[10:51] <mac_v> anyone knows how to remove the 1px border that the input boxes have?  http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1325768/Screenshot-The%20Widget%20Factory.png   nautilus doesnt seem to have it but the other inputboxes have it , it depends on the bg_color... :(
[10:53] <kwwii> so, maybe my irc client will work better now
[10:53] <mac_v> kwwii: any idea^?
[11:00] <kwwii> mac_v: sorry, I didn't see your last comment, my irc client was going crazy
[11:01] <mac_v> anyone knows how to remove the 1px border that the input boxes have?  http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1325768/Screenshot-The%20Widget%20Factory.png   nautilus doesnt seem to have it but the other inputboxes have it , it depends on the bg_color... :(
[11:01] <mac_v> kwwii: ^ , i'd like to remove the 1px borders
[11:03] <kwwii> mac_v: you mean the line around the input box?
[11:03] <kwwii> If so, I haven't found a way to get rid of it in murrine
[11:03] <mac_v> damn! :(  ...
[11:04] <mac_v> kwwii: any other engine which removes it?
[11:08] <zniavre> GtkScrolledWindow::scrollbar-spacing		= 0   does the tricks?
[11:11] <mac_v> zniavre: already have that.. this border exists around every input box :(
[11:11] <zniavre> ho sorry
[11:12] <mac_v> zniavre: no probs... :)
[11:19] <andreasn> mac_v: wow, how did you manage to get rid of the gap there?
[11:20] <mac_v> andreasn: hmmm , i havent... i still dont know how to remove the 1px line :(
[11:21] <darkmatter> mac_v: that's a frames issue. you can kill it with a null pixmap and some pixbuf magic
[11:21] <andreasn> mac_v: could it be that they are hardcoded by the toolkit or something?
[11:22] <andreasn> it seems like it's possible to set border-width on widgets in glade
[11:22] <andreasn> on GtkTextView at least
[11:23] <darkmatter> andreasn: pixbuf magic is less painful. and the border is actually a gtk shadow. I've killed them numerous times
[11:23] <thorwil> i wish the only thing that could be defined with glade (or in code placing widgets) would be the layout. no spacing
[11:24] <mac_v> darkmatter: using null pixmap should solve this? ///me tries
[11:24] <andreasn> darkmatter: ah, cool
[11:24] <andreasn> the odd gap always struck me as weird
[11:24] <andreasn> didn't know it was possible to control with the theme
[11:25] <darkmatter> thorwil: general layout (spacing/padding/etc) should be hardcoded and not part of a theme, but rather tied to a well thought out and illustrated graphical design guidleline designed for aesthetically pleasing proportions.
[11:26] <darkmatter> icon sizes, spacing and others should only be extenally affected by scalability in the ui. dpi, accessibility options and the like. throw all that crap out of the gtkrc imho
[11:26] <thorwil> darkmatter: no, spacing shouldn't be hardcoded because the output device should be taken into account
[11:26] <thorwil> bbl
[11:27] <darkmatter> thorwil. read the second part. thats a matter of ui scalability. a well planned ui automatically adjusts for such things
[11:27] <darkmatter> and a scalability patch already exists for gtk
[11:29] <darkmatter> mac_v: yup. null pixmap, any size (even a 1x1 pixel one). just make a transparent png and don't doodle on it :P
[11:38] <kwwii> erm, if anyone is going to use the pixmap engine be aware that there is a serious bug in gtk which makes all pixmap themes crash fspot
[11:39] <darkmatter> kwwii: since? fspot runs fine for me with pixmaps oO
[11:39] <kwwii> darkmatter: I was just made aware of the bug (in karmic)
[11:39] <kwwii> all the themes that I tested made it crash
[11:39] <darkmatter> ahhh... release specific. gotcha
[11:40] <kwwii> it might be something very specific with a widget used in fspot
[11:40] <mac_v> kwwii: i'm using karmic with pixmap scrollbar , no crash here
[11:40] <thorwil> kwwii: i'm on karmic and f-spot runs here with a murrine/pixmap theme
[11:40] <kwwii> mac_v, thorwil: have you really used fspot or just opened it?
[11:41] <thorwil> kwwii: just opened. so what exactly triggers it?
[11:41] <mac_v> kwwii: use it in the sense? bug#?
[11:41] <kwwii> bug #411941
[11:41] <darkmatter> kwwii: it could also be related to a funky gtkrc for a specific theme. I've seen it happen before. takes one wrong config call to crash a specific app/capplet. yet another reason for strictly enforcing gtk usage on the developers end
[11:41]  * thorwil doesn't use f-spot because he hates the idea to have to "import" stuff
[11:41] <kwwii> darkmatter: it happens with several different pixmap themes
[11:42] <kwwii> thorwil: lol, me too ;)
[11:42] <kwwii> I have hundreds of GBs of photos, it wants to import them all to my home dir :p
[11:42]  * mac_v was happy with picasa...[which doesnt seem to work in Karmic :(  ] trying to use fspot
[11:42] <kwwii> click between the different views in fspot
[11:42] <kwwii> that is what makes it crash for me
[11:42] <mac_v> thorwil: kwwii: you could just turn off that import
[11:43] <kwwii> mac_v: yeah, but I still think it sucks as a simple photo editor
[11:43] <kwwii> I don't need an app just to browse my photos
[11:43] <thorwil> mac_v: i have this strange idea that meta-data should stick to files and be app-independent
[11:44] <mac_v> thorwil: fspot does that , sticks the meta to the photos... i hate that about picasa
[11:45] <thorwil> mac_v: if it does, i see no reason for import. i thought it uses a separate database?
[11:45]  * thorwil goes again
[11:46] <mac_v> thorwil: preferences > Store tags & descriptions ,  the import is optional [i think it was done to add the feature to import for other drives]
[11:47] <darkmatter> kwwii: like I said. bad widget call in the theme(s) involved is the most likely cause. though, of course, it could be a issue in karmic *shrug*
[11:47] <kwwii> darkmatter: it seems weird that it only effects f-spot though
[11:49] <mac_v> kwwii: odd workaround: set ubuntu to some other theme, go to preferences in f-spot, set theme to new wave, then set ubuntu back to new wave
[11:49] <mac_v> mentioned in the comments^
[11:49] <darkmatter> kwwii: I'd have to run a check of fspots widgets to be sure. but there's usually a hack that can get past issues like that. of course not running karmic compounds my problem :/
[11:49] <kwwii> mac_v: as soon as I set the theme in f-spot to new wave it crashes as well
[11:49] <mac_v> oh... lol , so not a workaround then ;)
[11:49] <kwwii> darkmatter: yeah, I assigned it to gtk for now...I am sure they will get back to me if it is a theme problem ;)
[11:51] <kwwii> oh well, time for lunch
[11:51] <darkmatter> kwwii: it's old and therefore buggy (because of changes in gtk) and incomplete, but try http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Glory-Simplex?content=60326 and see if it crashes the bugger
[11:51] <zniavre> ProcCmdline: f-spot /usr/lib/f-spot/f-spot.exe   ProcCmdline: f-spot /usr/lib/f-spot/f-spot.exe   .exe that s why it crash
[11:52] <kwwii> darkmatter: yes, that crashes as well (but not as quickly as new wave)
[11:52] <darkmatter> kk
[11:57] <mac_v> style "null-frame"
[11:57] <mac_v> {	
[11:57] <mac_v> 	engine "pixmap"
[11:57] <mac_v> 	{
[11:57] <mac_v> 	image
[11:57] <mac_v> 		{
[11:57] <mac_v> 		function = BOX
[11:57] <mac_v>         	file = "null.png"
[11:57] <mac_v>         	border = {1, 1, 1, 1}
[11:57] <mac_v> 		stretch = TRUE
[11:57] <mac_v> 		}
[11:57] <mac_v> 	}
[11:57] <mac_v> }
[11:57] <mac_v> darkmatter: the pixmap it a box or shadow or.. ?
[11:57] <darkmatter> mac_v: sec. let me crack open an rc
[11:57] <mac_v> i tried box and shadow , it didnt work :(
[11:59] <mac_v> also is it > class "MetaFrames" or class "GtkFrame"  ?
[12:09] <darkmatter> mac_v: here's all my relevant code for entries and shadows (needs a small tad of updating but still works). cut, paste, and replace images/paths at your own discretion
[12:09] <darkmatter> http://pastebin.ca/1656532
[12:10] <darkmatter> http://pastebin.ca/1656533
[12:13] <darkmatter> mac_v: the basic shadow bits should fix it for you since its a dark theme and you can't see your shadows anyway :P
[12:14] <darkmatter> I'll probably update my template gtkrc next week (after I finish up with my epic dr appointments)
[12:23] <darkmatter> here's a nice little hack for the clock button if you want it to fit in better with the other panel applets
[12:23] <darkmatter> widget "*clock-applet-button*" style "theme-panelbutton-clock"
[12:24] <mac_v> oh! i give up... :( nothing seems to work for me :(
[12:25] <mac_v> darkmatter: which clock button?
[12:25] <mac_v> the "edit" button?
[12:25] <mac_v> it seems to inherit the theme
[12:25] <thorwil> mac_v: i think that was one of the design intentions for gtk theming: make people give up
[12:27] <darkmatter> mac_v: main panel. it's normall inherited from the default buttons in the theme, but using that you could restyle it to match the 'menu' look of others like the presence applet and crap
[12:28] <mac_v> thorwil: even stupid is how , the app devs design their app :/  ex: they use the bg_color for the status bar but use the color of the statusbar text from the text_color ack!
[12:29] <darkmatter> mac_v: thats always been the real issue. tons of widgets. no standard rules for usage
[12:29] <mac_v> darkmatter: hehe , i made the clock use the button style but the menus to use a different look :)
[12:35] <darkmatter> mac_v: you can do things like 'theme-panelbutton-clock' = 'theme-menu-item' (naming scheme not withstanding, since thats a matter of the theme itself)and then just define matching symbolic colors or whatever in the theme. it'll basically link back in the widget/class calls and make it behave like a menu entry instead of a button (as far as appearance)
[12:37] <darkmatter> I edited my personal copies of the suse themes because I missed the old intlclock theming :P
[12:38] <mac_v> darkmatter: interesting idea... that way the clock wont light up on hover like a button?
[12:39] <darkmatter> mac_v: did you define the color's for the states?
[12:41] <darkmatter> and did you name the pat after '=' in accordance to your themes naming scheme?
[12:41] <darkmatter> for the widget call I mean
[12:42] <mac_v> darkmatter: i did this > widget "*clock-applet-button*" style "panel"
[12:43] <darkmatter> mac_v: ahh... which styles it after the panel :P
[12:43] <darkmatter> thus no button effect
[12:43] <mac_v> darkmatter: actually it has the button effect :(
[12:43] <darkmatter> you said it didn't. you lied! :P
[12:44] <darkmatter> nm.. misread :P
[12:45] <mac_v> darkmatter: how do i change the cursor color? only for nautilus ?
[12:45] <darkmatter> mac_v: I need sleep.. go figure. but instead I'm making coffee
[12:45] <darkmatter> mac_v: cursor? as in? text entry or other?
[12:46] <mac_v> darkmatter: during the "rename" that cursor
[12:46] <mac_v> widget_class "*Nautilus*IconView*"     style "nautilus-view"
[12:47] <mac_v> right now i'm using this ^ to edit the background
[12:47] <darkmatter> oh... umm... crap. I'll look that up in a sec. never used it but I'm pretty sure it can be done
[12:47] <mac_v> but when the color gets dark the cursor is still the same black while i'm able to make the text white
[12:48] <darkmatter> but first. need caffeine xD
[12:48] <mac_v> lol :)
[12:56] <darkmatter> mac_v: the 'biggest' theming nightmares. inkscape, nautilus, evolution and openoffice.
[12:58] <mac_v> darkmatter: i'v figured out most of evolution , nautilus the cursor is bugging... gave up on OOo and edited the theme to be a bit lighter ;)  oddly inkscape has been noce to me ;)
[12:58] <mac_v> nice*
[12:59] <darkmatter> nautilus has about a dozen unique widgets that can be used to tweak its look
[13:00] <darkmatter> mac_v: I've been working on a test theme to make the nautilus sidebar match the sidebar on the control-center/app browser in all views.  pita
[13:00] <mac_v> darkmatter: done ;)
[13:01] <darkmatter> ever widget you change rapes another widget. the nautilus section is big enough to fill its own gtkrc :P
[13:01] <mac_v> darkmatter: you meant the sidebar [places , tree , emblems stuff] right?
[13:02] <darkmatter> it would be grand if gtk let you actually format text instead of font/face/size/color
[13:02] <darkmatter> mac_v: yup
[13:04] <mac_v> darkmatter: the sidepane and the folderview are using the colors defined in the gtkrc > http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1325768/Screenshot-gtk-2.0%20-%20File%20Browser.png
[13:07] <darkmatter> mac_v: as a general rule yes. but I'm trying to avoid affecting certain lists (like in the appearances dialog etc) got it working somewhat, but still a few issues. the biggest is I want 'buttons' for a consistent metaphor, but by default that changes selections in listviews etc. so I need to go on a widget warpath :P
[13:09] <darkmatter> if all else fails I'll just give up and leave the selected entries as is. but not before I rip out all my hair trying :p
[13:12] <mac_v> darkmatter: you mean that it should be independent of the appearances window , like this ? > http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1325768/Screenshot-1.png
[13:13] <mac_v> the list views are white but only nautilus is dark
[13:13] <darkmatter> mac_v: yeah. got that part. I meant the entries themselves though
[13:14] <mac_v> ah...
[13:14] <darkmatter> if I set a translucent button image that matches the theme, it also affects other lists
[13:18]  * mac_v wonders why the bookmarks in the siadepane are below the filesystems and the drives... away from the desktop and home... places menu seems to have a sane order
[13:20] <darkmatter> mac_v: for the usual reasons. gnome lacks consistent design. compare places, go menus, bookmarks, etc that contain locations across any gnome apps that use them... highly inconsistent
[13:22] <mac_v> darkmatter: i think nautilus tried to use the gtk orders ...
[13:22] <darkmatter> they should all use an identical layout as a general rule
[13:23] <darkmatter> mac_v: yeah. but the point is consistent ui. patterns were conceived for a reason :P
[13:24] <darkmatter> if I wanted a totally random interface I'd use xp ;D
[13:25] <mac_v> yeah... everyone has their own idea... i guess thats what happens when its a collection of folks :)
[13:31] <darkmatter> mac_v: I actual had an idea many moons ago for a skunkworks playground, and have been working on a gui design for about 2 years now. it's almost 'good enough' to turn into an actual proposal/brainstorming starting point
[13:32] <darkmatter> mac_v: basically a place where designers and devs can get together without there egos attached and experiment with new directions/technologies
[13:35] <kwwii> darkmatter: I've thought about trying to restructure the artwork team into more of a design team, allowing for more work like you suggest
[13:35] <mac_v> darkmatter: sounds great... :)  when are you planning on pushing it forward?
[13:36] <darkmatter> kwwii: cool
[13:37] <mac_v> as usual kwwii to the rescue ;)
[13:37] <kwwii> lol, I wish it was that easy ;)
[13:38] <darkmatter> mac_v: once I finish ironing out activity/object/group management. the design is meant to be mor freeform and intuitive with managing windows, multiple documents, etc. the rest of the ideas are on paper, just the last hurdle then I can write it up/get feedback, publish and propose etc. so still a lot of work :P
[13:39] <thorwil> the really hard part is getting stuff to be implemented
[13:40] <darkmatter> mac_v: the idea ties into the primary interface as well (dock/panel/shelf/choose a name :P). atm we deal with windows and instances of applications
[13:40] <kwwii> thorwil: right
[13:40]  * mac_v thinks thorwil is having the scrollbar idea in mind :)
[13:41] <darkmatter> the idea is to be able to group by relation, and regroup according to individual workflow
[13:41] <kwwii> even if you spec things out perfectly and have good examples and even perhaps a functioning mockup it is still hard to get developer buy-in
[13:41] <thorwil> kwwii: i'm afraid we have even fewer people worthy of being called designers than those you could call artists
[13:42] <thorwil> some might even fail to see a difference ;)
[13:42] <kwwii> thorwil: agreed, but now that we have a design team, we could get them to help build the community team, as well as tying the usability people into the design process
[13:42] <kwwii> lol, no doubt
[13:42] <mac_v> kwwii: i think its more , ego , which prevents the main devs from adopting the new ideas
[13:42] <kwwii> mac_v: I think mainly it is the amount of work and experience of the average dev
[13:43] <darkmatter> so, as an example of a possible default for an activity. you're a dev, working on a project. you have an ide, a terminal, glade, blah blah open, because they are part of the same activity, they are grouped together
[13:43] <kwwii> developing the low-level toolkits and such is not an easy job
[13:43] <kwwii> the whole problem with gtk is that they currently have nobody to lead the development...just people to maintain the current stuff
[13:48] <darkmatter> so, in that one small regard, instead of tabbing/scrolling though a list of open windows, you can switch between activities and just select the desired document/app from the one you need. it goes a lot further. but thats a basic example
[13:49] <darkmatter> and indeed. at any level, window management, actual applications. document level stuff, notifications, integration, etc it requires a ton of work to accomplish a 'good' ui
[13:50] <darkmatter> because conceptual simplicity requires an underlying structural complexity
[13:51] <darkmatter> the simpler/easier/more humanly understandable you want something to work. the more technical abstraction you need under the hood
[13:51] <darkmatter> not 'hiding options' or 'dumbing down', but making more intelligent api/services/frameworks/etc
[13:52] <darkmatter> ok.. I'm done babbling... I think :P
[13:53] <kwwii> ;)
[13:53] <mac_v> :)
[13:54] <kwwii> I bet you're not :p
[13:55] <darkmatter> kwwii: don't get me started again. I've another 48 hours worth of general descriptiveness in me :P
[13:55]  * mac_v wonders when this might become a reality :)
[13:55] <kwwii> lol
[13:56] <mac_v> darkmatter: any documentation on the web? are you keeping it all hidden in your head ;p
[13:58] <darkmatter> mac_v: without going of on another babble fest. I'll just say: I don't believ in applications. I believe in activities and data. I dont believe in email, irc, IM, etc, I believe in 'communication', I also don't believe in home as a system directory, but as a place where I can find all my favorite stuff ;o
[13:58] <darkmatter> mac_v: notebooks, paper illustrations atm :P
[13:58] <mac_v> oh boy!... then definately not earlier than 10 yrs ;p
[13:59] <darkmatter> mac_v: lol.. much sooner than that. I just need a few boring mockups and a night or two of typing :P
[14:00] <darkmatter> mac_v: just time constraints. that and I still need to start a blog on teh blogger
[16:53] <thorwil> if one feels depressed about the state of ubuntu-artwork, one should have a look at the current thread on ubuntu-marketing ^^
[16:54] <mac_v> hmm ,anyone on a wired connection?
[16:54]  * thorwil is careful
[16:54] <thorwil> mac_v: maybe? ;)
[16:55] <mac_v> thorwil: could you check , if Bug 386900 is really fixed? Andrew just marked it fixed , without properly checking :/
[16:55] <mac_v> i'm not able to check since i use a wireless connection
[16:56] <thorwil> mac_v: i read "Auto eth2" there
[16:57] <mac_v> argh! :/
[16:57] <mac_v> thorwil: thanks :)
[16:58] <mac_v> thorwil: just to confirm , thats in the notify-osd notifications, right?
[16:58] <thorwil> mac_v: no. how do i trigger that?
[16:59] <mac_v> thorwil: hmm , try disconnecting and reconnecting
[17:00] <thorwil> Auto eth2. Connection established
[17:00] <mac_v> :(
[17:00] <mac_v> thorwil: thanks... :)
[17:00]  * thorwil wonders how the irc client doesn't mind disconnect/reconnect
[21:53] <mac_v> psyke83: hi... know how to remove the 1px border that the input boxes have?  http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/1325768/Screenshot-The%20Widget%20Factory.png   nautilus doesnt seem to have it but the other inputboxes have it , it depends on the bg_color... :(
[21:55] <psyke83> mac_v: is that scrollbar from an engine or pixmap?
[21:55] <mac_v> psyke83: pixmap
[21:56] <mac_v> its just a rough one... need to make it look better ;)
[21:56] <psyke83> I think that the pixel you see is the outline of the GtkBox container for the listview
[21:56] <psyke83> so, you can't get rid of it
[21:56] <mac_v> :( ...
[21:57] <mac_v> psyke83: it depends on bg[normal]... it seems to make it darker bg[normal] , what is the correct class?
[22:00] <psyke83> I'm guessing that the parent class is GtkBox (which I don't think is defined in themes), so it would get overridden by other classes
[22:01] <psyke83> I'm not completely certain though, so you might want to double-check with a gtk expert (I'm sure they have channels on this server?)
[22:01] <mac_v> oh .. ok
[22:02] <mac_v> next , i'll have to ask in gnome-art... ;)
[22:02] <psyke83> mac_v: do you see the pixel border on all other widgets, or is it just the listviews (which is what happens to be beside it in twf)?
[22:03] <mac_v> psyke83: in all inputboxes , the 1px barder is present
[22:03] <mac_v> border*
[22:03] <psyke83> so it would also affect gtkentry...
[22:04] <psyke83> perhaps it's not related to gtkbox, but certain classes such as gtkentry and gtklistview
[22:04] <mac_v> it doesnt seem to
[22:04] <mac_v> entry doesnt have the border
[22:04] <mac_v> or maybe it does ;)
[22:05] <mac_v> it really doesnt matter for a dark theme  though