[00:32] <Riddell> JontheEchidna: what did you change?
[00:32] <Riddell> I wish irssi had a wdiff for topic changes
[00:32] <Riddell> Sput: ^^ top quassel idea
[00:32] <JontheEchidna> Riddell: apachelogger said that "Kubuntu: the distro with good looking developers" was too long
[00:33] <Riddell> being hot is better than being good looking
[00:39] <Riddell> Lex79: what progress on qt tonight?  I see you made some phonon changes to bzr
[00:43] <ScottK> Considering apachelogger's weather reports earlier today for .at, I'm guess hot doesn't fully apply.
[00:47] <Riddell> I'm seriously considering turning on the central heating here
[00:47] <Riddell> but I recon more cups of hot chocolate will substitute
[00:48]  * ScottK has only two dogs, so central heat is needed.
[00:48] <Riddell> it's bonfire night today, just find a catholic to burn
[00:48] <MsMaco> hahaha "we are hot"?
[00:49] <Riddell> we will be if we find enough catholics to burn
[00:49] <MsMaco> i shouldn't be laughing. i'm a recovering catholic.
[00:50] <Riddell> pst, ScottK, need some fuel for your central heating?
[00:50] <ScottK> No, last I looked the tank is pretty full.
[00:50] <MsMaco> hey you two, is it my computer or does the "6:50pm" part of the digital clock panel plasmoids sit a few pixels below the date/city text?
[00:51] <Riddell> here in the civilised world we use 24 hours clocks
[00:51] <Riddell> jings, I am being snobby tonight
[00:51] <MsMaco> fine! the 17:50 part!
[00:51] <ScottK> Looks fine here, but I don't have TZ displayed
[00:51] <dtchen> huh?
[00:51] <MsMaco> (have you noticed i'm heading westward?)
[00:52] <dtchen> 6:50 != 5:50
[00:52] <Riddell> yes it's a few pixels below but it's also a larger point size so it's also a few pixels above
[00:53] <MsMaco> dtchen: i said i was heading westward!
[00:54] <Riddell> westward is full of hillbillies, some east for some real culture
[00:54] <MsMaco> http://imagebin.ca/view/Cgee0kH1.html
[00:54] <MsMaco> im pretty sure the 12:52am and the London are the same font size
[00:54] <Riddell> MsMaco: it's a larger font, so it will be aligned differently
[00:55] <ScottK> Riddell's comment got me noticing I've somehow ended up with AM/PM again and I can't find the option to get back to 24 hour.
[00:55] <MsMaco> though the 7:52pm is bigger than the date or the London clock in general
[00:55] <MsMaco> ScottK: regional, i think
[00:55] <ScottK> Thanks
[00:55] <Riddell> hmm, you could be right on the city
[00:55] <MsMaco> the setting (totally unintuitively, IMO) is not in the plasmoid itself
[00:55] <dtchen> MsMaco: due to lag, I typed it before your westward bit had appeared
[00:55] <Riddell> if only we had the author of that applet in the channel.   sebas I think he was called
[00:55] <MsMaco> im pretty sure the v in Nov is getting cut off a big too, but meh
[00:56] <MsMaco> did he write all of plasma or what?
[00:56] <MsMaco> sebas: POKE
[00:56] <Riddell> dtchen: you have lag over a 10 metre network connection?
[00:56] <MsMaco> Riddell: he's not at home ;)
[00:56] <dtchen> Riddell: err, no, this is a 56kbps dialup
[00:56] <MsMaco> yikes
[00:57] <Riddell> no what!  what country are you in?  Burkina Faso?
[00:57] <dtchen> I appear to be in Cardiff Bay
[00:57] <Riddell> oh, Wales.  say no more
[00:57] <dtchen> :-)
[00:57] <MsMaco> visiting Gwen
[00:57] <MsMaco> ?
[00:58] <dtchen> Jack, silly
[00:58] <MsMaco> ...there's not a new DVD i should know about, is there?
[00:58] <MsMaco> jack left earth!
[00:58] <dtchen> of course he didn't
[00:58] <dtchen> and shh, don't spoil
[00:58] <MsMaco> sure he did, with his little wrist watch thingy
[00:58] <dtchen> not everyone has seen CoE, though arguably anyone who would care has by now
[00:59] <MsMaco> the channel's full of Whovians. if they dont know yet, they're rather behind, don't you think?
[00:59] <MsMaco> this is like the idea that you can have spoilers for the next harry potter movie...when it was out in book form 6 years ago
[00:59] <Riddell> I must admit I missed the last Torchwood week long special
[00:59] <dtchen> cough.
[01:00] <dtchen> MsMaco: you lose.
[01:00] <MsMaco> wait wait
[01:00] <MsMaco> Riddell: do you care?
[01:01] <Riddell> well the cats knocked over the telly and I got my account to bbc redux shut off, so I have to wait for it to be repeated on bbc 3 and download it from iplayer.  so I don't care enough to have managed that in the last six months
[01:01] <MsMaco> ah
[01:01] <Riddell> it's not worth the money for the licence fee anyway
[01:01] <MsMaco> im trying to figure out if i can make it to uds. if i do figure out how to get to uds, should i borrow dtchen's copy of the dvd?
[01:02] <Riddell> oh totally, we can watch it at UDS then!
[01:02] <MsMaco> dtchen: cool with you?
[01:02] <dtchen> do I have a say?
[01:03] <MsMaco> of course, its your dvd
[01:03] <Riddell> we'll watch Torchwood in the hot tub
[01:03] <dtchen> I mean, it's not like you didn't have my Firefly DVDs for months without my being aware
[01:03] <MsMaco> you were aware!
[01:03] <dtchen> not really.
[01:03] <MsMaco> you forgot them at my apartment!
[01:03] <dtchen> "uh, where is disc 3?" "oh, here in my DVD-ROM" does not count
[01:03] <MsMaco> though roommate did sort of wander off with them for a bit...
[01:04] <MsMaco> hahaha
[01:04] <MsMaco> Riddell: what hot tub?
[01:04] <Riddell> there's always a hot tub
[01:04] <MsMaco> and why do you think i would get in it?
[01:04] <Riddell> to watch torchwood!
[01:05] <MsMaco> i dont even remember the last time i wore a bathing suit
[01:05] <MsMaco> dtchen: this is why we didnt work! youre a swimmer
[01:06] <Riddell> http://www.marriott.com/hotels/hotel-information/fitness-spa-services/dalbr-renaissance-dallas-hotel/  "Georgette Klinger (4.8 miles)"  hmm, the Dallas definition of "near" is clearly different from that to which I have been used
[01:07] <MsMaco> what is your definition of "near"?
[01:07] <MsMaco> though i agree that 5mi isnt quite near
[01:07] <MsMaco> id say more like 2mi
[01:07] <Riddell> walkable
[01:07] <ScottK> 4.8 miles is what, a 3 minute drive?
[01:07] <Riddell> but I get the impression walking isn't something most people in Dallas do
[01:08] <MsMaco> Riddell: um, go a little broader with that statement, please
[01:08] <MsMaco> " but I get the impression walking isn't something most people in North America do"
[01:08] <rickspencer3> ever see wali?
[01:08] <Riddell> cycleable on a brompton?
[01:08] <dtchen> wali or wall-e ?
[01:08] <MsMaco> Riddell:  people dont cycle here either...
[01:08] <rickspencer3> right wall-e
[01:08] <ScottK> They don't apparently get shoes repaired in North America either.
[01:08] <MsMaco> Riddell: not as transportation at least... exercise, racing.....
[01:09]  * ScottK cycled for transport in college
[01:09] <MsMaco> ScottK: where can i get my shoes resoled? ive worn a whole in my black pair and i really like them!
[01:09] <dtchen> rickspencer3: yes, then
[01:09] <Riddell> ScottK: to be fair they did have a shoe repair shop, it just wasn't 24 hours
[01:09]  * ScottK even got run over by a mini van.
[01:09] <MsMaco> dtchen: katie (you know katie...linuxchix, hacdc, speaks japanese) has a sound bug on identica @bokunenjin
[01:09] <MsMaco> dtchen: and yes she's running the right kernel
[01:10] <ScottK> MsMaco: Let me know.  I've got two pair like that.  I hate it when it rains.
[01:10] <dtchen> dude, I am not free tech support
[01:10] <dtchen> it really may seem like I am, but I ain't
[01:10] <MsMaco> dtchen: you seem to help people on identi.ca...just pointing
[01:11] <ScottK> MsMaco: Just tell her to remove Pulse and I'm sure all will be well.
[01:11] <Riddell> dtchen: my speakers aren't plugged in, can you do it for me?
[01:12] <MsMaco> someone just reminded her to check volume settings. will see how that goes
[01:12] <MsMaco> there's got to be some kde / blue equivalent to what Riddell just said
[01:13] <MsMaco> like the blue isnt blue enough
[01:18] <Riddell> MsMaco: they'll ask seele to remove some configuration options, I hear that's what usability people do
[01:18] <seele> hmm?
[01:19] <seele> where s the option to switch to ayatana notifications?
[01:19] <ScottK> seele: system tray settings.
[01:19] <ScottK> Right click on the tray, get to the settings, and it'll be obvious
[01:19] <Riddell> it's so well hidden, nobody can find it
[01:20] <seele> ah hah.. i was looking in system settings
[01:20] <seele> i fergot :P
[01:20] <ScottK> Riddell: Not my fault.  I didn't insist on that.
[01:20] <MsMaco> i stumbled upon it just fine once
[01:21] <MsMaco> but thats usually how i use kde: stumble upon some setting, change it, hope i like it since i wont find it again ;)
[01:23] <Riddell> time to snooze, sweet dreams all
[01:23] <MsMaco> bye bye
[01:44] <ScottK> MsMaco: I'm being told by one of the kids that Cookie Monster has been converted to Veggie Monster.  Do you know if this is true?
[01:56] <JontheEchidna> ScottK: yes :(
[01:57] <ScottK> The horror.
[01:58] <JontheEchidna> Quite.
[02:05] <Lex79> Riddell: I push to bzr what I have. I have the flu, I threw up right now :( someone can continue my work tomorrow or you can upload for now without Messages.sh rules. Sorry :(
[02:05] <Lex79> Go to bed...night
[02:07] <ScottK> Lex79: Good night.  Hope you feel better.
[02:08] <Lex79> many thanks ScottK
[02:10] <JontheEchidna> Lex79: hope you feel better soon... throwing up is not fun
[02:18] <jjesse> what cookie monster no longer eats cookies?
[02:19] <ScottK> No.  Apparently not.
[02:19] <jjesse> phew
[02:38] <jjesse> who was talkign to me earlier about revising kubuntudocs and adding/changing translations within kubuntu-docs?
[02:39] <ScottK> jjesse: Wasn't it dpm-afk.
[02:40] <jjesse> yeahts right thanks scott
[02:43] <jjesse> ok registered a blueprint to start working on kubutnu-dcos for lucid: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/kubuntu-docs/+spec/kubuntu-docs-lucid  how do i target it for lucid?
[02:44] <jjesse> oh wait its targeted for a sprint
[02:45] <ScottK> That's how
[03:01] <jwisser> ::facepalm:: Unplanned nap fail.
[03:15] <MsMaco> ScottK: that's awesome!
[03:15] <MsMaco> cookies and veggies: my two favourite foods!
[03:16] <ScottK> Awesome.  No.  It's just wrong.
[03:17] <jwisser> Is there a decent KDE equivalent to Gnome Do? Or is there at least a way to get rid of the weird shading that accompanies Do?
[03:24] <MsMaco> krunner?
[03:24] <MsMaco> the built-in alt+f2 thingy
[03:29] <jwisser> MsMaco: …not quite a replacement. It can't do a lot of what I'm used to from a launcher.
[03:33] <MsMaco> oh. all i know is it does more than gnome's alt+f2 thingy
[03:35] <MsMaco> so i figured it probably did some subset of the special gnomedo stuff
[03:38] <ScottK> jwisser: What specifically is it you're looking for.  Most/all of us have never used Gnome Do.
[03:38] <ScottK> Riddell, apachelogger, and JontheEchidna: Kubuntu updates policy launched at the TB, cc to kubuntu-devel.
[03:39] <jwisser> Any ex-Mac users here? I'm a Quicksilver user, so I'm looking to be able to do everything from open a document or application to post to Twitter to see my clipboard history to control my music player.
[03:40] <ScottK> I think we have most of that, but not all in one.
[03:44] <da-bayman> seems some of my widgets dont load when i reboot, in particular, the facebook widget. Any suggestions
[03:46] <MsMaco> document and application are covered in krunner arent they?
[03:46] <MsMaco> (ive used quicksilver, but never more than just those 2 functions)
[03:47] <jwisser> ::grimaces:: Yeah. But that's… not all I use Quicksilver/Do for at all.
[03:47] <MsMaco> heh i never knew how much those could do
[03:47] <MsMaco> never seemed useful :P
[03:47] <ScottK> Clip board is covered by Klipper in the systray
[03:48] <ScottK> It's feature rich.
[03:50] <jwisser> ::nods:: For me, the benefit of Quicksilver/Do is that it's all in one place and I can do without thinking.
[03:55] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: hmmz, is it just me or did we never get to drafting a proposed release support policy the other day?
[03:58] <JontheEchidna> My thoughts are that we should keep the releses supported security-wise as they currently are (18 months regular, 2 years LTS), but make it abundantly clear to the users that they are not likely at all to recieve SRUs after a year, unless they fix really serious issues
[03:58] <JontheEchidna> Since as long as ubuntu-security is doing security, we don't waste any resources.
[03:58] <JontheEchidna> We just need an SRU policy mainly, I think
[04:23] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: LTS is 3 years
[04:23] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: Did you see me microversion update proposal?
[04:35] <JontheEchidna> ScottK: yeah. these two would be related, to a degree
[04:36] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: I think updates for: microversions, regressions, and real RC type bugs.  That's it.
[04:36] <JontheEchidna> usually we stop with microupgrades after distro+1's development starts. Should we make this clear to the users beforehand that once distro+1 is released, current releases will not get microversions?
[04:36] <ScottK> Actually we haven't.
[04:37] <ScottK> We've done all the ones that upstream provided.
[04:37] <JontheEchidna> for example we haven't done 4.3.3 packages for jaunty now that karmic is released and work on lucid has begun
[04:37] <ScottK> We have 4.3.3 in PPA
[04:37] <JontheEchidna> but for jaunty?
[04:37] <ScottK> Right.
[04:37] <ScottK> 4.3 in Jaunty is just PPA.
[04:38] <ScottK> I think PPA update policy is a different issue
[04:38] <JontheEchidna> We don't have 4.3.3 packages for jaunty in the ppa, which is what I am saying
[04:38] <ScottK> If suddenly KDE decided they needed to do a 4.1.5, I think we'd want it.
[04:38] <ScottK> Low chance of them doing that, but if they did, it'd probably be for a really good reason.
[04:39] <JontheEchidna> ah, OK. I see what you're saying
[04:39] <JontheEchidna> 3 closely related issues: SRU support, microrelease support, PPA support
[04:39] <ScottK> We also need a bug reporting policy for PPA
[04:39] <ScottK> Which probably needs triagers
[04:41] <JontheEchidna> PPA packaging bugs haven't been as big of an issue now that debian's packaging has somewhat stabilized.
[04:41] <JontheEchidna> and now most PPA package bugs also need to be fixed in the development release
[04:41] <ScottK> Right, but if we're using them as an entry point to proposed, there has to be a way for users to signal problems
[04:42] <JontheEchidna> ah, ok. I was thinking more of pre-release KDE packages backported from ubuntu+1
[04:43] <JontheEchidna> Regressions are regressions, though. Right? They'd affect the development version of kubuntu as long as the microrelease is in kubuntu
[04:43] <JontheEchidna> all we would need is a way to mark the bugs as potential microrelease regressions
[04:44] <ScottK> I did register https://launchpad.net/kubuntu-ppa as a spot to report PPA bugs.
[04:44] <JontheEchidna> oh, you can do that now?
[04:45] <JontheEchidna> oh, a launchpad-project bug tracker. for a second there I thought they got smart and have ppa bug trackers
[04:48] <ScottK> No, we just need to tell people to use it.
[04:50] <ScottK> Assuming that's what we want to do.
[05:10] <ScottK> [00:03:58] <cjwatson> slangasek: are any corresponding changes needed to kdm?
[05:10] <ScottK> [00:05:21] <slangasek> cjwatson: bulletproof-x only ever hooked into gdm... we could do kdm as well, but that would involve quite a bit of fiddling and is probably not a good idea for SRU
[05:19] <ScottK> Riddell: ^^^ Is that correct?  I thought KDM had bulletproof X
[06:49] <markey> http://laserjock.wordpress.com/2009/11/04/the-myth-of-the-bad-ubuntu-release/
[06:50] <markey> ^ wise words
[06:51] <markey> apachelogger: btw, another suggestion for Timelord: Please don't just push security updates online. Why not e.g. also push KDE updates (4.3.3) without going through the whole PPA mumbo jumbo?
[06:51] <markey> PPA might be a cool concept for packagers. for users PPA spells "PITA"
[08:53] <Sput> markey: not if you have a nice tool to manage such stuff
[08:53] <jwisser> Sput: What tool did you have in mind?
[08:53] <Sput> markey: Gentoo is using the overlay concept more and more (comparable to PPAs), but users just have to say "layman -a kde-testing" if they want to add the kde-testing overlay, for example
[08:54] <Sput> so there is no need to hunt down URLs or click around in tools and enter lines by hand
[08:54] <markey> good for you
[08:54] <markey> my tool is: editing some config file
[08:54] <Sput> I have no idea how it works in *buntu as I don't use it, but I think if you make it easy enough for users, it's a nice idea
[08:54] <Sput> so make using PPAs easy rather than getting rid of the concept :)
[08:55] <markey> I don't see why new versions of KDE or Quassel or whatever can't be pushed as online update
[08:55] <markey> the user could decide to disable those
[08:55] <Sput> well, new versions maybe, but for experimental stuff it's nice if the user has an easy way to opt in
[08:55] <markey> I would want the latest $EVERYTHING
[08:55] <Sput> imho of course :)
[08:55] <markey> e.g. Git
[08:55] <markey> etc
[08:55] <Sput> yeah, but not many want that, so it'd be bad if it was opt-out
[08:56] <jwisser> markey: That's fine if you're a power user willing to sacrifice stability.
[08:56] <markey> opt-in is fine with me
[08:56] <markey> jwisser: apparently Arch linux can do it, without sacrificing stability
[08:56] <Sput> that's why I like the PPA/Overlay concept, you can easily opt in (at least on Gentoo)... I'm running the kde-testing, qting-edge and x11 overlays to get all that stuff from git :)
[08:56] <Sput> they have AUR or whatever it was
[08:56] <jwisser> But if one of the groups Kubuntu wants to start going after is small businesses, that kind of opt-out feature is a recipe for instability (or at least distrust).
[08:56] <Sput> in the end it all comes down to provide tools that make adding/removing/managing such extra repos easy
[08:57] <markey> also let's for example look at KDE: 4.3.3 is a minor update, providing bugfixes
[08:57] <jwisser> Sput: That does sound nice. I'd go for something like that no questions asked.
[08:57] <markey> how does that affect stability in a negative way?
[08:57] <markey> it enhances stability
[08:57] <Sput> markey: that's an entirely different case, I'd complain if point releases wouldn't go into the stable tree automatically :)
[08:57] <markey> Sput: yep, but that is reality with ubuntu
[08:58] <markey> they only push security updates
[08:58] <apachelogger> markey: see mail at kde-devel list :P
[08:58] <Sput> PPA-like things are/should be for experimental things only, things that you don't want the user to install unconsciously
[08:58] <apachelogger> actually I think scott pushed a mail yesterday
[08:58]  * apachelogger fires up kmail
[08:58] <markey> apachelogger: I only read core-devel, got a link?
[08:58] <Sput> markey: well, that's bad then.
[08:58] <Sput> though there is this backport thingy you have, or?
[08:58] <markey> sure, just enable another PPA...
[08:58] <markey> and then another one
[08:59] <apachelogger> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kubuntu-devel/2009-November/003484.html
[08:59] <markey> thx
[08:59] <apachelogger> more interesting than what I wrote on kde-devel anyway
[09:00] <jwisser> markey: It enhances stability if you're only enabling pushthrough for bugfix point releases, at least in theory. But some businesses, small and large would rather learn a fixed set of minor bugs than have to relearn anything.
[09:00] <apachelogger> markey: anyhow, the core point is that any KDE bugfix update goes to the -updates repository, even though by definition most KDE updates would not qualify
[09:00] <jwisser> I'm not saying I agree with them, I'm just stating a reality.
[09:00] <markey> jwisser: I think we must be more progressive if we don't want to lose a huge deal of users to Arch
[09:00] <markey> being too conservative here with many things
[09:00] <amik> it would be nice if kubuntu would have the simplicity of updates as in MS-update: u always have a full list of updates to everything available with no configuration necessary, and can checkbox what u want, and uncheck what u don't. security/important stuff is checked by default. I find it very easy to use. Everyone gets what they want, no configurations and URLs necessary.
[09:01] <jwisser> markey: Well, that's something we need to be clear about as a community: who are we aiming for, and how hard do we want to work for each group?
[09:01] <apachelogger> jwisser: from epxerience there is a lot more advantage from KDE updates than what they could technically break
[09:01] <apachelogger> also, it's a lot about how hard can we work for each group
[09:01] <Mamarok> well, KDE bugfix releases should go to the regular backports, not only PPA backports IMHO, we always have to wait too long for that, in Jaunty almost nothing ended up in the backports
[09:01] <apachelogger> a matter of available time resource
[09:02] <markey> jwisser: same with Amarok, if Kubuntu has e.g. 2.2.0, then we release 2.2.1, you can be sure that 2.2.1 is lots better
[09:02] <markey> why not give it to the users?
[09:02] <Mamarok> we had 4.2.4 pushed to the backports, but never any 4.3.x
[09:02] <apachelogger> amik: how is kubuntu different from that?
[09:02] <jwisser> apachelogger: I bow to your superior knowledge regarding all things KDE. I'm a KDE baby. :-)
[09:02] <markey> we're not happy with users on outdated software
[09:02] <apachelogger> uhhh, cute, a baby!
[09:02]  * apachelogger switches to baby talk :D
[09:03] <jwisser> apachelogger: Cute. :-P
[09:03] <amik> apachelogger: because u need to hunt down PPAs, track which repositories have which backports or updates, etc. why not have it all in one place and let everyone choose what they want?
[09:03] <Mamarok> and it causes a lot of additional work, e.g. having to close bugs reported for 2.0.2 till recently
[09:03] <apachelogger> nah nah
[09:03] <apachelogger> backports
[09:03] <apachelogger> we are always talking backports here
[09:04] <apachelogger> amik: did you ever see windows poll you for an upgrade of explorer.exe?
[09:04] <apachelogger> so you have like vista and an explorer from seven
[09:04] <amik> apachelogger: for example, kde 4.3.3. Where will it be? what do I need to do to find it?
[09:04] <apachelogger> because that essentially is what PPAs do to your system
[09:04] <Mamarok> apachelogger: well, comparision to Windows is lame, they use stuff that is almost 10 years old
[09:04] <markey> also if the new ShowCock stable version gets released, I'd love to have it
[09:04] <apachelogger> Mamarok: it's about reliability, doesnt matter how old the software is
[09:04] <markey> don't want to hunt down some obscure PPA's for it
[09:05] <amik> apachelogger: no, not individual files, but I can check/uncheck any version of .net framework, internet explorer, office updates, service packs, live addons - pick and choose what I want easily.
[09:05] <apachelogger> amik: that is what you get from *-updates
[09:05] <Mamarok> apachelogger: for reliability we have LTS releases, whihc makes sense for server ettc., but in the Linux world development is faster and even if am old IE is around and people think it is reliable it still is a huge pile of crap
[09:06] <apachelogger> quality assured updates that is unlikely to break your system
[09:06] <markey> LTS is a good point
[09:06] <markey> one could keep the conservative policy for LTS
[09:06] <apachelogger> Mamarok: then canonical should not offer support for > 1 year TBH
[09:07] <jwisser> 10.04 in particular needs to be incredibly stable IMO.
[09:07] <markey> 90% of users probably don't want to use outdated software
[09:07] <apachelogger> markey: looking at the breakage we had over the last couple of releases I would say we were pretty non-conservative
[09:07] <Mamarok> apachelogger: and we are so completely out of sync with the KDE releases, I think they should end up in the regular backports after testing in PPA
[09:07] <amik> apachelogger: I have Important/Recommended/Unsupported updates enabled in Jaunty. Where do I find the latest firefox 3.5 for example?
[09:07] <jwisser> The whole point of Timelord, as I understand it, is to fix the breakages, both in software and perception.
[09:07] <apachelogger> Mamarok: see backlog
[09:07] <apachelogger> amik: security
[09:08] <apachelogger> possibly updates
[09:08] <apachelogger> depends on the changes per version really
[09:08] <apachelogger> the thing is
[09:08] <apachelogger> sec and updates are on by default
[09:08] <apachelogger> so you would not find them at all
[09:08] <apachelogger> they would find you
[09:08] <markey> I could tell some stories that would make you furious. certain software projects have at one point added "small security bugs", just to force an upgrade
[09:08] <markey> because that works reliably
[09:09] <markey> (not that I know any such projects personally)
[09:09] <amik> apachelogger: I'm all up to date, and only have FF 3.0 installed, am I missing something?
[09:10] <apachelogger> amik: firefox 3.0 will not install 3.5 until 3.0 reached EOL
[09:10] <apachelogger> ubuntus policiy here only matches ustreams
[09:10] <apachelogger> 3.0 will only auto-apply incremental updates 3.0.x until it reaches EOL
[09:11] <apachelogger> and btw, when 3.0 reaches EOL the ubuntu versions that do ship it, also reach EOL
[09:11] <amik> apachelogger: but that's my point - if all versions were in the repos, I can choose to upgrade or not, rather than having to do a dist-upgrade to get updates apps, or try to hunt it down manually
[09:11] <apachelogger> just for good measure :P
[09:11] <apachelogger> markey: thus the cherry pick policy for -updates and -security
[09:12] <markey> yep
[09:12] <apachelogger> the less changes the less likely is breakage
[09:12] <markey> well
[09:12] <apachelogger> which IMHO is a very wrong assumption
[09:12] <apachelogger> but oh well
[09:12]  * apachelogger is not on the technical board :P
[09:12] <amik> apachelogger: same with kde 4.3.3, i guess. but maybe I don't understand the system well enough yet :-)
[09:12] <markey> except that some projects have good internal testing mechanisms that make regressions unlikely
[09:12] <markey> testing gets more and more wide spread
[09:13] <jwisser> markey: Re: what you were saying about Arch, I see your point, but it seems to me that Arch is trying to be something different from *buntu.
[09:13] <markey> chromium dailies are more stable than any Konqueror release in history ;)
[09:13] <jwisser> So it's good they're out there doing that, but it doesn't mean *buntu needs to do theings the same way.
[09:13] <amik> amik: anyway, don't want to hijack ur conversation... just something that was bugging me. I'll shut up now :-)
[09:13] <jwisser> *things
[09:14] <Mamarok> amik: talking to yourself?
[09:14] <Mamarok> :)
[09:14] <amik> Mamarok: on occasion, though not today :-)
[09:14] <apachelogger> hum
[09:14] <apachelogger> jwisser: ScottK did not blog about timelord!!!!!!!
[09:15] <apachelogger> I demand spanking for him :D
[09:15] <jwisser> apachelogger: I feel like I probably shouldn't try to hand out spankings until I've at least got around to creating my wiki page identifying me as King of Marketing. :-P
[09:15] <jwisser> But I'll click my tongue very loudly next time I see him.
[09:16] <apachelogger> hooray
[09:16] <apachelogger> hooray for wiki pages
[09:16] <jwisser> But in all seriousness, what's my best method of finding out who does what around here?
[09:16] <Tm_T> apachelogger: public spanking?
[09:16] <apachelogger> that reminds me ... I think my wiki page is a stub ... and that reminds me that I do not have a wikipedia wiki page
[09:16] <Mamarok> jwisser: self appointed?
[09:16] <jwisser> Mamarok: Oh no, blame this one on apachelogger and ScottK.
[09:17] <apachelogger> Tm_T: yus
[09:17] <Mamarok> I be support fairy, then :)
[09:17] <apachelogger> lol
[09:17] <apachelogger> I like that name
[09:17] <apachelogger> srsly
[09:17] <markey> haha
[09:17] <apachelogger> super Qt
[09:17] <jwisser> Support fairies would be ossum.
[09:17] <apachelogger> we might turn that in a launchpad team :)
[09:17] <jwisser> Bleeding hell, it's 4am.
[09:17]  * apachelogger likes launchpad teams
[09:17] <apachelogger> they are something to show off
[09:18] <markey> can I be Rambo? like, when we have to piss off someone, I could do that
[09:18] <jwisser> Need to be up in 4, so I'm off. G'night, all.
[09:18] <markey> lots of swearing and stuff
[09:18] <apachelogger> like "oi, I am a freaking support fairy, watch your language!"
[09:18] <Mamarok> apachelogger: well, there is still a lot of people not in your fanpage :)
[09:18] <apachelogger> well, maybe a more positive example, but you get the idea
[09:18] <apachelogger> Mamarok: that too
[09:18] <markey> "You stupid git, you!"
[09:18] <apachelogger> 503 Service Unavailable
[09:18] <apachelogger> :D
[09:18] <apachelogger> launchpad rulez
[09:18] <Mamarok> markey: that's redundant, you say that daily when you push
[09:18]  * Mamarok hides
[09:18] <markey> this is true
[09:19] <apachelogger> always them down times
[09:19] <apachelogger> markey: dont push to hard it might burst
[09:19] <apachelogger> woah
[09:19] <markey> next on Timelord list: put apachelogger in space
[09:19]  * apachelogger better gets on his way for accounting lecture
[09:19] <markey> shuttleworth has done it...
[09:19] <apachelogger> true
[09:20] <apachelogger> I always wanted to make vacation pictures of space
[09:20] <apachelogger> also quite unique, so I can call myself superior to them flickr people
[09:20] <Mamarok> "apachelogger visiting the Jupiter moons"
[09:21] <apachelogger> which reminds me on the master method
[09:21]  * apachelogger leaves you to read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_theorem and leaves for accounting
[09:21] <Mamarok> apachelogger: hf
[09:22] <amik> so, where do u guys most need programming help?
[09:25] <amik> or should I go straight to KDE?
[09:26] <Mamarok> amik: what proramming so you know?
[09:26] <Mamarok> +g
[09:27] <amik> well, I've been doing mostly Java (servers) the past few years, but have experience with assembly, c/c++, and a dip of python. some web stuff I guess... dunno, whatever I find interesting at the moment :-)
[09:28] <Mamarok> KDE is C++ mostly
[09:28] <Mamarok> using Qt, of course
[09:28] <nhn> amik: IMO you should always start on what interest you the most as that is likely keep you motivated
[09:28] <nhn> :-)
[09:28] <Mamarok> oh, hay nhn :)
[09:28]  * nhn waves
[09:28] <nhn> its alive!
[09:29] <amik> I've done a few little patches in KDE, as nhn rightfully suggests - fixing up the ktorrent and monitoring plasmoids for starters (which were full of annoying bugs)
[09:29] <Mamarok> nhn: btw, seen that reminders and bug subscriptions I send you?
[09:29] <nhn> amik: well, fixing whatever annoys you the most at any one monemt is ususally a really good place to start
[09:29] <amik> I probably wouldn't know how to start them from scratch, but felt pretty much at home just reading the code and fixing things up (with a lot of tabs open on QT/KDE API docs)
[09:30] <nhn> Mamarok: yeah, I see them, I am just a bit pressed for time atm
[09:30] <Mamarok> nhn: well, there are a lot around you should fix, this is the tip of the iceberg, push back working on new features then :)
[09:30] <nhn> Mamarok: next week, perhaps. As my SO is going out of town for a week
[09:31] <nhn> Mamarok: I am not even doing that
[09:31] <Mamarok> great, so you can do bugfixes :)
[09:31] <nhn> Ihave not hacked on anything amarok related for a week or so, simply been too busy
[09:31] <Mamarok> amik: bugfixes is always a good place to start :)
[09:31] <nhn> I hope so. I do have at least one regression I need to fix before monday though
[09:32] <nhn> amik: you are always welcome to come help us kill bugs in Amarok! :-)
[09:32] <nhn> the app iself is pretty stable but there are many small issues that needs fixing
[09:32] <amik> I understand nearly everything is KDE, but was wondering if there's actually kubuntu development going on outside of kde
[09:33] <amik> nhn: I think the main problem I'd have there is that I don't use it... not as much motivation there, according to your previous guidelines :-)
[09:34] <Mamarok> amik: packaging mostly, bug triaging a lot, check out those points in the timelord paper
[09:34] <amik> hmmm... I suppose dolphin annoys me quite a bit, maybe I should check it out :-)
[09:34] <nhn> amik: good point!
[09:35] <amik> oh and the netbook gui, as you may have read (at least the first paragraph, I hope)
[09:35] <amik> I was really looking forward to the netbook edition, and was totally disappointed :-(
[09:36] <amik> but as u say, disappointment is also a motivator for improvement!
[09:37] <Mamarok> amik: why disapointed? it is a preview
[09:37] <Mamarok> the plasma-netbook remix you are talking about I presume
[09:38] <amik> why can't I be disappointed at a preview?
[09:38] <Mamarok> well, what did you expect? Too high expectations? also one needs to specify what exactly is disapointing
[09:38] <amik> yes, kubuntu-netbook/plasma-netbook
[09:39] <amik> Mamarok: I wrote it out in all too much detail already...
[09:39] <Mamarok> where?
[09:40] <amik> I expected it to add usability for netbooks (as compared to the desktop version). I found that it was much more cumbersome to use. Hence disappointment.
[09:41] <Mamarok> amik: well, you need to be more specific, and that would be a great place to start developing
[09:41] <amik> In either here or the netbook channel, from which I was pointed to the mailing list, from which I was pointed to another mailing list, was then told here to post at kde bugs, which then closed some as invalid and pointed me to discuss design issue in another mailing list...
[09:41] <amik> oh, I was too specific. I doubt anyone read through the end :-)
[09:42] <amik> all in all, I visited 3 irc channels, 3 mailing lists, and 2 bug trackers, just to get someone to listen to some feedback :-/
[09:44] <Mamarok> amik: talk to notmart, he is the main developer, not sure if there are many more
[09:44] <amik> I actually gave it up a bit short of the last mailing lists
[09:44] <Mamarok> amik: you give up fast, it only came out last week :)
[09:45] <Mamarok> amik: talk to notmart, as I said, and propose your coding skills
[09:47] <amik> yeah, well I guess I got discouraged from all the 'beauracracy' and everyone pointing me elsewhere... felt like wasted time. I could have done a new j2me app in that time...
[09:47] <amik> Mamarok: I'll try to catch notmart, thanks
[09:49] <amik> oh, and there's the small issue of dropped support for poulsbo, also disappointing. Though I'll probably be able to get it working from tips in the bug discussion.
[10:10] <Riddell> ScottK: KDM did have bulletproof X, but I havn't looked at it in a while and it may well have broken/disappeared in the mean time
[10:59] <apachelogger> amik: kubuntu development: software-properties-kde qt-language-selector, jockey-kde, apturl-kde, apport-kde, gdebi-kde, update-notifier-kde, update-manager-kde, ubiquity-kde
[10:59] <apachelogger> all of which are written in either pyqt or pykde
[10:59] <apachelogger> though
[10:59] <apachelogger> remarks
[11:00] <apachelogger> gdebi-kde is going to be replaced with kpackagekit once that is possible
[11:00] <apachelogger> update-notifier-kde is currently being rewritten in C++ as a kded module (i.e. some kind of desktop-level service running in background
[11:00] <apachelogger> )
[11:01] <apachelogger> oh
[11:01] <apachelogger> there is also install-package
[11:01] <apachelogger> which is going to be replaced by kpackagekit as well (hopefully)
[11:02] <apachelogger> and kubuntu-firefox-installer
[11:02] <apachelogger> which is written in rubykde
[11:02] <apachelogger> and usb-creator-kde
[11:02] <apachelogger> also pykde
[11:02] <apachelogger> actually... we have a darn large junk of apps :S
[11:02] <apachelogger> chunk even
[11:04] <Tm_T> junk apps?
[11:08] <apachelogger> some of them indeed are junk
[11:08] <apachelogger> namely those that depend on indention to work :P
[11:09] <apachelogger> Riddell: re bulletproof X... I think we never ported that to KDE 4
[11:09] <apachelogger> also, I am wondering how much use that got with the new X autoconfig stuff
[11:16] <MelisU> Hey guys, do you need help wizh someting?
[11:26] <Nightrose> hi MelisU
[11:26] <Nightrose> we always need help
[11:26] <Nightrose> what do you want to help with?
[11:27] <MelisU> I can do a quick test of some random package or something. I tested 4.3.3 for Riddell yesterday for example
[11:28] <MelisU> or I can try something else :)
[11:28] <MelisU> tell me
[11:28]  * Nightrose guesses Riddell, JontheEchidna or apachelogger have something to do for you ;-)
[11:29] <MelisU> what do you do?
[11:30] <Nightrose> me? I make people do stuff most of the time ;-)
[11:31] <Nightrose> and i give out cookies
[11:31] <apachelogger> oi!
[11:31] <apachelogger> cookies are m domain!
[11:31] <apachelogger> s/m/m
[11:31] <apachelogger> huh
[11:31] <apachelogger> my y is buggy
[11:32] <apachelogger> though I don't have anything to test right now
[11:32] <amik> apachelogger: lets put the ones that will be replaced soon aside... how about usb creator? does it have any open issues? that's something I actually use, was happy to see it standard in karmic
[11:33] <MelisU> @Nightrose: Then do very important work. Everybody loves cookies.
[11:33] <Nightrose> ;-)
[11:33]  * Tm_T has no cookie
[11:33] <averageMe> i dont know if this is the right time and place for this, but i wanted to thank all of you for this nice distro. i even beat a win7-guy in a bootup-race :)
[11:34] <averageMe> since he has a much newer laptop + user auto-login, he was a bit crestfallen afterwards :-P
[11:34] <amik> what he said ^^^ :-)
[11:35] <MelisU> @apachelogger: are there any really really simple programming jobs I can try and fail miserably?
[11:36] <apachelogger> amik: just head over to launchpad and search for bugs which include "kde"
[11:36] <Tm_T> jknlhjlkxdfthgs
[11:36] <apachelogger> for the usb-craetor package obviously :)
[11:36] <apachelogger> MelisU: nope, you could write specifications ;)
[11:36] <Tm_T> sorry, my daughter wanted this laptop
[11:37] <amik> apachelogger: about that, I got a q: I'm guessing most bugs are actually upstream KDE, how are bug reports handled then? dupliacate in launchpad and bugs.kde?
[11:37] <apachelogger> MelisU: or just grab a good tutorial on programming and improve your skills, or watch some tv to relax :)
[11:38] <Tm_T> MelisU: one way to help Kubuntu is to help KDE
[11:39] <MelisU> @apachelogger: OK, I will. If you see me here you can always ask me to test something.
[11:44]  * apachelogger leaves for his workshop on researching and stuff
[11:46] <amik> how do I search launchpad by package? can't seem to get it
[11:52] <Riddell> right, qt will get built today
[11:53] <Riddell> Lex79: it looks like the messages.sh stuff just needs turned into a dh7 target
[11:53]  * Riddell gives it a shot
[11:54] <Riddell> amik: depends what you're searching for
[11:54] <Riddell> packages.ubuntu.com has various searching options
[11:54] <Riddell> dantti: toma was after you the other day
[11:55] <dantti> Riddell: hmm do you know what was it about?
[11:56] <Riddell> something packagekity
[11:57] <dantti> Riddell: k, I'll try to poke him when i see he online, thanks
[11:59] <amik> anyone feel like helping me setting up a dev environment? I can start with software-properties-kde, which I recognize :-) (couldn't find any reported bugs for kde usb creator!)
[12:01] <Riddell> amik: bzr co lp:software-properties
[12:01] <Riddell> although I see there's also some more recently committedbranches at https://code.edge.launchpad.net/software-properties
[12:02] <amik> are usb-creator and usb-creator-kde the same package? they seem to be united when I search through launchpad
[12:03] <Riddell> amik: same source package yes
[12:04] <amik> which of the packages do u think it will be easier to start with?
[12:05] <Riddell> amik: software-properties at a guess, it doesn't interface with hardware
[12:06] <amik> is that also a single package with/without -kde?
[12:07] <Riddell> the source is yes
[12:07] <Riddell> it gets split up for the .deb installed packages
[12:08] <Riddell> amik: so first thing I'd do is apt-get source software-properties-kde; bzr co lp:software-properties  and make sure the two match
[12:08] <amik> how does versioning go? does it matter if I'm on jauny/karmic? is development on lucid?
[12:09] <Riddell> karmic is fine, probably jaunty is too
[12:10] <Riddell> but if you're on jaunty download it from launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/software-properties not with apt-get sourcec
[12:12] <amik> d/l the lucid one? (0.75.4)
[12:12] <Riddell> yes
[12:26] <amik> Riddell: bzr gives connection error. also warns about launchpad ID no set, but doesn't accept my id (even tough I'm logged in with it via web). any ideas?
[12:27] <Riddell> amik: try  bzr branch  instead of   co
[12:27] <serenity> hi
[12:27] <serenity> is there no more 'kde-core' in the repos?
[12:27] <amik> Riddell: "ERROR: Not a branch"
[12:28] <amik> Riddell: btw if there's a guide for setting all this up somewhere, I'd rather not bug u...
[12:29] <serenity> sorry, speaking of 9.10
[12:31] <Riddell> serenity: kde-standard now
[12:31] <serenity> Riddell: thanks
[12:32] <Riddell> amik: anything useful at https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/software-properties/main ?
[12:35] <amik> Riddell: what am I looking for?
[12:38] <Riddell> amik: instructions for branching it?
[12:39] <amik> amik: nothing that looks like instructions, more of a changelog
[12:40] <amik> a whole lot of bugfixes
[12:42] <Riddell> amik: set your launchpad login with   bzr launchpad-login <lpid>
[12:44] <Riddell> hum, but it doesn't work to do a branch right enough
[12:45] <amik> hmm... it doesn't recognize the id, even though I'm logged in on the web with it
[12:45] <Riddell> they released launchpad 3.1 today, I wonder if that's what is broken
[12:46] <amik> wait, the link when I click on the logged in name is not to the logged in name... how does this thing work? is there separate id and nick?
[12:46] <Riddell> no
[12:46] <Riddell> what's your lp id?
[12:47] <amik> what I see near the 'logout' button in the corner is 'amichair', but the link on it is to 'amichai2'. strange.
[12:47] <amichair> I'll try to get my nicks standardized :-)
[12:48] <Riddell> your lp id is amichai2, your human readable name it set to amichair
[12:48] <Riddell> ok topic of #launchpad is "http access to code hosted on Launchpad is offline -- we're working to fix this"
[12:48] <Riddell> so that explains that
[12:49] <amichair> ok, that's what I meant by separate id and nick :-)
[12:49] <Riddell> amichair: if you have an ssh key you can put that into launchpad then checkout code through ssh
[12:49] <amichair> Riddell: and if I don't?
[12:50] <Riddell> make one :)
[12:50] <Riddell> https://help.launchpad.net/YourAccount/CreatingAnSSHKeyPair
[12:52] <amichair> hmm... apparently I do have one... guess it's the same one used for ssh into this box
[12:53] <amichair> amichair: man the learning curve is... umm... whatever describes a tough one (steep? long? tall?)
[12:57] <amichair> Riddell: but bzr co still doesn't work
[13:01] <Riddell> well the learning curve would be better if launchpad wasn't broken today
[13:02]  * amichair lets out a sigh of relief... maybe he's not *that* stupid after all :-)
[13:02] <Riddell> amichair: bzr branch bzr+ssh://<amichai2>@bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Eubuntu-core-dev/software-properties/main/
[13:02] <Riddell> it may take a while for your ssh key to sync with the bazaar server however
[13:03] <amichair> are the angled brackets supposed to be in there?
[13:04] <Riddell> no
[13:04] <Riddell> remove them
[13:04] <amichair> no go, still fails (as before, stuck at 0kb for a couple minutes, then it'll quit with a connection error)
[13:06] <amichair> this TimeLord thing seems to be catching on. what an important-sounding and catchy name!
[13:06] <amichair> sometimes that's all it takes :-)
[13:07] <Riddell> probably your ssh key needs to sync to the other server.  here's a checkout anyway http://people.canonical.com/~jriddell/tmp/sp.tar.gz
[13:08] <amichair> I get a 'connection timed out', not key error, but could be.
[13:08] <amichair> thanx for the copy
[13:11] <amichair> Riddell: error in the archive, unexpected end of file. Murphy's law sucks.
[13:14] <Riddell> amichair: try re-downloading, it may not all ahve uploaded by then
[13:16] <amichair> Riddell: goody!
[13:17] <amichair> can I hack away?
[13:18]  * apachelogger just ordered books for another 90 EUR -.-
[13:22] <JontheEchidna> morning everyone
[13:22] <apachelogger> yo JontheEchidna
[13:23] <JontheEchidna> I separated the hook parsing and hook GUI into separate classes for kubuntu-notification-helper. HookEvent should be fairly clean now
[13:24] <JontheEchidna> plus I got the quoted hook commands working nicely
[13:24] <Riddell> amichair: do you know what you want to do?
[13:25] <amichair> Riddell: first I'll figure out how things work, then I guess I'll start with simple-looking bugs
[13:29] <ScottK> Riddell: Since Ubuntu is SRUing to fix broken bulletproof X in GDM, might be worth a look.
[13:31] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: I still find the hook stuff itself too complex :P
[13:32] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: also ... I was wondering if we really need a QMap to store the data
[13:32] <apachelogger> a low-level datatype might just as well do the job but not waste resources
[13:32] <JontheEchidna> There is a c++ rfc822  parser in libparser++-dev, but I never figured out how to use it
[13:32] <apachelogger> considering the stored data is mostly string or bool anyway?
[13:32] <JontheEchidna> it even has a deb822 parser implementation included
[13:33] <JontheEchidna> I just can't get it to work
[13:33] <apachelogger> oh dear
[13:33]  * apachelogger just noticed that tomorrow is deadline for his recursion exercise
[13:33] <apachelogger> oh my
[13:33]  * apachelogger starts crying
[13:34]  * ScottK warns on the dangers of recursive crying.
[13:34] <amichair> apachelogger: what would u prefer, recursion excercise or some real excercise?
[13:34] <apachelogger> recursion excerise!
[13:35] <apachelogger> well, not really since it is quite the PITA to implement but since my grade depends on it
[13:37] <Lure> Riddell: can I put kipi-plugins 0.8.0 to backports ppa for karmic?
[13:37] <Lure> Riddell: and do I need to get to lucid first (no lucid dev env yet)?
[13:42] <Riddell> Lure: why not in real backports?
[13:42] <apachelogger> Lure: generally a backport would indicate that it comes from something newer (thus the "back" ;))
[13:42]  * apachelogger leaves for programming lecture
[13:43] <ScottK> Riddell: Having it lucid first is a requirement for backports.
[13:43] <apachelogger> someone please reply to latest mail on kde-devel :)
[13:43] <apachelogger> eh
[13:43] <apachelogger> kubuntu-devel
[13:44] <ScottK> Lure: pbuilder login --save-after-login and dist upgrade while logged in is a quick way to have a Lucid environment.
[13:45] <bbigras> someone knows why the Kopete's package is still 4.3.2?
[13:48] <Lure> ScottK: thanks for idea - will do that
[13:49] <Lure> apachelogger: I know, but for me getting it from debian for current users of released ubuntu is also backport ;-)
[13:49] <Lure> Riddell: why not real backports for kde .x release?
[13:51] <Riddell> oh, gone
[13:54]  * Lure hates irc @ work :-(
[13:55] <ScottK> Lure: Working on getting tech board approval for KDE .x releases in -proposed/-updates
[13:56] <grahl> hi, concerning timelord, is there a place for the strategy/pr/branding discussion yet? i haven't found anything specific the wiki or on the mailing lists
[13:56] <Lure> ScottK: have seen your proposal - great work and hope it gets accepted
[13:56] <bbigras> Is the kdenetwork 4.3.3 package's still being worked on? before I ask on the ML about it
[14:02] <Riddell> grahl: there have been some initial discussion in here, not much
[14:02] <Riddell> bbigras: let mw look
[14:02] <bbigras> Riddell: ok, thanks
[14:03] <grahl> Riddell: would the next kubuntu meeting be the right place to bring that up? or is posting ideas/proposals to the mailing list better?
[14:03] <MelisU> @ScottK: Would hat mean that your average Kubuntu user would just get KDE X.X.X with regular updates?
[14:04] <ScottK> MelisU: Yes.
[14:04] <ScottK> After testing, of course.
[14:05] <MelisU> ScottK: Hmm...... actually that would be awesome :) But Gnome already get X.Y.Z releases, right?
[14:05] <ScottK> MelisU: Only for LTS releases.
[14:06] <Riddell> grahl: probably the mailing list is better
[14:06] <grahl> Riddell: thanks!
[14:07] <Riddell> starting in two days! https://edge.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-ppa/+archive/staging/+build/1320124
[14:07] <MelisU> ScottK: Has that always been true .. I think I got newer 2.6.22.z releases with updates when I was young and stupid and ran Gnome :)
[14:07] <Riddell> someone is clogging up PPAs
[14:07] <seele> is quassel supposed to work with the indicator display?
[14:07] <ScottK> Riddell: NCommander can fix that for you.  I gather most of the PPA buildd's are off being release mirrors right now.
[14:07] <Riddell> bbigras: upstream changed the tar at the last minute, I've uploaded the new one now but based on the above I don't know when it'll build
[14:07] <gnopak> The links to TimeLord PDF files at http://www.kubuntu.org/news/timelord are broken. Is Kubuntu web admin online?
[14:08] <ScottK> seele: Yes, but you have to enable it, not by default.
[14:08] <Riddell> grahl: JontheEchidna published that story I think
[14:08] <Riddell> gnopak: ^^
[14:08] <seele> ScottK: so i have to enable ayatana notifications AND the indicator display?
[14:08] <bbigras> Riddell: ok it's perfect. thanks!
[14:08] <seele> ScottK: is that per application or a global setting?
[14:08] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger was hosting those pdfs I believe
[14:08] <NCommander> Riddell, its due to the changes on how the PPA scheluder; it prevents a single PPA from tying up the entire build farm
[14:09] <ScottK> seele: Per application.  And yes, if you want it you have to enable it.
[14:09] <ScottK> seele: Per application was Ayatana's decision, not ours.
[14:10] <seele> interesting, was that for testing purposes or by design?
[14:10] <seele> it seems like a lot of trouble to go through your applications to enable the inidcator
[14:10]  * MelisU just found out of Quassels name auto completion! AWESOME
[14:10] <seele> it should be a global option of the message indicator to use it, or not at all
[14:10] <NCommander> MelisU, you mean tab?
[14:10] <seele> and enable/disable registered apps from both places
[14:10] <MelisU> NCommander: yup
[14:10] <NCommander> MelisU, pretty standard feature of every IRC client
[14:10] <ScottK> seele: By design.
[14:10]  * seele will never understand them
[14:10] <NCommander> MelisU, and bash supports it as well for command autocomplete :-)
[14:11] <gnopak> JontheEchidna: I do not regularly visit this channel. OK, I will try to tell apachelogger if we happen to be online at the same time.
[14:11] <ScottK> NCommander: Quassel's tends to be somewhat non-discoverable
[14:11] <MelisU> NCommander: I am new to IRC TBH
[14:11] <NCommander> ScottK, ?, I don't remember it working differently than in XChat
[14:11] <NCommander> Actually
[14:11] <NCommander> With the possible exception of early versions of collaqury on Mac OS X
[14:11]  * ScottK never used XChat.
[14:11] <NCommander> and pidgin
[14:11] <NCommander> every client recongizes it
[14:12] <NCommander> irssi, bitchx, etc.
[14:12] <ScottK> Quassel's tab completion is different than Konversations, but for a new IRC user any of it can be a suprise
[14:12] <NCommander> seele, is this the IM notification icon that sits there at all times in the system tray?
[14:12] <seele> NCommander: yes
[14:13] <NCommander> seele, hrm, I didn't realize it was in the default Kubuntu install (I have been using GNOME for the last few months)
[14:13] <seele> NCommander: it was part of the "compromise"
[14:13] <MelisU> NCommander: As I said: New to this stuff. Just glad I figured it out fairly soon. Any other major thing a noob should know=
[14:14] <NCommander> MelisU, :-)
[14:14] <NCommander> MelisU, quassel is a great IRC client ... if you don't idle in 50+ channels across 50 networks
[14:14] <NCommander> er
[14:14] <NCommander> 5 networks
[14:15] <NCommander> The backend begins to progressively lag :-/
[14:15] <ScottK> seele and NCommander: As I understand it, the patching of Gnome apps for an indicator was rather unconditional, so if we didn't have it, the user experience in KDE when using them would be not so great.
[14:15] <MelisU> NCommander: OK, so using Quassel and using tab is all there is to it. Sweet :)
[14:15] <ScottK> NCommander: There's a postgresql backend if you want it now.
[14:15] <NCommander> ScottK, ugh, they patched individual applications to make that thing work?
[14:15] <ScottK> NCommander: Yes.
[14:15] <NCommander> ScottK, I think having a full blown RBDMS to power an IRC client is in general overkill
[14:16] <NCommander> ScottK, I thought they were hooking into some dbus ABI, which is why it worked with pidgin
[14:16] <seele> ScottK: so they break if i remove the indicator aplet from my panel?
[14:17] <NCommander> seele, I zapped the applet in GNOME, and nothing went snap
[14:17] <ScottK> seele: Well for some definition of break.  You don't have any equivalent to an action for the notifications since those are removed.
[14:17] <NCommander> But the only app I ran that linked into it was pidgin
[14:17] <NCommander> ScottK, ?
[14:17] <ScottK> They don't explode or anything
[14:18] <NCommander> ScottK, I get the normal app notifications just fine
[14:18] <ScottK> NCommander: For example, Quassel, by default, will give you a notification with an action if you get highlighted.  Pidgin won't.  You need the indicator to get the equivalent.
[14:19] <NCommander> ScottK, ?
[14:19] <NCommander> ScottK, default install, I got both pidgin and the messenger app icons
[14:19] <ScottK> NCommander: No actions though.
[14:19] <NCommander> ScottK, actions?
[14:19] <ScottK> You can see the notification, but that's it.
[14:20] <NCommander> ScottK, its supposed to do something beside blink?
[14:21] <ScottK> For example, see the screen shot here: http://www.kitterman.org/ScottK/2009/04/
[14:21] <ScottK> If you click on 'view' it takes you right to the channel where you got highlighted.
[14:22] <NCommander> ScottK, right, but isn't that the stock KDE notification system?
[14:22] <ScottK> NCommander: Yes, but if you use the Ayatana system you don't get that.  You have to use the indicator.
[14:22] <NCommander> ScottK, ....
[14:23] <NCommander> ScottK, is there a way to flip that switch back?
[14:23] <ScottK> NCommander: For Kubuntu and KDE apps yes.
[14:23] <NCommander> ScottK, thats good.
[14:23] <ScottK> For Ubuntu, I think you hve to replace packages.
[14:23] <NCommander> ScottK, possibly with empathy. Pidgin works the way it used to it seems
[14:23] <ScottK> NCommander: For Kubuntu, none of our stuff has the Ayatana stuff enabled by default.  You have to want it.
[14:34] <rgreening> ScottK: so, in a fresh install, kopete has the ayatana enabled by default... did we intend this or miss it?
[14:34] <rgreening> haha
[14:35] <rgreening> oops right.
[14:35] <ScottK> rgreening: It's a bug.
[14:35] <rgreening> heh
[14:35] <ulysses__> It would be better, If it is a feature, I think Ayatana is more awesome than the other...(I forgot its name)
[14:36] <ScottK> The other is KDE.
[14:36] <ulysses__> Thanks
[14:36] <rgreening> the ayatana stuff is definately shaping up nicely. I use it... however there are still some usability bumps for me...
[14:36] <ghostcube> grml who made grub2 and who thought its coo
[14:36] <ghostcube> l
[14:36] <ghostcube> it just sux
[14:36] <ghostcube> :|
[14:37] <Mamarok> ghostcube: it's a double-sided sword, some people are happy with it, others have problems galore
[14:37] <ScottK> rgreening: This odd theory that having something happen if I click on an action (i.e. the system told me about something and now I want to do something about it) is a fatal flaw for me.
[14:37] <ScottK> ... is bad ...
[14:37] <ghostcube> Mamarok: its too splitted up
[14:38] <ghostcube> i former edited one file and all worked
[14:38] <ulysses__> ScottK: +1
[14:38] <Mamarok> yeah, the configuration is just too nerdy
[14:38] <rgreening> ScottK: I haven't had a case of that occur yet..
[14:38] <rgreening> but thats me...
[14:38] <Mamarok> reminds me of Lilo, one space too much and you have no bootmanager anymore *shudder*
[14:39]  * Mamarok wonders if SuSE still uses Lilo
[14:45] <troyvit> hey I read the timelord announcement here: http://www.kubuntu.org/news/timelord
[14:46] <troyvit> The link at the end of this sentence:
[14:46] <troyvit> A detailed specification of Project Timelord can be found here.
[14:46] <troyvit> leads to a 404:
[14:46] <troyvit> http://people.ubuntu.com/~apachelogger/Timelord/Project_Timelord_Announcement.pdf
[14:46] <Riddell> poke apachelogger
[14:46] <troyvit> thanks for making a kickass distro by the way
[14:46]  * troyvit pokes apachelogger too
[14:47] <rgreening> Riddell, ScottK, JontheEchidna, apachelogger, etc... I have someone who wishes to help out. His name is Jordan (aka da-bayman).
[14:47] <ScottK> Welcome da-bayman.
[14:47] <da-bayman> hello guys!
[14:47] <jussio1> Hi da-bayman
[14:47] <rgreening> ScottK: not hard to tell he's from NL :)
[14:48] <rgreening> bayman is a term for someone from outside the city (ie around the bay) :)
[14:48]  * ScottK is behing on doing actual work, so see you later.
[14:49] <rgreening> da-bayman has been helping out some users with some minor issues, but wishes to help out with 10.04 going forward...
[14:49] <rgreening> Perhaps in bug triage (JontheEchidna, apachelogger can help with that) or documentation (jjesse, nixternal can help with that)
[14:51] <da-bayman> yep, i've been messing around with kubuntu for some time now since rgreening converted me. I've read many forums and believe i can help at least a little wit the progression of kubuntu.
[14:52] <rgreening> that's awesome da-bayman, as we can surely use the help. We are a small team in comparison to the larger Ubuntu teams, so every little bit helps.
[14:52] <rgreening> da-bayman: you should check out https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HelpingKubuntu
[14:52] <da-bayman> rgreening: K.
[14:53] <rgreening> da-bayman: and see if anything there peaks your interest.
[14:53] <JontheEchidna> I think we're recommending this one now: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/GettingInvolved
[14:54] <rgreening> da-bayman: see what JontheEchidna posted as an alternate link to review....
[14:54] <JontheEchidna> or at least want to make it an alternative eventually :D
[14:54] <JontheEchidna> still has some empty pages so I guess we're not recommending it now
[14:54] <jwisser> JontheEchidna: Eventually we're going to need to add something about marketing/promotion.
[14:55] <rgreening> JontheEchidna: do you have any good advice or docs for da-bayman wrt bug triaging? He can probably hit the ground running on that...
[14:56] <JontheEchidna> hmmz
[14:56] <bmunger> hi guys.. why is kde 4.3.3 in backports?  I asked here last time and I was told it was going to be part of the regular upgrade in karmic
[14:59] <JontheEchidna> For bug triage... a bit Ubuntu-centric perhaps, but: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HelpingWithBugs
[14:59] <JontheEchidna> also of interest: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/DebuggingKDE
[14:59] <JontheEchidna> rgreening, da-bayman^
[15:00] <rgreening> thanks JontheEchidna
[15:00] <da-bayman> jontheechidna: ok thanks, got some reading material now anyway!
[15:00] <rgreening> da-bayman: feel free to review the above suggestions and ping me or JontheEchidna if you get stuck or want some advice. great to have you on board to help.
[15:01] <rgreening> :)
[15:01] <da-bayman> great to be a part of it!
[15:01] <rgreening> 10.04 will be a rocking release for us... it's should be LTS (long term supported release) for us
[15:02] <rgreening> and KDE 4.4, Qt 4.6... all with great improvements...
[15:05] <da-bayman> great! hope i can help
[15:08] <rgreening> im sure you will do fine. we have a great bunch of people here... most anyone will be able to help point you in the right direction. feel free to ask questions.
[15:09] <ghostcube> Mamarok: yeah lilo was cool :D
[15:09] <ghostcube> and suse is on grub now
[15:09] <ghostcube> :)
[15:10] <Mamarok> nah, lilo was a pita, horrible to tweak
[15:10] <ghostcube> hmm i loved mi lilola
[15:10] <ghostcube> :D
[15:10] <ghostcube> maybe i love grub2 sometimes too but at the moment i want my menu.lst
[15:13] <jwisser> Everyone: Who do you personally think Kubuntu is aimed at?
[15:18] <jwisser> …anyone? Bueller?
[15:20] <ScottK> bmunger: We need tech board approval to get it into the regular updates.  PPA is for testing and while we wait for approval.
[15:20] <ScottK> jwisser: I already gave you my list.
[15:25] <jwisser> ScottK: I guess what I'm trying to get a sense of is whether that's the community list, and what groups we already have and to what extent.
[15:25] <ScottK> Certainly.  I just didn't want you to feel ignored entirely.
[15:26] <jwisser> Do we already have the KDE diehards? Or do we need to work for them? If we need to work for them, how does focusing on them detract from our ability to focus on small businesses.
[15:26] <jwisser> *?
[15:26] <jwisser> Appreciated. :-)
[15:26] <seele> i didnt realise small businesses was a target
[15:26] <ScottK> seele: That was my suggestion as a stretch goal for the future.
[15:26] <seele> hmm
[15:26] <jwisser> Okay; I wasn't clear that that was a stretch goal.
[15:27] <ScottK> Sorry
[15:27] <seele> maybe after akonadi matures
[15:27] <ScottK> And we have good Samba integration
[15:27] <ScottK> A web browser that doesn't suck
[15:27] <seele> linux desktop in general isnt going to succeed in business until there is a seamless exchange integration or replacement
[15:27] <ScottK> Yep
[15:27] <seele> exchange is probably the #1 linux business problem
[15:27]  * ScottK was about to type that or Kolab suddenly gets wonderful.
[15:28] <seele> everything else can be compromised in some qay. samba can work with some massaging, firefox is already used by the general public, etc.
[15:28] <ScottK> openchange gives us the basis for solving the Exchange problem, but it will take a while.
[15:30] <jwisser> Being called away by actual work.
[15:31]  * Tonio_ is really impressed testing rekonq-daily package....
[15:31] <Tonio_> the 0.3 version has a completly new UI à la chrome
[15:33] <bmunger> ScottK, is tech board approval ever going to happen for monthly kde updates?
[15:33] <ScottK> bmunger: I just finished getting the proposal together and submitted yesterday, so they haven't had a lot of time yet.
[15:33] <Tonio_> ScottK: http://www.planetemu.net/temp/rekonq.png
[15:33] <Tonio_> ScottK: isn't this nice ?
[15:34] <ScottK> Tonio_: All web browsers suck.  They just suck in slightly different and unpredictable ways.
[15:34] <Tonio_> ScottK: hum, you're rude this time :)
[15:35] <ScottK> Tonio_: Sorry.  Didn't mean to be rude.  Just in a bit of a negative mood this morning.
[15:35] <Tonio_> ScottK: the thing is that if it gets adblock support and kwallet integration, it would be a good replacement for konq as this is a kde app basically :)
[15:35] <Tonio_> ScottK: testing it I went to the conclusion arora might not be the only way to go
[15:35] <ScottK> Well I think we should have another what's our browser going to be discussion.
[15:36] <Riddell> they're working on both of those
[15:36] <Riddell> "We'll probably have kdewebkit + kwallet + adblock features ready before
[15:36] <Riddell> Christmas. So a rekonq 0.3.70 based on Qt 4.6 and KDE 4.4."
[15:36] <Riddell> is what he said to me
[15:37] <jussio1> hhrrr. Tonio_Ive the latest one and it crashes on gmail :(
[15:37] <Riddell> it leaks memory like a seive on gmail, but maybe qt 4.6 will help with that
[15:37]  * jussio1 prays and hopes...
[15:38] <jussio1> anyway, off to make dinner...
[15:40] <skreech> Quick Question Who is in charge of the releases server?
[15:40] <Riddell> canonical sysadmin
[15:40] <Daskreech> Riddell: Should the verbage for KNR read as it does at http://releases.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/9.10/ ?
[15:40] <Tonio_> Riddell: yeah, that's great really
[15:41] <bmunger> ScottK: ok cool, thanks.  hope all goes well then.
[15:42] <Tonio_> Riddell: the UI is very IE like anyway... but that's not bas for our new users I think
[15:42] <ScottK> Daskreech: What's wrong with it?
[15:42] <Riddell> Daskreech: what's wrong with it?
[15:44] <Daskreech> Concerned about the choose this one if you are unsure
[15:44] <Daskreech> Shouldn't it more explictly state this is a preview and caution is needed?
[15:46] <Riddell> maybe but the text is automatically generated and changes need patches to code.  I don't want it saying it's a CD either but I couldn't get a patch done in time
[15:46] <jwisser> Rekonq looks nice indeed.
[15:53] <amichair> Riddell: say I fixed a bug, now what? (working off your tarball)
[16:06] <Riddell> amichair: bzr commit --local
[16:07] <amichair> Riddell: ERROR: Unknown working tree format: 'Bazaar Working Tree Format 6 (bzr 1.14)\n'
[16:08] <Quintasan> hurr durr, in which repo we have 4.3.3 packages?
[16:08] <amichair> Riddell: (it's a 2-line fix, so I don't mind doing this over if it's quicker)
[16:15] <Riddell> amichair: well you can attach the diff to a bug alternatively
[16:15]  * Riddell doesn't know if he should reply to the posts on harald's "asking for input" thread
[16:16] <ScottK> Riddell: I think someone should.  You're a calm enough sort to do it well.
[16:17] <ScottK> Riddell: The main point I'd suggest making on the Ayatana stuff (I drafted a reply, but it wasn't very good) is that they are trying to collaborate, even if it's painful, they're new and we (Kubuntu and KDE) need to help them get better at it.
[16:19] <Riddell> I really don't get that, what do they object to?  the message indicator is the most invasive thing and it's 100 times better than what kde 4.3 ships with
[16:24] <neversfelde> will we remove koffice 1.6 in lucid?
[16:25] <Quintasan> Riddell: urgh, debian has 4.3.2 in repos, serious, I think I'm missing something
[16:26] <Riddell> Quintasan: how do you mean?
[16:26] <Riddell> Quintasan: we want to use our 4.3.3 and merge with debian's 4.3.2
[16:26] <Quintasan> argh, okay
[16:26] <Riddell> neversfelde: yes it's dead
[16:26] <Riddell> neversfelde: did you ever get the RC packaged?
[16:26]  * Quintasan finds reading debdiffs confusing
[16:27] <neversfelde> Riddell: currently working on it
[16:27] <Riddell> Quintasan: our 4.3.3 is in the PPA or the packaging is in bzr
[16:27] <Riddell> Quintasan: yes debdiffs are confusing, they're often diffs of diffs so you need to be careful
[16:27] <neversfelde> there is a version in the experimental ppa, but it still has some problems
[16:27] <neversfelde> and builders are busy, next build will start 07/11 :)
[16:27]  * ScottK thought we'd be merging into Lucid, not the PPA for Karmic?
[16:27] <Riddell> yeah I know :(
[16:28] <Riddell> ScottK: we're merging into lucid from debian and karmic ppa
[16:28] <ScottK> OK
[16:28] <Riddell> I wonder if qt has done linking yet, it's only been doing it for the last hour
[16:31] <txwikinger> Hey guys.. want some snow?
[16:32] <Riddell> not only had it not done linking but my computer had spontaniously rebooted.  I think I need more than a gig of memory to compile Qt
[16:32] <txwikinger> Riddell: and more than 1G to run it ;)
[16:32] <Riddell> txwikinger: is there snow in Texas?
[16:33] <txwikinger> Riddell: No.. not in Texas
[16:33] <txwikinger> well.. it could, if it comes don't from the Rockies
[16:33] <txwikinger> but it would still be odd around that time (I guess you mean UDS)
[16:42] <Daskreech> oh I like the old Krita
[16:42] <Daskreech>  it works really nicely
[16:42] <Daskreech> It's the only KDE3 app I still use
[16:43] <Riddell> new Krita is nice too
[16:43] <Riddell> it has issues you need to work around but nothing major
[16:43] <neversfelde> koffice isn't nice :D
[16:43] <neversfelde> but I like it too
[16:44] <Riddell> it could do with the source being split up, same for qt
[16:51] <ScottK> Until it has MS Office format compatibility on par with OOo, it's not of much interest to me.
[16:53] <Riddell> alas with that argument MS wins by default
[16:55] <Quintasan> Riddell: just to be sure whether I'm doing it right or not (changelog merging) -> http://pastebin.com/f6c50a16f
[16:57] <ScottK> Riddell: 100% of my consulting customers us MS Office, so it's essential for me.  Since they are the customer and I'm the consultant, I really can't tell them to go download something that uses ODF.
[16:58] <Riddell> Quintasan: seems fine.  you may want to keep the 4.3.3 ~ppa1 changelog entry in there
[16:59] <Quintasan> hmm I just removed ~ppa1 form there, so I'd better add it back
[17:02] <Quintasan> Riddell: my entry after merge should be 4:4.3.3-0-ubuntu1 lucid, right?
[17:03] <Riddell> Quintasan: yes
[17:03] <Riddell> Quintasan: you have an extra dash in there
[17:03] <Riddell> 4:4.3.3-0ubuntu1 lucid
[17:03] <Quintasan> oh right
[17:04] <Daskreech> how many Shipit Cds are you restricted to now?
[17:05] <Riddell> 1 I think
[17:05] <Riddell> possibly 1 for ever more as well, no future releases (I'm not sure)
[17:05] <Daskreech> Can I request more as an OEM?
[17:06] <Daskreech> or buy to be more specific
[17:06] <Riddell> OEMs can jolly well pay for them
[17:06] <Riddell> yes you should be able to buy them from the ubuntu shop
[17:06] <Daskreech> Right Ok great
[17:07] <ScottK> There's also a special request option where you can ask for whatever you want
[17:08] <Quintasan> Riddell: I found reviewing debian/* files by hand much faster than debdiff :P
[17:10] <Riddell> Quintasan: hmm, you're likely to miss stuff if it's only by hand, I tend to run diff manually on stuff like debian/rules and debian/control
[17:11] <Daskreech> Funny how it's quoted in pounds afor a Euro audience
[17:11] <Daskreech>  Also you cannot buy any Kubuntu items anymore
[17:12] <Riddell> http://shop.canonical.com/product_info.php?products_id=538&osCsid=a343fea178f61a1c4f3d55b1101dc5f2 is the CDs
[17:13] <Quintasan> hurr, 4.3.3 packages aint in Lucid and Ninjas PPA is missing lucid files, what to do Riddell?
[17:15] <Daskreech> Yeah I found them. Listed in pounds for Euro using audience :)
[17:17] <Daskreech> I was just commenting on that and the lack of Kubuntu items in the store
[17:17] <Quintasan> it's certainly not mine day, everything goes wrong -_-
[17:19] <Riddell> Daskreech: well the shop is for everyone !US, and it's based in England so they use the obsolete currency that English insists on sticking with
[17:19] <EagleScreen> Firefox has an Add-on to use Plasma notification system, you may want to package it for Lucid, and also the packages which make Firefox to have KDE dialog to save and open files
[17:20] <Quintasan> god dammit
[17:21] <Riddell> EagleScreen: got a link?
[17:22] <EagleScreen> yes, one momment
[17:23] <EagleScreen> Riddell: here there is a PPA: https://edge.launchpad.net/~debfx/+archive/firefox-kde
[17:24] <EagleScreen> it seems the work was made by OpenSuse, there is a link to it in PPA page
[17:24] <Riddell> ok, part of those, I'll make a session at UDS to discuss that with asac
[17:25] <EagleScreen> Riddell: here is the page of PlasmaNotify firefox Add-on https://addons.mozilla.org/es-ES/firefox/search?q=plasmanotify
[17:25] <EagleScreen> i am using both tools sucessfully
[17:28] <EagleScreen> with these packages + kcmgtk, Firefox might become a good web browser for Kubuntu
[17:29] <ScottK> Daskreech: They do have some Kubuntu stuff, so progress
[17:30] <Daskreech> ScottK:
[17:30] <Daskreech> ScottK: http://shop.canonical.com ?
[17:32] <ScottK> Daskreech: Hmmm.  US shop does: http://usshop.ubuntu.com/category.php?catid=7
[17:34] <Riddell> ScottK: I think we're using <category>-<track>-name for specs
[17:34] <ScottK> Ohh.
[17:34] <Riddell> ScottK: so kubuntu-lucid-ayatana-integratin
[17:35] <ScottK> OK.
[17:35] <Riddell> ScottK: please add to https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuLucidSpecs
[17:35] <Riddell> ScottK: and have you asked agateau about that?
[17:35] <ScottK> agateau: How about that ^^^
[17:35] <ScottK> Yes
[17:36]  * agateau reads, but has to go real soon now
[17:36] <ScottK> agateau: Basically the same spec a last time
[17:36] <agateau> :)
[17:39] <agateau> ok time to go
[17:39] <agateau> bye
[17:39] <EagleScreen> i am currently using Ayatana notifications in karmic, the only issue i have seen is that available updates notification hasn't icon to start review and update, therefor, there must be to find a solution to this
[17:40] <ScottK> The solution is either don't use Ayatana notification or go start the update manually via the menu.
[17:41] <ScottK> Ayatana believes that you being able to do something with a notification is a bad idea.
[17:41] <EagleScreen> or adopt the Ubuntu policy
[17:41] <ScottK> No.
[17:42] <EagleScreen> to your orders, sir ,lol
[17:42] <ScottK> Well if Kubuntu does that, I doubt I'll care because I'll be using some other distro.
[17:42] <seele> does anyone use ubuntu one?
[17:42] <ScottK> Outside Ubuntu?
[17:43] <Riddell> I tried to once but it didn't run, that was yonks ago
[17:43] <ScottK> I think foresight uses it.
[17:43] <Riddell> oh why is the wiki broken just as I want to sort out our specs
[17:44] <txwikinger> I played a little around with Ubuntu One
[17:44] <Quintasan> Riddell: http://hs.quintasan.pl/debdiff.tar.gz -> fixed now (propably)
[17:44] <seele> ScottK: yeah.. i just installed it but it doesnt seem to work
[17:44] <seele> i can't connect or whatever that means
[17:44] <EagleScreen> i also think that no actions in notification bubbles is a bad idea, but ayatana style is more.... beautiful, clean?
[17:44] <txwikinger> seele: delete the gnome keyring
[17:45] <ScottK> The Kubuntu Ayatana stuff works (at least for notifications, kmail, and quassel) when enabled.  I did test that.
[17:45] <ScottK> EagleScreen: The problem is that as long as Ayatana insists on no actions, there is no chance upstream KDE will listen to them about any notification stuff.
[17:47] <EagleScreen> yes, and I understand it, I think actions are a good idea, may be a mix of both would be perfect, but no much effort will be done by anyone
[17:48] <ScottK> I think that there are some nice points.
[17:49] <Riddell> Tonio_: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-file-sharing can you rename that to kubuntu-lucid-file-sharing and mark me as approver
[17:49] <ScottK> For example, I like the way Ayatana notifications fade in better, but the way the KDE ones fade out.
[17:50] <Riddell> the main problem I have with the KDE ones is they aren't visually related to the "i"
[17:51] <ScottK> I think the interaction between jobs and notifications is poor.
[17:52] <ScottK> I particularly dislike the way recently complete jobs also maximize when a new notification comes in.
[17:52] <ScottK> I'd like it if agateau would work on that.
[17:52] <ScottK> I think making that stuff work together better would improve the user experience and be upstreamable
[17:53] <Riddell> rgreening: for https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/touchpad-config-kde/ please rename to kubuntu-lucid-touchpad-config and mark me as approver
[17:55] <rgreening> ok.
[17:55] <ScottK> Riddell: I added mine to the wiki page (did one for netbook stuff too)
[17:56]  * Riddell feels a wiki edit conflict coming
[17:56]  * JontheEchidna just edited the merge chart
[17:56] <EagleScreen> why do not keep upstream names for packages, as like as kcmtouchpad in place of touchpad-config-kde?
[17:56] <ScottK> When I added mine it tole me you were expired.
[17:56] <ScottK> tole/told
[17:56] <JontheEchidna> EagleScreen: that's just the specification name
[17:57] <JontheEchidna> the goal is to get some form of touchpad config in kubuntu, and it was made before kcm_touchpad was made
[17:57] <JontheEchidna> the package will most likely be called kcm-touchpad
[17:57] <Riddell> "Internal Server Error" that's what we get for editing the same wiki page at the same time
[17:57] <EagleScreen> okay okay, I understand, thanks
[17:57] <JontheEchidna> Riddell: I got that too just trying to load the wiki page
[17:57] <JontheEchidna> EagleScreen: no prob :)
[17:58] <JontheEchidna> actually the spec wiki page is outdated, I can see why you'd think we would name the package touchpad-config-kde
[17:59] <ScottK> JontheEchidna and Riddell: I got that for w.k.o, but w.u.c worked
[17:59] <JontheEchidna> reloading fixed it for me
[18:01] <JontheEchidna> Riddell: so we're merging 4.3.3, right?
[18:01] <Riddell> JontheEchidna: right.  our 4.3.3 packages with debian's 4.3.2 packages
[18:02] <JontheEchidna> ok
[18:02] <Riddell> or whatever they have uploaded most recently
[18:05] <JontheEchidna> I hate the new Launchpad PPA UI
[18:06] <JontheEchidna> by the way, I thought we were using the main kubuntu-ppa for microreleases to the latest release?
[18:06] <JontheEchidna> backports is for KDE 4.x+1 to the most recent release
[18:09] <Riddell> JontheEchidna: hmm, they should be in updates rather than backports right enough
[18:10] <Riddell> fooey
[18:10] <JontheEchidna> there's always next time
[18:10] <txwikinger> we seem to have several kubuntu filesharing blueprints
[18:12] <Riddell> we do one every UDS :(
[18:12] <txwikinger> Do they get closed when not current anymore?
[18:13] <Riddell> sometimes, it has to be done manually
[18:14] <Riddell> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuLucidSpecs all done for now
[18:15] <txwikinger> The current parts  from https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-filesharing could be moved to the new one and this one be closed
[18:15] <Riddell> JontheEchidna: is your phonon package somewhere I can get?  this qt compile might be done sometime today
[18:15] <Riddell> txwikinger: poke Tonio_ with that
[18:15] <JontheEchidna> Riddell: will a diff from the current debian package do?
[18:15] <Riddell> txwikinger: and specs you're wanting this UDS?
[18:15] <Riddell> JontheEchidna: sure
[18:16] <txwikinger> Tonio_: The current parts  from https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-filesharing could be moved to the new one and this one be closed
[18:16] <ScottK> Riddell: We need some kind of web browser cage deathmatch spec too.
[18:17] <txwikinger> Riddell: Not sure.. I am still looking through what is already theere
[18:17] <Mamarok> I wonder what I need to isntall or tweak to be able to run Strigi...
[18:17] <Riddell> an apps review spec maybe?
[18:17] <JontheEchidna> http://paste.ubuntu.com/310795/
[18:38] <rmrfslash> can I add the karmic backports repo to my jaunty sources.list and upgrade to 4.3.3 or will this almost certainly have the potential to break things?
[18:38] <JontheEchidna> it would probably be a bad idea
[18:39] <rmrfslash> I did add deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/kubuntu-ppa/backports/ubuntu karmic main to my sources list and ran apt-get update, afterwards this did show all the 4.3.3 stuff it was ready to apply but I thought, ehhh I should check on this before just blindly hitting "yes"
[18:48] <rmrfslash> sounds good
[18:49] <rmrfslash> thanks for leaving jaunty out in the cold
[18:49] <rmrfslash> force people to upgrade to 9.10 that has a 10% upgrade success rate
[18:49] <rmrfslash> l8er
[18:56] <Nightrose> 10% upgrade success rate?
[18:56] <Nightrose> Oo
[18:56]  * Nightrose loves pulling numbers out of her behind too
[18:56] <JontheEchidna> did you know that 45.3% of statistics are made up on the spot?
[18:57] <Nightrose> no and i actually think it's more like 45.4%
[18:57] <Nightrose> small but significant difference
[18:59] <JontheEchidna> obviously the upgrade did not work for him
[18:59] <JontheEchidna> and he is 90% of our userbase
[18:59] <Nightrose> you and me being the other 10%? :D
[19:00] <JontheEchidna> :D
[19:04] <MelisU> Hi guys and gals, I have a problem with playing .FLV in dolphin and VLC. Any1 know which package has the audio codec for FLV?
[19:05] <MelisU> sorry wrong channel ..
[19:09] <MelisU> BTW: will dragon player get automatic codec download ?
[19:13] <txwikinger> well.. 10% success rate in 100% of the cases with problems is quite good I would say ;)
[19:15] <ScottK> MelisU: Yes.  It has it.
[19:15] <ScottK> I've had 100% success with upgrades here.
[19:16] <MelisU> ScottK: Not working for the second part of that lugradio docu from blip .. but that file is strange. Other FLV seem to run fine. I just download the big 2GB .. wth I don't have to pay for bandwidth ;)
[19:17] <txwikinger> I had far better upgrades than in the past too
[19:17] <seele> it's funny that people are having so much trouble with upgrades
[19:17] <seele> this is the first upgrade in YEARS that has worked without screweing up
[19:18] <seele> upgrades never work for me so i was pretty happy it actually worked this time, heh
[19:23] <JontheEchidna> anybody know what the kubuntu-kmenu-<size>.png.uu files are for?
[19:23] <JontheEchidna> in the kde4libs packaging
[19:25] <JontheEchidna> oh the branded kmenu
[19:26] <JontheEchidna> which we aren't using. Should I remove it?
[19:27] <yuriy> just upgraded my jaunty32 vm, no crashes this time
[19:30] <claydoh> my jaunty-karmic *and* my hardy-karmic went swimmingly
[19:31] <claydoh> i installed hardy just to test the upgrade, it was rather boring and uneventful
[19:32] <Nightrose> yea since hardy my upgrades went without problems too
[19:33] <claydoh> http://laserjock.wordpress.com/2009/11/04/the-myth-of-the-bad-ubuntu-release/
[19:33] <claydoh> sums it ut I guess
[19:33] <claydoh> sums it up
[19:34] <claydoh> every new  release finds a number of "wordt release ever' threads in kubuntuforums
[19:34] <claydoh> sorry can't type today
[19:35] <claydoh> tho I see some of the new threads are from authors of previous "worst-ever" posts :(
[19:35] <ScottK> Most of the netbook feedback Google finds for me seems to be pretty good.
[19:35] <MelisU> maybe it is the proliferation of PPA or people install stuff from source or something that breaks those upgrades
[19:36] <claydoh> MelisU: the upgrade disables those ppas
[19:37] <claydoh> but I am sure that is a little bit of it
[19:42] <ScottK> claydoh: It disables the PPAs, but doesn't remove stuff already installed from thost PPAs
[19:45] <amichair> the browse file dialog in software-properties for adding keys shows only *.pgp files, whereas mostly (only) gpg ones are used... is this a software properties bug (use *.gpg instead) or kde bug (show both *.pgp and *.gpg for the application/pgp-keys mime type)?
[19:50] <JontheEchidna> amichair: what version of Kubuntu?
[19:51] <amichair> I took from bzr
[19:51] <amichair> oh wait, but working on jaunty
[19:51] <JontheEchidna> hmm, I thought something to address a similar issue was in for 9.10
[19:51] <amichair> sorry, could be that
[19:52] <amichair> I'll check
[19:53] <JontheEchidna> in 9.10 it is: KFileDialog.getOpenFileName(url, '*.asc *.pkr *.skr *.gpg *.gpgkey| PGP keys', self.userinterface, utf8(_("Import key")))
[19:53] <JontheEchidna> ah, no pgp though
[19:53] <JontheEchidna> wait, but your issue was that it only took pgp
[19:55] <amichair> JontheEchidna: I just posted a patch for something else in system-properties, and noticed this bug... but looking at the code I don't see the line above
[19:55] <amichair> JontheEchidna: am I looking in the wrong place? (this is my first time working on kubuntu code)
[19:58] <amichair> JontheEchidna: the dialog in karmic still shows only "PGP keys" in the filter
[19:58] <rgreening> Riddell: updated launchpad entry for touchpad config
[19:59] <JontheEchidna> amichair: it should show all those file types in the file browser, but only say PGP keys in the filter box (I think)
[20:01] <amichair> JontheEchidna: yep, I see gpg and pgp both shown
[20:01] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna, Riddell: the unavailability of the pdfs was apparently caused by canonical :P
[20:01] <JontheEchidna> that's good
[20:01] <amichair> JontheEchidna: oops no - no pgp
[20:01] <apachelogger> that is why I wanted to use google docs :P
[20:01] <JontheEchidna> amichair: ah, yeah. it's not in the filter
[20:02] <amichair> JontheEchidna: where is that snippet taken from?
[20:02] <JontheEchidna> SoftwarePropertiesKDE.py
[20:04] <amichair> damn, I must be looking at old code. I did "bzr co lp:software-properties" as Riddell advised, is that not the latest code? I'm confused :-/
[20:05] <amichair> he was even kind enough to send me a tarball before I got bzr to work, and it's the same
[20:10] <amichair> JontheEchidna: can u please point me to the latest and greatest version?
[20:11] <JontheEchidna> that should be the right one
[20:13] <neversfelde> I am a little bit confused, why is 4.3.3 for karmic in the backports ppa, don't we use the updates ppa for bug fix releases?
[20:14] <JontheEchidna> neversfelde: yes, it was a mistake that it was put in backports
[20:14] <neversfelde> ah ok :)
[20:15] <amichair> JontheEchidna: I see: KFileDialog.getOpenFileName(url, 'application/pgp-keys', self.userinterface, utf8(_("Import key")))
[20:15] <JontheEchidna> strange
[20:22] <amichair> JontheEchidna: indeed :(
[20:26] <markey> hmmm
[20:26] <markey> 21:22 < jarle> So what is the trick to get amarok working in kubuntu 9.10? If I have the phonon-xine-backend installed it crashes upon startup, and if I use the phonon-gstreamer-backend I get no sound... (I get(<unknown>:22916): GStreamer-CRITICAL **: gst_element_make_from_uri: assertion `gst_uri_is_valid (uri)' failed)
[20:26] <markey> gstreamer is not default, right?
[20:26] <markey> so I'm wondering what happened there with that guy
[20:27] <ScottK> Weird.  Good sound here on 4 systems.
[20:27] <ScottK> I had to remove pulseaudio on one
[20:27] <ScottK> It crawled in somewhere due to recommends
[20:28] <JontheEchidna> markey: gstreamer is not default for kubuntu, no. But if gstreamer is installed on an ubuntu system then then phonon-gstreamer will be installed because it brings in less depends
[20:28] <markey> afaik Phonon-xine is default on Kubuntu, is why I'm confused
[20:28] <markey> JontheEchidna: ah
[20:29] <markey> well that is bad. the gstreamer backend is so buggy, it's not funny
[20:29] <markey> who came up with that idea?
[20:29] <JontheEchidna> the gstreamer backend? Qt I think
[20:29] <markey> yeah, true
[20:29] <JontheEchidna> then they dropped it like the flaming pile of s**t it is
[20:29] <markey> Nokia messed this up for good
[20:29] <markey> yep
[20:30] <markey> we're not too happy with them in that regard
[20:30] <markey> oh btw, on that topic: we will have a Phonon Bugday on the 8th this month
[20:30] <markey> if you want to join and got some time :)
[20:30] <markey> everyone welcome :)
[20:31] <JontheEchidna> though I heard its maintainer did leave for valid reasons
[20:31] <JontheEchidna> they just never took any effort to replace him
[20:31] <JontheEchidna> or something to that degree
[20:31] <JontheEchidna> whoa, really laggy
[20:34] <amichair> well, there's no point fixing bugs on outdated code. I'll go make some food :-)
[20:36] <markey> not sure what he's getting at here
[20:37] <markey> but enjoy your food
[20:38] <JontheEchidna> oh, for some reason his checkout of software-properties is outdated
[20:38] <JontheEchidna> and we don't know why
[20:46] <JontheEchidna> dtchen: ping
[21:10] <nookie^> JontheEchidna: let's start by looking at this screene
[21:10] <nookie^> http://imagebin.ca/view/Fd8lH1ZP.html
[21:11] <nookie^> look ath the desktop
[21:11] <nookie^> why having uBlog by default?
[21:12] <JontheEchidna> that's only a problem for small screens such as virtual machines
[21:12] <nookie^> yeah
[21:12] <nookie^> but why have it there?
[21:12] <nookie^> what useful information it's giving to normal users
[21:12] <JontheEchidna> It's a social desktop feature, to introduce social features by default
[21:13] <nookie^> we need to have in mind of users who never used linux before
[21:13] <nookie^> and i don't really belive it's presenting very useful information
[21:13] <JontheEchidna> hmm, maybe not
[21:13] <apachelogger> +10000000000000000000000000000000000000000
[21:13] <JontheEchidna> the patches used to get that also have caused numerous problems
[21:13] <nookie^> that everyuser should see when they install kubuntu
[21:14] <nookie^> yeah i really vote for removing it
[21:14] <JontheEchidna> just clutter that looks bad on small screens
[21:14] <nookie^> exactly
[21:14] <amichair> +1 (for what it's worth)
[21:15] <nookie^> but also it's not presenting very  useful information =)
[21:15] <nookie^> it's just taking alot of very important place
[21:16] <JontheEchidna> also, maybe we could get rid of the date since it really doesn't go to well with the smaller panel
[21:16] <nookie^> shall we continue? or can something be decided about that widget?
[21:16] <JontheEchidna> nothing will probably be decided now, I would imagine. at the least it'd take discussion on a mailing list or IRC before changes could be made
[21:17] <nookie^> okej
[21:17] <apachelogger> or you could just change it :P
[21:17] <JontheEchidna> but to get developers thinking in the right direction, you're doing a good job so far
[21:17] <nookie^> hehe thanks =)
[21:17] <nookie^> we just need to think as end users
[21:17] <nookie^> not what fits me instead of what fits for noobs, geeks all people
[21:17] <amichair> nookie^: amen to that :-)
[21:18] <nookie^> okej let's continue =)
[21:18] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HelpingKubuntu
[21:18] <yuriy> add such things as talking points to the kubuntu default settings uds session
[21:18] <nookie^> can we look at the panel now and how it's organized
[21:18] <nookie^> and how it could be improved
[21:18] <JontheEchidna> So, having two lines in the clock applet right now makes the clock too wide. Any opinions on whether dropping the second line would be worth the missing information?
[21:18] <nookie^> what we can add and remove and place om some other places
[21:19] <apachelogger> yuriy: how is that uds stuff?
[21:19]  * apachelogger always thought uds was about innovation and new stuff and all
[21:19] <nookie^> JontheEchidna: i will also come to the clock
[21:19] <apachelogger> otherwise I find it rather doubtful to not have every single contributor there
[21:19] <JontheEchidna> ok :)
[21:19] <nookie^> i will reorganize now the panel how i would like o see it
[21:19] <nookie^> and then you can compare it to the current screene you look at
[21:19] <nookie^> just give me a minute
[21:19] <JontheEchidna> nookie^: I did a similar proposal for intrepid, let me see if I can find the wiki page
[21:20] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: btw, any feedback on the gettinginvolved/development page?
[21:20] <JontheEchidna> nookie^: you may want to do something similar for your proposal in the end
[21:20] <yuriy> apachelogger: if every contributor could come, noone is stopping them. i think there was always a session to discuss default settings changes for the next release
[21:21] <nookie^> JontheEchidna: sure
[21:21]  * nookie^ managed to crash plasma when moving the widgets around =(
[21:21] <yuriy> JontheEchidna: fwiw adding teh date to the clock is one of the first things i do if it's not there
[21:21] <JontheEchidna> nookie^: :(
[21:21] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: when I looked at it last I thought it was pretty good. I'll probably do a more in-depth reading in a bit
[21:22] <JontheEchidna> aha! https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuIntrepidDesktopDefaults
[21:22] <apachelogger> yuriy: well, of course, not that it would be anything but a waste of time, but sure there must be some session of that kind
[21:22] <apachelogger> we talked about that in my research workshop today ... limitation of scope in projects essentially causes waste of resources of any kind
[21:23] <apachelogger> and UDS is the ultimate limitation of scope ... for IRC there is at least backlog and irclogs.ubuntu.com
[21:24] <nookie^> okej guys
[21:24] <nookie^> and girls if there are any
[21:24] <nookie^> here is how i would like to have it default instead to save space
[21:24] <nookie^> http://imagebin.ca/view/kdNa2R51.html
[21:24] <nookie^> now let me explain
[21:25] <nookie^> 1) i have removed klipper from system tray. How often is that used by normal user? Everybody does ctrl+c ctrl+v
[21:26] <nookie^> that icon is just to HUGE to have in systemtray and it's taking place
[21:26]  * amichair removes klipper from every new installation
[21:26] <nookie^> =)
[21:26]  * nookie^ too
[21:26] <JontheEchidna> you will remove my klipper over my cold dead body :D
[21:26] <JontheEchidna> <3 klipper
[21:26] <nookie^> hehe
[21:27] <JontheEchidna> without a clipboard there are bugs
[21:27] <JontheEchidna> like if you close a text source before pasting, the text will be gone
[21:27] <JontheEchidna> and you cannot paste it
[21:27] <apachelogger> Mamarok, claydoh: pling
[21:27] <amichair> JontheEchidna: but do we need to see the icon for it to work?
[21:27] <nookie^> JontheEchidna: but you are expirienced user
[21:27] <nookie^> think of my grandma
[21:27] <nookie^> who should use linux
[21:28] <nookie^> she would just see icon and numbers =))
[21:28] <yuriy> you can have it in the hidden section of the tray by default maybe
[21:28] <JontheEchidna> yes, I was about to suggest having it in the hidden part
[21:28] <nookie^> +1
[21:28] <amichair> why should standard clipboard functionality be coupled to a gui element?
[21:28]  * apachelogger notes that the hidden icon still uses space though
[21:29] <nookie^> exactly
[21:29] <yuriy> i have about 10 icons in the tray and only two ever actually showing: kxkb and pidgin
[21:29] <JontheEchidna> amichair: because xorg sucks :(
[21:29] <nookie^> yeah it does
[21:29] <Tm_T> amichair: standard functionality doesn't save history
[21:29]  * nookie^ votes for removing it by default
[21:29] <nookie^> hehe
[21:29] <amichair> Tm_T: true, but very few ppl use history. most don't know it exists...
[21:30] <nookie^> exactly
[21:30] <nookie^> not many people are using it
[21:30] <nookie^> i think it's just taking place in systemtray
[21:30] <JontheEchidna> I doubt that it'll be removed. Being hidden is the best bet
[21:30] <Tm_T> nookie^: which could be hidden by default
[21:31] <nookie^> im fine with that =)
[21:31] <nookie^> let's move on
[21:31] <amichair> I agree with what nookie^ said before - there are a bunch of gui decisions that seem to be made by and for devs, not users
[21:31] <Tm_T> though, awareness of it should be spread more
[21:31] <nookie^> amichair: i really agree with you there
[21:31] <amichair> nookie^: nono, I agreed with u first!
[21:31] <apachelogger> amichair: there is no decision taken at all
[21:32] <Tm_T> apachelogger: not in Kubuntu, you mean?
[21:32] <amichair> apachelogger: if it ships, it is decided...
[21:32] <apachelogger> amichair: that thing is there because of limitations in the graphics stack
[21:32] <apachelogger> Tm_T: not at all
[21:32] <Tm_T> apachelogger: uh, I see
[21:32] <apachelogger> without klipper copynpaste works in like 30% of the cases
[21:32] <nookie^> ohh LOL
[21:32] <JontheEchidna> even non-geek users use copy/paste
[21:32] <apachelogger> there are a bazillion bug reports in kde and all them distributions about that kind of crap
[21:33] <apachelogger> openoffice being all fancy and implementing their own technology
[21:33] <Tm_T> ah, that
[21:33] <nookie^> shall i continue?
[21:33] <apachelogger> gnome and kde reimplemnting what X does because X does it in a crappy way
[21:33] <apachelogger> etc. etc.
[21:33] <apachelogger> klipper is essential, so we can just make its presence less sucky
[21:34] <Tm_T> apachelogger: totally forgot this clipboard jungle, I blame my age
[21:34] <nookie^> apachelogger: then we shoud hide it per default
[21:34] <amichair> can we make it 1x1 pixel, transparent?
[21:34] <apachelogger> nookie^: that can be arranged but doesnt make sense if we dont have a second to hide
[21:34] <apachelogger> the hidden arrow still uses as much space as an entry
[21:34] <apachelogger> and is as meaningless to the average user as the klippboardy icon
[21:34] <JontheEchidna> we could start krandrtray by default so that screen resolution as set in KDE applies on startup
[21:35] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: mind the startup time
[21:35] <nookie^> i hope something will be decided there about it =)
[21:35] <nookie^> let's go on =)
[21:36] <nookie^> i've noticed that the clock takes alot of space in panel when date is there
[21:36] <apachelogger> claydoh, Mamarok: pretty pretty please fill https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/GettingInvolved/Support with information
[21:36]  * JontheEchidna noticed too
[21:36] <nookie^> remove the date..
[21:36] <apachelogger> I am all written out from implementing recursion the manual way
[21:36] <nookie^> and change the color
[21:36] <nookie^> black and gray doesnt fit well
[21:36] <nookie^> ther should be contrast
[21:36] <JontheEchidna> white would be awful for when destop effects are on
[21:37] <nookie^> hmm
[21:37] <amichair> I like the color, but miss the date. I'm forgetful :-)
[21:37] <nookie^> haven't tried them on
[21:37] <JontheEchidna> poor contrast is better than invisible, in my opinion
[21:37] <apachelogger> lol
[21:37] <nookie^> click on clock to retrive the date
[21:37] <Tm_T> JontheEchidna: #FEFEFE
[21:38] <nookie^> we need to have in mind is to have as MUCH space left for task manager
[21:38] <amichair> it's actually one of the things I first enjoyed when moving from windows... u can see the date!
[21:38]  * apachelogger finds it funny that a docs dude implemented the GettingInvolved page and yet https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/GettingInvolved/Documentation goes to void :D
[21:38] <nookie^> clock widget is wasting space in panel when date enabled
[21:39] <amichair> nookie^: in the 'before' image, there's lots of blank space around it - how much space does the date actually add?
[21:39]  * nookie^ votes to remove the date to save the space in the panel
[21:40] <nookie^> it add ALOT of space
[21:40] <nookie^> between systemtray and clock it adds all that space
[21:40] <amichair> nookie^: from comparing the images, it looks like it can fit with just a few pixels more (or, in ddmmyy format, maybe not at all)
[21:40] <nookie^> and it adds space both to the left and to the right
[21:41] <amichair> nookie^: maybe the extra space is just a bug?
[21:41] <nookie^> amichair: it's might be that
[21:41] <nookie^> it*
[21:41] <apachelogger> amichair: mind localization
[21:41] <JontheEchidna> localized dates could be quite long
[21:41] <apachelogger> in german the default date format for the clock is like Tue, 5 Nov
[21:41] <nookie^> yeah
[21:42] <apachelogger> which adds a lotta pixels
[21:42] <nookie^> i mean not other operating system has date per default
[21:42] <nookie^> they all want to save space in the panel
[21:42] <apachelogger> ubuntu does, doesn't it? :P
[21:42] <apachelogger> then again they can waste space as much as they want
[21:42] <amichair> apachelogger: do macs?
[21:43] <apachelogger> I wouldn't know
[21:43] <apachelogger> neither do I care what others do
[21:43] <apachelogger> if we would all stick to what is established the word innovation were unkown to the wider public :P
[21:43] <nookie^> yeah we need to make it what looks good here
[21:43] <jrdnyquist> one thing that I miss about gnome is the simple little performance dock thing that you can track processor, disk io, memory, etc in real time. I can't find anything quite like it for KDE, "system load viewer" is kinda close but doesn't do disk io
[21:43] <Riddell> I find it very useful
[21:43] <Riddell> (the date)
[21:43] <nookie^> Riddell: what?
[21:43] <nookie^> ahh
[21:43] <amichair> apachelogger: true, but too many times ppl make radically bad choices in the name of innovation :-)
[21:44] <apachelogger> jrdnyquist: bubble monitor
[21:44] <jrdnyquist> yeah don't like it much
[21:44] <nookie^> Riddell: but currently it's taking TOOO much space in the panel
[21:44] <amichair> how about a smaller date? would that still be helpful?
[21:44] <apachelogger> jrdnyquist: so what is the point of your statement?
[21:44] <nookie^> it just doesnt look organized in the panel currently
[21:44] <Riddell> time on top of date might be better
[21:44] <Riddell> but I don't think it's a problem currently
[21:45] <jrdnyquist> apachelogger, I just think something similar would be cool in KDE is all
[21:45] <JontheEchidna> looking at the default desktop, it is wasting quite a bit of space: http://imagebin.ca/view/Fd8lH1ZP.html
[21:45] <nookie^> JontheEchidna: =))
[21:46] <apachelogger> hm
[21:46] <nookie^> i know =)
[21:46] <apachelogger> jrdnyquist: http://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/First_program have fun :P
[21:46] <nookie^> the default panel organisation is not organized =)
[21:46] <nookie^> just a buntch of icons here and there
[21:46] <nookie^> =)
[21:46] <apachelogger> folderview should go :P
[21:47]  * JontheEchidna was still talking about the clock, not the desktop in general
[21:47] <nookie^> yeah
[21:47] <nookie^> we are on the clock
[21:47] <nookie^> so what do u think JontheEchidna?
[21:47] <JontheEchidna> ok, just making sure I'm on the same page as everyone else
[21:47] <nookie^> don't u agree it's taking too much space
[21:48] <JontheEchidna> I believe I've expressed that a few minutes ago, yes
[21:48] <JontheEchidna> though the decision isn't up to me personally
[21:48] <nookie^> great =)
[21:48] <Tm_T> nookie^: JontheEchidna: I'm pretty sure clock taking that much space is bug
[21:48] <apachelogger> yeah
[21:48] <nookie^> Tm_T: might be that
[21:48] <apachelogger> that is too much
[21:48] <JontheEchidna> yeah, one would think. but while the bug exists we shouldn't expose the buggy behavior by default
[21:48] <Tm_T> nookie^: no, it is, not just might
[21:48] <apachelogger> might be caused because of initial plasma rendering
[21:48] <Tm_T> apachelogger: indeed
[21:49] <Tm_T> JontheEchidna: does switching date off and on make any difference?
[21:49] <nookie^> Tm_T: yes it does
[21:49] <JontheEchidna> makes it look like this: http://imagebin.ca/view/kdNa2R51.html
[21:49] <nookie^> it removes that wasty space
[21:49] <Tm_T> aye, initialisation bug (:
[21:50] <apachelogger> there are quite a few of those in plasma
[21:50] <apachelogger> esp when started from the CD
[21:50] <nookie^> well
[21:51] <nookie^> im just bringing things up, i know that desicions can not be taken now =)
[21:51] <Tm_T> nookie^: correct solution here is to report bug (:
[21:51] <nookie^> but just keep them in mind or if someone can present them somewhere where desicions are beeing taken
[21:51] <nookie^> Tm_T: true =)
[21:52] <Riddell> it's not a bug, it's a matter for debate and reasoning
[21:52] <JontheEchidna> how is 20 px of padding when the date is enabled not a bug? just saying
[21:52] <Tm_T> Riddell: oh, clock applet taking huge space initially?
[21:52] <Riddell> I don't see the 20 px of padding
[21:52] <Riddell> indeed that could be a bug
[21:53] <nookie^> are u looking on this screene http://imagebin.ca/view/Fd8lH1ZP.html
[21:53] <apachelogger> nookie^: if you are done bringing up things... it would be very nice if you could add some fancy words to https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/GettingInvolved/Design so that people get a starting point for design/artwork and stuff
[21:53] <nookie^> apachelogger: i will write a document =)
[21:53] <amichair> +1 for leaving date, reporting bug, eliminating blank space
[21:53] <apachelogger> thx
[21:53] <Tm_T> Riddell: the question if having date visible at all is another matter indeed (:)
[21:53] <apachelogger> ah
[21:53] <apachelogger> darn
[21:53]  * apachelogger forgot to order a book -.-
[21:53] <nookie^> okej let me move on
[21:54] <nookie^> i have moved device notifier and show desktop to the left
[21:54] <nookie^> reason for that since they are standalone icons and very often used as is Kmenu
[21:54] <JontheEchidna> we will be able to add the device notifier to the sytemtray in 4.4 by the way
[21:54] <Tm_T> nookie^: next to kickoff?
[21:54] <nookie^> JontheEchidna: that GREAT news =)
[21:55] <nookie^> well not next to it
[21:55] <nookie^> but on same side
[21:55] <nookie^> i have organized the panel in 2 sides
[21:55] <nookie^> in this way it get's more structured
[21:56] <JontheEchidna> putting the device notifier in the systray would also make sense since the average user would only see it while it was notifying
[21:57] <nookie^> as you can see on those 2 different screenes it's more easier to know what to do
[21:57] <nookie^> in my opinion atleast
[21:57] <nookie^> on the second one
[21:57] <JontheEchidna> it would also be possible to put the Message Indicator in the tray by default
[21:57] <nookie^> what does message indicator do?
[21:57] <ScottK> NCommander: When are you back with your DD key?  ryanakca is in desperate need of some sponsoring.
[21:57] <yuriy> don't know what the big deal is with the date, on mine it takes up LESS space than the time does
[21:58] <amichair> I feel the device notifier is out of place near all the 'action' buttons
[21:58] <JontheEchidna> by default, date causes the bug here: http://imagebin.ca/view/Fd8lH1ZP.html
[21:59] <nookie^> is anyone agree on that second screen is more organized or is it just me?
[21:59] <apachelogger> nookie^: message indicator does waste space
[21:59] <JontheEchidna> nookie^: some gnome apps need it to work. Optionally some KDE apps can use it (such as quassel, kopete, kmail, kontact)
[21:59] <apachelogger> that is the ratinale for the better part :P
[21:59] <nookie^> oki doki
[21:59] <apachelogger> oh right, the rationale was supporting broken implementation
[21:59] <nookie^> but can it be implemented inside the system tray?
[22:00] <JontheEchidna> the plasmoid could be placed in the systemtray in KDE 4.4
[22:00] <nookie^> SWEET!
[22:00] <nookie^> okej
[22:00]  * apachelogger is wondering whether to blog about them boring timelord details
[22:00] <nookie^> another thing now
[22:01] <Mamarok> apachelogger: I will have a look tomorrow, got an empty head tonight (or rather too full a head)
[22:01] <amichair> I like the idea of user folders on the desktop. haven't seen that around... seems useful!
[22:02] <JontheEchidna> tbh I'd rather get rid of folderview altogether, especially since we are no longer putting anything in it by default
[22:02] <nookie^> JontheEchidna: i did noticed that it was empty but i thought it was a bug
[22:02] <JontheEchidna> nope, intentional
[22:02] <nookie^> i vote aswell to get rid of folderview
[22:02] <nookie^> and show normal icons by default
[22:03] <JontheEchidna> we're also trying to get away from the "desktop is an icon dumping ground" thing, so I doubt we'll be seeing icons on the desktop
[22:03] <JontheEchidna> KDE is trying to do this too
[22:03] <nookie^> what is that?
[22:03] <JontheEchidna> not having the desktop be a place for icons, which is the point behind folderview
[22:04] <nookie^> i think this behavior will be very hard to change
[22:04] <nookie^> since kde is only desktop out there which is trying to acheve this as far as i know
[22:05] <JontheEchidna> it does make for a much cleaner desktop :)
[22:05] <nookie^> indeed
[22:05] <dtchen> JontheEchidna: pong
[22:05] <JontheEchidna> and since we have no icons by default, it shouldn't be too hard to just remove the folderview now
[22:05] <nookie^> hmm
[22:05] <JontheEchidna> dtchen: hi, I think I have a sound bug and was wondering where it should go.
[22:05] <nookie^> why not load anything there by default
[22:05] <nookie^> like homefolder?
[22:05] <Tm_T> noooo
[22:05] <JontheEchidna> dtchen: well, not me personally
[22:05] <dtchen> JontheEchidna: #?
[22:05] <amichair> what fills in the gap for why ppl do clutter the desktop? 1-click access to their most used apps/docs?
[22:06] <JontheEchidna> bug 469575
[22:06] <nookie^> i have one more
[22:06] <nookie^> pager? is it really necessery?
[22:06] <Tm_T> nookie^: is
[22:06] <nookie^> why?
[22:06] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: I think we should get started on the support policy :P
[22:07]  * apachelogger wants to get rid of them darn policy work
[22:07] <nookie^> for normal user?
[22:07] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: did you see my lines about that from last night?
[22:07] <apachelogger> no
[22:07] <nookie^> he will just see something switch back and forward
[22:07] <Tm_T> nookie^: we cannot hide functionality from new users, or they never realise there is one
[22:07] <dtchen> JontheEchidna: done
[22:07] <nookie^> i agree on that one
[22:08] <JontheEchidna> the pager doesn't take too much room anyways
[22:08] <nookie^> but.. maybe we should present what every user knows per default
[22:08] <nookie^> then they can notice that they have extra functionality
[22:08] <nookie^> why overload them by that
[22:08] <JontheEchidna> on computers such as netbook where space is an issue it's off by default with plasma-netbook
[22:08] <Tm_T> nookie^: no, how do they know there is such thing like virtual desktops if that isn't visible for them
[22:09] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: your suggestions sounds sensible
[22:09] <Tm_T> nookie^: we could hide whole KDE if we should show only what "everybody knows" (;)
[22:09] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: for support?
[22:09] <apachelogger> aye
[22:09] <nookie^> Tm_T: neeeh
[22:09] <nookie^> in one way i agree with you really
[22:09] <nookie^> alot
[22:09] <Tm_T> nookie^: but really, there's nothing to gain in hiding pager
[22:10] <nookie^> well its not taking place
[22:10] <nookie^> i can agree on that
[22:10] <JontheEchidna> when I first started using linux, I just ignored the pager until I found out what it did
[22:10] <nookie^> im just thinking of clean panel
[22:10] <Tm_T> nookie^: we have plenty of space for pager (:
[22:10] <nookie^> Tm_T: true
[22:10] <Tm_T> nookie^: I would understand if there would be need for space
[22:11] <nookie^> agree
[22:11] <JontheEchidna> dtchen: thanks
[22:11] <nookie^> questions is how often is it used?
[22:12] <nookie^> is it neccessery there by default
[22:12] <nookie^> i think its just sometimes confusing to have different apps on different pages
[22:12] <nookie^> but it's just suggestion =)
[22:12] <Tm_T> nookie^: how can we know how many uses it? (:
[22:13] <nookie^> well: i can do something
[22:13] <Tm_T> hide it from everyone with some package upgrade and wait #kubuntu to grow rage? (;)
[22:13] <nookie^> i work in huge it company and i can take my kubuntu desktop and ask users to try it "normal users" and if they would use it in the future hehe =)
[22:14] <nookie^> i think more expirienced users use it... but not many normal users
[22:14] <Tm_T> define normal
[22:15] <Tm_T> and would the ones who uses it used it if it weren't there already?
[22:15] <yuriy> removing folderview by default sounds like a very bad idea
[22:16] <nookie^> normal users. some users who have maybe some expirience of linux "kde". you have to think aswell that many "windows" users are trying linux nowdays
[22:16] <yuriy> I think it should be changed to display the home folder though
[22:16] <nookie^> and when they try it and something is switching back and forward on pages they will just ask them selves what happened
[22:17] <nookie^> i think we should present simple desktop per default where it can be modified to do more powerful stuff when configured
[22:17] <Tm_T> nookie^: not too simple, though
[22:17] <JontheEchidna> I just don't see the pager as being overly complex
[22:17] <JontheEchidna> a bigger issue would be scrollwheel on the desktop making the desktop switch by default
[22:17] <Tm_T> JontheEchidna: me neither, it really doesn't hurt in any way
[22:18] <Tm_T> JontheEchidna: agreed on that too (:
[22:18] <JontheEchidna> which I believe will be configurable in 4.4
[22:18] <amichair> JontheEchidna: exactly. a lot of ppl in #kubuntu were asking how to disable the scrollwheel... I hate it too.
[22:18] <Riddell> qt and phonon working well, uploading now
[22:18] <JontheEchidna> \o/
[22:19] <nookie^> well
[22:19] <nookie^>  i have now explained alot of stuff
[22:19] <nookie^> how and why
[22:19] <nookie^> i really hope that someone will atleast discuss some of the things further
[22:20] <nookie^> because i really think we could improve alot of things to make it more easier for endusers and make kubuntu to a better distro
[22:20] <JontheEchidna> I'm sure they will. Thanks for the input
[22:20] <nookie^> U're welcome
[22:20] <nookie^> and yeah 1 more thing
[22:20] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: so, do we want to go as far as to make a spec for support policy?
[22:20] <nookie^> i would have doubleclick enabled by default instead of singleclick
[22:21] <amichair> say guys, is there some way we could gather statistics on desktop usage? the biggest problem is that we (and others) each 'thinks' what other ppl might or might not want... if we had some data, we could make wiser choices
[22:21] <JontheEchidna> nookie^: heh, that's a whole other flamewar waiting to happen :D
[22:21] <nookie^> hehehehe i've see
[22:22] <nookie^> well that what i found just by installing kubuntu today but i will search thru the distro nowdays and make some sort of document on what more could be improved =)
[22:23] <Riddell> weird e-mail of the day ... "do u know how to get finish ksokoban microban  EASY step 133 can get
[22:23] <Riddell> throw it"
[22:24] <JontheEchidna> was the sender "Knowingest J. Drawbridges"?
[22:24] <Riddell> no, rdholmes
[22:24]  * JontheEchidna was just coming up with equally incomprehensible names :P
[22:26] <amichair> does anyone have a couple minutes to spare to help me figure out where the karmic software-properties code came from?
[22:27] <amichair> lol... *now* everyone's quiet :))
[22:27] <Riddell> amichair: the karmic source doesn't match the trunk bzr checkout I take it?
[22:27] <amichair> apparently not
[22:28] <amichair> I fixed a bug there, only to find out it's outdated code
[22:28] <Riddell> amichair: have you checked the other branches at code.launchpad.net/software-properties ?
[22:29] <amichair> nope
[22:30] <amichair> I'll check now. doesn't the shipped code come from the main branch? (what's trunk called here?)
[22:32] <Riddell> it should
[22:32] <Riddell> but sometimes things get mixed up
[22:32] <Riddell> maybe it wasn't committed to bzr at all
[22:32] <Riddell> in which case you can commit it to a branch and I can merge it and you'll have made your first fix :)
[22:35] <amichair> commit what?
[22:39] <Riddell> the current version from karmic
[22:39] <amichair> but I can't find it :(
[22:40] <amichair> JontheEchidna seemed to have a newer copy, maybe he knows where it came from?
[22:40] <JontheEchidna> I was looking at the installed file in karmic
[22:41] <JontheEchidna> unless I had an old version installed from bzr...
[22:42] <amichair> JontheEchidna: maybe u have a future version not yet in bzr?
[22:43] <JontheEchidna> I don't think so, because I believe apachelogger made the fix for the gpg dialog and I got it from bzr
[22:43] <JontheEchidna> yep, what's in the archive differs from bzr
[22:43] <JontheEchidna> *sigh*
[22:44] <JontheEchidna> bbl, dinner
[22:44] <amichair> is this standard here, or is it a dose of beginners luck? :-P
[22:49] <Riddell> bad lucjk I thinkbad luck I tjhinkbad luck I think
[22:49] <amichair> wow
[22:49] <amichair> that is bad luck
[22:49] <Riddell> hmm, how did that happen
[22:49] <amichair> bad luck comes in triples
[22:52] <Sime> kpackagekit updater crash (again), which is more than what it normal does.. ;-)
[23:27] <seele> ScottK: were you the one who mentioned how the ayatana notification display is out of sync with the ping?
[23:37] <neversfelde> koffice-data-kde4 tries to overwrite an icon which is also in krita-kde4 1:2.0.2-2ubuntu3. So I make koffice-data-kde4 replace krita-kde4 (< 1:2.0.2-2ubuntu3). Isn't that right?
[23:38] <Riddell> neversfelde: << new version
[23:39] <neversfelde> Riddell: what is the difference to < ?
[23:39] <Riddell> strictly less than
[23:39] <Riddell> it's like less than, but better
[23:42] <neversfelde> Riddell: thank you
[23:43] <Riddell> phew, I got away with a really poor explanation :)
[23:43] <neversfelde> hehe
[23:44] <neversfelde> I hope it helps :)
[23:49] <JontheEchidna> hrm, this source format 3.0 stuff is.. intruiging
[23:50]  * claydoh need to get irc piped directly into hi brain in order to keep up wit it all 
[23:51] <JontheEchidna> dh7 is also sweet
[23:51] <Riddell> source format 3.0 seems quite sensible
[23:52] <JontheEchidna> all that is needed for a simple kde app for debian/rules: http://paste.ubuntu.com/311028/
[23:52] <Riddell> what does the --with kde do?
[23:52] <JontheEchidna> tell it to use the kde bits from pkg-kde-tools I think
[23:53] <JontheEchidna> but apparently including kde.mk from pkg-kde-tools and doing dh $@ is depreciated
[23:56] <JontheEchidna> it doesn't seem to do the rosetta stuff though