[02:04] <giancast> Good night
[02:04] <giancast> There is anyone here can help me
[02:37] <lonchiton> can i force a thin-client to log into at the same computer?
[03:00] <sbalneav> Evening all
[03:02] <HedgeMage> hi, sbalneav
[04:26] <cprofitt> hey nixternal
[14:38] <jbicha> sbalneav & others, sorry I didn't stay around for the chat yesterday, the time zones are a bummer some times
[14:38] <jbicha> but thank goodness there are chat logs :-)
[14:39] <jbicha> I mean I like to read chatlogs, I don't know what other people think
[15:02] <sbalneav> jbicha: Morning
[15:03] <jbicha> sbalneav: you live in Manitoba?
[15:05] <jbicha> Google says we're only supposed to have a high of 25C tomorrow, time to get out my jacket I think :-)
[15:05] <sbalneav> jbicha: Yep.  Winnipeg, to be exact
[15:06] <jbicha> sbalneav: I've been to 8 provinces, only skipped Manitoba & Newfoundland
[15:06] <jbicha> my parents live in Alberta now actually
[15:09] <sbalneav> Wild Rose Country :)
[15:11] <jbicha> I saw freshly mowed grass today and the disturbing part wasn't that it was November but that there's so little grass and green stuff here in the desert
[15:14] <jbicha> anyway, interesting conversation yesterday
[15:14] <jbicha> contributing to debian is quite a bit more challenging than contributing to ubuntu I think
[15:15] <sbalneav> Well, the issue, as I see it, as I've always seen it, is one of resources.
[15:15] <sbalneav> Education isn't "sexy"
[15:15] <jbicha> how can you do the most good? to help the most people?
[15:16] <sbalneav> Hackers want to work on blingy new chat clients, and stuff like that.  Flashcard programs for 4th graders isn't high on anyone's priority list.
[15:16] <jbicha> well, Canonical obviously can't figure out to how to make a profit off of it & so it's not really too big of a priority this year
[15:16] <sbalneav> So, if the goal is "to help the kids"...
[15:16] <Ahmuck> isn't it possible to re-build a system without any further downloads?
[15:17] <Ahmuck> ie, via debs stored on machine?
[15:17] <sbalneav> We can either muddle away in our little camp, debian-edu can muddle away in their little camp, etc.
[15:17] <Ahmuck> sbalneav: if you want a flashcard program, use anki
[15:17] <sbalneav> or, those of us who ARE interested can start forming up into a bigger "meta-pool"
[15:17] <Ahmuck> i've been repeating that over and over.  someone needs to package anki for ubunut
[15:17] <sbalneav> Like Hedgemage is suggesting with her fron&owl.
[15:18] <Ahmuck> well, ok, i've been repeating that as well
[15:18] <sbalneav> Ahmuck: That was just a representive example.
[15:18] <Ahmuck> and caught a lot of flak from it
[15:18] <sbalneav> From who?
[15:18] <Ahmuck> those that are interested in promoting edubuntu needs to break away and do it
[15:19] <Ahmuck> soooo, are we at that point now?
[15:20] <Ahmuck> a self organizing group?
[15:20]  * Ahmuck hears a pin drop
[15:20] <jbicha> Ahmuck: what about http://packages.ubuntu.com/karmic/anki ?
[15:20] <jbicha> isn't it already in the repos?
[15:20] <Ahmuck> kewl
[15:20] <Ahmuck> was it in jaunty?
[15:21] <Ahmuck> i know i suggested packaging it for karamic but did not realize it happened
[15:21] <jbicha> it appears to be there from Intrepid on
[15:21] <Ahmuck> i'd package it if i had a clue how.  currently i build from source and then use checkinstall to create a deb
[15:21] <sbalneav> See, and this is the problem
[15:21] <Ahmuck> sooo, it's not included in the edubuntu release because?
[15:22] <sbalneav> Because you can't package
[15:22] <jbicha> we don't know what to put in the edubuntu release
[15:22] <sbalneav> because you're not doing the work to get it in there.
[15:22] <sbalneav> this is what I've been saying for some time.
[15:22] <sbalneav> WE NEED MORE *SSES AND MORE ELBOWS DOING MORE CODING.
[15:23] <jbicha> the new opensuse-edu is nice but do schools really need everything & the kitchen sink in their default install
[15:23] <Ahmuck> i'm not doing the work to get it there because i've not had anyone interested in ansering the multitude of questions that i would need to ask to learn ubuntu packaging
[15:23] <sbalneav> I'm saying the "you're not doing it" thing in jest, but that's our basic problem: too few people doing actual real work.
[15:23] <Ahmuck> sbalneav: u have a chicken/egg problem.  however, to birth new coders you first need a chicken willing to lay the egg
[15:23] <jbicha> but there is a bunch of education software out there that people don't know about
[15:24] <Ahmuck> sbalneav: r u willing to mentor me for ubuntu packaging?
[15:24] <jbicha> I agree that packaging & coding has a pretty high threshold
[15:24] <sbalneav> Ahmuck: I'm learning MYSELF at this point.  Since I'm mainly an "upstream guy", but yeah, I'm more than happy to pass things along as I learn
[15:24] <jbicha> I wonder if there's some way we could teach the kids to do it :-)
[15:25] <sbalneav> LaserJock's been teaching me some stuff, and I've been reading through the packaging guide.
[15:26] <sbalneav> But my goal is to become motu by Lucid's release..
[15:26] <jbicha> I've had a hard time finding interesting software that's not in the repos that is packagable, there is some interesting stuff that has potential debian licensing issues
[15:26] <sbalneav> If anyone wants to sign up for the march with me, fall in, soldier.
[15:26] <jbicha> and there's also some java apps but that looks like too much to chew for a first-timer
[15:27] <sbalneav> Packaging new stuff, IMHO isn't as much as an issue, as getting the bugs knocked out of the stuff we already have.
[15:27] <jbicha> ah, thanks for clarifying
[15:27] <sbalneav> Screem needs love. gpaint's got problems, etc.
[15:28] <sbalneav> Obviously, anyone who learns packaging can work on anything they want, but MY goal for lucid is actually spending most of this cycle testing the cr*p out of things, and gettiung the bugs fixed.
[15:29] <sbalneav> It wasn't my package to look after, but gnome-users-admin shipped in karmic with a bug that doesn't allow an administrator to change someone's password.
[15:29] <sbalneav> I mean, geez.
[15:30] <sbalneav> That's how I see it.  Now I'm just one guy, and nobody important, but I really want to see this LTS be something *stable* for the teachers/kids.
[15:30] <sbalneav> so at least, when they boot it up out-of-the-box, what's THERE will work for them.
[15:30] <sbalneav> We can always add new bling with the edubuntu-dev ppa's that we posted about.
[15:31] <sbalneav> Ahmuck: but yeah, I'll mentor you, and anyone else that wants it.
[15:31] <sbalneav> I can code in C, Python, Shell, I understand the autoconf system, etc.
[15:31] <sbalneav> all I need to learn is the packaging rules, and I'm golden.
[15:32] <jbicha> I see Open Source Education to have two main roles: provide quality educational software that gets better over time without being unaffordable to schools
[15:32] <Ahmuck> imho, you need a user on the EC
[15:32] <jbicha> ...and #2 preparing kids to be open source developers themselves, most colleges & universities sure aren't doing much that way
[15:33] <sbalneav> jbicha: well, that's 'cuz M$ gets in there, and gives them all complete labs worth of .Net tools.
[15:33] <Ahmuck> yes
[15:34] <jbicha> I think Java is #1 in the colleges.... & while that's kinda cross-platform, it doesn't fit well in Linux these days
[15:34] <Ahmuck> i'd love to be on the EC, however i tend to be a bit abrasive about what i think needs to be done from a (L)user's perspective
[15:34] <Ahmuck> and i'm not a programmer
[15:34] <sbalneav> Ahmuck: I was just about to say, why not run?
[15:35] <Ahmuck> but to have a QC team, you need someone that is a primarly a user, who asks stupid questions
[15:35] <Ahmuck> in addition, i think the EC needs to select a core of apps that are good, and user tested (ie children tested) and "sponser" those apps
[15:36] <Ahmuck> then it puts the pressure on the app designer/programer to fix up thier own app to get it into the coveted edubuntu set
[15:36] <sbalneav> So once again, I ask, are you going to put your name down to run?
[15:37] <Ahmuck> yes
[15:37] <sbalneav> I mean, personally, I'll take my name OFF, to let other people get elected.  I'm here ANYWAY, and I just put my name down because for a while it looked like NO-ONE was going to sign up.
[15:38] <alkisg> Is there a limit to the number of members? How many are we looking for? 5?
[15:38] <sbalneav> I don't know if 5 is mandated or not.
[15:38] <sbalneav> highvoltage: ping
[15:39] <alkisg> Me, and also nubae, can be left off if there's a limit...
[15:39] <alkisg> I'm going to start my phd anyway, so I'll have my hands full for the next 3 years
[15:39] <sbalneav> I'll gladly withdraw, to give others a better chance.
[15:40] <Ahmuck> i think people need to be activly involved in edubuntu/ltsp EC
[15:40] <jbicha> but back to the previous conversation, contributing to debian is scary, I mean almost all packages are owned by someone and I feel it's difficult to
[15:40] <jbicha> come in and try to work on their stuff
[15:40] <alkisg> I think edubuntu needs coders more than anything else...
[15:40] <Ahmuck> anywho, somethings come up that i need to attend to
[15:41] <Ahmuck> i think you would get more coders through sponsership/mentors
[15:41] <Ahmuck> but that might take three releases to get there
[15:41] <Ahmuck> it's long term planning
[15:41] <Ahmuck> rather than fire hose planning
[15:41] <alkisg> I don't think we have anyone for sponsoring
[15:41] <sbalneav> Well, we use a lot of debian's packages.  I'm all for having better integration between us and Debian, so long as we don't get pulled into a political morass like HedgeMage alluded to.
[15:42] <alkisg> !sbalneav++ :)
[15:42] <sbalneav> I'm just throwing out ideas.
[15:42] <sbalneav> I got no karma, except what I build up in real life :)
[15:42] <alkisg> No that was an "I agree" statement :)
[15:42] <Ahmuck> HedgeMage alluded to?
[15:43] <sbalneav> HedgeMage used to be involved with debian-edu, political battles in 2000, blah, blah, she left, came to us.
[15:45] <Ahmuck> i don't think working on someone else's stuff is scary.  if you can't get your contribution in, you create a ppa and or mirror and branch.  if your code is accepted by the community and it's truly oss, then the original author will intergrate or compensate ...
[15:45] <Ahmuck> bbl
[15:47] <jbicha> Ahmuck: well, neither you nor I have done it yet
[15:47] <highvoltage> sbalneav: pong
[15:49] <sbalneav> highvoltage: hey, is the council LIMITED to 5 people?
[15:49] <sbalneav> or can there be more?
[15:49] <Ahmuck> jbicha: not entirely true.  i'm currently in planning stages of branching out a project where to much bickering is happening and not enough action
[15:49] <Ahmuck> because i can't code, i'm going to sponser some coding and then start a re-write of the project
[15:50] <jbicha> Ahmuck: sorry, my last comment was prob a bit rude, I thought you said you hadn't done packaging yet
[15:51] <highvoltage> sbalneav: I don't think there's any hard limit
[15:58] <sbalneav> highvoltage: So, there's the potential that, so long as anyone who puts his/her name forward for the council, could just get it by "acclimation"
[16:01] <highvoltage> sbalneav: yes, although we're only electing 5 members in this election
[16:01] <jbicha> haha, so there is a hard limit :-)
[16:01] <highvoltage> jbicha: well it could be increased after the elections again, or even during the election
[16:02] <highvoltage> jbicha: but the election is currently for 5
[20:55]  * mhall119|work is applying for Ubuntu Membership in ~ 5 minutes in #ubuntu-meeting
[21:10] <sbalneav> Good luck!
[21:11] <mhall119|work> thanks