=== yoasif_ is now known as yoasif
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pittiGood morning07:47
ajmitchmorning pitti08:04
=== azeem_ is now known as azeem
pitti$ sudo dpkg -P hal08:42
pittikees, jdstrand: http://piware.de/workitems/security/lucid/report.html08:46
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=== elky is now known as elky`
pitticjwatson: do you know if there's a way to invoke ssh-agent on demand (on the first ssh attempt) instead of having to run your entire session with the ssh-agent wrapper?10:47
Rochahello =)10:56
cjwatsonpitti: you can run 'eval `ssh-agent`' in your shell, but ssh can't do it for you because it would require poking environment variables into its parent shell10:56
Rochahow can i contribute with translations for ubuntu?10:56
cjwatsonRocha: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu#Translation10:56
Rochai've found a lot os missing translations in the ptPT locale during the installation process10:57
sorenpitti: Is starting ssh-agent really that expensive?10:57
\shPitti to Hal: HAL, I won't argue with you anymore, leave me alone : HAL to Pitti: Pitti, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye ;)10:57
Rochacjwatson: thanks10:57
pitticjwatson:  would it be feasible to also look for a  ~/.ssh/socket -> /tmp/... symlink if $SSH_AUTH_SOCK isn't there?10:57
pitti\sh: :)10:57
pittisoren: yes, it blocks the session for a second, which is an entire quarter of our budget10:58
cjwatsonpitti: doesn't sound very appealing - this often needs to be session-specific and I think that could easily go wrong10:58
cjwatsonwhy on earth is ssh-agent taking a second?10:58
pittiso since we got nailed on this 4 second thing, it's either "install it by default, but not in xsession.d", or "don't install it by default"10:58
cjwatsonit's blindingly fast here. are you sure you aren't using the crappy seahorse thing?10:59
pittissh-agent there loads and only runs its program (argument) a second later10:59
cjwatson$ time ssh-agent true10:59
cjwatsonreal    0m0.010s10:59
pittiand that's pretty consistent across all boot charts10:59
\shpitti, when I read your post, I just thought about "A Space Odysee" from 1968 ;)11:00
pitti\sh: yeah, I've seen the movie some months ago11:00
cjwatsonpitti: regardless, I think we should optimise ssh-agent, not remove it11:01
pittiit still strikes me as a less-than-optimal concept11:02
Riddellpitti: how's this for work items? https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo11:02
cjwatsonan strace of ssh-agent on a default installation would be nice, to see what it's doing11:02
cjwatsonI would kindly request that you don't mess with the ssh authentication setup in the name of optimisation :)11:03
* cjwatson doesn't really want to be flamed to death by the entire world11:03
sorenCould it be some kind of bootchart artifact? What is the command that ssh-agent runs on a default install?11:07
soren(me uses gpg-agent as his ssh agent, so can't tell)11:08
cjwatsonssh-agent runs the rest of the session11:08
cjwatsonit's just chained execution11:08
sorenI know.11:08
sorenI'm just wondering what the specific command was.11:09
sorenI.e. the argv that ssh-agent ends up exec'ing.11:09
cjwatsonI think it's chained pretty late - it ought to exec gnome-session11:09
cjwatsonhmm, except it appears to be the other way round11:09
pittimartin   23688  0.0  0.0  36060   704 ?        Ss   09:22   0:00 /usr/bin/ssh-agent /usr/bin/dbus-launch --exit-with-session /usr/bin/seahorse-agent --execute gnome-session11:09
pittiit's 90x11-common_ssh-agent11:10
sorenOk, so dbus-launch.11:10
pittiwhich is the last Xsession.d right before the "real" thing11:10
cjwatsonwhile we're on useless things, what's the point of seahorse-agent?11:10
pittiand the commands are chained inside out11:10
sorenGlancing at ssh-agent, I don't see why it would take second before it reaches the execvp.11:10
pitticjwatson: it provides the passphrase dialog input box11:10
cjwatsonas opposed to ssh-askpass? ... ok11:11
pitti(for gpg)11:11
cjwatsonwe could use pinentry for that11:11
sorenSo I was just wondering if it may be bootchart that's getting it wrong and that it's really all dbus-launch's fault. I don't know. Just a completely random stab in the dark.11:11
pittiswitching to gnupg2 and pinentry is an option, if that's any faster11:12
cjwatsonyou can use pinentry with normal gpg?11:12
cjwatsonI do ...11:12
cjwatsonwell, I use pinentry-curses, but still11:12
cjwatsonthat said, I don't see seahorse-agent in the bootchart11:13
pittisoren: could entirely be an interpretation artifact, yes11:13
sorenOddly, I don't see anything in between ssh-agent and gnome-settings-daemon in your bootchart?11:13
cjwatsonI definitely don't understand why gnome-session is a parent of ssh-agent here11:14
sorenIt's a long exec chain.11:14
pitticjwatson: seahorse-agent is only on my system with seahorse-plugins (for gpg)11:14
sorenHow does boothcart do its thing?11:14
pittiwe don't install that by default, so it's not on seb128's11:14
sorenbsd accounting or some such?11:14
cjwatsonis there some weirdness in gnome-session to start ssh-agent itself?11:14
cjwatsonor are we misinterpreting the intended ordering?11:15
* soren heads out for a long lunch11:16
pittiI don't see anythign that would start ssh-agent from within gnome-session11:17
pittiwe'll do some more accurate measurements, and compare charts with and without any agents, to see what the real difference is11:18
pittibut I still stand by my opinion that it'd be better to launch things on demand than everything at startup (many users might not ever need ssh/gpg ever)11:19
pittiwhich is why I asked whether there's an existing method to do that (well know location instead of well know environment variable); if that was there, it would have been a good step for clean up11:20
pittibut if it's not, let's shelve this for now11:20
Rochais there a channel availabe for ubuntu translations?11:21
pittiRocha: there is a mailing list: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators11:21
Rochapitti: ok, thanks, subscribed 10min ago11:21
pittiRiddell: so is https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo != https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo/Lucid ?11:22
pittiRiddell: I'm currently pulling in the latter for WIs11:22
pittiah, seems to be the same11:22
Riddellpitti: yes it's the same11:25
jussi01pitti: congratulations on the HAL achievement :D12:59
cjwatsonpitti: has anyone suggested per-assignee burndown charts, or at least a list of work items for each assignee? there's no easy way to get a full list of WIs one's assigned to right now, since they don't necessarily correspond to spec assignees13:05
cjwatson(I'd be OK with a full list of specs on which I have WIs, too)13:06
=== jamie is now known as Guest97066
Tm_Thi cyberix13:23
cyberixI'm wishing to get scrub into main13:23
cyberixIt is a tool for securily deleting stuff13:24
cyberixIt would be very convenient to have it on the live cd13:24
Tm_Tcyberix: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuMainInclusionRequirements13:24
cyberixso one could use it from the cd to write random on some partition13:25
Tm_Tcyberix: is this document familiar to you?13:25
cyberixI'm looking at it13:25
Tm_Tgood (:13:25
cyberixIs it possible for a command line utility to be "useful for a large part of our user base"13:26
cyberixI guess securily destroying all data from an old HD is usefull for most users13:27
cyberixBut I'm not sure, if it should be made easier than just having the tool available13:28
cyberixclearly you cannot do that from within the system as the filesystem is mounted when you boot from the HD13:28
cjwatsoncyberix: it'd be better to get improvements merged into shred, perhaps13:28
cjwatsonsince that's already there13:28
cyberixcjwatson: does shred support clearing entire partitions and disks?13:30
cjwatsonthe question is whether it *should* support that13:31
cjwatsonwe don't want to have multiple tools that do the same kind of job13:31
cyberixthe reason why I'd be going for scrub is that it has names for different procedures of clearing the disk13:31
cjwatsonand since shred is clearly already aiming at this kind of thing, the best approach is therefore to improve it13:31
cyberixaccording to different standards13:31
cjwatsonsince it's in coreutils and is already installed13:31
cyberixI could file bugs for shred13:32
cjwatsonit'd be best to try to get upstream scrub and upstream coreutils working together, I'd have thought13:32
cjwatsonI know people often want to run their own project, but coreutils is installed *everywhere* so it's an excellent way to get software out to people, if it fits13:33
cjwatsonand I'm pretty sure a GNU project will want to have the best possible implementation of secure erase, rather than a half-hearted one :)13:33
Tm_Talso it's typically good idea to avoid "NIH" effect where possible (:13:34
cjwatsonI'm slightly puzzled, since the author of scrub is clearly already aware of shred13:34
cyberixI'll try to find him and ask him13:36
cyberixoh dear13:37
cyberixhis email address ends with @llnl.gov13:38
cyberixsounds serious13:38
cyberixwhat is it?13:38
cjwatsonalso maybe talk with coreutils upstream13:38
cjwatsonit's a research lab13:38
Keybukpeople with lots of time on their hands and a tendency to do everything themselves from scratch :013:38
cyberixthat's good13:38
Tm_Tcjwatson: hard to find any information about this project, or maybe it's just me failing again13:40
cjwatsonscrub has been mentioned on the coreutils list, but only tangentially13:40
cjwatsonTm_T: which project?13:40
Tm_Tcjwatson: scrub13:40
cjwatsonyou were expecting a .gov project to have an open development process? :)13:40
Tm_Tcjwatson: no, but some info in http://code.google.com/p/diskscrub/13:41
Tm_TI mean, _something_13:41
cjwatsonit's not unusual for single-command projects to not have much in the way of a web presence13:41
Keybuksuperm1: around?13:42
Tm_Ttrue, but I find that alone as one reason not to consider main for that13:42
cjwatsonthat would be a bit overkill given the number of things in main that don't have much of a web presence13:42
goldinswhat's wrong with shred?13:42
cyberixshould I cc the discussion to some ubuntu-devel list?13:43
cjwatsonhonestly, I think that coreutils will be more interested in going out and merging ideas from scrub than the other way round ...13:43
cjwatsonmaybe this is unfair, but it's my impression13:43
Tm_Tcjwatson: true that13:43
ionYay, the lucid kernel fixes KMS with my radeon.13:45
Laneyis there a karmic backport?13:46
Laneymight just upgrade my desktop to lucid13:48
* Laney takes the plunge13:51
cjwatsonapw: any chance of a dummy linux-backports-modules-lucid?13:51
=== mtrudel_ is now known as cyphermox
apwcjwatson, i don't think we are going to have a linux-backport-modules for lucid, we'll have backports packages, but its split into the components13:52
cjwatsonoh really?13:52
cjwatsonI guess we should update the seeds then ...13:52
apweven in karmic the we encourage use of l-b-m-alsa and l-b-m-wifi (approximarly13:53
apwas l-b-m has only been wifi for the longest time, but we're needing more now13:53
apwwould you seed all of them onto the CD ?13:53
ScottKlinux-backports-modules-lucid as a metapackage perhaps?13:53
apwScottK, w13:54
apwScottK, what would it mean?13:54
cjwatsonI've dropped linux-backports-modules-karmic from the supported-kernel seed for now13:54
apwgenerally applying all of them would be bad from a users point of view13:54
ScottKInstall that one and it pulls all the individual backports packages13:54
ScottKapw: OK.  Probably not then13:54
directhe`you also want to have backports for disk controllers13:54
cjwatsonis anyone in xubuntu-dev around?13:55
directhe`and a clear policy regarding install media13:55
directhe`since those factors are why my servers run debian not dapper13:55
cjwatsonactually never mind that, Cody applied my change13:55
apwif thats useful for the CD then i can see its something we could do, so you don't have to track the individual packages ... but not somethign a user would use13:55
cjwatsonprobably only point releases, by nature13:55
apwdirecthe`, backports for disk controllers?  never been asked for such a thing to my knowledge13:55
cjwatsonI'm happy enough to figure it out then ...13:56
directhe`apw, i'm sure i had a bug open for it, but this is many years ago13:56
ScottKcjwatson: We already have our first kubuntu-dev application, so people aren't waiting to take advantage of the new permissions.13:56
apwcjwatson, ok ... so would it help to keep ubuntu-installer informed of when we get the various l-b-m components back13:57
cjwatsonapw: never hurts at least13:57
cjwatsonit's certainly possible that we might want to embed some of them into the installer13:57
cjwatsonbut probably not all13:57
directhe`apw, dapper as shipped didn't support dell perc5 controllers properly (it listed all drives individually as WELL as the raid array, which was listed last, so no deterministic way to rely upon a /dev node)13:58
directhe`apw, there was a kernel in -proposed with lots of backported drivers including that one, but i gave up on trying to squeeze it into a d-i disc13:58
apwdirecthe`, hrm, thats such old technology now, i would expect the brave new [sic] udev powered world to get that right13:59
apwone would hope that hardy would have been ok in that redard13:59
directhe`apw, well, the problem was the module was presenting all disks, so udev was creating nodes for them14:00
directhe`apw, i had servers to deploy, couldn't wait 2 years, so installed etch14:00
apwdirecthe`, as is your right :)14:00
=== steveire_ is now known as steveire
sorenpitti: How often are the burndown charts generated now? Daily?14:46
pitticjwatson: I didn't get the request for per-assignee charts; the html report has per-assignee stats, but they might be spread over teams, so it's not very useful yet14:50
pitticjwatson: it's relatively easy to generate a list of work items per assignee, though14:50
sorenpitti: I would like that as well. It would make a nice, complete todo list sort of thing.14:51
pittisoren: right now, daily; this will switch to hourly once most blueprints have WIs; right now this would spam you 24 times a day with "BP has no work items waawaa"14:51
sorenpitti: Oh, I see.14:52
pittifoundations now has hourly14:52
sorenpitti: I think server should be in good shape for that as well.14:52
* soren checks to make sure14:52
* pitti regenerates14:52
sorenpitti: How do you generate the report? It doesn't say on the wiki, only how to generate the chart.14:53
pittisoren: I just run the cron job manually14:53
pittithe entire cron job line is on the wiki14:53
pittiWARNING: server-lucid-cloud-krd has no work items14:53
pittiWARNING: server-lucid-bug-zapping has no work items14:53
pittijust those two14:53
sorencloud-krd? Hmm..  What on Earth is that?14:53
pittisoren: ok, server is in "full spam" hourly mode14:53
sorenpitti: Who gets spammed? mdz?14:54
mdzsoren, me and ttx14:54
mdzsoren, cloud-krd is getting rid of the ec2 ramdisk14:54
sorenAh. That's funny: last night I was considering adding an extra ramdisk. :)14:55
sorenSo, basically create a tiny AMI that just sits around waiting for an EBS volume to be attached, mount it, and boot into that. Voila, we have persistent instances.14:56
sorenpitti: Is the cron job done? I still don't see myself on the assignee list.15:00
pittiyes, it only takes a couple of seconds15:00
pittisoren: http://piware.de/workitems/server/lucid/report.html has 50 work items for you..15:00
sorenpitti: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-lucid-automated-testing is listed on the spec list saying it has 50 work items and I'm the assignee..15:00
sorenpitti: Oh. So it does.15:01
sorenFirefox was showing me a cached version odd.15:01
pittisoren: you meant you _wish_ you wouldn't have any? :-)15:01
sorenI just typed in the URL manually. :/15:01
pittirobbiew_: what's the topic for today's release meeting? I'm not sure what to prepare15:02
asacpitti: i dont see a release meeting on todays calendar ... first entry is next week15:11
pittiasac: hm, I remember accepting an invitation15:11
asacyeah. me too ... but that was for 4th dec and after as it seems15:12
pittiah, so it is15:12
pittirobbiew_: unping then :)15:12
* lamont continues to scratch his head at the b0rked karmic upgrade15:15
lamontgdm-simple-greeter[2468]: WARNING: Unable to find users: no seat-id found15:15
pittilamont: is console-kit-daemon running? does ck-list-sessions work for you?15:16
lamontpitti: seems not to be.  the issue at hand is that after a upgrade of this jaunty machine to karmic, gdm presents no users for login15:17
lamontmind you, the machine was running edgy at some point since it's last coldinstall15:17
lamontpitti: ok.  followup question: why did console-kit-daemon die/not-start then?  (where does it log?)15:20
pittilamont: if it's not running, ck-list-sessions should dbus-activate it15:21
pittiso if it's still not running now, can you please run sudo  /usr/sbin/console-kit-daemon and see what it's complaining about?15:21
pittilamont: it just uses /var/log/daemon.log15:22
lamontwhen I ran it, it started just fine15:22
pittiso after a reboot it isn't running? any error about it in /var/log/daemon.log?15:22
lamontjust a warning about some pid's environ file in proc when I ran it now15:23
* lamont reboots to get a fresh look at it15:23
lamontto make matters more, um, interesting, I dpkg --purged all of the rc packages to unclutter the dpkg output...  I suspect this tanked some file somewhere, so I did an install --reinstall of every installed package while I slept15:24
lamontnothing in daemon.log, no console-kit-daemon, after reboot15:26
lamontpitti: OTOH, gdm now shows users15:27
lamontrather, user.  how do I get it to quit showing the list of users again?  (since that's totally WRONG in this machine's case, given that I'm the only local user (kids come from nss-db), so they have to hit 'other' before they can log in)15:28
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=== soren` is now known as soren
pittilamont: hiding user list is not that easy, but you could do "sudo -u gdm gconf-editor" and set /apps/gdm/simple-greeter/disable_user_list to false15:34
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lamontno, you set it to true, seb128 sucks15:35
pitti(there's a plan to make that accessible in gdmconfig in lucid)15:35
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lamontpitti: thanks - I had the gconf thing, just backwards sense on the value16:02
lamont(since it's wrong in the bug)16:02
lamontpitti: though it might be nice if gdm also noticed a lack of users, and dropped into the "username/password" non-face-browser version of login at that point...16:07
lamontbigger question is why didn't console-kit-daemon start16:07
pittilamont: does c-k-d start when you log in?16:07
pittiat that point at latest it should get spawned16:07
lamontoh, it's all working just fine ever since I manually started it.16:07
pittiI guess with zero users in the list gdm doesn't have anything it needs to query c-k about16:07
pittiauto non-face browser> indeed16:08
lamontand it's not actually running in the logged in session now...16:08
lamontISTR running into this when I dragged my machine from intrepid->jaunty, and solved it by coldinstalling.  or something like that16:09
lamontand nothing logged in daemon.log16:10
pittivery strange; it means that you are missing half of the requried device access permissions, etc.16:10
pittiyou do have /usr/share/dbus-1/system-services/org.freedesktop.ConsoleKit.service, I take it16:10
lamont-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 92 2009-08-23 23:17 /usr/share/dbus-1/system-services/org.freedesktop.ConsoleKit.service16:11
lamontmissing half == cause, or effect?16:12
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=== beuno is now known as beuno-lunch
=== dendrobates is now known as dendro-afk
geserdoes somebody know if there is a requirement on the timestamps inside a deb package? I'm looking at http://launchpadlibrarian.net/36001574/upload_1361070_log.txt (php-auth_1.6.2-1_all.deb: has 23 file(s) with a time stamp too far into the future (e.g. usr/share/doc/php-auth/examples/tests/users [Thu Jan  1 10:13:08 1970]))16:24
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cjwatsongeser: tar whines if timestamps suggest that you're running inside a time machine16:26
cjwatsonit doesn't actually break16:26
gesercjwatson: that's the error message for a "Failed Upload" from the buildds and I'm trying to figure out if it's a bug in soyuz or the package16:27
* cjwatson stares at an apt error message: "E:I wasn't able to locate file for the ubiquity package. This might mean you need to manually fix this package."16:28
cjwatsonI'm sure I'm doing something wrong with python-apt, but I can't figure out exactly what ...16:28
cjwatsongeser: ah, well, LP does do that check explicitly16:30
cjwatsonthe error message is buggy: it says "too far into the future" both for future files and ancient files; please file a bug on that16:31
cjwatsonthere's an argument that it's overly strict, but it is pointing out a genuine problem, so rather than tilt at windmills I'd be inclined to fix the package if I were you16:31
cjwatsonI believe that dak does the same check16:32
cjwatsonyeah, it does16:33
cjwatsonin extremis you could touch the offending files during build or something, and get upstream to fix their tarball if it's their files at fault16:34
geserit's in the .orig.tar.gz too16:34
geserI wonder how the DD got the deb built (arch:all) as my attempt to build the package in a lenny pbuilder showed the same problem while the uploaded deb from the Debian archive has only current timestamps16:35
cjwatsongeser: if they touched the files locally, it would have built for them but dpkg-source wouldn't have preserved the timestamp changes16:42
directhexbloody debian developers with their unreproducible binary uploads16:42
geserdirecthex: especially arch:all only packages16:44
* geser hopes that the planned force rebuild of uploaded source in Debian will help a little bit16:45
=== dendro-afk is now known as dendrobates
cjwatsonsiretart: do you fancy (fixing|getting somebody to fix) the couple of bugs I filed under https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=emacs23-transition? I moved emacs23 to main, emacs22 to universe, and adjusted python2.4 and python2.5 to build with emacs23.17:00
=== superm1` is now known as superm1
Bengan3Ancient coder sais "Seek for any change in wine" Ubuntu/Fedora. Sound in Fedora seems better atm. Graphics seems ok in both of these. /Thanks for listening.17:05
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cjwatsonapw: anything delaying linux-meta from bumping to 2.6.32-5? (put another way, any reason I shouldn't rebuild the installer against -5?)17:24
cjwatsonapw: ... never mind, apparently I meant linux-ports-meta not linux-meta17:24
pitticjwatson: hm, that already happened a few days back?17:24
apwyeah ... i thought i remembered this time :)17:24
apwyeah ports is a bit behind, but i don't have that tree17:25
apwi did mention it to themuso at uds17:25
* cjwatson should check facts before typing, that's all17:26
apwcjwatson, only human, i have tended to lag too far on meta so i am a likely source :)17:27
=== dendrobates is now known as dendro-afk
Keybukpitti: shouldn't the burndown graphs be generated with the highest number of items as the top of the burndown17:31
Keybukrather than the number in the first day?17:31
Keybukotherwise as work items get added, it won't adjust17:31
Keybukand you get ...17:31
pittiKeybuk: that would blur the effect of adding new items in the middle of the cycle, though17:31
apwwaht he said17:32
pittiKeybuk: right, the plan is to ditch the DB next Monday (or alternatively adjust the start)17:32
Keybukotoh, right now, it's useless if you didn't get all the items in when you started the graphs <g>17:32
Keybukadding new items *should* change the graph17:32
pittithis week was pretty much meant to get the stuff running, and every team set up their WIs17:32
Keybukyour black line should decrease to the point the items were added17:32
Keybukthen jump higher again, but be steeper for the remainder17:33
pittihm, it's not what we used so far17:35
pittiwhen we got new stuff in the middle of the cycle, it prominently was the blame for suddenly not reaching our goals any more17:35
Keybukright, which means you need to work harder or add more employees17:35
pittithe trend line should not adapt to the current reality, but reality should measure against the plan17:35
Keybukgiven our team, add more employees would be the right fix :p17:35
pitti(that's at least how I understood Rick)17:35
* apw smiles17:36
Keybukif you have 20 items and 5 days, you need to complete 4 items a day17:36
apwi suspect both are useful17:36
Keybukif you now have 40 items and 4 days, you *now* need to complete 10 items a day17:36
Keybukdepends whether the line is supposed to show the original plan17:36
apwperhaps we could have a black line which is ricks line, and a red line which is keybuks line17:36
Keybukor be indicative of where you need to be on a given day17:36
Keybukrick's line shows the original plan17:36
apwyep, and keybuk's line shows reality from 'here'17:37
Keybukmy line should show the future trend based on the current items17:37
Keybukneither line is actually true17:37
Keybukyou need a third line17:37
Keybukthe number of items that people actually *can* get done in a day17:37
apwthey do make managers all excited though17:37
Keybukthe black line assumes that all work items planned at the start of the cycle *can* be completed ;P17:37
Keybukwhen in reality, you want a fixed black line17:37
Keybukso as more work items get added, even at the start, it shows "not going to happen"17:37
pittiyou can also use it to see how much stuff you need to postpone17:38
Keybukonly if the line at the start reflected what could be done ;)17:39
pittino, if you masssively over-planned, you just need to postpone more17:39
pittiand you can do that early, because trend and reality will drift away quickly17:40
pittianyway, if you need another red line, patches accepted :)17:40
cjwatsonspeaking of which, is the running code automatically updated from bzr?17:41
pittiyes, it is17:41
pittithe cron job does a pull before anything else17:41
pittiwhich is kind of a remote hole on my server, I guess, but that's the reason why commit access is limited :)17:42
=== dendro-afk is now known as dendrobates
* pitti finishes testing tzdata stuff and calls it a weekend17:42
pittigood night everyone!17:43
apwpitti, night17:43
Bengan3cjwatson: You seem to know what everyone likes (No GUIs what so ever). Now, how did your lame brain ever come to think that people wouldnt want "easy" to do the same work as "hard" ?18:01
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* apw shakes his head ... how constructive 18:11
cjwatson(no more constructive in /msg; I didn't think it was likely which is why I kicked him immediately)18:11
apwcjwatson, completely reasonable, its not like you don't think about users ever ...18:13
keespitti: \o/ thanks!18:26
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mdzmathiaz, zip and unzip are already in main18:48
mathiazmdz: hm - right18:49
mathiazmdz: so the proposal is to install them by default?18:50
mdzmathiaz, I believe so, it should be in the notes18:50
mathiazmdz: was the proposal to install zip/unzip on -server only or by default everywhere?18:51
mdzmathiaz, what do the notes say?18:52
mathiazmdz: "promote zip, unzip to server default install? "18:52
mdzmathiaz, yes, the proposal was to add them to the default server install then18:52
* mathiaz updates the Work Items list18:53
mdzthey fall into the "very small but very useful" category for me18:53
mathiazmdz: right - which bring the question of having it part of ubuntu-standard instead of -server default install18:53
mdzmathiaz, I'm not sure of all the implications of that18:54
mdzmathiaz, if there are any other parts of the server seed which are not well documented/organized, it would be good to clean those up18:54
mdzsome simple reordering and section changes would make it more readable18:55
mdzcjwatson, btw, can we remove the # WikiName comments from the seeds yet? ;-)18:55
mathiazmdz: well - there are multiple server seeds18:56
mathiazmdz: it would be good to have a list of seeds we're looking after18:56
mathiazmdz: and I wonder how that maps to the PackageSets as well...18:56
tormodwhere did git-send-email and git-svn go?18:57
ebrodertormod: In terms of packages? git-send-email is in git-email and git-svn is in git-svn. Neither is installed with git-code19:00
tormodebroder, I just updated to git-core/lucid and it forced out these two19:00
tormodand they did not migrate to git-core19:01
tormodebroder, operator fault, I had forgotten to update my universe sources19:04
cjwatsonmdz: feel free to remove any that are no longer useful ...19:06
cjwatsonit's not as if anything parses them. :)19:06
cjwatsonand they're in history if we're desperate for some reason19:06
mdzcjwatson, I don't think any of them are useful any longer, and was considering just removing them en masse19:06
cjwatsonthat's fine by me19:07
* tormod thought all binaries of one source would belong to the same pocket19:07
cjwatsontormod: do you mean component?19:07
tormodyes I mean component :)19:07
cjwatson(pocket => release, security, updates ...; component => main, restricted, universe, multiverse)19:07
cjwatsontormod: no, not necessarily19:07
cjwatsonI don't believe that's ever been the case in Ubuntu, although it is true in Debian19:08
ebrodertormod: Yeah, that's definitely untrue - I have the unfortunate habit of caring about packages that have one binary package in main :)19:11
cjwatsonmdz: zip and unzip are in desktop-common anyway. As far as I can see the only other practical consequence of moving them from desktop-common to standard would be that they would end up in UEC images too19:11
cjwatsonuec currently == server - wireless-tools - wpa-supplicant + some other stuff19:12
cjwatsonmathiaz: ^-19:12
dnivra_i'm trying to compile the sudo source code19:13
dnivra_in the install file it's stated that PAM and LDAP headers are not installed by default and so need to be installed19:14
mathiazcjwatson: I think that would be fine19:14
dnivra_but apt-get is unable find the packages pav-dev and openldap-devel19:15
dnivra_is it not available in the ubuntu repo?19:15
tormoddnivra_, usually apt-get build-dep sudo will help you19:15
mathiazdnivra_: libldap2-dev19:16
mathiazdnivra_: libpam0g-dev19:16
dnivra_tormod: well actually i'm trying to learn how sudo works; so need to manually specify where to install the files using ./configure <options>. is it possible using the apt-get command you gave?19:16
dnivra_mathiaz: thanks19:17
dnivra_i tried to run the following command for ./configure19:19
dnivra_but i get the error configure: error: expected an absolute directory name for --mandir: =/home/arvind/sudo/man19:20
dnivra_this is the command19:20
dnivra_why did the error occur?19:21
mathiazdnivra_: because you've used 2 = instead of 1 in the configure command?19:23
ebroderGeez. When did pastebin.org start popping up background windows. That's disgusting19:24
dnivra_oops didn't notice that.19:24
dnivra_mathiaz: thanks19:24
cjwatsondnivra_: if you want to build it the same way Ubuntu does, you can just use 'debian/rules build'19:28
cjwatsonassuming you're working with the Ubuntu source package rather than the upstream tarball19:28
dnivra_cjwatson: i used apt-get source sudo. so that is ubuntu source package right?19:29
goldinsooh maybe that's how I should build ssh with opensc19:29
cjwatsonor 'debuild -b' if you want it to go all the way through and build a package (requires that you've installed the devscripts package first)19:30
goldinscan I pass configure options to debuild?19:37
dnivra_cjwatson: well i'm actually trying to create the binary so that i can analyse how it works using gdb; that's why all this compiling the source etc19:38
dnivra_cjwatson: thanks for the debuild; will check it out19:38
ebroderdnivra_: Are you just looking for ddebs.ubuntu.com?19:38
ebroderdnivra_: It has debugging symbols for everything19:38
tormoddnivra_, or build with: DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS="noopt nostrip debug" debuild -b -us -uc19:39
dnivra_what is a ddeb actually?19:42
ebroderIt's just a .deb that contains debugging symbols instead of an actual package19:43
dnivra_i have a doubt why not use this itself as the deb package?19:46
tormoddnivra_, but for gdb you want the "noopt" as well19:46
dnivra_tormod: ok19:46
tormoddnivra_, and also you can look up the source inside gdb, which won't work with ddebs19:48
dnivra_so tormod are you saying that ddebs.ubuntu.com is not enough because it's not specifically compiled for gdb?19:48
dnivra_tormod: that's precisely what i want to do look at the source inside gdb as each statement, each function call is executed19:48
tormoddnivra_, it's specifically for making gdb (and backtraces) more useful, but it is a convenience compromise19:49
dnivra_tormod: how is it a compromise?19:49
cjwatsonbecause adding debugging symbols to everything would make the archive very much bigger, and would make it harder for us to fit a useful system inside our space constraints19:53
cjwatson(BTW, you mean "I have a question", not "I have a doubt" - seems to be a common non-native-speaker mistake :-) )19:54
cjwatsonbut if you build the package yourself with the DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS tormod gave, you'll usually get debugging symbols19:54
cjwatsonand you don't need to mess about with ddebs19:55
dnivra_cjwatson: agreed. i really can improve english a bit more19:55
cjwatsonno particular criticism, I'm sure I'm much worse at your native language ...19:55
dnivra_cjwatson: actually i speak english the best relatively19:55
cjwatsonI'm curious why "doubt" is such a common miswording there, though - does it correspond to some word for "question" in some other language?19:55
cjwatsonor language family?19:56
dnivra_no such correspondence in mine as far as i know19:56
dnivra_well thank you all for your help. gotta get some sleep(1:30am here).20:03
tormodcjwatson, I guess it is a direct translation, of something that is a question in your head, and not something you ask20:05
tormodanother classic is "defect" about bug - I think that's Russian20:05
macotormod: i see native english speakers use that20:07
tormodoh they must be non-geeks20:08
macotormod: i think because bug implies broken functionality, while defect can be for misfeatures too (ie, it works as intended, but the intention is wrong)20:08
joaopintocjwatson, in portuguese and eventually spanish, "dúvida"="doubt" means, "not be be sure, not to understand" , the second meaning allows it to be used directly as a replacement for "question"20:08
macotormod: um...people at UDS...?20:08
tormodmaco, forget it :)20:08
macotormod: i think it came up in relation to usability bugs20:09
tormodwell works as intended = "feature"20:09
joaopintowhen we say "tenho uma dúvida"="I have a doubt", valid in portuguese, the next sentence will be a question :P20:10
* tormod gonna reboot into a "full" lucid and has some doubt about there being some defects20:10
joaopintosome multinational IT companies do use "defect" as the standard term for "bug"20:14
ScottKThey are roughly synonomous.20:14
tormodare the notification messages "low - report incorrect urgency?" a feature?20:16
cjwatsontormod: "defect" is quite common particularly in corporates (as joaopinto also said while you were /quit)20:17
sorenjoaopinto: "doubt" in Spanish is "duda".20:17
cjwatsonand it does mean "something that's broken" so it's fair enough really20:17
joaopintosoren, close to portuguese, "dúvida"  :)20:17
sorenjoaopinto: Right :)20:17
joaopintolately I decided to use "defect" on customer communication, it looks more professional :P20:18
mptkees, did you see <https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2009-November/010062.html>? Sorry if you're the wrong person to ask, but I'm not sure what it's about, and no-one replied20:19
tormodok so wikipedia says that "bug" = "inexplicable defect" :)20:25
cjwatsonhow can I put this? that's a wikipedia bug :)20:26
mannyvjoaopinto, schroot_build.py has fixed all my schroot/sbuild headaches.. now even when installing  a debian chroot, so thanks.20:29
joaopintomannyv, great :)20:30
mathiazcjwatson: is there a way to get the whole list of package sets?20:38
cjwatsonmathiaz: yes, iterate over the launchpad.packagesets collection using the API20:40
mathiazcjwatson: great - thanks20:40
ScottKmathiaz: ./edit_acl.py -P ubuntu-desktop -S lucid query works.20:41
cjwatson>>> sorted(set([s.name for s in launchpad.packagesets]))20:41
cjwatson[u'core', u'desktop-core', u'edubuntu', u'kernel', u'kubuntu', u'langpack', u'mobile', u'mythbuntu', u'ubuntu-desktop', u'ubuntu-server', u'ubuntustudio', u'unr', u'xubuntu']20:41
ScottKAs an example.20:41
cjwatsonScottK: that gives you all the packages in a package set, but not the list of all package sets20:41
mathiazScottK: right - now I wanna figure the equivalent of ubuntu-desktop for server20:41
ScottKcjwatson: Ah, read the question wrong.  Thanks.20:41
ScottKLooks like ubuntu-server20:42
mathiazcjwatson: during the karmic cycle you mentionned the following command: ./edit_acl.py -P karmic-ubuntu-server query20:42
cjwatsonthat has changed to -P ubuntu-server -S karmic20:43
mathiazcjwatson: ok20:43
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tormoddo upstart script output go somewhere?20:56
Arcdoes anyone know why karmic-backports isn't in /usr/share/app-install/channels/ ?21:04
Arcim trying to discover how to enable karmic-backports using apturl21:06
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Arcquiet room?22:06
Arcshould update sources be enabled in apt-url or should backports be added as a channel?22:07
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