[02:55] Evening all [03:01] hi === highvolt1ge is now known as highvoltage [13:52] Morning all! [13:52] good morning. [14:00] scottmaccal: Back at work? [15:24] stgraber, highvoltage: ping [15:45] anybody around in here? [15:47] me [15:47] just us chickens [15:48] When I get back home tonight, I'll test the dvd [15:48] alkisg: ping [15:48] Hi all [15:48] hey [15:48] so we need a release announcement and release notes [15:48] what do you all want mentioned in either/both? [15:50] That we need people to get involved with edubuntu less it dies? :D [15:51] alkisg: anything else? :-) [15:53] There are many things I'd like to say, but I lack the words to express them... [15:54] Now that edubuntu is on a dvd instead of a cd, thanks to you, it can become something better but it needs a lot of work too [15:56] But I can't express myself about what needs to be done... [15:57] "Edubuntu has made major improvements in usability. It has gone back to being a full distro with a DVD installer" [15:57] Improvements to LTSP, and management tools also enhance the experience. [15:59] I think we should also put a big thank you there for LaserJock which will be "retiring" [15:59] ok, but what has changed from Jaunty [15:59] what potential pitfalls are there? [16:02] We should also specifically mention that sabayon is now again in a working state [16:02] ok, good one [16:03] edubuntu-server should be working due to jbicha's moodle fixes [16:03] gcompris had a pretty big version jump that includes several fixes [16:03] italc has had some improvements in autodetecting the clients and avoiding ports in use... [16:06] ...language support was added on the edubuntu dvd for many languages... [16:07] Marble has a visual changelog at http://edu.kde.org/marble/current_0.8.php [16:21] alkisg: we closed a lot of LTSP bugs, and I'd like to plow through, for next release, a lot of the bugs on some of the other packages. [16:21] screem looks like it needs some love :( [16:23] I'm trying to organize things for all greek schools that want to use standalone ubuntu installations (non-ltsp). So to be honest, I don't expect to have much time this year for bug squashing. [16:24] I'll be creating 2-3 packages and trying to push them upstream in universe, and I'll be writing wiki pages, though [16:27] For bugs, I'll try to help as much as I can with ltsp and italc... [16:29] alkisg: that that we ask is that you do what you can, when you can, everything helps! [16:30] * alkisg gives many, many hours per day to get Ubuntu to fit in Greek schools... :) [16:31] yeah, that's awesome stuff [16:31] you need to do a brain dump sometime [16:31] on what kinds of things you do [16:34] My "plan" is like this: (1) find what needs to be done for greek schools (sbalneav will hate me for abusing the unix users system) [16:34] (2) document it (3) script it (4) make a remix out of it (5) when I see that it is out there and working for greece, I'll try to "publish" as much as people want upstream [16:35] That last part has the most "beurocracy", which I hate... :) [16:35] sbalneav, dont forget ltsp-cluster support [16:36] (should surely be in the release notes) [16:36] LaserJock, all your new splits in the age dependant metapackages should be mentioned [16:42] for next release, I'd like us to get subject/topic metapackages like debian-edu uses, ubuntu-edu-geography ubuntu-edu-music , etc. [16:42] that might end in endless fragmentation though [16:43] yeah, I'm not convinced that we need a lot more meta-packages [16:43] LaserJock: pong [16:43] ubuntu-edu-geography-preschool, ubuntu-edu-geography-unioversity ... [16:43] stgraber: we need release notes and release announcement [16:43] possibly instead of ubuntu-edu-primary [16:43] * alkisg would like for edubuntu to provide an infrastructure for *other* people to do that (=make package collections) [16:43] highvoltage: highvoltage started to work on something on his gobby server [16:43] highvoltage: did you have a look ? [16:43] doh [16:43] LaserJock: ^ [16:43] stgraber: I don't know where it is [16:44] hang on a sec, looking at my jabber log [16:44] there's not a lot of difference between primary & preschool or between secondary & tertiary, stuff overlaps [16:44] currently no [16:44] it works for debian [16:44] so you would think gcompris is a good tool for universities ? [16:44] Debian is quite different from Ubuntu though [16:44] yeah [16:44] LaserJock: jono.co.za [16:45] or tuxtype [16:45] the release notes schema is there, just need to fill it [16:46] k, good [16:47] ogra: we could keep a category for young children, but "ubuntu-edu-tertiary" is too broad and not well-defined [16:48] that I can generally agree on [16:48] might be [16:48] what I think might be a better option [16:48] but turning it into task driven generates a big amount of maintenance overhead [16:49] and also puts up the question where you stop splitting [16:49] is to turn -tertiary or something similar into a "basic educational/research workstation" type install [16:49] so rather than doing specific topic-area apps [16:49] we do things like bibliography tools [16:49] writing and productivity tools [16:49] ++ [16:50] and some good theming [16:50] what I discussed a few times, is to have the ability to install everything, then have filtering using xdg to only show a few entries with the list of entries to be configurable (as it depends on the grade, the country and in some cases, the region) [16:50] (not that i would have to decide anything) :) [16:50] * ogra points to edubuntu-menus [16:50] some categorization is useful for findability, if I wanted to find recommended music software for education in Ubuntu, where would I go? [16:50] right [16:50] well [16:50] it has so much potential [16:50] I think there's sort of two area [16:50] and stioll nobody finished it [16:51] ogra: now that I'm retired you never know ;-) [16:51] jbicha, software-center [16:51] LaserJock, hah [16:51] LaserJock, you mean like edubuntu grew a community after is stepped back ? [16:51] I think we can categorize without metapackages [16:51] yeah [16:52] just add the right patches to software-center [16:52] I think it should be considered that we have a custom software-center view [16:52] ++ [16:52] ogra: there's 104 choices for music, I don't know if any of them are useful [16:52] LaserJock: ooh, we can do that? [16:52] software-center is at some point supposed to replace all GUI package management tools [16:52] jbicha: sure, why not? [16:52] I was thinking this weekend [16:52] jbicha, software-.center only had its first release, its still open to improvements [16:53] lucid is the perfect time to spec such additions [16:53] that we need a core Edubuntu [16:53] yeah, I just wasn't creative enough to think of that [16:53] that's about theming, productivity, and a general educational feel [16:53] *without* specific educational content areas [16:53] and without much age specificity [16:54] yeah [16:54] and then add on those layers [16:54] what we're doing now is the opposite [16:54] making the general (edubuntu-desktop) depend on the specific [16:54] I think we should reverse that and make the specific depend on the general [16:54] and make the specific more accessible to the end user [16:55] I think that could be done via Ubiquity and Software Center [16:56] essentially [16:57] I'm thinking Edubuntu should be "plugin" based [16:57] we provide a core and the means to plug in extras edu goodness [16:57] s/extras/extra/ [16:59] LaserJock, and you dare to resign with such an idea in mind ? tsk [16:59] I got the ideas [16:59] just not the time :( [17:00] have we considered the KDE desktop for Edubuntu? I mean there's kde-edu but not a similar project for GNOME [17:01] jbicha: edubuntu-desktop-kde [17:02] if we consider this plugin-based design I think it would be entirely conceivable to make it work very well on Kubuntu [17:02] I think you still need to pick one in terms of the DVD [17:02] but GNOME's the default, is GNOME more usable (or better supported by Ubuntu) in schools? [17:02] How hard is it for an admin to provide a list of packages? Do we really have to give such a big focus to package selection? Wouldn't it be better if we focused in some "out of the box" solutions? (like e.g. prepared ldap/nfs configurations...) [17:02] alkisg: I agree [17:03] * alkisg is right onto that this year... :) [17:04] but some "out of the box" solutions will be app-dependent [17:05] consider the "parent with small kids" solution [17:06] Well, we could provide him a dansguardian-based solution or something... [17:06] preciously [17:06] I think looking at out of the box "solutions" as plugins to a core Edubuntu sounds interesting [17:07] so what's needed are: [17:07] 1) the core [17:07] * alkisg thinks more people will be interested in this than in meta-packages [17:07] 2) a few "solutions" that Edubuntu does *very* well [17:07] 3) putting it all on an installation media [17:09] it would be good *hint* to spec this out and see if it could work for Lucid [17:12] so these "solutions" would be separate from the normal deb dependency system....because otherwise it's just metapackages with a different name (& possibly philosophy) [17:15] they might be implemented via metapackages [17:15] it doesn't matter a whole lot [17:16] it's more the design of it than the actual implementation method [17:18] by the way, does anyone have a list of stuff that needs to be packaged, the software I could find (like BlueJ) has been too complicated [17:19] unless something is brand new, if we dont' have a package yet in Debian/Ubuntu it's probably for a reason :-0 [17:19] :-) rather [17:20] LaserJock (since I think is in your field) have you looked at http://phet.colorado.edu/index.php for packaging? [17:21] yeah, but...you say you need help with packaging [17:22] jbicha: ah, well by packaging I usually mean package maintenance [17:22] jbicha: things like that moodle fixing you did [17:22] alkisg: I don't think those are open source [17:23] LaserJock: oh ok, that's probably better than starting from scratch anyway [17:23] http://phet.colorado.edu/about/licensing.php [17:23] ok, yeah, great [17:24] so yeah, I guess they'd be a candidate [17:24] scratch could also be a candidate... [17:24] it used to be we didn't have a Free java VM, which ruled out us shipping and java apps [17:24] http://scratch.mit.edu/ [17:24] * LaserJock runs [17:24] Heh :) [17:24] I don't want to touch anything related to Squeak :-) [17:25] but yeah, somebody should look at scratch [17:27] Also I've heard many teachers here using http://belvedere.sourceforge.net/ ... [17:28] interesting [17:29] Finally, klatin was used but is no longer maintained upstream :( [17:30] yeah, that died during KDE3 -> KDE4 [17:37] oh, neat, there's already a PPA for scratch https://launchpad.net/~scratch/+archive/ppa [18:00] what about squeak? [18:01] scratch is a cool game [18:01] kind of like etoys, only with pre-made art and nicer puzzle-shaped blocks [18:05] mhall119|work: squeak and I have a long and not-very-pleasant past :-) [18:07] heh, I can understand [18:10] ok, time for me and jammcq to head to the airport [18:11] be on tonight [18:13] sbalneav: k [18:41] hmm [18:41] I wonder if we should combine the release notes and release announcement [18:42] LaserJock: pong [18:42] hi LaserJock [18:43] LaserJock: my initial understanding was that it would be pretty much the same [18:43] LaserJock: sorry that I didn't finish it (or even start it properly), I just haven't been able to concentrate enough to just get it done [18:44] highvoltage: well, the Ubuntu release notes are mostly (here are known problems) [18:45] highvoltage: whereas the release announcement is all the "this is who we are and how you get it" [18:45] I don't know how many "known problems" we're going to have that aren't already covered in Ubuntu's notes [18:46] perhaps we should have Release Notes be the full version with all the info [18:46] and the announcement just be a brief couple paragraphs [18:48] LaserJock: that sounds like a very good [18:48] LaserJock: awesome opening paragraph you put there [18:49] highvoltage: thanks [18:49] highvoltage: do you have a little time now? [18:50] LaserJock: yep [18:50] stgraber: available'ish? [18:51] highvoltage: it looks like what Ubuntu does is write the release notes on the wiki and keep a copy there, but the official location (where user and links go to) is on the website [18:51] LaserJock: doing some iso testing, so yeah [18:51] highvoltage: I think it would make sense to do similar so we can update the release notes (I'm guessing there'll have more "known issues" after release) [18:51] my general thought is that the Release Notes should be a bit more prominent [18:52] LaserJock: ok [18:52] in the sense that as time goes by after release and big issues come up [18:52] we should document them in the Known Issues [18:52] and *then* point people their [18:52] *there [18:52] so like last release we had this stupid bug in Gcompris that I couldn't fix via an SRU [18:53] that should have gone into the release notes, even though I found out about it post-release [18:53] and when people had problems I could at least point to the release notes [18:53] it could be sort of a "go there first, then ask questions" type thing [18:54] thoughts? [18:54] LaserJock: I have to leave for a few mintes, I'll be back in about 10 minutes (sorry just have to help someone quickly) [18:54] np [18:55] LaserJock: sounds good [18:56] not sure we have anything broken at the moment (other than what's common with Ubuntu) [18:56] right [18:56] so we should redirect readers to Ubuntu's as well [18:56] what's the state of Moodle ? I remember reading about some issues there, has that been fixed ? [18:56] we are [18:56] I *think* it's fixed :-) [18:57] that was going to be something that was going in Known Issues, but I think jbica has fixed that [18:57] for know we can basically leave an empty section with "Important issues and workarounds will be noted here" [18:58] "At the time of the release, we haven't been made aware of any issues outside of these listed in the Ubuntu release notes. Additional information may be added here at a later time" ? [18:59] yeah, perfect [19:30] hmmm [19:31] uh oh [19:31] what'd I do now [19:31] not you, LP :) [19:32] highvoltage, stgraber: can you guys read over what I have so far? [19:32] LP's UI and I have never gotten along quite well [19:32] LaserJock: I went through it and I think it's good [19:33] hmm, there was something I was remembering that should go into known issues but I've forgotten [19:33] LaserJock: what's the URL for the edubuntu bugs again? I'm failing to find it atm [19:33] highvoltage: I just added some to What's New [19:33] highvoltage: bugs.launchpad.net/~edubuntu-bugsquad/+packagereport ? [19:33] that's from memory so YMMV [19:35] LaserJock: on the ltsp-cluster line, it has been available before, but what's new this time is that it's now available in the ubuntu archives [19:35] well [19:35] LaserJock: I've modified the description but I'm not sure whether it's nice. [19:36] it doesn't exist until it's in the archives :-) [19:36] LaserJock: our previous release notes disagrees! [19:36] fine, be that way ;-p [19:37] highvoltage: how's that? [19:37] LaserJock: good, although reading the 9.04 announcements again I think it's fine like it was [19:37] LaserJock: it (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/WikiSite/Release/9.04/ReleaseNotes) just mentioned that the thin client supported ltsp-cluster, not that it was available for installation [19:37] LaserJock: so your original point there was probably fine [19:38] well [19:38] tbh I'm kinda of not considering the 9.04 release notes much [19:38] that was the old Edubuntu! [19:38] :) [19:38] LaserJock: *hug* [19:54] highvoltage, stgraber: time to put this on the wiki? [19:55] LaserJock: +1 [19:55] LaserJock: I can't think of anything important that isn't covered yet [19:55] what URL do we want? [19:55] /Edubuntu/Release/9.10/ReleaseNotes? [19:56] LaserJock: http://wiki.edubuntu.org/edubuntu/edubuntuwikisite/wikisite/officialnotes/releasenotes/karmic/9.04/KarmicReleaseNotes [19:56] * highvoltage ducks [19:56] or should it be /Releases/ (i kind of have a problem with putting multple things into a singular category but maybe that's just me) [19:57] LaserJock: as in /Edubuntu/Releases/9.10 ? [19:57] yeah [19:57] I think that's good [19:57] just because we're putting multiple releases in there [19:58] *nod* [20:03] LaserJock: +1 [20:10] stgraber, highvoltage (and anybody else): https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Releases/9.10/ReleaseNotes [20:10] I tweaked the known issues section [20:12] LaserJock: thanks, that's a relief [20:14] highvoltage, stgraber: now working on announcement [20:14] I've copied over the top bits from the release notes [20:15] I think if we condense that a bit and add in a "Where to get it" I think it should be good [20:15] LaserJock: so the Release Announcements will be a few paragraphs? [20:15] yeah, I think it should be pretty brief [20:16] I guess the most important things are "hey, we're new!" and "here's how you get it" [20:16] thoughts? [20:16] LaserJock: yeah [20:21] gah [20:21] and a live gah? [20:21] what the heck do you call a LiveCD session? [20:22] I want words normal people can understand [20:22] I've never known it by any other name than a "Live CD session" [20:23] I guess you could spell it out like "try it out by running it directly from the DVD without installing" or something similar [20:24] how does that sound? [20:25] yeah [20:25] feels like it's missing something [20:25] I'm in a weird perfectionistic mode where nothing just feels right. sorry :/ [20:26] I've made a slight change but if it doesn't sound right feel free to remove [20:26] well it's only a problem if you dont' fix it ;-) [20:26] ah, much better, IMO [20:27] highvoltage: how about just plain "modifying your computer"? [20:27] k [20:28] (I was thinking of that too) [20:28] good [20:28] highvoltage: s/try/run/ ? [20:29] k [20:29] let's move on to installation before we pick it to death :-) [20:29] heh, indeed [20:29] I'm bummed that I don't have an edubuntu iso and not enough bandwidth do sync up :/ [20:30] it would be nice to have an installation guide with screenshots again [20:30] highvoltage: since we already described what you can do with the DVD above I suggest we maybe just tell how to get the .iso and link to how to burn it [20:30] I guess I could still do that after the 1st [20:30] sure [20:37] (brb) [20:42] Hi! Anyone else getting nbd+squashfs errors when rebooting ltsp thin clients on karmic? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/457702 [20:42] Launchpad bug 457702 in ubuntu "nbd+squashfs errors when rebooting ltsp thin clients" [Undecided,New] [20:44] LaserJock: I don't have isos but I have the karmic repositories at least [20:44] LaserJock: if you don't find a kde user I could install kde on my netbook if there's enough space [20:45] it's just a quick thing [20:47] highvoltage: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Releases/9.10/ReleaseAnnouncement [20:48] I want to add a thing on how to install the app bundles from Kubuntu [20:51] LaserJock: ok installing kpackagekit... I just confirmed with #kubuntu that that's what they actually use [21:03] good grief [21:03] like all the servers are crawling today [21:04] I guess everyone is keeping their debmirrors as up to date as possible in anticipation [21:05] I need to get how to get to kpackagekit :( [21:11] ok, done [21:12] highvoltage: can you do the wiki - > edubuntu.org on release day? [21:16] highvoltage, stgraber: OK, I'm done. [21:16] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Releases/9.10/ReleaseAnnouncement [21:16] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Releases/9.10/ReleaseNotes [21:17] ^^ those need to be put on edubuntu.org for release day [21:17] make sure to note that there are 2 FIXME markers in the announcement [21:17] I don't know what the exact URL for the .iso is going to be [21:18] There is a hopefully final .iso up at http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/dvd/20091027.1/ [21:18] please test those if you can [21:19] and with that I'm out [21:19] not sure when I'll be on next [21:19] so have a great release everybody and thanks! === Ahmuck is now known as Ahmuck-Sr [22:57] Hey all....I need help....this is somewhat related to edubuntu as it is for Open1to1.org and the image that I create for school netbooks.... [22:57] I have had schools complaining that students are creating "ad hoc" networks via network-manager and thus wreaking havoc on the school wireless network [22:58] does anyone know of a way (clean or hack...I'm desperate here) of disabling the ability to create...and/or connect to an ad-hoc wireless network?