[14:07] <zniavre> hello ?
[14:07] <coz_> zniavre,  hey guy
[14:08] <zniavre> what is the way to know the name of one (or several) trayicons easily ?im looking for the vlc , xchat and dropbox tray icons
[14:08] <zniavre> i can't change them
[14:08] <coz_> mmm
[14:08] <zniavre> bonjour coz_
[14:09] <coz_> zniavre,  bonjour mon ami   ca va?
[14:09] <coz_> zniavre,   not sure exactly what you mean...the system tray?
[14:09] <zniavre> great thank you , hope you are fine too
[14:09] <zniavre> the tray is the notification aera into panel ?
[14:10] <mac_v> zniavre: did you try running the gnome-panel from terminal? that *might* show the icon names too
[14:10] <zniavre> ho trying right now
[14:11] <zniavre> Cannot register the panel shell: there is already one running.  how to kill it ?
[14:11] <zniavre> killall gnome-panel > gnome-panel   its what i did
[14:12] <coz_> zniavre,  xchat should be in either  usr/share/app-install/icons  or  usr/share/icon
[14:12] <mac_v> zniavre: $killall gnome-panel && gnome-panel
[14:13] <zniavre> it does not help
[14:13] <mac_v> zniavre:  the apps , you need to start after the panel is restarted
[14:13] <coz_> zniavre,   i think that both mplayer and xchat icons are located in   /usr/share/app-intall/icons
[14:14] <coz_> sorry
[14:14] <coz_> /usr/share/app-install/icons
[14:15] <mac_v> oh... there is a huge list of icons there o.0
[14:16] <zniavre_> that s true
[14:19] <coz_> zniavre,  I would just make a backup of those icons  ..then change any or all of them to your liking to see if that works
[14:26] <zniavre__> mmm
[14:26] <zniavre__>  this does not works for xchat
[14:27] <coz_> zniavre,  look in   usr/share/icon for the xchat icon
[14:27] <coz_> /usr/share/icons
[14:27] <coz_> zniavre,  it could be an xchat.xpm  but I doubt it
[14:28] <coz_> unless it is a larger .xpm icon
[14:28] <zniavre__> it exists at least im gonna to try again
[14:28] <coz_> cool
[14:29] <coz_> zniavre,  did the other work for mplayer?
[14:30] <zniavre__> i do not hav mplayer instaled
[14:31] <coz_> ah ok
[14:32] <zniavre__> im trying ...
[14:33] <zniavre__> :o(
[14:33] <coz_> no??
[14:33] <zniavre__> no
[14:33] <coz_> zniavre,  let me check here to see if there is another location
[14:34] <coz_> zniavre,  /usr/share/pixmaps
[14:34] <zniavre__> already changed
[14:34] <coz_> mmm
[14:34] <zniavre__> first test in fact after my onw theme in home
[14:35] <coz_> zniavre,  when you changed the xchat icon in /usr/share/icons  did you save it as .xpm again?
[14:35] <zniavre__> anyway someone smarter than me could do the xchat humanity icon
[14:35] <zniavre__> i moved it into another folder
[14:36] <zniavre__> and yes i saved it into same name same extension
[14:37] <coz_> zniavre,  ok as far as I can see  xchat icons are only in  /usr/share/app-install/icons   /usr/share/icons and  /usr/share/pixmaps
[14:39] <zniavre__> taht s why im asking cause i saw they are all in those folders but it does not work
[14:40] <zniavre__> even for dropbox it's a bit hided somewhere but i can't find the good place
[14:40] <coz_> zniavre,  it may be you have to restart the system for xchat's icon to be replace  but not sure
[14:40] <zniavre__> ok trying right now
[14:42] <zniavre> no
[14:43] <zniavre> some tray icons are haunted
[14:44] <coz_> mmm
[14:44] <zniavre> hard coded stuff could be right ?
[14:44] <coz_> let me check something
[14:44] <coz_> could be  but let me check
[14:44] <zniavre> :o)
[14:48] <coz_> zniavre,   let me see if there is a conf file or xml file that might be at work here
[14:48] <coz_> hold on  I have a nature call firsr  :)
[14:49] <zniavre> :o)
[14:53] <coz_> zniavre,     http://xchat.org/faq/#q27
[14:55] <coz_> zniavre,  do you see how to do that ?
[14:56] <zniavre> im trying
[14:56] <coz_> cool
[14:56] <zniavre> but there s no xcaht folder in the place they show
[14:59] <zniavre> /opt/change/minis/xchat0.png  im trying this folder
[15:00] <zniavre> /opt/change/minis/xchat2.png  maybe this one
[15:02] <coz_> ok
[15:03] <coz_> zniavre,  you see there are three tray icons you can change  message.png   highlight.png and fileoffer.png
[15:04] <zniavre> but not the "regular" one?
[15:07] <coz_> zniavre,  according to that link  if you change any or all of those icons  and place them where it says  it should change all of the icons  but I believe you need to name them the way they have them listed there
[15:07] <zniavre> ok
[15:08] <zniavre> i will go to school take my daughters first and re-work on xchat tonight thank you
[15:08] <coz_> :)  yes real life comes first
[15:41] <kwwii> hey kids
[15:41] <knome> hello grandpa
[15:41] <kwwii> :)
[15:42] <knome> kwwii, how are you?
[15:42]  * kwwii is on dallas time this week and next...quite busy
[15:42] <andreasn> kwwii: is it uds now?
[15:42] <kwwii> if anyone needs to get in touch with me please send an email
[15:42] <kwwii> andreasn: next week is UDS...we have a design sprint this week
[15:42] <andreasn> ah, cool
[15:43] <kwwii> this is a crazy week, working very hard in a small room with the team and mark
[15:44] <kwwii> sounds like fun, eh?
[15:47] <andreasn> well, hopefully you'll come up with some nice stuff
[16:10] <mac_v> kwwii: what are you guys basically , discussing about? any apps or ... is it all , full-palm-scan-required hush-hush stuff ;p
[16:12] <mac_v> full-hand*
[17:16] <kwwii> mac_v, DanRabbit: seen this yet? http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2009/11/humanity-style-icons-liferea-fusion.html
[17:18] <mac_v> kwwii: yea , but doesnt that needs code change in the apps , so that the icons dont get displayed in the menus or app themselves?
[17:20] <kwwii> mac_v: yeah, but we're working on that ;)
[17:20] <mac_v> kwwii: also , do we really want all the icons to be greyscale :/  ... there is a thing of one too many ;p
[17:21] <knome> kwwii, don't forget to ask under what license the work is going to be published
[17:22] <andreasn> kwwii: you're working on that? cool
[17:23] <andreasn> how are you solving it?
[17:23] <mac_v> kwwii: aernt all the messaging apps using just the messaging menu? and only the message-new?
[17:23] <mac_v> ... so are you folks considering expanding the icons used by the applet?
[17:24]  * mac_v has been asking for that for a long long time ;p
[17:33] <kwwii> mac_v: yes
[17:33] <kwwii> and also we are looking into a way to have the gtk theme define whether it is dark ar light and choose icons appropriately
[17:34] <mac_v> kwwii: yeah , mpt mentioned that idea of using the text color in the icons
[17:35] <kwwii> well, this is something different but close
[17:35] <mac_v> kwwii: andreasn mentioned that mccann was also interested in getting a patch for that
[17:35] <mac_v> kwwii: oh ok :)
[17:35] <kwwii> in the gtk theme we will set a variable "dark" for dark themes
[17:35] <kwwii> and then the icon lookup will look for *-dark icons
[17:35] <thorwil> what about medium themes? ^^
[17:35] <mac_v> ;p
[17:35] <kwwii> lol
[17:36] <kwwii> screw them
[17:36] <mac_v> kwwii: hmm , that still ends up the need to make 2/3 different icons.. :/
[17:36] <kwwii> mac_v: yepp, no way around that I fear
[17:37] <mac_v> kwwii: which is a bit tedious , rather the -symbolic method sounds good ,  i heard it was do-able
[17:37] <mac_v> ah , well what do i know ;p
[17:37] <kwwii> mac_v: well, I guess we should have a longer discussion about this then ;)
[17:39] <mac_v> kwwii: andreasn knows more regarding this , he seems to be away...  he mentioned mccann liked the idea and said it was possible to do it as part of the panel code , so that the panel decides the color of the icon.
[17:39] <andreasn> in a meeting at work, will reply later :)
[17:39] <mac_v> ;)
[17:41] <thorwil> ouch. http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/763/ilame.jpg
[17:42] <mac_v> thorwil: the article?
[17:42] <thorwil> via http://doctormo.wordpress.com/2009/11/10/ubuntu-karmic-review/#comment-4029
[17:43] <mac_v>  lol ... troy_s
[17:43] <mac_v> ;)
[17:44]  * ckontros waves
[17:45]  * thorwil shakes
[17:45] <mac_v> thorwil: too much dribble , eh? ;p
[17:45] <troy_s> thorwil / ckontros / mac_v - Greetings.
[17:46] <troy_s> mac_v: Maybe.
[17:46] <mac_v> troy_s: thorwil: most of the design team are all OSX fans .. so no surprise there ;)
[17:46] <troy_s> mac_v: It's lame.
[17:47] <mac_v> yeah , a bit too similar
[17:47] <troy_s> mac_v: Spreads more of the typical rubbish about Software Libre imitation / duplication.
[17:47] <troy_s> mac_v: It destroys our credibility as a culture, further blemishes Canonical's credibility as a company, and, in the end, is just utterly lame.
[17:47] <thorwil> one should see past their results to instead wonder how they get there
[17:48] <troy_s> mac_v: Although, I guess when the lead marketing fellow doesn't even pronounce Ubuntu properly, what can we expect? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8326264.stm
[17:48] <ckontros> :P
[17:48] <troy_s> ckontros: Welcome back eh?  lol.
[17:48] <thorwil> recently read from some author: never copy ideas. steal them! make them your own
[17:48] <troy_s> thorwil: Amen.
[17:49] <troy_s> thorwil: Well actuall the Amen was for the former.
[17:49] <mac_v> troy_s: the "store" was named so because they intended to sell stuff in later versions... if you want more lame check this > Bug #419295
[17:49] <troy_s> thorwil: And that is a quote from Pablo Picasso I believe - trivializing his own work via self deprication.
[17:49] <ckontros> troy_s: Naa just home a bit early. Radiator on the wifes car blew. Was slow @ work so I decided to take a half day.
[17:49] <troy_s> mac_v: But the point is that we had repositories _long_ before those other companies.
[17:50] <troy_s> mac_v: The decision to title it 'store' anywhere is a blatant myopic decision.
[17:50] <mac_v> ;)
[17:50] <troy_s> thorwil: If memory serves me well it was something like "Good artists borrow.  Great artists steal."
[17:50] <troy_s> thorwil: But again, in context, it was coming from a visionary and a master.
[17:50] <thorwil> call it "Access to our repositories of ancient origin"?
[17:51] <troy_s> http://arthistory.about.com/b/2009/01/26/good-artists-borrow-great-artists-steal.htm
[17:51] <troy_s> thorwil: LOL.  Yeah... very Indianna Jones.
[17:52] <troy_s> ckontros: Have you seen the first sign of a closet group at Microsoft making design strids?
[17:52] <troy_s> strides even.
[17:53] <ckontros> Should I read back for a link?
[17:54] <troy_s> ckontros: I'm trying to find a video demo.
[17:54] <ckontros> k
[17:54] <troy_s> ckontros: I hate to say it, but the music play mode is very stylized and actually innovative as opposed to the crappy 'wet floor' Apple duplication / imitation / iteration umpteenth thousand with coverflow rip offs.
[17:55] <troy_s> ckontros: Note the use of typography at the top of the image http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b11EF0x9G68&feature=fvw at around 55 seconds.
[17:55] <troy_s> ckontros: The typography work when it is playing is pretty darn impressive.
[17:55] <ckontros> Ahh.. New Zune. Yeah. If it played FLAC and simply acted like a HC to transfer music to, I might actually buy one.
[17:56] <troy_s> ckontros: God no... its still toxically crippled.  But I'm trying to find a video on the music playing look.
[17:56] <ckontros> 'twas a god video on the Xbox font development as well. I think I sent you that.
[17:58] <troy_s> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYAghfCV4y0
[17:58] <troy_s> ckontros: 1:32 - very lovely typography work.
[17:59] <troy_s> ckontros: And what's more - I know I don't believe I am about to say this about Microsoft - it's original and defines its own style.
[17:59] <ckontros> :P
[17:59] <ckontros> Transition effects are real nice.
[17:59] <troy_s> ckontros: The full bleed off with typography is pretty darn tight looking.
[17:59] <andreasn> mac_v: kwwii, I think mpt's *-symbolic idea sounds fair, mccann said he could look into it, but he's quite busy in general. I guess the other approach could work as well
[17:59] <troy_s> ckontros: It does a bunch of typographic style play during playback.
[18:02] <ckontros> troy_s: http://gizmodo.com/5395720/ask-the-artist-how-windows-7s-iconic-home-screen-evolved
[18:02] <mac_v> kwwii: andreasn: the gtk idea would work , but it would be better if mpt's idea is done :)  if mccann can do it , i guess someone else in the UX team can also do it ...  if dont how mpt mentions then the text and the icons will be the same color , and match perfectly
[18:02] <mac_v> s/if dont/if done
[18:05] <kwwii> mac_v: cool, we will definitely need to get this done for lucid, so I guess it is really important that we have a session at UDS about it
[18:05] <troy_s> kwwii: Greets.
[18:05] <troy_s> ckontros: Wow that's pretty cool.
[18:06] <mac_v> kwwii: if the symbolic thing is done , there are a few other places where such icons can be used too
[18:06] <troy_s> ckontros: It's pretty slick when someone shows their work in progress versions.
[18:06] <ckontros> I thought it was interesting.
[18:07] <mac_v> troy_s: note , Windows capped the image sizes ;)
[18:07] <troy_s> mac_v: They are just proofs of principle mocks ... I could care less about the sizes. Interesting to hear the process...
[18:08] <mac_v> troy_s: yeah , the process was quite interesting :)
[18:09] <troy_s> ckontros: http://gizmodo.com/5226696/windows-7-release-candidate-1s-best-surprise-new-features
[18:09] <troy_s> ckontros: Lol... I wonder what Shuttleworth and the rest of our community would say with that ballsy background.
[18:09] <troy_s> ckontros: Good on them!
[18:10] <ckontros> Yeah. That was really cool. Alot of fun. :)
[18:10] <troy_s> http://gizmodo.com/photogallery/windows7backgrounds2
[18:10] <troy_s> ckontros: Going to be difficult for everyone to retrofit their 'Must have dark corner, must not be contrasty, must not have any thematic...' discussions eh?
[18:11] <troy_s> ckontros: Typical dated minimalist myopic thinking.  Dare I say postmodernism has _finally_ hit mainstream.
[18:12] <ckontros> Who knows.
[18:12] <ckontros> I'm just trying to fins someone to take over Studio art.
[18:13] <ckontros> Take it to the next level.
[18:13] <coz_> zniavre_,  did that work for your icons?
[18:13] <ckontros> I'll do what I can for Lucid but welcome anyone to come in and do the job right.
[18:14] <coz_> ckontros,  next level?
[18:15] <troy_s> ckontros: I heard you were thinking of Tendrils?  SUSE just jumped on that dead trend... if you are going to follow a trend, go with disco.
[18:15] <ckontros> coz_: Something far above what it is now.
[18:15] <coz_> ckontros,  in terms of desktop images?
[18:15] <coz_> what specifically?  I just got here so....
[18:15] <ckontros> troy_s: Yes, it has been a thought. I was gonna work on a edgy variation but havent had the time. Hopefully this week.
[18:16] <troy_s> ckontros: This guy's work http://www.flickr.com/photos/signalnoiseart/2491620479/in/photostream/
[18:16] <troy_s> ckontros: Bloody brilliant.
[18:16] <coz_> troy_s,  a bit busy that piece no?
[18:17] <troy_s> ckontros: http://www.flickr.com/photos/signalnoiseart/4089680981/
[18:17] <troy_s> coz_: Lol... you missed the previous discussion...
[18:17] <coz_> oh
[18:17] <troy_s> coz_: A desktop is a place where people live, it should be alive.
[18:17] <troy_s> http://gizmodo.com/photogallery/windows7backgrounds2
[18:17] <troy_s> coz_: Postmodernism hit mainstream apparently.
[18:17] <ckontros> coz_: Everything. I'm gonna just refresh the theme and make a icon set based on Breathe but I have no thematic as of yet. Has to tie into the site as well. I'm looking for someone to come in with a concept that can execute it. (with technical help on course)
[18:17] <troy_s> ckontros: (Side note, look at the ad in that last link... lol)
[18:18] <coz_> troy_s, I could never work with that stuff on the desktop :)
[18:18] <troy_s> coz_: I think it is bloody refreshing to see.
[18:18] <coz_> troy_s,  I would rather a mid range grey  lol
[18:18] <troy_s> coz_: Well, sadly, my two desktops are 18% middle grey.  Ugh.
[18:18] <coz_> :)
[18:18] <coz_> troy_s,  easy work environment :)
[18:19] <troy_s> coz_: Painful, but it works for value comparisons.
[18:19] <coz_> absolutely
[18:19] <troy_s> ckontros: Wow... looks like he did the Legacy work.
[18:19]  * ckontros has been using kwwii's butterflu for weeks w/Hanzo. http://www.flickr.com/photos/kwwii/3865853724/
[18:19] <coz_> troy_s,  my african masks are far too garish and too ethnic still to be considered
[18:20] <ckontros> *butterfly
[18:20] <troy_s> ckontros: http://www.sci-fi-o-rama.com/2009/07/30/james-white-tron-legacy-poster/
[18:20] <troy_s> ckontros: James White.
[18:21] <troy_s> ckontros:  http://veerle.duoh.com/art/comments/james_white/
[18:21]  * ckontros tries to hide his, um, "excitement".
[18:21] <troy_s> ckontros: Good Canuck!  Nova Scotia.  Woop.
[18:22] <coz_> mm to each their own I suppose
[18:23] <troy_s> ckontros: http://blog.signalnoise.com/
[18:23]  * ckontros clicks again.
[18:23] <troy_s> coz_: I think it is pretty damn refreshing stuff. The geometry work is amazing.
[18:23] <coz_> troy_s,  I suppose  ... alot of photoshop work there
[18:24] <troy_s> coz_: All of it. But to suggest that the tool gave birth to that is folly. If that were the case, all we would need to do is buy people copies of Photoshop (and in fact, that is indeed what is peddled in the marketing campaigns somewhat subtly)
[18:25] <coz_> troy_s,    well I realize the concepts  are individual  but the process of achieveing them is photoshop
[18:25] <coz_> too bad it wasnt done in inkscape
[18:25] <ckontros> Uh no. There's nothing there you cant do with other tools.
[18:25] <troy_s> coz_: Not going to happen until the developers start listening to the needs of the audience.  Mind you, if all we care about is 22 pixel icons, it is irrelevant.
[18:26] <ckontros> Hell, that style has been here for a long time.
[18:26] <coz_>   :)
[18:26] <troy_s> ckontros: To be fair, the performance issue in Inkscape is a show stopper.
[18:26]  * ckontros notes, "other tools". :P Corel? :D
[18:26] <troy_s> ckontros: Actually, it is right in our demographic - he just pastiched it and made it contemporary again with some clever work.
[18:27] <troy_s> ckontros: Sort of unfortunate that CDraw never got released from Xara - Xara _really_ had performance - especially in the gaussian blurs.
[18:27] <ckontros> troy_s: Sure. I'll contact Soini to do Studio's art. :P
[18:27] <coz_> troy_s, figurative pieces are nice
[18:27] <coz_> not for ubuntu I would expect
[18:28] <ckontros> troy_s: Didn't Xara's code get pulled to Inkscape?
[18:28] <ckontros> Oh. Gotta go for a couple. bbs
[18:28] <coz_> ckontros,  I dont xara follow svg standards at all
[18:28] <troy_s> ckontros: The missing component - the manner it wrote to canvas and the optimizations, I don't think ever got released as Libre.
[18:28] <ckontros> Ahh...
[18:31] <troy_s> Some pretty amazing processing demos on this fellows site... http://www.flight404.com/blog/
[18:31] <troy_s> http://www.flickr.com/photos/flight404/sets/72157622560778471/
[18:32] <troy_s> s/processing/Processing
[18:36]  * mac_v realizes that troy_s likes shinny sparkling stuff ;p 
[18:36] <coz_> troy_s,  are y ou suggesting that these images are  good for an ubuntu version as default images?
[18:36] <mac_v> troy_s: those pics are great for addverts and stuff, but how long can you stare at them as a desktop?
[18:36]  * mac_v would start having an eye-sore
[18:36] <coz_> mac_v,  I agree
[18:36] <coz_> mac_v,  not at all appropriate for desktop use
[18:37] <troy_s> mac_v: Hrm... I'd say Windows7 did a little homework :)
[18:37] <troy_s> mac_v: I think the whole point everyone is missing is that we aren't working in banks.
[18:37] <troy_s> mac_v: Go out and look at what _typical_ people put on their desktops.  Go look at what they use for decoration.  Examine those trends and how they are inherently attached to the audience at hand.
[18:38] <troy_s> mac_v: We have this hideous believe in Libre culture that we need to be clinical, sterile, and that all of art / design is static and mathmatical.
[18:38] <troy_s> mac_v: In reality, it is no such creature.  It is reactionary, active, and dynamically shifting.  It is response to culture.
[18:38] <mac_v> troy_s: i think you are mistaken , with a typical user and power user... the typical user *never* changes the default wallpaper
[18:39] <troy_s> mac_v: Ugh.
[18:39] <troy_s> mac_v: You sound like Hollywood.
[18:39] <kwwii> Fill:
[18:39] <troy_s> mac_v: I'll make you a wager.  Go to your friends desktops and look at them.  I will bet you that one in ten is default.
[18:39] <mac_v> lol ;)
[18:39] <kwwii> wow, that was close
[18:39] <troy_s> mac_v: Those 'estimations' are simply far from reality.
[18:41] <mac_v> troy_s: our friends are power users , they are not an average user... an average user is a non-tech savy user... i was mentioning that... the most advanced among those average users , use family portraits....
[18:41] <mac_v> which is really sad :(
[18:42] <troy_s> mac_v: The typical AVERAGE USER knows how to change their desktop.
[18:42] <troy_s> mac_v: Sorry.  That is just an incorrect assumption.
[18:42] <troy_s> mac_v: But go out and look around you at coffee shops and libraries and such places if you don't believe me.  You will see their dogs, cats, children, etc.
[18:43] <mac_v> troy_s: those are among the 'family' ;)
[18:43] <troy_s> mac_v: Even more so, the discussion misses the point.  The default wallpaper is _always_ changed (hell even Steve Jobs said that) but it is iconic of what you attempting to communicate.
[18:43] <troy_s> mac_v: Which is precisely why Leopard pushed their Time Machine theme and Windows7 went to that contemporary set of wallpapers.
[18:44] <mac_v> troy_s: the default wallpaper must express the spirit of the OS and not just an artistic design
[18:44] <troy_s> mac_v: There is nothing worse than underestimating the intellect of your audience.  _Nothing_.
[18:44] <troy_s> mac_v: I'd say they are one and the same.
[18:45] <coz_> troy_s,  that underestimating statement I agree ith
[18:45] <troy_s> mac_v: A default wallpaper - hell _anything_ communicates.  It could communicate "we have no identity"
[18:45] <mac_v> +1^
[18:45] <mac_v> ;p
[18:45] <troy_s> mac_v: The whole point of all of this is that _everything_ communicates, _everything_ speaks in a language whether you want it to or not.  Look at that iLame sillyness I created...
[18:46] <mac_v> i meant the +1 for the Underestimating
[18:46] <troy_s> mac_v: The 'language' chosen to represent Karmic is simply and fundamentally flawed.  It speaks design duplication / imitation / etc.
[18:46] <coz_> troy_s,  wow I never expected an understantement :)
[18:47] <coz_> understatement
[18:47] <mac_v> troy_s: the iLame was a good example .. not sure if the design team ripped off or somehow the ideas ended up creapy similar :/
[18:48] <troy_s> Wonderful discussion guys, but unfortunately my 'three-mouse-wheel-spins-to-get-to-my-year-of-birth-in-a-webform' grinding of teeth need to be sealed to prevent further damage to them.  :)
[18:48] <troy_s> mac_v: Ripoff.
[18:48] <troy_s> mac_v: Unless you live in a rock, you know what to touch and what not to.  Unfortunately our _entire_ culture looks to Apple and MIcrosoft as opposed to looking at life and where it is going.
[18:48] <coz_> well a desktop image must be artistically sound... simple  and unobtrusive
[18:48] <mac_v> coz_: amen :)
[18:49] <coz_> :)
[18:49] <troy_s> coz_: A desktop image should be what embodies the project. Maybe its radical revolution.  Maybe it is a completely different thought.  Maybe it is stale fat bankers in a kiosk listening to musak.
[18:49] <coz_> troy_s,  but still must maintain those three values
[18:50] <troy_s> coz_: Disagree.  People will change them anyways.  It is as much a marquee and billboard in every single screenshot as it is pure utilitarian design.  To presuppose exactly what a desktop should be also presupposes that you are dealing with a _singular_ audience.
[18:51] <coz_> troy_s,  I have clients that do not change ...for example..jaunty's default background
[18:51] <troy_s> coz_: So the question is - what connotes more value?  A voice or pure utility (knowing full well that just about every single person on the planet knows how to change a wallpaper)
[18:51] <troy_s> coz_: Unfortunate.  But that is a flaw with the interface design then, isn't it?
[18:51] <troy_s> coz_: A trip to Starbucks would reveal that short of _everyone_ in there with a laptop, a media player, a phone - has probably changed the default background. :)
[18:52] <troy_s> coz_: Maybe that is a testament to an interface presupposing something about an audience without knowing it?  ;)
[18:52]  * troy_s jets.
[18:52] <coz_> troy_s,  true  but you cant control someones preferences
[18:52]  * troy_s to be continued.
[18:52] <mac_v> troy_s: again , the coffee show users are power user , hence they roam with their laptop , they will always change the wallpaper , so why are we targetting them?
[18:52] <mac_v> coffee-shop*
[18:54] <coz_> true
[18:55] <coz_> I think the only wallpaper offered on ubuntu that was nearly decent was the jaunty default...not perfect but certainly unobtrusive and  tolerable
[18:55] <troy_s> mac_v: Reinforce your guesses with research.  My mother in law changed her wallpaper.  Go to a University?  Anywhere.  It is simply underestimating the ability of a vast number of people that have grown up with technology.
[18:56] <troy_s> coz_: And guess which one gained the most discussion and commentary?
[18:56] <troy_s> coz_: The one kwwii created for Hardy.
[18:56] <coz_> ooo
[18:57] <coz_> let me revisit that wallpaper   hold on
[18:57] <coz_> oh god
[18:57] <coz_> I hated that wallpaper
[18:57] <coz_> :)
[19:00] <thorwil> mac_v: changing wallpapers is sometimes among the first things a novice learns. there was also an anecdote of employees (secretaries and such)changing BGs despite a lockdown that was supposed to be in place
[19:00] <zniavre_> coz_,  good evening , no it does not work , i guess i have to compile xchat to change the trayicon
[19:02] <mac_v> troy_s: not a guess :) ... well , to give a family reference... My father has never changed the wallpaper , and he uses the system daily... 5days a week and so dont several of folks i know of the similar age group
[19:02] <mac_v> thorwil: ^ , they just say "meh" what do I need to change it for?"
[19:02] <coz_> zniavre_,  yeah that was the other options given on that link
[19:02] <coz_> zniavre_,  sorry to hear this though
[19:02] <zniavre_> yep
[19:03] <zniavre_> a bit complicated to submit an humanity xchat icon  :o)
[19:03] <coz_> zniavre_,   y ou could go to #xchat and discuss this although I think they will offer up that same link I gave you
[19:04] <coz_> zniavre_,  unless you can get ahold of one of the developers
[19:06] <mac_v> thorwil: we are thinking from our perspective... sure, it is among the firs things i do too , but i was surprised by their response , they really dont care what the wallpaper is and they never wanted to change it , they dont even change the default theme ... very rarely they ask , how do i set my grandchilds photo or something...
[19:06] <thorwil> mac_v: my experience is entirely different
[19:07] <thorwil> mac_v: a whole group of mainly middle-aged mothers. all of them enjoyed chnaging wallpapers and did so more than once
[19:08] <coz_> well sure   they are mothers :)
[19:08] <mac_v> thorwil: I'v seen sooo many systems with the same old XP default wallpaper and wondered how they even stand it ;)
[19:08] <coz_> god I hate that one too :)
[19:08] <mac_v> for ~5-6yrs... they'v had the same one ... argh!
[19:08] <coz_> I have even seen it offered for ubuntu :(
[19:09] <mac_v> lol  , i have a wallpaper changer which changes the wallpaper for every 10 mins ;p
[19:10] <thorwil> kwwii: do cabs in dallas accept 3 passangers?
[19:11] <ckontros> I would imagine.
[19:13] <thorwil> ckontros: cabs in some places have a panel in between for security reason, leading me to wonder if that implies a restriction to 2 passengers max
[19:51] <troy_s> mac_v: I think the research doesn't validate the claim.
[19:53] <mac_v> troy_s: lol , i'm not claiming, but that was *just* my personal experience... anyways... might be cultural differences are in play here...
[19:54] <troy_s> mac_v: I personally think we really need to back the 'logic' up with testing.  My bet is that if you stood on a downtown streetcorner and asked "Who changed their wallpaper", the result would be pretty overwhelming 'yes.' Again though, that is really missing the whole discussion point.
[19:54] <troy_s> mac_v: My cheek is numb.  Ach.
[19:55] <mac_v> anyways , its pretty late here... ttyl :)
[19:55]  * mac_v $cd bed...  nite all :)
[21:59] <DanRabbit> kwwii: yea, I've seen those. They are cluttering up gnome-look 0.0