[05:58] <mac_v> nemo: http://jimmac.musichall.cz/log/?p=177 , this is a good explanation of why the bigger sizes of the icons are needed ;)
[05:59] <mac_v> nemo: we did the 64px icons because UNR used the 64px icons in the menus , and rather than scaling the 48px icons  , we thought the icons if present in 64px would help make the appearance look better.
[06:00] <mac_v> we will also be adding more 128px icons sizes , for icons which are used in bigger sizes
[06:08] <mac_v> nemo: also the panel size depends on the font size and not the icon size , contrary to what you state above. Reduce the font size and the panel will also be smaller , I'm using a 19px panel
[06:10] <mac_v> reduce the application size and the panel will also allowed to be smaller
[06:10] <mac_v> application font size*
[10:33]  * ckontros waves
[10:35]  * SiDi doesn't.
[10:36] <ckontros> :(
[10:36]  * SiDi bounces instead
[10:48]  * thorwil is reminded of the bouncing ball intro of the old ghostbusters game
[10:48] <thorwil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lh-xwAopy0
[11:51] <ckontros> Anyone know why GIMP.org is down?
[12:20] <thorwil> ckontros: the site is sad because the name "gimp" is being discussed on the list once more!
[12:20] <ckontros> What? The "name" is under discussion?
[12:22] <thorwil> ckontros: yes. though it is _very_ unlikely anything will happen. someone suggested to replace the Gnu with Perfect ... ;)
[12:22]  * thorwil leaves for a bicycle ride
[12:22] <ckontros> Ahh...
[16:38] <nemo> mac_v: I reduced font sizes
[16:38] <nemo> mac_v: and wasn't able to get the panel smaller
[16:38] <nemo> mac_v: the instant I shrank start-here.png the panel reduced in size
[16:39] <nemo> perhaps you're suggesting that what is forcing the 22px image instead of the 16px image is font dependant?
[16:39] <nemo> anyway. others have run into the same thing
[16:39] <nemo> the panel says it is 19px high, but is actually 24, until start-here is shrunk
[16:39] <nemo> I'd just as soon keep the font size I have though, with a smaller icon
[16:40]  * ckontros , with his fonts set to 8px can reduce the panel to 19pixels.
[16:40] <nemo> mac_v: if you want, I can show you a before/after by simply moving my ~/.icons dir w/ its labyrinth of symlinks
[16:40] <nemo> ckontros: did you measure the actual panel height? :)
[16:40] <nemo> screenshot plz!
[16:40] <nemo> anyway. 8px is way too small
[16:41] <nemo> ckontros: http://m8y.org/tmp/Screenshot.jpeg - my desktop w/ shrunken start-here
[16:42] <mac_v> nemo: humanity has a 16px icon , not sure why there was a need to shrink the icon
[16:43] <nemo> mac_v: well. that's why I asked if it was doing some crude trigger based on font size to shrink the panel icon
[16:43] <mac_v> btw  , 8px , is not too small ;p  ..
[16:43] <nemo> mac_v: my suspicion is "yes"
[16:43] <nemo> if you simply try to reduce the panel size to 20/19px it ignores you, and sticks with the larger icon
[16:43] <mac_v> i'v been using 8px , since i felt 10px was too big :)
[16:43] <nemo> unlike most things that scale correctly
[16:44] <ckontros> I run 1920x1200 w/8px.
[16:44] <nemo> however, if you lie to it and tell it the 16px is the 24px one
[16:44] <nemo> then it uses that, and the panel can now resize down correctly
[16:44] <mac_v> nemo : you can force the icon using gtkrc
[16:44] <nemo> oh? that'd be nice too?
[16:44] <nemo> where.
[16:44] <ckontros> nemo: You seem to just want more padding around the icon. So what you did is fine.
[16:44] <nemo> no
[16:44] <nemo> ckontros: I don't want more padding. I want the panel at 20px or 19px instead of 24px
[16:45] <nemo> ckontros: let me fire up the laptop and show you what happens if I remove the symlinks :)
[16:45] <nemo> panel gets taller due to start-here
[16:45] <nemo> ignoring the panel size
[16:45] <nemo> oooone sec
[16:45] <mac_v> nemo: in the gtk theme , you can force the icons size
[16:45] <nemo> btw, there are many ubuntu forum threads on this
[16:45] <mac_v> gtk-icon-sizes = "panel-menu=16,16"
[16:45] <nemo> mac_v: I just want to force *that* icon size. if you could show that, it'd be great
[16:45] <nemo> cool
[16:45] <nemo> I'll give that a shot
[16:45] <nemo> lemme dig up the laptop
[16:45] <mac_v> nemo: add that to the gtkdc of the theme
[16:46] <mac_v> gtkrc*
[16:47] <ckontros> AFAIK, you cant bet below 21 without going to a 8px font, editing the gtkrc or changing the icons. Which you have done.
[16:47] <nemo> well. of the 3, gtkrc is tidier.
[16:47] <mac_v> yup , i dont think you can without having smaller font ;)
[16:47] <nemo> although the .icons has advantage of being user specific
[16:47] <ckontros> But forcing that icon size with do it for everything in the panel or panel menu I believe.
[16:47] <nemo> oh. hum
[16:48] <nemo> ckontros: that would make icons smaller than 16 increase in size?
[16:48] <mac_v> nemo: AFAIK , you need to force for every applet on the panel
[16:48] <mac_v> the messaging menu uses a 22px icon
[16:48] <mac_v> there is not 16px icon size for that
[16:49] <mac_v> no*
[16:49] <ckontros> mac_v: I /think/ it can be panel-global or app-specific. Can't remember.
[16:53] <nemo> http://m8y.org/tmp/temp.txt - my overkill symlinks
[16:53] <nemo> ok. now to try the gtkrc suggestion
[16:53] <nemo> will move .icons somewhere
[16:56] <nemo> mac_v: where would I put gtk-icon-sizes ?
[16:56] <nemo> oh wait
[16:56] <nemo> I already did that
[16:56] <nemo> it didn't work
[16:57] <mac_v> nemo: is the theme in the .icons or  in usr/share?   [just taking a wild guess , since that option works when human theme uses it]
[16:57] <nemo> $ grep -Ev "^[[:space:]]*$|^[[:space:]]*#" .gtkrc-2.0
[16:57] <nemo> gtk-icon-sizes="gtk-menu=16,16"
[16:57] <nemo> gtk-icon-sizes="gtk-button=16,16"
[16:57] <nemo> gtk-icon-sizes="gtk-small-toolbar=16,16"
[16:57] <nemo> gtk-icon-sizes="gtk-large-toolbar=16,16"
[16:57] <mac_v> .themes*
[16:57] <nemo> gtk-icon-sizes="gtk-dnd=16,16" #don't know
[16:57] <nemo> gtk-icon-sizes="gtk-dialog=16,16" #don't know
[16:57] <nemo> gtk-icon-sizes="panel-menu=16,16:gtk-large-toolbar=20,20"
[16:57] <nemo> I've always had those in there
[16:58] <nemo> but I still need to do the ~/.icons thing
[16:58] <mac_v> nemo: hmm , what .icons thing?
[16:58] <nemo> hm. also my font size *is* 8!
[16:58] <nemo> how odd
[16:58] <mac_v> lol
[16:58] <nemo> mac_v: the symlink thing I referenced above
[16:58] <nemo> ok. so I'm clearly comfortable at 8. hmmm
[16:58] <nemo> so why does it work for you, but not for me
[16:59] <ckontros> Maybe you have things in your gtkrc messing with it?
[16:59] <nemo> ckontros: that's my entire gtkrc above
[16:59] <nemo> um. I can send you the theme gtkrc as well I guess
[16:59] <ckontros> No need.
[16:59] <nemo> (as opposed to user)
[17:00] <nemo> I see nothing in the Humanity gtkrc that seems likely - I did reduce the widths of things, I certainly didn't increase anything
[17:00] <nemo> anyway. I'm not the only one to resort to this :)
[17:00] <nemo> but it works ok. just a bit convoluted
[17:01] <nemo> I guess what would be a timesaver would be a "small display" theme :)
[17:01] <mac_v> nemo: in the *human* gtkrc it is in line 8
[17:01] <nemo> one that tightens everything up
[17:02] <nemo> gtk-icon-sizes = "panel-menu=24,24:gtk-button=16,16"
[17:02] <nemo> that one?
[17:02] <mac_v> yup ,
[17:02] <mac_v> but that was for 24,24 , so i gave you a 16,16 ;)
[17:02] <nemo> huh. that should have been overridden by my gtkrc personal
[17:02] <nemo> riiight
[17:02] <nemo> but my ~/.gtkrc-2.0 should specify the 16x16 override I pasted above
[17:03] <mac_v> nemo: check if there is anything in the gconf[panel options] , which forces any size
[17:03] <nemo> oh. and I'm using DarkRoom right now which has no such line
[17:05] <nemo> there is a default size of 24 - however I don't think that would force it since it clearly honours my resizing ... once I smack down start-here
[17:05] <mac_v> nemo: i thought you mentioned that you used a gtkrc ? oh ! so you didnt use it as a theme?
[17:05] <nemo> mac_v: I modified my ~/.gtkrc-2.0 - but I also modified the DarkRoom theme to tighten up scrollbars and such on that theme
[17:05] <nemo> no one else seems to like DarkRoom, so it only impacts me really :)
[17:06] <nemo> the grep above is from .gtkrc-2.0 - that's why I pasted the grep line :)
[17:06] <mac_v> ah , ok
[17:06] <nemo> current top panel size in gconf is set to 19
[17:06] <nemo> I'm pretty sure if I measure it it will actually be 20
[17:06] <nemo> due to other things getting in the way
[17:07] <nemo> btw, another annoying aspect of the start-here thing
[17:07] <nemo> if a user decides to reduce their panel from 24 to 19, they then discover gnome will spawn apps underneath the menu bar
[17:07] <nemo> which it now thinks is only 19px high
[17:08] <mac_v> nemo: i think the best for you is to use the autohide ;)
[17:08] <nemo> hm. it is 19px high
[17:08] <nemo> mac_v: naw. I like seeing my system stats
[17:08] <nemo> I interact w/ top bar too often to want autohide
[17:08] <nemo> actually, I've always found autohides annoying. dunno why
[17:08] <mac_v> nemo: you can force the autohide size to 16px
[17:09] <nemo> maybe 'cause they pop out at me when I least expect it just 'cause I moved my mouse wrong
[17:09] <nemo> hmmm
[17:09] <nemo> so it would only peek out a bit?
[17:09] <mac_v> nemo: so on autohide  16px willstill be displayed
[17:09] <nemo> I might still be able to read my stuff then
[17:09] <nemo> but then it would jitter.
[17:10] <nemo> well. I'll play w/ it. 19px works well enough.  Maybe I'll whip up a script for the poor souls on the ubuntu forum in same situation
[17:10] <mac_v> nemo: set the delay to very long
[17:10] <ckontros> In gconf: /apps/panel/toplevels/top_panel_screen0/auto_hide_size
[17:10]  * nemo tries
[17:10] <mac_v> nemo: set autohide delays it to 1 min or something , that way it wont move easily
[17:10] <nemo> 16, oddly, doesn't look like 16
[17:10] <nemo> everything is chopped in half
[17:10] <nemo> hm
[17:11] <nemo> maybe 8
[17:11] <nemo> interesting. 16 or 8 do exactly the same thing
[17:11] <nemo> ditto 24
[17:11] <nemo> ok. autosize is not working as expected :)
[17:12] <nemo> 1-9 work
[17:12] <nemo> above 9 the values are ignored
[17:13] <nemo> meh. no biggie. 19px is ok as noted.
[17:13] <nemo> I was just more curious about the SVGs and brought this nuisance up in passing :)
[17:14] <mac_v> nemo: that jimmac article mentions why svg is needed in all sizes
[17:15] <nemo> yeah. that makes sense
[17:15] <nemo> for small
[17:15] <nemo> it was the 48 and 64 I didn't understand
[17:15]  * nemo rereads what you said before
[17:16] <nemo> ah. hm
[17:16] <nemo> dunno. doesn't seem like it'd matter much. but hey, whatever :)
[17:16] <nemo> somehow seems you could get away w/ small and large or just small, medium and large, but you're the artists.
[17:17] <mac_v> nemo: well when you are wondering about 19/16 px... why wouldnt 48/64 px matter ;p
[17:17] <mac_v> the icons were added just to make the images more sharper
[17:19] <mac_v> nemo: also humanity-icon-theme is not very big download , it is nearly as big a human icon theme but has more the 4-5 time the number of icons... so size isnt a problem for us either
[17:22]  * mac_v gets back to cursing OOo... #$%#$
[21:12]  * thorwil has ubuntu-one fail at upload and uses dropbox instead