[11:41] <nubae> highvoltage, ping
[11:46] <highvoltage> nubae: pong
[12:00] <nubae> heya... do u think it makes sense for me to apply to the council
[12:00] <nubae> or not yet really?
[12:13] <highvoltage> nubae: good question
[12:14] <highvoltage> nubae: I guess it depends where your heart lies, we've actually decided to make the term of the council only a year this time instead of two
[12:14] <highvoltage> so if you're not sure you could get apply next year too if you want, or now... it's up to you
[12:16] <nubae> do I guestt my question then is, what would you do in my position?
[12:25] <highvoltage> nubae: If you have the time and you want to do it, then why not.
[12:29] <nubae> do I guestt my question then is, what would you do in my position?i I''ll apply. mena, I doa ctually use 2 operating systnes, though -I'd say its about 80% ed/ubuntu  20% opensuse-edu at this point
[12:30] <nubae> motly bnecause I know edubuntu npw needs the lep
[12:31] <nubae> nad fromUInperspecitve its more familiar, and there si just a something,....
[12:31] <nubae> I dont know what... but a something that makes me just wanna use it more
[12:32] <nubae> its weird, because its not technical or political or whatever
[12:32] <nubae> maybe cause I've used it the longest and I feel llike part of  ¡a true team of people
[12:33] <nubae> had way more oncversations, been way way more involved in even the littlees of things....
[15:02] <highvolt1ge> nubae: sorry I got a bit distracted
[15:37] <jbicha1> wow, the opensuse edu distro released today is amazing http://lizards.opensuse.org/2009/11/17/opensuse-edu-li-f-e-creating-open-minds/
[15:38] <jbicha1> 1 of its features: it has the VirtualBox guest additions pre-installed so it just works in VirtualBox
[15:39] <jbicha1> it has a ridiculous amount of software (desktop & server) pre-installed
[15:48] <alkisg> *and* it has live ltsp... ;) What it doesn't have is debian policy, and giving back to upstream, so that other distros can get what they have... :-/
[15:50] <jbicha1> oh, that's too bad
[18:11] <jbicha1> sbalneav: do you think Edubuntu is not really sustainable?
[18:11] <jbicha1> with current manpower
[18:54] <nubae> yeah, opensuse-edu has a lot we can learn from
[18:56] <nubae> having been involved in its creation, I can tell you that one of the biggest strengths it has, but which is also a weakness, is the abilitiy to add software and implmenentatons without going through a rigiid protocol of inspection
[18:58] <nubae> I'd like to, if posssible, at least for the next vesrsion of edubuntu had a Sugar launch button like opensuse-edu has.... though ut requires packaging quite a number of sugar activities
[18:59] <nubae> not necesessarily a bad thing since that's where we can outdo opensuse-edu a bit, byt oytting newer, better and more tested sugar activities in there
[19:00] <nubae> what do u you guys think?
[19:04] <sbalneav> Well, that's what I've been tossing around this morning.
[19:06] <sbalneav> I'm certainly committed to Edubuntu for the next year.  But I'm beginning to wonder if, seeing as how stability is my bugbear, to make the leap to debian-edu, since we use most of their stuff, and fix the bugs THERE.
[19:06] <sbalneav> I dunno.
[19:06] <sbalneav> I'm of multiple minds.
[19:09] <sbalneav> The problem with *buntu, in general, imho, is we have a rigid protocol for ascending the ladder of "being able to do useful work"
[19:10] <sbalneav> but once you reach the top, or NEAR the top of the ladder, there's NO rigid system for ensuring quality.
[19:11] <sbalneav> gnome-user-manager went out the door without being able to *change a users password*.
[19:11] <sbalneav> How does that happen?
[19:11] <sbalneav> I'm not blaminganybody, we're all incredibly busy.
[19:11] <sbalneav> meeting 6 month release schedules.
[19:12] <sbalneav> but at some point something's gotta give.
[19:28] <highvolt1ge> sbalneav: I'm also interested in gedding involved with debian-edu
[19:28] <highvolt1ge> (well I've been for a long time)
[19:30] <sbalneav> Here's my thoughts:
[19:31] <sbalneav> Every  Edubuntu developer should become a debian-edu developer.
[19:31] <sbalneav> If we run into bugs in debian-edu apps, we *fix them upstream*, at the debian edu source.
[19:32] <sbalneav> for things that tickle nubae's fancy, like saccharine... err sugar (sorry, trying to lose weight) we work on getting them as options in debian-edu
[19:33] <highvolt1ge> althouh, in technical ubuntu terms upstream would mean gcompris, tux4kids, etc, but I understand what you mean in terms of fixing things in debian
[19:33] <sbalneav> Then, at the end of the day, we can just pull the debian-edu stuff in, and it all "just works"
[19:33] <sbalneav> BUT, und here iz ze big but...
[19:34] <sbalneav> 1) The debian edu devel pool is larger.  By working with them actively, we a) increase our own developer pool, and b) foster goodwill by helping them directly.
[19:34] <sbalneav> 2) we're still doing the same amount of WORK, we're just doing it at a different level.
[19:35] <sbalneav> I dunno, it's just an idea.
[19:35] <sbalneav> I'm just tossing out ideas as to how we can make this all more sustainable.
[19:36] <highvoltage> getting fixes in to debian is important in ubuntu so it makes sense
[19:42] <sbalneav> Lets get the elections over with, and keep our noses to the grindstone for Lucid
[19:42] <sbalneav> concentrate on getting buggies fixed.
[19:42] <sbalneav> but I think after lucid, we should start thinking about this sort of thing.
[19:44] <highvoltage> why wait?
[19:45] <sbalneav> Well, I'm starting the process in debian-edu now.
[19:45] <sbalneav> h0ger's given me some pointers, and I've got an account on alioth
[19:45] <sbalneav> Hop on in :)
[19:45] <highvoltage> sbalneav: what's the best way to get started?
[19:46] <sbalneav> Dunno.  Hold my hand, we'll do it together.
[19:46] <sbalneav> That came out... not quite the way I wanted.
[19:46] <sbalneav> You know what I mean :)
[19:58]  * Lns agrees w/ sbalneav 
[19:59]  * alkisg thinks it's kinda sissy, though... :P :D
[19:59] <alkisg> (the holding hands bit)
[20:00] <alkisg> (or maybe I'm just jealous for not having anyone to walk me through :D)
[20:11] <Lns> lol
[20:12] <Lns> this might be a crazy idea - but why not 'merge' operations of edubuntu and debian-edu? I mean, I don't know much about deb-edu... are they a separate dist? a metapackage? how do they work?
[20:13]  * Lns looks online
[20:13] <highvoltage> Lns: they are a debian pure blend
[20:14] <highvoltage> (well skolelinux at least)
[20:14] <highvoltage> which means that all their packages are in debian
[20:14] <sbalneav> well skolelinux IS debian-edu, and vice-versa.
[20:15] <sbalneav> here's the issue, as I see it.
[20:15] <sbalneav> skole uses kde, and kde-edu, plus some gnome apps
[20:15] <sbalneav> edubuntu uses gnome, kde-edu and some gnome apps.
[20:15] <HedgeMage> debian-edu started out as a package maintenance and advocacy/workinggroup, and eventually got to be a debian distro.... it kind of exploded in late 2000 when debian politics exploded and odile benassy and I left.
[20:15] <HedgeMage> I have no idea what they've done since.
[20:16] <sbalneav> Oooh!
[20:16] <sbalneav> excellent, glad you're here, HedgeMage
[20:16] <HedgeMage> np
[20:17] <sbalneav> So, to me, they're "edu with a kde desktop"
[20:17] <sbalneav> we're "edu with a gnome desktop"
[20:17] <HedgeMage> somewhat
[20:17] <HedgeMage> this is why I started frogandowl
[20:17] <sbalneav> but we've got similar packages, and similar goals.
[20:17] <sbalneav> HedgeMage: right.
[20:17] <HedgeMage> the edu stuff keeps getting chopped up along distro/wm lines
[20:17] <HedgeMage> And, once you marry to a distro, you are stuck with that distro's politics.
[20:18] <sbalneav> Correct.
[20:18] <HedgeMage> For example, in late 2000, the debian edu team exploded and died because people from debian main came over and started making demands that we change our documentation.
[20:19] <HedgeMage> They were offended that our ordering of packages and our package recommendations did not fit their political biases.
[20:19] <sbalneav> You and Odile left.  Who stayed, and did D-E "conform" in the end?
[20:21] <HedgeMage> Odile and I were the most active contributors at the end (many left before us).  A few newbies stayed, but they let Debian beat up on them.  In the end, I believe they compromised, making a rule that package listings would be alphabetical, and the project would not recommend specific packages in its docs any more.
[20:21] <HedgeMage> Which is sad, because most edu people come in not knowing Linux or what tools to use.
[20:21] <HedgeMage> Now, keep in mind that this was all nine years ago.  I haven't really kept tabs since.
[20:22] <sbalneav> You've been around with Edubuntu since the early days.  How would you feel about tighter ties to d-e?
[20:23] <HedgeMage> I think it'll end in distro wars and bad politics if debian main is still interfering as they used to in debian-edu's work.
[20:23] <HedgeMage> We are already hurting for contributors in edubuntu...I don't want to lose more to stupid politics.
[20:23] <sbalneav> hm
[20:24] <sbalneav> Yeah, I wasn't aware of all this.
[20:24] <Lns> Interesting
[20:25] <HedgeMage> It was a royal mess :(
[20:25] <sbalneav> I'm just trying to figure out how we can widen the pool.
[20:26]  * HedgeMage nods
[20:26] <Lns> I can't help but think of drastic change proposals to multiple edu-based projects in Linux/OSS, to become something bigger. I know most would disagree..but we *are* OSS in the end. If we had one massive edu-based project, or at least the support of most/all other OSS-edu projects, we could seriously be a force to be reckoned with
[20:27] <Lns> And we'd have our *own* politics. We could manage that apart from dists
[20:27] <Lns> and create rpm/deb/tgz/whatever ourselves
[20:27] <HedgeMage> Lns: I totally agree with you... let me tell you about something I am working on called Frog & Owl :)
[20:28]  * Lns listens
[20:28] <HedgeMage> Lns: I've been at this for a long time (I started using Linux in 1994, I started working with debian-edu in 1998), and I see that the whole OSS-edu movement is fragmented into insular parts -- mostly along distro and wm preference lines, but to a lesser degree along language/nationality...
[20:29] <HedgeMage> Lns: ...it's frustrating because of the duplication of effort, the bickering, and how much more we could be doing with more unified efforts.
[20:29] <HedgeMage> Lns: So, not long ago, I started a project called Frog and Owl -- we are still in the planning stages now, but we hope to be a central hub for open content (texts, lesson plans, etc) and open source edu solutions.
[20:30] <sbalneav> Some of us are members :)
[20:30] <HedgeMage> Lns: We want to track what's going on in those separate project and provide a unified portal...
[20:30] <Lns> HedgeMage: define portal pls
[20:32] <HedgeMage> Lns: both a place to find out about what's already out there, and a source of the development community and solutions that can then be ported to any distro... we basically want to be distro-neutral, do proof-of-concept stuff, and so on...eventually when we get to the point of funding stuff we have some ideas of software to put together, but that will take time, and who knows if the software needs will have changed by then
[20:33] <Lns> So a communications portal basically?
[20:34] <HedgeMage> Yep, for now.
[20:34] <HedgeMage> We can worry about our own development once we get that done
[20:35] <HedgeMage> Lns: so far, we have ubuntu and funtoo edu projects represented.  We are working on having a little more to show for ourselves then reaching out to others.
[20:37] <Lns> Well it sounds like a great project, I'm in
[20:37] <Lns> for whatever I can do anyway
[20:37] <HedgeMage> :)
[20:37] <Lns> Is there a website at all?
[20:37] <Lns> list, etc?
[20:37] <HedgeMage> join #frogandowl if you would ;)
[20:37] <HedgeMage> frogandowl.org
[20:38] <Lns> nice =)
[20:38] <HedgeMage> it's not got much yet... I'm getting ready to move, so I'm working in small dribs and drabs as time allows.
[20:38] <Lns> See, I think that's a great effort for edu. We can't be tied to distros, especially since everyone has their own preference. Our main focus needs to be education.
[20:38] <HedgeMage> exactly
[20:39] <Lns> We can be the glue for oss+edu
[20:39] <HedgeMage> yep!
[20:41] <sbalneav> I just want to help kids.
[20:41] <sbalneav> That's all I want to do.
[20:42] <HedgeMage> exactly
[20:42] <sbalneav> And I'm willing to do whatever I can, and/or have to, to do that.
[20:43] <Lns> =)
[20:44] <HedgeMage> :)
[20:44] <Lns> I feel the same. Once I set up my first ltsp network at a school, I was hooked. I want to make it as easy as possible for children to use technology. OSS+LTSP+Linux in general just seems to be the right thing to do. I'm going to try to deploy/manage as many of these as possible with my company.
[20:44]  * HedgeMage nods