[01:46] <LIB53> can someone tell what dimensions i need to create my wallpapers
[01:47] <LIB53> i did 1600x1200. i think that might be too small
[12:39] <thorwil> http://bettertastethansorry.com/2009/11/eike-konig-everyday-is-like-christmas/
[12:47]  * darkmatter looks for something to do
[12:47] <darkmatter> and hello coz_
[12:48] <coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy  good morning :)
[12:49] <darkmatter> :)
[12:53] <darkmatter> today is a big day! I'm getting of my lazy butt, tossing in my new dvd burner, doing a backup, and installing openSUSE 11.2!
[13:10] <coz_> darkmatter,  whoa  ... so you like opensuse
[13:33] <darkmatter> coz_: always have. I liked it when it was SuSE too
[13:33] <coz_> darkmatter,  oh yeah ... I remember now...sorry...sometimes keeping track of what everyone uses is  difficult :(
[13:33] <darkmatter> np :)
[13:35] <darkmatter> coz_: suse has always been present on my system. I've ran other os's as well, but suse is my primary because I've never had any real issues with it
[13:35] <darkmatter> no os is perfect, and mileage varies etc etc. but it 'works for me' as they say ;)
[13:35] <coz_> darkmatter,   I forget why I didnt continue with suse...it's been a while... although I do have the current on cd
[13:36] <coz_> darkmatter,  yeah exactly
[13:37] <darkmatter> downloaded both the cd and dvd this time. going to make a hacking plan of the live cd (have a spar rw somewhere), then pop in the dvd and give the new and improved yast installer a test drive
[13:38] <coz_> I may have to try suse again... but  I always go back to ubuntu for some reason
[13:40] <coz_> but I think I have come the the conclusion that...although its  a good experience to try other distributions... stick with what you know :)
[13:41] <darkmatter> I already know on thing I'm hacking: gdm. suse has a space saving feature that hides the clock at 1024 nd under, so I'm going to kill the patch in the build. also considering ubuntu's gdm patches (modified as needed) sine suse uses a fairly vanilla layout
[13:44] <coz_> darkmatter, I think I have gotten lazy :)  I just want things to work ... no configuring...nor compiling...I just want to install and  go.... although I think the main thing is I just need to learn more.... my coding skills are falling way behind,,,
[13:45] <darkmatter> coz_: meh... it just works, and it's not a feature I 'need', it's a feature I want
[13:45] <coz_> :)
[13:47] <darkmatter> coz_: it's the designer in me. while I have no intentions of building my own gdm version, I still want to polish it up as much as possible. heck, half the things I do to linux aren't necessary :P
[13:47] <coz_> darkmatter,  that I really understand :)
[13:50] <darkmatter> I even did some basic hacking on the main menu this install (I'll cotinue in the next install), gave it a normal button state (for additional themability. switched to the distributor-logo, started a few hacks on the actual window of the menu but decided to hold off since I'll have to do it all again anyway)
[13:50] <coz_> darkmatter,  ")
[13:52] <darkmatter> coz_: http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/5673/screenshotqm.png
[13:52] <coz_> nice for sure :)
[13:52] <coz_> darkmatter,  I like the panel layout
[13:53] <coz_> darkmatter,   although I prefer upper panel to bottom
[13:53] <coz_> darkmatter,  that's attractive
[13:53] <coz_> darkmatter,  is that a gtk theme of yours?
[13:55] <darkmatter> coz_: aye. suse's default, only 8 pixels taller (24 pixels looks odd) plus the beginings of a hack on Sonar (suse's theme now), custon panel pixmap and lighter toolbars thus far. soo pixmap button (with a 'glow' on the menu button), pixmap scrollbars, etc. Sonar is very nice, but is plain-ish and has a few issues (the slab is to dark, it should use the shades from the bg-color and the notebook color imo)
[13:56] <darkmatter> coz_: no, the theme is by jimmac, I just tweaked it slightly
[13:57] <coz_> darkmatter,  the overall is real nice though :)
[13:58] <darkmatter> coz_: aye. that's one thing that is generally overlooked. its the 'overall' impression that matters. most distros: "we have a decent wallpaper, thats all we need" or "we have a nice icon theme" etc etc
[13:59] <coz_> darkmatter,  no arguments here :)    I think that is what the work  "theme" means :)
[13:59] <darkmatter> coz_: the one part of suse's default I don't like is the wallpaper. they have a dark theme (the one in my screenie) and a dark wall.... dark themes look like crap on dark backgrounds. its a matter of contrast
[14:01] <coz_> darkmatter,  yep... I think dark themes are by far the most difficult to make... the right values...the right greys..etc.etc
[14:01] <darkmatter> http://en.opensuse.org/Image:112m8GIMP.png <-- the wallpaper kills it
[14:01] <coz_> most I have seen have the wrong values ..the test is too bright or too colorful or unreadable
[14:02] <coz_> darkmatter,  eeewww   bad wallpaper
[14:02] <coz_> darkmatter,  again a matter of no artistic insight
[14:02] <darkmatter> coz_: Sonar has nice values. the default toolbar gradient is too dark though. I just lightened/inverted it on my end. even the 'grey' jimmac chose is nice, since its actually green :P
[14:04] <coz_> yeah that wallpaper is the wrong green ,,,
[14:04] <coz_> and the panel is far too dark and plain ...at least on that screenshot
[14:05] <darkmatter> yup. which is why I modded the panel :P
[14:05] <coz_> :)
[14:06] <darkmatter> coz_: there is 'one' are where suse cant be beat... ever http://en.opensuse.org/Image:OS11.2M7-install3.png
[14:06] <coz_> that's nice
[14:06] <darkmatter> the installer has become a work of art
[14:07] <coz_> mmm I want that on here:)
[14:07] <coz_> ubuntu's isnt bad recently though
[14:08] <darkmatter> coz_: one thing I'd love to see other distro's borrow/do on there own http://en.opensuse.org/Image:OS11.2-repair1.png <-- recovery
[14:09] <coz_> a repair tool?
[14:09] <coz_> cool
[14:09] <darkmatter> yup. the dvd comes with a suite of recovery utilities
[14:09] <coz_> darkmatter,  are the recovery utilities available on cd separately?
[14:10] <darkmatter> ummm.. not sure. they're not on the live cd's but the packages are in the repos iirc
[14:10] <coz_> cool
[14:10] <coz_> darkmatter,  I am just so used to  deb packages :)
[14:12] <darkmatter> coz_: yeah. but they have sources too :P with all the various open source goodies, you'd think distros would mix and match more
[14:12] <coz_> darkmatter,  well yeah you would think..but I think the distributions like to "compete" with their own special little tools and such :)
[14:13] <darkmatter> like, suse could bring over the restricted drivers thingy from ubuntu (atm the drivers are through one-click)
[14:14] <darkmatter> one click is nice, buts its not truly one-click (although garret has a redesign proposed to make it literally one click)
[14:15] <coz_> darkmatter,  last time I tried suse with one click stuff I was somewhat impressed  I thought the idea was cool anyway
[14:17] <darkmatter> coz_: I really hope tey implement the redesign http://ux.suse.de/~garrett/public/hackweek/oneclick/mockups/oneclick-mockup-disable%20widgets.png
[14:18] <coz_> darkmatter,  oooo  that is nice ... I like that progression
[14:18] <darkmatter> oops. wrong version. http://ux.suse.de/~garrett/public/hackweek/oneclick/mockups/oneclick-mockup-trust%20and%20install.png the other one was 2-clicks :P
[14:19] <darkmatter> coz_: yeah. its clean and clear. the current one-click feels like a windows installer :/
[14:19] <coz_> ooo  eeww
[14:20] <darkmatter> coz_: it's click > click > are you sure? > password > installs
[14:20] <coz_> darkmatter, yeah that's definitly not enough   information or user input
[14:20] <darkmatter> thus the 'windows' feel. that redesign is great because its "shut up and give me my software!"
[14:21] <coz_> :)
[14:22] <darkmatter> coz_: the current design gives a fair amount of info, but it's basically a wizard. I prefer 'shut up and do what I tell you too you effen OS!" approach to software design. I call it "click less, do more' phylosophy
[14:23] <coz_> i agree
[14:30] <darkmatter> I also follow a very strict pattern in design. painless configurations (avoid preference dialogs whereever possible)menus are inherently evil, etc
[14:33] <darkmatter> menus are acceptable for the root (desktop) menu and for file operations, and thats about it. for things like panel applets, they should have a 'flyout' with access to common controls and preferences (if the app(let)has them)
[14:35] <coz_> darkmatter,  mmm  if I understand you... I might disagree on that a bit... the more options available to the user the better
[14:37] <darkmatter> coz_: yes and no. the pint is 'good' design doesn't require a lot of options. one of the reasons we have so many options is because of poor design
[14:37] <coz_> darkmatter,  mm  I might agree with that :)
[14:38] <coz_> darkmatter,  but  individualization is uppermost in my mind
[14:38] <kwwii> hey kids, what's up?
[14:38] <darkmatter> coz_: you'll have to wait until my mockups are done to really get a gander at what I mean. but it's not about hindering individualism, its about a 'smarter' environment
[14:39] <coz_> darkmatter,   I always like to see them for sure :)
[14:39] <coz_> kwwii,  hey guy
[14:39] <coz_> kwwii,  just a discussion on the look and feel of    distributions
[14:41] <kwwii> coz_: ooh, I like to bitch about others people work too ;)
[14:42] <kwwii> kinda funny, seeing how suse is progressing after I left
[14:42] <darkmatter> coz_: part of the 'less options' is through centralized 'global' preferences as opposed to a bazillion apps with a bazillion settings (there will be comprimises of course (hopefully only temporary ones :P) if it actually sees the light of day as an actual project).
[14:42] <coz_> kwwii,   lol     I truly understand
[14:42] <coz_> darkmatter,  ok then that I nearly agree with
[14:42] <coz_> darkmatter,  but you know what the developers will say?  "do you know how much coding that would require?:
[14:45] <darkmatter> coz_: the design I've been working on is truly integrated. it uses a services concept as opposed to an applications one. basically, the 'dream' is to have an environment that provides things at a global level (the internet is a service, media is a service, etc), and to call combinations of services/subservices that are needed for <whatever> job... with gui of course
[14:46] <coz_> cool
[14:47] <darkmatter> coz_: depends on the dev. I'm looking for peple like me (the 'I enjoy a challenge' type), I've found a few who may be interested, but its still tentative. plu I want input from other user interction designers as well
[14:48] <darkmatter> coz_: basically I want to start up a 'skunkworks' project, even if it doesn't live up to the dream, at least it will provide some interfaces and technologies
[14:48] <coz_> darkmatter,  the "mind set" is chaning... I dont know if I told you ...but I talked with a few of the developers at carnegie mellon's robotics lab and posed the question... "how do you define a programmer and what do you see as the role of the artist in that process?"
[14:49] <darkmatter> actual hardcore RnD, something that is technically missing from the *nix world
[14:49] <darkmatter> coz_: what was the reply?
[14:49] <coz_> darkmatter,  the response was a good one... the main concept was that  the artist is  necessary  since how an applications is going to be used and seen by a user is as important as its funtionality
[14:50] <coz_> darkmatter,  so the  general "old"  perception that "art" is the "fun" part  is slowly being phased out
[14:50] <darkmatter> coz_: good to hear. I was thourougly fed up with the predictable 'design = bloat' crap :P
[14:51] <coz_> darkmatter,   oh yeah.. but that is an "old" developer concept
[14:51] <darkmatter> coz_: I'm surprised it wasn't phased out ages ago, since its been common knowledge for... umm... forever ;)
[14:51] <coz_> darkmatter,  mainly because developers...as well you know...are rarely ,, if ever...capable of quality art incorporation
[14:52] <coz_> darkmatter,  well it is slow to move on.... I still talk with a few developers who believe that they are gods etc etc...and they are only like 18 years old... thats not good... an outdated perception will only get in the way
[14:52] <darkmatter> coz_: you forgot 'the majority are also narcissistic and take any suggestions as negative criticisms/insults' :P
[14:53] <coz_> darkmatter,  these guys were not narcissistic that I could tell... they had a genuine appreciation for the artists role in development
[14:54] <coz_> darkmatter,  right now I am having a subdued disapreement with one of the compiz devs on the splash screen... the ones  I have made in the past were ok and accepted ....now with the new compiz I wanted a more sleek professional look but one of the insistes on the older ones
[14:54] <coz_> disagreement
[14:55] <coz_> darkmatter,  I dont mind critisism and the developers making final decision on this but  not at the expense of good taste
[14:55] <darkmatter> coz_: *nix may be mainly 'we do this for free in our free time', but it really should learn from the professional/corporate developmental industry. just because its 'free' doesn't mean it should take a substandard approach
[14:55] <darkmatter> coz_: indeed
[14:55] <coz_> darkmatter,  i agree with that as well...
[14:57] <darkmatter> coz_: in other words. primary ux designer for the environment as a whole (gnome, kde, whatever), the small team backing him, and working in conjunction with the devs to make something that is consistent, usable, and aesthetically appealing
[14:57] <darkmatter> or her
[14:58] <kwwii> to be honest, the way things have worked until now could never have produced good solid design
[14:58] <kwwii> but things they are a changing
[14:58] <darkmatter> indeed
[14:58] <coz_> darkmatter,  yeah  the developers need to understand that creating a pleasing consistent and artistically sound desing takes as much effort as coding the application
[14:58] <coz_> design
[14:59] <coz_> kwwii,  and indeed  the  atmosphere is definitly changing
[14:59] <coz_> I just dont like to see one young developers being taken under the wings of an arrogant one  which will only continue the "old" approach
[15:00] <kwwii> coz_: luckily, the people moving into this area are not from the linux world ;)
[15:01] <coz_> kwwii,   I havent thought of that :)
[15:01] <kwwii> and anyone with half a brain knows that you don't let them sit in a room full of developers alone :p
[15:09] <darkmatter> coz_: an example of 'good'.. nay... 'great' design was from on of the labs during the second code reset of longhorn(vista) when hillel cooperman was the head UX designer. it was the one often called 'Air' and 'Excalibur' by the windows community. to bad they scrapped it when he left :/
[15:19] <darkmatter> coz_: I will admit some influence from his ideas. it was hillel and his team that really tried to push a more services style direction on windows (which never took off... middle management killed it). basically the idea that you don't need an IM client, or an email program, because the ability to read/check mail, chat, phone/voice conference etc is built into the base system and gui.
[15:20] <coz_> darkmatter,  oh for windows?  well sure  third party developers would lose money no?
[15:20] <darkmatter> it was a concept I always liked, I just expanded on it and began work on my own implementation 'design and a little bit of planning on how to do it in code)
[15:21] <darkmatter> coz_: thats probably why middle management killed it
[15:21] <coz_> for sure
[15:22] <coz_> darkmatter,  is there a suse 11.2  compiz repo?
[15:22] <darkmatter> coz_: yup
[15:23] <coz_> darkmatter,  do you have a link to that by chance?
[15:23] <darkmatter> suse has tons of repos now
[15:23] <darkmatter> sec
[15:25] <darkmatter> theres actually two, but I assume you want the fusion repo, so
[15:25] <darkmatter> http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/X11:/Compiz/openSUSE_11.2/
[15:26] <coz_> darkmatter,  ok thanks...someone on compiz was  having issues :)
[15:26] <darkmatter> kk
[18:47] <talat> hi all,
[18:47] <talat> I open Ubuntu Q&A website - http://www.ubuntu-tr.net
[19:09] <thorwil> great: http://www.ubuntu-tr.net/about/