[00:11] <doctormo> I'd like to appologise to everyone who came to the marketing meeting, I wasn't here to call it to order.
[13:00] <NCommander> #startmeeting
[13:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 07:00. The chair is NCommander.
[13:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[13:01] <NCommander> ogra, plars davidm GrueMaster JamieBennett dyfet StevenK lool, ping
[13:01] <JamieBennett> here
[13:01] <StevenK> Made it! \o/
[13:02]  * ogra is here
[13:02] <plars> hola
[13:02] <ogra> no persia
[13:02] <NCommander> StevenK, <MootBot> Meeting started at 07:00. The chair is NCommander. - not quite
[13:02] <NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091027
[13:02] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091027
[13:02] <NCommander> er
[13:02] <StevenK> Haha
[13:02] <NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091103
[13:02] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091103
[13:03] <StevenK> It's the 4th here
[13:03] <NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/LucidSpecifications
[13:03] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/LucidSpecifications
[13:03] <ogra> pfft
[13:03] <NCommander> StevenK, time is relative
[13:03] <ogra> NCommander, action items ?
[13:03] <NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
[13:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
[13:03] <NCommander> [topic] ogra to file a bug for dhclient not working properly with the FEC driver in d-i
[13:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to file a bug for dhclient not working properly with the FEC driver in d-i
[13:04]  * ogra reopened bug 356975
[13:04] <NCommander> ogra, which presumably was refixed :-)
[13:04] <NCommander> [topic] dyfet to test recent banshee release and report to the banshee bug
[13:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  dyfet to test recent banshee release and report to the banshee bug
[13:04] <ogra> NCommander, it was never fixed
[13:04] <dyfet`> That was done :)
[13:04] <NCommander> ogra, it says Fix released
[13:05] <ogra> NCommander, no idea why bjf closed it
[13:05] <dyfet`> (I mean the task)
[13:05] <ogra> right
[13:05] <NCommander> ogra, oh
[13:05] <ogra> he just closed it when the release was done
[13:05] <ogra> since nobody (including myself) could reproduce it back then
[13:05] <NCommander> ogra, *sigh*, we probably should track that for lucid
[13:05] <ogra> i tracked it for linux-fsl-imx51 generally for now
[13:05] <dyfet`> ogra: plars reproduced my version of the bug, I could never reproduce yours :)
[13:06] <NCommander> ogra, so no action item needed, right?
[13:06] <ogra> dyfet`, different one
[13:06] <plars> dyfet`: this is the banshee bug?
[13:06] <ogra> NCommander, nope
[13:06] <NCommander> [topic] lool and NCommander to discuss u-boot upgrades off-channel and report back
[13:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  lool and NCommander to discuss u-boot upgrades off-channel and report back
[13:06] <ogra> NCommander, i could add more debugging stuff, but given we'll default to alternate that will happen anyway during lucid
[13:07] <NCommander> ogra, we're going to alternates for lucid?
[13:07] <NCommander> Or just making sure they work.
[13:07] <StevenK> That is/should be a spec
[13:07] <ogra> see the specs
[13:07] <ogra> i added the list from the internal wiki to the MobileTeam/LucidSpecifications wikipage btw
[13:07] <NCommander> ogra, right, sorry. I'm not caffinated yet
[13:07] <ogra> in the "high prio specs" area
[13:08] <NCommander> I don't think we need UNR/UMR status review since we just released
[13:08] <NCommander> [topic] Specification Review
[13:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  Specification Review
[13:08] <ogra> no, none of these
[13:08] <ogra> so ...
[13:08] <ogra> i sent that mail
[13:08] <NCommander> I think the easiest way is to go right down the list
[13:09] <ogra> did everyone make a pick of a favorite spec from the high prio list ?
[13:09] <JamieBennett> ogra: yup
[13:09] <dyfet> Yes
[13:09] <NCommander> yeah
[13:09] <ogra> cool :)
[13:09] <ogra> so lets drop them in the channel one by one ...
[13:09] <NCommander> [topic] # ARM: default to alternate image, make desktop image optional
[13:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  # ARM: default to alternate image, make desktop image optional
[13:10] <NCommander> I'd like to take this one if no one objections
[13:10] <ogra> fine with me, add your name to it on the wikipage
[13:10] <NCommander> ogra, actually, this should be broken up per-SoC
[13:10] <NCommander> I have no imx51 hardware
[13:10] <ogra> you will get some
[13:10] <NCommander> Oh
[13:10] <NCommander> problem solved
[13:10] <ogra> we'll need to re-shuffle anyway ...
[13:11] <StevenK> Hm. My pet spec isn't in the high prio list
[13:11] <ogra> and we'll get B3.0 (hopefully)
[13:11] <NCommander> ogra, I'll hold a lock open on the wiki and add the names as we go spec to spec
[13:11] <NCommander> [topic] ARM: 2D launcher for UNR
[13:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM: 2D launcher for UNR
[13:11] <ogra> StevenK, well, you are supposed to take at least one from the high prio list
[13:11] <ogra> i'm fine taking the 2D launcher if nobody else wants it
[13:11] <JamieBennett> I already have a spec but I wouldn't mind looking at the 2D stuff
[13:11] <JamieBennett> go ogra
[13:11] <ogra> JamieBennett, feel feree
[13:12] <StevenK> ogra: It's high prio, it isn't on the list. It needs to be
[13:12] <JamieBennett> lol
[13:12] <ogra> *free even :)
[13:12] <NCommander> StevenK, which one do you want me to bump
[13:12] <JamieBennett> ogra: OK, I'll take 2D and Device Tree's then
[13:12] <StevenK> NCommander: My name for it is 'mobile-lucid-une'; Renaming UNR to UNE
[13:12] <ogra> JamieBennett, cool ... though device tree will mostly live at the kernel team
[13:12] <ogra> JamieBennett, on our side it will be more testing than development work i suspect
[13:12] <JamieBennett> ogra: that's what I thought hence my backup spec ;)
[13:13] <ogra> great
[13:13] <ogra> add your name to them
[13:13] <NCommander> ogra, I'll be adding all the names. Just easier if one person does it
[13:13] <NCommander> StevenK, added, and put your name on it
[13:13] <ogra> ok
[13:13] <StevenK> NCommander: Okay
[13:13] <StevenK> *Now* I have a high prio spec :-)
[13:13] <ogra> heh
[13:13] <NCommander> [topic] ARM: cut down UNR seed
[13:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM: cut down UNR seed
[13:13] <dyfet> Will I need to fight Paul in the Arena of death for that one? ;)    I see the one below as a related subset of this, too...
[13:14] <NCommander> We're doing ARM UNR for lucid?
[13:14] <StevenK> NCommander: I'll take that one
[13:14] <ogra> NCommander, thats the plan ... thus the 2D launcher
[13:14] <NCommander> [topic] ARM: lightweight webkit based browser
[13:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM: lightweight webkit based browser
[13:14]  * NCommander knows a few browsers like that already exist ...
[13:14] <StevenK> I'm going to have to fiddle with seeds a lot due to the other 2 specs I'm writing, so
[13:14] <plars> dyfet: nope, I just transposed them into lp for the purposes of getting them over, they are yours
[13:14] <ogra> i would propose that one to take as a team spec
[13:14] <NCommander> epiphany and midori come to mind
[13:14] <ogra> right
[13:15] <NCommander> Who wants it?
[13:15] <ogra> each of us should use a different browser for a month
[13:15] <StevenK> *On ARM*
[13:15] <plars> NCommander dyfet has expressed interest
[13:15] <ogra> i'll take the lead on it but would like to see team participation
[13:15] <NCommander> I'll assign it to dyfet
[13:15] <ogra> ok, give it to dyfet
[13:15] <NCommander> [topic] ARM: Per SoC Power management improvements
[13:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM: Per SoC Power management improvements
[13:15] <ogra> thats nasty
[13:15] <NCommander> This one is probably going to live mostly on the kernel side of things
[13:15] <ogra> and rather kernel team stuff
[13:15] <NCommander> someone needs to track this, on a per SoC basis
[13:16] <ogra> but we're supposed to do the paperwork i think
[13:16] <NCommander> Since quite a bit of the power stuff isn't going to carry over
[13:16] <ogra> carry over ?
[13:16] <ogra> we didnt even remotely look into it yet :)
[13:16] <NCommander> ogra, er, its SoC specific, like low power modes
[13:16] <NCommander> I think
[13:16] <ogra> right
[13:16] <NCommander> */two cents*
[13:16] <ogra> but we didnt do anything specific for PM ever
[13:17] <ogra> apart from upstream kernel stuff per SoC
[13:17] <NCommander> ogra, we've yet to have ARM hardware that actually has a battery for anything aside the RTC
[13:17] <NCommander> Actually
[13:17] <ogra> indeed
[13:17] <ogra> still powertop and friends work fine on babbage for example
[13:17] <NCommander> ogra, we need a sleep/hibrenate ARM spec :-/
[13:17] <ogra> ++
[13:17] <ogra> please add it
[13:17] <NCommander> ogra, I think this spec should be assigned to whoever heads an SoC
[13:17] <NCommander> And spit up apporiately
[13:18] <ogra> ok, since nobody steps up i'll take the PM one
[13:18] <NCommander> [topic] ARM: Sleep/hibernation support and testing
[13:18] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM: Sleep/hibernation support and testing
[13:18] <StevenK> Haha, 'spit up'
[13:18] <StevenK> *Split*
[13:18] <ogra> i'm fine taking that too if nobody else wants ... the testing part should be split off to plars or GrueMaster
[13:19] <NCommander> StevenK, er, split :-P
[13:19] <NCommander> [topic] ARM: Make gcc default to ARMv7 and Thumb2
[13:19] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM: Make gcc default to ARMv7 and Thumb2
[13:19] <plars> ogra: it'll be covered in testing, certainly
[13:19] <NCommander> This one kinda tricky
[13:19] <StevenK> Wasn't that done already?
[13:19] <NCommander> StevenK, we went to ARMv6+VFP
[13:20] <ogra> who agreed on that one even ?
[13:20] <NCommander> I worry if we go to ARMv7 and Thumb2, we'll have a ton of breakage in a LTS cycle
[13:20] <ogra> yep, same here
[13:20] <StevenK> Then spec it :-)
[13:20] <ogra> but i surely was discussed in advance
[13:20] <StevenK> Were you?
[13:20]  * StevenK cackles
[13:20]  * ogra wasnt :P
[13:21] <NCommander> who wants this one?
[13:21] <NCommander> (are we assigning specs for implementation, or just who's actually drafting one)
[13:21] <NCommander> (just for clarification)
[13:21] <ogra> ownership until UDS for now
[13:21] <NCommander> This one is a priority spec
[13:21] <ogra> we can discuss implementation later
[13:22] <NCommander> if we're going to make the change, we want to do this BEFORE the toolchain uploads
[13:22] <StevenK> Too late
[13:22] <ogra> yeah
[13:22] <NCommander> d'oh
[13:22] <ogra> and we want to be able to discuss it
[13:22] <ogra> so it wont be implemented before UDS anyway
[13:22] <ogra> well, give it to me for now
[13:23] <NCommander> [topic] UNR: Add support for alternate installer
[13:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  UNR: Add support for alternate installer
[13:23] <ogra> pfft
[13:23] <NCommander> I won't mind taking this one if StevenK doesn't want it
[13:23]  * NCommander knows StevenK likes UNR specs
[13:23] <ogra> who wants that anyway :P
[13:23] <StevenK> I do want it
[13:23] <ogra> alternate ?
[13:23] <ogra> why ?
[13:23] <NCommander> StevenK, don't we have alternates indirectly via netboot though?
[13:23]  * ogra thinks its a step backwards 
[13:24] <StevenK> I'm not sure it buys it much, but I'm happy to entertain it long enough to talk about it
[13:24] <ogra> NCommander, we have only-ubiquity for sure
[13:24] <StevenK> s/it much/us much/
[13:24]  * NCommander vaguely remembers this conversation at Karmic UDS
[13:24]  * ogra finds it massively silly
[13:24] <NCommander> ogra, UNR exists as a task in archive, and shows up in the netboot installer. I don' tknow if it works
[13:24] <StevenK> Yes, we shouted you down there too
[13:24] <NCommander> [topic] UNR: Include new DX team enhancements
[13:24] <ogra> NCommander, yes, still, alternate takes twice the time to install for no gain at all
[13:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  UNR: Include new DX team enhancements
[13:25]  * ogra guesses thats a clear StevenK spec
[13:25] <NCommander> ogra, well, more advanced partitioning, but in general, I agree.
[13:25] <StevenK> ogra: Full crypted disks for UNR?
[13:25] <NCommander> I think we want alternates
[13:25] <NCommander> but they're not 100% needed IMHO
[13:25]  * ogra doesnt
[13:25] <ogra> and finds it a silly decision ... but we'll discuss it
[13:25] <NCommander> [topic] UNR: cut down non ARM UNR seed
[13:25] <MootBot> New Topic:  UNR: cut down non ARM UNR seed
[13:25] <NCommander> I think that's a StevenK spec
[13:25] <StevenK> Yeah
[13:26] <ogra> sounds like
[13:26] <StevenK> I'll drive it
[13:26] <StevenK> Probably implement it too
[13:26] <NCommander> Ok, down to the brainstorm specs
[13:26] <dyfet> It should be coordinated with the arm one to some level :)
[13:26] <ogra> yes
[13:26] <NCommander> [topic] replace the maximus blacklist(s) with proper info on the affected windows
[13:26] <MootBot> New Topic:  replace the maximus blacklist(s) with proper info on the affected windows
[13:26] <StevenK> I like seed specs, I work on them for 2 days and then mark them all Implemented
[13:26]  * NCommander has no idea what this one is about.
[13:26] <ogra> but the arm desktop on UNR might end up totally different
[13:27] <StevenK> NCommander: The maximus blacklist is a list of windows that shouldn't be maximised
[13:27] <NCommander> No one for this spec?
[13:27] <NCommander> Oh
[13:27] <NCommander> StevenK, so this one yours?
[13:27] <NCommander> (do we want it for lucid?)
[13:28] <StevenK> I actually vote persia, in seriousness
[13:28] <NCommander> StevenK, priority?
[13:28] <ogra> sounds good
[13:28] <StevenK> low/medium
[13:28]  * NCommander thinks we should market priority/desirability for brainstorm specs
[13:28] <StevenK> Nice to have
[13:28] <ogra> how much upstream work is involved ?
[13:28] <ogra> i guess neil needs to hack a bit on it, no ?
[13:28] <NCommander> [topic] reimplement desktop-switcher
[13:28] <MootBot> New Topic:  reimplement desktop-switcher
[13:28] <StevenK> That's a njpatel question
[13:29] <ogra> yup
[13:29] <StevenK> NCommander: I have a high-prio spec about that: mobile-lucid-netbook-sessions
[13:29] <plars> he's well aware of it, but we should point out the blueprint to him
[13:29] <ogra> he'll be at UDS
[13:29] <NCommander> StevenK, How do I write it?
[13:29] <NCommander> UNR: Netboot Sessions or?
[13:29] <ogra> we can stack them on his lap
[13:30] <ogra> Netbook Session Switching
[13:30] <ogra> NCommander, ^^^
[13:30] <StevenK> NCommander: UNE: Using sessions to switch session types
[13:30] <ogra> (and not netboot :P )
[13:30] <StevenK> NCommander just has netboot on the brain
[13:30] <ogra> yeah
[13:30] <NCommander> StevenK, added and marked to you
[13:31]  * StevenK plugs NCommander into a tftp server, and forces him to netboot Netware 3.5
[13:31] <StevenK> Now let's see you do useful work!
[13:31] <ogra> heh
[13:31] <StevenK> No TCP/IP for you
[13:31]  * NCommander writes a NLM to load a linux kernel into kernel space and jumps into it
[13:31]  * plars has done much netware administration :)
[13:31] <StevenK> plars: Poor guy
[13:31]  * NCommander knows what netware is.
[13:31] <NCommander> That's enough for me
[13:31] <StevenK> plars: I've done a little, shall we drink beer and cry at UDS?
[13:31] <plars> heh
[13:32] <StevenK> I've done worse
[13:32] <StevenK> Solaris administration
[13:32] <StevenK> No, I lie. IRIX!
[13:32]  * ogra loves IRIX
[13:32] <StevenK> Heathen!
[13:32] <NCommander> IRIX is fun
[13:32] <NCommander> csh FTW
[13:32] <NCommander> But seriously folks
[13:32] <StevenK> IRIX makes me cry
[13:32] <ogra> i still have an indigo2 sitting behind me
[13:33] <NCommander> Who's getting this spec, or am I leaving it unassigned and unloved
[13:33] <StevenK> Which spec? :-)
[13:33]  * StevenK has lost track
[13:33] <NCommander> StevenK, reimplement desktop-switcher
[13:33] <ogra> NCommander, StevenK said he already has one for it
[13:33] <NCommander> oh
[13:33] <NCommander> Missed that
[13:34] <StevenK> NCommander: Oh, that should be ignored in favour of mobile-lucid-netbook-sessions
[13:34] <NCommander> Oh
[13:34]  * NCommander kicks the spec off the list
[13:34] <NCommander> [topic] dpkg stripping doc/man etc.
[13:34] <MootBot> New Topic:  dpkg stripping doc/man etc.
[13:34]  * NCommander shivers
[13:34] <dyfet> I found this one interesting
[13:34] <ogra> i think thats from lools list
[13:34] <NCommander> This is what Emdebian Crush does
[13:34] <StevenK> Twitch
[13:35] <NCommander> I'll assign this to lool, and shove it under low
[13:35] <StevenK> I'm not touching that one with a ... a very long thing
[13:35] <NCommander> [topic] UEFI bootloader based on Apple's Cortex A8/A9 work
[13:35] <MootBot> New Topic:  UEFI bootloader based on Apple's Cortex A8/A9 work
[13:35] <NCommander> this is a good thing
[13:35] <ogra> if you say so
[13:35] <JamieBennett> sounds interesting
[13:36] <NCommander> ogra, this is a unifed boot solution for ARM
[13:36] <ogra> NCommander, only if you convince the vendors :P
[13:36] <NCommander> ogra, basically one firmware, one bootloader, one kernel
[13:36] <NCommander> I'll take this one, I'll mark it medium for now
[13:36]  * ogra thinks softbootloader has more chances to make lucid
[13:36] <NCommander> [topic] cross-compilers
[13:36] <MootBot> New Topic:  cross-compilers
[13:37] <NCommander> Are we seriously considering cross-compilers in archive?
[13:37] <ogra> not me
[13:37] <dyfet> What is the intent of this one?
[13:37] <ogra> ask lool
[13:37] <ogra> its from his list iirc
[13:37] <dyfet> NCommander: I was wondering the same
[13:37]  * NCommander puts it as Wishlist, and puts it in lool
[13:37] <NCommander> *as
[13:38] <NCommander> [topic] move debian-cd for imx51 completely to redboot-tools
[13:38] <MootBot> New Topic:  move debian-cd for imx51 completely to redboot-tools
[13:38] <NCommander> That's a ogra spec if I ever saw one.
[13:38] <ogra> yep
[13:38] <ogra> mine
[13:38] <NCommander> ogra, medium ok?
[13:38]  * ogra grabs greedy
[13:38] <ogra> yup
[13:39] <NCommander> [topic] Application changes for UNR
[13:39] <MootBot> New Topic:  Application changes for UNR
[13:39] <StevenK> We already have cross-compiliers in the archive
[13:39] <StevenK> Me
[13:39]  * NCommander feels like he's seen this spec before
[13:39] <dyfet> Is that not a dup?
[13:39] <StevenK> Yeah, we've already deva'd this vu
[13:39] <ogra> really ?
[13:39] <StevenK> Anyway, it needs more discussion
[13:39] <ogra> i thought its about screen resolution etc
[13:39] <NCommander> [topic] ARM Softbootloader
[13:39] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Softbootloader
[13:39]  * NCommander coughs
[13:39] <StevenK> So it's a new Lucid spec
[13:39] <ogra> right
[13:39] <NCommander> This one is mine
[13:39] <StevenK> And it isn't about screen res
[13:39]  * NCommander sticks it under wishlist, and moves on
[13:40] <NCommander> [topic]  clean up d-cd armel backends to remove a ton of code duplication between imx51 and dove
[13:40] <MootBot> New Topic:   clean up d-cd armel backends to remove a ton of code duplication between imx51 and dove
[13:40] <ogra> NCommander, make it medium
[13:40] <NCommander> I'd like this one personally
[13:40] <ogra> NCommander, we likely get new SoCs that actually need softboot loader
[13:40] <NCommander> ogra, *groan*
[13:41] <ogra> so make it more than wishlist
[13:41] <NCommander> ogra, medium then
[13:41] <ogra> yup
[13:41] <NCommander> And I'll shoot it dead if we don't need it
[13:41] <njpatel> StevenK: Sorry, was away
[13:41] <NCommander> ARM Softbootloader is the Duke Nukem Forever of Ubuntu specs.
[13:41] <StevenK> NCommander: No, UNR Applications is
[13:41] <ogra> oh wonderful vaporware
[13:41] <StevenK> We have talked about MID/UNR Applications at every UDS that I've attended
[13:42] <NCommander> Anyway
[13:42] <StevenK> njpatel: Spec talking about maximus blacklist, you're aware of it?
[13:42] <njpatel> StevenK: nope
[13:42] <NCommander> Any objections to me taking the d-cd armel backend refactoring?
[13:42] <StevenK> njpatel: You are now :-P
[13:42] <ogra> nope
[13:42] <njpatel> StevenK: indeed :)
[13:42] <NCommander> StevenK, I nicked that one in favor the session one
[13:42] <StevenK> NCommander: Who will sponsor your work?
[13:43] <NCommander> StevenK, ogra or lool, as both did work with me in writing the dove backend
[13:43] <ogra> StevenK, debian-cd you mean ?
[13:43] <ogra> StevenK, that would be me or lool ...
[13:43] <StevenK> NCommander: I think the maximus blacklist spec warrants some discussion
[13:43] <StevenK> Fair enough
[13:43] <NCommander> yea(its not TOO bad ATM, but if we keep adding SoCs, d-cd is going to become sentient and kill us in our sleeps)
[13:43] <StevenK> Going to become? Hell, it is
[13:43]  * ogra doesnt see so much duplication yet ... but yeah
[13:44] <NCommander> ogra, the fact of the matter is the image creation bits for ARM are ... fugly at best
[13:44] <JamieBennett> NCommander: Can I take the "UEFI bootloader based on Apple's Cortex A8/A9 work" off you, I'm feeling left out :)
[13:44] <NCommander> VFAT images are a hack with d-cd ATM
[13:44] <NCommander> JamieBennett, sure
[13:44] <ogra> NCommander, well, there is a spec for ext2/3 vs vfat ;)
[13:44] <StevenK> Poor JamieBennett, it's quick and the un-fed around here
[13:44] <NCommander> ogra, yeah, I tossed that idea around with lool
[13:44]  * JamieBennett sits here with his 3 specs
[13:45] <NCommander> [topic] stacked squashfs builds for live images (separate rootfs and kernel/modules completely)
[13:45] <MootBot> New Topic:  stacked squashfs builds for live images (separate rootfs and kernel/modules completely)
[13:45]  * NCommander looks at ogra
[13:45] <ogra> mine !
[13:45] <NCommander> ogra, priority?
[13:45] <ogra> but pointless if we switch to alternate :(
[13:45] <ogra> high i'd have said
[13:45] <ogra> but not sure anymore
[13:45] <ogra> make it medium
[13:46] <NCommander> [topic] hardware based system recovery
[13:46] <MootBot> New Topic:  hardware based system recovery
[13:46] <ogra> no idea what that means
[13:46] <NCommander> This one is mine, and this is another Duke Nukem Forever spec
[13:46] <ogra> or who added it
[13:46] <NCommander> ogra, I dunno, I think someone edited that line
[13:46] <ogra> ah
[13:46] <NCommander> Basically, this is having the installer install itself to the installation media so you can reinstall without the original disk
[13:47] <ogra> if you have the diskspace
[13:47] <NCommander> ogra, indeed
[13:47] <NCommander> Its probably worthwhile to at least consider it
[13:47] <ogra> call it recovery partition then ... thats what it is ;)
[13:47] <NCommander> ogra, it won't get implemented if I do that. If I give it a new name, it might get implemented ;-)
[13:47] <dyfet> OEM's may like it...
[13:48] <JamieBennett> ogra: Ah now I understand :)
[13:48] <NCommander> [topic]  * casper cleanup/speedup
[13:48] <MootBot> New Topic:   * casper cleanup/speedup
[13:48]  * ogra looks at JamieBennett 
[13:48]  * NCommander looks at JamieBennett 
[13:48]  * JamieBennett puts his hand up slowly
[13:48] <ogra> heh
[13:49]  * NCommander prays for mercy on JamieBennett's soul
[13:49] <ogra> its not that hard
[13:49] <NCommander> ogra, debugging casper isn't. Making it run fast probably will be
[13:49] <ogra> and mainly i think its ok for lucid to first simply identify the slow bits
[13:49] <NCommander> [topic] ext2 images versus vfat
[13:49] <MootBot> New Topic:  ext2 images versus vfat
[13:49]  * NCommander waves
[13:49] <ogra> take it
[13:50] <ogra> and make that ext3
[13:50] <ogra> ext2 is to fragile
[13:50] <StevenK> I'd make a joke, but then I might get more specs
[13:50] <NCommander> ogra, its ext2 for dove :-/
[13:50] <NCommander> StevenK, oh, so you want this spec?
[13:50] <StevenK> NCommander: No
[13:50] <ogra> NCommander, it needs to be ext3
[13:50] <NCommander> [topic] rootstock gui
[13:50] <MootBot> New Topic:  rootstock gui
[13:50] <NCommander> Er
[13:50] <ogra> else you end up with inconsistent FS
[13:50] <NCommander> didn't this one get implemented?
[13:50] <ogra> no gui
[13:50] <ogra> its mine
[13:51] <NCommander> [topic]  multiarch execution environment with qemu static
[13:51] <MootBot> New Topic:   multiarch execution environment with qemu static
[13:51]  * NCommander looks at ogra 
[13:51] <ogra> give it to me as low prio
[13:51] <NCommander> [topic]  * Moblin Remix Reloaded
[13:51] <MootBot> New Topic:   * Moblin Remix Reloaded
[13:51] <dyfet> I may talk with you a bit on that one, ogra
[13:52] <NCommander> Are we doing Moblin for another cycle?
[13:52] <ogra> dyfet, if you are intrested, feel free to take it
[13:52] <StevenK> We should discuss it
[13:52] <ogra> NCommander, no idea yet
[13:52] <dyfet> ogra: ok
[13:52]  * NCommander assigns to StevenK
[13:52] <StevenK> No, persia
[13:52] <StevenK> (Seriously)
[13:52] <plars> and he's not here to defend himself, even better
[13:53] <NCommander> [topic]  * Netbook Application changes
[13:53] <MootBot> New Topic:   * Netbook Application changes
[13:53] <NCommander> Hrm
[13:53] <ogra> dyfet, note that this one is about adding other arches similar to qemu-static-armel
[13:53] <NCommander> I think that's a dupe
[13:53] <ogra> yeah
[13:53] <dyfet> ogra: that is what I assumed
[13:53] <NCommander> [topic] Optimizations for SSD netbooks
[13:53] <StevenK> Yeah, dupe
[13:53] <MootBot> New Topic:  Optimizations for SSD netbooks
[13:53] <plars> that one belongs to GrueMaster, right?
[13:53] <NCommander> Who wants that one
[13:53] <plars> :)
[13:53] <dyfet> I suggested this one...
[13:53] <dyfet> But if GrueMaster wants it...
[13:53] <NCommander> That's all the brainstorm specs
[13:53]  * ogra hapily offers test cycles on his new SSD :)
[13:53] <plars> dyfet: I was talking about the previous
[13:53] <NCommander> ogra, I envy!
[13:54]  * JamieBennett has a 8GB ssd :)
[13:54]  * ogra ordered a 128G one
[13:54] <JamieBennett> mmmmm
[13:54]  * NCommander wonders if we should bring up the rebuildder spec
[13:54]  * StevenK has a 2G SSD in his new firewall
[13:54] <NCommander> That was one that didn't go anywhere for karmic
[13:54] <ogra> 230MB/s read ... 200MB/s write :)
[13:54] <NCommander> and we have people who want to rebuild Ubuntu
[13:54] <NCommander> People: FOCUS!
[13:54] <GrueMaster> sorry I'm late.  DST.
[13:54] <StevenK> Shiny, shiny shoes ...
[13:54] <NCommander> GrueMaster, we assigned all the specs to you. Have fun :_)
[13:54] <NCommander> *:-)
[13:55] <StevenK> BWAHAHAHA
[13:55] <StevenK> NCommander wins
[13:55] <ogra> heh
[13:55] <NCommander> Things I never thought StevenK would say: <StevenK> NCommander wins
[13:55]  * StevenK takes it back
[13:55] <NCommander> StevenK, sorry, its already on the IRC Log ;-)
[13:56] <StevenK> Damn it, my list of people to kill grows
[13:56] <NCommander> Anyway, anyone want to suggest any more specs
[13:56] <StevenK> NCommander: At the risk of incuring ogra's wrath: Fixing touchscreens
[13:56] <ogra> StevenK, moved to desktop ;)
[13:56] <NCommander> ogra wins.
[13:56] <ogra> let them get the hard time :P
[13:57] <StevenK> Haha
[13:57] <StevenK> You're going to sit in that spec and throw rocks, aren't you?
[13:57] <dyfet> NCommander: there is LXDE as a spec, but it is informational/tracking the community effort
[13:57] <NCommander> Actually, I have an information spec
[13:57] <ogra> StevenK, definately :P
[13:57] <NCommander> Two actually
[13:57] <StevenK> ogra: You bad man :-)
[13:57] <NCommander> One for ARM kernel versions
[13:57]  * ogra dings a bell ... 
[13:57] <ogra> 3 minutes left
[13:57] <NCommander> And one for what we're doing for ARM w.r.t. to LTS
[13:57] <NCommander> (if anything)
[13:57] <StevenK> Time Gentleman, Please
[13:57] <NCommander> ogra, we'll move into #ubuntu-mobile
[13:57] <NCommander> Who wants them?
[13:58] <StevenK> (10 geek points whoever gets the reference)
[13:58]  * StevenK looks at JamieBennett 
[13:58] <ogra> one important note ... please have your specs in LP *bafore* the friday call !!!
[13:58] <ogra> *before even
[13:58] <JamieBennett> PUB time :)
[13:58] <ogra> its fine if they are empty apart from a description and an empty wikipage
[13:59]  * NCommander adds his specs to the page
[13:59] <StevenK> JamieBennett: :-D
[13:59] <ogra> but david needs the reference for the schedule
[13:59] <ogra> NCommander, wrap up ?
[13:59] <NCommander> [topic] ABO
[13:59] <MootBot> New Topic:  ABO
[13:59] <NCommander> er
[13:59] <NCommander> [topic] AOB
[13:59] <MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
[13:59]  * NCommander fails
[14:00]  * ogra grins
[14:00] <StevenK> I vote we rename "Any Other Business" ABO
[14:00] <ogra> seems there is "Ubuntu Liquid Remix" on the agenda for AOB
[14:00] <ogra> what is it ?
[14:00] <StevenK> MID
[14:01] <StevenK> Effectively
[14:01] <NCommander> [vote] Rename "Any Other Business" to ABO
[14:01] <MootBot> Please vote on:  Rename "Any Other Business" to ABO.
[14:01] <MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
[14:01] <MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
[14:01] <StevenK> Haha!
[14:01] <mhall119|work> liquid remix?
[14:01] <StevenK> +1
[14:01] <MootBot> +1 received from StevenK. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
[14:01] <NCommander> +1
[14:01] <MootBot> +1 received from NCommander. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
[14:01] <ogra> +0
[14:01] <MootBot> Abstention received from ogra. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
[14:01] <plars> -1
[14:01] <MootBot> -1 received from plars. 2 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
[14:01] <ogra> come on
[14:01] <JamieBennett> +0
[14:01] <GrueMaster> -1
[14:01] <MootBot> Abstention received from JamieBennett. 2 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 1
[14:01] <MootBot> -1 received from GrueMaster. 2 for, 2 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 0
[14:01] <ogra> we're out of time
[14:01] <NCommander> #endvote
[14:01] <NCommander> [endvote]
[14:01] <MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 2 against. 2 abstained. Total: 0
[14:01] <ogra> i thionk the liquid remix thing is MER ?
[14:01] <NCommander> the motion doesn't pass
[14:01] <NCommander> Anyway, anything else
[14:01] <NCommander> Going once
[14:01] <StevenK> ogra: It is
[14:01] <NCommander> twice
[14:02] <NCommander> 2 and three quarters
[14:02] <NCommander> #endmeeting
[14:02] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:02.
[14:02] <JamieBennett> ogra: I have some experience there if need be.
[14:02] <ogra> NCommander, would have been nice to have some info from ian_brasil ....
[14:02] <ogra> before ending the meeting :P
[14:02] <ogra> since he made the effort to put it up on the agenda
[14:02] <ogra> anyway
[14:02] <NCommander> ogra, er, I just copied the page over
[14:03]  * ogra moves away from -meeting
[14:06] <davidm> Hmm, I've been google calendared
[14:08] <ogra> davidm, yes, gcal is totally broken
[14:08] <ogra> one hour off still
[14:08] <plars> davidm: I almost was as well, but luckily hopped on at 6:50 this morning and saw others discussing the confusion
[14:08] <ogra> davidm, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/LucidSpecifications has the list we worked out
[14:08] <plars> I think we should just all end this dst silliness and be done with it
[14:09] <davidm> ogra, thanks
[14:09] <davidm> plars, I agree
[14:11] <StevenK> davidm, plars: Spec it
[14:11]  * StevenK hides
[14:12] <ian_brasil> ogra, that AOB is carried over from a couple of weeks ago
[14:12] <ogra> ian_brasil, yeah, and i thought you were waiting to present it ... sorry
[15:01] <kees> o/
[15:02] <pitti> \o
[15:06] <sabdfl> afternoon/evening/morning all
[15:06] <kees> heya sabdfl!  we're waiting for a few more tb folks.  currently it's you, pitti, and myself
[15:06] <cjwatson> hi, I'm on-site and have 25 minutes
[15:07] <sabdfl> thanks kees
[15:07] <kees> pitti: you're chair this round, yes?
[15:07] <pitti> erm, if I shall do that, I'm completely unprepared
[15:07] <sabdfl> i volunteered
[15:07] <sabdfl> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
[15:07] <kees> oh, perhaps the minutes weren't updated
[15:07] <sabdfl> cjwatson: you are available now for 25, or will be available in 25?
[15:08] <cjwatson> the former
[15:08] <sabdfl> #startmeeting
[15:08] <MootBot> Meeting started at 09:08. The chair is sabdfl.
[15:08] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[15:08] <sabdfl> [TOPIC] Archive reorganisation
[15:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  Archive reorganisation
[15:09] <cjwatson> nothing to report this time really, busy releasing :-) we had a DMB meeting which unblocked some bits
[15:09] <sabdfl> cjwatson: do you recall the debate we had about retaining an "unseeded packages" permission, or group?
[15:09]  * cjwatson checks the logs quickly
[15:09] <pitti> we never officially finished the voting about delegating kubuntu/mythbuntu/desktop either, I think
[15:09] <sabdfl> it was a long time ago, early in the archive reorg discussion
[15:09] <cjwatson> sabdfl: yes, I think the agreement was to retain that but documentation hasn't been updated
[15:09] <cjwatson> we discussed it last UDS in the hallway, I recall
[15:09] <sabdfl> ok. i was opposed to a group who's mandate was negatively defined - "you can upload anything that nobody else has asked for"
[15:10] <sabdfl> anyhow, i want to flag that folks on the MC appear to want to retain something like MOTU
[15:10] <sabdfl> I recall you quite liked the idea too, but wasn't sure how you now feel
[15:10] <cjwatson> you then said at UDS that you would be content with it as a transitional measure
[15:10] <sabdfl> yes
[15:10] <cjwatson> although I think MC folks want more than that
[15:10] <sabdfl> yes
[15:11] <cjwatson> I like the idea but am not sure how to reconcile it with your objection. Can it be made a matter of presentation?
[15:11] <sabdfl> i'm going to spend time with the MC folks on the issues
[15:11] <sabdfl> i *thought* they would prefer to become core-dev
[15:12] <sabdfl> if they are interested in retaining leadership of a group which can upload anywhere that there are not explicit permissions, how do the TB feel?
[15:12] <pitti> negative seeding somehow feels strange to me
[15:12] <kees> it sounded like there was concern over loss of motu culture (which would be a problem with either losing motu or joining core-dev).  however, it sounds like this culture must adapt given the reorg.
[15:12] <pitti> I'm not opposed to having it, but the effects would be weird
[15:12] <cjwatson> I think they would prefer to become core-dev but also (perhaps as a result of the structure of the Ubuntu development community up until now) feel that it's important for there to be a sense of ownership of things that aren't in the seeded sets
[15:13] <cjwatson> pitti: "weird" in the sense of "a bit like the way Ubuntu has operated up until now"? :-:-)
[15:13] <cjwatson> gosh, lag-induced mutant smiley
[15:13] <kees> if there is a team for unseeded sets that is not core-dev, what defines core-dev?
[15:14] <sabdfl> kees: good point
[15:14] <pitti> cjwatson: well, the way it works right now is pretty clear; but if we splice up the archive into the new "per-project" parts instead of main/universe, it becomes like a dumping ground
[15:14] <cjwatson> err, I'm not sure that premise makes sense
[15:14] <sabdfl> in that sense it's just "a second policy group"
[15:14] <cjwatson> core-dev is everything, as before
[15:14] <sabdfl> which is a  bit weird
[15:14] <sabdfl> look, i think they have enjoyed the responsibilities, more than anything else
[15:14] <sabdfl> there has been a *lot* of great work done
[15:14] <sabdfl> decisions to be taken. dates to be set. commitments and goals to meet
[15:15] <sabdfl> and i think that community has enjoyed defining and taking up that responsibility
[15:15] <cjwatson> I think it's more than that
[15:15] <cjwatson> it's important for the health of Ubuntu that people are taking care of the long tail of packages that aren't part of the major flavours we ship
[15:15] <sabdfl> +1
[15:15] <pitti> not to forget the technical aspect of being able to upload/fix thousands of packages that a lot of people use
[15:16]  * cjwatson recalls the blue sky bombshell :-)
[15:16] <cjwatson> and I do actually think that a number of people within MOTU have internalised that goal
[15:16] <pitti> which they suddenly couldn't do any more if a lot of those end up in project seeds
[15:16] <sabdfl> pitti: they don't seem to be objecting to the idea of package sets around things like xfce which are coherent
[15:17] <sabdfl> so much as missing the piece that cjwatson describes - responsibility for the long tail
[15:17] <pitti> right, I didn't imply that
[15:17] <cjwatson> no, I don't think there's substantial objection to that; the very point of package sets is that somebody is taking care of them
[15:17] <pitti> just that current MOTUs, many of which are generalists, would certainly like to be able to upload all those packages in the future, too
[15:17] <cjwatson> and indeed most MOTUs when asked stated that they wanted to become core-devs as a goal
[15:17] <cjwatson> but I think that is separate from what their goals are
[15:18] <cjwatson> err
[15:18] <cjwatson> that made NO SENSE
[15:18] <sabdfl> we can still leave that option open to them
[15:18] <cjwatson> I think that's separate from what their purpose is, as opposed to their direction
[15:18] <cjwatson> if you see what I mean
[15:18] <sabdfl> is it harmful to have a governing board for that long tail? i can't think of a case where MC decisions have created complications for the core, can anyone here?
[15:18] <cjwatson> it is perfectly coherent for somebody to want to work their way towards core-dev, but for their actual interest still to be in managing the long tail
[15:18] <sabdfl> conversely, is it helpful?
[15:19] <jono> I am not aware of a MC decision affecting core
[15:19] <pitti> sabdfl: I can't remember complications; we have lived a long time with having differnet policies for main/universe without much trouble
[15:19] <sabdfl> motu's that are interested in a particular package set could certainly gain permissions for that
[15:20] <sabdfl> so it's not like we'd have the main problem, where stuff migrated AWAY from the people who were doing a great job maintaining it in universe
[15:20] <cjwatson> I'm generally opposed to a proliferation of governing bodies unless it's helpful (IOW I think the default state is harmful) but in this case my sense is that the MC have done a fine job of being much more aware of issues in the long tail than the TB have been able to be
[15:20] <pitti> ^ quite a lot of overhead for a quick FTBFS fix or merge, though
[15:20] <sabdfl> it's also a good source of talent
[15:20] <jono> do we have any visibility on how many MOTUs really dip into the long tail or merely touch focused packages?
[15:20] <sabdfl> no stats that i'm aware of
[15:21] <cjwatson> my opposition is mainly to having significantly different procedures and practices for the two segments of the developer community
[15:21] <cjwatson> but the MC in and of itself is not a source of that
[15:21] <jono> agreed
[15:21] <sabdfl> they have published different freeze dates on occasion, but i haven't seen that cause any confusion
[15:22] <cjwatson> how many MOTUs> I don't have numerical stats, although I got some feel for it from the mails we sent out asking them what their goals were; it's not all by any means but a respectable subset
[15:22] <jono> I believe there has been general worries in the past where MOTUs felt like second-class developers
[15:22] <sabdfl> right now, i'm feeling it's worth engaging with them and being open to retaining an explicit MOTU role, which is a shift in my position
[15:22] <jono> but I think that perspective wore away somewhat
[15:22] <cjwatson> the concern that one MC member raised about motu-sru being procedurally unable to operate was new to me, and I'll look into that once I return from the US
[15:22] <sabdfl> jono: yes, that's been the concern in the past
[15:23] <cjwatson> the intent was to more or less unify ubuntu-sru and motu-sru, because there's not much point in divergence there, but the intent was not to magically disenfranchise motu-sru
[15:23] <cjwatson> so I think that was an error that crept in somehow
[15:23] <pitti> cjwatson: wrt motu-sru, AFAIR I already asked some members whether they would be fine about being merged into ~ubuntu-sru, and having one common policy
[15:23] <sabdfl> pitti: did you get a response we can act on?
[15:23] <cjwatson> sure, but in the meantime motu-sru should still be able to operate
[15:23] <pitti> which is why we already changed the policy document
[15:24] <pitti> sabdfl: I'll collect it again, on ubuntu-devel@, to have a paper trail
[15:24] <jono> so what is the primary we are seeking an answer for here? whether to have a motu-like body that covers the long-tail?
[15:24] <pitti> sabdfl: right now, the wiki policy and team setup is inconsistent, so we need to fix one or the other
[15:24] <sabdfl> pitti: i'm in favour of empowering the folks who feel like they just got disempowered accidentally
[15:25] <cjwatson> similarly we've had some discussions about merging ubuntu-release and motu-release, and generally trying to eliminate unnecessary duplication; but I don't feel at the moment that that applies to the MOTU Council
[15:25] <cjwatson> that isn't useless duplication, it's useful AFAICS
[15:25] <pitti> cjwatson: +1
[15:25] <sabdfl> jono: yes. can we do that without the negative connotations
[15:25] <sabdfl> is the question.
[15:26] <sabdfl> maybe we should put the question to them:
[15:26] <cjwatson> I don't think they feel that it's negative
[15:26] <sabdfl>  "if we leave an MC and MOTU in place, what changes do you think would be appropriate subsequent to ArchiveReorg"?
[15:26]  * kees nods
[15:27] <sabdfl> that certainly reduces the pressure to move folks from motu to core-dev
[15:27] <jono> agreed
[15:27] <pitti> well, there are two options AFAICS: (1) define them as "upload anything not explicitly covered", and (2) define them as "package generalists who can upload to all project-seeded packages except core"
[15:27] <sabdfl> which has been a concern
[15:27] <pitti> where I'm definitively in favor of (2)
[15:27] <cjwatson> (I'm not saying it doesn't necessarily appear negative to some new people)
[15:27] <sabdfl> do we have a definition for core?
[15:27] <cjwatson> we do but I'm not sure it's what pitti means?
[15:27] <cjwatson> there is a 'core' package set which is all the stuff that's in everything
[15:28] <cjwatson> but it does not e.g. include the Ubuntu desktop (most of it anyway)
[15:28] <pitti> I'm not quite sure about the definition of "core" (i. e. the set of packages ubuntu-core-dev has special privileges on)
[15:28] <cjwatson> the core package set is not the same as historical (ubuntu-core-dev minus motu)
[15:28] <pitti> but I'd rather define "MOTU" as a packaging generalist than "one who can only deal with the long tail of packages"
[15:28] <jono> is it possible to identify core packages and then everything that is not core is considered the long tail
[15:28] <sabdfl> we could start with pitti's (1) with the view that any motu can apply to upload to a package set they are especially interested in
[15:29] <cjwatson> jono: everything is possible given coherent requirements
[15:29] <sabdfl> jono: sort of gets us back to main :-/
[15:29] <jono> sabdfl, indeed
[15:29] <cjwatson> yes, I don't like defining things in terms of historical main either
[15:29] <sabdfl> agreed
[15:29] <sabdfl> ok, do i have a mandate from TB to discuss some sort of continuation of MOTU with the MC?
[15:29] <cjwatson> sabdfl: (1) with the view ...> agreed
[15:30] <cjwatson> sabdfl: I'd like that, yes
[15:30] <sabdfl> if we do it, MOTU will either thrive, or folks will slowly move to core+interested-sets
[15:30] <pitti> so all the MOTUs who want to do QA-like work (FTBFS/merges/etc.) should apply to core-dev then?
[15:30] <cjwatson> pitti: no?
[15:30] <cjwatson> I mean, no more than currently
[15:30] <sabdfl> pitti: yes if they want to do that on stuff which is part of a non-restricted packageset
[15:30] <cjwatson> if they want to cover the whole archive, they need to
[15:31] <cjwatson> but if they just want to address the long tail, they don't
[15:31] <pitti> ok
[15:31] <sabdfl> cjwatson: do we have restricted package sets, where generalists need to join the specific permission groups?
[15:31] <pitti> it just seems weird to me to drop upload privileges from them once e. g. mythbuntu or the ubuntu games team starts seeding a package
[15:31] <kees> seems they would like maintain the definition of motu == !core, but we don't yet have a clear meaning of core yet.
[15:32] <pitti> it's not much different than universe->main promotion of course
[15:32] <jono> unless I am getting something wrong, it strikes me will always end of up with a main-like definition as we have the concept of packages we consider precious and everything else
[15:32] <kees> pitti: right, that team would constantly lose privs, which seems ugly
[15:32] <sabdfl> but on the other hand, it should be much easier for them to "regain" the priv for that specific package(set)
[15:32] <sabdfl> than to get core-dev
[15:32] <sabdfl> let's wrap that issue, I will take it up with MC and revert to TB
[15:32] <sabdfl> thanks for the discussion
[15:32] <jono> thanks sabdfl
[15:32] <pitti> jono: yeah, the "commercially supported" aspect of main is still very fuzzy to me in this new world
[15:32] <sabdfl> [ACTION] sabdfl to speak with MC and revert to TB
[15:32] <MootBot> ACTION received:  sabdfl to speak with MC and revert to TB
[15:33] <sabdfl> [TOPIC]
[15:33] <MootBot> New Topic:
[15:33] <sabdfl> erk
[15:33] <sabdfl> [TOPIC] Python convergence in Ubuntu and Debian
[15:33] <MootBot> New Topic:  Python convergence in Ubuntu and Debian
[15:33] <cjwatson> sabdfl: I don't believe that any of our current sets are restricted, although we haven't excluded the possibility; if we do I think it would just be the kernel
[15:33] <cjwatson> my alarm has gone off to indicate that I can no longer IRC in the jetlag limbo, so I'll have to go
[15:33] <sabdfl> steve mcintyre and i discussed the current divergence and lack of cooperation between ubuntu and debian on Python packages
[15:34] <sabdfl> cjwatson: thanks very much
[15:34] <cjwatson> (unfortunately, since I'm interested in this, but I'll read logs)
[15:34] <sabdfl> cjwatson: regards to the on-site team
[15:34] <cjwatson> will do
[15:34] <sabdfl> jono was on the call
[15:34] <pitti> bye cjwatson
[15:34] <sabdfl> I expressed the view that the divergence was more social than technical, and harmful to both projects
[15:35] <sabdfl> and asked Steve if he would support us asking the Ubuntu TB and Debian technical architecture committee to review both positions and see if they can make a consensus position
[15:35] <sabdfl> he said he would do so
[15:35] <sabdfl> jono, has this been raised here before?
[15:35] <jono> sabdfl, not that I am aware of
[15:35] <pitti> well, it's still rather technical still, AFAICS; e. g. now we have a completely empty set of commonly supported python versions
[15:36] <pitti> (sid: 2.4/2.5, lucid: 2.6 only)
[15:36] <kees> IIUC, the separation of the python is a technical one, similar to the toolchain, where we have to make design decisions based on our release schedule?
[15:36] <sabdfl> ok. This is just to flag the issue for the TB and to ask if there are any objections here to such an approach in order to resolve the divergence one way or the other
[15:36] <jono> our thinking was that it could be useful for the TB to discuss this with the Debian Technical Committee in a joint session
[15:37] <jono> robbie also recommended we discuss our Python policy at UDS
[15:37] <pitti> that would certainly be helpful, especially to see whether a Python transition to 2.6 is still on the table for squeeze, etc.
[15:37] <sabdfl> kees: the ubuntu and debian maintainers have different opinions about how best to do Python
[15:37] <sabdfl> and there is currently no pressure for convergence - each is effectively master in their domain
[15:37] <sabdfl> both are competent guys
[15:38] <sabdfl> unfortunately, the accusation has been made against the ubuntu maintainer that he's taken certain decisions specifically to benefit Ubuntu, which I don't believe to be the case at all
[15:38] <sabdfl> but it's allowed the divergence to persist
[15:39] <jono> would the TB be happy to offer an invitation to a discussion between the TB and the DTC, including both Python maintainers, to discuss this topic?
[15:39] <sabdfl> anyhow, if we agree to be bound in arbitration by a joint decision, that could have a big impact on ubuntu if the joint group goes the debian route
[15:40] <sabdfl> jono: we can agree to discuss, or we can commit to going with a consensus view if one emerges
[15:41] <jono> it strikes me that a discussion is needed first, and a general opinion may well emerge
[15:41] <sabdfl> +1 from me to jono's question. kees?
[15:41] <pitti> sure, there might be other Python areas where we can cooperate better, even if it's not aligning on supported versions
[15:41] <pitti> (which is tricky to do given our different release cycles)
[15:42] <kees> +1
[15:42] <pitti> so +1
[15:42] <sabdfl> ok
[15:42] <jono> while I am happy to offer the invite, I think it may be stronger coming from a TB member
[15:42] <pitti> from my POV I'd like to settle the pysupport vs. pycentral question once and for all
[15:42] <jono> would one of you be happy to do this?
[15:42] <sabdfl> pitti, could you discuss this with doko? or should i?
[15:42] <pitti> sabdfl: can do
[15:42] <sabdfl> jono: i wonder if the invitation shouldn't come from Steve, or Steve and I
[15:42] <jono> sabdfl, Steve and yourself would be perfect
[15:43] <jono> sabdfl, I think we have a call scheduled for Wed anyway
[15:43] <jono> oh, maybe not
[15:43] <sabdfl> [ACTION] sabdfl to draft invitation to DTC and TB to confer and offer a view on python packaging
[15:43] <MootBot> ACTION received:  sabdfl to draft invitation to DTC and TB to confer and offer a view on python packaging
[15:43] <jono> thanks sabdfl
[15:43] <sabdfl> ok, who knows what to do about community bugs?
[15:43] <pitti> I'll do some preparation with doko before
[15:44] <pitti> there are no open community bugs
[15:44] <jono> sabdfl, these are bugs asssigned to the TB, and I don't believe we have any
[15:44] <jono> so that is an easy one to step over :)
[15:44] <kees> I think we didn't review actions from the last meeting yet?
[15:45] <sabdfl> kees: url?
[15:45] <kees> but with a few people missing, perhaps best to skip?
[15:45] <kees> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports/October2009#Technical%20Board
[15:45] <kees> unit policy and ec2 were the two actions I see from there
[15:46] <pitti> and upload delegation voting
[15:46] <sabdfl> DMB review, jono?
[15:46] <pitti> (which started happening on the ML, but wasn't concluded)
[15:46] <kees> pitti: ah, yes, thanks
[15:46] <jono> I asked Daniel to draft this, and his work is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard
[15:47] <jono> I believe he coordinated wit pitti on this too
[15:47] <pitti> we had a call this morning
[15:47] <sabdfl> it's a little terse
[15:47] <pitti> there's not much meat yet, though
[15:47] <jono> yes
[15:47] <sabdfl> Keybuk: do we have a result on the units policy?
[15:48] <sabdfl> smoser: was the TB input sufficient for you to close out the AMI / ARI / AKI policy?
[15:49] <sabdfl> let's move on to AOB
[15:49] <sabdfl> going
[15:49] <sabdfl> going
[15:49] <jono> nope
[15:49] <sabdfl> who will chair the next meeting?
[15:50] <pitti> will do
[15:50] <jono> thanks folks
[15:51] <pitti> thanks sabdfl
[15:51] <kees> 17th... that'll be UDS
[15:51] <sabdfl> more fun in person :-)
[15:51] <sabdfl> thanks pitti, thanks all
[15:51] <kees> I can chair it -- it'll be at 9am local
[15:51] <sabdfl> oh - pitti or kees?
[15:51] <kees> er, sorry, if pitti wants it, that's cool.
[15:52] <sabdfl> ok, pitti it is, kees, i think you volunteered for the next one :-)
[15:52] <pitti> I don't insist :) but yeah, fine
[15:52] <kees> sabdfl: sounds fine to me.
[15:52] <sabdfl> i'll update the TeamReport
[15:52] <sabdfl> thanks all
[15:53] <smoser> sabdfl, yes. to above.
[15:55] <sabdfl> smoser: thanks, will note in the minutes
[15:55] <sabdfl> smoser: url?
[15:55] <smoser> i still need to update. but i do have sufficient info.
[15:56] <kees> (sabdfl: #endmeeting ?)
[15:56] <smoser> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UEC/Images/Publishing is url
[15:56] <smoser> sorry, that was bad url : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UEC/Images/RefreshPolicy
[15:59] <sabdfl> smoser: and "right root filesystem"?
[15:59] <sabdfl> #endmeeting
[15:59] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:59.
[15:59] <sabdfl> phew just in time ;-)
[16:05] <smoser> sabdfl, looking at logs for more context on "right root filesystem"
[16:08] <[v-8]_jupiter> sabdfl : Show a screenshot of your desktop
[16:09] <[v-8]_jupiter> )
[16:14] <smoser> sabdfl, looking at the meeting log from last week, i can't really remember what "right root filesytem" meant.  However, I'll update the RefreshPolicy doc with as much info as I can.
[16:38] <Ddorda0> is there a meeting to membership application today?
[16:39] <czajkowski> Ddorda0: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA today @ 20:00 UTC
[16:40] <czajkowski> I've no idea about America https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
[16:40] <czajkowski> AsiaOceania  is next week
[16:40] <Ddorda0> well, I signed up to AsiaOceania, but I'm not sure I'm part of it
[16:41] <Ddorda0> does Israel is part of it?
[16:41] <czajkowski> Ddorda0: not sure but asiaocean is nov 10th
[16:41] <FFEMTcJ> Ddorda0: you can apply to any of them is my understanding
[16:41] <FFEMTcJ> doesnt have to be the one for your area
[16:42] <FFEMTcJ> im in the us and am applying at the emea tonight
[16:42] <Ddorda0> oh// really?
[16:43] <FFEMTcJ> thats my understanding
[16:46] <mhall119|work> yes, you can apply to any board
[16:47] <mhall119|work> any regional board anyway
[16:47] <mhall119|work> depending on which scheduling works best for you
[16:48] <FFEMTcJ> its mhall119|work
[16:48] <FFEMTcJ> lol
[16:48] <mhall119|work> ?
[16:49] <mhall119|work> oh, heh, I'm in a lot of channels
[16:49] <mhall119|work>  /whois mhall119
[16:49] <FFEMTcJ> only 3
[16:50] <czajkowski> mhall119|work: you've a mode on that only shows some of the channels if a person looks you up and they are in them
[16:50] <czajkowski> mhall119|work: I only see you in 2
[16:50] <mhall119|work> what?
[16:50] <mhall119|work> oh, ok
[16:50] <mhall119|work> didn't know that
[16:50]  * mhall119|work doesn't know much about IRC modes
[16:50] <czajkowski> mhall119|work: see pm
[19:24] <Seveas> EMEA in 36 minutes?
[19:24] <Seveas> popey, prod
[19:25] <popey> o/
[19:29] <MTecknology> where at?
[19:30] <MTecknology> ^wrong chan, sorry
[19:31] <Joeb454> hey forumsmatthew
[19:31] <forumsmatthew> hey!
[19:32] <popey> yo
[19:32] <josepgallart> ok
[19:51] <frandieguez> 10 minutes to EMEA isn't it?
[19:51] <forumsmatthew> yes
[19:51] <forestpiskie> hi forumsmatthew
[19:51] <forumsmatthew> hey!
[19:52] <forestpiskie> forumsmatthew: I snuck in here for a rest :)
[19:52] <forumsmatthew> you are welcome
[19:55] <Joeb454> forumsmatthew: you were meant to tell forestpiskie to get back to modding ;)
[19:55] <Bodsda> Evening all
[19:55] <Joeb454> he's lazy enough as it is!
[19:55] <FFEMTcJ> hello
[19:55] <A4Tech> hi all
[19:55] <forumsmatthew> lol
[19:55] <forestpiskie> Joeb454: bah
[19:55] <Joeb454> forestpiskie: <3
[19:55] <Joeb454> lol
[19:56] <forestpiskie> Joeb454: I'm in the middle of moving house :) cam here to shout loudly
[19:56] <Joeb454> forestpiskie: don't blame you, hope that goes well btw
[19:56] <forestpiskie> so do I :D
[19:57] <popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA
[19:57] <popey> FYI
[19:57] <popey> crikey, full schedule
[19:57] <Bodsda> :)
[19:57]  * popey goes to get his laptop charger
[19:57] <A4Tech> aim1159: q
[19:57] <Bodsda> popey: And some cookies
[19:57] <aim1159> A4Tech: hi
[19:57] <aim1159> hello all!
[19:57] <frandieguez> hi to all!
[19:58] <fmolinero> Hi!
[19:58] <Bodsda> *waves*
[19:58] <A4Tech> :)
[19:58] <Silver_Fox_> Hello =]
[19:58] <heikki> hi!
[20:00] <popey> Bodsda: fish pie for tea :)
[20:00] <Bodsda> popey: Tuna pasta :)
[20:00] <forestpiskie> oooh fish pie :)
[20:01] <popey> home made, by my own fair hands
[20:01] <forumsmatthew> I'm impressed!
[20:01] <popey> right then, we all here?
[20:01] <Bodsda> Sounds nice
[20:01] <forestpiskie> popey: washed I hope :)
[20:01] <popey> of course :)
[20:01] <markvandenborre> hi
[20:01] <popey> hey markvandenborre !
[20:01] <MTecknology> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA
[20:01] <markvandenborre> phew! just in time!
[20:01] <popey> good timing
[20:02] <forumsmatthew> yay
[20:02] <popey> majestyx isnt here?
[20:02] <popey> Silver_Fox_: you're up
[20:02] <Silver_Fox_> Hello,  my name is Silver Fox.  I am from the United Kingdom.  I have been using Ubuntu since just prior to Hardy both at work but also at home.  I am mostly active within the Ubuntu Beginners Team.  Professionally I work as a web developer and database admin.
[20:02] <Bodsda> w00t Go Silver_Fox_ !!!!
[20:03] <forestpiskie> I hope you are there Silver_Fox_ - I am here to shout for you :)
[20:04] <popey> golly, look at all those testimonials
[20:04] <Joeb454> I thought I'd do a testimonial & turn up to shout as well
[20:04] <Joeb454> well, not shout, but you get the idea :)
[20:04] <Silver_Fox_> I am was a little surprised in a nice way popey
[20:06] <popey> Rihght, based on solid testimonials, thats a +1 from me
[20:06] <forumsmatthew> I've just finished reading everything (plus, I do actually know people who are active in the forums, whether they realize it or not...)
[20:06] <forumsmatthew> I'm +1
[20:06] <markvandenborre> +1
[20:06] <forumsmatthew> :)
[20:07] <markvandenborre> congratulations, you're in
[20:07] <popey> Seveas is here too :)
[20:07] <Silver_Fox_> Wow.  Thank you all!
[20:07] <Silver_Fox_> Thanks to the team for the nice words you put on my wiki =]
[20:07] <forestpiskie> woohoo - congrats Silver_Fox_ :)
[20:07] <MTecknology> popey: what about the bot?
[20:07] <Joeb454> congrats Silver_Fox_
[20:08] <popey> Seveas you about?
[20:08] <Bodsda> yay!
[20:08] <Bodsda> congrats Silver_Fox_
[20:08] <Seveas> oia
[20:08] <TuxPurple> congrats Silver_Fox_ :)
[20:08] <Silver_Fox_> Thank you!
[20:08] <MTecknology> popey: #startmeeting ;)
[20:08] <frandieguez> congrats Silver_Fox_ !!
[20:08] <Seveas> was fighting git, sorry for being late
[20:08] <Joeb454> lol
[20:08] <phanatic> hello, i hope i'm not too late...
[20:08] <popey> np Seveas
[20:08] <Bodsda> I think that is a very valid excuse :)
[20:08] <forumsmatthew> phanatic is here too!
[20:08] <popey> ulysses is missing...
[20:09] <forumsmatthew> congrats, Silver_Fox_
[20:09] <popey> delphiexile is missing...
[20:09] <markvandenborre> delphiexile too
[20:09] <popey> papapep you're up!
[20:09] <papapep> Hello everybody. My name is Josep Sànchez (aka papapep), and I'm from the Catalan Loco Team. I work as IT Manager. I use to try to help people in the forum, irc channel and mailing lists. I've invested some time creating the new loco website, and administering it. I love running the LoCo events, and helping people to "exorcize" their computers and install Ubuntu on them. I also spend some time, not as much as I would like, translating documentatio
[20:09] <papapep> ups, seems too long, sorry about that...
[20:09] <Seveas> (wiki is being slow for me)
[20:10] <rafael_carreras> I'm here to cheer for papapep :)
[20:11] <forumsmatthew> Those are wonderful testimonials!
[20:11] <popey> yeah
[20:11] <forumsmatthew> rafael_carreras, anything you want to add to what you have already said on the wiki?
[20:11] <papapep> forumsmatthew: I felt really embarassed reading them :)
[20:12] <rafael_carreras> i think the wiki is quite complete
[20:12] <Seveas> wiki says +1
[20:12] <Seveas> :)
[20:12] <popey> yup, +1 from me too
[20:12] <forumsmatthew> absolutely!+1
[20:12] <phanatic> impressive, +1 keep up the great work!
[20:12] <Seveas> markvandenborre, ?
[20:13] <markvandenborre> +1, really pleased to see someone with a similar trajectory to mine
[20:13] <popey> excellent!
[20:13] <Seveas> ok, added to LP as well (same for silver-fox)
[20:13] <markvandenborre> and may I add that I love seeing all this activity around free software in Catalonia(n)
[20:13] <papapep> many, many thanks to everybody!!
[20:14] <markvandenborre> keep up the good work!
[20:14] <forumsmatthew> congratulations!
[20:14] <Bodsda> papapep: congrats!
[20:14] <frandieguez> enorabuena papapep !!!
[20:14] <Seveas> fmolinero, you're up
[20:14] <papapep> muchas gracias :)
[20:14] <fmolinero> Hi all
[20:14] <fmolinero> My name is Francisco Molinero, from Spain, and my main contribution is translating to Spanish. I work every day in it.
[20:14] <fmolinero> My Job is in a little company on Laser technologies field, and my position is Network manager (Ubuntu server. of course)
[20:15] <popey> woah, look at that karma!
[20:15] <forumsmatthew> Whoa! look at the karma on LP--
[20:15] <popey> (and the beard)
[20:15] <forumsmatthew> lol
[20:15] <Seveas> I see a large amount of translation karma (rock!) but an almost empty wikipage. So I find it hard to judge
[20:15] <popey> hah
[20:16] <phanatic> is anyone here from the spanish team?
[20:16] <Seveas> I'd like to see someone comment on the translation quality before I give a +1, so +0 for now
[20:17] <markvandenborre> +0 too
[20:17] <phanatic> i agree with Seveas, it would be better to have some testimonials. +0
[20:18] <fmolinero> ok
[20:18] <popey> fmolinero: reckon you can round some people up and get them in here before the end of the meeting?
[20:18] <markvandenborre> as in ... please document your (probably great!) efforts a bit more before applying
[20:18] <forumsmatthew> I would say the only thing missing are testimonials from people who can judge the translation work directly. If those are in place it will be an easy approval
[20:18] <fmolinero> ok I will try
[20:18] <forumsmatthew> please come back! I agree with popey if you can get back before we're done, that would rock
[20:18] <Seveas> indeed
[20:18] <Seveas> moving on to josepgallart for now
[20:19] <markvandenborre> I'd like to see some more work on the wiki page too, regardless of possible supporters
[20:19] <MTecknology> frandieguez: What is this? "Branck nick"
[20:19] <frandieguez> Hi!
[20:19] <frandieguez> no it's my name
[20:20] <MTecknology> fmolinero: *
[20:20] <Seveas> josepgallart not in? heikki you're up then
[20:20] <heikki> Good evening everyone! My name is Heikki Mäntysaari and I'm a physics student at the University of Jyväskylä.
[20:20] <heikki> I've been an active member of Ubuntu Finland for some years. My main contributions have been in a localization field: I'm an administrator of the Ubuntu Finnish translators and Launchpad Finnish translators teams. I also maintain one package in Debian and Ubuntu atm (mozvoikko).
[20:20] <josepgallart> hola
[20:20]  * rhkfin cheers for Heikki
[20:20] <heikki> In addition to Ubuntu I've contributed in a more general way by maintaining http://linux.fi which is a Finnish wiki about Linux (there are something like 30 000 unique visitors a month, quite a well as there are just about 5 million people who speak Finnish])
[20:20] <Seveas> ah
[20:20] <heikki> For more information, please see my wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HeikkiM%C3%A4ntysaari
[20:20] <popey> josepgallart: we'll come back to you after heikki
[20:21] <heikki> thanks rhkfin :)
[20:21] <rhkfin> List of edits Heikki has made in the linux.fi -wiki: http://linux.fi/index.php?title=Toiminnot:Muokkaukset&limit=500&target=Heikki
[20:22] <forumsmatthew> rhkfin, please tell me about heikki
[20:22] <Seveas> +1 on heikki based on wiki and testimonials.
[20:22] <rhkfin> (no, he didn't write linux.fi alone, but almost :)
[20:22] <heikki> :)
[20:22] <rhkfin> heikki is a hard worker: he chooses what he want's to do and then just simply does the job.
[20:22] <markvandenborre> +1
[20:22] <forumsmatthew> This was an easy +1
[20:22] <popey> Yup, +1 from me too
[20:22] <rhkfin> Be it translations, writing a blog entry or writing articles to linux.fi
[20:22] <phanatic> +1
[20:22] <markvandenborre> I really like the link with Debian!
[20:22] <forumsmatthew> markvandenborre, agreed
[20:23] <rhkfin> (some days ago he spent a day or two learning GIT - just to be able to write the article in the wiki :)
[20:23] <markvandenborre> :)
[20:23] <Seveas> rhkfin, sorry, but you can't learn git in two days
[20:23] <markvandenborre> :)
[20:23] <rhkfin> Seveas: well, the tutorial isn't complete too :)
[20:23] <Bodsda> you can fully learn git?
[20:23] <Seveas> I've worked with it for over a year now and still the @#$#@$@# won't do what I want ;)
[20:23] <popey> :)
[20:23] <rhkfin> Seveas: at least he tried :D
[20:24] <Seveas> +0.5 for that alone :P
[20:24] <MTecknology> Seveas: basics can be learned in a day though ;)
[20:24] <forumsmatthew> congrats, heikki
[20:24] <heikki> thanks!
[20:24] <popey> congrats heikki keep up the great work!
[20:24] <rhkfin> Onnea heikki :)
[20:24] <Seveas> anyway, I see +5 already
[20:24]  * rhkfin thinks now we're ~7 members in Finland.. more to come, I hope..
[20:24] <Seveas> josepgallart, 2nd try :)
[20:24] <popey> back to fmolinero
[20:24] <popey> oops
[20:24] <josepgallart> hola
[20:24] <popey> er josepgallart sorry
[20:25] <papapep> popey: josepgallart is a non english speaker
[20:25] <papapep> but RainCT talked about it with jono
[20:25] <Seveas> ah, that makes it a bit more challenging for us
[20:25] <papapep> and he agreed that he could apply for his fabulous work
[20:25] <papapep> yeo
[20:25] <papapep> yep, I know
[20:26] <markvandenborre> Aprecio molt els seus esforços, Josep!
[20:26] <papapep> josepgallart: això va per tu ;)
[20:26] <papapep> escriu i jo et tradueixo / ill try to translate him, if you don't mind
[20:26] <josepgallart> gracias
[20:27] <josepgallart> el meu nom es Jo sep gallart badia
[20:27] <Seveas> I like what I see but for advocacy-only applications I prefer to see 'evidence' as in reports/photos of events as well as testimonials from others
[20:27] <Seveas> papapep, that is very kind of you
[20:27] <josepgallart>  formo part del equip local de ubuntu en catala des de la seva fundacio
[20:27] <papapep> he's part from the loco team from his first foundation
[20:27] <josepgallart> la meva activitat esta encaminada a la difusio, de forme presencial
[20:28] <forumsmatthew> I see some mention of his activity in the LoCo team. Could you describe that a bit more?
[20:28] <papapep> josepgallart: els explico el que fas
[20:28] <papapep> forumsmatthew: of course
[20:28] <markvandenborre> Jo no parlo català, però pot utilitzar translate.google.com, i ho faig feliç a un candidat com vostè
[20:28] <josepgallart> per la meva situacio personal, greu minusvalia que em fa mourem amb cadirta de rodes aixo em don tot el temps del mon
[20:29] <papapep> he works mainly spreading ubuntu and foss
[20:29] <papapep> giving courses, talks and similar
[20:29] <papapep> in his home town, and all around villages
[20:29] <josepgallart> porto organitzant xerrades i cursets per tot el territori sempre que puc o mo demanen
[20:29] <papapep> he's really good at that
[20:30] <papapep> he reaches to people through mixing, i.e. gastronomy and ubuntu :)
[20:30] <josepgallart> ames a nivell local estic implicant altres gens per fer difusio
[20:30] <papapep> every now and then he organizes "breakfast and free software"
[20:30] <josepgallart> sempre colavoro em el equip local en el apartat de instalacions
[20:30] <papapep> and he's gathering people in his town to help him in this work
[20:31] <papapep> also, he always gives a hand in the install parties
[20:31] <rafael_carreras> and in eevery LoCo activity manages installations
[20:31] <papapep> he has a really intensive activity
[20:32] <josepgallart> be no ser que mes explicar pero cualsevol dubte
[20:32] <papapep> he is constantly doing things
[20:32] <josepgallart> aqui estic
[20:32] <papapep> if you need to know something else, he'll answer
[20:32] <forumsmatthew> While it is a bit difficult to gauge with the language barrier and the lack of pictures, the testimonials are good and I'm feeling positive
[20:32] <popey> agreed forumsmatthew
[20:32] <popey> I am happy based on that to +1
[20:32] <forumsmatthew> I understand the earlier hesitation, but I'm going to +1
[20:33] <josepgallart> un tema interesant es que amb colavoracio amb una entitat estem preparant una aula ubuntu
[20:33] <papapep> josepgallart: nano, t'han aprovat!
[20:33] <papapep> josepgallart: no encara, perdó
[20:33] <Seveas> hesitating
[20:33] <josepgallart> un espai de intercanvi de coneixaments
[20:33] <Seveas> +0
[20:33] <popey> ok, markvandenborre / phanatic ?
[20:33] <Seveas> markvandenborre, phanatic ?
[20:33] <rafael_carreras> now he a
[20:34] <markvandenborre> +1
[20:34] <frandieguez> enhorabuena josepgallart !!
[20:34] <papapep> is he in?
[20:34] <phanatic> +1, he's doing great work
[20:34] <Seveas> ok, he's in :)
[20:34] <popey> thats 4+, yes, hes in
[20:34] <forumsmatthew> Congratulations!
[20:34] <markvandenborre> I have a very good feeling about this
[20:34] <Seveas> congratulations!
[20:34] <popey> congratulations!
[20:34] <papapep> wow!
[20:34] <rafael_carreras> cheers josepgallart
[20:34] <fmolinero> congratulations!
[20:34] <papapep> josepgallart: enhorabona!!
[20:34] <phanatic> congratulations
[20:34] <josepgallart> gracies a tots
[20:35] <popey> :)
[20:35] <papapep> thanks to everybody
[20:35] <popey> I love this community :)
[20:35] <josepgallart> la feina nomes a començat
[20:35] <papapep> popey: yep, so do I ;)
[20:35] <Seveas> popey, yeah. The only language that matters is the language of FOSS. Other barriers can be taken :)
[20:35] <forumsmatthew> :)
[20:35] <Seveas> Bodsda, you're up next
[20:35] <Bodsda> Hello. My name is Bod. I live in the UK. I have been using Ubuntu as my primary operating system since Hardy, although I had gutsy installed for a while. I spend a lot of my time helping the Ubuntu beginners team and the development focus group. I also spend time in #ubuntu helping out. I am a service desk analyst by day and a hobbyist programmer and Linux enthusiast by night
[20:35] <forestpiskie> woot for Bodsda :D
[20:35] <Bodsda> My wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bodsda
[20:36] <Bodsda> :) hey piskie
[20:36] <Silver_Fox_> \o/ Bodsda =]
[20:36] <popey> nice testimonials there Bodsda
[20:36] <phanatic> indeed
[20:37] <popey> Bodsda: what kind of coding competitions do you run?
[20:37] <Bodsda> popey: I resurrected the Beginner programming challenges on the forums
[20:37] <Seveas> Bodsda, can you please link to your forum profile?
[20:37] <Bodsda> Seveas: http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=448461
[20:37] <popey> Bodsda: what kinds of challenges? What languages, how long do the challenges last?
[20:38] <Bodsda> popey: Any language. Roughly a week. Someone (me to begin with) picks a challenge that beginner programmers can do, they then submit their programs and the Winner of the last challenge (or me) judges the entries and picks a winner, who then starts the next challenge
[20:39] <popey> excellent, sounds like fun :)
[20:39] <MTecknology> Bodsda: I'm just curious; what do you feel you've learn and accomplished in the field of MOTU?
[20:39] <forumsmatthew> I wanted to wait and give others a chance to comment first...I've been watching Bodsda and been pleased with what he has been doing in the forums
[20:40] <Bodsda> MTecknology: I am currently working my way through the (extensive) packaging guide. I am aware of a few broken packages which I want to help submit fixed packages for. I also would like to build a package for an open source Ducgeon Keeper spin off game that I am involved with
[20:40] <popey> as you know I dont frequent the forums so I rely on others for that info forumsmatthew :)
[20:40] <forumsmatthew> :)
[20:40] <Bodsda> thanks forumsmatthew :)
[20:40] <Seveas> me too, that comment definitely helped
[20:40] <forumsmatthew> I'm +1
[20:40] <popey> based on great testimonials I'm +1
[20:41] <Seveas> +1 as well
[20:41] <jarlen> I'd like to cheer for the open source Dungeon Keeper spin-off, that sounds awesome :P
[20:41] <Bodsda> jarlen: yeah! It will be!
[20:41] <Bodsda> some of the models are fantastic, especially the demon
[20:41] <popey> ok, markvandenborre / phanatic ?
[20:42] <phanatic> +1
[20:42] <markvandenborre> +1
[20:42] <Seveas> That's +5, welcome aboard!
[20:42] <forumsmatthew> congratulations!
[20:42] <Bodsda> Wow. Thank you so much guys!
[20:42] <forestpiskie> yay - congrats Bodsda
[20:42] <popey> yay
[20:42] <Silver_Fox_> Well done Bodsda =]
[20:42] <Bodsda> I really appreciate it. Thanks everyone
[20:42] <frandieguez> congrats Bodsda !!
[20:42] <Seveas> kjoller, you're up
[20:42] <popey> Bodsda: drop me a link to the competitions when you get a moment, I'd like to take a look :)
[20:42] <kjoller> Hi. My name is Niels Kjøller Hansen (sorry to all using a non-UTF charset). I am from Denmark, and have been using Ubuntu since Warty, and was involving in starting the LoCoTeam.
[20:42] <Seveas> yeah, me too. I like a challenge
[20:43] <kjoller> wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NielsKjøllerHansen
[20:43] <kjoller> Other than just enjoying the community, I do various organising and booth-manning, as well as some administrative tasks. I also co-host the newly started Danish Ubuntu Podcast (three episodes and counting).
[20:43] <kjoller> Also, I didn't realise having a beard counted in my favour, but mine is pretty nice - in a unkempt sorta way :)
[20:43] <kjoller> I am currently making a mugshot
[20:43] <Bodsda> popey: I'll send you the link to challenge 1 :)
[20:43] <popey> thanks Bodsda
[20:43] <Seveas> +1, testimonials from the Sørens
[20:44] <jarlen> I'm cheering for Kjoller and the great work his doing for the danish LoCo, and his work in our Ubuntu-dk podcast. But I couldn't login to the wiki to write as well
[20:44] <phanatic> very nice wikipage, good testimonials, great work! +1
[20:44] <forumsmatthew> Seveas, that's what I thought... +1
[20:44] <markvandenborre> +1
[20:44] <Seveas> (also excellent work of course, but those testimonials make it really easy)
[20:44]  * sbc cheers for Niels as well
[20:44] <popey> easy +1
[20:44] <Bodsda> popey: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1097136
[20:44] <Seveas> ok, I think that was a record for approval speed
[20:45] <popey> sorry for being the slow one
[20:45] <popey> :)
[20:45] <kjoller> whoohoo!
[20:45] <Seveas> frandieguez, you're up. Try and beat kjoller :)
[20:45] <popey> lol
[20:45] <soren> Yeah, kjoller is a rock star :)
[20:45] <frandieguez> Hi everyboby my name is Fran Diéguez from Spain. I'm a software engineer working at a large educational institution at Galicia (Spain) deploying open source solutions http://www.usc.es/osl based on Ubuntu distribution. Co-coordinator of the Ubuntu Galician Localization Team, focused on translate the Ubuntu OS to Galician language.
[20:45] <frandieguez> I'm also active on http://www.glug.es/ (Galician GNU/Linux User Group). On this group we try to talk to all the society the vantages of Open Source, making courses, lectures at University among other events related with Open Source. At our website you can find a lot of mini howtos based on Ubuntu OS.
[20:45] <frandieguez> Finally I translate GNOME desktop to galician language with just another active person and currently we are translating documentation.
[20:46] <Seveas> -0. Wikipage, activity and karma definitely look good, but I cannot judge the contributions properly due to the language so I would like to see some testimonials
[20:47] <forumsmatthew> Wow. the complete lack of testimonials makes this difficult for me
[20:47] <frandieguez> Yes, one my work I don't have a lot of persons
[20:47] <Seveas> frandieguez, surely there are more people in glug and the galician locoteam?
[20:47] <forumsmatthew> I have to -0 with Seveas for now
[20:47] <frandieguez> yes
[20:47] <mbouzada> I'm not from ubuntu member but I have been working with ffrandieguez and his work and translations are incredible valuate!
[20:48] <popey> if you can get some testimonials that would make it a lot easier
[20:48] <frandieguez> I think mbouzada have something to say
[20:48] <Seveas> then let him say so on your wikipage :)
[20:49] <Seveas> also, testimonials is plural, more than one is definitely appreciated
[20:49] <markvandenborre> +0
[20:49] <frandieguez> ok i'll try to collect more testimonials
[20:49] <popey> yeah, I'm +0 for now, it's clear youd doing good work, but we need to see some confirmation
[20:50] <Seveas> ok frandieguez, then we'll hopefully see you again soon!
[20:50] <popey> please do keep up the great work and come back at the next meeting with a fuller wiki page
[20:50] <phanatic> hope to see you next month with testimonials (+0)
[20:50] <Seveas> A4Tech, you're up
[20:50] <A4Tech> Hi, My name is Dmitry, I'm from Russia, Saint Peterburg. At the moment I am a student. Using ubuntu since the release of 7.10. On my laptop. There are currently installed 9.10. I am a member of Russian LoCo team, and responsible for support and IRC.
[20:50] <A4Tech> This includes user support, knowledge base to date. Was translated into the whole base ubottu. And of course work as the operator of the channel. Just now learning PyGTK that would write the applications that I miss in ubuntu :)
[20:51] <Seveas> Lack of activity details on the wiki, no testimonials... thinking of -1 due to bad preparation.
[20:52] <markvandenborre> -1, same reasons
[20:52] <forumsmatthew> -1
[20:52] <popey> +1 also.
[20:52] <forumsmatthew> popey, ??
[20:52] <popey> er
[20:52] <popey> -1
[20:52] <forumsmatthew> :)
[20:52] <popey> oops
[20:52] <markvandenborre> please do come back when you've documented your efforts better
[20:52] <markvandenborre> !
[20:52] <A4Tech> ok, thx :)
[20:52] <forumsmatthew> A4Tech, I think you have promise, but you need to document better and get some people to testify on your behald
[20:52] <forumsmatthew> behalf
[20:52] <Agafonov> I'm Ru LoCo coordinator, A4Tech making valueble contibution
[20:53] <popey> Agafonov: put it on his wiki page :)
[20:53] <Seveas> Agafonov, then please do write a (slightly more detailed) testimonial on his wikipage
[20:53] <forumsmatthew> agreed
[20:53] <markvandenborre> try to be more specific about what you have done
[20:53] <Seveas> FFEMTcJ, you're up next
[20:53] <FFEMTcJ> Hello all
[20:53] <FFEMTcJ> My name is Chris Johnston. I'm from Florida. I am a FireFighter / Paramedic offline (I'm actually on duty right now, so I hope I don't have to leave). I have been using Ubuntu for 3 years full time.
[20:53] <markvandenborre> a picture of a meeting you helped prepare for example
[20:53] <FFEMTcJ> I started out managing an Ubuntu server for my websites, and then very quickly began using it as a desktop. I have been running my website (http://chrisjohnston.org) for a year writing Ubuntu tutorials for both server and desktop users.
[20:54] <Seveas> same comments here, lack of activity details on the wiki, no testimonials... -1 due to bad preparation.
[20:54] <forumsmatthew> ditto
[20:54] <forumsmatthew> -1 for now
[20:54] <phanatic> i agree
[20:54] <markvandenborre> -1, same reasons
[20:54] <FFEMTcJ> Thanks for your time
[20:54] <Seveas> please do prepare before coming to these meetings. We have a few minutes to gauge your activity. Make this easy for us and we'll make it easy for you :)
[20:55] <forumsmatthew> heikki proved that...
[20:55] <markvandenborre> as an aside, you might want to look at central documentation
[20:55] <Seveas> aim1159, you're up
[20:55] <markvandenborre> on the ubuntu wiki
[20:55] <aim1159> OK. I guess u'd give me -1 but i'll have a try...
[20:55] <markvandenborre> and try to improve that
[20:55] <aim1159> so Hello!
[20:55] <aim1159> My name is Andrey Mavlyanov. I live in Saint Petersburg, Russia. I do linux community work in my city for near 8 years and besides that i'm doing ubuntu promotion in my region by organising the LoCo. As my primary job I do linux and unix sysadmining in a forex trading company.
[20:56] <forumsmatthew> Again, I like what I see, but I need/want a little more
[20:56] <aim1159> Most of my activities described on the wiki page. besides the help for some goverment organisations to move some parts of the systems to linux (of cause ubuntu and debian)
[20:56] <Seveas> aim1159, well, to be honest your wikipage is better already, but indeed some testimonials are needed as (i believe) none of us speak russian and can 'check' your contributions. -0
[20:57] <forumsmatthew> Please get some testimonials and fill out the description of your work
[20:57] <popey> agreed
[20:57] <forumsmatthew> Please, please, please come back then
[20:57] <forumsmatthew> -0 for now
[20:57] <markvandenborre> aim1159: if English is a problem for you or your comrades
[20:57] <markvandenborre> you might want to use a translation engine
[20:57] <aim1159> For me english is not a problem.
[20:57] <markvandenborre> (just making sure that this wouldn't be the hurdle!)
[20:58] <forumsmatthew> I think each of you show promise and I hope to see you again soon, but a little better prepared
[20:58] <markvandenborre> (en is not my native language either)
[20:58] <aim1159> but for a work part - most of this can't be made public. that's why it was not included
[20:58] <oronl> go ddorda , pick ddorda he's the best for you!!!
[20:58] <Seveas> aim1159, all that matters is public contributions to ubuntu and its community. What you do at work stays at work :)
[20:59] <Seveas> last candidate for today is Ddorda. And we have one enthousiastic cheerleader already i see :)
[20:59] <Ddorda> hey! I'm currently one of the most active LoCo members in Israel. I've been writing a blog to help new users. I also created our new LoCo website. While I was working on this, I became a developer for the Ubuntu-Drupal project which is used by many other LoCo's. I've also been working hard on translations for Ubuntu.
[20:59] <Seveas> Ddorda, btw, you're lying :P
[20:59] <oronl> yay!!!! ddorda!!!
[21:00] <Ddorda> The guides I wrote can be seen here: http://ddorda.useopensource.net/category/guides, Our LoCo website - (Old: http://ubuntu-il.com/forums/ New: http://ubuntu-il.com/site/), My translations: https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/~ddorda/+activity.
[21:00] <Seveas> # more than 6500 total Karma. <-- launchpad says 6000
[21:00] <Seveas> nonetheless: impressive!
[21:00] <Ddorda> I'm lying?
[21:00] <MTecknology> Seveas: karma drops ;)
[21:00] <oronl> hews not lying !!!
[21:00] <Ddorda> well, it was 6500 when I wrote it
[21:00] <elidaian> He is not lying
[21:00] <forumsmatthew> Seveas is teasing you
[21:00] <popey> heh
[21:00]  * popey remembers the day he had more karma than anyone...
[21:00] <popey> those were the days
[21:01] <MTecknology> I remember having over 70k karma; then they changed it
[21:01] <phanatic> +1, good work and testimonials
[21:01]  * forumsmatthew doesn't think he has ever had more karma than anyone
[21:01] <MTecknology> popey: they were
[21:01] <Seveas> I once had millions of karma. Now I'm close to 0
[21:01] <oronl> pick ddorda!!!
[21:01] <popey> yeah, a great +1
[21:01] <Seveas> weird karma algorithms :)
[21:01] <Seveas> +1
[21:01] <forumsmatthew> I'm +1, there was never any question once I saw the wiki page
[21:01] <elidaian> he is one of the best guides in ubuntu israel
[21:01] <Seveas> forumsmatthew, agreed. Very good contributions
[21:01] <Ddorda> forumsmatthew: thanks
[21:02] <Seveas> markvandenborre, ?
[21:02] <markvandenborre> +1
[21:02] <Ddorda> :)
[21:02] <forumsmatthew> congratulations!
[21:02] <FFEMTcJ> Well.. as I said I am a firefighter, and we just got an alarm, so I must go..
[21:02] <Seveas> clickety-click and launchpad agrees
[21:02] <Seveas> welcome aboard Ddorda!
[21:02] <Ddorda> yay, thanks :D
[21:02] <popey> FFEMTcJ: take care
[21:02] <popey> right, we had one more to go back to..
[21:02] <elidaian> That is an excellent choise!
[21:02] <oronl> i use ddorda blog and websites allmost everyday and hes doing the best he can do for ubuntu !!
[21:02] <popey> fmolinero:
[21:03] <fmolinero> Hello
[21:03] <Seveas> popey, wasn't that josepgallart?
[21:03] <Seveas> ah no, fmolinero
[21:03] <josepgallart> si?
[21:03] <popey> lol
[21:03] <popey> no, it was fmolinero
[21:03] <fmolinero> Ok
[21:03] <popey> fmolinero: have you found some people to "cheer" for you?
[21:03] <fmolinero> I have not suport for me
[21:03] <popey> if not, don't worry, come back when you have found some
[21:04] <fmolinero> sorry, and thank you for yopur time
[21:04] <popey> at the next meeting perhaps?
[21:04] <forumsmatthew> Yes, please do come back. Everything else looks great
[21:04] <popey> no problem
[21:04] <Seveas> fmolinero, please let people write on your wikipage and come to the next meeting. Approval will be a mere formality then :)
[21:04] <fmolinero> sure
[21:04]  * markvandenborre needs to go!
[21:04] <popey> thanks everyone
[21:04] <markvandenborre> bye everyone
[21:04] <Seveas> end of meeting!
[21:04] <markvandenborre> congratulations to the new members!
[21:04] <popey> nice of you to drop in markvandenborre ;)
[21:04] <Seveas> bye all, I'm back to fighting git
[21:05] <forumsmatthew> bye, all!
[21:05] <Ddorda> cya, and thanks
[21:05] <phanatic> thanks, and good night everyone
[21:05] <markvandenborre> popey: I am 100% niceness!
[21:05] <markvandenborre> :)
[21:05] <popey> you are
[21:05] <Seveas> markvandenborre, 98%
[21:05] <Seveas> you snore!
[21:05]  * rhkfin like the way the board works
[21:05] <rhkfin> thanks everyone
[21:06] <markvandenborre> thank you rhkfin, and byeè
[21:06] <papapep> godd night to everyone, and keep up whith the good job!
[21:07] <heikki> thanks for the membership status! and bye
[21:07] <kjoller> yes have a good night
[21:07]  * kjoller waves his record trophy
[21:08] <aim1159> have a good day/night everyone!
[21:16] <ulysses__> greetings
[22:02] <bodhi_zazen> FC meeting ?
[22:03] <bodhi_zazen> Ah, Thursday, not Tuesday, lol