[00:16] <yuriy> JontheEchidna: I think that HelpingKubuntu page should also be moved into the /Kubuntu and add the toolbox and all
[00:17] <yuriy> the /Kubuntu/ namespace
[01:56] <JontheEchidna> yuriy: to be clear, apachelogger added that url. I added the merge one
[01:56] <JontheEchidna> though I do agree with the sentiment
[04:51] <jwisser> So if a Mac/Ubuntu user with a reasonable amount of technical knowledge and a sense for promotion wanted to help out with Kubuntu and Project Timelord, what should they do?
[04:52] <ScottK> Show up here and say they wanted to help.
[04:52] <jwisser> Well, I've done that bit. :-)
[04:54] <jwisser> So what can I do?
[05:00] <markey> morning
[05:01] <markey> what is kerneloops?
[05:01] <markey> package
[05:01] <markey> ok, got it
[05:01] <markey> Description: kernel oops tracker
[05:01] <markey> however, I saw this on upgrade:
[05:01] <markey> update-rc.d: warning: kerneloops stop runlevel arguments (0 1 6) do not match LSB Default-Stop values (1)
[05:01] <markey> is it ok?
[05:02] <ScottK> markey: yes.
[05:02] <ScottK> jwisser: I'd ask apachelogger or JontheEchidna.  I'm not up on the details.
[05:04] <jwisser> Okay. I'm going to offer my first piece of advice, then, which is that everyone in this channel should know exactly who or what document to send people like me to. :-)
[05:05]  * ScottK agrees.
[05:05] <ScottK> jwisser: There is https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/GettingInvolved/Development
[05:06] <markey> yay, new Chromium builds
[05:06]  * markey hugs apachelogger 
[05:09] <jwisser> ScottK: Heh. I shouldn't have walked into a devel list and said "reasonable amount of technical knowledge". Sorry about that. I'm comfortable on the command line in any *nix, but that's about as far as my knowledge goes. I'm looking to learn everything about Kubuntu (which I know means a lot of reading and lurking), but I'm primarily interested in helping with marketing and promotion and building a coherent vision.
[05:10] <ScottK> jwisser: That's excellent.  We've got very little of that now and we need it.
[05:10] <jwisser> Which, judging by the Project Timelord specs and my previous experiences with Kubuntu, is needed.
[05:10] <ScottK> Agreed.
[05:11] <jwisser> ScottK: Is there anyone in here involved in that aspect of things who I should start by talking to?
[05:11] <ScottK> We've got essentially no marketing team, so be prepared to be in charge very quickly.
[05:11] <ScottK> jwisser: ryanakca is the webmaster for kubuntu.org.  That's one person.
[05:12] <ScottK> jwisser: We did have a discussion while working on the timelord stuff about what our target audience is.
[05:13] <ScottK> Our aim is: 0 - KDE fanatics, 1 - home users that like what KDE gives them, 2 - KDE oriented geeks that want to use KDE at work, but need to work in a corporate IT environment, 3 - (and we aren't to this one yet, really) small business that want to migrate away from windows.
[05:14] <ScottK> The last one is important because there's a reasonable business in helping people do that and that should help people interesting in developing Kubuntu have a solid business basis for doing so.
[05:14] <jwisser> ::nods:: Speaking as someone who's just broken up with GNOME, is there any interest in pursuing the disenchanted from other environments?
[05:14] <jwisser> I assume that's a sort of secondary push at best.
[05:15] <ScottK> Certainly, but we don't necessarily focus on poaching Gnome.  We know who the real enemy is.
[05:15] <jwisser> ::laughs:: Fair enough.
[05:15] <jwisser> Is the idea with small business to be their server or their point of sale?
[05:16] <ScottK> Their office and maybe POS.  I have a notion of a linkage to Ubuntu Server and being their sever too.
[05:16] <ScottK> sever/server
[05:16] <ScottK> There is Kolab that provides server side integration with KDE, but we are doing essentially nothing with it today.
[05:16] <ScottK> We also have Kubuntu Netbook Edition.
[05:17] <jwisser> ::nods:: That's beyond what I know right now, so I'll need to do some reading.
[05:17] <ScottK> That's new this cycle and just a tech preview.
[05:17] <ScottK> It has a slightly different target.
[05:17] <jwisser> Ah, yes. I've only experimented with the Ubuntu Netbook Remix. I'm curious to see what KNE has to offer.
[05:17] <ScottK> We want the enthusiasts, but we also want OEM's trying to offer something different.
[05:17] <ScottK> That will also generate revenue to feed into development to make Kubuntu better.
[05:18] <jwisser> Is the expectation to have a polished release for 10.04?
[05:18] <ScottK> One advantage that we have right now, is that if you want a KDE based netbook distro, we have the only one.
[05:18] <ScottK> yes.
[05:18] <jwisser> And, I have to say, that's a big question—what kind of marketing budget is there?
[05:18]  * ScottK is doing an openweek session on it tomorrow.
[05:19] <ScottK> We can poach IT resources from Canonical, but in terms of money for advertising and stuff, none currently.  If we had a good plan, we might convince Canonical.
[05:19] <ScottK> Kubuntu is pretty radically different than Ubuntu in how it's run.
[05:20] <jwisser> ::nods::
[05:20] <ScottK> It has significant contributions from Canonical that make the distro possible, but most of the work is in the community's hands and most of the decision making too.
[05:20] <jwisser> Here's the thing: I've never liked Kubuntu much because, from my point of view as a Mac user, it ships broken.
[05:20] <jwisser> But Project Timelord sounds like a serious effort to fix that.
[05:20] <ScottK> It is
[05:21] <ScottK> This is the right time too, as we are coming back from the dead after the KDE 4 transition.
[05:21] <jwisser> And that's why I'd like to be involved right now. I wouldn't be here if that hadn't been on the front page. I would love to see Kubuntu get its act together and kick some ass.
[05:22] <ScottK> Welcome.
[05:22] <jwisser> ::big grin:: Very cool.
[05:24] <jwisser> Tell you what—it's just past midnight for me and I need to get some writing done before I crash, but I'm going to pull 9.10 and the KNE overnight and install and start playing with them tomorrow, plus start doing some of the reading/catching up I'm going to need to do.
[05:24] <ScottK> OK.
[05:24] <jwisser> I'll be in here as much as I can to soak up some knowledge.
[05:24]  * ScottK nods
[05:24] <ScottK> A lot of the brain power is in Europe, so sleeping now.
[05:24] <jwisser> Ah! Kubuntu is heavily Europe-based?
[05:25] <ScottK> It's worldwide, but yes.
[05:25] <ScottK> Roughly equal US/Europe and a few from elsewhere.
[05:25]  * jwisser nods.
[05:26] <jwisser> It's going to be hard to break my IM habits for IRC. :-P
[05:26] <jwisser> But thanks for the welcome! I'm looking forward to working on this.
[05:27] <ScottK> No problem.  Glad to have more hands on the problem.
[05:27] <ScottK> Particularly to work in an area that I know I have very limited capability in.
[05:30] <jwisser> It's gonna be good.
[06:15] <Quintasan> duuno if this is relevant to Timelord but asian input in KDE is broken since 4.0 and it started working recently (using IBus) but we need a sensible tool for showing current input method (input method panel for Plasma uses XIM AFAIK) and a patch to make Qt4 use IBus by default (currently XIM is selected as a input method)
[06:28]  * Quintasan is out, time to school
[09:00] <markey> yo, this is great:
[09:00] <markey> Ubuntu sent us a giant package of CDs
[09:01] <markey> with no recpient specified
[09:01] <markey> we had to guess
[09:01] <markey> (there are several families living here)
[09:01]  * markey thinks CDs are best used as Frisbees :p
[09:01] <Mamarok> actually it only says Loc. Switzerland, my name as the contact for the Swiss Team is not on it
[09:02] <Mamarok> Riddell: I will send a mail to ship-it because of that, that might well work in a small village like here, but in other countries the CDs will simply not get through
[10:12]  * Riddell snoozesdeb http://ppa.launchpad.net/kubuntu-ppa/staging/ubuntu karmic main 
[10:12] <Riddell> what the heck?
[10:12] <Riddell> ** please test 4.3.3 from staging  deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/kubuntu-ppa/staging/ubuntu karmic main
[10:16] <Riddell> agateau: bug  has been getting quite a few reports upstream
[10:16] <Riddell> bug 466700
[10:17] <agateau> Riddell: /me reads
[10:21] <Tonio_> Riddell: did you know about http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/FirefoxIntegration .
[10:21] <Tonio_> Riddell: we should ahve a look at this I guess
[10:39] <Riddell> Tonio_: yes we know about them
[10:39] <Tonio_> Riddell: hum is that incompatible and can't we use them ?
[10:48] <Riddell> Tonio_: I believe debfx has packages in his PPA
[10:51] <Tonio_> Riddell: right, testing
[10:56] <agateau> Riddell: have you ever reproduced bug 466700?
[10:56] <Tonio_> Riddell: it works pretty darn well...
[10:56] <Tonio_> Riddell: dialog boxes and mimetypes, which are the 2 main problems seem to work
[10:57] <Tonio_> Riddell: I'll play with this a little bit and eventually we should get those for lucid
[10:57] <Tonio_> at least from within a kubunfox metapackage
[10:57] <Riddell> agateau: no, and I couldn't see a clear pattern for what would cause it in the various bug reports upsteram
[10:58] <agateau> Riddell: and we don't have libindicate-dbg package to help :/
[10:58] <Riddell> Tonio_: it's not a meta package, it's patches to firefox
[10:58] <Tonio_> Riddell:
[10:58] <Riddell> agateau: well no, that's why apport is useful
[10:58] <Tonio_> oups... those patches to check for a new lib, which is a new package
[10:59] <Tonio_> Riddell: this means that when packaged properly, once firefox is patched, it won't change anything as long as the kmozillahelper package ain't install
[10:59] <Tonio_> so a metapackage that would install firefox + kmozillahelper could be interesting, don't you think ?
[10:59] <Tonio_> Riddell: those pathces don't change firefox default behavior
[11:00] <Riddell> Tonio_: I'm not the one who needs to be convinced, asac is
[11:00] <Tonio_> Riddell: yep, I know ;)
[11:00] <Tonio_> Riddell: I'll try to convince him then :)
[11:02] <Tonio_> Riddell: can you remind me of the guy who made the patches for screen backlight osd ?
[11:02] <Tonio_> Riddell: that's very nice, what I wanted and integrated the way you wanted to
[11:03] <Tonio_> Riddell: so I'd like to help for the other keycodes
[11:03] <Tonio_> especially since this can go upstream
[11:06] <Riddell> Tonio_: debfx
[11:07] <Tonio_> Riddell: oki same guy.... I think I'll have to work closely with him during lucid
[11:07] <Tonio_> Riddell: although my n°1 priority this time is the samba sharing
[11:07] <Tonio_> I want it for lucid.... not acceptable that kde doesn't handle this atm
[11:16] <Tonio_> Riddell: any info on an eventual port of the ubuntu software store to kde ?
[11:18] <Riddell> Tonio_: what for?
[11:18] <Tonio_> Riddell: get a decent package manager ?
[11:18] <Tonio_> Riddell: kpackagekit still has it's problems...
[11:19] <Tonio_> Riddell: and it looks that this is our main issue for...... too long
[11:19] <Nightrose> agateau: "indicator display" = worst plasmoid name ;-)
[11:19] <Nightrose> i had to follow your link to even find it in the add applets dialog
[11:20] <Tonio_> Riddell: kpackagekit still is unusable for my mother,although it is a nice replacement for adept
[11:20] <agateau> Nightrose: I have to agree :/
[11:20] <Nightrose> agateau: who came up with that crap then? :D
[11:20] <agateau> Nightrose: that would be me
[11:20] <Nightrose> haha ok
[11:20] <Nightrose> fix it! :D
[11:20] <agateau> Nightrose: was not inspired this day
[11:20] <agateau> Nightrose: I'd rather fix the crashers first
[11:21] <Nightrose> hehe fair enough
[11:21] <Tonio_> Riddell: we should have at least the apt:/ protocol and a gnome app-install/software store equivalent imho...
[11:21] <Tonio_> Riddell: but that won't make it until canonical helps
[11:22] <Tonio_> and all new devs started by ubuntu increase the feature gap between ubuntu/kubuntu unfortunatelly
[11:23] <Tonio_> Riddell: everytime I read kubnutu reviews, the same big problem is mentionned : poor package manager :-(
[11:23] <Riddell> we have apturl-kde
[11:24] <Riddell> porting software store to KDE wouldn't be too hard if someone wanted to do it, although I'd rather it was done in a cross distro way with a nice frontend to kpackagekit
[11:25] <Tonio_> Riddell: oh !!!!! I didn't figure out apturl :)
[11:25] <Tonio_> nice
[11:26] <Tonio_> Riddell: then let's just say we miss the old adept-installer then...
[11:27] <Riddell> we've always said we want an application based installer, we've speced it out in the past, rgreening has looked into it
[11:28] <Tonio_> Riddell: my intention was never to critisize :) just it's not there...
[11:28] <Tonio_> Riddell: sure I could have help on that point.... rgreening did a lot recently...
[11:28] <Tonio_> Riddell: maybe we should consider this a priority for lucid...
[11:29] <Tonio_> Riddell: we have a lot more people that can code now that in the past, that's an opportunity to improve on that point
[11:29] <Tonio_> I'll try to get involved on that this time, since I'll have more time available, and will not travell that much
[11:30] <Riddell> new things shouldn't be a priority for lucid, it's LTS, we need to focus on quality
[11:31] <Tonio_> Riddell: although I agree, addressing tremendous issues like this can also be a matter of quality
[11:31] <Tonio_> Riddell: maybe a new app shouldn't be the priority, but eventually get rgreening's work on kpackagekit finished could be considered
[11:32] <Tonio_> Riddell: cause most of what is criticized in kubnutu isn't a matter of stability or packaging, it's more a lack of feature...
[11:32] <Riddell> we get our share of critisism for stability and packaging too
[11:33] <Tonio_> Riddell: that's obvious, I agree, maybe I just look at least from within my eyes and tend to get a different feeling :)
[11:34] <Tonio_> Riddell: appart from that what I enjoy right now is that most reviews tend to agree that kubuntu progressed a lot the last 2 releases....
[11:34] <Tonio_> Riddell: definately going with kde upstream and minimum kde patches was the good way to go
[11:35] <Riddell> we also get our share of reviews saying kubuntu adds nothing to upstream, cannae win :)
[11:35] <Tonio_> Riddell: which isn't false looking at what opensuse does
[11:36] <Tonio_> Riddell: but we do a lot more that in the past
[11:36] <Tonio_> Riddell: criticizing ubuntu/kubuntu/*buntu is very common nowadays
[11:36] <Tonio_> Riddell: people don't like projects that get some success
[11:37] <Tonio_> Riddell: you want to win -> that's positive
[11:37] <Tonio_> you "won" -> you are the enemy
[11:37] <Tonio_> that's life... french linux boards are criticizing ubuntu for whatever is done...
[11:43] <MelisU> Hello, is it possible to develop Firefox KDE integration so that it uses Dolphins file associations? (is that mime types?)
[11:45] <Tonio_> MelisU: I just discussed about that, check : deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/debfx/firefox-kde/ubuntu karmic main
[11:45] <Tonio_> MelisU: dist-upgrade and install kmozillahelper package
[11:45] <Tonio_> MelisU: restart firefox, it'll work
[11:45] <agateau> Riddell: I think the crasher is about to be fixed
[11:46] <ScottK> Riddell and Tonio_: Since we ship the branded Firefox and accept the view that Mozilla corps trademark license means we have to ask permission to patch Firefox, It's not just asac that needs convincing.  It's also mozilla corp.
[11:47] <agateau> ScottK: or convince Mark to ship under another name :)
[11:47] <MelisU> Tonio_: Way cool, do you travel to the future and read minds? :)
[11:47] <ScottK> That too.
[11:47] <agateau> ScottK: which ever is easier to achieve
[11:47] <Riddell> ScottK: somehow suse get away with it
[11:47] <ScottK> Riddell: Not sure if they got permission or don't care.  I think Novell has more lawyers than us.
[11:48] <ScottK> Novell is certainly more in the legal news anyway.
[11:49] <Tonio_> MelisU: just coincidence :)
[11:50] <Tonio_> ScottK: hum, well opensuse does it, and also ships with the mozilla trademarks
[11:50] <Tonio_> ScottK: I wouldn't be surprized it novell/mozilla would even make the patches upstream
[11:50] <ScottK> Tonio_: Sure, but it's a step Canonical will need to take as well.
[11:50] <Tonio_> ScottK: those aren't harmfull patches anyway, more or less new files and a couple of tests
[11:51] <Tonio_> ScottK: I agree
[11:51] <Tonio_> ScottK: asac may kno more on that point
[11:51]  * ScottK snoozes.
[11:51] <Tonio_> ScottK: but firefox is such a nightmare to use with kde...
[11:51] <MelisU> Tonio_: That would be a great great addition to the Kubuntu Firefox installer
[11:51] <ScottK> Tonio_: Agreed, but Konqueror is such a nightmare to use with the web.
[11:51] <Tonio_> ScottK: talking about user exeprience if I were a new kubuntu user, I would consider this a showstopper issue
[11:52] <Tonio_> MelisU: I agree, but as this requires to patch firefox, it's not that easy to get it done...
[11:52] <Tonio_> ScottK: arora by default for lucid + nice firefox integration would make is a lot better I suspect
[11:53] <Tonio_> ScottK: do you think we'll still ship with konqueror this time ?
[11:57] <Tonio_> ScottK: I know your feeling and I agree.... we should stop shipping with konqueror as default browser...
[11:58] <Tonio_> ScottK: it's like microsoft shipping with IE6.... or 5
[11:58] <Sput> yeah, it sadly has regressed lately
[11:58] <Sput> seems more and more sites stop working correctly with it :(
[11:58] <Tonio_> not any of the 10 major websites do work correctly with it, therefore, despite being a decent engine and going with the standards, it's a useless app now
[11:58] <Tonio_> Sput: javascript is the problem
[11:58] <Tonio_> not khtml itself
[11:58] <Sput> probably, yes
[11:59] <Tonio_> anyway, with qt4.6 supporting java in webkit, arora might be the replacement we all are waiting for
[11:59] <Sput> I find myself always having an arora window for certain pages by now
[11:59]  * jussio1 hopes nokia sorts something with it...
[11:59]  * jussio1 just uses firefox.
[11:59] <Tonio_> jussio1: khtml is dead, webkit has won the battle
[11:59] <Sput> actually I should try rekonq again
[11:59] <Tonio_> Sput: not as well maintained as arora I'd say
[11:59] <jussio1> Tonio_: so what about something like rekonq?
[12:00] <jussio1> hehe
[12:00] <Sput> Tonio_: yeah, but arora still lacks KDE integration
[12:00] <Tonio_> jussio1: it there was the same community that arora has built i'd say yes
[12:00] <Tonio_> Sput: it has the basics
[12:00] <Tonio_> Sput: file system, mimetypes, dialog boxes
[12:00] <Sput> yeah it's improving :)
[12:00] <Sput> even has proper session management
[12:00] <Tonio_> it should get kwallet, I agree, but for most people the integration is not that bad
[12:01] <Tonio_> and I prefer partial integration and browse facebook...
[12:01] <Sput> I think it has issues here with focus stealing prevention and stuff like that
[12:01] <Tonio_> Sput: rekonq ain't that bad, but I don't see this app get adblock in the future for example
[12:01] <Tonio_> Sput: yeah it has
[12:01] <Tonio_> Sput: but it's improving very quickly
[12:01] <Sput> I had it as a default for a while, but clicking on links caused it to open in the background, and the launch feedback in the panel to go on forever
[12:02] <Sput> plus jobs not being finished in the notification area
[12:02] <Tonio_> Sput: and lots of problems are due to qtwebkit, which should be fixed in 4.6
[12:02] <Sput> things like that killed the experience for me :)
[12:02] <Sput> but I keep trying, of course
[12:02] <Sput> the rendering is great
[12:11] <Riddell> so anyone tested 4.3.3 yet?
[12:12] <jussio1> Riddell: is it ppa'd?
[12:12] <MelisU> Riddell: I am willing to test. Where is the ppa?
[12:12] <Riddell> 10:12 < Riddell> ** please test 4.3.3 from staging  deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/kubuntu-ppa/staging/ubuntu karmic main
[12:14] <Sput> mpf, arora should be able to read konq's bookmarks without crapping out though -.-
[12:15] <MelisU> Riddell: Installing now on my 9.10 EeePC 901
[12:16] <jussio1> Riddell: upgrading now :)
[12:16] <MelisU> Is KDE in Kubuntu vanilla KDE.org KDE?
[12:17] <jussio1> no
[12:18] <MelisU> jussio1: What are the major differences?
[12:19] <ScottK> We should have a wiki page on that, if we don't already.
[12:19] <jussio1> yeah, agreed
[12:19] <jussio1> bit hard off the top of your head
[12:19] <MelisU> Riddell: 4.3.3 installed without a hitch
[12:20] <MelisU> Riddell: Log out / log in? Reboot? What next?
[12:20]  * ScottK delegates making of the wiki page to jussio1.
[12:21] <jussio1> ScottK: not going to happen for at least 4-6 weeks.
[12:21] <MelisU> BTW I really like the Timelord stuff, guys.
[12:21]  * jussio1 is attempting to finish his thesis, so anything new isnt going to happen until thats done
[12:21] <MelisU> and girls :O
[12:22] <Tonio_> Sput: krunner should parse arora bookmarks too.... I have a friend of mine working on that right now
[12:22] <Sput> Tonio_: yeah, but I'd like to import my bookmarks file from konq into arora
[12:22] <Sput> so far, it craps out when trying that
[12:22] <Tonio_> ah...
[12:22] <Sput> well, last time I checked :)
[12:22] <Sput> even though it claims to support that format
[12:24] <Sput> Error when loading bookmarks on line 7, column 51:
[12:24] <Sput> Namespace prefix 'bookmark' not declared
[12:37] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: where did I add the helpingkubuntu url?
[12:38] <MelisU> Riddell: I rebooted and everything seems fine with 4.3.3
[12:38] <ghostcube> 4.3.3 o.O
[12:38] <ghostcube> o/
[12:39] <Riddell> MelisU: great
[12:39] <Riddell> jussio1: how's 4.3.3 for you?
[12:39] <Riddell> MelisU: oh, did you install the new plasma-widget-networkmanager too?
[12:39] <jussio1> Riddell: havent restarted x, but install went fine
[12:40] <MelisU> Riddell plasma-widget-networkmanager? Nope. ppa?
[12:40] <Riddell> MelisU: same PPA
[12:40] <Riddell> plasma-widget-networkmanagement
[12:40] <MelisU> Riddell: I just aptitude full-upgraded .. lets see
[12:41] <Riddell> MelisU: never mind, looks like it didn't get uploaded
[12:42] <MelisU> Riddell: kk, I want it though. network manager isn't auto connecting for me :)
[12:47] <Riddell> MelisU: I don't think that's changed
[12:47] <Riddell> ok let's move 4.3.3 over to updatse
[12:49]  * ghostcube still is on wicd :) doesnt trust knetwork manager hehe
[12:49] <ghostcube> but is 4.3.3 to be in staging ?
[12:49] <ghostcube> ah update
[12:49] <ghostcube> sorry
[12:50] <Riddell> I'm moving it to kubuntu backports
[12:50] <Riddell> ideally it would go into karmic-proposed and -updates
[12:50] <jussio1> yeah
[12:50] <jussio1> why arent you going with that?
[12:51]  * seele blinks
[12:51] <seele> is NOOB a folder used in /tmp during the upgrade process?
[12:52] <jussio1> seele: come again? o.O
[12:52] <ghostcube> whats NOOB
[12:52] <ghostcube> sounds lika an trojan for dummies
[12:52] <ghostcube> :D
[12:52] <jussio1> !noob
[12:52] <jussio1> hehe
[12:52] <Riddell> jussio1: needs tech board approval
[12:53] <jussio1> Riddell: ahh, right.
[12:53] <Riddell> seele: upgrader runs in a randomly named directory in /tmp
[12:53] <jussio1> seele: go buy a lottery ticket, you got lucky...
[12:53] <MelisU> randomly named  noob, jfgi, stfu, or rtfm
[12:54] <MelisU> :)
[12:54] <seele> seele@sebastien:/tmp/tmpN0O0B0$
[12:54] <seele> lol
[12:54] <jussio1> seele: nice :P
[12:54] <seele> i saw it flash for a second and was like "wait, what was that?"
[12:54] <jussio1> anyway, Im off.
[12:54] <jussio1> laters all.
[12:55]  * seele waves
[12:55] <jussio1> Riddell: please ping when 4.3.3 hits backports.
[13:01] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: oh, I guess it was somebody else. Since you were rewriting all the wikis I assumed it was you
[13:01] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: were?
[13:02] <JontheEchidna> the channel topic
[13:02] <apachelogger> well, I didnt add it anywere unless I was on crack and dont remember
[13:02] <apachelogger> yeah, that was not me :P
[13:04] <JontheEchidna> lol
[13:10] <Riddell> speaking of random wiki pages I have no idea what https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/TutorialsDay is about
[13:12] <ScottK> Riddell, apachelogger, JontheEchidna: jwisser showed up last night and is interested in Kubuntu marketing.  I warned him he might end up in charge very quickly.
[13:13] <apachelogger> Riddell: me neither
[13:13] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna, Riddell: timelord needs to establish a wiki spec
[13:13] <apachelogger> like have all kubuntu pages be part of a kubuntu category
[13:14] <apachelogger> or link them to some central overview page
[13:14] <apachelogger> currently the wiki is unable to manage content wise
[13:14] <ScottK> One catagory to rule them all.
[13:14]  * apachelogger asks jwisser to poke him when back
[13:18] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/GettingInvolved/Development now with pix
[13:18] <apachelogger> and linx
[13:18] <JontheEchidna> fanceh
[13:20] <apachelogger> hm
[13:20] <apachelogger> not fancy enough for the dictat0r it seems :|
[13:21] <JontheEchidna> lulz
[13:42] <jwisser_> apachelogger: I'm here for a brief moment, but I have a meeting in twenty.
[13:44] <apachelogger> oh wellz
[13:44] <apachelogger> jwisser_: any questions?
[13:45] <jwisser_> apachelogger: As I said last night, I have some reading to do before I consider myself in a position to ask a lot of questions. I guess the only questions are: 1) Is there really no one doing any marketing/promotion right now? and 2) There's really no money at all for promotion?
[13:47] <apachelogger> jwisser_: 1) "the german dudes" (aka the team of kubuntu-de.org) is doing conference presence, they usually maintain a booth at the larger linux/floss fairs/conferences in germany .. other than that there is pretty much nothing going on in promotion, let alone marketing
[13:47] <Riddell> JontheEchidna: Kubuntu/LucidKDEMerges doesn't point to Kubuntu/LucidPatchReview, I think filling in the patch review should be part of the merge
[13:47] <JontheEchidna> Riddell: sounds sensible
[13:48] <Riddell> as should sending a review of our delta with debian to debian
[13:48] <apachelogger> jwisser_: 2) since there was no one who worked on it, we never reallly to get hold of some ... emonkey just the other day recommended that we should open up some donation service, I suppose if we can do and actually do that, money from donations could flow into promotional efforts as well
[13:49] <jwisser_> apachelogger: It would be nice to have something to work with. Having a lot of evangelical users is definitely nice, but money tends to make things flow more smoothly.
[13:51] <apachelogger> jwisser_: well, we need a strong concept for that ... either way we have to talk this over with canonical, since they own the kubuntu trademark, so having a good concept is what we should start with
[13:51] <jwisser_> apachelogger: And that's where I need to do some reading and lurking. I want a very clear idea of what the Kubuntu community wants.
[13:52] <apachelogger> sounds very reasonable
[13:52] <jwisser_> Oh, another question: how badly do we want to go after small businesses?
[13:52] <jwisser_> In other words, are we willing to use a few hardline KDE-bleeding-edge-users in order to get small business interested?
[13:53] <ScottK> jwisser_: I think that's the next set of users to attack after we get our basic user base in order.
[13:53] <jwisser_> Because if so, priority number one needs to be stability, stability, perceived stability.
[13:53] <ScottK> jwisser_: With the next release being an LTS release, hopefully we can provide that.
[13:53] <jwisser_> Bingo.
[13:54] <jwisser_> But that's been my issue with Kubuntu in the past. The internals may be stable as all hell, but if the visuals don't represent that, your average (l)user and especially your small business people don't want any part of it.
[13:57] <jwisser_> apachelogger: I need to go to a meeting, but I'll be in and out all day. Sorry about my double presence; I forgot to log my home machine out before I left this morning.
[13:58] <apachelogger> no problemo
[13:59]  * apachelogger closes knode and starts ranting about people being unable to use proper subjects and read previous posts with similar subject
[14:03] <amik> a couple typos in GettingInvolved/Development: "get to know with Debian's finest", "thounds of people". cute page!
[14:05] <apachelogger> dpm: ultimate translations fix is still to be worked out, so that should not be taken too serious at this point, depends on too many variables that need to be poked
[14:05] <apachelogger> (only skimmed your mail)
[14:05] <Tonio_> apachelogger: the problem with a donation service is that there is the reality : Kubuntu is a community driven distro, and what people believe in : There's a company that drives the project
[14:06] <Tonio_> apachelogger: although kubuntu is more a mix between those 2 visions...
[14:06] <dpm> apachelogger, ok, thanks for the info. I just thought I'd give my view
[14:06] <Tonio_> apachelogger: I'm sure that opening a donation service would be very hardly criticized reguarding to this...
[14:07] <Tonio_> apachelogger: don't you think ?
[14:07] <Tonio_> brb...
[14:07] <apachelogger> so you donate to the company that finances the server without making too much income out of kubuntu
[14:08] <evod> hello, is there any place to get information about how to get a kubuntu developer (junior jobs?). I just read about project timelord, am a long-time kubuntu user and was wondering how I could participate. Also since I will finish my computer science master in < 1 month it is time to look for a job.. how is the situation with kubuntu regarding this? are you all working on kubuntu in your spare time or are there companies (canonical?) paying
[14:08] <evod>  you? .. many questions :)
[14:08] <dpm> apachelogger, and wanted to make sure that you guys know that the translations team is there to help with any of the issues
[14:08] <Tonio_> smarter: hey !
[14:08] <smarter> hey Tonio_ :)
[14:09] <apachelogger> dpm: I for one am aware of that, but there is only so much the translation team can do without having to digg into the sources to e.g. fix desktop file translations
[14:10] <apachelogger> there are issues at multiple levels, they might be closed pretty much for karmic but they will naturally re-appear since the way ubuntu's localization system works is the ultimate patch
[14:10] <apachelogger> and by definition patches are evil :P
[14:11] <apachelogger>  the issue at large is too complex to define one single solution anyway
[14:12] <JontheEchidna> new kdevelop beta out, nice.
[14:15] <dpm> apachelogger, that might be partly addressed with the new focus of the LP team: upstream integration. The first step will be importing translations from src package branches with bzr imports, but they will first focus on intltool-based packages
[14:15] <dpm> so I'm not sure if this will be beneficial in the short term
[14:15] <dpm> to KDE src packages
[14:16] <apachelogger> don't think so, IIRC we only need to do magic in kde-l10n-* to get the imports going
[14:16] <ScottK> evod: Welcom.
[14:16] <ScottK> Welcome even
[14:17] <ScottK> evod: How about https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/GettingInvolved/Development
[14:17] <apachelogger> dpm: that said, current import system contributes its parts... it imports all and any po/pot it can find, which forces us to add a custom rule to packages that include pot files that should not be imported
[14:18] <apachelogger> such as the hacks.pot in kdeartwork or where it was
[14:18] <dpm> right
[14:18] <apachelogger> there is no telling when which upstream will add a pot to the src of what application, so that issues can possibly come back again and waste translators time
[14:18] <evod> ScottK: thanks, I just found it and I am browsing through
[14:18] <apachelogger> dpm: to just name one example :)
[14:19] <evod> ScottK: what about the job-aspect? e.g. are you working fulltime for kubuntu?
[14:19] <ScottK> evod: No.  Almost all of us are here as volunteers.
[14:22] <evod> wow! but bad news, I would really like to work fulltime for an open source project..
[14:22] <evod> but I guess the bigger companies like novell or canonical pick the most active contributors and pay them if they are lucky?
[14:24] <apachelogger> without any open source history it will be jolly hard to get a job to work on an open source project
[14:24] <ScottK> They have hiring processes like any other company.  Sometimes it results in people getting hired from the community, sometimes not.
[14:24] <apachelogger> unless you were manager at MS and know all them fancy MS strategies
[14:25] <apachelogger> common hiring question: "do I do internal promotion or look for some external applicant"
[14:26] <apachelogger> since an associated open source project can mostly be considered part of the company anyway, in terms of knowing your way around
[14:28] <amik> evod: good questions, I was wondering about this too... same dilemmas (but +10 years programming experience :-) )
[14:29] <evod> :) the only thing I have is some Qt experience since I already did 2 projects with it.. but well. I guess I'm young and it's time to start contributing and looking for a "proper" job
[14:29] <amik> some of u guys seem to be here practically full-time... how do u make a living?
[14:30] <ScottK> Some are student.
[14:30] <ScottK> student/students
[14:30] <ScottK> I multi-task well.
[14:30] <jjesse> so of us idle here during work
[14:31] <amik> jjesse: hehe... so u get paid for contributing, only the sponsors don't know it :-)
[14:34] <_Altaira_> Hi guys I would like to contribute to timelord project
[14:35] <Riddell> holy guacamole
[14:35] <Riddell> this is the best recruiting driver we've had in ages
[14:35] <JontheEchidna> :3
[14:37] <claydoh> Riddell: looks like you just had to ask <3
[14:38] <agateau> kmail indicator patch submitted upstream http://reviewboard.kde.org/r/2060/
[14:38]  * jjesse hasn't even had a chance to get caught up on projtect timeload
[14:38]  * agateau is looking for his bulletproof vest
[14:39] <Riddell> agateau: have you e-mailed them too?  I don't think reviewboard does anything much on its own
[14:40] <agateau> Riddell: if the kdepim group is setup like the kdelibs one, I hope it will send mails to kdepim mailing list
[14:40] <JontheEchidna> _Altaira_: what are you interested in doing?
[14:40] <amik> what programming stuff r u kubuntu devs working on that ins't KDE?
[14:41] <_Altaira_> jon: code or documentation
[14:43] <_Altaira_> jon: translation too
[14:43] <JontheEchidna> Documentation is in need of attention in both KDE and Kubuntu
[14:43] <txwikinger> Riddell: Are we preparing any blueprints for UDS?
[14:44] <JontheEchidna> Our documentation coordinator, nixternal, is away cycling around the US now, but maybe jjesse can show you the ropes
[14:44] <JontheEchidna> Outside of KDE things, Kubuntu does maintain several tools on its own
[14:44] <JontheEchidna> There's the Qt port of the Ubuntu language selector app
[14:44] <JontheEchidna> the KDE port of jockey (jockey-kde)
[14:45] <jjesse> nixternal and i are working on redoing the structure of the kubuntu docs for lucid
[14:45] <JontheEchidna> We also are the main developers of the printer-applet and system-config-printer-kde tools inside of KDE itself
[14:45] <jjesse> i can show you the ropes for now of the odcs
[14:45] <jjesse> haha docs :)
[14:46] <_Altaira_> jjesse: great
[14:48] <dpm> jjesse, I'm happy to hear that (kubuntu-docs restructuring). We should talk about including the translations in the docs packages as well at some point
[14:48] <jjesse> dp yes we should
[14:48] <ScottK> And we still have approximately zero documentation for plasma-netbook.  That's a green field for documentation work.
[14:48] <jjesse> ScottK: do you think we need to create a seperate doc for kubuntu-netbook or just create plasma-netbook documentation and do it through kde-docs?
[14:49] <ScottK> Probably the latter.
[15:01] <jwisser_> How complete (or not) is the documentation? I have a tendency to ignore it and cowboy my way through on any platform, so I haven't checked.
[15:03] <JontheEchidna> mostly things are just woefully out of date
[15:03] <jwisser_> From what little I have seen, that seems to be a pandemic problem in FOSS projects.
[15:04] <jjesse> a lot of the kde docs are out of date or on kde3
[15:05] <jwisser_> ScottK: Why is the Netbook image so large? Stuff that hasn't been stripped out yet?
[15:07] <ScottK> jwisser_: Since most people install from USB, we didn't stick to the same hard 700MB limit that Kubuntu uses due to CD size limitations.  This let us ship all available language packs, plus some games and Edu stuff.
[15:08] <jwisser_> Hmmm. I guess my main concern is how much space does that all take up on the netbook HD when uncompressed?
[15:10] <ScottK> Not much more than a regular install.  Most of the delta is language packs and at most one of those will be installed
[15:10] <jwisser_> ScottK: Okay. That makes sense. I apologise in advance, because it's likely that I'll ask some pretty idiotic questions while learning my way around everything.
[15:11] <ScottK> jwisser_: No problem.  That's a common question.  I ought to add it to a FAQ somewhere
[15:11] <ScottK> If only I had a FAQ for netbook ...
[15:12] <jwisser_> I'm currently installing KNE in a VM. I have to say, it looks terrific.
[15:15] <jwisser_> ScottK: Another one for the FAQ—which hardware is best and least supported under KNE?
[15:17] <ScottK> jwisser_: Any netbook with at least 576 pixels in screen height should work fine.
[15:18] <ScottK> General hardware support will be the same as the general Ubuntu repos.
[15:36] <ScottK> Can someome check and see if the .desktop for systemsettings is properly translated for Italian in our packages?
[15:38]  * Quintasan feels like doing a merge
[15:39] <Riddell> Quintasan: take your pick https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/LucidKDEMerges
[15:41] <Quintasan> Riddell: okay, I guess Ill start with small ones since I haven't done a merge yet
[15:42] <Riddell> Quintasan: try kdetoys, that's dead small
[15:42] <Quintasan> okay
[15:44] <lontra> two questions ... 1) will the KDE indicator applet be able to work with thunderbird in the future? Kontact just has never worked right for me. 2) Any chances of seeing a Qt based Ubuntu Software Center in the future?
[15:45] <Riddell> agateau: 1) for you maybe
[15:45] <Riddell> 2) well if someone ports it, any features you want or just the nicer UI?
[15:46] <lontra> no it would just be nice to see consistency across the desktops .. i know it's ubuntu's fault for making everything in GTK ... they could play a little nicer
[15:46] <lontra> i actually just use konsole and apt-get anyways
[15:46] <agateau> lontra: no one is working on adding indicator support for thunderbird at the moment, as far as I know :/
[15:46] <lontra> agateau: should i file a bug report?
[15:47] <agateau> lontra: please do, but look around as it has probably already been requested
[15:47] <lontra> agateau: ok thanks ... what should i file it against if i end up needing to?
[15:48] <agateau> lontra: thunderbird i think
[15:48] <lontra> oh OK
[15:48] <agateau> (but I'm still no launchpad expert)
[15:50] <ulysses__> Can I have a question? Will be KDE 4.3.3 in Karmic (not backports)?
[15:50] <lontra> agateau: fyi ... https://bugs.launchpad.net/thunderbird/+bug/367175
[15:51] <ScottK> ulysses__: Open question.  We need tech board permission and I'm working on asking for it.
[15:51] <ulysses__> ScottK: Thanks for the answer.
[15:52] <lontra> also i got to be honest kpackagekit is pretty confusing ... you have to click on the arrow to install? maybe i'm just slow
[15:54] <lontra> also contrary to what lots of folks say ... i think you guys are doing a great job of integrating kde
[16:06] <Quintasan> hmm, anyone here has AMD Phenom X4?
[16:12] <Doc_exe> at home I do
[16:15] <Quintasan> Doc_exe: any problems with it? I'm not so keen on paying ~500$ for Intel i5/7
[16:15] <Doc_exe> no problems whats so ever... runs like a champ
[16:16] <jwisser> ScottK: Color me stupid, but is there a way to place widgets side by side in the Newspaper view on KNE?
[16:16] <jwisser> Or to move them around at all?
[16:16] <Quintasan> Doc_exe: thanks
[16:16] <ScottK> jwisser: Click on the "Newspaper" tab on the right side near the top
[16:18] <jwisser> ScottK: Aha. A case of being used to different metaphors, I think.
[16:23] <lontra> by the way, i thought the systray autohides applications? it doesn't appear to here
[16:23] <JontheEchidna> it only has manual hide at the moment
[16:24] <lontra> i see
[16:25] <lontra> agateau: would this allow me to use the indicator applet with TB ... https://launchpad.net/libnotify-mozilla/+download
[16:25] <agateau> lontra: no, but it would give you Plasma notifications for Thunderbird
[16:31] <lontra> agateau: thanks
[16:35] <claydoh> Riddell: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GraphicalInstall/Kubuntu
[16:36] <Riddell> claydoh: cor
[16:37] <Riddell> claydoh: didn't I ask  ulysees to do that?
[16:37] <claydoh> I dunno
[16:37] <claydoh> but I said I was working on it yesterday
[16:37] <claydoh> i think
[16:39] <Riddell> claydoh: all very rocking, I'll update the release announce to link to that
[16:39] <Riddell> but we should make sure to check with ulysees when he reappears that he's not doing it too
[16:39] <claydoh> Riddell: ok
[16:40] <Riddell> I think we need a little kubuntu logo next to the "for installing kubuntu" link on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GraphicalInstall
[16:41] <claydoh> the ubuntu install page needs updating, our screenies look much nicer
[16:43] <claydoh> Riddell: got one, or a link perhaps?
[16:44] <Riddell> claydoh: maybe the wee one of the left next to "Home, About" etc https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
[16:52] <ScottK> So I was bored last night and determined that the top 10 uploaders in Karmic uploaded more packages than the bottom 375.
[16:53]  * JontheEchidna came in 12th for lucid
[16:53] <JontheEchidna> *kermic
[16:53] <JontheEchidna> *karmic
[16:54] <Riddell> ScottK: who was top?
[16:54] <JontheEchidna> Riddell: you, of course. mr kde-l10n-* uploader :)
[16:54] <Quintasan> are we talking about apachelogger?
[16:54]  * Riddell does the I'm top of ubuntu dance
[16:54] <ScottK> 1	Jonathan Riddell (684 packages)
[16:55] <Quintasan> moar cookies for Riddell please
[16:55] <Riddell> claydoh: the booting from CD section really needs more info, most computers won't boot from CD without being propted
[16:55]  * ScottK slacked off from last time.
[16:55] <ScottK> 8	Scott Kitterman (303 packages)
[16:55]  * ScottK was #7 for Jaunty
[16:56] <Riddell> claydoh: trouble is it's different for every bios but some hints of press F11, Esc, F10, thinkvantage etc until something works might be better than nothing
[16:56] <Quintasan> well, I don't want to boast, but I was #over9000 ;)
[16:57] <Quintasan> oh, #over9000 is sure nice channel :D
[16:57] <Quintasan> just wondering, who is doing the toolchain work for ubuntu+1>
[16:57] <Quintasan> ?*
[16:58] <JontheEchidna> http://gas.nenanet.it/karmic-rank.txt <- for the curious
[16:58] <Riddell> Quintasan: doko does that
[16:58] <JontheEchidna> the second column iss the interesting part ;-)
[16:58] <JontheEchidna> 12	Jonathan Thomas (204 packages)
[16:58] <Quintasan> lol, I'm #100 :D
[16:59]  * Quintasan didn't expect to find himself on the list
[16:59] <ScottK> Quintasan: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-toolchain/+members but as Riddell says, mostly doko
[17:00] <Quintasan> toolchain == srs business == high pressure IMO
[17:02] <ScottK> It's always 'fun' when the development release gets so borked it has to be fixed and then manually bootstapped again in the buildds/
[17:02] <ScottK> Only happened once last cycle, which is not bad.
[17:02] <JontheEchidna> I think I remember that. It was 'fun'
[17:03] <JontheEchidna> bad coreutils merge or something iirc
[17:05] <Riddell> back when I was a lad X broke with every upload, now that was fun
[17:06]  * JontheEchidna played xboing and xbill on a DE-lacking X environment on a 386 when he was a lad
[17:08] <Riddell> hmm, dh_sameversiondeps, looks like we can get rid of that we don't seem to use it
[17:08] <JontheEchidna> and I still like xboing better than kbreakout, even though the former is 10 years old
[17:08] <apachelogger> omg
[17:08] <apachelogger> I only had 11 uploads
[17:09] <apachelogger> that is even worse than nixternal
[17:09] <JontheEchidna> 11 signed, 69 uploads for you
[17:09]  * JontheEchidna missed the second list too
[17:09] <apachelogger> ah
[17:09] <JontheEchidna> signed == sponsored?
[17:09] <apachelogger> possibly
[17:09] <Riddell> yes
[17:10] <apachelogger> anyhow
[17:10] <apachelogger> that needs to change
[17:10] <apachelogger> to the batcave
[17:10] <apachelogger> oh, too late for that
[17:10] <apachelogger> to the revu
[17:11] <Quintasan> how come I have moar packages uploaded than apachelogger?
[17:11]  * JontheEchidna is playing xboing, oh noes
[17:12] <apachelogger> Quintasan: cause I was away the better part of the cycle
[17:12] <Quintasan> ahh
[17:12] <Quintasan> still, I'm lower in the rank than you :D
[17:13] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: "when he as a lad", you mean last week?
[17:13] <Quintasan> q
[17:13] <Quintasan> grr
[17:13] <JontheEchidna> >10 yrs old
[17:13] <JontheEchidna> er, less than
[17:15] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: Signed = changed by != signed by.  I my case that's all uploads due to LP being funky about how it determines changed by.
[17:15] <ScottK> Mostly it means sponsored
[17:20] <apachelogger> aye
[17:20] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: can I haz dh7 for kmuddy
[17:20] <apachelogger> its kinda pointless to have a dep on cdbs even though all is already available for dh7
[17:21] <JontheEchidna> we have kde dh7 support already?
[17:21] <JontheEchidna> I thought we needed a newer pkg-kde-tools for that
[17:21] <Quintasan> JontheEchidna: do  I need to file a bug to get a merge?
[17:21] <apachelogger> nah
[17:22] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: ktorrent for example does use it
[17:23] <Riddell> I merged in the dh7 stuff half way through karmic
[17:23] <JontheEchidna> still needs moar lgpl at any rate
[17:23] <JontheEchidna> oh, neat
[17:24] <apachelogger> karma of the day: moar lgpl for the src!
[17:24] <apachelogger> oh
[17:24] <apachelogger> one moar for the road
[17:24] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: also needs gfdl
[17:24] <apachelogger> doc/ is licensed gpl and fdl
[17:25] <apachelogger> &underGPL;
[17:25] <apachelogger> &underFDL;
[17:26] <Quintasan> hurr durr, forgot to forward ports
[17:26] <apachelogger> Riddell: what is the deal with qt-sdk on revu?
[17:27] <mcas> jwisser: ping
[17:27] <Riddell> apachelogger: it can be archived, it's in karmic
[17:28] <apachelogger> Riddell: is it supposed to be a native pkg btw?
[17:29] <Quintasan> http://hs.quintasan.pl/debdiffs.tar.gz -> debdiffs for merge for kdetoys, I'm out for 20 minutes
[17:29] <claydoh> Riddell: logo added :)
[17:30] <Riddell> apachelogger: yes
[17:31] <apachelogger> oki :)
[17:31] <Riddell> claydoh: perfect :)
[17:31] <Riddell> claydoh: the perpare disk space screenshot is strangely fuzzy (also see my previous comments about booting from CD)
[17:34] <Riddell> hmm, should we use lzma by default with kde.mk as well as debian-qt-kde.mk ?
[17:35] <Riddell> I don't see why not
[17:35] <JontheEchidna> I think the plan was to experiment with debian-qt-kde.mk then decide what to do
[17:35] <JontheEchidna> it's worked out fine from what I can tell
[17:35]  * apachelogger wanted to extend in karmic already
[17:36] <apachelogger> but eventually we were closish to release and I didnt want to go QA it :P
[17:36] <jussio1> hhrrr, whoever maintains rekonq daily... dpkg: error processing /var/cache/apt/archives/rekonq-daily_091103-karmic1-git33544635e29bfd6fa3656b0e9817d1d08a37248f_amd64.deb (--unpack):
[17:36] <jussio1>  trying to overwrite '/usr/bin/rekonq', which is also in package rekonq 0:0.2.0-0ubuntu1-git091024-1
[17:37] <Quintasan> lol :D
[17:37] <Riddell> I'll add lzma to debhelper/kde.mk too then
[17:37] <ScottK> jussio1: What PPA?
[17:37] <apachelogger> where is awen?
[17:37] <Riddell> it's rekonq upstream Andrea Diamanti
[17:38] <apachelogger> Riddell: aye, needs to be added to both cdbs and dh7 kde.mk
[17:38] <apachelogger> though
[17:38] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: whatever happened to that alexander kopf minion you used ot have?
[17:38] <apachelogger> maybe we should move it to variables.mk all along
[17:38] <ScottK> Someone should teach him about replaces and conflicts
[17:38] <apachelogger> also
[17:38] <apachelogger> I think the code in debian-qt-kde.mk is cdbs centric
[17:38] <apachelogger> ah
[17:38] <apachelogger> *shurg*
[17:38] <apachelogger> thinking hurts today
[17:39] <apachelogger> got all depressed from working with a genious master mind
[17:39] <Riddell> yet another "how do I help" request on kubuntu-devel, how's the new Helping docs coming along?
[17:39] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: last one is for you
[17:39] <JontheEchidna> the last what?
[17:39] <apachelogger> Riddell: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/GettingInvolved/Development
[17:39] <apachelogger> Riddell: if you care to give opinion :(
[17:39] <apachelogger> :) even
[17:39] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: sentence
[17:39] <apachelogger> or message
[17:40] <JontheEchidna> ah, ok
[17:40]  * apachelogger got too much earl grey again
[17:41] <apachelogger> Riddell: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/GettingInvolved is the master page ... IMHO the subpaging makes loads of sense since one needs to elaborate a bit a bout the specifics anyway
[17:42] <apachelogger> debian/copyright: I suggest you use the new copyright format, it is easier to write and read, and more correct. See: http://dep.debian.net/deps/dep5/
[17:42] <apachelogger> ubuntu is like intel
[17:42] <apachelogger> recommended draft standards so they can push them faster through the approval
[17:43] <apachelogger> them nasty lobbyists
[17:48] <Quintasan> !info kid3 lucid
[17:49] <Quintasan> hmm
[17:49] <Quintasan> 1.3 upstream
[17:54] <ScottK> apachelogger: I disagree about the copyright format.  It's more complex and has more stuff to go wrong.  Also since the format isn't finalized, it's hard to know if it will need to be redone once it is.
[17:54] <apachelogger> ScottK: yeah, that is a quote from a revu page
[17:54] <ScottK> No reason someone can't use it if they don't want to, but I'm not a fan.
[17:54] <apachelogger> s/revu page/revu comment
[17:57]  * Riddell throws out http://people.canonical.com/~jriddell/merges/pkg-kde-tools_0.5.2ubuntu1.debdiff
[18:08]  * Sput reports: Gentoo has packaged Quassel with optional Ayatana support now
[18:08] <Sput> so I might finally test that code agateau has sneaked into our codebase :)
[18:14] <jjesse> yay for quassel and ayatana support :)
[18:15] <Quintasan> Riddell: dunno if someone bothered to check my debdiff but in case -> http://quintasan.dyndns.org/debdiffs.tar.gz - debdiffs for kdetoys
[18:16] <Riddell> Quintasan: I'm onto it
[18:16] <Quintasan> Riddell: almost no changes :P
[18:16]  * Quintasan is out for english lessons
[18:16] <Riddell> http://www.kubuntu.org/news/kde-4.3.3 published
[18:21] <Riddell> hmm, we need to get the phonon/qt merge sorted toot sweet
[18:21] <JontheEchidna> I'm all prepared for upload
[18:21] <JontheEchidna> phonon-wise
[18:22] <Riddell> but no lex around yet with qt
[18:22] <JontheEchidna> guess not
[18:24] <claydoh> Riddell: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GraphicalInstall/Kubuntu fixed up
[18:26] <Riddell> claydoh: groovy
[18:26] <claydoh> Riddell: 4.3.3 announcement, is the repo line correct? it says jaunty
[18:26] <Riddell> doh
[18:27] <claydoh> :)
[18:27] <claydoh> thats my line
[18:27] <Riddell> fixed
[18:27] <Riddell> claydoh: should you still be in a docs mood, a help wiki page to take people through installing from a repository like that would be very useful
[18:28] <jwisser> mcas: ping
[18:28] <claydoh> Riddell: ok
[18:28] <mcas> jwisser: hi
[18:29] <Mamarok> hm, is that PPA line correct in the article? It says jaunty for 9.10
[18:29] <jwisser> mcas: What's up?
[18:29] <Riddell> Mamarok: waiting on cache update to fix
[18:29] <Mamarok> ok, thx :=
[18:29] <Riddell> Quintasan: kdetoys merge is good but some comments
[18:29] <mcas> apachelogger: told me you are the guy for marketing?
[18:29] <Riddell> Quintasan: you should be merginf from 4.3.3 which is in bzr (and the PPA)
[18:30] <mcas> i want to help you out with this
[18:30] <Riddell> Quintasan: the Uploaders: line is in the diff but doesn't look any different, whitespace issues?
[18:30] <Riddell> Quintasan: there's a couple of Section: lines added, generally we'd stay with what Debian uses there so no need to add them
[18:30] <claydoh> Riddell: I'll update this page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories/Kubuntu
[18:31] <Riddell> Quintasan: (unless the changelog gives a good reason why they were added)
[18:31] <Riddell> Quintasan: debian's entry for 4:4.3.1-1 seems to have disappeared from the changelog
[18:31] <Mamarok> Riddell: ok, changed the line here, but there is nothing showing up, the key is still the same, isn't it?
[18:31] <jwisser> mcas: If you're talking to me, I got here yesterday, so I've not go much seniority. What's your background?
[18:32] <Riddell> Quintasan: you say "Standards-Version changed to 3.8.3" but that's not changed since debian
[18:32] <Riddell> Mamarok: don't you already have the packaging from staging?
[18:32] <jwisser> *not got
[18:32] <Riddell> Quintasan: your changelog doesn't mention the replaces/conflicts on -kde4 packages
[18:32] <Riddell> Quintasan: able to fix those up?
[18:32] <Mamarok> hm, seems not, I only just added the PPA back, I didn't activate it earlier, since this is a fresh isntall
[18:34] <Riddell> claydoh: that's the one.  that page is a mess, it has some screenshots from adept still
[18:34] <mcas> jwisser: i am from kubuntu-de.org and have little expirience from our booths
[18:35] <apachelogger> jwisser: you are only here since yesterday and I already consider you the marketing guru, that is one awesome career, dont you think? ;)
[18:35] <jwisser> apachelogger: I'm liking it.
[18:35] <mcas> :-)
[18:37] <apachelogger> Riddell: did you look at the getting involved with development page?
[18:37] <Riddell> apachelogger: it's on my todo list
[18:37] <jwisser> mcas: I'm still trying to get clear on exactly how Kubuntu has done marketing; what specifically did you do at the booths?
[18:37] <apachelogger> ok
[18:37]  * apachelogger plays some world of goo
[18:39] <mcas> are you a real marketing guy?
[18:39] <mcas> i helped out with support etc.
[18:40] <Mamarok> oh my, Launchpad is getting worse and worse, I can't find stuff anymore, where has thze PPA key link gone?
[18:40] <jussio1> !gpgerr | Mamarok
[18:41] <jussio1> it gives you the keyword in the error in sudo apt-get update ;)
[18:43] <Mamarok> jussio1: thx, that I knew already, I was just suprised that one has to click on a tiny drop-down menu to get the deb lines and find the key link, Launchpad usabilit is really not iproving :(
[18:43] <Mamarok> +m
[18:47] <ghostcube> wow update day hehe
[18:47] <ghostcube> o.o
[18:48] <Mamarok> strange, nothing shows up here
[18:49] <ghostcube> i opened proposed
[18:49] <ghostcube> 210MB
[18:49] <ghostcube> :)
[18:49] <ghostcube> btw why is google showing wallace and grommit picture o.O
[18:51] <ghostcube> Mamarok: http://pastie.org/683564
[18:51] <Mamarok> but I know why nothing is showing up:
[18:52] <ScottK> Kubuntu Netbook on for Open Week in 8 minutes.
[18:52] <Mamarok> Riddel, check that link in the article, it's wrong, that is not the backport link
[18:52] <Mamarok> Riddell: ^
[18:54] <Mamarok> the link in the article is 'deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/kubuntu-ppa/ppa/ubuntu karmic main', but it should read 'deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/kubuntu-ppa/backports/ubuntu karmic main'
[18:54] <Mamarok> no wonder nothing was coming
[18:57] <ghostcube> hehe
[18:59]  * Mamarok waits for somebody to correct that typo so she can put it in the topic of #kubuntu
[19:01] <ghostcube> :)
[19:01] <ghostcube> good i mentioned the update day eh
[19:01] <ghostcube> heh
[19:03]  * ghostcube remembers first release of 4.0  o.o and looks at 4.3.3 and still didnt get how far its now :D
[19:05] <firephoto> isn't there some sort of ppa:foo-is-here thing for karmic now? if so it's worth mentioning in 4.3.3 news along with the full ppa address (when it gets corrected)
[19:21] <Lex79> Riddell: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-members/qt/ubuntu/revision/28
[19:23] <Riddell> ulysses__: claydoh kubuntu-ified the graphicalinstall guide so no need for you to do so
[19:23] <Riddell> Lex79: that's more like it :)
[19:23] <Riddell> Lex79: do you think it's ready?  should I review it?
[19:24] <Lex79> nope, shoul rewrite rules for pot files :(
[19:24] <ulysses__> Riddell: okay:( I was too slow
[19:24] <Riddell> ulysses__: there's plenty more like it if you're interested
[19:24] <Lex79> Riddell: we have hurry? :)
[19:25] <Riddell> Lex79: well a bit, it would be nice to have the phonon/qt packages sorted for the sake of the rest
[19:25] <Riddell> also agateau needs 4.6 packages for his hacking
[19:26] <Mamarok> Riddell: did you see my question earlier?
[19:26] <Riddell> Mamarok: what's that?
[19:27] <Mamarok> well, the link in the article is wrong, that's not the backports link
[19:27] <Riddell> humph, we need to fix that template
[19:27] <Riddell> Mamarok: updated, pending cache
[19:27] <Mamarok> Riddell: thx :)
[19:28]  * Mamarok goes updating the #kubuntu topic then :)
[19:40] <JontheEchidna> I think we could upload phonon-backends now if we can get qt4-x11 built before the auto-syncs start
[19:41] <JontheEchidna> the main thing is that the transitional packages are moving from phonon to qt, so any debian packages that still use the phonon transitional packages would FTBFS if the merged Qt wasn't present
[19:46] <Lex79> JontheEchidna: what should I do? just add phonon metapackage like Debian?
[19:47] <JontheEchidna> Lex79: yes, the phonon metapackage and the transitional packages (libphonon4, etc)
[19:47] <JontheEchidna> libphonon4 and libphonon-dev
[19:49] <Lex79> so, add libphonon4 transitional which depends on libqt4-phonon ? same thing for -dev ? all right ? :)
[19:49] <Riddell> no no
[19:49] <Riddell> libphonon4 isn't transitional in debian
[19:50] <Riddell> so we want our packages to become the transitional ones, libqt4-phonon and libqt4-phonon-dev
[19:50] <Riddell> and we want their packages to become the real ones libphonon-dev and libphonon4
[19:51] <JontheEchidna> ok
[19:51] <JontheEchidna> so we should just copy what debian did exactly for phonon in qt4-x11, then add transitional packages for the old ones
[19:51] <Riddell> yep
[19:52] <JontheEchidna> then I should be able to copy the debian changes in phonon-backends
[19:52] <Lex79> perfect, less work for me, thanks :P
[19:52] <JontheEchidna> do we want to keep the transitional packages in qt4-x11 or phonon?
[19:53] <JontheEchidna> s/phonon/phonon-backends
[19:54] <Riddell> in qt I think, that's where phonon is and where they are currently
[19:54] <JontheEchidna> ok
[19:57] <Lex79> this command "sudo add-apt-repository ppa:kubuntu-ppa/backports" is right for add backport ppa ?
[19:59] <Lex79> uhm yes :)
[19:59] <Riddell> ooh, I didn't know that
[20:00] <JontheEchidna> or add ppa:kubuntu-ppa/backports to software-properties-kde gui
[20:00] <Lex79> and the key is downloaded automatically now I think
[20:01] <JontheEchidna> yeah, it is
[20:01] <JontheEchidna> we could almost sync phonon-backends: http://paste.ubuntu.com/309866/
[20:01] <JontheEchidna> come 10.10 we probably can
[20:02] <JontheEchidna> oops, forgot to put the version back in the depend
[20:17] <ghostcube> o.O
[20:17] <ghostcube> hmm update worked but if you have proposed opened too you need a full reboot maybe
[20:17] <ghostcube> cause kdm hungs up
[20:18] <ghostcube> after logout
[20:38] <Quintasan> Riddell: I will give it another shot but not today since I'm low on time, I just found out I have a test tomorrow ^^'
[20:40] <cragdor> Does anyone know if project Time Lord has a channel yet?
[20:41] <jwisser> If it doesn't, it really should.
[20:42] <cragdor> Thanks, i'm looking at getting back into developing on linux
[20:42] <cragdor> Its been far too long
[20:42] <jjesse> why would timelord be seperate from this one?
[20:42] <ryanakca> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/GettingInvolved/Development contradicts itself in the Ninja section. For the requirements, pick one of: A) Basic packaging knowledge OR B) have considerable knowledge of Debian packaging and others know of this.
[20:42] <jwisser> In my opinion, because it's a superset of development and promotion.
[20:43] <Nightrose> splitting already scarce resources = very very bad
[20:43] <Nightrose> keep it here
[20:43] <jjesse> +1 to Nightrose
[20:43]  * ryanakca nods
[20:43]  * jwisser nods, too
[20:43] <cragdor> i agree
[20:44] <Nightrose> \o/
[20:44] <jjesse> besides the timelords are here on this channel arelady
[20:44] <Nightrose> let's all hug then
[20:44]  * jjesse shouts GROUP HUG
[20:44] <jwisser> Fair enough. As long as people aren't going to get upset if promotion-related topics come up in the dev channel. :-)
[20:44] <ryanakca> Waah, we lost kubotu
[20:44] <jjesse> doh
[20:44] <Nightrose> GROUP HUG!
[20:44] <cragdor> lol
[20:45] <ryanakca> jwisser: I think they're a required aspect of Kubuntu development, what's the point of doing the work if nobody knows about it :)
[20:45] <jwisser> ryanakca: Could not agree more.
[20:46]  * ryanakca goes back to trying to find a DD to upload knmap to Debian
[20:46] <cragdor> any of you got a prefered development setup, i'm use to using VM's for work(Windows :( ) but am open to try different setups on my home rig(Linux :) )
[20:50] <Lex79> JontheEchidna: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-members/qt/ubuntu/revision/29
[20:56] <Lex79> brb
[21:07] <nookie^> good evening
[21:07] <JontheEchidna> Lex79: looks good
[21:08] <ScottK> Good evening nookie^.
[21:08] <Quintasan> nookie^: hiho
[21:08] <Quintasan> cragdor: do you use pbuilder?
[21:11] <Quintasan> cragdor: well, if you are not please consider using it -> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/PbuilderHowto - a nice howto to help you start using it :)
[21:12] <cragdor> No i don't i'm litterally in the doorway looking at starting dev
[21:12] <cragdor> well dev on kubuntu
[21:13] <Quintasan> well, good luck, we have many experienced developers here so you can poke them :P
[21:14] <cragdor> Yeah, hopefully i can be some use and transfer some of my work knowledge across, i use linux alot at home and it would be nice to give something back
[21:22] <cragdor> pbuilder should this be setup in a VM or does it work like jails in gentoo? (Don't really want to destabilize the main OS while i have plenty of resource to VM)
[21:23] <ScottK> cragdor: It's similar to a jail.
[21:23] <cragdor> ScottK: thanks
[22:05] <apachelogger> oh my oh my
[22:06] <apachelogger> all the world wants to become haxx0rs but no one wants to do translations or stuff :P
[22:07] <freinhard> just saw the post about kde 4.3.3 on kubuntu.org. i thought minor bugfix releases would get into the main karmic-updates repositories?
[22:08] <apachelogger> not yet approved
[22:08] <apachelogger> ScottK is working on it AFAIK
[22:09] <freinhard> good to know and good for kubuntu
[22:12]  * ScottK has started.  It was on the TODO for today, but didn't (yet) get done.
[22:12] <apachelogger> http://kubuntuforums.net/forums/index.php?topic=3107710
[22:16] <ScottK> "Kubuntu, it fits your style."
[22:16] <apachelogger> "Kubuntu, with them good looking developers"
[22:16] <apachelogger> ohh
[22:16] <apachelogger> too long
[22:17] <apachelogger> claydoh: wanna work on the gettinginvolved pages? ;)
[22:18]  * apachelogger also notes that considerations about good getting people involved as well as finding a suitable activity for someone is a quite interesting topic that should be researched in depth
[22:19] <apachelogger> ScottK: are you very busy today?
[22:19]  * ScottK also votes for a rule that when anyone new shows up, someone makes it a priority to welcome them.
[22:20] <ScottK> apachelogger: I have ~25 minutes before I have to retrieve the youngest from daycare and about 4 hours of $WORK not done yet.
[22:20] <ScottK> Other than that, no.
[22:20] <apachelogger> ScottK: would be cool if you could blog some lines about timelord
[22:20] <ScottK> Maybe after the tech board thing.
[22:21]  * ScottK finally got UDS travel reservations checked off the list today.
[22:21] <apachelogger> sure, just need some buzz :)
[22:21] <apachelogger> hum hum, that UDS without apachelogger :P
[22:22] <ScottK> apachelogger: jwisser is in charge of buzz.
[22:22] <ScottK> Doing an open week session sucked all the buzz out of me for today.
[22:22] <apachelogger> ScottK: so you want jwisser to tell you to blog? :P
[22:22] <jwisser> apachelogger: I get home, and the first thing I see is my name. What's up?
[22:23] <Sput> it's on the doorbell plate, probably?
[22:23] <ScottK> jwisser: We elected you king of marketing while you were at work.
[22:23] <Sput> your name, I mean
[22:23] <jwisser> Sput: Hah.
[22:23] <jwisser> Shiny.
[22:24] <jwisser> ScottK: I seem to have a giant gaping hole in my log at the moment; why am I telling apachelogger to blog? :-P
[22:24] <apachelogger> no no
[22:24] <apachelogger> you are telling ScottK to blog
[22:24] <apachelogger> because ScottK refuses to blog since I told him to blog
[22:24] <ScottK> jwisser: No, you're telling me to blog about Timelord.
[22:24] <jwisser> Oh. Sorry, apparently work fried my brain.
[22:24] <apachelogger> so obviously someone who is in charge of buzz must tell him to blog
[22:24] <jwisser> Please blog about Timelord.
[22:24]  * apachelogger got lost in that story
[22:25]  * ScottK marks it on TODO
[22:26]  * ScottK hands apachelogger a cookie and asks him to answer the nice people on kde-devel that except for the little widget we needed because of Ubuntu patching non-KDE stuff, there's no Ayatana code running by default in Kubuntu that isn't already in KDE svn.
[22:26] <apachelogger> if I find the thread
[22:26]  * Sput still hasn't tried out Ayatana
[22:27] <Sput> but at least I can now that we've packaged the stuff
[22:27] <Sput> which, btw, was a PITA because the optional gtk support isn't really optional in the build system :P
[22:27] <jwisser> So where can I go to find out exactly what it is that everyone is doing? The wiki? LP?
[22:27] <ScottK> It's kind of organized chaos.
[22:27] <ScottK> Once you hang around for a while it makes sense.
[22:28] <jwisser> Also, funny story, I installed kubuntu-desktop on an instance of Ubuntu 9.10 and now it doesn't want to let me connect to my network.
[22:28] <jwisser> On the KDE side, I mean.
[22:28] <ScottK> jwisser: Wireless with a hidden ssid?
[22:29] <apachelogger> ScottK: I suppose I can quote you on that ayatana statement?
[22:29] <jwisser> Nope. It sees the network. Just asks for the password again everytime I enter it correctly.
[22:29]  * apachelogger is wondering how people can say that timelord got a weird name
[22:29] <ScottK> apachelogger: Sure.  It's true.  I was careful.
[22:29] <ScottK> apachelogger: I even got my 2nd KDE svn committ ever making sure.
[22:30] <ScottK> apachelogger: I share their wish that Ayatana would stick to more relevant stuff.  I plan to bring it up at UDS.
[22:32] <apachelogger> we all do
[22:36] <Nightrose> ScottK: is there any hope in sight wrt hidden networks? i've had to ask 2 friends to unhide their network for me :(
[22:36] <ScottK> Nightrose: Installing the Gnome applet will give it to you right away.
[22:36] <apachelogger> hiding is no replacement for encryption! :P
[22:37] <ScottK> I think Riddell was chatting with upstream on this, but don't recall the details.
[22:37] <Nightrose> Riddell: any news?
[22:37]  * apachelogger notes that he met a dude the other day who really thought hiding the essid is more secure than WPA2
[22:37] <Nightrose> ScottK: yea - i'd rather not install anything more on the eeepc that i don't really really need
[22:37] <Nightrose> i have like less than 100 mb left
[22:37] <apachelogger> delete them entertainment videos :P
[22:37] <Nightrose> updating is a constant pita
[22:37] <Nightrose> apachelogger: *lol* i don't have any!
[22:37]  * ScottK stares at 91 pages of written by committee specification changes and weeps.
[22:38] <ulysses__> Where can i found the source code of Ayatana?
[22:38] <apachelogger> Nightrose: G ... get some :P
[22:38] <apachelogger> anyhow
[22:38] <apachelogger> -> bed
[22:38] <Nightrose> nini apachelogger
[22:38] <apachelogger> nighties
[22:38] <jwisser> G'night!
[22:39] <ScottK> ulysses__: It's a development project, not just a single package.
[22:39] <ScottK> Depends on what you want
[22:40] <ulysses__> one of my friends ask me, do I know anything about that:/
[22:44] <claydoh> apachelogger: what do we need?
[22:44]  * claydoh is hating wikis atm
[22:44] <claydoh> or rather they are hating him
[22:46] <ScottK> ulysses__: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana
[22:46] <ulysses__> thanks ScottK
[22:58] <claydoh> ok we have https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HelpingKubuntu
[22:58] <claydoh> but isn't this one better https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/GettingInvolved
[22:59] <ulysses__> good night
[22:59] <claydoh> HelpingKubuntu is rather a redundant page now, I would think
[23:01] <cragdor> Hey guys thanks alot again for pointing me in the right direction! I'm heading of as its late here!
[23:03] <claydoh> cragdor: thanks for stopping by!
[23:41] <seele> hmm.. Show Terminal >>> doesn't toggle correctly and it should be using different arrows
[23:43] <seele> also needs a spacer below the widgets
[23:43]  * seele makes notes for herself
[23:57] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: ^better?