[00:01] <Lex79> I can't set pbuilder environment :( bug 476955
[00:16] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: libqt4-multimedia is in Universe.
[00:16] <ScottK> Is phonon-backends in Main?
[00:17] <ScottK> It is.
[00:17] <ScottK> That's the problem.
[00:18] <JontheEchidna> ah, it needs promoted
[00:19] <Lex79> why libqt4-multimedia is in Universe if the source package is in main ?
[00:20] <ScottK> Lex79: New binaries automatically go to Universe unless someone overrides them to Main
[00:20] <ScottK> Lots of source packages are mixed Main/Universe binaries.
[00:22] <Lex79> so, are in universe also libphonon4 and libphonon-dev ?
[00:23] <ScottK> Thanks
[00:23] <Lex79> :)
[00:25] <ScottK> Lex79: slangasek says those are already in Main
[00:26] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: Promoted, so the the next publisher run starts at :03 and should finish ~ :45.  After that we'll retry.
[00:29] <Lex79> in qt 4.6, Revision 29: Add phonon metapackage, libqt4-phonon -> libphon4, libqt4-phonon-dev -> libphonon-dev
[00:30] <ScottK> Lex79: When we built phonon from KDE, we had those packages, so they are still probably listed in Main
[00:30] <ScottK> Gotta run.
[00:31] <Lex79> ok
[01:26] <m4v> Riddell: ping, or anyone that can edit the page in http://www.kubuntu.org/support/espanol The link to "kdelatino" seems to be dead and got hijacked, please remove it.
[01:37] <ScottK> ryanakca: ^^^
[01:38] <MelisU> Hello guys! Quick question: Is KDEifying a Qt app doable for a newbie?
[01:39] <ScottK> MelisU: How's your C++?
[01:40] <MelisU> ScottK: C programmer .. so in ruins I guess
[01:40] <ScottK> Probably not then.
[01:41] <MelisU> ScottK:  is the basic gui for Qt and KDE the same or has KDE for every Qt component an extended KDE one?
[01:42] <ScottK> I think more the latter, but I package this stuff, I don't write it.
[01:42]  * ScottK bets JontheEchidna would know.
[01:42] <JontheEchidna> Not every Q Class has a K extended equivalent
[01:43] <JontheEchidna> I seem to recall a list of the Q's that we want K in general. lemme see if I can pull it up
[01:44] <JontheEchidna> hmm, no list. But in general if there is a K class it'll just replace the Q with a K\
[01:45] <JontheEchidna> this is about as close as I could find, but it's in no way exhaustive: http://techbase.kde.org/Policies/API_to_Avoid
[01:48] <ScottK> MelisU: If you see maco (or MsMaco) around, she recently started trying to convert to C++ and Qt/KDE stuff from C/GTK+.  She may have some advice.
[01:48] <JontheEchidna> I'd also look at a simple KDE skeleton program, such as the one that is generated by kapptemplate, to see what goes into a basic KDE program
[01:49] <JontheEchidna> basically for the KAboutData stuff that is needed I suppose
[01:50] <MelisU> JontheEchidna: OK, cool. Thanks a lot
[01:50] <MelisU> Quasel is mainly a Qt app,right?
[01:51] <ScottK> MelisU: Quassel is a QT app with optional KDE integration (which we build with for Kubuntu)
[01:52] <MelisU> ScottK: OK cool, I want to do something similar to retroshare ..
[02:25] <jjesse> when does nixternal get back from riding his bike?
[02:26] <ScottK> JontheEchidna: Retrying again.
[02:26] <ScottK> jjesse: Assuming he survives, I think just after UDS.
[02:26] <JontheEchidna> jjesse: he sent out the "out for a month" mail the 15th, so I guess he'll be back around then
[02:27]  * ScottK defers to JontheEchidna's actual research
[02:27] <jjesse> cause i got a lot of work for him lined up :)
[02:29] <ScottK> Like that'll result in anything getting done.
[02:47] <jjesse> ScottK: what having a list for nixternal do won't get anything done?
[02:50] <ScottK> jjesse: How much does he normally do?
[02:50] <jjesse> ok i understand your point now :)
[03:42] <ryanakca> m4v, ScottK: Done
[03:42] <m4v> ryanakca: thanks!
[03:44] <ScottK> ryanakca: Thanks.
[03:44] <ScottK> ryanakca: Did you see the second review I pointed out today?
[03:44] <ScottK> The netbook one.
[03:45] <ryanakca> ScottK: Nope, I only put up the extremetech one... I'll check the backlog
[03:47] <ryanakca> markey: Added, thanks :)
[03:59] <ScottK> ryanakca: http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/0,1000000567,10014384o-2000498448b,00.htm
[04:00] <ryanakca> ScottK: Yep, added it :)
[04:01] <ScottK> ryanakca: Excellent.  I really liked that one.  Thanks.
[08:16] <markey> oi
[08:16] <markey> gotta paste this (bit long, but worth it)
[08:16] <markey> 09:12 < CIA-40> nihui * r1046024 messages/trunk/l10n-kde4/zh_CN/messages/extragear-multimedia/ (5 files): (log message trimmed)
[08:16] <markey> 09:12 < CIA-40> update amarok translation.
[08:16] <markey> 09:12 < CIA-40> sentence by sentence reviewed by nihui.
[08:16] <tsimpson> use pastebin?
[08:16] <markey> 09:12 < CIA-40> No launchpad translation should be committed kde upstream directly after this amarok stuff.
[08:16] <markey> 09:12 < CIA-40> Quality is much more over than quantity.
[08:16] <markey> 09:12 < CIA-40> Contribution is needed and welcomed, but launchpad ones are just like playground masses, at least now.
[08:16] <markey> no
[08:16] <markey> it wasn't that long after all :)
[08:17] <markey> but might interest some of you
[08:17] <tsimpson> nothing new there though ;)
[08:17] <markey> ;)
[09:32] <Sput> MelisU: in Quassel, we use wrappers for tool classes, e.g. our Icon class inherits either from KIcon or from QIcon, in the latter case we implement missing but needed bits ourselves (such as icon theme support)
[09:32] <Sput> same for KAction/QAction and so on
[09:33] <Sput> this concept keeps the #ifdefs in a few places rather than littering the codebase with them
[09:34] <MelisU> Sput: Oh, good morning. Thanks. Was that added later on or a design choice from the start?
[09:34] <Sput> MelisU: it was added later, though I had been thinking about that for quite a while before
[09:35] <Sput> I've started carefully designing our own APIs to be KDE compatible for such things before actually implementing the KDE version
[09:35] <MelisU> Sput: That is encouraging.
[09:36] <MelisU> Sput: Besides icons what are other major areas where Qt needs changes?
[09:36] <Sput> for some things, just replacing the Q by a K is enough (e.g. QColorDialog / KColorDialog), for others the K variant has added functionality that you need to code yourself in the Q version (then the wrapper class concept is the cleanest way IMHO)
[09:36] <Sput> mmmh... notifications, shortcuts, toolbars, and the main window mostly
[09:37] <Sput> plus system dialogs
[09:38] <Sput> the only thing we really couldn't integrate properly is the alignment of UI form elements (KDE4 want labels to be right-aligned). since QFormLayout is *still* broken, we need to decide which way to go, and having left-aligned labels is the right thing on all platforms except KDE4
[09:38] <MelisU> Sput: OK, so it can be added one at a time. Cool, that is nice.
[09:39] <Sput> yes, we did it that way
[09:39] <Sput> start with the main window, obviously, so you have the needed support in place
[09:39] <Sput> oh, and having a cmake-based build system helps
[09:39] <MelisU> Sput: OK, I still have to talk to upstream if they would accept the changes .. I have no desire maintaining a fork tbh.
[09:40] <Sput> sure
[09:40] <Sput> feel free to peek into our code base, looking for #ifdef HAVE_KDE should show you the places
[09:41] <MelisU> Sput: It is early planning really, but the idea a social, encrypted, serverless message/data sharing system really facinates me.
[09:43] <MelisU> Sput: I am too paranoid to rely on other peoples servers .. but I think I sould chat with the social desktop people too. Frank is a nice guy.
[09:43] <Sput> yeah I find it quite exciting how these things start shaping up
[09:44] <MelisU> me too. But I am still really unsure and maybe getting the blessing of some bright KDE will help.
[09:45] <MelisU> *KDE devy
[09:45] <MelisU> argh ... the keyboard on my EeePC is just too small :)
[09:49] <tsimpson> bug #133937 is back
[09:49] <tsimpson> but it's an easy fix
[10:07] <ulysses__> "You received this bug notification because you are a member of Kubuntu
[10:07] <ulysses__> Members, which is a direct subscriber."
[10:07] <ulysses__> I don't know, I am a kubuntu member o.O
[10:07] <amichair> tsimpson: I fixed that one.
[10:07] <tsimpson> amichair: well, it got unfixed ;)
[10:08] <tsimpson> amichair: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/35301129/software-properties_0.75.4_0.75.5.diff is my fix
[10:09] <amichair> tsimpson: or maybe it's a 3rd such place where a similar bug happens...
[10:09] <tsimpson> this one is to do with gpg keys containing non ascii chars
[10:11] <amichair> tsimpson: bug #350485 is what I fixed - sounds the same
[10:12] <tsimpson> similar, but a different bug
[10:12] <amichair> tsimpson: and I made sure it imports gpg with latin/hebrew filenames for a test
[10:12] <amichair> tsimpson: maybe it wasn't committed?
[10:12] <tsimpson> yours is in saving the data, mine is in reading it back
[10:13] <amichair> tsimpson: anyway I'm working on a few sp bugs (not yet committed)
[10:13] <amichair> tsimpson: let me know if there's anything related I can help with or take a look at :-)
[10:14] <tsimpson> I only noticed it because I wanted to try out the new ppa: style repositories
[10:14] <tsimpson> I usually never use software-properties-kde
[10:19] <amichair> tsimpson: it's my first time working on kubuntu, so I just picked a relatively simple package, and working on some simple bugfixes
[11:28] <amichair> I've managed to recreate a crash and get the message "KCrash: Application 'software-properties-kde' crashing...", is there any way to see the stack trace at the time of crash?
[11:31] <apachelogger> kde rev 1046024
[11:32] <apachelogger> markey: thanks for the pasty
[11:37] <markey> np
[11:59] <apachelogger> Sime: would be very nice if you could take a glimps at http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=196800 :)
[12:04] <Sime> apachelogger: it looks like the old "Qt doesn't like the QApplication being destroyed before the other stuff is destroyed" problem.
[12:04] <Sime> apachelogger: the fix is easy enough.
[12:04]  * apachelogger pokes yuriy
[12:06] <Sime> apachelogger:  create a main() with the first bit of code in there. Make "app" global.
[12:14]  * apachelogger pokes Riddell with bug 414572
[12:24] <apachelogger> bug 415023 <- that is why lp master bugs are annoying
[12:25] <apachelogger> look at the amount of people AND teams subscribed to this bug
[12:26] <Nightrose> yea
[12:26]  * Nightrose wishes she could unsubscribe from that one
[12:26] <Nightrose> but it seems impossible
[12:31] <amichair> do all qt events (e.g. mouse) come from the same thread?
[12:38] <apachelogger> amichair: "mouse" is not an event :P
[12:38] <apachelogger> it's an input device
[12:38] <apachelogger> used to point and click on things :D
[12:39] <amichair> grrrr
[12:39] <amichair> :)
[12:39] <apachelogger> amichair: seriously... what mous events are you talking about?
[12:39] <apachelogger> dragndrop, hover?
[12:40] <amichair> if the answer depends on this, then the answer would be 'no' :)
[12:40] <amichair> either there's one event handler thread, or there's more than one
[12:40] <apachelogger> not quite
[12:40] <apachelogger> amichair: I doubt Qt works that way
[12:40] <apachelogger> amichair: I probably should ask in #qt
[12:41] <apachelogger> but if event handling follows the usual qt workflow than it is scoped to the QObject/QWidget and thus the thread of the object or widget
[12:41] <apachelogger> a drag event might be implemented differently though
[12:42]  * apachelogger doesnt see how this is relevant anyway, unless you are working on Qt itself :P
[12:42] <amichair> apachelogger: I'm investigating bug 102792 crash, trying to see if I can rule out a race condition between toggle/change events of a treeview, to be precise
[12:43] <amichair> amichair: I know some framworks guarantee that gui events all come from the same thread, hence the question about qt
[12:45] <apachelogger> amichair: AFAIK event processing is queued (such as almost everything in Qt, unless you do a manual override)
[12:46]  * apachelogger thinks that issue might be specific to pyqt
[12:46] <apachelogger> then again I always think that :)
[12:46] <amichair> it's possible... there's nothing in the sp soft-props code that pops up as candidate yet
[12:48] <amichair> apachelogger: but since I have very little experience with soft-props, python, pyqt and qt, I'm trying to learn the basics as I go along :-) (thanks!)
[12:49] <apachelogger> uhm
[12:49] <apachelogger> sp is not localized because of a bug
[12:49] <apachelogger> fun
[12:49] <apachelogger> :D
[13:10] <amichair> apachelogger: strange... there's one call to set_modified_sourcelist that if commented out, stops the crash from happening.
[13:11] <amichair> apachelogger:  but if I inline the entire method contents in place of the call, it doesn't crash either.
[13:11] <amichair> apachelogger: and if I put a return statement in the first line of the method, it does crash
[13:11] <amichair> apachelogger:  it's like the stack frame gets messed up or something... who would do such a thing? and for god's sake, why??
[13:46]  * apachelogger runs his head against the wall
[13:47] <apachelogger> amichair: no clue, maybe Sime knows
[13:47]  * apachelogger is fighting with l10n
[13:49] <apachelogger> yay QGroupBox.title() strips html formatting for some reason
[13:54] <maco> *snort* just saw a dent  of someone switching from kubuntu to ubuntu because they're sick of the "krashing"
[13:56] <apachelogger> actuall
[13:56] <apachelogger> y
[13:56] <apachelogger> awoga
[13:56] <apachelogger> gtk version uses <b>foobar</b> Qt does not
[13:56] <apachelogger> yet .po only conatains the <b>foobar</b> version
[13:57] <apachelogger> you know
[13:57] <apachelogger> I hate that crap
[13:57] <apachelogger> I hate it all
[13:57] <apachelogger> I hate it so hard that I could throw up
[13:57] <apachelogger> right now
[13:57] <apachelogger> right here
[13:57] <apachelogger> just because of that and the bazillion other issues that are only caused by insanity in a component or another
[15:18]  * Nightrose hugs apachelogger and takes him for a dance
[15:20] <apachelogger> #~ msgid "_Check for updates automatically:"
[15:20] <apachelogger> #~ msgstr "_Automatisch auf Aktualisierungen prüfen:"
[15:20] <apachelogger> note them #~
[15:24]  * apachelogger blinks
[15:24] <apachelogger> ha
[15:24] <apachelogger> stuff from our ui files dont even seem to matter
[15:24] <apachelogger> \o/
[15:25] <apachelogger> Nightrose: honey, please do something
[15:26] <apachelogger> them blue headed step child implementations are so ugly
[15:26] <Nightrose> :(
[15:26] <Nightrose> would a good soup help?
[15:26] <Nightrose> i was about to make one
[15:26] <apachelogger> dont think so
[15:26] <Nightrose> hmmm
[15:27] <apachelogger> wellz
[15:27] <apachelogger> I think I squeezed as much translation out of that crap as possible
[15:39] <apachelogger> hah
[15:39] <apachelogger> how cool is that
[15:39] <apachelogger> everything sez the string should get translated
[15:39] <apachelogger> but it does not
[15:39] <apachelogger> awesome
[15:45] <ScottK> apachelogger: Timelord in the news: http://www.linux-magazine.com/Online/News/Project-Timelord-Kubuntu-to-Become-Even-Better
[16:10] <apachelogger> what an incredible waste of time
[16:14] <apachelogger> ScottK: yeah, saw that already :)
[16:17] <apachelogger> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/software-properties/main/revision/585
[16:17] <apachelogger> ugly python ftw!
[16:42] <Sput> apachelogger: well, Qt does start multiple threads you never see in your program
[16:42] <Sput> so even a "single threaded Qt application" starts about 4 threads
[16:44] <jwisser> Anyone know why this is in Konqueror? http://flic.kr/p/7dQCcL
[16:54] <Sime> apachelogger: It looks like you are trying to stuff a square peg in a round hole there....
[16:55] <apachelogger> Sime: yeah, that happens when you want to share translations between gtk and kde
[16:55] <apachelogger> + I need non-invasive solutions so that I can improve the translations in 9.10
[16:56] <Sime> ouch...
[16:58] <Sput> or maybe invasive ones?
[17:10] <apachelogger> Sput: I can not change strings or add new ones or stuff
[17:11] <apachelogger> but the concept applied for that particular applicaiton are fundamentally wrong in terms of l10n sharing between the GTK and KDE UI
[17:11] <Sput> hmkay
[17:11] <apachelogger> so I need to fight the issues instead of squashing them with superior love
[17:12] <Sput> what about buttseks instead of superior love?
[17:12] <Sput> that'll show them issues!
[17:21] <apachelogger> Sput: that does not qualify for stable update either :P
[18:07] <ryanakca> yuriy: Any ideas for bug 389245 ?
[19:28] <ScottK> NCommander: Could you take a look at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qt4-x11/4:4.6.0~beta1-1ubuntu1/+build/1328646 - My barely trained reading says it's a portability but it'd be very nice to get fixed upstream before Qt 4.6 releases.
[19:56] <ulysses__> I had just now a strange 'crash', I worked, and then the X disappear, I could only reach tty1-6, and after that the X reloaded, but my session...
[19:57] <ulysses__> no crash report, no error message, nothing
[20:47] <amichair> say I fixed a few bugs in a branch, what then? do I need to find a guru willing to volunteer to review it and merge it? I'd be happy to get some feedback so I can do better as I proceed...
[20:50] <apachelogger> hah
[20:50] <apachelogger> how nice is that
[20:50] <apachelogger> I cant remove the indicator crap unless I am in edit-panel mode
[20:50] <apachelogger> you know what
[20:50] <apachelogger> that does it
[20:50] <apachelogger> see you in a week or so
[20:50]  * apachelogger seriously need to consider whether it is worth dealing with all that shit
[21:14] <Quintasan> what, plasma on symbian. w00t
[22:26] <jwisser> Can someone explain to me exactly what the Kubuntu Council is? I assume it's a sort of steering committee, but I can't find much information on exactly how much control/influence they have, and how they wield it.
[22:28] <ScottK> jwisser: They are elected by Kubuntu Members.  They take the final decisions on Kubuntu development for each cycle and resolve any disputes within the community.
[22:29] <jwisser> ScottK: And are Kubuntu Members strictly developers?
[22:29] <ScottK> No.
[22:29] <jwisser> By what criteria are they elected?
[22:29] <ScottK> It's essentially the same rules as Ubuntu members, but with a Kubuntu focus.
[22:29] <ScottK> The Kubuntu Council is not all developers either.
[22:33] <jwisser> ::nods::
[22:34] <jwisser> If they make final decisions, does that mean they can suggest areas that need bug fixes and other work, or do they get say on what's included and what's not?
[22:35] <jwisser> Slash where can I learn about this so I'm not wasting your time?
[22:36] <ScottK> It's on wiki.kubuntu.org somewhere ....
[22:37] <Nightrose> jwisser: generally the community decides
[22:38] <Nightrose> we have regular meetings for example
[22:38] <ScottK> Anyone can suggest stuff, but since this is mostly a volunteer organization there isn't much directing.
[22:38] <jwisser> nightrose: What's in and what's out, you mean?
[22:38] <Nightrose> but if we can't come to a conclusion the coulcil takes a decision
[22:38] <ScottK> Generally what's in is defined by what people are willing to volunteer time to work on.
[22:38] <Nightrose> well decisions on default programs have been made by the council before yea
[22:38] <Nightrose> right
[22:39] <jwisser> ScottK: I guess the point I'm trying to get at is whether there's anyone who holds people toes to the fire regarding a given release not having something broken in it.
[22:39] <Nightrose> the council really really seldomly has to make a decision
[22:39] <jwisser> *people's
[22:39] <ScottK> jwisser: Developers generally do that collectively.
[22:39] <ScottK> Not sucking is something we're all pretty committed to.
[22:43] <jwisser> ScottK: But that predominantly revolves around directly-code-related issues, yeah? For example, say a random window—call it the kpackagekit authentication window, 'cause that's what it was—takes up huge amounts of unnecessary vertical space, and can't be resized.
[22:43] <jwisser> Does anyone jump on design issues like that?
[22:44] <ScottK> Yes.
[22:44] <ScottK> I whine about kpackagekit incessently.
[22:45] <ScottK> Also one of the Kubuntu Council members is the head of the KDE usability project.
[22:45] <ScottK> That doesn't hurt either.
[22:45] <jwisser> Good deal. Can I file design issues as bugs, then?
[22:45] <jwisser> Like the weird Windows-shield-appearing-in-Konqueror issue I linked to earlier?
[22:45] <ScottK> Certainly, but generally we'll defer to upstream on such things.  It's actually better to file there.
[22:46] <jwisser> That makes sense, but it does seem like depending on upstream devs and designers leaves a lot of room for uncontrolled brokenness.
[22:46] <jwisser> (I'm sure this conversation has been hashed out a hundred times before, I'm just trying to understand how things work for myself.)
[22:46] <ScottK> One of the Kubuntu core values is that we are a KDE distro, so we stick close to upstream for most things.
[22:47] <ScottK> KDE upstream development is a lot more integrated (as I understand it) than Gnome's so this isn't a risky as it might sound to you.
[22:48]  * txwikinger doesn't get the KDE-Windows comparison
[22:49] <txwikinger> KDE can be customize in far too many ways that my desktop ever be mixed up with windows
[22:49] <jwisser> txwikinger: http://flic.kr/p/7dQCcL is all I was talking about.
[22:50] <txwikinger> Ah... well sorry....
[22:51]  * txwikinger is already again behind schedule and watching SEC games is not helping either
[22:53] <amichair> say I fixed a few bugs in a branch, what then? do I need to find a guru willing to volunteer to review it and merge it? I'd be happy to get some feedback so I can do a better job :-)
[22:54] <jwisser> txwikinger: I wasn't comparing KDE to Windows, but since you mention it the KDE application launcher menu smells a bit too strongly of the Windows Start bar for my taste.
[22:54] <txwikinger> well.. don't use it :D
[22:55] <txwikinger> there are other things you can use
[23:03] <jwisser> It seems difficult to market something when there's no particular group of people setting absolutely definite requirements for a given release until a month or two before final release (as I understand it).
[23:06] <Ash-Fox> You know, I get some weird technical support requests from time to time, but this guy beats all... He wants me to teach him how to read better so he can become a DBA.
[23:08] <kwwii> Riddell: ping?
[23:09] <kwwii> Riddell (or anyone who can answer)...is the KDM theme from upstream?
[23:09] <kwwii> and if so, which upstream? oxygen, etc?
[23:09] <Ash-Fox> I haven't seen it in other distributions.
[23:10] <ScottK> kwwii: I'm almost certain it is.  We had an artwork spec for Karmic, but nothing got done with it.
[23:10] <kwwii> ScottK: yeah, I know that I didn't do anything :p
[23:10] <ScottK> Ash-Fox: I think we're the only ones NOT to customize it.
[23:10] <ScottK> Thus we get to be unique with zero effort. ;-)
[23:10] <kwwii> mark is apparently impressed with it :)
[23:10] <Ash-Fox> Haha, ScottK, I remember when some people disliked Kubuntu for customizing things from upstream.
[23:11] <ScottK> kwwii: The only artwork thing I think that got done last cycle is the installer stuff got blinged up with help from upstream.
[23:11] <ScottK> Ash-Fox: We deserved some of it too.
[23:12] <kwwii> for lucid I am going to suggest that i work more on kubuntu
[23:12] <kwwii> see what comes of that ;)
[23:12] <Ash-Fox> ScottK, I'm not entirely convinced, for people flaming for Konqueror's toolbar customizations... Honestly, the thing was horrible from upstream
[23:12] <ScottK> kwwii: Excellent.
[23:12] <ScottK> Ash-Fox: I didn't say we deserved all of it.
[23:12] <Ash-Fox> Billion button hell :)
[23:12] <Ash-Fox> ScottK, true. ;)
[23:13] <ScottK> kwwii: I think KDE4 is really starting to come together and we've got a good shot at a really great LTS release for Kubuntu.  Having some artwork help would be huge.
[23:14] <jwisser> The LTS release does seem like a great opportunity.
[23:15] <jwisser> ScottK: Am I getting my timeline wrong for feature/UI freeze?
[23:15] <ScottK> What timeline?
[23:15] <jwisser> Sorry, it was back up a ways.
[23:15] <jwisser> It seems like those freezes don't occur until a month or two before release.
[23:16] <ScottK> jwisser: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidReleaseSchedule
[23:16]  * ScottK needs to go be "Driver of teenagers" for a while.  See you in a bit.
[23:16] <jwisser> ScottK: Safe driving!
[23:18] <jwisser> The thing is, if Kubuntu is going to be promoted to non-Kubuntu/RandomLinux users, there needs to be something to definitively promote. Just being a KDE dpkg-based distro is not really enough to stand out and attract new users.
[23:18] <jwisser> Does anyone else see this as a problem?
[23:19] <Lex79> JontheEchidna: just curiosity, can't we keep for now kubuntu-menu icons in kdelibs?
[23:20] <JontheEchidna> It's not being used and it makes the diff really large
[23:22] <Lex79> JontheEchidna: it's used if you want change kde logo in kickoff, just go in application launcher setting -> icon and type "kubuntu" and you can have kubuntu logo
[23:22] <Lex79> I saw much karmic screenshoot with kubuntu logo in my forum
[23:23] <amichair> jwisser: depends who u'r trying to promote to... for the average windows user, 'linux' and 'ubuntu' and 'ubuntu with kde' are all about the same... just maybe different looks
[23:23] <Lex79> maybe because I wrote in forum how to change kde logo to kubuntu logo :)
[23:24] <JontheEchidna> it's available from kde-look anyhow. Most users will never see it
[23:24] <jwisser> amichair: Precisely. The idea being that Kubuntu should have something promoters can call on to demonstrate that it's unique and special and you should try it.
[23:24] <JontheEchidna> Plus I think there were issues about brand pollution by mixing the two logos
[23:24] <JontheEchidna> I wouldn't adovcate including it until we've talked about it with upstream
[23:26] <amichair> jwisser: for those users it won't make much of a difference... if you're lucky they've heard of 'ubuntu' from some friend, which makes kubuntu familiar by association. if they also like blue, they'll give it a shot over ubuntu. I think a screenshot is nearly all you can hope to sell.
[23:27] <jwisser> That's how things are *now*. That is not how they should be in the *future*.
[23:28] <jwisser> The reason Ubuntu rose to what prominence it has it that it had features (namely user-friendliness) not common in other distros.
[23:28] <amichair> jwisser: when the year of linux on the desktkop arrives, I'll agree :-)
[23:29] <amichair> jwisser: I think what made the difference is the community, and marketing as such
[23:29] <amichair> jwisser: and again, kubuntu gets that by association
[23:29] <claydoh> tough question to ask : are/will we be trying to attract users really? Or rather are we trying to be the super-easy newbie-friendly distro, or do we get that by association?
[23:30] <amichair> jwisser: do u have any ideas for something u can really promote to such users?
[23:30] <jwisser> amichair: That's what I'm trying to find out—what is there that we can promote?
[23:30] <claydoh> too many questions we need to answer still
[23:30] <jwisser> claydoh: Good questions. My impression (under Project Timelord) is that Kubuntu wants new users. Possibly I'm wrong.
[23:31] <dtchen> I think new users is a bit tangential to the proposal
[23:31] <jwisser> Getting reputations by association is nice, but Windows didn't get where it is by living on the reputation of DOS or Mac OS. For any particular project to gain attention, it needs to have features of its own to trumpet.
[23:32] <claydoh> jwisser: I assume any distro wants more users, but I don't think anyone has figured out how that fits in with being a KDE-only distro, and an Ubuntu deriviative, etc
[23:32] <jwisser> I guess my question, then, is why would we *not* be trying to attract new users?
[23:32] <jwisser> claydoh: Which is what I'm trying to encourage people to do. :-)
[23:33] <jwisser> Project Timelord calls for vision; I'm trying to find out who's got it. ;-)
[23:33] <amichair> jwisser: I'm not sure windows every had it's own features to target. it just aimed lots of marketing at demographics who were never exposed to computers in that way.
[23:33] <amichair> jwisser: and we need to do the same, but with 'never exposed' replaces with 'never exposed to anything but windows'
[23:34] <jwisser> amichair: I don't think most of the first generations of Windows users were totally unexposed to the desktop metaphor. If I remember my timeline correctly, Macs were pretty big news first.
[23:34] <jwisser> amichair: So the question becomes, what do we have that's better than what other people have? Or, more generally, *why should people switch*?
[23:34] <claydoh> jwisser: :) we still need to define a 'target audience' which is tough to do, I wouldn't want that job,  but it may be necessary, Developing that so-called kubuntu vision will probably help define that
[23:35] <jwisser> And for me, three selling points are 1) free (gratis), 2) open source (libré), and 3) customizable.
[23:35] <jwisser> But what sells to me won't sell to everyone, so we need to define a vision, make it happen, and promote it to the people it's aimed at.
[23:36] <amichair> I agree, but I think nobody cares about #2, some care about #1 (but a whole lot just pirate windows anyway)
[23:36] <claydoh> what sells it to me is KDE, KDE, and package management and other debian/ubuntu underpinnings :)
[23:36] <jwisser> amichair: As I said, that's why we need to find the things that *will* appeal to them.
[23:37] <jwisser> claydoh: Damn skippy, with regard to apt/dpkg, etc.
[23:37] <amichair> my first guess would be looks and/or desktop experience
[23:37] <jwisser> I've never been a KDE fan; I just broke off my love—well, lukewarm fondness—affair with Gnome. What do you love about KDE?
[23:37] <amichair> not as much customizations, as most users never go beyond switching a wallpaper, if someone shows them how to
[23:38] <amichair> for a simple example: ppl that come over and want to check mail, see wobbly windows on my desktop and say 'hey, is this linux? cool!' (a true story)
[23:38] <claydoh> I like it customizations over gnome, though I personally don't customize a lot as Kubuntu has it pretty close to how I like it anyway
[23:39] <jwisser> amichair: I personally wonder how much of that is just not knowing what they can do. I've always wondered if Linux might have more success if it (where "it"="some distro) ran a "Make your computer… yours." campaign.
[23:39] <amichair> jwisser: interesting question
[23:39] <jwisser> Or "Computing… your way".
[23:39] <claydoh> esp back in the kde3 days, kubuntu's kde implementation meant I needed to fix less look-n-feel stuff
[23:40] <jwisser> Most people don't even know that you can change the location of the Start bar in Windows.
[23:40] <amichair> I'm sure there's a market for that (maybe teens?)
[23:40] <jwisser> amichair: Bingo. The emerging market.
[23:40] <amichair> there's also a lot of ppl that are scared of computers and change, and change in computers. they just want it to work (for the extremely small subset of apps/actions they use)
[23:40] <jwisser> People who are getting their own first computer and 1) want it to work exactly as they say it should or 2) have no previous experiences.
[23:41] <jwisser> amichair: And Linux can be *awesome* at that.
[23:41] <claydoh> amichair: we have a *lot* of kde3 die-hards that really don't like change
[23:42] <jwisser> So maybe there need to be several different kinds of outreach: one aimed at teens and people in emerging markets, and one (based on install-and-run-no-updates) that emphasizes how well Linux will keep working if just left alone.
[23:42] <jwisser> As opposed to how Windows (and even OS X) crap up over time.
[23:44] <claydoh> I wonder if we should target general linux users in the beginning, then once we gather steam, developers, better public acceptance, and developers, then start targeting new users once we have the resources :)
[23:44] <amichair> I think one of the hard questions is how to make the out-of-the-box experience similar enough to windows for everyone to feel at home, but different enough for them to be curious and feel there's something 'cooler' here. it's a very subtle balance.
[23:45] <jwisser> claydoh: I think finding public acceptance through wooing current Linux users is a fallacy.
[23:46] <amichair> I agree. it makes more sense to get more users, and some precentage of them will end up contributing.
[23:46] <jwisser> amichair: I really think part of the answer to that is in leaving the desktop mostly as it is (default toolbar, etc.) and then hammering promotional materials with "Look what your desktop can do"-type stuff.
[23:47] <amichair> e.g. windows developers which convert...
[23:47] <amichair> jwisser: and, making it *really* easy to find the customizations.
[23:48] <jwisser> amichair: 100%. They can't be hidden away.
[23:48] <jwisser> I've always found Gnome *easier* to customize, although the customization may not ultimately be as complete.
[23:49] <amichair> like maybe a single 'customization center' link on the taskbar, that gives u all options by category, app, search... as opposed to nested system settings, and per-app configurations u have to find for urself
[23:49] <claydoh> how do we target the new users (and make/create the tools needed to make kubuntu easier to use a-la Ubuntu) without getting more devs?
[23:49] <claydoh> jwisser: I am not disagreeing with you on this though
[23:50] <jwisser> amichair: Interesting idea. If we were to push customization, it would make sense to put it *somewhere* easy to find. I have a squicky feeling about the taskbar, though; not sure why.
[23:50] <amichair> jwisser: that's just an example :-)
[23:50] <jwisser> claydoh: It's a good question, and one I don't have a strong enough sense of how badly this community needs devs to answer.
[23:50] <jwisser> claydoh: I take it there's not an overwhelming abundance?
[23:50] <amichair> jwisser: the point is - to have it somehow centralized, so that *every* user knows exactly where the 'customization place' is
[23:50] <claydoh> I think just  showing all the things KDE4 can already do is utterly important  and probably easy to do
[23:51] <jwisser> amichair: Definitely.
[23:51] <jwisser> Have you both seen Apple's commercials for the iPhone? The "There's an app for that" one?
[23:51] <jwisser> *ones
[23:51] <JontheEchidna> ^is there an app for that? :P
[23:51] <jwisser> I think those could be a model for how to demonstrate a feature or customization option at a time.
[23:52] <amichair> nope, I don't watch much tv
[23:53] <amichair> maybe also make short videos showing off options and how to find and use them... users today are sure good at watching short videos.
[23:53] <jwisser> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szrsfeyLzyg is a decent example.
[23:53] <jwisser> amichair: that's exactly what I mean.
[23:53] <jwisser> Videos that highlight one feature (two is stretching it) at a time.
[23:53] <jwisser> Or a really awesome feature that an app has that's not common on other OSes.
[23:55] <claydoh> and even I can make a screencast nowadays :)
[23:56] <jwisser> Absolutely. Wouldn't hurt us to find out which of us has the best voice (and/or taste in background music :-P), but definitely doable.
[23:57] <jwisser> I think if we can nail down some cool stuff that's coming up in the next release (or even stuff that's really shiny about KDE), we could produce some pretty slick videos by release day.
[23:57] <jwisser> Preferably by a month or so ahead of time at minimum.
[23:58] <jwisser> The handy thing about being an underdog is that if we make a concerted marketing/promotional effort, we can probably get media attention just by doing that.
[23:59] <jwisser> At least, if we do a half-decent job of it.