[00:01] JontheEchidna: http://apachelog.blogspot.com/2009/11/kubuntus-project-timelord.html useful enough? [00:01] reading now [00:01] last line gave me chills <3 [00:03] hehe [00:03] JontheEchidna: if you blog tomorrow, please digg a bit into the fun stuff [00:03] like explain what's the name about et all [00:03] motive people to lend a hand [00:04] motivate even [00:04] will do [00:04] ryanakca: thanks a lot for the pic :) [00:05] * apachelogger hugs everyone and goes to bed being afraid that he needs to get up in 6 hours for analysis :S [00:10] ryanakca: perfect pic [00:10] * Nightrose hugs apachelogger good night [01:00] is this Project Timelord thing online somewhere? [01:18] LaserJock: http://www.kubuntu.org/news/timelord [01:41] oy is that official now? [01:45] Official'ish. [01:49] so I don't understand how official it is? [02:03] official enough to be published but really just proposals for UDS [02:04] yuriy: who all wrote it? [02:04] * JontheEchidna just finished deleting 300/900 spam comments from his blog, enough for today [02:04] is the Kubuntu Council behind it? [02:05] LaserJock: JontheEchidna and apachelogger [02:05] there's some pretty dramatic changes in there [02:05] i think... [02:05] apachelogger, ScottK, nixternal, Nightrose and myself were the main brainstormers [02:06] then it was discussed on the mailing list [02:06] and announced today after a month or so of work [02:06] I don't quite understand the translations thing exactly [02:06] don't upstream translations automatically override? [02:07] so if there aren't much for Kubuntu translators doesn't that mean it should be pretty much stock KDE? [02:07] they are stripped from the packages and sent on a trip through rosetta, with varying results [02:07] ah, so they're getting messed up in the stripping, processing, re-packaging [02:08] That trip is not as bad in 10.04 but it still offers another layer of potential failure that is totally unecessary, and takes a good amount of work to keep working [02:08] so will KDE be OK with all these Kubuntu bugs going to them? [02:09] it's been that way until 9.10 actually [02:09] help -> report bugs has always gone to bugs.kde.org until this release [02:09] well [02:09] and the KDE crash handler still goes to KDE [02:09] but the change in bug triaging policy seems more of an issue than the help -> report bugs thing [02:10] basically it'll make less bugs rot and die in LP [02:11] so would you be opening an upstream task and marking the ubuntu task as won't fix? [02:11] the change in bug triaging policy is mostly implemented anyway. I agree with that part -- it would be *nice* to track everything, but really upstream bugs/wishlists just get in the way [02:11] sorry for all the question, I'm just curious about the plan [02:12] Bug triage actually has a formal spec written up, just a second [02:12] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-bug-triage-policy-lucid/ [02:12] well, I guess I'm also interested because it effects Edubuntu too as we ship KDE Edu [02:13] basically, non-SRUable bugs or bugs with low/wishlist importance will not be tracked [02:14] since the point of tracking things at LP is for potential SRUs anyway [02:14] so the intent here is that Kubuntu shrink the scope of its efforts such that it can do the things it does really well [02:14] and then as/if resource grow the scope can grow [02:14] exactly [02:14] use resources as efficiently as possible, and scale when possible [02:15] Edubuntu has tried to do similar, although I don't think very successfully [02:15] but it makes sense if you can pull it off [02:16] a potential problem is that the "scaling down to increase quality" can be seen as becoming stale [02:16] but I would think that Kubuntu has the critical mass to pull it off and I think Kubuntu users appreciate having a high quality distro [02:17] this is why we are also pushing recruitment to increase resources [02:17] so that these don't have to be "forever changes" [02:17] it will be a delicate balance I'm sure [02:23] KDE edu is a pretty nice module to maintain bug-wise, thankfully not too many of the beasties [02:27] yeah [02:28] it's more of the kdepim/kdebase/kdebase-workspace triple-combo we're worried about [02:28] almost 500 bugs from those 3 alone [02:28] mostly upstream bugs that nobody's found the time to upstream [02:29] and even that sounds down about twofold from about a year ago [02:29] I believe when I first started bug triaging kdebase itself had 700 [02:29] that was during the 8.10 dev cycle [02:30] now it's split between kdebase, kdebase-workspace and kdebase-runtime, but still considerably less [03:32] apachelogger, Nightrose: No problem :) [03:32] apachelogger: Yeah, the website needs work. [03:47] I for one welcome our new kubuntu overloards [03:58] so who wrote this massive document? [03:59] JontheEchidna and apachelogger are the primary authors [03:59] Several of use read it over and contributed. [03:59] very nice [04:57] * rgreening was looking for the coles notes [04:58] j/k [05:00] What. Those would've been too long too? [05:18] lol [05:23] I love this projekt, 'Doctor Who' is my favorite === m4v_ is now known as m4v [06:15] hm [06:15] still no chromium builds [06:15] anything we can do besides complain? [06:16] the complain part I did [06:16] I can't help myself, as I'm not a packager [06:16] I can kick arses, if that is of any help [06:16] (it isn't, right?) [06:31] apachelogger: you are my hero [06:32] I mean, again [06:32] we we hug? [06:32] Timelord sounds awesome [06:32] even more so if I can contribute some ideas :) [06:32] like, getting rid of some of the baggage dictated by Canonical [06:33] (PulseAudio...) [06:33] (Apport...) [06:34] and the Shuttteworth could also give you some of his vast amounts of cash [06:34] instead of shipping those silly CDs [06:34] that I like to use as Frisbees [06:36] * markey will support Timelord every way he can [08:01] is there a kubuntu updates changelog somewhere? where I can see which packages were updated and when? [08:02] amik: #ubuntu-devel [08:02] ScottK: mkay, sorry [08:52] apachelogger: Would it be possible to start something like a "Kubuntu Fellowship"? I mean there's a lot to do and several of these things are much easier with some money. I would be glad to be one of the first donators. I think it just have to be clear where this money is going and who manages it. IMO one of the importest things would be to get a clear situation what should be achieved with it and which role does canonical play. (Which [08:52] services they want to do and which not.) [08:58] * emonkey likes the way how goals are specified for the next releases in the TL-announcement. Looks like there's a strategie [08:59] markey: *hug* blog about your POV on timelord please :) [08:59] :) [08:59] well [09:00] apachelogger: first I must be sure about some details of Timelord [09:00] e.g. I would love to see a move to a rolling release scheme (at least a hybrid) [09:00] I need the latest snapshots of many apps [09:00] Chromium, Qt Creator, etc [09:00] Arch offers that [09:01] can't do [09:01] too little resources [09:01] well, a hyrid, at least some PPAs [09:01] hybrid [09:01] well, let me put that right [09:01] right now we do not have enough manpower to maintain that kind of stuff [09:01] ok, maybe we can get it with better promotion :) [09:02] that's one of Timelord's goals anyway [09:02] if, which is one of the targets, more people become active contributors, I do think that more snapshot packages are going to be published (that is however pretty much up to the individual contributor) [09:02] apachelogger: and then, what's Riddell's position on Timelord? [09:02] he's employed by Canonical [09:03] he agrees with most of it, but is unsure about the translations issue [09:03] that puts him in a morally difficult position ;) [09:03] he can't openly criticise Canonical [09:03] in fact, translation might be the most controversal topic of them all [09:03] and Shuttleworth should give you some of his sacks of gold [09:03] man [09:04] imho he's very good with getting labour for free [09:04] or employ me :P [09:04] that's what I mean [09:04] but then you also have to do what he says [09:04] ... [09:04] see the problem? [09:04] well [09:04] we should win euromillions ... :-) [09:05] he'd only want things that improve kubuntu as a product and thus more valuable to canonical I suppose [09:05] so in the end it's a win win eitherway [09:05] another example: that 1024 files limit. we only have to stick without because of some Ubuntu devs [09:05] although Riddell agreed it would make sense to increase the limit [09:06] the Ubuntu guys are clueless on that topic [09:06] s/without/with it [09:06] I type too quickly, too badly [09:07] one thing is becoming problematic: more and more developers migrate to Arch [09:07] distros need the support of devs [09:07] they are a multiplicator [09:07] so I think Timelord should make Kubuntu more attractive for developers too [09:09] agreed [09:11] +1 [10:44] can anyone confirm this one [10:44] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/466935 [10:44] Ubuntu bug 466935 in linux "No Video Output in Karmic with ID 046d:09a1 Logitech, Inc. QuickCam Communicate MP/S5500" [Undecided,New] [10:45] the picture is there but its so dark you cant see anything even with 500 watt flood lamp [10:45] i tested [10:45] -_- [10:47] how can i gdb the printer applet [10:48] just start it with py applet.py ? [10:51] Been thinking a little, maybe we could have a register of people who volunteer to list their hardware, so if a problem turns up, then it can be tagged with that peice of hw and all the people who own that are notified and can test fixes or problems. could be part of your lp profile. (needs more thinking I know, but thats the general idea) [10:53] jussi01: i like [10:54] jussi01: sounds good [10:55] anyone can code gkrellm to use asus atk010 o.O [10:55] hehe [10:56] hrr, who changed lspci output? [10:57] * jussi01 grumbles... [10:57] who coded grub2 [10:57] * ghostcube is getting angry [10:58] i think i will just do a new install and kick it grml [11:27] jussi01: that is the ol ubuntu hardware db + poke feature [11:27] apachelogger: so it exists? link pls? [11:27] google [11:27] all the links youll ever need :P [11:31] http://www.pubbs.net/ubuntu/200911/2746/ [11:31] you see why I find our wiki pages highly inefficient [11:31] you go somehwere, get lost and give up [11:31] and I think that happens about 99% of the time someone wants some information from the wiki [11:33] hey kubuntu devs, i was told by Mamarok i should tell you that the karmic release is the best release i have ever seen. never worked so great for me! thanks for that! [11:33] good boy :) [11:33] !cookie | neverendingo [11:33] neverendingo: Wow! You're such a great helper, you deserve a cookie! [11:33] awooga! [11:34] * apachelogger hugs neverendingo and hands him a cuppa tea [11:34] seriously, awesome === neverendingo_ is now known as neverendingo [11:46] that'll be the archive open [11:48] that was fast [11:48] didn;t it always take like a week or more [11:49] not usually [11:49] just depends how quick doko is with the toolchain [11:49] hmm, but where is lex and his qt [11:49] Sync/merge time? [11:49] yep [11:50] we need a wiki page to track the main packagse [11:50] when is alpha 1 scheduled? [11:50] december [11:50] Also, anybody know why Kubuntu has a different knmap tarball than Debian? [11:50] there's only three alphas this time, and two betas [11:51] ryanakca: because we uploaded first maybe? [11:51] * apachelogger updates kontrolpack [11:51] Riddell: o.O [11:52] Riddell: OK [11:52] kcm-touchpad crashes systemsettings :( [11:52] * jussi01 upgrades apachelogger... [11:52] who is pushing kcm-touchpad into lucid anyway? [11:52] new improved version! :P [11:53] * apachelogger switches to upgrade mode [11:53] now with sleepless nights! :P [11:53] apachelogger: dare I ask what kontrolpack is? [11:53] !info kontrolpack [11:53] kontrolpack (source: kontrolpack): network controller. In component universe, is extra. Version 2.0.3-0ubuntu1 (karmic), package size 420 kB, installed size 784 kB [11:53] Riddell: kind of remote node management thingy thing [11:54] ah yes, I remember, the thingy thing [11:55] oh dear [11:55] -.- [11:55] upstream aint got no clue of tarball making [11:55] I even asked him to script it, so that he could avoid reintroducing stuff I bitched about earlier [11:57] lol [11:57] src/COPYING -> src/copying [11:57] :D [11:57] * apachelogger writes mail === dendrobates is now known as dendro-afk [12:24] hi, just read something about the timelord project [12:25] what can one do to help? [12:27] hmm nah intrepid was best ever [12:27] not karmic :D [12:28] i disagree [12:28] slacker_nl: depends on what bugs you notice [12:29] and if they are bigger than on older revs [12:29] :) [12:29] for youreself [12:29] ghostcube: i ran into issues at intrepid, which i don't have with karmic [12:29] for me its the opposite [12:29] heh [12:29] :) [12:30] think it is different for almost everyone [12:30] doesn't matter, lucid will set the record straight [12:30] the uvc error drives me nuts [12:30] i ned my webcam [12:30] hmm, "Getting KDE 4 ready for LTS - JonathanRiddell" on the UbuntuOpenWeek timetable, wonder what I should talk about [12:30] and i need to use windows now for it [12:31] intresting, I wait for it Riddell :) [12:32] Riddell: hmmm that you are a good looking developer and john not [12:32] :D [12:32] lol [12:32] maybe this would bring an cool discussion [12:32] :D [12:32] :D [12:36] Riddell: just talk about canoeing sure will be more intersting :) [12:38] Riddell: maybe talk about eh timelord project, and what that will mean for lts?? [12:38] that's roughly my plan [12:39] man, stupid daylight savings really messes with one's sleep schedule [12:39] JontheEchidna: i agree [12:39] 22:00 UTC, it means 23:00 local time:/ [12:40] although with wintertime i get an hour more sleep [12:41] apachelogger: btw, I changed the spec approver for https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-bug-triage-policy-lucid to Riddell [12:42] I noticed :D [12:42] should we work suspension of apport into that, or should it go into a more generic lucid-software-development type spec? [12:42] I'm thinking the latter [12:43] yeah, latter I'd say [12:45] Riddell: kaudiocreator went from version 3.5.10 to 1.2.81 ... any suggestions on what to do in the packaging? [12:45] that's what epoch's are for but worth checking with debian to make sure we don't get out of sync [12:46] longish longish mails [12:46] Riddell: the thing is we are already at epoch 4 since it came from poor ol kdemultimedia [12:48] there's always a higher epoch :) [12:49] sure, just saying, should it ever get back into kdemultimedia [12:49] then kdemm also needs to go up to 5 [12:49] that's why we need to check with debian [12:52] although if it's anything like qt they'll be indecisive for a while before doing something different than us :) [12:53] well [12:53] we could still go out of sync [12:54] kac for kde4 is unstable [12:54] so debian will not want to replace the KDE 3 just now [12:54] which means we will have kac with 5:1.x and debian 4:3.5.9 [12:54] now [12:54] whoa, lucid's open [12:54] should kac become part of kdemultimedia again, before debian adopts a version of 5:1.x [12:55] debian will pursue 4:xxxx [12:55] we however will have to increment kdemultimedia to 5:xxxx, getting us out of sync [12:57] JontheEchidna: what else is new :P [12:57] * apachelogger sends JontheEchidna to his blog [12:57] use yer nu wordpress powas wisely! [12:57] meanwhile I try to find something to eat [13:01] * JontheEchidna began composing last night [13:06] blog'd, now on to packaging stuff for lucid [13:10] * Riddell still massaging 4.3.3 for karmic [13:10] but we need a Lucid version of https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/KarmicKDEMerges [13:10] and I think you have a wiki page with a big patches table somewhere [13:22] I do in fact [13:22] https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/LucidPatchReview [13:24] the rosetta comments are obviously contingent on what we end up doing for 10.04, so no need to worry about those for the moment [13:26] tea time! [13:26] * apachelogger brews some white tea [13:26] NCommander: would you fancy upping the build score of some of our packages so we have KDE 4.3.3 ready in time? [13:27] Riddell, sure, PM me the list, I'll bump them after the mobile meeting [13:27] JontheEchidna: kubuntu_04_add_langpack_path can not be dropped even if rosetta support gets kicked [13:27] kubuntu apps would njot get translations via langpacks then [13:28] I'll mark that as keep then [13:28] kubuntu_64_rosetta_translations [13:28] that too [13:28] though it needs a more useful name :P [13:28] * apachelogger aint got no clue what it contains, but it sure needs to stick around [13:30] kubuntu_68_remove_applet_confirmation is defenitely upstreamable, I would suppose it is in KDE's interest that the user can not remove important stuff by accident [13:30] question is just how much work needs to be put into it to make it scale well and all [13:31] * apachelogger starts kteatimer [13:31] teatime even :) [13:34] * apachelogger pours a cup of tea for JontheEchidna, Riddell and himself [13:34] anyone else? [13:35] * JontheEchidna eats an english muffin with his tea [13:35] * apachelogger notes to agree with modestas [13:35] can I have a scone with it? [13:36] all them crappy epochs are hell [13:36] Riddell: don't have any, and poor ol kubotu is still travelling the intarwebs :| [13:37] I think I'll upload this plasma-widget-networkmanagement update into staging [13:37] should fix GSM and VPN support [13:37] \o/ [13:38] VPN [13:38] I was quite surprised, the vpn stuff actually works with what is in karmic [13:38] well, kinda [13:39] it only connects if you provide passwords beforehand and you cant disconnect once connected... but other than that [13:39] bug 446180 [13:39] Launchpad bug 446180 in kdebase-workspace "zz-plasma-remove-network-manager.py crashed with ImportError in ()" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/446180 [13:39] I'm fairly sure that that is a lack of a dependency on python-kde4 [13:40] gnomies who have kde stuff installed but not kubuntu then update, and bam [13:42] * apachelogger never liked kubuntu [13:42] eh [13:42] * apachelogger never liked gnome [13:42] :P [13:42] Oo [13:42] * apachelogger hands markey a cup of tea [13:42] ahem [13:45] has Timelord sparked discussion on the Ubuntu lists too? [13:45] I only read kubuntu-devel [13:45] nope [13:46] Riddell: did you get a chance to review the bug mgmt policy yet? [13:46] * seele doesnt quite understand what timelord is [13:46] is it a vision document? or QA strategy? [13:47] both [13:47] both+more [13:47] a todo possbily [13:47] * apachelogger is not sure how to describe timelord with one word :) [13:47] apachelogger: the "and I want ponies!!!!!" comments on your blog are plain awful [13:48] sebas: but if they want ponies? :D [13:48] WIth one word, probably "vision" fits best [13:49] apachelogger: then they can still go and f themselves [13:49] hehe [13:49] * sebas hates that, you talk about something and everybody shows up with their pet peeves and wants to influence your agenda [13:49] we can give fluffy bunnies once a year, close enough? [13:49] f= fork obviously ;) [13:49] * apachelogger just will turn it aroud next time [13:49] * markey moderates troll comments strictly on his own blogs [13:49] Those aren't trolls [13:50] no mean, if there are some [13:50] haven't checked [13:50] got enough such pony comments to get at least 20 new kubuntu contributors [13:50] it's "we think we need to improve a, b, and c" and they go "but x, y, z is most important (because I think it is)" [13:50] going jogging, bbl [13:50] so I just need to poke them in the eye or something [13:50] With lack of a better place to voice their peeves, they resort to finding the closest place where they can do so. (In most cases being blogs) [13:50] there's a better place [13:51] well it has to be easy too. they are lazy :D [13:51] everybody's an armchair free software expert, but nobody wants to leave the armchair [13:51] imo [13:52] JontheEchidna: I think we should get started on the support policy? [13:53] JontheEchidna: as long as people don't pitch in, I care very little what they want [13:53] sebas: same here :) [13:54] I want enough myself to warrant having 72hour-days [13:54] apachelogger: I was thinking that the upstream communications are more pressing, now that people know that we should be doing it [13:54] + sleep, food and other overhead like social life [13:55] * apachelogger hugs sebas [13:55] enough upstream communication? :P [13:55] lol [13:55] that's not called collaboration :) [13:55] (still appreciated :P) [13:57] * apachelogger thinks that Hydrogen might get jealous if apachelogger were to collaborate with someone else :P [13:59] "Authorization Approved" yay! [13:59] "Your travel authorization has been approved and you are authorized to travel to the United States " Dallas here I come [14:00] <\sh> Meeting with J.R. Ewing ,-) [14:01] hi there [14:01] I just heard about Timelord [14:01] I want in [14:02] I know some debian packaging [14:02] python [14:02] and PyQT [14:02] What do you think I can do to help? [14:02] (I'm already reading the full spec) [14:04] that was fast :) [14:06] falktx: if you're up to it, software-properties (PyQt) needs a bit of loving (bug 102773, bug 116445) [14:06] Launchpad bug 102773 in software-properties "Translations (i18n) broken in software-properties-kde" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/102773 [14:06] Launchpad bug 116445 in software-properties "[kde] software-properties-kde does not check if apt lines are valid" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/116445 [14:06] I want also join, I translated the Kubuntu Documentation for Karmic, and want to contribute more [14:06] they fall into the "embarassingly old" category there ;-) [14:07] * Riddell hugs ulysses__ and falktx [14:07] ulysses__: are you any good at writing docs? there's plenty that need Kubuntu-ified [14:08] I don't speak english very good, but I do everything I can [14:08] I am the coordinator of hungarian community documentation team o.O [14:08] your written english is better than a lot of what I see from native speakers on the internet [14:08] thanks [14:09] ulysses__: for example this page could do with a Kubuntu version being made https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GraphicalInstall [14:09] sometimes I write news to the hungarian LoCo site about Kubuntu (now working on Project Timelord translation) [14:09] i'll look into software-properties [14:09] anybody up for a revu of my new package? http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/details.py?upid=6970 [14:10] i'm waiting too for a revu, be patient [14:11] :) [14:11] i'll use my PPA for software-properties changes [14:11] https://launchpad.net/~falk-t-j/+archive/ppa/ [14:11] Riddell: OK, I'll write it [14:11] falktx: what package are you currrently waiting for a revu for? [14:13] qtsixa [14:13] oh, that sixaxis manager [14:13] JontheEchidna: there is some other crap in the admin dir [14:13] check some old kde3 package form me [14:14] IIRC there is some 100% free part, more free than GPL or something [14:14] ah, copyrights... [14:14] every packager's favorite part [14:14] JontheEchidna: complete copy of lgpl is missing [14:14] jontheEchidna - can you revu that? [14:14] falktx: yeah [14:15] thanks [14:15] why does software-properties translations works for me? [14:15] I don't see any language bug [14:16] JontheEchidna: Tomas Mecir also holds a considerable amount of copyright [14:17] apachelogger: I have him in debian/copyright, I thought [14:17] Upstream Author: Tomas Mecir [14:17] that does not replace a copyright statement :P [14:17] oh, whoops [14:18] I never replaced Marcel Hasler with him [14:18] falktx: what revu are you waiting on? [14:19] apachelogger: qtsixa [14:19] no clue what that is :D [14:19] Sixaxis Joystick Manager [14:20] right [14:20] allows to connect sixaxis wirelessly [14:20]