation.
[21:33] <starcraftman> PabloRubianes: hmmm, didn't he want to talk about getting mentors from the FG to follow people after they pass through new Wiki course he was planning? I could be wrong, that's what told me I think.
[21:34] <duanedesign> Rocket2DMn: good point. Their is a lot already donee on the Launchpad wiki
[21:35] <duanedesign> Rocket2DMn: in a case like that is it better, in your opinion, to link to LP or duplicate the documentation w/ attribution
[21:35] <PabloRubianes> starcraftman: i don't know that Saj0577 ask me in a rush to be here...
[21:36] <PabloRubianes> starcraftman: he told me you could explain...
[21:36] <Rocket2DMn> duanedesign, better to link rather than to duplicate material.  That means if the original documentaiton changes, you don' thave to keep up
[21:36] <starcraftman> PabloRubianes: ah, hmmm, lemme get my logs then, think he explained it quite well on em.
[21:36] <Rocket2DMn> if the exisitng documentation is incorrect, you should alert the maintainer
[21:36] <Rocket2DMn> if it's a wiki page that is wrong, you can update it yourself
[21:37] <duanedesign> Rocket2DMn: good point. Launchpad does have a Doc Team :)
[21:37] <Rocket2DMn> yeah, you can file bugs against LP itself
[21:38] <duanedesign> Also Launchpad has a few screencasts up on youtube
[21:38] <duanedesign> I thought these were helpfull as I like screencasts.ubuntu.comm
[21:38] <duanedesign> does antone know the status of the screencast team
[21:39] <duanedesign> anyone*
[21:39] <duanedesign> I thought at one point it was part of the doc team
[21:39] <Rocket2DMn> duanedesign, you should ping pleia2 , she might know
[21:39] <duanedesign> kk
[21:39] <starcraft-ntbk> PabloRubianes: hurrah, I have the logs.
[21:40] <starcraft-ntbk> lp discussion done?
[21:40] <PabloRubianes> that's great
[21:42] <starcraft-ntbk> well from silence, I assume convo done, so back on topic.
[21:42] <starcraft-ntbk> Saj0577's proposal > http://pastebin.com/m521f705a
[21:42] <starcraft-ntbk> Not too much reading.
[21:43]  * starcraftman waits for people to read and turns futurama on.
[21:44] <Rocket2DMn> It sounds like not much is needed from our end in this.
[21:44] <Rocket2DMn> If the Edu FG ends up with users who are interested in documentation, they get sent our way
[21:44] <Rocket2DMn> we're more or less a back door direct to the ubuntu doc team
[21:44] <Rocket2DMn> We are happy to help people learn how to write documentation
[21:45] <starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: aye, from my understand intention was to set up some sort of course they give to new prospects and then we can look over em. Saves us some question answering I suppose.
[21:46] <Rocket2DMn> starcraft-ntbk, I think your rewrite of the Wiki FG page handles that pretty well, there is a section specifically for new users which includes links to getting started with the wiki
[21:47] <starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: hehe, thanks. I tried to make it simple. I'm with ya on your points, I don't mind answering questions, and if others wanna answer too, all the better :).
[21:47] <Rocket2DMn> We have found in the past that having a prolonged mentor/mentee system doesn't work that well in a distributed development environment - it is really up to the new person to ask questions and have others review their work
[21:48] <Rocket2DMn> that means that the user needs to be active in seeking advice and getting involved.  However, that's not to say that providing valuable information up front is not important.  One of the biggest problems some users have is knowing WHERE to get help/support
[21:48] <Rocket2DMn> It sounds like the Edu FG's goal is to make it easier for people to get involved in different areas by knowing where the knowledge base is
[21:49] <starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: indeed, I guess so. In any event, what Saj0577 is asking isn't too different from way we operate now with new folks I suppose so no problem.
[21:50] <starcraftman> Maybe once he flushes it out a bit more we'll get better idea.
[21:50] <starcraftman> I'm not privy to all his ideas, so maybe he had more than what was in my logs.
[21:51] <Rocket2DMn> starcraft-ntbk, it sounds like they act as traffic cops and a GPS - they can direct users in where to go in order to get involved, and where to get the initial information from
[21:51] <Rocket2DMn> perhaps they also help those seeking to contribute in finding what they are actually interested in doing
[21:52] <Rocket2DMn> in any case, i think we need more information, so let's move on and we can discuss it more later when Saj0577 gets back
[21:52] <starcraftman> indeed, before we move on, we still got other folks right? Us two been only ones talking!
[21:53]  * starcraftman pokes drs305 and nhasian who been particularly quiet.
[21:53] <drs305> I'm reading, but no inputs.
[21:53] <Rocket2DMn> lukjad007, duanedesign , you still with us, too?
[21:53] <duanedesign> My understanding of the Edu FG was that it was to handle..
[21:54] <starcraftman> Well you guys say something once and a while, just so we know ya there. :)
[21:54] <duanedesign> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning    How to Develop    How to spread
[21:55] <lukjad007> yes
[21:55] <Rocket2DMn> duanedesign, i think that is part of what they were doing, but they are trying to let that be a separate project now
[21:55] <Rocket2DMn> let's move on with our agenda
[21:55] <duanedesign> ohhhh,ok
[21:56] <starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: roger, ok, all mine.
[21:56] <starcraftman> Well first thing is new page as was already mentioned and linky > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Wiki
[21:57] <starcraftman> Just wanted some feedback on new layout, and people might wanna look over it again much improved organization wise. :)
[21:58] <drs305> I think I've already said I like it.  ... repeats himself.
[21:58] <drs305> Very nice look.
[21:59] <Rocket2DMn> I think it looks good, definitely more user friendly than it was before
[22:01] <starcraftman> K, well moving on. I was wanting to be sure everyones on the new BT mail list, uptake was a little slow (per nhandlers numbers), and I was thinking of maybe having a lil informal newletter once in a while.
[22:02] <starcraftman> Newletter go out by email to bounce off our bt list and it'd maybe detail certain projects to work on for a period, stuff folks could pick up. Just a thought, we don't seem to use the bt list so often.
[22:02] <Rocket2DMn> I like that idea, it's a good way to keep an open dialog between meetings (which only happen a few times a year)
[22:03] <duanedesign> starcraftman: good idea. I have implemented a newsletter awhile back with OKlahoma LoCo and it helps with momentum, keeping people excited about projects and they are informative
[22:04] <ZachK_> hello?
[22:05] <starcraftman> duanedesign: thanks. I'll look into it, that was about what I hoped. Probably not too much, just to keep people working on pages. Maybe have some special weeks where we do one task or other. Also, not too often, maybe every 2nd week or 3rd, depending how much going on.
[22:05] <ZachK_> hi team
[22:06] <Rocket2DMn> hey ZachK_ , we're finishing up a Wiki FG meeting - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Wiki
[22:07] <starcraftman> Well, I guess that's about it for that topic, I'll either write it up or co-lead which leads to last topic!
[22:07] <duanedesign> starcraftman: just an idea we might think about all the FG pitching in on one every so often.
[22:07] <ZachK_> Rocket2DMn, starcraftman just linked me the pages
[22:07] <starcraftman> duanedesign: one page?
[22:08] <duanedesign> starcraftman: i would hate for it to get to long and discourage people from reading it is the major drawback. I guess that would depend on the amount of info thought necessary by each group
[22:09] <ZachK_> Rocket2DMn, you're stepping down?!?!!?
[22:09] <duanedesign> and not every group would have something to contribute every few weeks
[22:09] <Rocket2DMn> ZachK_, yes
[22:10] <duanedesign> starcraftman: I always like reading the team reports from all the different teams to see what is going on
[22:10] <duanedesign> something like that from the FG would be neat
[22:10] <starcraftman> duanedesign: ahhhh, I see, a unified newsletter ya mean. I gotcha, sounds good, and your right, could be a sort of rolling thing since not everyone has something going on every week.
[22:11] <Rocket2DMn> ok, well let's start with an email for ourselves, and if other FGs want to try something similar, that is fine.  Discussion about implementing a unified email between FGs is material for a BT meeting discussion
[22:11] <starcraftman> Will have to bring it up at our regular team meeting on 4TH.
[22:11] <Rocket2DMn> ^5 starcraftman , we're on the same page
[22:11] <starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: Roger, just what I was saying. An intriguing idea. I Shall put it on docket.
[22:12] <starcraftman> So moving to last topic!
[22:13]  * ZachK_ claps
[22:13] <starcraftman> I'm thinking on a co-lead and I want to know who would be interested in assisting with whatever (probably most often when I'm not available or other tasks to assist). Nothing too glorious. So volunteers?
[22:14] <Rocket2DMn> i would nominate drs305 and lukjad007 as candidates
[22:14]  * ZachK_ volunteers of course
[22:15] <lukjad007> Heehee
[22:15] <drs305> Just got called to work. lukjad007 would be my recommendation. Talk to you all later. Bye.
[22:15] <lukjad007> Later drs305
[22:15] <ZachK_> he left pretty fast
[22:15] <starcraftman> and that was a quick departure.
[22:15] <Rocket2DMn> work on a saturday, what a pity
[22:15] <lukjad007> Yeahh
[22:15] <starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: Worse than exams on Saturday!
[22:16] <ZachK_> haha
[22:16] <starcraftman> lukjad007: So you'd be interested? I put ya and zack down for consideration.
[22:16] <ZachK_> So.......
[22:16] <lukjad007> I would be interested, yes
[22:16] <starcraftman> duanedesign: No thoughts?
[22:16] <ZachK_> nice
[22:16] <duanedesign> lol
[22:17] <ZachK_> be back gents...gotta eat my chicken/bacon/and ranch sandwhich
[22:17] <duanedesign> I think lukjad007 has shown a definite amount of dedication over time making hima good candidate
[22:17] <duanedesign> ZachK_: me hungry too
[22:17] <starcraftman> ZachK_: later, enjoy.
[22:17] <ZachK_> k
[22:17] <ZachK_> starcraftman, i expect to hear results? when i get back
[22:18] <starcraftman> Well I guess I only got two candidates atm, unless maybe I pull someone unexpected out of hat. I shall deliberate!
[22:19]  * ZachK_ crosses fingers
[22:19] <starcraftman> Shouldn't be too long, I guess that's end of meeting unless anyone have any last minute items?
[22:19] <ZachK_> ok i'm on lunch
[22:20] <starcraftman> K, well I guess /endmeeting
[22:20] <starcraftman> Thanks a bunch folks for showing up.
[22:20] <Rocket2DMn> cool
[22:20] <starcraftman> Oh and the cake I promised > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6ljFaKRTrI
[22:20] <starcraftman> :D
[22:21] <duanedesign> nice
[22:21] <starcraftman> Too bad drs left before.
[22:21]  * lukjad007 secretly bribes starcraftman 
[22:21] <starcraftman> lukjad007: lol
[22:21] <starcraftman> I'll have ya know I have high standads lukjad007.
[22:21] <Rocket2DMn> that was a long meeting
[22:21] <starcraftman> i.e. better be a good bribe!
[22:22] <starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: indeed, 70 minutes.
[22:23] <duanedesign> :) good meeting all
[22:23] <lukjad007> :D
[22:23] <starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: now, how do we make the log? I can't just copy this all right? Some means of formatting right?
[22:24] <Rocket2DMn> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/
[22:25] <Rocket2DMn> files get updated every hour, so you will need to wait a bit
[22:25] <starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: ah right, thanks, that's going in bookmarks.
[22:26] <Rocket2DMn> it's not the end of the world if sometimes oy have to use logs straight from your irc client
[22:28] <starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: k.
[22:52] <ZachK_> so...
[22:52] <ZachK_> who's the co-lead?