/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/11/10/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

emmaPretto: :P01:58
Pretto:>01:59
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* persia peers about10:00
czajkowskipleia2: very quiet...10:01
persiaczajkowski: I'm expecting https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania to start soonish10:04
czajkowskipersia: I gathered that10:05
czajkowskiusually they're here before ye guys asking when does it start.10:05
persiaIndeed :)10:06
persiaWell, I don't think we'll have the meeting.  10 minutes in and the candidate isn't present (and hasn't been), and no quorum.10:10
persia(or maybe we'd have quorum if people were poked, but no point without a candidate)10:11
czajkowskiheh10:13
lifelesspersia: hi, was sprinting, so tz fail.11:05
lifelessbut it looks like it didnt matter anyhoo11:05
persialifeless: Didn't matter at all, as it turns out.11:21
lifeless:)11:36
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* GrueMaster adjusts toothpicks in eyelids for better reading.12:59
dyfet*yawn*13:00
NCommander#startmeeting13:00
MootBotMeeting started at 07:00. The chair is NCommander.13:00
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]13:00
NCommandermorning all13:00
JamieBennettmorning :)13:00
* NCommander pokes dyfet davidm persia ogra GrueMaster 13:01
GrueMasterI'm already here.13:01
dyfetpokes back13:01
* NCommander also pokes StevenK 13:01
* ogra falls over13:01
davidmHello NCommander13:02
NCommandermorning davidm13:02
* asac waves13:02
NCommanderhey asac13:02
JamieBennetthey asX13:02
JamieBennettlol13:02
JamieBennettdamn keyboard13:02
JamieBennetthey asac13:03
NCommander[link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/2009111013:03
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/2009111013:03
asachope you don't mind if i lurk to touch base this meeting ;)13:03
NCommander[link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/LucidSpecifications13:03
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/LucidSpecifications13:03
* NCommander waits another minute for everyone to appear before starting13:03
JamieBennettNCommander: The first spec (yours) has a dead link13:04
dyfetfail13:04
* NCommander forgot to fix its URL when I renamed the specs ...13:05
JamieBennettmobile-lucid-arm-alternate-images13:05
NCommanderFixed13:05
* NCommander notes for the firs ttime since I attended this meeting, there are NO action items13:06
NCommander[topic] Specification Review13:06
MootBotNew Topic:  Specification Review13:06
NCommander[topic] ARM: properly support alternate images in addition to live (NCommander)13:07
MootBotNew Topic:  ARM: properly support alternate images in addition to live (NCommander)13:07
NCommanderRegistered in Launchpad, and I wrote out a basic spec for it outlying the basic jest of it for quick completion during UDS13:07
NCommander[topic] ARM: 2D launcher for UNR (JamieBennett)13:08
MootBotNew Topic:  ARM: 2D launcher for UNR (JamieBennett)13:08
ogra_grr13:08
* ogra_ wonders how his reconnct moved to that inconvenient time :/13:08
JamieBennettMostly done apart from action items13:08
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NCommander[topic] ARM: Device Tree support (JamieBennett)13:08
MootBotNew Topic:  ARM: Device Tree support (JamieBennett)13:09
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JamieBennettThis is half done, finishing it today.13:09
NCommander[topic] ARM: lightweight webkit based browser (dyfet)13:09
MootBotNew Topic:  ARM: lightweight webkit based browser (dyfet)13:09
dyfetThis might be a firefight at UDS :)13:09
NCommanderdyfet, I'll bring my bunker gear13:09
* ogra is testing midori since a week ... 13:09
asacwhat alternatives are currently tested for browser?13:09
* NCommander has been using Chrome13:10
ogracould someone pick up epiphany13:10
asacanyone tried to build the latest chromium dailies?13:10
NCommanderogra, epiphany-webkit, or epiphany-gecko13:10
dyfetI have looked at chrome.  I added to the spec what I think are the requirements for something to be selected13:10
asacepiphany-webkit is the only thing that exist in karmic13:10
dyfetTrue13:10
plarsI can look at epiphany13:10
NCommanderasac, chromimium for ARM might be a good idea, if someone is willing to sacrifice a goat to compile it.13:10
asacits a bit immature with rough edges, but i think that would be sorted in lucid timeframe13:10
dyfetI agree it is a possibility13:11
asacNCommander: you have a native ppa, right? can you try to just copy the latest dailies there?13:11
ograNCommander, doesnt matter ... for now we should simply get an impression on the usability issues of $browser vs firefox13:11
NCommanderasac, won't work, the build system I believe requires cross-compilation due to a dependency on ia32-libs13:11
asacNCommander: afaik we fixed that13:11
asaci remember that we had that spinning in some ppa13:12
NCommanderasac, someone should update the wiki ;-). Poke me after the meeting, and I'll be glad to kick it into my PPA13:12
asacright ... will do13:12
NCommander[action] ogra to report back on midori usability13:12
MootBotACTION received:  ogra to report back on midori usability13:12
ograin any case each of us should test one of the available briowsers for a few days13:12
NCommander[action] NCommander to report back on Chromium Browser's usability13:12
MootBotACTION received:  NCommander to report back on Chromium Browser's usability13:12
ograto see the difference in handling etc13:13
NCommander[action] dyfet to report back on epiphany-webkit's usability13:13
MootBotACTION received:  dyfet to report back on epiphany-webkit's usability13:13
NCommanderAnyone else want anything?13:13
plarsdo we have others?13:13
ogra(not on arm yet, just to see how they work differently, so we can bring impressions to the discussion)13:13
NCommanderplars, Internet Explorer in WINE13:13
* NCommander runs13:13
ograNCommander, that will only work if we have wubi for ARM :P13:14
plarsok, serious options?13:14
ogradunno, dont we have a virtual package you can search for ?13:14
NCommanderplars, Konquerer is KHTML based13:14
* ogra tries x-www-browser13:14
NCommanderprobably worth looking at13:14
ogranot really as an alternative across all images though13:15
plarsI can look at it, but probably overkill if we are not using the kde libs for anything else13:15
NCommanderOr Fennec, which is what Maemo 5 uses13:15
ogranope13:15
NCommanderogra, I just bring it up as a possibility due to the fact its a different rendering engine13:15
ograthey use firefox with nokia hacks in maemo513:15
ograno fennec13:15
ograand fennect is unusably slow on my n90013:15
NCommanderOh, then I'm out of date13:15
ograthe maemo browser is cool though13:16
ograi really like it13:16
asacfor fennec: i think we would need to do an up-to-date fennec to tell whats right or wrong ... the archive version is outdated, because everything newer needs not released xulrunner13:17
ograwould be worth getting it into the archive imho ... but i'm nopt sure all nokia patches are  public13:17
NCommanderasac, I think for this, we could accept hand-compiled packages13:17
NCommanderasac, for purposes of evaluation13:17
asacyeah. should be possible to get fennec up somewhere13:17
ograwell, i tested the very latest fennec on the n900 when i got it ... which is about 4 weeks ago13:17
ograand it was compiled optimized for the platform already ... still to slow though13:18
asachmm... ok13:18
NCommanderThe problem is gecko is a bit of a memory hog13:18
ograbut we should indeed test it on *our* arches13:18
ogran900 is nothing we actually care for officially ...13:18
ograso is someone eager to try fennec for a few days ?13:19
NCommanderasac, would you like the action item to test fennec?13:19
asacright. i think we should at least check it .... also i can ask someone who i think still works for nokia on heir browser13:19
asacNCommander: i have no hardware ;) ... i can take action to check how to build the latest and make a package if thats feasible13:19
ogragetting their maemo browser in would rock for handheld devices ...13:19
ograi'm not sure it provides anything we could benefit from on the desktop though13:20
NCommanderogra, I'd like to know how they got Gecko to run so smoothly13:20
ograasac, usability testing to give a rundown during the BoF is the most intresting part atm13:20
ograi dont think you need to test on armel right now13:20
ogra(and indeed we should get you HW ASAP)13:21
ogradavidm, ^^^13:21
asacok. i can do that13:21
davidmNCommander, they separated rendering from display13:21
ograright13:21
asaci can also take action to talk to the nokia guy i think would know what they did to gecko ... but unlikely to test the maemo browser myself before UDS13:21
NCommanderInteresting13:21
NCommander[action] asac to test fennec and report back13:21
ograthey render the whole site in advance in ram and then have a panning window for the offscreen site13:21
MootBotACTION received:  asac to test fennec and report back13:21
NCommander[action] asac to talk to Nokia on their optimizations to gecko13:22
MootBotACTION received:  asac to talk to Nokia on their optimizations to gecko13:22
ogramove on ?13:22
NCommanderanything else on this spec?13:22
NCommander[topic] ARM: Per SoC Power management improvements (ogra)13:22
MootBotNew Topic:  ARM: Per SoC Power management improvements (ogra)13:22
ogrameh13:23
ograugly one ...13:23
ograi'll felsh it out more but there isnt much i can add yet before i get something from the vendors13:23
ogra*flesh13:23
NCommander[topic] ARM: Sleep/hibernation support and testing (ogra/GrueMaster)13:23
MootBotNew Topic:  ARM: Sleep/hibernation support and testing (ogra/GrueMaster)13:23
ograi hope we have enough of them in place at UDS for input13:23
* GrueMaster follows ogra's lead.13:24
ograsame thing ... we dont have armel HW with batteries at all yet13:24
NCommander[topic] ARM: Make gcc default to ARMv7 and Thumb2 (ogra)13:24
MootBotNew Topic:  ARM: Make gcc default to ARMv7 and Thumb2 (ogra)13:24
ograso resume from suspend might be tricky to test at all13:24
ograhibernate will definately work13:24
ograNCommander, that one should be removed13:24
GrueMasterogra: we don't need batteries for sleep/hibernation testing.13:24
ograits was moved to doko_ already and i think its already implemented13:24
NCommanderogra, wooo, first spec implemented!13:25
ograGrueMaster, we need support for the power button to wake up the thing13:25
GrueMasteryes, but that shouldn't have any thing to do with battery or not.13:25
NCommander[topic] ARM Softbootloader (NCommander)13:25
MootBotNew Topic:  ARM Softbootloader (NCommander)13:25
* NCommander coughs13:25
GrueMasterAs long as it shows up as an acpi event.13:25
ograGrueMaster, hibernate should theoretically work though (since that resumes from a normal bootprocess) suspend needs additional kernel side support13:26
NCommanderGrueMaster, this is ARM, no ACPI13:26
ograyeah13:26
NCommanderWhat little power management we have is APM based I believe13:26
persiaThere's APM, which tends to work13:26
ogracall it "PM" event :)13:26
ograpersia, good to see you back btw :)13:26
GrueMasterok, still learning the arm stuff.13:26
ograACPI is BIOS based ... no BIOS on arm13:27
NCommanderGrueMaster, ACPI braindamage was fortunately x86/amd64 specific13:27
ograNCommander, so what about softbootloader ?13:28
NCommanderThe spec and blueprint have been recycled13:28
ograany solution in sight ?13:28
NCommanderBut we still don't have kexec() on ARMv7 so ...13:28
NCommanderThis spec probably will end up deferred again until theres some change on that end13:28
ograi thought it only breaks on imx5113:28
ograbut works on dove13:29
NCommanderogra, if it works on Dove, thats news to me.13:29
ograi thought you said that during karmic13:29
NCommander[action] NCommander to investigate kexec() on ARM13:29
MootBotACTION received:  NCommander to investigate kexec() on ARM13:29
NCommanderogra, based on the mailing list traffic, kexec is completely broken on armv7 SoCs.13:29
ograwell, we should test it in lucid at least13:30
NCommander[topic] UMR: Moblin Remix Reloaded (persia)13:30
MootBotNew Topic:  UMR: Moblin Remix Reloaded (persia)13:30
ogracan you prepare some testing mechanism we could use to check if its working or not ?13:30
ograthat could be part of the spec for lucid13:30
NCommanderogra, I'm not even sure if the spec is actually needed if UEFI on ARM pops into being.13:31
ograi doubt many people on the ML have the HW we look at13:31
ograUEFIU on ARM needs vendor support13:31
ogra*UEFI13:31
davidmUEFI is not expected in this cycle13:31
persiaThat's mostly a discussion item: there's a lot of stuff that still doesn't fit in the archive, and needs to have a sufficiency of interested parties.13:31
ograthats as utopic as hoping for a standardized uboot across all vendors :)13:32
davidmUEFI might make it in the next cycle or the one after that, but not expected now.13:32
asacok, so the UEFI spec can be defferred and removed from the list? or do we still want to investigate proactively this cycle?13:32
ograwell, would be good to have a small overview of what it is and how we can benefit from it13:33
davidmI personally think we can remove it for this cycle and just talk to ARM about it since they are trying to drive it.13:33
ograbut beyond that i dont expect that we implement anything13:33
* ogra wouldnt mind an informational spec 13:33
asacok. so make a low prio informational spec out of it ... or defer?13:33
NCommanderasac, the later I think13:33
ograasac, up to you :) make a decision ;)13:34
NCommanderWe should maybe also have a spec on implementing a generic second stage bootloader (ala elilo), if UEFI isn't going to pop into existance for six months to a year ...13:34
asacok. lets defer that spec then13:34
davidmWorks, we can talk to Dave from ARM over beers :-)13:34
ograNCommander, i doubt that helps us much more than softbootloader13:34
asacgood idea ;)13:34
ogra++13:35
NCommanderbeer++13:35
NCommander[topic] Establish test procedures and documentation for new hardware (plars)13:35
MootBotNew Topic:  Establish test procedures and documentation for new hardware (plars)13:35
plarsThis is basically initial testing of what works/doesn't for new boards, and documentation of whether each things works, any workarounds required, etc.13:35
plarsMostly this would be targetted at new ARM devices where hardware is often in limited supply at first, but no reason why it couldn't be applied to other devices such as netbooks.13:35
NCommanderplars, we might want ot extend it to include having new SoCs in the Ubuntu installation manual ...13:35
ograNCommander, any reason you skipped persia and StevenK ?13:36
NCommanderogra, I skipped over StevenK cause he's not here. I didn't skip over persia13:36
JamieBennettUMR: Moblin Remix Reloaded (persia)-space"13:36
ograright13:37
JamieBennett(apart from the junk on the end of the line)13:37
ogra:)13:37
NCommanderplars, so anything else on this one?13:37
plarsnot unless somone has questions, feedback, etc13:38
NCommander[topic] move debian-cd for imx51 completely to redboot-tools (ogra)13:38
MootBotNew Topic:  move debian-cd for imx51 completely to redboot-tools (ogra)13:38
ograneeds felshing out ... but i have a detailed plan13:38
ogra*fleshing13:38
NCommanderA plan is good13:39
ogra:)13:39
NCommander[topic] clean up d-cd armel backends to remove a ton of code duplication between imx51 and dove (NCommander)13:39
MootBotNew Topic:  clean up d-cd armel backends to remove a ton of code duplication between imx51 and dove (NCommander)13:39
NCommanderThis is depwait partially on ogra's spec, but I want to rip out the partitioning code from the backends and create a generic create-partition-map script13:39
NCommanderOr at least, have some sorta partitioning library13:39
ograits also related to the ext2/3 spec13:40
NCommanderyeah13:40
NCommanderand in addition, if we add anymore arm+uboot SoCs, the backend's code duplication problem going to simply grow13:40
ograsame for other bootloaders13:41
ograi dont think thats a uboot specific issue13:41
NCommanderI'll probably do some work on straighting this code out before UDS, get the low hanging fruit so the speak.13:41
NCommander[topic] stacked squashfs builds for live images (separate rootfs and kernel/modules completely) (ogra)13:41
MootBotNew Topic:  stacked squashfs builds for live images (separate rootfs and kernel/modules completely) (ogra)13:41
ograyeah !13:41
ogramy favorite one :)13:42
* NCommander notes that if this spec gets implemented, I will love ogra long time13:42
ograneeds fleshing out (as all my specs)13:42
ograand is not easy to explain in words ...13:42
ograand as well is somewhat half in the foundations team realm13:42
NCommanderogra, I'm vaguely reminded of the bundles discussion at UDS jaunty13:42
NCommander[topic] HDD based Recovery Images (NCommander)13:43
MootBotNew Topic:  HDD based Recovery Images (NCommander)13:43
NCommanderI spoke to davidm on this one. I'm going to kick it into foundations team realm, as its really theres, and not ours13:43
asacright ... just wanted to ask. sounds like something the whole platform would benefit from13:44
ograyeah13:44
JamieBennettindeed13:44
NCommander[topic] extX images versus vfat (NCommander)13:44
MootBotNew Topic:  extX images versus vfat (NCommander)13:44
ograyou truncated the title on the wikipage13:44
JamieBennettogra: refresh13:44
NCommanderogra, I fixed it13:44
ograheh13:45
NCommanderThis spec is multi-aspected, and part of it overlaps into the foundation team (specifically usb-creator, do we want to have that also move to extX images)13:45
ogranot really13:45
NCommanderI had a thought we could do what we do for UNR, and make ARM ISO images for SoCs with sane partitioning layouts13:45
ograeeek !13:45
NCommander;-)13:45
ograplease no isos on armel13:45
ograits hard enough to install them13:46
NCommanderThe big issue with implementation is that we need a non-root replacement for mtools13:46
ograso lets not add another complex hurdle13:46
ograright13:46
NCommanderAnd I'm not even sure what options we have13:46
ogranbd can mount images in userspace13:46
NCommanderogra, nbd?13:46
ograand there are surely also fuse based solutions13:46
ograyep13:46
ograyou can loop mount images as nbd images13:47
NCommanderogra, right, but whatever we need has to be in hardy (or backported), and then blessed by Canonical IS13:47
ograwell nbd surely works for that ... for fuse we probably need something backported13:47
NCommanderogra, the other headache is that we need ext2 images for Dove, but probably imx51 would want ext3/4, so we need to handle multi-filesystem support13:48
NCommander(woo, fun!)13:48
ogra(note that nbd is not sexy but can provide a solution here)13:48
ograwe surely dont want ext2 at all13:48
NCommanderogra, I plan to poke Marvell on seeing if we can figure out why u-boot won't read form an ext3 partition at all13:48
ograelse you end with corrupted filesystems if you just kill your live session13:48
NCommander*from13:48
ograyou only need ext2 for /boot, dont you ?13:49
ograthe spec is for the live image partition13:49
NCommanderogra, *shiver*, I was trying to avoid multi-partitoin images for Dove13:49
NCommanderBut obviously that pipe dream just died.13:49
ograits about that darn ppp package issue actually13:49
dyfetah13:49
ograwe wont need to switch to ext* if we can fix that one on vfat :)13:49
asacif its just the long version string of ppp i could see if i can upload that with a more compressed version ;)13:50
NCommanderogra, there are other reasons we may want ext*13:50
ograNCommander, sure, but thats the main one13:50
asacwhats the problem in particular with ppp?13:50
NCommanderogra, specifically, hardlinks being one cited both myself for lool13:50
ograalong with the ability for symlinks13:50
NCommanderasac, filename gets truncated by mtools13:50
ograwell, it's not clear to me its mtools13:50
persiaThe hardlink/symlink thing is usually worked around by using a union filesystem from some image-within-the-image13:50
ogramight be parted and the fs we actually create with it13:51
NCommanderpersia, ew13:51
NCommanderAlternate images also loose any symlinks that they might had13:51
ograit definately needs a lot of research13:51
persiaI thought alternate images were designed to not need symlinks or hardlinks.13:51
NCommanderI think we need an action item, although I'm not sure what it was13:51
ograit might even be that its an issue that only shows with the hardy tools13:51
ograNCommander, [action] find the cause for ppp packagename truncation13:52
NCommander[action] ogra to find cause for ppp packagename truncation13:52
MootBotACTION received:  ogra to find cause for ppp packagename truncation13:52
NCommander:-)13:52
ograshould be the first forcus for that spec13:52
ograhuh ?13:52
ograyour spec, not mine :P13:52
NCommander[action] NCommander to find cause for ppp packagename truncation13:52
MootBotACTION received:  NCommander to find cause for ppp packagename truncation13:52
ograjust giving you a hand :)13:52
NCommanderAnyway13:52
NCommander[topic] rootstock gui (ogra)13:52
MootBotNew Topic:  rootstock gui (ogra)13:53
ograintegrate rootstock with either ubiquity or oem-config13:53
ograneeds fleshing out13:53
NCommander[topic] LSB Compliance testing (gruemaster)13:53
MootBotNew Topic:  LSB Compliance testing (gruemaster)13:53
ogra(part of it is also covered in the "multiarch execution environment with qemu static' spec)13:54
NCommanderI think we can kill this one13:54
GrueMasterIt's up there.13:54
ograyeah, not much point for it without moblin13:54
GrueMasterNot necessarily.13:54
NCommanderI'll knock it down to wishlist13:54
GrueMasterLSB != moblin.13:54
NCommanderGrueMaster, do we care without moblin?13:54
ogramoblin = customer for LSB testing though13:54
davidmWe don't care much I think13:55
GrueMasterThis is for LSB Compliance, not Moblin compliance.  This is tested on desktop.13:55
asacis that LSB compliance really a mobile spec?13:55
NCommanderasac, it was for the karmic cycle13:55
davidmWe should ask rickspenser or robbie if they care13:55
plarsShould we check with foundations first to see if it's something they need?13:55
persiaRather than argue about whether anyone cares, let it be "low priority", which means that if anyone cares, they can do it.13:55
* NCommander already kicked it down to wishlist13:56
NCommander[topic] UNE(UNR) Social Networking Applets (gruemaster)13:56
MootBotNew Topic:  UNE(UNR) Social Networking Applets (gruemaster)13:56
GrueMasterI wanted to bring this up at UDS.  Currently, UNR is the only netbook image w/o social networking software (twitter, facebook, etc).13:57
persiaAre you thinking something like libbickley integration, or just clients?13:57
asacwhat do other netbook images ship for that?13:57
GrueMasterKubuntu netbook.  And other distros have similar things.13:57
dyfetsome I see do so by redefining the desktop environment13:58
NCommanderasac, whatever Kubuntu netbook ships, we probably odn't want it for UNR13:58
asacwe have https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-lucid-default-apps and https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-lucid-social-from-the-start13:58
JamieBennettThe n900 uses the new Microfeed framework, maybe something to look at?13:59
ograJamieBennett, on maemo5 or 6 ?13:59
JamieBennettmaemo5 (http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/microfeed_could_be_to_status_updates_what_telepathy_is_to_instant_messaging/)14:00
GrueMasterBiggest issue I see is that UNR/UNE doesn't have the framework in place for this.14:00
ograwe have notify-osd though14:01
ograprobably you can merge parts of both14:01
asaci think desktop will built on top of gwibber14:01
asacwhich has a dbus daemon ... and a UI ...14:01
GrueMasternotify-osd is a popup message displayer.14:01
ograright, add a microfeed backend14:02
asacogra: thats gwibber-daemon most likely ... we could just reuse what desktop does there and see if we need more special UIs14:02
ograyeah14:02
GrueMasterogra: I was thinking of something more integrated into the UI.  Like Moblin and Kubuntu netbook have.14:02
dyfetWell, unr is much more application-centric14:03
ograyou think notify-osd isnt integrated enough in the UI ?14:03
asacogra: notify-osd just displays the notifications ;)14:03
JamieBennett:)14:03
asacbut the social from start spec from desktop team has the following points:14:03
ograyeah, but thats the UI side14:03
asac1. Microblogging from Session menu14:03
asac2. Converge social networking accounts into "About Me", make accessible from places like Session Menu14:03
GrueMasterNo, it isn't.  Not or some of the other widgits I see on other systems.14:03
ograor am i missing any other UI elements but messages14:03
ograah14:03
JamieBennettWe need someway of getting the messages in too - http://microfeed.org/ has a pretty diagram.14:04
NCommanderNot to cut you off, but these are implementation detials for UDS, and we're over time.14:04
ograsounds a bit like  overlap between mobile and DX imho14:04
NCommanderAnything quick before I go onto the next spec?14:04
NCommander[topic] lpia versus i386 (NCommander)14:05
plarswe are over time, are we overlapping with another meeting right now?14:05
MootBotNew Topic:  lpia versus i386 (NCommander)14:05
NCommanderplars, not according to the calendar14:05
NCommanderThis is pretty much our plan for the lpia port. Do we finally ax it or what not14:06
NCommander[topic] Efficient testing of install images (plars)14:06
GrueMasterIs there any benefit to the lpia compiler differences?14:06
MootBotNew Topic:  Efficient testing of install images (plars)14:06
plarsThis is to have a good set of tests to get good coverage of install-time options, with out having an explosion in the number of test cases14:06
NCommanderGrueMaster, what compiler differences? (we compile for i686 versus i586)14:06
persiaHas anything changed since last time for lpia?  Is there new information that it certainly will or won't be different at an instruction set level?14:06
NCommander[topic] UNE: replace the maximus blacklist(s) with proper info on the affected windows (persia)14:07
MootBotNew Topic:  UNE: replace the maximus blacklist(s) with proper info on the affected windows (persia)14:07
davidmWe kept the lpia alive due to potential Intel chips that might benefit from it.  None have come out so I'm thinking we drop lpia, but I'll double check that14:08
persiaMIssed that one.  I'll get something together for next week :)14:08
asachow much resources does the lpia port consume?14:08
davidmIs this a UDS topic or just better having a conversation with Neil?14:08
ograasac, if we actively maintain it its a lot14:09
NCommanderasac, its in maintenance mode right now, and fairly broken14:09
ograasac, if its just idling around without anyone looking (like in karmic) not much14:09
NCommanderIt would be a ton of effort to even bring it back up to installable14:09
asacok. but with dropping we mean: make it an unsupported arch (e.g. keep the whole infrastructure in place in case we need it still)=14:09
persiaAlthough it's probably worth asking the launchpad crew to turn it off for PPAs.14:09
davidmasac, we don't actively maintain lpia at all14:09
ograasac, i think we mean wipe it completely from everywhere ... including our minds and bad dreams14:10
* NCommander would approve of that action14:10
* ogra would be specifically intrested in the latter :)14:10
asachmm ... for me it feels like we shouldnt completely wipe it unless we are really sure we won't need it anymore14:10
plarsI think that's pretty much where we were at last cycle14:11
NCommanderasac, my opinion hasn't changed since last time, but if we do need lpia due to an incompatibility of i386, then we still have to rebootstrap it and everything14:11
GrueMasterwhich is wat davidm said he'd check on.14:11
ograright14:11
NCommander[topic] UNE: replace the maximus blacklist(s) with proper info on the affected windows (persia)14:12
MootBotNew Topic:  UNE: replace the maximus blacklist(s) with proper info on the affected windows (persia)14:12
persia<persia> MIssed that one.  I'll get something together for next week :)14:13
* ogra guesses thats mainly discussing with upstream14:13
NCommander[topic] casper cleanup/speedup (JamieBennett)14:13
MootBotNew Topic:  casper cleanup/speedup (JamieBennett)14:13
ograyay14:13
JamieBennettneeds flashing out, anyone have experience with this?14:13
NCommanderI think we need to bump this to Medium, as live CD boot speed can be painful14:13
JamieBennettNCommander: agreed14:13
ograJamieBennett, i know casper a bit14:14
persiaJamieBennett: I'd be happy to help review it with you.14:14
* NCommander knows it well enough to hit it with a sledgehammer14:14
JamieBennettgreat14:14
davidmguys I have to drop off now14:14
NCommandercasper is one of the few things that really needs minimal tweaks to work for new SoCs14:14
NCommanderdavidm, cya14:15
NCommander[topic] multiarch execution environment with qemu static (ogra)14:15
MootBotNew Topic:  multiarch execution environment with qemu static (ogra)14:15
ograand we should come to an end14:15
ografleshing out ...14:15
NCommanderogra, I rather finish the specs out if no one has any objections.14:15
ograsure14:15
NCommander[topic] Optimizations for SSD netbooks (dyfet)14:15
MootBotNew Topic:  Optimizations for SSD netbooks (dyfet)14:15
dyfetThis spec was a result of getting a netbook with ssd.14:16
dyfetI self documented which things I did and why to optimize it for unr.14:16
dyfetThe spec is intended to propogate this for general case users.14:16
ograbut sounds like very close to foundations space14:16
dyfetIt may be...14:17
NCommanderdyfet, might want to talk to mdz, he's done a lot with SSDs and boot speed I think.14:17
ograand i think Keybuk too14:17
* NCommander can't think who else has done work on this14:17
dyfetOkay14:17
dyfetWell, I can start by subscribing them to the spec14:17
NCommander[topic] ARM: kernel version (NCommander)14:17
MootBotNew Topic:  ARM: kernel version (NCommander)14:17
Keybukplease don't just do that14:17
Keybukplease actually come talk to me14:17
dyfetokay :)14:18
ogramake sure to tie him up to a chair and bring him to the BoF :)14:18
NCommanderThis is an informational spec just to make sure we have a proper roadmap for handling ARM kernels for the lucid cycle, and what versions we're going to peg various SoCs for the each stage of development14:18
ograi thought that was clear already14:18
ograwe stick with what we have14:18
NCommanderogra, this is more for any new SoCs we get, and what plans we have for new versoins from FSL and Marvell14:19
ogra2.6.3114:19
ograno further plans to my knowledge14:19
NCommanderogra, so ax this spec?14:19
ograafaik we plan to stick with .31 for all armel14:19
ograno, keep it and fill it with the actual info14:20
NCommanderogra, ah14:20
NCommander[topic] LXDE Community Development for Lucid (dyfet)14:20
MootBotNew Topic:  LXDE Community Development for Lucid (dyfet)14:20
ograso we can point users/vendors to the info14:20
dyfetThis was to track lxde efforts14:20
dyfetsince originally we did the specs for lxde for karmic14:20
dyfetbut it is now community driven14:20
NCommanderright14:21
ograwell, it was supposed to from the beginning14:21
NCommanderOk, w.r.t. to items on the agenda, I have UNR status, and the status of Desktop Switcher14:21
dyfetthis also was to have a single slot for discussion in uds for lxde14:21
ograwe should just give it a kickoff setup14:21
NCommanderbut no StevenK and no davidm, so I think these have to be a carry over14:21
NCommanderso14:21
ograyeah indeed14:21
NCommander[topic] Any Other Business14:21
MootBotNew Topic:  Any Other Business14:21
JamieBennettWe skipped, UMR: Moblin Remix Reloaded, was that intentional?14:21
NCommanderJamieBennett, I brought it up, persia said it needed discussion with vendors14:22
ograJamieBennett, well, NCommander said he didnt miss persia when i asked :P14:22
NCommanderand other people.14:22
* JamieBennett needs more sleep14:22
ograwell, i have one AOB item ...14:22
* NCommander needs some toast to put his marmite on14:22
* JamieBennett hasn't forgot14:22
ogradavid asks us to look over the sponsoring queue and indeed to do our merges asap14:22
NCommanderJamieBennett, i managed to buy five jars when I was in NYC 125g each :-)14:23
persiaI didn't say anything about vendors.  I said something about interested parties.14:23
ograso please everyone do some merges14:23
NCommanderpersia, sorry, misspoke14:23
JamieBennettNCommander: ah, cool14:23
* NCommander has only two merges, both of which require fakesyncing14:23
ograthe people who are not MOTU yet, please coordinate with someone with upload privs to get sponsored uploads14:23
ograNCommander, you are free to take more :)14:23
NCommanderBTW, if anyone is maintaining any package in Debian which is NOT migrating to testing, please poke me or a DD so we can fix that. Being able to autosync from testing is a good thing.14:24
ograhttps://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html has the list in case you dont know14:24
NCommanderogra, I'm spending some time fixing packages in Debian so they will autosync without me having to be constantly on it14:24
ograhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/Documentation14:24
ograhas infos on how to do it right14:24
NCommander(KDE is for instance stuck in Debian sid)14:24
ogragiven that we are supposed to do everything in bzr if possible14:25
ograso please take a look at that wikipage and pick some merges :)14:25
NCommanderAnything else before I close the meeting down14:25
NCommandergoing once14:26
NCommandertwice14:26
NCommanderGoodbye!14:26
NCommander(sorry for the long meeting)14:26
NCommander#endmeeting14:26
MootBotMeeting finished at 08:26.14:26
ograwow, that was 30 min over time14:26
asacthanks14:26
ograwe need to improve here :)14:26
NCommanderogra, our record is one hour 20 minutes over.14:26
ograthanks14:26
GrueMasterWe still missed UNR status and Desktop Switcher.14:26
plarsah yes14:27
asacif someone needs help/sponsorship on getting started on merges, feel free to ping me ;)14:27
NCommanderGrueMaster, we skipped it due to ENOSTEVENK ENODAVIDM14:27
asacquick question: stevenk usually does not attend this meeting, right?14:27
asaci assume its the middle of the night for him14:27
ograhe usually does14:27
asacoh14:27
asacso he works like me ;)14:27
plarsit's what, 1:30 AM there right now?14:28
GrueMasterActually, he does.  He just has a flight to leave for soon.14:28
ogra1:28 in sydney atm14:28
GrueMasterHe has a 7am flight.14:28
GrueMasterAnd he needs all the beauty sleep he can get.  :P14:28
plarswe are trying to teach him to be nocturnal14:29
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loologra: We do NOT create the FS with parted...15:07
loologra: parted might create a fs, but the real FS with actual contents is dd-ed on top of it15:07
loolasac: Problem with ppp is actually a problem with images containing .debs with "~" in their version number on a vfat image15:09
asachmm ok15:10
asacthanks15:10
loolasac: We used to release VFAT images for UNR (.img) and we are still using VFAT for arm images; ppp used to have a ~ in its version number which meant a ~ in the .deb filename; ppp was included in the pool/ in the images; however when debian-cd created the md5 list which is put on the CD, it would output a truncated filename15:10
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loolasac: 36092515:12
loolasac: If you download the jaunty UNR ISO, you should see that find pool -iname ppp\* lists:15:12
loolpool/main/p/ppp/ppp_245~.d15:12
asacok will check that15:27
ograasac, lool, we have a good bunch of packages with ~ in their name that dont cause probs ... its the lenght of the filename in combination with ~ here15:52
loologra, asac: Note that it's only for packages in the pool/15:57
loolNot all packages in the squash15:57
ograyeah15:57
ograwhich is why we dont hit it on desktop images15:57
ograppp is installed in the squashfs with karmic15:58
loolIndeed, there are other packages with ~ in the pool on this image; it's likely not just the presence of ~ but that's certainly a trigger15:58
ograyeah15:58
loolhttp://paste.ubuntu.com/315174/15:58
ograits more than one trigger ~ is one15:58
loolfind pool|grep \~15:58
ograyup, i did that before :)15:58
ograbut i'll leave the spec to NCommander :)15:59
NCommanderogra, lool w.r.t. to extX images, I thought part of the reason for doing that was also that having more robust filesystem would be a good thing, and we wanted to be able to take advantage of hardlinks and such. I'm looking into what causes the ppp bug, so hopefully can fix that even if we don't go with vfat images16:01
ograyes, that should be one of the focus points of the spec16:02
loolNCommander: Hmm yes, I think it's orthogonal16:02
loolI dont think the ppp bug should be part of a spec, it's just a bug16:03
loolExcept it's not trivial to reproduce   :-/16:03
NCommanderlool, I'll revise the spec. As it stands now, I'm pulling down everything to create alternates locally for i386 and armel so i should be able to start locally reproducing in a few hours16:03
loolOk; admitedly I wasn't reproducing in ideal conditions (using symlinks to the ftp mirror)16:04
NCommanderlool, ogra, lets move this to a more appropriate channel :-)16:05
ogra-arm16:05
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