| === mwhudson_ is now known as mwhudson | ||
| === mwhudson_ is now known as mwhudson | ||
| === matsubara-afk is now known as matsubara | ||
| === mrevell is now known as mrevell-lunch | ||
| === mrevell-lunch is now known as mrevell | ||
| * sinzui looks about | 14:01 | |
| sinzui | #startmeeting | 14:01 |
|---|---|---|
| sinzui | hello everyone and welcome to this week's ameu reviewers meeting. who's here today? | 14:01 |
| MootBot | Meeting started at 09:01. The chair is sinzui. | 14:01 |
| MootBot | Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] | 14:01 |
| abentley | me | 14:02 |
| === flacoste_afk is now known as flacoste | ||
| flacoste | me | 14:02 |
| EdwinGrubbs | me | 14:02 |
| sinzui | hmm, we may be an hour early | 14:02 |
| gary_poster | me | 14:02 |
| salgado | me | 14:02 |
| intellectronica | me | 14:02 |
| salgado | sinzui, I don't think so | 14:02 |
| henninge | me | 14:02 |
| al-maisan | me | 14:02 |
| deryck | me | 14:03 |
| henninge | danilo has a bed headache so he might not come. | 14:03 |
| adeuring | me | 14:03 |
| henninge | s/bed/bad/ | 14:03 |
| henninge | dunno if he's in bed ... | 14:03 |
| sinzui | we all have laptops. I assume that some of you are attending this meeting from your bed in you pajamas | 14:04 |
| sinzui | [TOPIC] agenda | 14:05 |
| sinzui | * Roll call | 14:05 |
| sinzui | * Action items | 14:05 |
| sinzui | * UI review call update | 14:05 |
| sinzui | * Peanut gallery | 14:05 |
| MootBot | New Topic: agenda | 14:05 |
| intellectronica | pyjamas are a redundant nicety | 14:05 |
| sinzui | [Topic] Action items | 14:05 |
| MootBot | New Topic: Action items | 14:05 |
| sinzui | * barry to get with mrevell on guidelines migration from old wiki to new | 14:05 |
| sinzui | ^ I do not think this has happened | 14:05 |
| mrevell | No, it hasn't. My apologies, it's still on my "to do" | 14:06 |
| sinzui | mrevell: thanks | 14:06 |
| sinzui | I will keep it on the agrenda | 14:06 |
| sinzui | * intellectronica and barry to draft guidelines for drive-by cleanups | 14:06 |
| intellectronica | sorry, i didn't find the time to do this. please keep it on the list, i will do it next week when there's a bit more time | 14:06 |
| sinzui | I will | 14:06 |
| sinzui | [Topic] UI review call update | 14:06 |
| MootBot | New Topic: UI review call update | 14:06 |
| sinzui | Gosh this weeks meeting was pretty quick. | 14:07 |
| intellectronica | yeah, the only interesting item was about helping developers get up to speed with integrating widgets | 14:08 |
| intellectronica | we decided to talk to tim, who reported some difficulties and has started documenting the process | 14:08 |
| intellectronica | if any developer still hasn't done any integration work for lazr js widgets, and wants some help and/or wants to help documenting the steps they take, you are most welcome | 14:09 |
| sinzui | thanks intellectronica. | 14:09 |
| sinzui | [Topic] Peanut gallery | 14:10 |
| MootBot | New Topic: Peanut gallery | 14:10 |
| intellectronica | b.t.w francis regularly sends meeting notes for that call now. do we really need this section in this meeting? | 14:10 |
| sinzui | Indeed I was looking at those notes | 14:10 |
| sinzui | I think we are only concerned that the team is reading them | 14:11 |
| intellectronica | we can do a quiz | 14:11 |
| sinzui | lightning reviews of the week that was | 14:12 |
| intellectronica | thanks sinzui, you should always chair ;) | 14:12 |
| sinzui | I'll bring this matter up with the antipodeans. | 14:12 |
| sinzui | As I think about all the talent whose attention I assume I have, I want advice on how to test something I have seen in reviews. | 14:13 |
| allenap | me | 14:13 |
| sinzui | I do not like story tests that verify a link it not present; they are not a part of the story | 14:14 |
| sinzui | We have tales formatters that ensure the links is rendered correctly (or not at all) and we have permission decorators for links | 14:15 |
| sinzui | So as long as the link is defined correctly and the approved formatter is used, I do not want to vague test that some user does not see the link... | 14:15 |
| sinzui | But there is a problem with out links and views that we are *not* tesing | 14:16 |
| sinzui | lp.testing.menu has a helper that will verify all the links in the menu have a view. During the 3.0 release I found many that did not! | 14:16 |
| sinzui | I used the helper to find and remove the bad links | 14:17 |
| sinzui | Last week I found a new problem that I do not know how to test... | 14:17 |
| sinzui | We have links and views that disagree about permission. | 14:17 |
| sinzui | eg. the link is public, the view is edit. | 14:18 |
| sinzui | in my case, though, there was a companion view that as launchpad.View. I had to audit many links and views. | 14:19 |
| sinzui | Q: Is it possible to test that a link and its view have the same permission? | 14:19 |
| * sinzui thanks everyone for their patience | 14:19 | |
| adeuring | sinzui: perhaps I'm missing your point why tests for non-existence in stories are bad (for yure they are noisy), but they can ensure that the right permission decorator is used. | 14:21 |
| adeuring | ...non-existience of links... | 14:21 |
| sinzui | adeuring: checking for non-existence in a story is wrong. | 14:21 |
| adeuring | sinzui: where else would you do do this test? | 14:23 |
| sinzui | adeuring: we can test the links elsewhere. in fact, the menu helper could be used to verify all links for permission, but that will not help with the link to view permission | 14:23 |
| sinzui | adeuring: testing contract and implementation details belong in browser/tests | 14:24 |
| adeuring | ok | 14:24 |
| intellectronica | sinzui: i think i understand why you dislike testing this kind of stuff in stories, but you should consider the benefits. i think they outweigh the problems with this approach | 14:24 |
| intellectronica | doctests are easier to write and read, and most importantly much much easier to maintain, because they include a lot more context | 14:25 |
| sinzui | The testrbowser is not testing tales, and stories should not know about markup. | 14:25 |
| intellectronica | sinzui: why? | 14:25 |
| sinzui | intellectronica: browser/tests can be unit or doc they can even employ the test browser. | 14:26 |
| intellectronica | sinzui: that's going back to the chaos we had before the tree re-org | 14:26 |
| sinzui | intellectronica: Stories are integration tests that verify that a user can traverse many pages to accomplish a task. it is slow and labourious to use it to test details that have many factors at play at a high level | 14:27 |
| intellectronica | sinzui: is this about the time it takes to run the test suite? | 14:28 |
| sinzui | intellectronica: We still have chaos since we have developer writing form contract testing in stories | 14:28 |
| sinzui | intellectronica: no, it is about knowing what we are testing and how we test it | 14:28 |
| intellectronica | sinzui: but placing the files in a certain place or writing them in a particular format doesn't buy you confidence that you're testing what you need to | 14:29 |
| sinzui | intellectronica: you misunderstand me. | 14:29 |
| flacoste | sinzui: regarding the discrepancy in permission between links and views, it's usually on-purpose, the link is public but the view protected so that the user can see the link, but is asked to log in | 14:30 |
| sinzui | Testing the rules of a link or a form are best done in isolation where you control that is happen. | 14:30 |
| flacoste | sinzui: it's only a problem if the user is logged in and has permission to the link and not the view | 14:30 |
| sinzui | flacoste: after discovering the link issue, I tried the links in production. I got a 403 | 14:31 |
| sinzui | flacoste: I understand your point. I think the approach to invite users to explore a feature is fine | 14:33 |
| flacoste | right | 14:33 |
| sinzui | Well I do not think there is any more to say on this. | 14:35 |
| intellectronica | sinzui: maybe this is a good topic for the list? i really think that i don't understand the motivation behind your argument, so i could use a for-dummies explanation | 14:35 |
| sinzui | intellectronica: I will. I can get examples | 14:36 |
| intellectronica | sinzui: thanks | 14:36 |
| sinzui | Does anyone else have an issue to announce/discuss | 14:37 |
| sinzui | 5 | 14:37 |
| sinzui | 4 | 14:37 |
| sinzui | 3 | 14:37 |
| sinzui | 2 | 14:37 |
| sinzui | 1 | 14:37 |
| sinzui | thank you everyone. | 14:38 |
| sinzui | #endmeeting | 14:38 |
| MootBot | Meeting finished at 09:38. | 14:38 |
| === salgado is now known as salgado-lunch | ||
| === rockstar is now known as rockstar-afk | ||
| === salgado-lunch is now known as salgado | ||
| === leonardr_ is now known as leonardr | ||
| === matsubara is now known as matsubara-lunch | ||
| === rockstar-afk is now known as rockstar | ||
| === matsubara-lunch is now known as matsubara | ||
| === salgado is now known as salgado-afk | ||
| === matsubara is now known as matsubara-afk | ||
| sinzui | sorry | 21:12 |
| * sinzui was distracted | 21:13 | |
| sinzui | who wants to talk about reviews? | 21:13 |
| rockstar | sinzui, :) | 21:13 |
| mwhudson | hi | 21:14 |
| rockstar | thumper, wgrant, hi | 21:14 |
| sinzui | #startmeeting | 21:14 |
| MootBot | Meeting started at 16:14. The chair is sinzui. | 21:14 |
| MootBot | Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] | 21:14 |
| thumper | reviewer meeting? | 21:14 |
| sinzui | hello everyone and welcome to this week's antipodean reviewers meeting. who's here today? | 21:14 |
| * rockstar is | 21:14 | |
| mwhudson | i am here | 21:15 |
| * sinzui thinks everyone who will attend has spoken | 21:15 | |
| thumper | me | 21:15 |
| sinzui | [TOPIC] agenda | 21:15 |
| MootBot | New Topic: agenda | 21:15 |
| sinzui | * Roll call | 21:15 |
| sinzui | * Action items | 21:15 |
| sinzui | * UI review call update | 21:15 |
| sinzui | * Peanut gallery | 21:15 |
| sinzui | [Topic] Action items | 21:16 |
| MootBot | New Topic: Action items | 21:16 |
| sinzui | * barry to get with mrevell on guidelines migration from old wiki to new | 21:16 |
| sinzui | ^ Not done yet | 21:16 |
| sinzui | * intellectronica and barry to draft guidelines for drive-by cleanups | 21:16 |
| sinzui | ^ Not done yet | 21:16 |
| sinzui | [Topic] UI review call update | 21:16 |
| MootBot | New Topic: UI review call update | 21:16 |
| * sinzui looks for trascript | 21:16 | |
| sinzui | intellectronica: yeah, the only interesting item was about helping developers get up to speed with integrating widgets | 21:16 |
| sinzui | intellectronica: we decided to talk to tim, who reported some difficulties and has started documenting the process | 21:17 |
| sinzui | intellectronica: if any developer still hasn't done any integration work for lazr js widgets, and wants some help and/or wants to help documenting the steps they take, you are most welcome | 21:17 |
| sinzui | Since the UI meeting is producing notes for all of us to read, do we need a weekly update in this meeting? | 21:17 |
| thumper | sinzui: intellectronica tried, but I was busy :) | 21:17 |
| rockstar | sinzui, I think lazr-js could use more documentation in general. | 21:18 |
| sinzui | I think documentation and lack of leadership was a concern for other canonical groups when they were told of use it | 21:19 |
| rockstar | sinzui, so does lazr-js need a leader? | 21:19 |
| sinzui | beuno: quickly recovered by inviting landscape and U1 people to the lazr-js sprint | 21:19 |
| sinzui | rockstar: Without a sense of who is guiding it, many potential contributors are hesitant to join | 21:20 |
| sinzui | moving on | 21:21 |
| sinzui | [Topic] Peanut gallery | 21:21 |
| MootBot | New Topic: Peanut gallery | 21:21 |
| * thumper throws a peanut at sinzui | 21:21 | |
| sinzui | I brought up the topic of menu and link testing. I do not like the testing that link is not present in a story | 21:22 |
| sinzui | The matter was complicated by a subdiscussions about where and what we test | 21:22 |
| mwhudson | we test far too much in stories, yes | 21:22 |
| mwhudson | sinzui: i notice that registry has far more tests in browser/tests these days | 21:23 |
| sinzui | We are doing a lot of view tests since we have a tremendous number of them | 21:24 |
| sinzui | Menus are defines in browser, so that is where I expect to so verification of link permissions, state, etc... | 21:24 |
| mwhudson | yep, i think it's a good thing | 21:25 |
| sinzui | I think I need to take my concerns to the dev list. | 21:25 |
| mwhudson | this reviewers meeting has a slightly different approach to testing than the other one sometimes :-) | 21:25 |
| sinzui | I am certain of two things. We have links to views that do not exist. We have links with permissions different from the view it links to | 21:25 |
| mwhudson | seems likely | 21:26 |
| sinzui | Gentleman, do you have any concerns that we should be discussing? | 21:27 |
| sinzui | 5 | 21:27 |
| mwhudson | nope | 21:28 |
| thumper | nope | 21:28 |
| sinzui | 4 | 21:28 |
| sinzui | 3 | 21:28 |
| sinzui | 2 | 21:28 |
| sinzui | 1 | 21:28 |
| sinzui | thank you gentleman. I will compile the transcripts | 21:28 |
| mwhudson | thanks sinzui | 21:28 |
| sinzui | #endmeeting | 21:29 |
| MootBot | Meeting finished at 16:29. | 21:29 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!