/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/11/06/#ubuntu-classroom.txt

DieSetteris there anyway to install 9.10 but use the network driver from the 9.04 live cd00:07
Doorman352If you can let me know, Iḿ having issues with my laptop and have to use 9.04 ......00:08
DieSetterthe one that ships with 9.10 restricts my network speeds to 45kps00:08
Doorman352Was it something I said?00:09
IdleOneDoorman352: and DieSetter please join #ubuntu for support.00:22
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rockstar1Hello! Does anybody knows some tutorial to install Ubuntu on Intel-based Macbook?00:40
IdleOne!install00:40
ubot2Ubuntu can be installed in lots of ways. Please see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation for documentation. Problems during install? See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommonProblemsInstall and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseNotes/UbiquityKnownIssues - Don't want to use a CD? Try http://tinyurl.com/3exghs - See also !automate00:40
ubottuUbuntu can be installed in lots of ways. Please see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation for documentation. Problems during install? See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommonProblemsInstall and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseNotes/UbiquityKnownIssues - Don't want to use a CD? Try http://tinyurl.com/3exghs - See also !automate00:40
IdleOnerockstar: please join #ubuntu for further support00:41
rockstarIdleOne, I think you're talking to the wrong one of us.  :)00:50
IdleOnelol rockstar sorry00:51
rockstar:)00:51
IdleOnebut  now you know :P00:51
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ccm1/305:09
ccmups05:09
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amonchhello everyone06:55
jmarsdenamonch: This is #ubuntu-classroom.  There is no class right now.  If you are seeking help about Ubuntu, try in #ubuntu06:56
amonchbeen looking for someone who can teach me to set-up a server in a classroom laboratory06:56
rootsHello07:19
rootsIm I welcome to this class?07:19
rootsIm a newbie to linux. May you assist me with all the necessary documentation to be able to setup a mailserver in ubuntu07:20
rootsexit07:21
jmarsdenroots: This is #ubuntu-classroom.  There is no class right now.  If you are seeking help about Ubuntu, try in #ubuntu or for servers try #ubuntu-server07:22
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jj3502No screensaver when running on battery10:59
jj3502?10:59
Forlonjj3502: try in #ubuntu, this is no supportchannel here :-)11:01
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AnimagladiusHuhu.13:11
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Sertsexubuntu is first when it starts right?14:14
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charlie-tcayes14:14
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SertseThanks.I see you're helping presenting it :) Gotta be a good day for me, xubuntu, +1 and ofc..sabfl.14:15
charlie-tcaGotta be!14:15
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yadudocjvc007 ?14:30
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=== jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session: Xubuntu - Lot's of Kittens and Mice - knome and charlie-tca || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
jcastroGooooood morning everyone14:59
jcastrowe'll start in one minute14:59
jcastrowith Xubuntu - Lot's kittens and mice14:59
jcastrocharlie-tca, you may begin whenever you're ready!14:59
charlie-tcaThanks,15:00
charlie-tcajcastro15:00
charlie-tcaI'm Charlie Kravetz, known as charlie-tca on irc and the mailing lists. I am Xubuntu Quality Assurance Lead.15:00
charlie-tcaWe are going to talk a bit about my favorite flavor this morning, Xubuntu.15:01
charlie-tcaWe will take your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, and15:01
charlie-tcawill have a few minutes at the end to answer questions you hold on to. Feel free to ask questions at any time,15:02
charlie-tcabut please start them with QUESTION: so they easy to spot. For example,15:02
charlie-tcaQUESTION: What is Xubuntu?15:02
charlie-tcaThe answer would then be15:03
charlie-tcaXubuntu is Ubuntu with the Xfce desktop. Xfce emphasizes conservation of system resources, which makes Xubuntu an excellent choice for any system, new or old.15:03
charlie-tcaNotice, that does not say "old only"15:04
charlie-tcaI do run an Athlon amd64 to use daily15:04
charlie-tcaAs a ubuntu derivative, Xubuntu maintains the same high standards and quality that Ubuntu has. We still have bugs to track down and resolve, and we do help with the bugs in Ubuntu also. Testing is a combined effort, since the releases are on the same schedule.15:04
charlie-tcaXubuntu is an ideal candidate for older hardware or low-end machines, thin-client networks, or those who would like to get more performance out of their hardware.15:05
charlie-tca<mhall119|work> QUESTION: With LXDE coming in as the new low-resource desktop, is XFCE going to shift to become more of a full-power desktop like Gnome and KDE, or will it try and lower it's resource requirements to compete with LXDE?15:05
charlie-tcaI don't see a need to shift at this time. Of course, Xubuntu does not drive Xfce, either. We incorporate it, just as Ubuntu uses Gnome.15:06
charlie-tcaAs for lowering the resource requirements, there are many other distributions out there with lower requirements already.15:07
charlie-tcaAs a ubuntu derivative, Xubuntu maintains the same high standards and quality that Ubuntu has. We still have bugs to track down and resolve, and we do help with the bugs in Ubuntu also. Testing is a combined effort, since the releases are on the same schedule.15:08
charlie-tcaAlso, Xubuntu is the Xfce-based distribution with a native 64-bit architecture. We produce both a 32-bit and 64-bit versions, and ports for the Mac PowerPC and Sony PlayStation 3.15:09
charlie-tca<mhall119|work> QUESTION: Are the PPC ports fully supported?15:10
charlie-tcaGreat question!15:10
charlie-tcaUnfortunately, we can not fully support the ports. There are, however, two freenode channels where our developers with macs hang out15:11
charlie-tcaBoth #ubuntu-powerpc and #ubuntu-ps3 are available15:12
charlie-tca<Jesi> Question: GNOME and KDE are already fast, especially when compare some other OS's (not going to say which, we all know), is there really any need XFCE? how much of a performance boost is one likely to get?15:12
charlie-tcaAgain, let's not confuse desktop environments with distributions. I agree, Ubuntu and Kubuntu are fast. Can I run them on a PII with a 400MHz CPU?15:14
charlie-tcaIt has 256MB ram. I haven't been able to. I can run Xubuntu on it, though15:14
charlie-tca<Sertse> QUESTION: How does Xubuntu respond to claims that it is rather fat for an xfce distro, and thus misrepresents xfce? Many people draw conclusions on xfce from xubuntu. Xfce itself is rather light.15:16
charlie-tcaThanks for asking that. We agree with it.15:16
charlie-tcaAs a dirivative of Ubuntu, we rely on a number of applications from Ubuntu. This does cause some bloating for Xubuntu. We attempt to keep as many lightweight15:17
charlie-tcaapplications as possible, though. In 9.10, installed from the desktop cd, you pull in OpenOffice.org. You can remove it, and in Lucid, it will not pull it in.15:18
charlie-tcaThe bloat is a price we pay for staying a part of Ubuntu15:18
charlie-tca<openweek2> QUESTION: The Acer Aspire One and early Moblin demo's were based on XFCE, but recently UNR/Gnome, plasma-netbook/KDE and Clutter/Moblin have taken the limelight. Are there plans for an XFCE/Xubuntu netbook variant?15:19
charlie-tcaI don't have an answer to this at this time.15:20
charlie-tcaI have a question about why the gnome desktop ran after Xubuntu was installed along side of Ubuntu.15:22
charlie-tcaYou can install Ubuntu or Kubuntu or both, then install Xubuntu. This allows you to switch between the desktops and applications as you wish.15:23
charlie-tcaSometimes, when you do this, as you log in, you must tell gdm what session you want to run. At the bottom of the login screen, there is a selector for xfce, gnome, kde15:24
charlie-tcaThis normally is invisible until you tell gdm who is logging in.15:24
charlie-tcaThere is also a setting to tell the system if you want gnome, kde, or xfce to be the default environment15:25
charlie-tca<its_me> QUESTION: I am a new to Gnu/Linux, if Kernel, File system and Desktop is being developed by an independent communities. What exactly is ubuntu, Kubuntu or Xubuntu community is doing? Are they just combining all these components and giving it a new name?15:25
charlie-tcaGreat question from a new Gnu/Linux user! In Windows, everything came from one place, basically, Microsoft.15:27
charlie-tcaIn Linux, a desktop environment is built of many small applications. A distribution is built of many more applications, which may or may not include the desktop environment.15:28
charlie-tcaSo, yes, Ubuntu, Kubuntu, and Xubuntu are combining many applications to make something easy to use.15:29
charlie-tcawithout them, it could take you two or three or four weeks of running programs without a graphic environment to get what we give you.15:29
charlie-tca<mhall119|work> QUESTION: Xubuntu seems to be trying to look the same as the default Gnome setup in Ubuntu, why not do your own style like Kubuntu does?15:30
charlie-tcaGlad you asked!15:30
charlie-tcaI could not tell you what the desktop in Gnome looks like in Ubuntu 9.1015:31
charlie-tcaI have not actually seen it. If it does look like Xubuntu, that was an accident on our part.15:31
charlie-tca<Sertse> QUESTION: Does Xubuntu have any contacts with upstream? I remember there used to be an liason at one point.15:32
charlie-tcaYes, we do maintain contacts with upstream. While we no longer have a liason in Xfce, we do talk to developers in Xfce daily, also with developers in Gnumeric, Exaile, and other upstream projects.15:34
charlie-tcaWell, that looks like enough questions for now. Hopefully, I answered all of them. If I missed yours, please ask it again.15:35
charlie-tcaAs a dirivative of Ubuntu, we are not officially sponsored by Canonical as Ubuntu and Kubuntu are. Xubuntu receives no funding from Canonical.15:38
charlie-tcaAll of the developers and team members are volunteers.15:38
charlie-tcaWe report bugs found through launchpad. Brian Murray gave a great session on "Reporting Bugs" on Monday. If you missed that session, there are full logs of all the sessions maintained on the wiki.15:38
charlie-tcaJust go to the schedule, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/ , and click on the session you wish to review. I do much of the bug triage for Xubuntu, and most of our bugs in Xfce are forwarded upstream.15:39
charlie-tcaWe do verify a number of the bugs reported to Xfce from other sources.15:39
charlie-tcaWe work very close with upstream xfce, abiword and gnumeric bug teams to help resolve the bugs found. Once you report a bug, it goes through a process called bug triage.15:40
charlie-tcaYou will find that I often triage the Xfce, Abiword, and Gnumeric bugs for this reason. I am also the bugsquad contact for these bugs.15:40
charlie-tcaWe will work very closely to the Ubuntu bugsquad when triaging, and follow the guidelines set in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage. A very important idea in triaging for Xubuntu is that just because only one person had a failure, that does not make it invalid.15:41
charlie-tcaAt this time, I would like to hit on some of the key points in Xubuntu 9.10, otherwise known as Karmic Koala.15:42
charlie-tcaXubuntu now has Xfce 4.6.1, which included many bug fixes.15:42
charlie-tcaIn work at Xfce is 4.8, which will have the menu editor. It is scheduled for final release April 18, which may be too late for Lucid, but could make the .1 upgrade15:43
charlie-tcaXubuntu 9.10 includes the Exaile 0.3.0.x music player to make enjoying podcasts, streaming radio, audio books, and music library easier than ever before.15:44
charlie-tca<mhall119|work> QUESTION: why was OpenOffice.org included now in 9.10, but going to be removed again in 10.04?15:44
charlie-tcaGood question! OpenOffice.org slipped passed the testers. It is not normally included in Xubuntu, due to the size.15:45
charlie-tcaIt will be removed in future releases because it does not meet Xubuntu's requirements for lightweight applications.15:45
charlie-tca<sebsebseb> QUESTIONS: Why does Xubuntu use  GDM,  rather than it's own Display Manager?  Also isn't really XFCE just a window manager, instead of being a desktop environment such as Gnome or KDE?  As for xubuntu-desktop it's just XFCE with some choosen apps right? If so that's probably why there isn't a XFCEDM, or whatever it would be called, because XDM already exists.15:46
charlie-tcaThanks for asking, sebsebseb15:46
charlie-tcaXubuntu uses GDM because it is included in Ubuntu. We are a small team, and if Ubuntu has an application that works for us, we can have our developers work on other, more important tasks.15:47
charlie-tca<mhall119|work> QUESTION: What's going on with XFCE's settings backend?  Is it going to use the same as Gnome?15:48
charlie-tcaBefore I answer this, let me step back a minute15:50
charlie-tcaI want to touch on the names we use for a minute. Xubuntu uses many applications to maintain lightweight, usable environment.15:51
charlie-tcaWhether that application contains the name KDE, Gnome, Xfce, Lxde, etc, does not really come into the decision making process.15:51
charlie-tcaWe are looking for applications that work the best for Xubuntu. If the name mattered, most applications won't work. If the name doesn't matter, many applications will work.15:52
charlie-tcaGDM is Gnome Display Manager. We use it for a log-in screen. It works for that.15:53
charlie-tcaNow back to mhall119|work question. We aren't using Gnome's backend. We do use the parts that work for us.15:54
charlie-tcaDoes anyone know why was the name "Xubuntu - Lots of Kittens and Mice" given for this session? it does't seems to be related.15:57
charlie-tcaLet's tackle this one, even though it is not actually being asked.15:57
charlie-tcaXfce's logo is a mouse. Xubuntu uses that mouse inside the "human circle of friendship" of Ubuntu. And, what good are mice without kittens?15:58
charlie-tcaThe kittens chase the mice round and round15:59
charlie-tcaI want to thank all of you for being here.15:59
charlie-tcaIf you want to join the *developer* team, there is #xubuntu-devel and there is also the developer mailing list, https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel15:59
=== jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session: How to Run Ubuntu + 1 || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
jcastrothanks a bunch charlie-tca!16:00
charlie-tcaAs part of one of the best, fastest growing distributions available, we welcome anyone who would like to assist in development, testing, and bug triage!16:00
jcastrook we'll give it a minute and then I will start the next session, how to run Ubuntu+1 "aka the development release"16:00
jcastrook16:01
jcastrothanks for coming to my session, let's begin!16:01
jcastroFirst off, I'd like to introduce myself. My name is Jorge Castro and I work on the Ubuntu Community team doing upstream developer relations. I've been using Ubuntu since 4.10 (the Warty Warthog) and Debian for many years before that.16:01
jcastroI've spent a great deal of time running developmental releases and things that generally break your computer, so I thought I would share this information with people, since I've been in the situation many times where I have turned my computer until a pile of molten slag.16:01
jcastroI've written up some parts, we'll get through that - then we'll open up it up for some questions.16:01
jcastroRecently I've noticed more and testers using the Ubuntu developmental release, what lot's of people call "Ubuntu+1". Currently Ubuntu+1 is the lucid "lucid lynx".16:02
jcastroThis is really good16:02
jcastrobecause more testing is always needed16:02
jcastroHowever just because you are testing doesn't mean you want your OS to stab you in the face.16:02
jcastroRunning +1 back in the old days was relatively easy because most of the users were already experienced with The Debian System(tm) and how it worked. However as more and more people started using Ubuntu and the promise of new bling crept around the corner more and more people started using it, and breaking it, so I thought I'd have a session on how to not blow up your computer.16:02
jcastroFirst off16:03
jcastrothere are some guides out there already!16:03
jcastrohttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/UsingDevelopmentReleases16:03
jcastroand more recently http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=128630916:03
jcastrohowever I find that the best method is what you learn by sometimes painful experience!16:04
jcastroNow, there are many ways Ubuntu developers run their development release. Some prefer apt-get, some do aptitude. I will be discussing the way I do it because I've managed to stay out of trouble for three releases in a row! Also, even if you use different tools the concepts I talk about will apply.16:04
jcastro(some use synaptic, etc.)16:04
jcastroSo first off, let's talk about why you WOULDN'T want to run a a dev release like lucid16:05
jcastroa) You need to get work done16:05
jcastroand b) Computer downtime or dataloss isn't an option16:05
jcastroso, for example I know many ubuntu developers stick to a stable release16:05
jcastroand use pbuilder or a VM to test their packages16:05
jcastrosome people have multiple machines16:05
jcastroI personally always keep my laptop on a stable release until beta-ish16:06
jcastrobut on my desktop I let it rip with the brokeness.16:06
jcastroeither way, you should ensure that your data is backed up and safe16:06
jcastroOf course, if you use your computers for work I recommend using VMs or spare hardware16:06
jcastrohowever16:07
jcastroif you're a sysadmin or deploy ubuntu16:07
jcastrosetting aside spare hardware to help us test ubuntu would  be most appreciated!16:07
jcastrofor most people, Virtual Machines will do the trick16:08
jcastrounless you want to test hardware16:08
jcastroso for example, if you have an infamous broadcom wireless card that doesn't work well, you might have problems16:08
jcastrook16:09
jcastroso I am going to go through the steps that I take to run the release16:09
jcastrothe first step is to actually run it. :D16:09
jcastrothis is accomplished by downloading one of the alpha CDs, a daily CD, or upgradiing in place16:10
jcastroIf you download a new CD, you want to use something like a mirror or zsync to save bandwidth16:10
jcastroif you upgrade in place I recommend "update-manager -d"16:11
jcastro(old school fans, replacing "karmic" with "lucid" in your sources.list still works)16:11
jcastrothere are three major things you need to check before you upgrade16:12
jcastro(and that goes for the subsequent daily upgrades)16:12
jcastrohere are the sources I check: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/lucid_probs.html16:12
jcastrothis one is handy16:12
jcastroit tells you what's broken in the archive right now16:12
jcastroso if you see important-looking things in here, you might want to wait16:13
jcastrosince it's the beginning of lucid it's not surprising to see kernel packages and stuff in there16:13
jcastrothe second thing to check is the -changes mailing list16:13
jcastrohttps://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/lucid-changes16:13
jcastrowhich has the upload changelogs16:14
jcastrohere's an example16:14
jcastrohttps://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/lucid-changes/2009-November/000177.html16:14
jcastro(protip, the RSS feeds for these packages are here: http://feeds.ubuntu-nl.org/UbuntuChanges )16:14
jcastroas you run the dev release you'll start to learn how to read changelogs16:14
jcastroand why that's important16:14
jcastrousually if you see a package you'll start to learn how things work16:14
jcastroso for example if you see "New upstream release" in a small gnome game or something, it'll be safe16:15
jcastrobut if it's a bunch of kernel packages and a changelog miles long, that might be worrisome16:15
jcastroafter a while you'll learn about how packages interact with each other16:15
jcastroand then the third thing I check is the dev forum: http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=377here16:16
jcastroBy now if someone has a problem and can't figure it out16:16
jcastroit might be posted here16:16
jcastroWith all three of those sources you should have a good idea how +1 is for the moment16:17
jcastroremember that uploads happen all the time16:17
jcastroso at any given point the archive is in a different state16:17
jcastroI personally upgrade twice a day16:17
jcastroonce in the morning, and in the afternoon16:17
jcastroand before each of those I check all three of those, just to be sure16:17
jcastrook, after that you decide "ok this looks safe enough"16:17
jcastroor "no way, that's crazy"16:18
jcastrothat's when I do the update step: sudo apt-get update16:18
jcastroa quick thing here16:18
jcastroa bunch of people just think they can run +1 and have update manager just fire off daily and they can click a button and be happy16:18
jcastrothis probably will lead to tears16:19
jcastroin fact, if you're not comfortable with apt-get (or aptitude if you use that) and dpkg itself you can easily paint yourself into a corner16:19
jcastroso ensure that you read the man pages and documentation on those tools16:19
jcastrook16:19
jcastroafter the update you want to go ahead and do the upgrade16:19
jcastrowhich is: sudo apt-get upgrade16:20
jcastronow, here is where everyone gets confused16:20
jcastro(if you've been ignoring the whole session this is the important part)16:20
jcastroyou always need to remember in the back of your head that the  archive is always changing in a dev release16:20
jcastroand things are connected in all sorts of ways16:20
jcastroso for example, when calc uploads openoffice.org, it's a TON of packages16:21
jcastroand sometimes it takes a while for things to build16:21
jcastroso for large packages sometimes chunks land right away16:21
jcastrosometimes not16:21
jcastroplus you have to wait for the mirrors to propagate, etc.16:21
jcastroso, in order to protect you16:21
jcastroapt says "well, he's missing some parts, let me hold back these packages so it doesn't break"16:22
jcastrowhen this happens apt tells you "the following packages have been held back:" and then a list of stuff16:22
jcastrowhen this happens to me I let it hold those packages back16:22
jcastroand let the upgrade continue16:22
jcastroif I see a package held back over the course of a few days then I try to seperately apt-get installing them16:23
jcastroso, let's say openoffice.org-awesomeness is held back16:23
jcastrobecause the rest of OOo is building16:23
jcastroin a few days I do "sudo apt-get install openoffice.org-awesomness"16:24
jcastronow I get more detail16:24
jcastrousually if it hasn't worked itself out it's because something significant has changed16:24
jcastrosometimes it looks scary16:25
jcastroit might say "library3 will be REMOVED, library4 will be installed" or something like that16:25
jcastroso this means that someone has updated the libraries16:25
jcastroso this is fine16:25
jcastroand I just let it finish and it does the upgrade16:25
jcastrosometimes a package is going through what we call a transition16:25
jcastroso let's say program A used to use library A, but now wants to use library B.16:26
jcastrothis will cause it to be held back16:26
jcastroso you'll have to go back and work it  out16:26
jcastrohowever, since you've read the changelogs I mentioned above16:26
jcastrousually there should be no surprise16:26
jcastrothe maintainer will put in the log something like "transitioning this to libfoo" or something16:26
jcastrothere will also be announcements for major things on the development list16:27
jcastroparticularly with sensitive things like boot stuff16:27
jcastroand since you also check the forums before you upgrade (right?) you'll see the scattered bodies of people who have not read the changelogs. :D16:27
jcastroone thing I do NOT recommend16:27
jcastrois just do sudo apt-get dist-upgrade16:28
jcastrothis is the cause of many problems16:28
jcastroin fact, you'll see people posting this all over the internet16:28
jcastrothe "problem" with dist-upgrading blindly is that it does what it's designed to do16:28
jcastroit reads the package lists of things that are supposed to be installed16:28
jcastroand it doesn't really account for the archive changing16:28
jcastroso it thinks "well, he said he wanted openoffice.org upgraded, but it's missing openoffice.org-awesome, however, I can't stand the package system being in an unknown state, so let's be safe an remove openoffice.org entirely"16:30
jcastrothis is how people end up removing half their GUI or weird things like that16:30
jcastroso, remember dist-upgrade is for moving from stable release to stable release16:30
jcastroif the archive is being uploaded to and dependencies are changing, this will doom you16:31
jcastroso remember, just do a normal "upgrade"16:31
jcastroand if something is held back, let it sit there a bit16:31
jcastroand it will usually work itself out over the next few hours or days16:31
jcastroany questions on this so far?16:31
jcastroI want to make sure everyone is clear about the dist-upgrade16:31
jcastro(ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat)16:32
jcastrowow, no questions, awesome16:32
jcastrook16:32
jcastroso, after you've done the upgrade, you're not done!16:32
jcastrodepending on what you upgraded you might need to do things16:32
jcastroso for example if you have firefox open and firefox upgrades we tell you to restart firefox (just in case)16:33
jcastroalso, if you get a new kernel you'll need to reboot16:33
jcastroif you get a new GNOME or KDE you'll want to log out and back in16:33
jcastrowhile stable releases run great for days and days16:34
jcastroduring the devel release you'll want to make sure you're running the latest thing and given the program a chance to run16:34
jcastrootherwise your bugs will be worthless16:34
jcastroQuestion: where can we get the Lucid ISO? or do we have to install Karmic and go from there?16:34
jcastrothere are no ISOs at this point, you'll have to upgrade from karmic16:35
jcastrook, some other pointers16:35
jcastroyou can get a feel for what's going on depending on what week it is16:35
jcastrohttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidReleaseSchedule16:35
jcastroso for example16:35
jcastroright now we're syncing with debian16:36
jcastroand UDS hasn't happened yet16:36
jcastroso there will be a bunch of syncs16:36
jcastroalso, if you look at all the freezes on the schedule you can also figure out how safe the archive will be16:36
jcastroso, the week before feature freeze it's likely to be very busy16:37
jcastroand during UDS week it's likely slowed down16:37
jcastroI know some people who wait for a certain point16:37
jcastrothat's up to you16:37
jcastroremember once you are running lucid when you update you're up to date16:37
jcastroso if you get a Beta, and you do your updates16:37
jcastroyou won't need to download and reinstall RC16:38
jcastroQuestion: We are syncing from testing for lucid, I think? How do you feel this would affect development, and those running it?16:38
jcastroI think this will mean Lucid will have less bugs overall16:38
jcastroand be a less bumpy ride16:38
jcastro(but not right now, bunch of syncs happening)16:38
jcastrounless you seriously want the crack, I don't recommend using lucid until at least alpha 116:39
jcastroright now the toolchain and the lower bits are settling16:39
jcastroand we haven't had UDS yet so it's just syncing16:39
jcastrook16:39
jcastrolet's talk about some other common problems16:39
jcastroone you'll see a bunch is when you use a slow mirror16:39
jcastroand apt spits out 404 errors16:40
jcastrousually if you're using an official mirror trying again will round robin to another one and you'll get the packages16:40
jcastroalso, sometimes mirrors sync with others wrong16:40
jcastroso it will rsync the Packages files and it just so happens that you want to upgrade and the mirror hasn't gotten the actual packages yet16:40
jcastrothis happens with large packages like OOO or eclipse or something16:41
jcastroone thing I don't recommend (but people do) is to hammer the official archive mirrors over and over16:41
jcastroalso, if you have a bunch of machines, consider using squid or something to save bandwidth and load on the mirrors16:41
jcastrobecause the archive updates ALOT16:42
jcastrohundreds of megs a day sometimes16:42
jcastroAny more questions?16:43
jcastroOk16:43
jcastroso, remember that the reason to use +1 is to get testing16:43
jcastroso it's important to make sure you report good bugs16:43
jcastroSometimes you don't know if something is a real bug16:43
jcastroor if someone just broke something and is fixing it16:44
jcastrowhen people get lost they post on the lucid forum16:44
jcastrothis is totally /fine/ and encouraged!16:44
jcastroin fact some people flesh out bugs before they report them16:44
jcastro"Is anyone else seeing this or is it just me?" threads can save from a bunch of us filing the same stupid bug in launchpad16:44
jcastrocausing the QA follks to have to go through dupes, etc.16:44
jcastroso getting your ducks in a row before you report a bug can be very efficient.16:45
jcastroQuestion: could you define "UDS" and "toolchain" and possibly tell us what Squid is?16:46
jcastroSure!16:46
jcastroUDS is the ubuntu development summit, where we figure out what Lucid will be like16:46
jcastrosince Lucid will be a long term support release that's kind of obvious16:46
jcastro"toolchain" are the bits that you build a distro on16:46
jcastroso your compilers, guts, system level things16:47
jcastrosquid is a caching proxy, which will cache debs for you16:47
jcastrothere are a bunch of tools that can do that16:47
jcastroif you deploy hundreds of machines you know what that is16:48
jcastroif you don't understand some of the terms I'm talking about then for sure you should be trying this in a virtual machine instead of real hardware16:48
jcastroafter you've broken yourself a bunch of times you'll know when you're ready to run it full time. :D16:49
jcastroQuestion: When does the development of the next release of Ubuntu start? Right after one is released16:50
jcastrousually16:50
jcastroright now we're scheduling sessions for UDS16:50
jcastrohttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-L16:51
jcastroall the information you need is linked from there16:51
jcastrohttp://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-l/ has the schedule16:51
jcastrothere will be icecast streams so you can follow along16:51
jcastroand all the blueprints and documents are all available16:51
jcastroI also plan to post many videos this time around!16:51
jcastroQuestion: what are the development goals for Lucid?16:52
jcastrothat's what we do at UDS, figure those out16:52
jcastrohowever Lucid is LTS so we already know certain things16:52
jcastrolike we'll be more conservative on things16:52
jcastroand we'll concentrate on bug fixes all cycle16:52
jcastrosome people might call that boring16:52
jcastrobut rock solid is never boring. :D16:52
jcastroQuestion: How does one join the development of Ubuntu? Beta testing is, of course, there; but what about main development?16:53
jcastroOh man, that session was yesterday!16:53
jcastrobut don't worry16:53
jcastrohttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekKarmic/IntroDeveloper16:53
jcastrostart here16:53
jcastrothat should have everything you need to get started16:53
jcastro QUESTION: Can I upgrade in place by editing /etc/apt/sources.list changing karmic to lucid?16:53
jcastroYep16:53
jcastrothat's how I used to do it16:53
jcastrolately I get lazy and just do update-manager -d16:54
jcastroalso, this reminds me16:54
jcastroif you have a bunch of PPAs or something in your sources.list you'll want to comment them out before an upgrade16:54
jcastroalso, if you're running a "mongrel" system with a bunch of PPAs, self made debs16:54
jcastroand general crack16:54
jcastroconsider a clean install16:54
jcastroinstead of reporting bugs with all sorts of brokeness16:55
jcastrook that's all I have time for16:55
jcastroI hope you guys are ready for Mark Shuttleworth!16:55
jcastroOk I've been informed that mark is having power supply problems16:58
jcastrobut it's getting sorted, please bear with us16:58
=== jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session: Ask Mark - Mark Shuttleworth || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
jcastroWhile mark sorts out his PC16:59
jcastroremember to put your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat17:00
jcastroand akgraner and myself will paste them in17:00
jcastroplease try to have a good question, if it's easily googleable we'll likely skip it17:00
jcastrowelcome mark!17:02
sabdflhello all17:02
jcastrosabdfl, akgraner and I will paste questions17:02
sabdflthanks jorge - happy to be here! hi amber17:02
jcastroso just say "next" when you are ready!17:02
sabdflfire away17:03
jcastrofeel free to kick it off!17:03
jcastroQUESTION: What's your opinion of ChromeOS?17:03
sabdflthere's a lot of concern in the desktop environment groups (Gnome, KDE) that Chrome will be bad for desktop linux, but i think it will be very good17:03
sabdflone of the toughest challenges for us in desktop linux is hardware compatibility17:04
sabdfland ChromeOS gives PC manufacturers *another* good reason to invest in Linux compatibility for their peripherals17:04
sabdflsame goes for Intel's Moblin17:04
sabdfli'm sure there are PC manufacturers now trying to figure out how to deliver Chrome. Since they don't know which peripherals and devices they will use, they are telling their suppliers "make sure it does linux" for *all* devices17:05
sabdflthat's got to be good for us too17:05
sabdflnext17:05
akgraner<openweek7> QUESTION: We, at least in the US, have seen Apple's "I'm a Mac and I'm a PC" ads. We've seen Microsoft's "Windows 7 was my idea" ads.  When will we see Canonical's Ubuntu ads?17:05
sabdflwe do advertise, but mostly to the corporate market17:06
sabdfli can picture our equivalent, though17:06
sabdflit would feature a poodle for the mac17:06
sabdflnext17:06
jcastroQUESTION: Hi from Saint Petersburg, Mark. Ubuntu is one of the first distributions to adopt 2.6.31 kernel, but many users discovered a lot of troubles with it - sound issues, disk issues, filesystem issues, usb issues.  How could this happen?17:06
sabdfli don't think there are substantially more issues with 2.6.31 than with .2817:07
sabdflbut there are likely *different* issues17:07
sabdflyou don't notice the new things that work (especially if you don't have those devices)17:07
sabdflbut you definitely do notice regressions17:07
sabdfli hope people tested the milestones, and reported bugs17:07
sabdflfor Lucid, we'll freeze the kernel earlier and call for more testing17:08
sabdfland have more time to address issues17:08
sabdfli believe .32 has a bunch of new stuff but .33 is supposed to be quite stable17:08
sabdflnext17:08
akgraner<Jesi> Question: Ubuntu has come along way, it's great and I'm pretty sure it's only going to get better, but no matter how great it becomes, if people don't know about it, we have a great grassroots effort but what about marketing?17:08
sabdflour marketing depends mostly on passionate technologists - you!17:08
sabdflthat's why the LoCo teams, and personal advocacy from our users, are so important17:09
sabdflit's why we ask people to share the CD they receive so as many people as possible can get it17:09
sabdflit doesn't make economic sense to do mass marketing for us now17:09
sabdflif it does in future, we'll do it17:09
sabdflnext17:09
jcastroQuestion: What's going to happen with compiz and gnome shell?17:09
sabdflgood question17:09
sabdflthe gnome shell work is very interesting17:10
sabdfli think mutter has a long way to go before it supports everything that compiz does17:10
sabdflbut i'm confident that mutter will become a great window manager in due course17:10
sabdfli saw today that gnome shell has been pushed back six months, so there is more time to get it right17:10
sabdflnext17:10
akgraner<jsgotangco> QUESTION: Hi Mark, so when will Asia have a taste of UDS? I'm pretty sure the region is a huge market for you at the moment, but it seems the collaborative development of Ubuntu is focusing solely on EU and the continental US. Lots of developers here too. Thanks.17:11
sabdfli would love to do a UDS in asia17:11
sabdflperhaps you could organise an online commitment roll, where developers can commit to coming if we have, say the 10.10 UDS there, or the 11.04 UDS there17:11
sabdfli like how debconf is put to community competition between cities17:12
sabdflif you want to make the case for UDS in asia, let us know which city and which developers would actually come17:12
sabdflnext17:12
jcastroQUESTION: What do you think can or should be done to encourage the spread of LoCo's throughout the world? Does the list of LoCo's look to you like it's representative of the size of the Ubuntu market, or user base?17:12
sabdfl(btw, the maestro 4k in Toulouse has proposed that city for the next UDS and it's being seriously considered because he has such a great track record in bringing the community together)17:13
sabdflwow, good question17:13
sabdfli haven't seen the LoCo list for a while so can't comment17:13
sabdflJono would be the best person to ask17:13
sabdfli saw a comment on a bug today, suggesting ReCo's for Regional Community, and CiCo's for City Community17:13
sabdflso, I think that network will grow in scale and complexity17:14
sabdflif you care about this, please do dive in and help with the LoCo Council and general organisation17:14
jonoindeed, feel free to email me17:14
sabdflthe most important thing is figuring out how to keep LoCo's healthy17:14
jonojono AT ubuntu dot com17:14
sabdflthey have no trouble starting17:14
sabdflbut we have trouble knowing if they are active, healthy, fun and positive17:14
sabdflnext17:14
akgraner<rrnwexec> QUESTION: Mark, do you have any specific advice on how to grow the market for Ubuntu? What's holding us back from grabbing 10% of the market in one year's time?17:14
sabdflrrnwexec: hardware compatibility, software solutions, economics17:15
sabdflbut all three are changing for the better17:15
sabdflhardware compat is improving because lots of PC manufacturers are starting to realise how much people love ubuntu17:15
sabdfland it's low cost for them too17:15
sabdflsoftware solutions - more and more ISV's are starting to certify Ubuntu, but we are still a long way behind red hat and suse in that regard17:16
sabdflwe have to stay friendly to both free and proprietary software solutions providers, that's important17:16
sabdflflash imrpved a lot recently, there's more to be done17:16
sabdfland economics... win xp was a diving catch for microsoft17:17
sabdflthey had to keep it alive much longer than planned17:17
sabdflcost them a fortune17:17
sabdflbut they left it out there as a cheap, familiar solution17:17
sabdflnow, with win7, i think the economics are back in our favour17:17
sabdflnext17:17
jcastroQUESTION: Will Canonical ever start branding hardware as "Ubuntu Compatible"?17:17
sabdfldefinitely, if we ever start making hardware, which is not in the plan :-)17:17
sabdflbut we do see more and more manufacturers putting the ubuntu logo on their boxes17:18
sabdflwhich is *great*17:18
sabdflnext17:18
akgraner<sebsebseb> QUESTION:  Have you already got any ideas for what Ubuntu 10.10  might be called, if so what?17:18
jcastroQUESTION: a lot of people still buy their computer software from a "brick and mortar" store, does Canonical have any plans to work with these stores to distribute Ubuntu, maybe for $5 ?17:18
jcastroSorry!17:18
sabdflsebsebseb: patience ;-)17:18
sabdflon the distribution front, we see people doing that today17:18
sabdflwe don't have an active program17:18
sabdflthough we do sell CD's in bulk for like $1 per CD so people could do that17:19
sabdflif you think it would work, see if you can get some brick and mortar stores to buy sets of 100 CD's and offer them17:19
sabdfli would suggest you offer the CD together with an install service (for more than $5) to make it worth the store's time17:19
sabdflnext17:19
akgraner<rrnwexec> QUESTION: Do you have any specific plans to encourage non-technical and non developer types to contribute to the project? (Translations and documentation exempt from this question.)17:20
sabdflwe do have the marketing team17:20
sabdfland locos and advocacy require organisational skill, more than technical skill17:20
sabdflthere's room for people of all talents, that's something we care a lot about in Ubuntu17:20
sabdflthis is NOT just for developers, and NOT for fundamentalists17:20
sabdflthis is for people who care about moving to a better technology world17:21
sabdflwhatever background, gender, or colour they have17:21
sabdflnext17:21
jcastroQUESTION: a lot of hardware-support issues (with regards to the linux kernel and as such with Ubuntu) is depending on the openess and cooperation from/with hardware vendors. How do you see hardware support in the future and what can we (in the broadest sense of the word) do to get more vendors to open up their specs and/or develop their own kernel drivers?17:21
sabdflwe have to demonstrate *business success* for them17:21
sabdflinitially, nost of them don't understand the open model17:22
sabdflthat doesn't mean they are stupid17:22
sabdflit's just unfamiliar17:22
sabdflit's better to engage with them on whatever terms they initially understand best17:22
sabdfland then show how they win deals and ship *volume*17:22
sabdflthat industry only makes money in volume, their margins are too tight17:22
sabdflthe enthusiast market loves to tell hardware companies to do linux, but then it doesn't buy their stuff17:23
sabdfl"because they picked the wrong distro" or "that's an old version"17:23
sabdflwell, there's no incentive there for the hardware companies to stick around and figure it out17:23
sabdflso, we have to engage with them, even if it starts with proprietary drivers, and show them money17:23
sabdflthen we can move them to free software17:23
sabdflnext17:23
akgranerrrnwexec> QUESTION: How is Ayatana coming along? Are you still energized by it? Is it still on the high priority list? (lots of Ayatana questions)17:23
sabdfli love that part of the project and spend a few hours on it every day (a lot of time for me)17:24
sabdflthere's a great and growing team17:24
sabdflthey really care about the desktop experience, and they are not fundamentalist about GNOME or KDE, they want *both* to get better17:24
sabdfli like how it's going, though it's taking longer than i would like to get a really effective machine running17:24
sabdflif you liked the notifications bits, and the messaging menu, you will love lucid17:25
sabdflwe are going to make sure that all works perfectly across all of main and universe17:25
sabdflwe'll neaten the panel up a lot17:25
sabdfland if you like the UNR, that's their design work too17:25
sabdflnext17:25
jcastroQUESTION: Why you don't use identi.ca and very-very seldom twittering? The same thing with blogging - some posts really very instresting. You, probably, have not enough time for such things, but please - it would be great to read your tweets/dents/posts as often as possible.17:25
sabdflthanks for the kudos!17:26
sabdfli should blog more often17:26
sabdflmy twitter account is only used by my evil identical twin for callous and coarse thoughts ;-)17:26
sabdflnext17:26
akgraner<mhall119|work> QUESTION: you can already buy desktops and laptops with Ubuntu installed from several vendor's online stores.  When do you think we will see them in brick and mortar stores, especially running as a demo?17:26
sabdflgetting Linux right at retail is a very serious challenge for us17:26
sabdflwe are working on it with a big manufacturer17:27
sabdflbut it's not easy and i can't promise it will happen soon17:27
sabdflit failed at walmart and a few other large scale attempts17:27
sabdflwe don't want to screw it up17:27
sabdflnext17:27
jcastroQUESTION: You stated at the last UbuntuOpenWeek that the economic problems might create good opportunities for GNU/Linux and Ubuntu. Since then, have you already found concrete evidence to support this prediction?17:27
sabdflyes - i was at an event for open source company CEO's last month17:28
sabdfleveryone agreed this had been their best year ever17:28
sabdflpeople got a fright and had to look hard at how they do IT17:28
sabdfland open source was a common answer17:28
sabdflnext17:28
akgraner<rrnwexec> QUESTION: Would you consider a short tour of the most active LoCo's to get some buzz and energy in the far outposts, or at least the ones that offer to take you out for beers ;)17:28
sabdfli generally do hang out with LoCo's in the places i go17:28
sabdflbut it hasn't been such a creative list of late17:29
sabdflnext year i expect to move on from London17:29
sabdflso perhaps i'll travel to more interesting places then17:29
sabdfland would love to hang out with LoCo's17:29
sabdflnext17:29
jcastroQUESTION: when and how do you see Canonical making a profit?17:29
sabdflfrom services, and in due course.17:29
sabdflto a certain extent, we choose to expand faster than our revenue base17:30
sabdflbecause we want to deliver a great solution across desktop, netbook *and* server17:30
sabdflso we are starting three businesses in one17:30
sabdflwhich is harder than three times one :-)17:30
sabdflif we wanted to, we could scale back our goals and break even sooner17:30
sabdflbut i worry that we are the main hope of genuinely free free software17:31
sabdfland i want to deliver that everywhere17:31
sabdflnext17:31
akgraner<MarkDude> QUESTION how important is having a diverse group of contributors (women & minority folks) to solving Bug #1?17:31
sabdflnot especially, but it makes the project more interesting17:31
sabdflnext17:31
jcastroQUESTION: Is there anything that the community isn't doing well enough that you like it to see people do better?17:31
sabdflwow17:32
sabdflthe community is so amazing it's hard to know what else one could ask for17:32
sabdfli'd like to see more engagement in bug triage and qa17:32
sabdflon the bug front, passing bugs upstream is really important17:32
sabdfla lot of upstreams don't see bug reports unless we pass them upstream17:33
sabdflbecause most people file bugs against the distro, not the upstream17:33
sabdflthat would help17:33
sabdflnext17:33
jcastro(talk to me later about upstreaming bugs folks  -ed.)17:33
akgraner<jbicha> QUESTION: do you foresee Canonical becoming a publicly traded company?17:33
sabdflif that's the right thing for us, sure17:33
sabdflnext17:33
jcastroQUESTION: Have you ever considered a large Ubuntu conference for the public? Would you consider doing it in the interest of getting the word out to a broader audience? (I'm thinking about something that has the reach and buzz of MacWorld San Francisco).17:33
sabdflwe did Ubuntu Live a few years back with O'Reilly17:34
sabdflit was too soon, we didn't have enough people coming17:34
sabdflsooner or later, someone will do an event, and we'll support it17:34
sabdflnext17:34
akgraner<willwill> QUESTION: I see that Ubuntu is being loaded with to-be moneymaker such as One, SwCenter. Why not "Ubuntu Enterprise" like Redhat & SUSE did?17:34
sabdflwell, there are two elements to the Enterprise Edition strategy as pursued by Red Hat and SUSE that I don't like17:35
sabdflfirst, you have to tell people they can't use the Enterprise Edition unless they pay for it17:35
sabdflefectively, you *have* to pay to use RHEL and SLES17:35
sabdfli want to make sure that Ubuntu can be used in rich and poor environments17:35
sabdflit costs me nothing if a guy in Bangladesh gives his copy of Ubuntu to someone else to install17:36
sabdflso i don't expect to be paid for it17:36
sabdflbut we offer services to companies that want them, and can afford them, to fund the platform17:36
sabdflso, Ubuntu *is* enterprise quality17:36
sabdflbut we don't make people "pay for the Enterprise version"17:36
sabdflthe second thing is about quality17:37
sabdflthe "Enterprise Version" strategy usually involves having a Community Version which is described as low quality, and and Enterprise Version (paid) that is not17:37
sabdflif you meet Red Hat folks at an exhibition and ask about using Fedora, you'll know what I mean17:37
sabdfli want to do high quality releases17:38
sabdflso our non-LTS releases get high quality maintenance and updates17:38
sabdfland LTS get those, but for longer17:38
sabdflthere are some other differences17:38
sabdflbut you can, and people do, deploy non-LTS releases in serious production environments17:38
sabdfland that's wonderful17:38
sabdflso, we won't go down that route17:38
sabdflnext question17:38
jcastroQUESTION: What are your thoughts on "Linux" as a brand? Is the term still meaningful, compelling? Do you think it's necessary to co-brand Ubuntu to always include the term "Linux"?17:38
sabdflno, i don't think so17:39
sabdflof course, the Linux kernel is an essential ingredient17:39
sabdflbut it;'s just one part of a huge and complex system17:39
sabdfland you may be right if you think that emphasising Linux gives too much credit and causes confusion17:39
sabdflnext17:39
akgraner<SoftwareExplorer> Question: What's your average day like?17:39
sabdfllong17:39
sabdfli try to be up and exercising by 7, email at 8, office at 9 till 7, then home17:40
sabdflcalls in the evening, lots of email17:40
sabdflnot exactly james bond17:40
sabdflthat whole billionaire cosmonaut bachelor thing is overrated17:40
sabdflnext17:40
jcastroQUESTION: Do you have a linux phone (such as android or openmoko)? :)17:40
sabdflnope. symbian17:41
sabdflnext17:41
akgraner<matt_2048> QUESTION: to what extent do you see Lucid as a critical release, especially for the home user who may be used to a longer upgrade cycle?17:41
sabdfllucid is critical for us, yes17:41
sabdflwe're working harder than ever on the details of the plan17:41
sabdflwe will need a lot of support from the community and from upstreams to make it *amazing*17:41
sabdflnext17:42
akgraner<rrnwexec> QUESTION: Did you attend (or hear about) any great release parties this time around? And, do you feel that Release Parties are a good marketing tool?17:42
sabdflrelease parties are for us to celebrate our work together, i don't think of them as marketing17:42
sabdfli go to the London one, usually that's where I am at release time17:42
sabdflthis one was great, in the west end17:42
sabdflnext17:42
jcastroQUESTION: What is your next world-changing idea, now that the Ubuntu project is well on its way to fixing Bug #1?17:42
sabdflif we get Ubuntu to the point of self-funding growth, i will stay involved and use it to explore lots of interesting ideas17:43
sabdflan OS is an amazing basis for interests in just about any part of technology17:43
sabdflrobotics? we got it. servers and cloud? we got it. consumer electronics? we got it17:43
sabdfli picked this project because *if* it works, it should keep me out of trouble for a long time17:44
sabdflby trouble, i mean space ;-)17:44
sabdflnext17:44
jcastroQUESTION: Don't you think that Ubuntu releases too often? Linus Torvalds talked about a yearly release as a good compromise.17:44
sabdfli didn't think linus did compromise ;-)17:44
sabdflnext17:44
akgraner<Jesi> Question: You say you have marketing in the corporate sector,  and Ubuntu is starting to do great things with cloud computing and servers, but what about "Linux or Human Beings"? I thought the focus of Ubuntu was the average, person, the desktop user, I think it's great you provide a server set up as well, but will Ubuntu live up to it's promise of empowering people,  using technology to create a brighter future?17:44
sabdflthat was about marketing, which is expensive17:45
sabdflwe do focus on the desktop case, for the home user, but we don't run big marketing campaigns17:45
sabdflas i said there, our marketing for consumers is entirely advocacy and word of mouth17:46
sabdflit depends on YOU to get the word out17:46
sabdflif you think it needs marketing, start talking and helping people learn about it17:46
sabdflnext17:46
jcastro<sebsebseb> QUESTION:  If you don't mind answering,  what kind of  things do you spend your money on,  other than funding Canonical and the space visits (which people like mentioning in Ubuntu articles)17:46
akgraner<speel> QUESTION: Since Ubuntu is becoming popular do you find more and more people thinking that Ubuntu IS linux?17:46
akgranersorry17:46
sabdflnp17:46
sabdfli don't spend a lot on myself, relatively speaking17:46
sabdfli have a plane, which is a big luxury17:47
sabdflbut i don't live a particularly lavish lifestyle17:47
sabdflyet17:47
sabdfla lot of people think Google IS the Internet :-)17:47
sabdfli don't worry about that. people figure stuff out over time, as needed17:47
sabdflif people think their first distro *is* linux, that's OK till they need to know more17:48
sabdflat which point someone will certainly, helpfully, point it out to them17:48
sabdflnext17:48
jcastroQUESTION: Have you considered tracking Bug #1 with more numeric precision, and publishing the results? I would personally like to see the uptick of Ubuntu user stats displayed very prominently. I was close enough to Redmond WA a few years back to see/feel the fear that erupted when Firefox began doing that.17:48
sabdflit's so hard to quantify17:48
sabdfli don't want to get worked up about bad statistics, either way17:48
sabdflwe just focus on making ubuntu wonderful, and let nature do the rest17:49
sabdflnext17:49
akgraner<openweek2> QUESTION: How do you envision Ubuntu on the netbook market for the coming years? Do you have a strategy?17:49
sabdflnope. nossir. no strategy at all.17:49
sabdflwe are working on both Moblin and UNR versions17:49
sabdflDell just launched the Moblin Developer netbook, which is cool17:49
sabdflnext17:49
jcastroQUESTION:  Where is Ubuntu actually heading?  It seems at the moment that it is on the verge of becoming a lot more Windows user friendly. For example plans for the Ubuntu Software Centre: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter17:50
sabdflwe have to be friendly to established platforms17:50
sabdflthe software centre is going to rock! making it easier for people to find the goodness that's already there17:50
sabdflas for the long term... it's a work in progress17:50
sabdfli have good plans for lucid, and rough plans for lucid+1, but it's tough to be detailed beyond that17:51
sabdflnext17:51
akgraner<artir> QUESTION: New artwork for Lucid?17:51
sabdflnew window decorations17:51
sabdflsome new icons for the panel indicators17:51
sabdflsome new styling on boot and login17:51
sabdflno new gtk theme17:51
sabdflnext17:51
jcastroQUESTION: I worked quite hard to write a patch fixing a11y issues in NotifyOsd - that were mentioned in ayatana's ML and, i must say, ignored, and a few months later, still no news. Whats the point of open source if there is no way to contribute outside of canonical?17:51
sabdflpost again to the ayatana list and i'll ask the team to follow up17:52
sabdflif you changed the experience, then it might not have been considered because those changes were too extreme17:52
=== mr is now known as Guest44206
sabdflnext17:53
akgraner<nameiner> QUESTION: What is your favorite app?17:53
sabdflfirefox17:53
sabdflnext17:53
jcastroQuestion: How do you see touchscreen and multitouch being integrated into the Ubuntu OS, and what tricks might be part of it that will do something that the competition won't do?17:53
sabdflwe don't have good enough plans on that front, i haven't thought about it, and i should have. sorry!17:53
sabdflnext17:53
jcastroQUESTION: Is Canonical going to try and get Ubuntu (and Edubuntu) into schools, the way Microsoft and Apple did to gain their mindshare?17:53
jcastro(need more questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please)17:54
sabdflUbuntu is already hugely popular in schools17:54
sabdflSpain, Macedonia, Greece and others all have active deployments17:54
sabdfli don't know more17:54
sabdflwe don't have a business model for Ubuntu in schools, which limits what we can invest there17:54
sabdflbut i'm delighted that it's a great base for the work of others in that sector17:55
sabdflnext17:55
akgraner<finux> Question Mark > With the trend of cross-platform hacking attacks against systems connected to the Internet, what do you think the biggest challenge your security team will see in the next three years, and do you think that maybe a united front from all software vendors is needed.  Like recently with the null prefix attack against SSL/TLS which was cross platform, and how the different vendors took varying times to fix it17:55
sabdflboy, i wish I could see the future. ubuntu would have *amazing* security if i could :-)17:55
sabdfli hope we'll never see another flaw like the OpenSSH one that hit Debian and Ubuntu.17:56
sabdflever17:56
sabdflEVAR17:56
sabdflbut for the rest we have to be responsive, clear, effective and deliver the updates cleanly17:56
sabdfli think we have a great track record17:56
sabdflbetter than any other free distro, and better than at least one of the commercial ones17:56
sabdflnext17:56
jcastro<playya> QUESTION: Do you plan to support more mobile devices like tablets and smartphones17:56
akgraner<openweek8_> QUESTION: when you have a problem with your laptop, do you fix it or just someone in Canonical? :-)17:56
sabdflyes17:56
sabdfli try, then i ask around :-)17:57
sabdflnext17:57
jcastro<MarkDude> FOLLOW-UP QUESTION - did you just say that primarily white dudes are able to address the solving of Bug #1? Women & minorities just make it more interesting? Please clarify.17:57
sabdflMarkDude, if you think i can't see a baited trap from this close, you're mistaken17:58
sabdfli said that having diversity in the project is a wonderful goal. but it's no more a requirement to fix bug #1 than it is a requirement to do most other things. fundamentalism is something i despise, and that goes for overdone activism too.17:59
jcastro(that was the last question)17:59
ubottuhttps://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1 (Timeout)17:59
sabdflthanks all!17:59
jcastroThanks everyone for participating!17:59
jcastrowe'll take a minute break and then Leann will begin with Kernel QA!18:00
jcastrothanks sabdfl!18:00
sabdflyou all rock. thanks for a great 9.10 and here's to a fantastic 10.04 LTS18:00
akgranerthanks sabdfl !!!18:00
ogasawaraman, sabdfl is such a tough act to follow18:00
=== jcastro changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session: Kernel QA - The Lifecycle of a Kernel Bug - Leann Ogasawara || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
jcastrotake it away ogasawara!18:01
ogasawaraHi Everyone!18:01
ogasawaraWelcome to the Kernel QA session - A Kernel Bug's Life Cycle.18:01
ogasawaraMy name is Leann Ogasawara and I help manage the Ubuntu Kernel Team's incoming and existing bugs against the kernel.18:01
ogasawaraHaving to deal with such a large volume of bugs is an on going challenge for us.18:01
ogasawaraI thought this session would be a good opportunity to discuss the life cycle of a kernel bug and what bug reporters and triagers should expect.18:02
ogasawaraThe life cycle of a kernel bug is pretty straight forward.18:02
ogasawara1: Report the Bug18:02
ogasawara2: Triage the Bug18:02
ogasawara3: Fix the Bug18:02
ogasawaraLet's get started and begin with Part 1: Report the Bug18:02
ogasawaraUbuntu kernel bugs should be filed against the "linux" kernel package.18:02
ogasawaraIt's important to make sure the bug is filed against the linux package to help ensure it gets looked at by the Ubuntu kernel team.18:02
ogasawaraReporting a kernel bug can be done by running the following command from a Terminal (Applications->Accessories->Terminal):18:03
ogasawaraubuntu-bug linux18:03
ogasawaraRunning the command will automatically gather general kernel debug information and attach it to the bug being filed.18:03
ogasawaraThis includes information such as dmesg output, lspci, kernel version, etc.18:03
ogasawaradmesg output provides a log of kernel messages that often contains helpful debug information.18:03
ogasawaralspci output lets us know about hardware a system has.18:04
ogasawaraAnd the kernel version lets us know the exact kernel version the bug is being reported against.18:04
ogasawaraPart of the bug reporting process also involves writing a title for the bug.18:04
ogasawaraPlease make sure the title of the bug report is descriptive.18:04
ogasawaraDon't use something like "Suspend Fails" or "Wireless is broken".18:04
ogasawaraIt's better to use for example "Suspend fails to resume on my Dell Inspiron 1420".18:04
ogasawaraAlways include hardware or driver information in a kernel bug's title when applicable.18:05
ogasawaraThe reason I say this is because kernel bugs are often hardware specific.18:05
ogasawaraEven though someone may be experiencing the same symptom of a bug, they should really open a new report if they have different hardware than the original bug reporter.18:05
ogasawaraDifferent hardware uses different drivers which likely require different fixes, hence the reason for opening separate bug reports.18:05
ogasawaraRemember, hijacking someone else's bug report is bad.18:06
ogasawaraWe can always mark a bug as a duplicate of another bug later on if necessary.18:06
ogasawaraWhen something like "Suspend Fails" is used as the title, everyone with suspend/resume issues ends up subscribing and commenting to the bug.18:06
ogasawaraThis invites others to post completely unrelated information to the bug.18:06
ogasawaraEven worse, the bug will often get a flurry of "me too" comments posted.18:06
ogasawara"Me too" comments serve no useful purpose in helping fix a bug and only bloat a bug report.18:07
ogasawaraThis results in impossible to follow bug reports which are not likely to get much attention from the kernel team.18:07
ogasawaraIf you are affected by the same issue, Launchpad now has an +affectsmetoo functionality.  Just click on the "Does this bug affect you?" link in the bug report.18:07
ogasawaraIf you are the original bug reporter and feel someone commenting on your bug has a separate issue, don't be afraid to kindly tell them they have a separate issue and to open a new report.18:07
ogasawaraThese are the many reasons why I stress the importance of a descriptive bug title.18:08
ogasawaraAlong with providing a descriptive title for the bug report, it's also just as important to provide a well written bug description.18:08
ogasawaraFor the bug's description, it's always great to include steps to reproduce the issue if possible.18:08
ogasawaraThis helps others to confirm they do indeed have the same bug.18:08
ogasawaraAdditionally, it will help the developers debug the situation by either being able to reproduce the issue or get an idea what might be the root cause of the issue.18:08
ogasawaraAlso, the bug description is a great place to mention if this is a regression or not.18:09
ogasawaraIf the bug is a regression, it's important to also tag the bug as a regression.18:09
ogasawaraAt the bottom or each bug report's description there should be a "Tags" line and a yellow pencil edit icon to add, remove, or update a bug's tag(s).18:09
ogasawaraThere are usually 4 different regression tags that kernel bugs will use:18:10
ogasawara1) regression-potential - A bug discovered in the development release that was not present in the stable release.18:10
ogasawaraFor example, right now Lucid is known as the development release and Karmic is the previous stable release.18:10
ogasawaraIf someone finds a regression while testing Lucid while we are still in the development phase, this would be tagged "regression-potential".18:10
ogasawara2) regression-release - A regression in a new stable release.18:11
ogasawaraFor example, Karmic just had it's official release.  If a regression is found in Karmic, this would be tagged "regression-release".18:11
ogasawararegression-potential bugs could very well become regression-release bugs.18:11
ogasawara3) regression-update - A regression introduced by an updated package in the stable release.18:11
ogasawaraFor example, if Jaunty released a new kernel update and if a regression were discovered due to the update, this would be tagged "regression-update"18:11
ogasawara4) regression-proposed - A regression introduced by a package in -proposed18:12
ogasawaraPrior to any updates being released, packages sit in what's called -proposed.  See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/EnableProposed .  If a regression is found in -proposed, this would be tagged "regression-proposed"18:12
ogasawaraFor more information, refer to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/RegressionTracking18:12
ogasawaraIf the bug is a regression, making sure to also specifically note the most recent version of the kernel where the bug did not occur and the version where the bug was first introduced is most helpful.18:12
ogasawaraThis can help isolate the set of kernel patches which should be examined.18:12
ogasawaraWith this version information a git bisect could also be used to determine the specific patch which introduced the regression.18:13
ogasawaraFor those of you who don't know, git is the revision control system which is used by the upstream kernel as well as the Ubuntu kernel.  For more information on git refer to:18:13
ogasawarahttp://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/18:13
ogasawaraRegarding the git bisect, it's basically a multi-step process to systematically narrow down a specific commit which introduced a regression.18:13
ogasawaraIt involves a series of steps of marking a known "good" and "bad" kernel version and proceeding to build and test kernels.18:13
ogasawaraIt usually only takes a few iterations to narrow down a specific patch which is causing issues.18:14
ogasawaraFor more information please refer to:18:14
ogasawarahttp://www.kernel.org/doc/local/git-quick.html#bisect18:14
ogasawaraLastly, it's also good to comment on the frequency the bug is occurring.18:14
ogasawaraCan the bug be triggered at will or does it happen randomly?  If it happens randomly, how often does it happen?18:14
ogasawaraOnce a bug has been reported, I have some additional tips to keep in mind that will help the kernel team work with the bug.18:14
ogasawaraFirst, make sure bug reports are kept up to date.  Even a small comment that the issue still exists against the latest 2.6.xx-yy.zz kernel is useful.18:15
ogasawaraAlso, when asked to test the latest development kernel, please don't be difficult and reply with "I can't believe you want me to test a newer kernel!  This bug is against Hardy, which is an LTS release so it should be fixed there!"18:15
ogasawaraWe understand where the frustration is coming from, but the hostile remark does not help solve the bug.18:15
ogasawaraRants in general do not help resolve a bug, they rather have the opposite affect of annoying the developers trying to fix the issue.18:15
ogasawaraThe fact of the matter is that before any kernel bug can qualify for a Stable Release Update, the bug should be confirmed as fixed in the actively developed kernel.18:16
ogasawaraRefer to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates for the Stable Release Update bug criteria and procedures.18:16
ogasawaraAlso, if a bug has been resolved, don't be afraid to close the bug report.18:16
ogasawaraMarking the bug "Fix Released" helps make the kernel team's (and bug control team's) triaging efforts one step easier.18:16
ogasawaraWe can always use additional help triaging kernel bugs which brings us to Part 2 of a kernel bug's life cycle, triaging the bug.18:16
ogasawaraBut before we move on, I'm going to take a moment to field questions (if there are nay).  Remember to post them in #ubuntu-classroom-chat , I'll copy and reply to them here.18:17
ogasawaraaight, lets move on18:18
ogasawaraPart 2: Triage the Bug18:18
ogasawaraRemember, as a triager we are often the first point of contact for a bug reporter.18:19
ogasawaraIt's important that we help move a bug into a good working state as well as help educate the bug reporter to submit better bug reports in the future.18:19
ogasawaraSo how does that happen?18:19
ogasawaraFirst, make sure Ubuntu kernel bugs are assigned to the Ubuntu linux kernel package.18:19
ogasawarahttp://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux18:19
ogasawaraIf a bug reporter did not correctly file the bug against the linux kernel package, help reassign the bug and kindly remind them to report future kernel bugs against the linux kernel package.18:19
ogasawaraFailing to do so may result in the bug getting overlooked.18:20
ogasawaraIt may be helpful to also point them at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage .18:20
ogasawaraNext, we want to make sure a bug is really not a duplicate of another bug.18:20
ogasawaraopenweek7_> QUESTION: Does 'ubuntu-bug linux' allow to significantly automate identifying duplicate errors?18:20
ogasawaraopenweek7_: yes, during the bug filing process launchpad will present you a list of bugs this might be a duplicate of18:21
ogasawaraWhen marking bugs as duplicates, this is where we as kernel triagers need to be careful.18:21
ogasawaraKernel bugs are usually hardware specific.18:22
ogasawaraJust because someone may be experiencing the same symptom of another bug, it doesn't necessarily mean they have the same bug.18:22
ogasawaraWhen in doubt, don't mark it as a duplicate and ask for a second opinion.18:22
ogasawaraAdditionally, if you see someone comment on a bug and they don't have the same hardware, ask them to open a new bug report and explain why.18:22
ogasawaraThis really helps prevent bugs from becoming wildly out of control with unrelated comments and impossible for a developer to follow, let alone fix.18:22
ogasawaraNext, help make sure the title of the bug as well as the bug description is informative.18:23
ogasawaraLike I mentioned earlier when reporting a bug, a title of "Sounds is broken" or "Suspend fails" is not informative.18:23
ogasawaraAs a triager, if a bug doesn't have an informative title, help fix the title by making it more descriptive.18:23
ogasawaraOne way to help improve the title is to mention the affected hardware or driver in the title.18:23
ogasawaraAnother role of your job as a triager is to help improve the bug's description.18:24
ogasawaraOne common improvement to a bug description would be to copy any relevant bits of debug information from the attached log files and paste them into the description of the bug.18:24
ogasawaraThis could include items such as error messages found in a reporter's dmesg output or hardware information found in the lspci output.18:24
ogasawaraYou may also want to post a comment as to why you're fixing the title or description of a bug to help remind the bug reporter to choose a better title/description in the next bug they report.18:24
ogasawarawhen triaging, it's also helpful to tag the bug when applicable.18:24
ogasawaraBecause the volume of kernel bugs is so high, tags are a useful way for triagers and developers to group and search for a category of bugs.18:25
ogasawaraOne example of tags we talked about earlier were for regressions - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/RegressionTracking18:25
ogasawaraIf you see a bug is a regression and it has not been tagged, please feel free to add the appropriate tag.18:25
ogasawaraA list of common bug tags used by the kernel can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Tags under the "Kernel Specific" section.18:25
ogasawaraNext, if you find you have the same hardware as a bug being reported, try to reproduce the bug yourself.18:25
ogasawaraIt's not unheard of for hardware to become faulty.  Being able to help confirm this is or is not the result of hardware going bad is important.18:26
ogasawaraNow I know the next part is sometimes a bit controversial, but it's also best if the issue has been confirmed against the latest kernel available.18:26
ogasawaraI realize this is a touchy subject for some individuals and some reporters often object to always being asked to "test the latest".18:26
ogasawaraHowever, when you are dealing with the kernel, keep in mind there are literally thousands of commits between each release.18:27
ogasawaraThen consider that each commit touches more than just one line of code and you've now hit insanity trying to isolate one fix (if it even exists) for a single bug.18:27
ogasawaraIt's much easier if someone triaging the bug could kindly ask if the issue remains with the actively developed kernel.18:27
ogasawaraFinally, one of the most important aspects of triaging kernel bugs is making sure the appropriate debug information is attached.18:28
ogasawaraFor the kernel this means dmesg output, lspci, kernel version info, etc.18:28
ogasawaraIf a bug has been reported without this information, I recommend that instead of asking bug reporters to attach these files individually, have them run apport-collect.18:28
ogasawaraapport-collect will automatically gather and attach package specific debug information for a bug.18:28
ogasawaraFor example, if we wanted kernel debug info attached to pretend bug 987654, the apport-collect command would look like:18:29
ubottuError: Launchpad bug 987654 could not be found18:29
ogasawaraheh18:29
ogasawaraapport-collect -p linux 98765418:29
ogasawaraThere's less room for error having a bug reporter run one command versus having a bug reporter run multiple commands to capture multiple log files.18:29
ogasawaraBut as I mentioned earlier, it's best to just use ubuntu-bug to report the bug in the first place.18:29
ogasawarafagan> Question: when dealing with a hardware specific bug how are you able to confirm it?18:29
ogasawarafagan: if you happen to have the same hardware, hopefully the reporter has steps to reproduce for you to test and confirm the issue18:30
ogasawarafagan: unfortunately if you do not have the same hardware, the best you can do it make sure appropriate debug info is attached for the developers to dig in to18:30
ogasawaraIn the process of attempting to triage a bug, if you've asked a bug reporter to provide more information, be sure to set the bug's status to Incomplete.18:31
ogasawaraAlso be sure to subscribe yourself to a bug so that you are automatically notified when they have responded with the requested information.18:31
ogasawaraOnce the bug looks ready for a developer to begin working on it, set the status of the bug to Triaged and make sure the Importance is set.18:31
ogasawaraNote that being able to set a bug to Triaged and also to set the Importance requires that you be a member of the Ubuntu Bug Control team in Launchpad.18:31
ogasawaraTo learn how to join the ubuntu-bugcontrol team, refer to https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugcontrol18:32
ogasawaraI'd also like to bring up one last thing to keep in mind when triaging kernel bugs . . . and that's forwarding the bug upstream.18:32
ogasawaraBefore a bug can be forwarded upstream, it should be confirmed to exist when running the latest upstream kernel.18:32
ogasawaraThe Ubuntu kernel team has started building vanilla mainline kernel builds for users to test with.18:32
ogasawaraSee https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/MainlineBuilds18:33
ogasawaraIf a bug exists with the upstream kernel, the bug should be forwarded upstream so that the upstream kernel developers are also aware of the issue.18:33
ogasawaraAdditionally, it may be discovered that the bug is fixed upstream and we should pull the fix back into the Ubuntu kernel.18:33
ogasawaraIf a bug has already been reported to the upstream kernel bugzilla, http://bugzilla.kernel.org/ , we should make sure we set up an upstream bug watch from the Launchpad bug report to the upstream bug report.18:33
ogasawaraSee https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Watches for more information on how to set an upstream bug watch.18:33
ogasawaraAnd since I think we have time, I'd also like to take a moment here to point out some extra specific triaging/debugging tips and tricks that people may find useful.18:34
ogasawarabut I'll field two questions really quick18:34
ogasawaranameiner> QUESTION: When is the time to set a bug's status to confirmed or is this for the devs?18:34
ogasawaranameiner: anyone can set a bug's status to Confirmed . . .18:34
ogasawaranameiner: the time to do so is when you have been able to confirm the bug yourself18:35
ogasawaranameiner: otherwise if you think enough debug information it attached to confirm the issue, feel free to set it to confirmed then as well18:35
ogasawaranameiner: if you can then get a hold of someone in ubuntu-bugcontrol (usuall in #ubuntu-bugs), they can review and set it to Triaged18:36
ogasawaraopenweek1____> Question:  Why the Edubuntu 9.10 does not have LTSP module on it?18:36
ogasawaraopenweek1____: unfortunately I don't know the answer to that one, best to file a bug so it can be investigated :)18:36
ogasawaraok, moving on to helpful triaging/debugging tips and tricks18:37
ogasawaraFirst, triaging update/install bugs . . .18:37
ogasawaraHaving dealt with a good number of these types of bugs myself, I took the liberty to document some of the more common types of update/install issues I saw while triaging.18:37
ogasawaraSee https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/DebuggingUpdateErrors18:37
ogasawaraThat wiki outlines what some of the common error messages look like and the master bug the issue is likely a duplicate of.18:38
ogasawaraThere are also examples of bugs being reported that really are not valid bugs.18:38
ogasawaraFor example, an update/install failing due to the fact the user ran out of disk space is not a bug.  We have no control over how much disk space someone has.18:38
ogasawaraThe next tip is for triaging wifi issues. . .18:38
ogasawaraSome may or may not know that for the past few releases we've been packaging an updated compat-wireless stack from upstream via the linux-backports-modules package.18:38
ogasawaraThis allows users to run a newer compat-wireless stack which may in fact contain a fix for an issue they are seeing.18:39
ogasawaraMost recently for karmic we've actually been packaging the upstream stable compat-wireless release.18:39
ogasawaraIf somone is experiencing wifi issues and uses a driver supported via the compat-wireless stack, they should try installing and testing the linux-backports-modules-wireless-karmic-generic package.18:39
ogasawaraA list of supported drivers which would be eligible for testing using the linux-backports-modules package can be seen at http://wireless.kernel.org/en/users/Drivers .18:40
ogasawaraSimilarly, the next tip for triaging sound issues follows the same philosophy. . .18:40
ogasawaraFor the Karmic release, we also packaged an updated alsa-driver snapshot for testing.18:40
ogasawaraIf someone is experiencing sound issues, it might not hurt to try installing and testing the linux-backports-modules-alsa-karmic-generic package.18:40
ogasawaraAnd lastly, a tip for triaging kernel panics. . .18:41
ogasawaraOne of the recent additions to Karmic is the linux-crashdump utility.18:41
ogasawaraIn the event you have a kernel panic and the system is unrecoverable, linux-crashdump can help at least capture the contents of the panic and the events leading up to the panic to help provide some post event diagnosis and analysis.18:41
ogasawaraFor more information, refer to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/CrashdumpRecipe18:41
ogasawaraIn general, another good source for common debugging/triaging tips can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/KnowledgeBase#Debugging18:42
ogasawaraAs always, feel free to also take a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/KernelTeamBugPolicies for more triaging information.18:42
ogasawaraThe volume of kernel bugs can be daunting, especially considering the limited number of resources the kernel team has.18:42
ogasawaraIf anyone has the desire to want to start helping out with Triaging kernel bugs, please let me know!  I'd be more than happy to help you get started.18:42
ogasawaraSo before we move on to Part 3, Fixing the Bug, I'd like to field any additional questions if there are any . . .18:43
ogasawaraOk, lets move on . . .18:44
ogasawaraPart 3: Fix the bug18:44
ogasawaraOnce a bug has been reported and moved into a Triaged state, this implies the bug has enough information and is ready for a developer to hopefully begin debugging the issue and working on a fix.18:44
ogasawaraWhen a developer begins working on a bug, they should assign the bug to their self and also set the Status of the bug to In Progress.18:44
ogasawaraPlease do not assign someone else to a bug unless you have their permission.18:45
ogasawaraLikewise, do not mark a bug as In Progress unless you are actively working on fixing the bug.18:45
ogasawaraIgnoring these requests will result in the bug likely getting overlooked as others will think someone else is already addressing the issue.18:45
ogasawaraWhen a developer has a possible patch to test, they will typically build a test kernel for the bug reporter to try.18:46
ogasawaraAs a bug reporter, please be responsive with testing and feedback.18:46
ogasawaraIdeally, the patch being tested will have originated from upstream or will have already been submitted upstream.18:46
ogasawaraIf a patch has not been pushed upstream, it needs to go upstream first.18:46
ogasawaraIt's preferable for a patch to first be accepted upstream and then be pulled back down into the Ubuntu kernel.18:46
ogasawaraOnce a patch has been committed to the Ubuntu kernel git repository, the status of the bug should be changed to Fix Committed.18:47
ogasawaraThis is usually done by the developer.18:47
ogasawaraOnly when a package containing the fix has been released to the archive should the status of the bug change to Fix Released.18:47
ogasawaraAssuming the developer made a note of the bug # in the changelog, the launchpad janitor should automatically update the status of the bug to Fix Released when a package containing the fix has been released.18:47
ogasawaraOnce a bug has been marked Fix Released please refrain from re-opening the bug unless you are the original bug reporter and the issue remains unresolved.18:47
ogasawaraIf someone is still experiencing issues after a fix has been released, it's likely they are experiencing a different issue which warrants opening a new and separate bug report.18:48
ogasawaraLikewise, if a bug has been marked Won't Fix or Invalid, please do not re-open the bug.18:48
ogasawaraThere should have been a reason explaining why the bug is being marked Won't Fix or Invalid.18:48
ogasawaraJust because the status changes back to New, it doesn't change the reason the bug was originally closed.18:49
ogasawaraSo that should cover the general life cycle of an Ubuntu Kernel Bug.18:49
ogasawaraAre there any other questions?18:49
ogasawaraOtherwise we can end 10min early for people to stretch before the amazing bethlynn takes over.18:49
ogasawaraOk, I think we'll end a few mins early.  Thanks everyone!18:50
ogasawaraAnd feel free to ping me if you have any other questions or want to get involved.18:50
bethlynnI am Beth Lynn Eicher of the Ohio LinuxFest. For the past 10 years I have been involved in user group activities18:58
bethlynnI am distro agostic18:58
bethlynnI use Ubuntu, SUSE, RHEL, Fedora18:58
=== akgraner changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session: Resolving Bug One - BethLynnEicher || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
akgranerbethlynn will be right back19:02
akgranerchat client issues I believe...19:02
bethlynn1Sorry... I'm back19:06
akgranerwelcome back  hands back over to bethlynn119:06
bethlynn1I am a professional system adminstrator who does not code19:06
bethlynn1so19:06
bethlynn1hacking on a bug is something that is unfamilar to me19:06
bethlynn1however,19:06
bethlynn1I am working on the biggest, most challenging bug, bug one19:07
bethlynn1Microsoft has majority market share19:07
bethlynn1When I first saw this bug file a few years ago, I was acutally a little ubset by it19:07
bethlynn1because I was in an environment where bug one actually was resolved19:08
bethlynn1I was working for Carnegie Mellon School of Computer Science which has deployed Linux on the desktop for almost 15 years19:08
bethlynn1The truth of the matter is that Microsoft is relatively new to the market place in the span of computuing history.19:09
bethlynn1The year is 2009. Unix is 40 years old.19:09
bethlynn1And in the beginning, it was assumed that you would share your source code19:10
bethlynn1This is why Richard Stallman was so annoyed in 1981 when he was told that he could have access to a printer driver code due to an non-disclosure agreement19:11
bethlynn1it is due to Marketing that the Microsoft operating systems are seen as the way things have always been19:12
bethlynn1and how they will always be19:12
bethlynn1Apple computer has done their own marketing to rebut this19:12
bethlynn1but what have we, as Linux users, especially Ubuntu users, done to tell the true story of how Linux is a useable operating system?19:13
bethlynn1At Southern California Linux Expo, Zonker, the Open SUSE community manager19:15
bethlynn1proposed an answer19:15
bethlynn1The Linux Dairy council19:15
bethlynn1The idea, is based on how American dairy farmers have formed a collective19:15
bethlynn1to make a marketing campagin that is very successful. Everyone in the Unitied States knows the phrase "Got Milk?"19:16
bethlynn1and that the Dairy council recommends 3 servings a day19:16
bethlynn1without this campaign19:17
bethlynn1if small farmers would have to market their own farm19:17
bethlynn1and their own brand of milk, cheese, yougurt, etc....19:17
bethlynn1instead of competing against eachother, they have come together to say one unitifed message that gets out there19:18
bethlynn1If you want to get involved in the distro neutral marketing of Linux, I highly recommend you join the Linux Dairy Council19:19
bethlynn1It's a google group: http://groups.google.com/group/linux-dairy-council19:19
bethlynn1We need a diverse group of people to be invovled in the task of marketing19:20
bethlynn1People of different geographic locations19:20
bethlynn1People of different languages19:20
bethlynn1and especially19:21
bethlynn1different people who have non-geek friends19:21
bethlynn1There is still an elistism in the Linux communityk19:21
bethlynn1that the operating system we use is for geeks, by geeks19:22
bethlynn1and that deploying Linux for their family19:22
bethlynn1friends and neighbors19:22
bethlynn1will be damaging to the relationship19:22
bethlynn1There is a fear that you will get a call at any given time of the day about how much Linux sucks because they don't understand it19:23
bethlynn1or because they can't do X19:23
bethlynn1first let me discuss the calls about "how much Linux sucks"19:24
bethlynn1I have deployed Linux on the desktop to non-geeks several times19:24
bethlynn1these are people who have zero interest in the command line19:24
bethlynn1just by sitting down and interviewing the person to see what they want to do with their computer before hand19:25
bethlynn1then preparting the Linux software and testing it for them, goes a long way19:25
bethlynn1at deployment time, show them how to do these tasks19:25
bethlynn1this is relationship building19:26
bethlynn1not relationship damanging19:26
bethlynn1when done well19:26
bethlynn1how to do this welll19:26
bethlynn1don't take away the keyboard19:26
bethlynn1let them play19:26
bethlynn1and assure them that they can't break it19:27
bethlynn1which is true because they will not invoke root anyway19:27
bethlynn1with the Ubuntu distrobution19:27
bethlynn1admin commands with a graphical interface get a prompt that doubles well as a message for "are you sure you really want to do this"19:28
bethlynn1with a prompt for a password19:28
bethlynn1now on to the "it doesn't do X" issue19:29
bethlynn1interviewing the person first about their needs first also is key to avoiding this issue19:29
bethlynn1setup the software for them if a tool to do X exists19:30
bethlynn1Jono Bacon discussed in his book "The art of community"19:30
bethlynn1that the audio software that he needed did not exist in his early days of podcasting19:30
bethlynn1it is possible, but increasingly unlikely that the Ubuntu Mulitverse lacks a package to do at least something close to X19:31
bethlynn1sometimes you need to conceed that their isn't a tool that does X19:32
bethlynn1examine if it works in Wine19:32
bethlynn1or if Crossover will support it19:32
bethlynn1if you can't find a package that does X, post the problem to a mailing list somewhere19:33
bethlynn1that gets into the internet search enginies19:33
bethlynn1that allows you tell the world that this bug is out there19:34
bethlynn1a question for the Ubuntu community19:34
bethlynn1please answer in -chat19:34
bethlynn1is there some way that people can file another bug and attach it as related to bug one19:34
bethlynn1thanks19:34
bethlynn1one more point about "It can't do X" before I more on19:35
bethlynn1Setting relistic expecations for those new to Linux before they see it is important19:35
bethlynn1Shawn Powers discussed this at his Ohio LinuxFest 2009 keynote19:36
bethlynn1People, at least Americans,19:36
bethlynn1have a negative idea of what "free" really gets you19:36
bethlynn1If you tell people the bad news up front then you make the experience of when the get to the keyboard up to the software to prove itself19:37
bethlynn1For example,19:38
bethlynn1if I was suggesting Linux for someone who does US Tax preparation19:38
bethlynn1I would tell that person that the shirkwrapped software that is bought in the electronic store is likely not to work19:39
bethlynn1then I would see if there is a webbased alternative19:39
bethlynn1and if alternatives would be acceptable to the user19:40
bethlynn1What I have seen,19:40
bethlynn1when I give a person a Linux computer, they are actually quite happy about the experience19:40
bethlynn1and it strengthens relationships19:41
bethlynn1because you start with the relationships of what you already have19:41
bethlynn1and what you already have in common19:41
bethlynn1if there are people who look like you19:41
bethlynn1and talk like you19:41
bethlynn1who are using a product19:41
bethlynn1it gives a great deal of ligitamacy19:42
bethlynn1this is why it is important for diversity19:42
bethlynn1I spend the majority of my time when I give a computer away to women19:42
bethlynn1because I am a woman19:42
bethlynn1I do tell men about how great Linux and free software is too19:43
bethlynn1but it is easier for me to speak the language for a woman to another woman19:44
bethlynn1than a man to a woman or vice versa19:44
bethlynn1there are other diversity groups19:44
bethlynn1that I can't discuss here, out of interest of time19:44
bethlynn1but the quick answer is to start in the neighborhoods you already work in19:45
bethlynn1and network with your friends there19:45
bethlynn1the Zareason folks use the phrase "Friends help Friends use Linux"19:45
bethlynn1good stuff19:45
bethlynn1Now19:45
bethlynn1since I only have 15 minutes left19:46
bethlynn1I will discuss where Microsoft has majority marketshare19:46
bethlynn1I have been blogging on whatwillweuse.com with maco since July 200919:46
bethlynn1abut where Micorosoft has market share19:46
bethlynn1and it's status19:47
bethlynn1through this discussion, there are only three places where we have found that Microsoft can make the claim19:47
bethlynn11. Operating system19:47
bethlynn12. Browser19:47
bethlynn13. Office Suite19:47
bethlynn1Installing Ubuntu instead of Windows resolves the desktop operating system issue19:48
bethlynn1to be absolutely clear19:48
bethlynn1Microsoft only has majoroty market share in the desktop operating system area19:48
bethlynn1not in servers19:49
bethlynn1not in high performance computing19:49
bethlynn1not in embedded19:49
bethlynn1not in voip19:49
bethlynn1not in smart phones19:49
bethlynn1the only operating system space they have left is the desktop19:49
bethlynn12. Browser19:49
bethlynn1There are three versions that are still in use:19:50
bethlynn1IE 6, 7, 819:50
bethlynn1Microsoft refuses to support IE6, in fact many web devs want IE6 to go away because it has not been patched for eons19:50
bethlynn1if you include IE6, Microsoft only has 52% market share19:51
bethlynn1if you exclude IE6, they don't have any where need significant market shere there19:51
bethlynn1Therefore, help your neighbor, especially if you see them using IE6 by installing firefox on their current operating system19:52
bethlynn1don't be so focused on getting them on to Linux19:52
bethlynn1becaue firefox is such a quick fix19:52
bethlynn1that will help us get some momentum in squashing this bug19:53
bethlynn1now Office Suites19:53
bethlynn1Microsoft Office 2007 is an unpopular product19:53
bethlynn1no one likes the ribbobn19:53
bethlynn1and it introduces the .docx extention19:54
bethlynn1which unpatched legacy versions of Microsoft Office can not  open19:54
bethlynn1moreover, there are US patent concerns specific to MS Word 200719:54
bethlynn1Microsoft will not change way MS Word operates in MS Office 201019:55
bethlynn1they aren't getting rid of the ribbon or the .docx19:55
bethlynn1this will make their users very frustrated19:56
bethlynn1therefore19:56
bethlynn1install Open Office19:56
bethlynn1on whatever opperating system they use right now19:56
bethlynn1it has a much more familar interface19:56
bethlynn1its free19:56
bethlynn1and people can stilll open and edit their .doc19:56
bethlynn1and there are great strides in .docx compability19:57
bethlynn1I see I must wrap this up19:57
bethlynn1If you are interested in Microsoft's market share19:57
bethlynn1come join us on the conversation on http://whatwillweuse.com19:57
bethlynn1I will be on #whatwillweuse on this server for about 2 hours after this talk too for questions19:58
jcastrowow thanks alot bethlynn1!19:59
bethlynn1There is a comparison to a Gandhi quote as to how we should work with Microsoft19:59
jcastrohard to believe this is your first session for openweek ever!19:59
bethlynn11. They mock you19:59
akgranerawesome... bethlynn1 !!19:59
bethlynn1oops19:59
bethlynn11. They mock you19:59
bethlynn12. They mock you19:59
bethlynn13. They fight you19:59
bethlynn14. You win20:00
bethlynn1but how do we get past 3? Use another Gandhi quote.... be the change in the world that you seek.... Thank you very much20:01
=== akgraner changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session: Introduction to the Ubuntu Documentation Project - MatthewEast || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
akgranerNext up is Matthew East with Ubuntu Documentation20:03
akgranermdke, you ready to take the stage20:03
mdkeyep20:03
mdkethanks akgraner20:03
akgranertake it away...20:03
mdkeright let's get cracking!20:03
mdkeI'm here to talk about the Ubuntu Documentation Project20:03
mdkeIt's an excellent way for newcomers to the community to get involved in Ubuntu20:04
mdkebecause it doesn't require substantial technical skills - just the ability to write reasonable English and a willingness to help20:04
mdkewhat I'm going to do today is a whistestop tour through the documentation team, just as an introduction20:05
mdkethen, we'll run some more detailed sessions for people interested in contributing next week20:05
mdkestay tuned here for the details of that, I'll announce them at the end20:06
mdkeright, an intro to the team20:06
mdkeThe documentation team is completely made up of volunteers. The core team is https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-doc but many others contribute to documentation all the time. To find out how to communicate with us, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contact20:06
mdkeWe have a mailing list and hang out on irc at #ubuntu-doc20:06
mdkeThere are essentially two types of documentation that the team produces. The ultimate reference page for any information is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam20:07
mdke   1. System documentation - this is written in a markup language called Docbook XML, and is hosted in our repository.20:07
mdke(That's the documentation that you see when you click on System->Help and Support on your Ubuntu system20:07
mdkeor click the question mark button on the panel)20:08
mdke   2. Online documentation - composed of an html version of 1., and a community driven wiki (https://help.ubuntu.com/community)20:08
mdkeI’ll discuss each in turn. I'm going to start with the community driven wiki first, because that is the easiest place for new contributors to get started with documentation.20:08
mdke= Wiki Documentation =20:08
mdkeThe wiki is found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community. As with wikipedia, it is a collaborative resource which is free to anyone to edit.20:09
mdkeThis provides a resource for users to search for help when they come across those unusual problems that baffle us all occasionally20:09
mdkeThe most basic way to contribute is simply to correct errors that you find in any particular document.20:09
mdkeThere are plenty! It's a huge resource, and not all of the pages are perfect by any means20:10
mdkeThis is really easy to do: the first step is to log into the wiki (using your launchpad account)20:10
mdkeYou do this by visiting https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ and then clicking on the "Login to Edit" link in the top right hand corner. Wait a few moments and you are taken to a Launchpad login page. Just click, "Sign In", and you're logged into the wiki.20:10
mdkeFeel free to try it now!20:10
mdkeNext, you visit the page you want to edit, say for example https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/SystemRequirements. You then bring up the edit box, by clicking "Show Editing Options" in the bottom right hand corner. That gives you the various options that you have, including to edit the page.20:11
mdkeThe wiki is written in a simple markup language, which allows us to create basic formatting such as section titles and links.20:11
mdkeWikipedia has the same, but the markup used is slightly different20:12
mdkeThe wiki markup is very simple. It's easy to get to understand how it works. You can either read the markup of existing pages (by clicking "More Actions" -> "Raw Text" in the edit bar) or you can read through our guides to the wiki.20:12
mdkeThe most important guide to read for anyone working on the wiki is the WikiGuide, found here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide.20:13
mdkeThe WikiGuide is the basic reference point whenever you want to find out how to do something as a wiki editor. It also gives you guidance about our standard practices20:14
mdkeI hope that it's easy to understand - but if anything isn't clear feel free to let us know by posting to our mailing list20:15
mdkeWe're always eager to improve our own documentation :)20:15
mdkeOnce you are familiar with the wiki, the next step is to figure out how you can help. Obviously, you can review existing pages that you are interested in or happen to come across, but you may want some guidance about specific tasks.20:15
mdkeOur basic task list is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki/Tasks. The Ubuntu Beginners Team also has a task list for their "Wiki Focus Group", which works closely with the Documentation Team, here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Beginners/Development20:16
mdkeA great way to find pages that need work is by using the tag system. We have a number of different tags that we apply to pages that need different types of attention.20:17
mdkeYou can read about the different tags and how to use them here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag.20:17
mdkeThe different tags are: Unsupported Version, Content cleanup required, Style cleanup required, Needs Expansion, Page too long, Candidate for moving, Candidate for deletion, Duplicate article.20:18
mdkeGreat tags for finding pages that need work are the first five of those. These are pages that are outdated, unclear, too short, or too long.20:18
mdkeYou can find the list of pages with a particular tag by visiting https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag, going to the relevant tag, and clicking on "List of pages with this tag".20:19
mdkeThen, you just pick a page, and start working on improving it! Feel free to get in touch with the team on the mailing list to let them know the work that you are doing on any particular page, and to seek advice if you need it.20:20
mdkeIf you come across a page that you think needs improving, and it doesn't have a tag, you can add one using the instructions on the "Tag" page20:20
mdkeRight now we have a *lot* of tagged pages, so there is plenty of work to do!20:21
mdkeOk, that in a nutshell is the community help wiki. I'd encourage anyone interested in helping out with documentation to check it out, and in particular to start with this page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide20:21
mdkeThis might be a good moment to take a break for questions20:22
mdkeIf anyone has any questions about the wiki, feel free to ask them now in #ubuntu-classroom-chat20:22
mdke20:24:01 < saji> Hey What is the difference between https://help.ubuntu.com/community and wiki.ubuntu.com?20:24
mdkeexcellent question!20:24
mdkeBoth of these sites are wikis, so they are collaborative resources which are free for anyone to edit20:24
mdkethe key distinction is that https://help.ubuntu.com/community is only for documentation20:24
mdkeand wiki.ubuntu.com is only for team organisation and planning20:25
mdkeso you can see help.ubuntu.com as a site for users, and wiki.ubuntu.com as a site for contributors to Ubuntu20:25
akgraner<dhillon-v10> QUESTION: mdke, now that you are here, me and Phil were talking about this: how do we go about getting a survey of people20:26
mdkejust a followup on the previous question20:26
mdkesaji has pointed out that there are some help documents on wiki.ubuntu.com20:26
mdkeThe simple answer is that these are there by mistake, and should be moved20:27
mdkeIf you see a document for users on wiki.ubuntu.com, it can be reported by adding the word "CategoryDocumentation" at the bottom of the page20:27
mdkethat will add it to the list to be moved20:27
mdkeok, to address dhillon-v10's question20:28
mdkeat the moment we don't have much feedback from users about how helpful our website or help pages are20:28
mdkeI personally think that there should be a way for a user to report easily possible errors or complaints about wiki pages, without having to file a bug report, just by clicking on a button on the page20:29
mdkeit could even be a short survey embedded into the page20:29
mdkebut we haven't discussed this as a team properly, and I'd encourage dhillon-v10 to post to the mailing list about it for a full discussion and brainstorming session20:29
mdkeQUESTION: 20:30:21 < saji> mdke, where will the pages relating to troubleshooting come under?20:30
mdkeA page which involves troubleshooting a piece of software to help a user will generally be for help.ubuntu.com20:31
mdkesometimes there are borderline cases, we don't always get the distinction right, but we try!20:32
mdkeRight, I'm going to move on to discussing the second type of documentation that we have now20:33
mdke= System Documentation =20:33
mdkeThe System documentation is the documentation that is included by default with every Ubuntu system20:34
mdkeIt appears in the menu at System->Help and Support, or by clicking on the blue question mark in the top panel20:34
mdkeBecause this documentation is included with every Ubuntu system, we run a stricter system of quality control20:34
mdkeit's not open to everyone to edit like the wiki is20:35
mdkeBut, it's still easy to contribute!20:35
mdkeAs usual, the starting place to learn how to contribute is our team wiki page, at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam20:35
mdkeIn particular: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation20:35
mdkeTo prove that it's easy to learn how to contribute to system documentation, take myself as an example20:36
mdkeI don't have any technical computing training, I'm not a computer scientist. However, I got interested in ubuntu documentation, and found that I'd pretty quickly learned the ropes to make basic contributions20:36
mdkeGradually, you get more experienced, and eventually you are completely comfortable contributing, and may be granted full access to edit the documentation20:37
mdkeSo let's take a closer look at how the system documentation works20:37
mdkeAgain, it's written in a markup language. But the markup is more complicated. It's called Docbook XML20:38
mdkeIt's a markup language quite similar to HTML, which webpages are written in, so some of you may be familiar with that20:38
mdkeAs before, the best way to get to know it is to read some existing documents and to read our guides20:39
mdkeOur guides on Docbook XML start here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Editing20:39
mdkeAs for reading some existing documents, first we need to download the repository of the documents20:39
mdkeThe documents are stored in a version control repository which anyone can download. the version control system used is BZR20:40
mdkeMost of the Ubuntu community uses BZR to store its code20:40
mdkebzr is pretty easy to learn20:41
mdkeI don't have time to go into it in too much detail in the time we have, unfortunately20:41
mdkeEssentially there are a few commands which we use to do just about everything we need20:41
mdke"bzr branch" is the command to download the documents.20:41
mdkeA detailed guide to getting the documents and using bzr can be found here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository20:42
mdkeOne of the key things to notice is that we have quite a lot of different bzr "branches" that can be downloaded20:42
mdkeit's important to get the right one20:42
mdkeThe list of all of our branches is here: https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc-project20:43
mdkeThe main ones for ubuntu-docs, kubuntu-docs, xubuntu-docs and edubuntu-docs have a star by them20:43
mdkeso to get the ubuntu-docs branch, you would run "bzr branch lp:ubuntu-docs"20:43
mdkeIf you run into any problems having read the guide at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Repository, feel free to ask the team for help20:44
mdkeAgain, finding tasks can be one of the thing that newcomers find difficult20:45
mdkeWe keep a list of tasks here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks20:45
mdkethe first thing you can do is simply to read the system documentation and point out errors (mistakes, typos, etc)20:45
mdkeYou can point them out by filing bug reports in Launchpad, just as you do with any Ubuntu project20:45
mdkeAlternatively, you can try and submit a fix for them yourself20:46
mdkeWe have a "quick guide" to doing that - our playbook - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=BugsPlaybook.pdf20:46
mdkeThat explains how to fix a bug in a few quick and easy steps20:46
mdkeOnce you are familiar with our processes, you can find some more chunky tasks by visiting the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks page20:47
mdkeThat has links to existing bug reports for our projects, and suggestions for new documents20:47
mdkeIf you aren't comfortable with our markup yet, you can submit material as plain text, and we will convert it into Docbook XML - any contribution is valued20:48
mdkeThat is a (very fast) overview of System Documentation - I know that there will be plenty of things to develop further, and that's part of the point in having some further sessions next week20:48
mdkeThe sessions are going to be as follows:20:49
mdkeGood Preparation when Writing Documentation - AugustinaBlair20:49
mdkeAugustina is a new contributor to the team who wrote the help document for USB Startup Disk Creator20:49
mdkeShe did a great job with that and the secret was planning it very well - so she's going to share some thoughts on planning documentation with us20:50
mdkeThe second session is:20:50
mdkeProject Mallard - Writing Documentation in XML - PhilBull20:50
mdkePhil is a longterm contributor to the team, and he will explain in much more detail how to understand the XML markup20:50
mdkeHe'll introduce a different type of XML markup which is being developed at the moment by the Gnome documentation team - Project Mallard20:50
mdkethe sessions will be run on:20:51
mdke11 November 2009 at 5pm UTC - in #ubuntu-doc20:51
mdkeIf there is a bit of demand, perhaps we can persuade Augustina and Phil to run the sessions again in the future :)20:51
mdkeBefore taking a couple of questions, I'd just like to mention translation as a great way of contributing to Ubuntu Documentation20:51
mdkeOur documentation is translated into tens and tens of languages by the faithful ubuntu translation teams20:52
mdkethey do an awesome job, but can always do with help!20:52
mdkeHave a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation if you are interested in translating documentation20:52
mdkeok, time for a couple of questions20:53
mdke20:35:57 < airurando> QUESTION: What, if any, are the collaborative links between Ubuntu Documentation and Ubuntu Learning?20:53
mdkeairurando: At the moment, I'm not too familiar with what the ubuntu Learning project is doing in terms of user teaching. I know that they have developed a project in that area, and we have discussed collaboration at length, but it's still in early stages20:54
mdkeI haven't been in touch with the learning team recently about this so I am a little out of touch20:55
mdkeSorry that I can't answer your question more fully but I'd be happy to followup by email with the learning team about collaborating20:55
mdke20:38:24 < duanedesign> QUESTION: Are there any tools you recommend for working with DocBook XML, like XML Mind?20:55
mdkeI have personally tried bluefish, and it was quite good20:56
mdkebut I didn't try it very extensively, because I found it easy to use a simple text editor for working with docbook XML20:56
mdkeFor example gedit (the default Gnome text editor) is quite good because it hilights the relevant tags that are used20:56
mdkeAgain, I know that's not a great answer :) Other Documentation Team members might have better suggestions20:57
mdkeFeel free to post to the mailing list about that!20:57
mdke20:49:06 < saji> Question:How can plaintext contributions be made?20:57
mdkePlain text contributions can be attached or pasted into bug reports, or sent to the mailing list20:57
mdkeWe probably prefer bug reports, as they can't get lost20:58
mdkeBut either is fine20:58
mdkeI think we're just about finished on timing, so I'll call a close and thank everyone for their attention20:59
mdkeThanks and look forward to seeing you on the ubuntu-doc mailing list and #ubuntu-doc20:59
mdkeakgraner: over to you!20:59
akgranermdke, Thank you so much...20:59
akgranerAWESOME session!!20:59
akgranerUp next is Ken VanDine..21:00
kenvandinehello everyone21:00
akgranertake it away...21:00
kenvandineok, lets kick it off21:00
=== akgraner changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session: Introducing the Telepathy Stack - Ken Vandine || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
kenvandineWe're here to talk about Telepathy, a real-time communications framework21:01
kenvandineLet me start out by saying this session is planned to be about the Telepathy real-time communications framework, not about instant messenger preferences.21:01
kenvandineLet me address that before we really get started.21:01
kenvandineEmpathy vs. Pidgin, Pidgin is a fine IM client and I don't think anyone has anything against it.21:02
kenvandineA number of people have complained about the change of default IM client in Karmic, let me address that quickly.21:02
kenvandineThe choice wasn't exactly "Which IM client do we want in Karmic?"  It was more about the Telepathy framework and the possibilities it brings to the desktop.21:03
kenvandineWe have been watching telepathy for quite some time, and we feel it has matured enough that it is time to start to leverage it on the desktop.21:03
kenvandineOf course we aren't doing anything to prevent people from using Pidgin if they choose, but Ubuntu's default is Empathy which utilizes the telepathy framework.21:04
kenvandineNow lets talk about telepathy, what it is and why it rocks!21:04
kenvandineFor a little background I will paste a few links along the way for you to skim over now or read later.21:05
kenvandineTelepathy - http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/21:05
kenvandinereal-time communications framework21:06
kenvandine for example instant messaging, voice and video chats, collaborative editing, etc21:06
kenvandinemodular design, for example adding protocol support is really just installing another backend (like a plugin).21:06
kenvandineeach of these backends run independently, if one crashes it doesn't crash everything else and it should just restart automatically21:07
kenvandinemaking it rather robust21:07
kenvandineEasily integratable, we'll talk more about that later21:07
kenvandinefor the rationale behind Telepathy, http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/Rationale21:09
kenvandinealso for a system overview, explaining all the components and how they work together21:10
kenvandinehttp://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/System%20Overview21:10
kenvandineis a good read21:10
kenvandinebasically there is mission-control which acts as a dispatcher between clients and backends21:10
kenvandinebackends advertise their capabilities, etc and mission-control handles hooking everyone up21:11
kenvandineso empathy as a client, wants to create a video chat with a jabber contact, mission-control creates that channel to the telepathy-gabble (jabber) backend and begins creating the streaming channels21:12
kenvandineetc21:12
kenvandinenext up is my favorite part, Tubes21:12
kenvandineTelepathy Tubes is a mechanism for supporting arbitrary data transfer and remote IPC21:13
kenvandinethis allows telepathy to send data21:14
kenvandineand other methods of communication with an application on the other end (remote)21:14
kenvandineTubes support both in band (stream through a jabber server) and out of band which talks directly to the remote contact.21:14
kenvandinesome examples of how these are used, or will be used today21:15
kenvandineVino and Vinagre - VNC server and client which supports streaming over telepathy tubes21:15
kenvandineyou can use this today in Karmic21:15
kenvandineScreencast showing offering side http://people.collabora.co.uk/~cassidy/blog/vnc-tube-offer.ogv21:15
kenvandineScreencast showing accepting side http://people.collabora.co.uk/~cassidy/blog/vnc-tube-accept.ogv21:15
kenvandinethose screencasts show both ends of a VNC session21:16
kenvandinebasically in your empathy buddy list, you can select a friend and "Share your desktop" with them21:16
kenvandinetelepathy negotiates the transport to do that21:16
kenvandinewhich makes it operate well behind a NAT, home router, etc21:17
kenvandinewhich has always been a limitation21:17
kenvandineQUESTION: is that protocol dependent?21:17
kenvandineyes it is21:17
kenvandineit requires xmpp (jabber)21:17
kenvandinei am not sure if it can work over other protocols, but xmpp is much more extensible21:18
kenvandineso that is a great example of tubes that you can use today in Karmic21:18
kenvandinesome other works in progress21:18
kenvandineBanshee21:18
kenvandineBrowse your friends music and music metadata21:18
kenvandineDownload, stream and see what your friends are playing (if they allow it)21:19
kenvandinehttp://nlokos.blogspot.com/2009/08/crossing-finish-line.html21:19
kenvandineit was a google summer of code project21:19
kenvandinevery impressive stuff, not really ready for everyday use but it will get there soon21:19
kenvandineRhythmbox21:19
kenvandinethere is work to enable sharing music with IM contacts21:20
kenvandinei don't have a link for that, it seems splintered at the moment between a couple git repositories21:20
kenvandineGtetrinet21:20
kenvandinethere is a patch for Gtetrinet to play tetris with your friends via tubes21:20
kenvandinehttp://cass.no-ip.com/~cassidy/blog/index.php/post/2007/10/21/GTetrinet-through-tubes21:20
kenvandinethe site appears to be down, perhaps the link will work again at some point :)21:21
kenvandinei think it was up earlier this week, so hopefully only temporary21:21
kenvandineGNOME Games, sudoku21:21
kenvandinealso a google summer of code project21:21
kenvandinecollaborate or compete with friends21:21
kenvandinehttp://blog.zhangsen.org/2009/08/gsoc-final.html21:21
kenvandinei think that work is proposed for merging into gnome for 2.3021:22
kenvandineand there is talk about replacing ggz (gnome game zone i think) with telepathy based services21:22
kenvandinei don't think ggz has ever been used much21:22
kenvandineTic Tac Toe (work in progress)21:23
kenvandinesimple tic tac toe game with your friends21:23
kenvandinehttps://edge.launchpad.net/tictactoe21:23
kenvandinethose are some samples i found to give everyone a basic idea21:23
kenvandinei would love to see a f-spot extension that lets you share/view your friends photos21:24
kenvandinethere are many possibilities21:25
kenvandineQUESTION:  Is the VNC with Empathy secure.  VNC  needs to be tunneled over SSH for example to make it secure when using over The Internet.21:25
kenvandineI don't know what kind of encryption is used, if any21:26
kenvandineit is really piping vino/vinagre connection over jabber21:26
kenvandinewhich is likely using ssl21:26
kenvandinedepending on your configuration21:26
kenvandinei can't answer if there is anything more done than that21:26
kenvandinethat last question was from sebsebseb21:27
akgraner<Chopinhauer> QUESTION: While talking about games. Have you considered Telepathy integration with the Volity framework?21:28
kenvandineI haven't heard about Volity, might be something nice to consider21:28
kenvandinenext21:29
akgraner<Jesi> Question: are there any reasons why you might have to use another means to have a remote desktop session (at least with Linux/Ubuntu) or do you see Telepathy replacing older methods?21:29
kenvandinenot sure about replacing other methods21:29
kenvandinebut it definately adds convenience21:29
kenvandinefor example, i used to have my mother's computer login to my openvpn server at home so i could have a connection out to her machine behind her router21:30
kenvandineso i could ssh in if needed21:30
kenvandinenow i can just ask her to share her desktop with me if she has any problems (fortunately that never happens) :)21:30
kenvandineit greatly simplifies the networking situation if it is needed21:30
kenvandineand a good proof point for what telepathy can do21:31
kenvandinenext21:31
akgranernone right now21:31
kenvandineah... no more questions yet21:31
kenvandineanyone else?21:31
kenvandineor ideas for more applications to utilize telepathy?21:31
kenvandinewe will be discussing it quite a bit at UDS for Lucid21:32
akgraner<IdleOne> QUESTION: facebook chat???21:32
kenvandineI would love to have lots of ideas going into some discussions21:32
kenvandineah... that is easy :)21:32
kenvandinefacebook chat will be xmpp soon21:32
kenvandineit works today with the pidgin-facebookchat plugin21:32
kenvandineone of the backends for telepathy is called haze21:33
kenvandinewhich is an interface to the protocols supported by libpurple (pidgin)21:33
kenvandineso if you install telepathy-haze and pidgin-facebookchat it will almost work21:33
kenvandineyou need to actually delete a file :)21:33
kenvandinebut none of that will be needed when facebook opens up the jabber service21:34
kenvandinenext21:34
akgranergQuigs1> QUESTION - it would be possible to use pidgin as a frontend to telepathy (and then going through telepathy) to libpurple?  (yes I miss my pidgin plugins)21:34
kenvandinesure, if someone hacked pidgin to be a telepathy client21:35
kenvandinenext21:35
akgraner<johanbr> QUESTION: Telepathy audio/video still seems a bit unstable. What's being done to address that for Lucid (or later)?21:35
kenvandinewe are doing what we can there21:35
kenvandineit seems pretty stable if both ends have UPnP enabled, and UPnP is fairly reliable on the routers21:36
kenvandinemost of the voice/video problems are failures to negotiate UPnP with the router21:36
kenvandinealthough, it will work without upnp21:36
kenvandinebut for video, it opens two streams21:36
kenvandineand that seems to be a little more problematic21:37
kenvandinealthough i haven't seen a single voice only call failure in weeks21:37
kenvandinewhich has been great :)21:37
kenvandinesome stuff we want to address in Lucid is the workflow used for answering calls21:37
kenvandinemake that simpler and more discoverable21:37
kenvandinealso we have talked to the upstream telepathy developers about working with them to create a diagnostics type of interface21:38
kenvandineso embedded into the call window there might be a button that lets you check for common problems and help guide you toward fixing them21:38
kenvandinefor example checking to see if you have UPnP enabled21:38
kenvandineetc21:38
kenvandineperhaps sound configuration, things like that21:39
kenvandinenext21:39
akgraner<Jesi> Question: Is there work on providing Telepathy support for Windows? I know this is not a windows discussion, but it would be great to use Telepathy for remote desktop and music browsing of my friends not using Linux, and I wouldn't always have to go to their house to fix their computer21:39
kenvandinehehe21:39
kenvandinethere are instructions on the telepathy website for compiling telepathy on windows21:40
kenvandinei don't know how well it works21:40
kenvandinebut21:40
kenvandineeven if you had it running on windows, the applications would need to be there too21:40
kenvandinefor example, banshee expects the other end to be banshee21:40
kenvandinebecause the client and remote end are actually talking to each other21:40
kenvandinenext21:40
akgraner<Chopinhauer> QUESTION: Meta-contacts in Empathy (or maybe better Telepathy) would be nice. Would they be available in Lucid? Having multiple buddies for the same person is a little annoying.21:40
kenvandineshort answer is yes21:41
kenvandineit is on the roadmap for gnome 2.30 (i think)21:41
kenvandineeven if it isn't on their roadmap, i think they have other features that depend on it21:41
kenvandineso i am pretty confident in saying we will have that for Lucid21:41
kenvandinenext21:42
akgranernot one yet but I have one to ask typing it now21:43
akgranerakgraner> Question: I was using empathy to see someones computer today but if I moved my mouse it all to check on things not in that widow it messed up what the other person was doing.  How can I use it but still work on the other stuff on my desktop with messing up the other screen?  make sense21:43
kenvandineah21:44
kenvandinethat is remote control, which is usually what you want21:44
kenvandinefor example there is only one mouse pointer and one keyboard cursor21:44
kenvandinebut two people are controlling it21:44
kenvandineit isn't the same as multiple users logged in21:44
kenvandineanymore questions?21:45
akgranermaybe getting clarification21:46
akgraner<jordi1983> I'd like to know when there will be LCS (Microsoft Network Communicator) support on Empathy, now it is provided by pidgin-sipe plugin but it doesn't work through telepathy-haze.21:46
kenvandinesorry, i can't really answer that21:47
kenvandinei would think it should work through haze21:47
kenvandineis there a bug filed against telepathy-haze?21:47
kenvandineif not, please do21:47
kenvandinenext21:47
akgraner<Jesi> Question: it should be possible to use Telepathy to sync the calender on multiple machines..... as well as say your Evolution or Thunderbird mailbox, correct? or would something else like U1 be better?21:47
kenvandinehumm..21:48
kenvandinewell telepathy is designed for real-time communications21:48
kenvandinethings like calendar sync are pretty well defined already21:48
kenvandinehowever21:48
kenvandineif, for example, evolution added a feature to show calendar events, or other "right now" kind of things21:49
kenvandinethat could be kind of cool21:49
kenvandineclick on a calendar entry, share with contact and it sends to one of your friends in your buddy list21:49
kenvandinecould also be used for selecting/scheduling meetings and such21:49
kenvandineso it is possible, but someone would need to write it :)21:50
kenvandinemail probably not so well suited21:50
kenvandineany more questions?21:50
akgranernope not yet21:50
akgranerone more21:50
akgranerone sec21:51
akgraner<sebsebseb> QUESTION:  If  I am correct one of the reasons Empathy replaced Pidgin is, because it's an upstream Gnome app, that also had web cam support unlike Pidgin?21:52
kenvandinehumm...21:52
kenvandinenot really21:52
kenvandineit was desirable that it was on the same release schedule as gnome21:52
kenvandineand so well integrated in gnome21:52
kenvandinethose were definately good points in favor of empathy21:53
kenvandinebut i really think the driver was the advanced nature of the telepathy framework21:53
kenvandinepidgin doesn't really give us the future we want as a desktop21:53
kenvandineespecial now that everything has become so social and well connected21:53
kenvandinepidgin is a messenger, that's it21:54
kenvandineand it does that well21:54
kenvandinebeen around forever and has a ton of plugins21:54
kenvandinebut it doesn't really embrace where we want to be as a desktop21:54
kenvandinetelepathy really does that21:54
kenvandineand empathy is by far the most mature client for it, and actually a very nice instant messenger21:55
kenvandineit does it's job quite well21:55
kenvandinenext21:55
akgraner<Jesi> I meant more about keeping my calender and mailbox the same between my laptop and desktop, any ideas ?21:55
kenvandineah, that isn't a good use of telepathy21:56
kenvandinetelepathy is between you and your contacts21:56
kenvandineu1 would be a better fit for that21:56
kenvandineor using an existing service like gmail, etc21:56
kenvandineevolution has pretty nice support for google calendars now21:56
kenvandinenext21:56
akgraner<jbicha> QUESTION: supposedly, we can use Pidgin protocols in Empathy, but I don't see an option to add either Facebook or Twitter/Identica, what do I need to do?21:56
kenvandinefacebook isn't available in pidgin by default, you have to install a plugin21:57
kenvandinepidgin-facebookchat21:57
kenvandineand do a little google search for how to make it work with empathy21:57
kenvandineyou have to remove a file from telepathy-haze21:58
kenvandinethen it woks quite nicely21:58
kenvandinewell as good as it does in pidgin :)21:58
kenvandinenot sure about twitter/identi.ca21:58
kenvandinenext21:58
akgraner<AlanBell> QUESTION: IRC is very important to the Ubuntu community (evidenced by the fact we are here) is telepathy-irc up to the job of being Ubuntu default IRC client for a new user?21:58
kenvandinewell telepathy-idle is the irc backend21:58
kenvandineit works... most irc commands don't work though21:59
kenvandineso rather limited21:59
kenvandinebut if you only use the UI, it works fine for most people21:59
kenvandinehowever, imho pidgin was never a good irc client either21:59
kenvandineirc in empathy will be improved in 2.3021:59
kenvandinenext21:59
kenvandinewe need to start wrapping up22:00
akgraner<jordi1983> question: Which are the plans for Empathy integration in Gnome-shell and Gnome 3 in general? Is there something worth noting?22:00
akgranerthat has to be the last question.. we are out of time...:-)22:00
kenvandinegreat22:00
kenvandineone more thing22:00
kenvandinehttp://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/FAQ22:00
kenvandinethat's it... thanks!22:01
akgranerThanks Ken22:01
jcastrowoo thanks ken!22:01
jcastrook everyone22:01
jcastrothat's a wrap on OpenWeek for Karmic22:01
jcastrobefore I hold the feedback session22:01
jcastroI'd like to thank everyone who helped out22:01
jcastroausimage, akgraner especially!22:02
=== akgraner changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (changes made, please check regularly) || Session: Feedback and Ideas for next time - JorgeCastro || All questions go in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
jcastrook22:02
jcastroI've unmodded the channel22:02
czajkowskiwhooooo22:02
akgranerYAY!!22:02
jcastrohow did you enjoy openweek!22:02
AlanBellit was great!22:03
jcastrowow that good?!22:03
jcastroheh22:03
egyni only participated this last session, my first session ever anyway. what a great event!22:03
egynsad to miss the rest..22:03
jcastroany recommendations or things we could do better?22:03
openweek3_egyn: same here22:03
jcastrowell, we do have logs of all the sessions22:03
jcastrosee the wiki page in the topic22:03
jcastrothanks to ausimage for doing the logs!22:04
egynjcastro: yea i saw that, very good, reading up on how to develop rightr now22:04
Jesiit was excellant, I just wish we had more time for comments22:04
Jesiand questions22:04
AlanBellthere were a load of people arriving with the openweekx nick who hadn't been directed to the schedule and were a bit confused on arrival22:04
AlanBellasking offtopic support questions in -chat22:04
jcastroAlanBell, the topic links them to the wiki page22:04
AlanBelland confusing people because they were all called openweekx22:05
egynfuture open weeks might be held in multiple rooms, like in the case of regular IRL conferences22:05
jcastrohowever I felt having the web interface was important for people who don't know anything about IRC22:05
IdleOnejcastro: we all know how everybody reads /topic :)22:05
AlanBellI think the web interface is great22:05
jcastroso people who came from the web interface were openweek1, etc.22:05
AlanBelljcastro: yes, becase the nick was part of the URL22:05
jbichaexcept it was worse, openweek7____22:05
gQuigs1can we ever do something easier about time zones, like autoadjust to the users to show what's up next...?22:06
Jesiin multiple rooms? but then we'd have to choose which one to attend :(22:06
jcastrojbicha, yeah, unfortunately the more people join the crazier it gets22:06
jcastromaybe we can improve that22:06
jcastrogQuigs1, someone suggested a bot earlier22:06
Jesiwell if we emphasize that UTC is GMT that might help22:06
jcastroand also to help with questions22:06
AlanBellI think having the auto-nick was a bad thing because people didn't appreciate that they were all separate people22:06
jcastroAlanBell, the webui does prompt people to put in a normal nick if they want22:07
jcastroI don't know how many people did that though22:07
jbichawhat about if one day would be live video instead of just plaintext chat?22:07
jcastrothought about that22:07
jcastrothe work required would be way way more than it is now22:07
* gQuigs1 wonders how if it's possible to do javascript in a wiki page...22:07
jcastroit's been tough just to pull off text22:07
AlanBelljcastro: no, http://webchat.freenode.net/?nick=openweek.&channels=ubuntu-classroom%2Cubuntu-classroom-chat22:07
JesiI noticed that because I didn't have voice in this channel, I couldn't change my nick in any channel, for some reason and got stuck as Jesi-Idle22:08
erUSULjbicha: video ? that will consume a lot of bandwith for little gain imho22:08
AlanBellit asks you if you want to connect as openweek0 and gives you a connect button, nothing else22:08
Jesiso if people get stuck as openweekX .....not good22:08
jcastroAlanBell, aaaaah, ok, I'll note that22:08
jcastrodid you like the variety of the sessions?22:09
AlanBella nice dedicated web based split screen UI would be good.22:09
jbichaerUSUL: probably so, and may make the session less useful, but it's more fun22:09
jcastroand the presenters?22:09
AlanBellthe sessions were great22:09
Jesias for video, if IRC did video chat.....22:09
=== Ursinha-afk is now known as Ursinha
AlanBellthe presenters were all well prepared and responsive to questions22:09
erUSULjcastro: as allways ones a liked more than others ;)22:10
jcastrowe tried to get new presenters in22:10
akgranerI liked how many new presenters there were...great to see more people getting involved22:10
jcastroas well as old favorites22:10
jcastrodo you think the sessions were too techy? Not techy enough?22:10
jcastroor do you like a blend?22:10
dscasselIf video's logistically hard, how about audio? More people have phones than webcams...22:10
AlanBellblend is good22:11
jcastro(please note that Developer Week is the intended hardcore week)22:11
openweek3_i think it was nicely balanced, I thought the telepathy one would be more technical but thankfully it wasnt. The examples of implementations helped a lot22:11
akgranerjcastro, would a survey  like survey monkey link off the wiki be helpful for feed back at all?22:11
jcastrosure22:11
jcastroakgraner, perhaps next time we should have a survey done before hand22:11
egynjcastro: (i only attended the last session) did you have extra time where presenters could rearrive in a later hour and talk more in detail?22:11
dscasselI thought the blend was good.22:11
jcastrofor people in the beginning of the week22:12
jcastroakgraner, good idea though22:12
akgraneryeah I mean for next time sorry22:12
egynopenweek3_: I agree22:12
jcastroegyn, we always allow people to run sessions out of band if they want22:12
erUSULjcastro: i felt that the one about kvm/libvirt was not technical enough. an hour was not enough it seems22:12
jcastroright22:12
ghostmanmimimi22:12
jcastrosome tech stuff will always take longer22:12
jcastrohowever we've tried longer sessions in the past22:13
jcastroand they just get brutal for everyone22:13
jcastroso if an hour session can wet your appetite enough to get you to join the virt channel or whatever then I consider that a success22:13
jcastroideally a presenter should be flooded in their channel afterwards with questions22:13
erUSULjcastro: i will have to learn how to do the bridgin scripts for kvm elsewhere XXDD22:14
egynjcastro: that is a good approach. thanx22:14
jcastroakgraner, I think enforcing speakers to finish off with where people can follow up would be useful22:14
akgraneryes.. it would...22:14
akgranerand 5 min before the next session22:14
AlanBellis Open Week a good title?22:14
JeruvyI really enjoyed this, well moderated and ran.    Some presenters went way too fast, but having a irc log online will give us time to review at our own pace.  In no way did this detract from the topics.  My thanks to everyone behind the scenes who made this happen great work.22:15
jcastrothat way all the people passionate about the topic can continue the discussion in another channel without bothering the new presenters22:15
ghostmanfreenode ist nazi22:15
AlanBellmaybe "text only conference" or something along those lines22:15
akgranerso dents/tweets/topic changes and voicing can happen smoothly22:15
Jesii think it depended on the session..... some could have used more detail, others were maybe too technical, I don't considered myself to be non-technical and I like to read up on things.... but I did have to ask about terminology22:15
sebsebsebI had a whole Open Week this time, however some sessions weren't really for me, so  I  went away from computer a bit or some Ubuntu Support in  IRC or whatever.   Some stuff I  haven't read yet also  sessionwise.  Unfortunatly I coudn't take part in the KVM session, because this computer doesn't have hardware virtulization.  The women sessions were good of course, but unlike with the one in 9.04, this time round I didn't ask a22:15
sebsebsebquestion since  I ended up doing something else.22:15
jcastroJeruvy, yeah, unfortunately sometimes people have to write things ahead of time22:15
jcastrobecause they would run out of time if they had to type by hand all hour22:15
sebsebsebThe Wine session was great for 9.04,  it's ashame that it got cancalled for 9.10,  why was that?22:16
jcastroI personally tend to paste a block, write manually for a bit, repeat22:16
jcastrosebsebseb, the WINE guy was on his way to the Wine conference22:16
jcastroand had a last minute plane change22:16
jcastrosince all the wine people were on the way to wineconf it was impossible to find a wine person, heh22:16
sebsebseboh22:17
jcastroScott sends  along his regrets, he'll definately be back next time though22:17
Jesiwineconf?22:17
jcastroit's the conference for wine people22:17
sebsebsebIt would have been good if Marks session was two hours this time, since  quite a few questions that ended up not getting answered.22:17
Jesiyeah allot of people ask about Wine, why isn't wine in synaptic?22:18
jcastrosebsebseb, unfortunately even when it's 2 hours not everyone's questions get asked22:18
AlanBellJesi: it is.22:18
jcastrohe didn't have time to commit to 2 this time around22:18
ghostmanfreenode ist nazifreenode ist nazi22:19
IdleOneghostman: #freenode for help with that22:19
JesiAlanBell: as of recently or has been? I had to add it to the sources in....... Intrepid (maybe it was Jaunty)22:19
IdleOneJesi: it was in jaunty22:19
ghostmanfreenode ist nazifreenode ist nazifreenode ist nazifreenode ist nazi22:19
Jesioh, how long will the logs be up?22:19
IdleOnejcastro: maybe you could show us how a ban is done?22:19
AlanBell!info wine1.222:20
ubottuwine1.2 (source: wine1.2): Microsoft Windows Compatibility Layer (Binary Emulator and Library). In component universe, is optional. Version 1.1.31-0ubuntu3 (karmic), package size 9065 kB, installed size 75812 kB22:20
ubot2AlanBell: wine1.2 (source: wine1.2): Microsoft Windows Compatibility Layer (Binary Emulator and Library). In component universe, is optional. Version 1.1.31-0ubuntu3 (karmic), package size 9065 kB, installed size 75812 kB22:20
charlie-tcaJesi: once they are put in the wiki, they stay22:20
jcastroIdleOne, I was just wondering the same thing22:20
ghostmanfreenode ist nazifreenode ist nazi22:20
IdleOnethank you22:21
jcastrois that right? :p22:21
IdleOnelooked good yes22:21
Jesigood session ;)22:21
JanCI think Wine has been in Ubuntu since before 1.0 was released, so at least since dapper22:21
Jeruvyget a board to set it on will help22:22
sebsebsebHaving this channel   moderated so we can't  message  here when a session is going on this time round,  well yes  I can imagine people maybe coming in here asking support questions when a session is going on,  or otherwise talking in here when they aren't really meant to.   However take 9.04 for example where people put messages in this channel when a session was going on when not really meant to,  it sometimes made things more fun,22:22
sebsebseband sometimes it was useful to be able to do that.22:22
jcastroyeah22:22
* Jeruvy oops that, wrong window22:22
jcastrolast time we didn't need +m22:22
jcastrobut this time we did22:22
AlanBell+m is better22:22
jcastrodunno, I think that depends on the vibe22:22
jcastroit was quite /awesome/ last time, we went the entire week without +m and everything worked so well22:22
dscasselI liked having the two channels.  Learning how /window works in irssi helps.22:23
jcastrobut I think this time with a bunch of new people coming in with openweek7___ etc.22:23
sebsebsebjcastro: Why was it felt that +m was needed this time?22:23
jcastrothat it was difficult to keep it non moderated22:23
JesiI accidently posted to the wrong channel a few times, good thing it didn't go through.... yeah, I suck....22:23
jcastrosebsebseb, it just got too noisy with inexperienced people early on22:23
sebsebsebjcastro: yeah those openweek  names confussed a lot of us I think22:23
jcastroyeah that can be improved22:23
charlie-tcaAs the numbers grow,22:24
charlie-tcaso does the confusion22:24
jcastroyeah22:24
jcastrothose of you asking about video and stuff22:24
jcastrojono does have a video-esque show on ustream: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/at-home-with-jono-bacon22:24
jcastrowhere people can ask questions about ubuntu, etc.22:24
AlanBellalso the people arriving as openweek didn't get a good first impression of IRC. They were all being told to shut up for being off topic and go away to #ubuntu - which they couldn't as #ubuntu kicks out web client users.22:24
egynand the will to destroy and flood22:24
dscasseljcastro, cool. Will check it out.22:25
sebsebsebMaybe if something similar happens next time,  a rule should be that to take part in the channel  that's  classroom chat   and this one,  is that  they have to have a proper name.   Otherwise they get kicked/banned untill they name change?22:25
Jesiwould it be possible to have backup options for sessions if something gets canceled? it would be a shame for something not to be included because of time restraints to then find out it could have been included22:25
jcastroI thnk we should just make it so they have to put in a name before they join22:25
AlanBelltext only is cool, it enables non-confident speakers to participate22:25
dscasselI just find I learn more of an auditory learner.  Reading doesn't let it sink in as well.22:25
dscasselIRC's good for the Q&A aspect, tho22:25
jcastroJesi, normally we have backup sessions but some people have been busy so it didn't work out22:26
AlanBellthere are plenty of real life/video/audio conferences. this is the only text only one I am aware of.22:26
charlie-tcaThe problem is if they are first timers, they don't really know how to get names always22:26
jcastrowas anyone aware of the Spanish Open Week happening at the same time?22:26
sebsebsebRegarding the +m  I suppouse really the person taking the session should choose to have it or not, for next time?22:27
AlanBellyes, it was on the wiki page22:27
IdleOnePlease choose a nickname " little box to type it in "22:27
jcastrohttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek_ES22:27
sebsebsebjcastro: yes I was22:27
akgranerI think we could have done a better job of making that known22:27
jcastrojust as a note, if you want to run an openweek in your language that that would be brilliant22:27
JanCAlanBell: video/audio is a lot more complicated to set up...  (and for some people just impossible to use)22:27
sebsebsebjcastro: not useful for me though, since  I know Hola  and  I think it's Navidad for Christmas and that's about it,  Costa Del Sol22:27
Jesiyeah, one thing I did on my website (or used to do) when I had a web frontend or IRC, was to put a table underneath the applet to list commands and what they did22:27
charlie-tcaAt the same time, turning on accessibility features, you can convert text to speech22:28
sebsebsebI could name a few Spannish places22:28
AlanBellI think open week should get the marketing effort (and suitable name) that a full scale conference would get.22:29
JesiI use pjirc for that..... never had a problem with going into channels22:29
IdleOnesebsebseb: taco bell does not count :P22:29
AlanBellhow many users were in the audience?22:29
AlanBellfor Mark22:29
jcastrowe averaged around ~30022:29
jcastro~350 for mark22:29
jcastrohe usually gets about ~450 but I'm sure the last minute reschedule didn't help22:29
AlanBellso a conference with 350 attendees is a significant conference22:29
sebsebsebmakes sense to have a Spannish Open Week I think though, since the amount of people that want es  that come into The Big Ubuntu Support Channel22:30
Jesi350 is a nice number I think22:30
jcastrosebsebseb, yeah, ideally having concurrent weeks in different languages around the world would rock22:30
erUSULwell i'm sure there were a few idlers (or many if count the people making questions ...)22:30
jcastrothat would also help coverage with time zones22:30
sebsebsebjcastro: well  mainland Spain is a few hours a head of South America22:31
jcastrothat  brings up another idea22:31
AlanBelland the number of unique attendees would be quite a lot higher than 35022:32
jcastroin the past after the scheduled sessions people have just decided to run random sessions22:32
AlanBellover the full week22:32
sebsebsebjcastro: Also having session logs translated into other languages  afterwoulds could be useful22:32
JanCI was idling most of the time, but have also read several presentations in backlog, that goes faster...  ;)22:32
jcastroso one person will just start one on the fly, this is highly encouraged!22:32
sebsebsebjcastro: Random sessions hmm22:33
jcastroright22:33
jcastroso some people miss it because of time zone or whatever22:33
sebsebsebnormalley I keep out of  these two channels  classroom and chat, since I don't really know what happens with them22:33
jcastroso one day I woke up and overnight people were just running sessions22:33
jcastroit was cool22:33
jcastrowell, when not running openweek the channels are here for similar things22:33
jcastroso if your loco wanted to have a classroom session on something22:33
jcastroyou don't have to wait for openweek22:33
jcastroyou can just do one22:34
jcastrohttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom22:34
Jesinice22:34
sebsebsebI mean I knew there was a developer week, and that's about it,  plus  I know the channel gets logged in the useual place for the main channels22:34
sebsebsebI am  not invovled with any in person  Ubuntu community stuff, if that's what you meant by loco22:35
jcastrowell, whichever team you want to work with22:35
jcastrovirtual or otherwise22:35
egynsebsebseb: maybe one could use something like babelfish or whatever to translate the presentation in realtime in another language-irc-room22:35
jcastroany other feedback?22:35
* jcastro is dying to get food at some point22:35
sebsebsebegyn: I woudn't rely on  babelfish that  can come out with some rather odd translations at times22:36
itnet7Great Job this week everyone!22:36
IdleOne!botsnack | jcastro22:36
ubot2jcastro: Yum! Err, I mean, APT!22:36
ubottujcastro: Yum! Err, I mean, APT!22:36
egynsebsebseb: i just grabbed an example service out of my head22:36
jcastroawesome, thanks again for showing up, feel free to hang out, smoke if you got em!22:36
egyni am sure there are other more suitable22:36
egynit is the idea, not the specific translation solution service i was after22:37
Jesiok, so, what kind of sessions would you like to see next time?22:37
sebsebsebjcastro: oh I just saw you had to ban someone22:37
akgranerjcastro, thanks for all your hardwork this week as well....  YOU ROCK!!!22:38
IdleOneThank you jcastro, akgraner, pleia2 and everybody else for the great week.22:39
AlanBellsebsebseb: which is a good reason for having +m, or it ends up in the logs, or gets edited out, both of which are sub-optimal22:39
AlanBelljcastro: thanks!22:39
akgranerIdleOne, thanks!!22:39
sebsebsebAlanBell: I don't think any of the offical Ubuntu logs get edited, unless there is a very good reason to do it, then they probably will I guess22:40
kalon33thanks all :)22:41
sebsebsebYes  thanks,  Ubuntu Open Week is a time, when I think it makes a lot of sense for me to be using IRC.  I also think that Ubuntu Open Week is good for the community.22:48
airurandoThis openweek was EXCELLENT. Something (or several things) for everyone. Very enjoyable. Sincere thanks.:)22:49
SchendjeYes, this week was great. :) Couldn't join all the sessions, but luckily there are always logs! Thanks to everyone involved. :)22:53
kalon33thanks to everyone22:56
kalon33good night :)22:56
sebsebsebjcastro: I missed stuff that was put from the beginning of this session.   I didn't really think about it, but that makes sense the open week names, because they went on the web based IRC thing.22:59
sebsebsebfrom should be at23:01
sebsebsebjcastro: Thanks for the classroom link, by the way.23:05
sebsebsebI guess this will just end up in the IRC channel  log now, not the session log as well. "Unfortunatly I coudn't take part in the KVM session, because this computer doesn't have hardware virtulization."   Well I put a little bit in Classroom Chat for that session.  This message is a bit pointless really, but I felt like putting anyway.23:17
broregd23:42
broregk23:42
=== pleia2 changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Packaging/Training || Upcoming: TBD || Run 'date -u' in a terminal to find out the UTC time

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