[00:02] I could really use a recent kernel with xen pv-ops [00:03] cj: if you click through to bug 418130, you'll see that we included an EC2 kernel with 9.10 [00:03] Launchpad bug 418130 in Ubuntu Karmic "Karmic EC2 images don't use a karmic kernel" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/418130 [00:03] cj, but to answer your question, #ubuntu-kernel are the folks to talk to about it === dendrobates is now known as dendro-afk [00:13] mdz: ah, thanks === robbiew is now known as robbiew_ [01:02] hello to all. i have on ubuntu server a very strange problem with bind9. sometimes it works and sometimes it dont work. if i do at the moment a "nslookup www.wificom.ch" i get the error message "server fail !" accessing the site over the browser gives me the error message "ns.wificom.ch returned (NORECORDS)" [01:03] the strange thing is that bind9 worked with no probles last day but now i am asking me what the problem could be. [01:11] xperia2: Do you actually own that Swiss domain? [01:13] genii: yes ! it has worked also yesterday ! here is also the output of the "dig" command [01:13] http://pastebin.com/d65133b66 [01:13] the first part looks quiet good ! [01:14] the second part however refer to "67.215.66.132" [01:14] xperia2: whois is reporting correct IP of 80.254.182.249 [01:14] yes that is my fix ip to the server ! [01:14] ping works with no problem for the domain [01:15] just resolving of the domain dont work for some strange reason ! [01:16] xperia2: When did you make your last zone changes, and how? [01:17] genii: this are my last changes for bind http://pastebin.com/d65133b66 [01:17] Reading [01:18] if i want to run a graphical application on a ubuntu-server using X11 over SSH, does X11 need to be installed and running on the server? [01:19] genii: it looks like i have give you the wrong link ! this here is the right link with the bind9 zone changes http://pastebin.com/d4a8c82dc [01:20] for some strange reason "nslookup ns.wificom.ch" works and resolve good but all other domains like "nslookup www.wificom.ch" wont work [01:24] jjohansen, ping [01:24] could you look at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/udev/+bug/397187 [01:24] Launchpad bug 397187 in ubuntu-on-ec2 "[karmic] udev requires new kernel, breaks on EC2 (dup-of: 418130)" [Undecided,Confirmed] [01:24] Launchpad bug 418130 in Ubuntu Karmic "Karmic EC2 images don't use a karmic kernel" [High,Fix released] [01:24] sure [01:24] the final comments there. i think that CJ is saying that we dont have a paravirt driver available for karmic [01:27] hrmm, yeah I will take a look [01:27] xperia2: Looks like you may have some misplaced "@" there [01:28] yes i have removed the first mx line to the second bloch where also the maildomains for the other subdomains are declared [01:30] wanted to have separeted blocks for the domain and the mail resolving [01:30] will change it back in this case ! [01:36] xperia2: /etc/bind/named.conf.local has that box listed as it's master? [01:38] genii: yes http://pastebin.com/d45456a9 [01:38] xperia2: Ok. My dinner is ready, I'll return in 30-45 minutes [01:39] genii: okay ! have a nice dinner till later [01:41] ohh man this bind thing is really boring ! why does it dont work ! it is sure some stupid error. [01:42] Most often it's some typo in the file like a # instead of a ; for a comment line, or the yyyyMMddss isn't incremented each change, etc === chuck_ is now known as zul [01:53] genii: hmm whery strange ! have commented all mail entrys out and now it works ! [01:53] need to find what line of the mail entrys couses the problem ! [02:12] okay i think i have found the problem. [02:13] it works without any problems if i have only this line here [02:14] mydomain.com. IN MX 10 smtp.mydomain.com. [02:15] if i put a new line like this here for resolving mails for subdomains however it break bind9 [02:15] subdomain1.mydomain.com. IN MX 10 smtp.mydomain.com. [02:16] does anybody know how to resolve this problem ? [02:17] xperia2: What does: named-checkzone wificom.ch /etc/bind/db.wificom.ch report? [02:18] genii: if i do "sudo /etc/init.d/bind9 restart" it reports allways "OK" [02:18] xperia2: Thats not an answer to the question that i asked :) [02:19] i have assumed it :-) what exactly do i need to do for telling you that ? [02:20] xperia2: The named-checkzone will try to test your zone file and report any problems it can find. [02:20] So it may not report "OK" even if just starting up/restarting bind itself does [02:20] ahhh "named-checkzone" is a executable in this case ! okay give me a moment [02:21] okay at the moment it report [02:21] named-checkzone wificom.ch /etc/bind/db.wificom.ch [02:21] zone wificom.ch/IN: wificom.ch/MX 'smtp.wificom.ch' has no address records (A or AAAA) [02:21] zone wificom.ch/IN: loaded serial 2009111317 [02:21] OK [02:21] now i will try to comment out a subdomain mail line [02:22] So you need to declare smtp name before you can use it as something for other names to point to [02:24] ahhh true ! but is smtp really good for ubuntu-server postfix ? i have seen also other examples that use mail instead smtp [02:25] I don't think it really makes any difference [02:25] It's just a naming convention === chuck_ is now known as zul [02:26] ahh okay in this case i will stick with smtp as it is more clear for me [02:29] genii: great catch with named-checkzone [02:29] genii: named-checkzone wificom.ch /etc/bind/db.wificom.ch [02:29] dns_master_load: /etc/bind/db.wificom.ch:27: photos.wificom.ch: CNAME and other data [02:29] zone wificom.ch/IN: loading from master file /etc/bind/db.wificom.ch failed: CNAME and other data [02:30] xperia2: You might like to sometime check out the ubuntu-server guide, at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/ where DNS and other issues are covered at some length [02:31] xperia2: yeah - you can't have CNAME and anything else for the same label [02:31] genii: if i uncoment a a line for resolving the subdomain mail adress it produce a conflict with the allready existing subdomain [02:31] so i need to have for every subdomain a non CNAME entry hmmm [02:31] which is the best way to see all my installed packages to clean up if i can chose webmin or putty axx. [02:32] mail hosts shouldn't be CNAMES at all, btw [02:32] since they all get rewritten into the right hand side immediately [02:32] espacious: With dpkg --get-selections [02:32] dpkg --get-selections [02:32] got it. [02:32] thanks [02:32] dpkg -l [02:33] --get-selections will also tell you the packages you don't have installed [02:33] dpkg -l is better. [02:33] it has descriptions [02:33] genii: thanks for the docs link but as allways the documentations is not complete and it dont handle the things that i am working ! [02:34] espacious: Doesn't however tell you the installed/half-installed/deinstall states easily [02:34] i have allready looked at the configuration part for the dns part [02:34] xperia2: what made you think that you needed all those CNAMEs? [02:34] genii what command would? [02:35] lamont: as first i needed only subdomains and i have readed that it can be done very easy using cnames [02:35] (fwiw, CNAME basically says "anytime they ask for LHS, they really mean RHS", so having any other data makes no sense. On the bright side, bind9 made (or was it 8?) made that an error instead of just a warning that did the wrong thing [02:36] now i need the mail resolving for the subdomains and have started to put the new entrys [02:36] I fear that the doc you're reading isn't clear about the definition of "subdomain" [02:37] you only need MX RRs for whatever is on the right side of IN CNAME... if that needs to be different, then you don't get to be using CNAME [02:37] likewise, just because it doesn't have an A RR doesn't mean it can't get mail [02:37] didnt know that this will not work. Yeah exactly i have searched the web now for nearly about a week now but i can say you sure that subdomains arent documented very well. [02:37] mostly because the term is either meaningless or overloaded. [02:38] possible but it is used more and more with the time as the needing get bigger. [02:38] there are fully quallified domain names (FQDNs), which live in zones. zones contain one or more domains. [02:39] so, for example, archive.za.ubuntu.com lives in the ubuntu.com zone and has 'archive.za IN A ..." in the ubuntu.com zone [02:39] by traditional definitions, za.ubuntu.com would be a subdomain of ubuntu.com, but who cares? [02:39] lamont: okay i will do now the needed changes in my zone file and report back if it works ! [02:40] pulling resource records for za.ubuntu.com yields NXDOMAIN [02:40] meh. backwards on the example, fwiw [02:41] za.archive.ubuntu.com has an CNAME, archive.ubuntu.com has (more than one) A RR [02:41] zones always have SOA RRs and NS RRs or they don't work [02:42] lamont: is this line here okay ? [02:42] subdomain.mydomain.com IN A mydomain.com. [02:42] A RR takes an IP, not a name [02:43] what value does "subdomain" have? [02:43] in my case it is "photos" [02:44] and will the MX host for photos also be the MX host for mydomain.com? [02:44] for more to be exact [02:44] photos.wificom.ch IN A 80.254.182.249 [02:44] because "photos.mydomain.com IN CNAME mydomain.com" says "whenever they ask any question about photos, give them the answers for mydomain.com" [02:45] so if the MX list is the same, then CNAME will give you the MX list you want. if that answer is wrong, then it's not really "the same as", though it might have the same A RR [02:46] lamont: that with the MX Host is a litlle to much for my skills. i have postfix running on my ubuntuserver and i am able to send mails over a gateway [02:46] fwiw, "CNAME" ("Canonical Name") has to be the worst possible name for what it does [02:46] so... is wificom.ch also 80.254.182.249? [02:47] now i would like also to recieve the mails for all subdomains and maindomains on my ubuntuserver with posfix [02:47] and if I send mail to photos, does it go to that IP? [02:47] ah. [02:47] yes it goes all to this ip [02:47] note that if you have photos CNAME bar, then the mail will show up as 'user@bar', not 'user@photo'. This is the nature of email rewrites [02:48] which, if the users are supposed to be different, is not what you want. :-( [02:48] ah, so you're trying to move all mail handling to a diff IP than .249? [02:48] (and fwiw, your use of "subdomains" is what I would call 'hostnames"...) [02:49] lamont: wait wait ! i will post the right zone file for you [02:49] yeah - that should speed up the conversation [02:50] http://pastebin.com/d3f33dd47 [02:51] have now changed the cname entry for the subdomain as you have said [02:51] that's the whole file? [02:51] need only to make sure that resolving of the mail adress for the subdomain photos will works [02:52] lamont: at the moment yes will put with the time other subdomains [02:52] those times in the SOA are way long... if I ask you for a name, and you don't have it, my nameserver will cache that answer for a week, and I won't get the answer even if you add it in 3 minutes. (OT, but hey) [02:52] I avoid using a Neg cache ttl of anything over 3600, for anything other than localhost [02:53] so... in your file, "@" for a LHS (left hand side, first token) is == "wificom.ch", and any name that doesn't end with a '.' will have that appended to the name. [02:53] lamont: okay i will change that too. [02:53] so "photos.wificom.ch" could be written as "photos" [02:54] and line 22 could move up to between 15 and 16, and get an '@' [02:54] fwiw, dig requires a little bit more to understand, but is much more explicit in what it tells you than /usr/bin/host [02:55] okay give me just a moment to chnage this two things [02:57] * lamont wanders off for a couple min [02:58] lamont: sorry my laptop is for some reason heavy slow ! http://pastebin.com/d4f8820c [02:59] i have a lot of memory swap [03:00] no worries [03:01] lamont: are the changes done by me right as you have said or did i messed something up ? [03:01] so... when you've changed everything, and I send mail to user@www.wificom.ch, what IP should the mail be delivered to? [03:01] to the fix ip of the webserver where also the mail server and the dns server run and this is 80.254.182.249 [03:02] that is what will happen now. /etc/init.d/bind9 reload and then say 'dig mx www.wificom.ch' [03:02] normally i would however preffer to have the mail adress "user@wificom.ch" but i assume this is no problem [03:02] you'll get a CNAME RR, and then the MX rr for wificom.ch [03:03] okay will do ! [03:03] and the email will get rewritten into "user@wificom.ch" [03:03] that last bit being the somewhat sticky bit... [03:03] (depending on whether or not that's what you _want_ to happen) [03:05] lamont: it wont work as i have some syntax error [03:06] "near 'wificom.ch.': bad dotted quad" [03:06] the other thing about mail delivery: the rule is very simple. 1) fetch MX RRs for the target host. 2) if this host is in the list, remove every record with an equal or higher number in the priority field. 3) start with the lowest priority number and try them all until you run out. 4) if you still haven't delivered the mail, try A and AAAA RRs too. 5) try again later [03:07] its about this line here "photos.wificom.ch. IN MX 10 smtp.wificom.ch." [03:09] photos IN A wificom.ch. [03:09] wificom.ch. is not A.B.C.D [03:10] www.wificom.ch. 3600 IN CNAME wificom.ch. [03:10] wificom.ch. 3600 IN MX 10 smtp.wificom.ch. [03:11] those last 2 are what I get after I fix the photos line [03:11] okay think have found the problem ! [03:12] named-checkzone wificom.ch /etc/bind/db.wificom.ch [03:12] zone wificom.ch/IN: loaded serial 2009111325 [03:12] OK [03:12] http://pastebin.com/m50a96646 [03:13] that's after I munge a few things around, and drop the (now wrong) comment at the top, which also tells me that you started with the localhost file. [03:14] lamont: dig mx www.wificom.ch http://pastebin.com/d5c140ef2 [03:14] (a little reordering for clarity, and really pulling down the times in the SOA) [03:14] xperia2: that's what I'd expect [03:15] to better understand the dig output, see the output of: dig mx ubuntu.com. @ns1.canonical.com. [03:15] question is what you asked [03:16] answer is the answer [03:16] authority is the NS list for the zone that has the answers [03:16] additional is "other stuff you're probably about to ask for", and is not necessarily authoritative [03:17] lamont: okay will use your example zonefile! will now just dig mx ... [03:17] so when I'm reading dig output, I ignore missing stuff in additional, and get worried if it has wrong answers there. [03:17] /usr/bin/host has much prettier output, and is therefore much less precise [03:18] hear hear [03:18] I always prefer host for the first pass [03:18] twb: dig gets my attention, host gets maintained through the process of benevolent neglect. [03:18] and sometimes, I feel sad about that. [03:18] Or even getent hosts [03:20] xperia2: a bit more on those times (including the $TTL) - every answer your nameserver hands out comes with a "time to live" (TTL), which tells the requestor how long he may confidently cache the reply. That is, you are saying "here is the answer, and I promise that won't change for $TTL (seconds)" [03:20] promise accordingly. [03:20] lamont: okay i see now that the differnce is that ubuntu has AUTHORITY: 3 and i have AUTHORITY: 1 [03:21] ubuntu has 3 nameservers, you have one. [03:21] it differ also for ADDITIONAL: [03:21] Isn't it generally advisable to have a backup DNS? [03:21] ahh okay nice one :-) [03:22] twb: dont know where to put my other dns stuff ? some free dns resolver ? [03:22] additional is filled in as: "if I have the A RRs for any of the NS/MX hosts in answer, then additional, add them. If I don't, or run out of room, tough" [03:22] xperia2: therein lies the challenge [03:22] (finding a home for secondary) [03:22] zoneedit and dyndns [03:22] What could possibly go wrong? [03:23] twb: you trol., [03:23] * lamont relies on a network of friends-who-run-networks [03:23] More seriously, maybe hcoop (for personal stuff) [03:24] in the before time, one of the NS RRs for my home domain was palrel3.hp.com [03:24] or was it relay.hp.com. whatever, that's a decade old conversation [03:24] lamont: was that your workstation at work? ;-) [03:25] part of the NS RRset for 'hp.com'. I didn't admin it when my zone was added, but I was the one who dropped the zone as part of transitioning the administration of the machines to tier 2 support [03:26] may have been a diff host too, now that I think about it more. [03:27] lamont: if i compare the two dig outputs for me it looks like it should work as my dig output is the same as the one of ubuntu ! [03:27] and yes, I do know people who use dyndns and then update the host record in the registry so as to have the NS RR glue point to their machine. That way lies madness. [03:27] xperia2: right [03:27] lamont: there are little scripts to do that automatically [03:27] Erm, I meant to update the dyndns A record. Never mind, I'm dumb [03:27] twb: You mean dydns? [03:28] dydns == madness [03:28] ScottK: +999 [03:28] I was thinking ez-ipupdate and the other one that OpenWRT ships [03:28] well, the services out there.. dynamic zone updates (ala nsupdate) can be love. [03:28] They hook into dhclient or pppoe and do an https PUT or so at the end of it [03:30] lamont: i thank you a lot for your teaching and helping ! you are a great man ! :-) [03:30] no worries [03:30] the problem with DNS is that it really _is_ that simple. much of the confusion comes from people trying to understand it in the complexity they think it has [03:30] a last more general question before i quite. [03:31] i am planning since week to financial support ubuntu for theire great product especially the ubuntu-server [03:32] the problem is however the very high price in my eyes what they want for one year ! [03:32] i dont want to make them down or put the prices low as i know how hard is it to earn money [03:33] but from my experience the price for the ubuntu-server package is just a dream price and not a market price [03:33] dont know how much people buy this service packages but i itself would like to see some new service package [03:34] for private people like me that have a home server [03:34] I really don't have an answer to that - haven't ever looked into it [03:34] and dont use it in a company or for bussines [03:35] a good price would be about 40 to 60 Euros per Year or 50 to 75 USD [03:35] xperia2: For a home server user it is expensive. If you can't contribute in money, contribute in helping out. [03:35] xperia2: Generally home server users don't buy the support contract. [03:35] ScottK: I assume you'll be in dallas? [03:35] lamont: As long as this flu i currently have subsides, yes. [03:36] yeah - if it's like what I had, it sucks [03:36] yeah i prefer to spend money rather to help out as first i am not really that ubuntu geek and with the time i have really bad feelings about using ubuntu for having fun and knowing money could be needed for more success [03:37] and i dont think home users dont want to have a support package [03:37] this is something that ubuntu has to think about ! [03:37] xperia2: New people are the best ones for writing documentation for new people. [03:37] So there are contributions you can make. [03:38] i have lost more than a week for this dns stuff. with a home user service package it could be solved more faster and easy [03:39] and the best thing is people like lamont or other can earn additional money buy helping out ! i mean why does ubuntu dont provide this service to the public ? [03:41] xperia2: well, a fair chunk of my income derives from Canonical already... [03:42] from what i see and understand is that the ubuntu managment is loosing a lot of money becouse of this. lots of home users are using ubuntu and have problems. look only the ubuntuforums they are full of questions like how can i do this how can i make this ... [03:42] Why dont you provide for this people a service package and engage more people for solving this the professional way really ! [03:43] I haven't looked at the support packages Canonical offers (or others, for that matter), but I would think it reasonable to believe that the price is set in consideration of the costs of providing that service. [03:43] generally speaking, the open-source community has not embraced such a model. [03:44] lamont: i dont agree with you. first you need to ask yourself [03:44] administering a payment system for thousands of people helping others would likely not be cost effective for the company, especially when so many of us have no issue in doing it without charge [03:44] how much money would a home user spend for answering and solving his questions ! [03:44] xperia2: well, in my case? not much at all. [03:45] but then, I do have a bit of experience in s/w engineering and such. [03:45] i am speaking general about ubuntu as you have said the cost are high that why the price is high ! [03:45] (apt-cache show bind9 | grep Maintainer) [03:46] for me whit such a pilosophy you cant earn really money and that is why probably the open source is loosing money [03:47] xperia2: My experience is that most home users won't pay at all. [03:47] lamont: woow :-) [03:47] most of the folks I know doing support for fee are looking for clients with at least 12 computers, in an office, in order to consider taking them on as customers. [03:47] anything less than that costs them more money than they can possibly charge for it. [03:49] xperia2: I let others handle all the postfix questions though.... your bind9 struggles came across just as I was passing through, and CNAMEs are one of those not-understood things, so it seemed a good use of some time [03:49] My experience with small consulting jobs is that they just aren't worth the trouble (I've tried) [03:49] ScottK: +99 [03:49] mind you, for $100/hr, I'm willing to consider exceptions to the rule... :-) [03:50] somehow, most home users won't pay me that though. [03:51] esp just for the consult to see if I'll take them on. [03:51] that is, if I were doing that [03:51] I know somebody who asks 120 euro / h for programming jobs :P [03:51] lamont: this is a price that i will pay for a year :-) but look also how much does somebody cal you for problems in a year [03:52] xperia2: The problem is the expertise you want costs that much or more [03:52] xperia2: if I stepped up and answered every question like yours tonight, I'd be here 24x7 [03:53] i know that prices are high in the it world. but it looks like you dont want to understandme [03:53] ScottK: BTW, I got up to 40 euro for 2h from a home user (that I wanted to help for free), so don't generalise ;) [03:53] plus beer [03:54] I once got US$25 via paypal as a thanks, so I know it's not universally true. [03:54] Just not enough true to be worth the trouble [03:54] well, actually, this was for a non-profit, but he paid it himself [03:55] they run a local news agency as a group of volunteers [03:55] have 4 laptops running ubuntu, and sound didn't work, which wasn't funny as they provide local radio news ;-) [03:56] also, all local radio stations here run on Ubuntu + campcaster because thats' the only way they provide local news :-P [03:58] well okay your experince is sure also true on the other side as you have allready said [03:58] and also confirmed my version that [03:58] ubuntu is loosing good money by not providing a service package to there users [03:58] mostly becouse ubuntu will become problems with the costs as of the high prices ! [03:58] there are service packages, right? [03:58] xperia2: nothing stops anyone from offering ubuntu support for whatever they feel is a proper price. [03:59] Yeah exactly. Countrys that are unerdeveloped and dont have high living costs [03:59] xperia2: after being involved in running several companies over the past decade, I can tell you that there's a world of difference between answering questions in IRC when it suits my mood, and giving someone a phone number to call me (even just during business hours), and have to respond to their questions. [04:01] lamont: especially as often you have to investigate first too... [04:01] that you haven't found anyone offering support at the price point you want tells me that no one has decided it's worth it to offer that price point yet. [04:01] JanC: yep [04:02] lamont: i understand your position very good ! just wanted to answer t the fac if the costs are to high but the demand exist why not offering it by experts in countrys with less high personal costs [04:02] lamont: well, sometimes volume is a problem to offer lower cost too [04:02] JanC: big time [04:03] i mean in some countrys it people dont have even work and other earn maybe at maximim 300 USD per month [04:03] JanC: raise the price, the demand goes down... somewhere in there is a nice max in the income/week curve. [04:03] xperia2: and who are you saying should create this company to run support? [04:04] this are 3000 USD per year personal costs. i dotn understand really the ubuntu position why they dont offer a service package for private people ! [04:04] xperia2: there are countries where people earn < 10 USD / month too ;) [04:05] lamont: it should be sure ubuntu that organise that but the service could go over mail in english language like server-support-private@ubuntu.com [04:06] xperia2: every time I've seen a company _not_ offer a service, it's been because the projected income from the service did not justify the projected expenses to provide it. simple business. doesn't matter if you're selling soap, or computer support. [04:06] provided by sub companys or freelancer [04:06] lamont: that's not always true, there is also the need for money to do initial investments etc. [04:07] JanC: put together the proper business plan, and find funding. the cost of the money is just one more cost [04:07] making a business plan costs money too [04:08] and if you want to tie up millions in resources to get 10-20K net per year, you need to be a farmer.. because no sensible commericial lender will loan you that in general [04:08] ☺ [04:08] seems most farm loans are secured with land that the bank will sell to be developments if they ever foreclose. simple. [04:09] lamont: the cost arent the problem as you can start with people that earn 10 Euros per Month for answering the question. ! [04:09] well, the only bank in Belgium that saw a 30% increase in business last year was the farmers credit union ;-) [04:09] xperia2: after you vet them, and then there's the cost of administering the program. those would be the bulk of the expenses for it. [04:09] they are also one of the only banks that aren't publicly traded [04:10] what for a administration. i will goes all over mail ! [04:10] (they also own the largest internet bank & on-line trading website in Belgium though) [04:11] running everythin on linux ;) [04:11] private people write to a mail and explain her problems and wishes and the support answer it. thats way better than hanging for days in forums and waiting till somebody answer your question ! [04:11] xperia2: so lets say that I decided to start such a business. and lets say that you tell me you're a hot support guy and I should send you clients. how do I know that you are? how do I deal with the damage to my reputation for referring to you and you having unhappy clients? mitigating those risks all cost time, effort, and therefore money [04:11] xperia2: but professionals will also answer the easiest questions first [04:12] xperia2: and what you're suggesting is already done by the various support mailing lists and such, to quite an effective level once the requestor gets an understanding of how/where to ask [04:12] lamont: JanC: man this question is very easy ! [04:12] xperia2: trivial, actually. [04:12] which question? [04:12] JanC: his bind question [04:13] I didn't read that far back ;) [04:13] CNAME and other data [04:13] I once fixed someones IIS nameserver with the BIND documentation, so it can't be dificult ;-) [04:14] BIND issues are a bit like LDAP issues, in that the docs tell you how to manage the database, but the applications that use it are the ones that tell you what the data means [04:14] i am speaking about the question "how do I know that you hot support guy for my bussiness" [04:14] JanC: I prefer to fix IIS servers with a livecd [04:15] xperia2: ah, well that question - sure it's a simple one. It just requires time and effort to validate the answer in something beyond "trust me" [04:15] looks it is very easy: search for people in this countrys that have allready finished in the scool a it master or something like this [04:15] lamont: IIS DNS server works with BIND configuration files, but the IIS GUI fucks them up, so I told him to keep his hands away from the GUI ;) [04:15] well, that was years ago [04:15] heh [04:16] xperia2: such a search would not find me. [04:16] I doubt most peopel here have a masters ;) [04:17] lamont: well becouse you dont want. it would cost you maximal 5 minutes work to get your people with very high skills. do you want a example ? [04:17] xperia2: I hired into HPs MPE (OS) lab to work on device drivers prior to enrolling in a 4 year college. My studies were in electrical engineering. my paycheck was from software development [04:17] I'm not interested in starting such a business, so no... don't really need the example. [04:18] and I know plenty of people that have "proven" their technical abilities that I would never trust with supporting anyone. [04:19] If you want masters, go to #math [04:19] twb: slaves are better [04:19] wait. that came out wrong; [04:19] xperia2: looking back at your question, DNS is one of the more complicated things to understand [04:20] JanC: mostly because it doesn't actually use the data that it's storing, for the most part [04:20] JanC: isn't it basically just like NIS? [04:20] twb: only better, and different [04:20] Exactly [04:21] Maybe I'm weird in having grown up with NIS... [04:21] I remember when I was learning LDAP... my frustrations that none of the LDAP docs told me what I wanted... only to finally find that what I was actually looking for was documentation for the ldap-using app, not ldap [04:22] though the app's docs made little sense until I understood some LDAP, and back and forth we bootstrap [04:22] I don't have real experience with NIS, but even resolving basic DNS issues involves knowing what glue records & TTL are ;) [04:22] JanC: yep. [04:23] lamont: only a example for finding people that fit your needs for offering such a service. [04:23] and I don't pretend to be a DNS guru, but at least I know that ;) [04:23] go to the site it.com.mk visit the forum http://it.com.mk/forum/ go to the employment subforum [04:23] http://it.com.mk/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=136 [04:23] make a posting with the title "Ubuntu Specialist Wanted" leave your email and you are done. [04:23] though glue records can mostly be lalalaalalalalalalala for most basic questions that don't involve broken glue [04:23] BTW. Macedonia is that Land that have in all scools Ubuntu running :-) [04:23] Do you want me to tell this people arent in the position for solving problems like mine ? [04:23] xperia2: no. I want to not have to manage them. [04:24] and why do you think all questions need to be answered by the support [04:24] who said they do? [04:24] lamont: let's say that I recently saw a well-known conference website go off-line because of broken glue ;) [04:24] JanC: when glue is broken, it is the problem. when it's not, it's a non-issue [04:25] of course [04:25] since most people are hosting DNS $ELSEWHERE, glue seldom factors in. esp when we add in "make sure that your secondary is not one of the hosts in your domain" [04:26] lamont: I don't want to feed the owners of domains that have primary & secondary pointing to the same host within the domain ;) [04:26] having said that, it's _FASTER_ if you have all your nameservers inzone. [04:27] sometimes they're tricky though... they have 2 IPs that are on the same host. "much better" :( [04:27] and then they move and forget to change the glue too [04:27] lamont: didnt you said that the people arent proffesional enoght to answer all questions if i am not wrong [04:27] The normal answerable question will be answered other question that are specific can be put into a que. [04:27] I dont accepr just your thinking that such a service is to expensive and the people are to stupid to answer questions that are posted [04:27] day for day in the ubuntu forums. [04:27] xperia2: no. I said that if they aren't, then my reputation suffers, if I'm offering it as a for-fee service [04:28] lamont: depends if they live to tell the tale [04:28] This is why all my advice includes a halon discharge test [04:28] twb: lol [04:28] I think the issue is that it's often difficult to say how much time is needed to solve a problem [04:30] Regarding time estimates, I have had success with a 3-tuple approach: a "best case" estimate, a "worst case" estimate, and an "expected case" estimate. [04:30] The distance between them indicates to manglement in a measurable way the amount of risk/uncertainty [04:30] sometimes it takes 3 hours to solve a problem with somebody on IRC, but i doubt they would want to pay an industry-conform rate for that :P [04:31] JanC: well, IRC is for community, not industry [04:31] and sometimes after those 3 hours I have to tell them I don't know the solution (or there isn't one); will they still pay me? ;) [04:32] twb: what i answer for free, I can also answer for payment ;) [04:33] and i doubt an SMB would be happy with "sorry there is no solution" and then pay ;) [04:33] * lamont wanders off with family, fun though this has been. [04:33] I've also found on small jobs the no pay rate is pretty high, so in the unusual event I do them now, it's always pay in advance. [04:33] JanC: they don't have to be happy [04:33] lamont: have fun [04:33] JanC: they just have to pay [04:33] JanC: That also solves the will they pay if you don't fix it problem. [04:34] ScottK: I think my employers do it by an up-front credit check in advance, and forward defaulters to a collection agency [04:34] For small jobs it's not worth the trouble. [04:34] Yeah [04:34] well, if they have to pay for no solution, they won't ask next time... [04:35] I'm a one person company, so I don't have an office staff to deal with such things. [04:35] ScottK: that's why I work in a company [04:35] The company exists to insulate me from the "normal" people [04:35] lol [04:35] * ScottK is getting close to a decade of not having worked for a company [04:36]