| === bdefreese2 is now known as bddebian | ||
| JontheEchidna | ohmy, broken kio_smtp causes a lot of ML drama | 01:58 |
|---|---|---|
| liveassist_bot | A user is requesting assistant with: [Its shtylman. I'm testing live assistant.. .someone help me :)]. Please join #shtylman_2_222200 if you can help them. | 03:21 |
| === yofel_ is now known as yofel | ||
| shtylman | claydoh: http://68.173.99.55/live/chat1.png | 03:41 |
| shtylman | thats what I see on my end | 03:41 |
| shtylman | needs some touchup... but the goal was to be simple for anyone | 03:41 |
| shtylman | and a pretty icon | 03:42 |
| claydoh | allways need a pretty icon | 03:42 |
| shtylman | always | 03:42 |
| claydoh | and the timestamps might need to go on the users' end, if I am being picky :) | 03:43 |
| claydoh | and make it a plasma widget too :) | 03:43 |
| claydoh | just kidding on that one | 03:44 |
| shtylman | haha | 03:45 |
| shtylman | users' end? | 03:45 |
| shtylman | like after the name? | 03:45 |
| shtylman | im always used to them being before | 03:45 |
| shtylman | but I do wanna shorten it | 03:46 |
| shtylman | might even remove it | 03:46 |
| shtylman | or take the seconds off | 03:46 |
| claydoh | well, the timestamps might look to 'geeky', maybe more , um intimidating, perhaps tho I am no design person | 03:47 |
| txwikinger | hi shtylman | 03:47 |
| shtylman | txwikinger: hey | 03:47 |
| * txwikinger was tempted to say hi NY :D | 03:47 | |
| claydoh | intimidating is too strong a word rather | 03:47 |
| shtylman | claydoh: I see what you mean | 03:47 |
| shtylman | txwikinger: hahah | 03:47 |
| claydoh | http://castrojo.wordpress.com/2009/11/28/attack-of-the-killer-bs/ we need k-sides :) | 03:52 |
| mistrynitesh | launchpad down? | 06:00 |
| kb9vqf | seems to be | 06:16 |
| binarylooks | where is the automatic start of plasma-desktop configured? | 10:45 |
| binarylooks | built from trunk today, and somehow plasma-desktop is gone (running it via krunner still works) | 10:45 |
| Tm_T | binarylooks: you built it and installed it to where? | 10:46 |
| Tm_T | binarylooks: oh and look what pinotree is about to say | 10:47 |
| binarylooks | Tm_T: thanks for your help, pinotree in kde-devel suggested removing plasma-desktop.desktop from autrun, and now it works | 10:51 |
| binarylooks | at last my build environment is fully functional | 10:52 |
| Tm_T | binarylooks: aye, that's the usual thing | 10:52 |
| apachelogger | JontheEchidna: its not like anyone else had broken kmail :P | 11:07 |
| apachelogger | hence there were plenty of peeps to send mails | 11:08 |
| Quintasan | Grrrrr | 11:09 |
| Quintasan | I want bigger res than 800x600 in KVM :/ | 11:09 |
| amichair | I want plasma-desktop to take up less than 785M of memory and 31 hours of cpu in 17 days | 11:13 |
| markey | moin | 11:18 |
| markey | Kubuntu still randomly forgets to see some USB devices on boot | 11:18 |
| markey | not good :) | 11:18 |
| markey | doesn't only happen here, but on another computer too | 11:19 |
| markey | could be a bug | 11:19 |
| amichair | Mamarok: I think I've found the cause of the plasma memory leak I stumbled upon yesterday when u were helpling me out | 12:20 |
| amichair | not sure yet, but it appears to be in thumbnail previews of tasks on the taskbar | 12:20 |
| amichair | by just moving back and forth between two tasks and showing their thumbnails (changing content, e.g. htop in konsole and konversation) - plasma-desktop gains 1MB in 20 seconds or so | 12:21 |
| Mamarok | lart aseigo for not having conceived plasma widgets as individual tasks... | 12:22 |
| Mamarok | they should really rework that, it is a major annoyance | 12:22 |
| amichair | Mamarok: any chance u can confirm this? | 12:22 |
| Mamarok | amichair: nope, no plasma problems here, but there are many, many, mayn bug reports for that on bko IIRC | 12:23 |
| amichair | if u run htop in konsole and then repeatedly show/hide the task thumbnail (just move on the button for a sec, then off for a sec), do u see plasma-desktop RES++ after half a minute? | 12:25 |
| apachelogger | ScottK: btw, I do not think that you are at fault at all ... at best we are all responsible for not establishing a clear policy in regards to meeting organization, also, as I already told JontheEchidna, it's not like anyone who actually did get to vote, couldnt have noticed the lack of announcement on the ml and send such a mail | 12:26 |
| amichair | Mamarok: I've just played around with this for a few minutes, and got plasma-desktop to rise from 785M to 801M RES... so that's definitely bad | 12:31 |
| Mamarok | well, it's inhereent to the plasma architecture, as I said, a single process for everything is not a good idea | 12:33 |
| Mamarok | they should start a migration to individual processes for KDE 4.5 ASAP, since we will run into even bigger problems over time | 12:33 |
| amichair | I'm not sure a separate process for taskbar thumbnails would help... I think proper memory management would :-) | 12:39 |
| apachelogger | 50 bucks that the leak is neither in plasma nor the taskbar applet | 12:42 |
| markey | so, out of the blue (didn't touch anything), KDE just told me: "New Device Detected (NewMedia)!" | 13:17 |
| markey | something is not quite right there... :) | 13:17 |
| markey | HAL borked, udev borked, Solid borked? | 13:18 |
| markey | I can only guess | 13:18 |
| Sput | ah, did the new brainwave interface go online? | 13:24 |
| Sput | so maybe it picked up your brain cinema :) | 13:24 |
| markey | hah | 13:28 |
| === emma_ is now known as emma | ||
| ScottK | apachelogger: Since no one else was doing it, I asked JontheEchidna to make the doodle poll and then I decided to talk to the people that needed to be there on IRC. Since that's not an acceptable method to the community, I'm just not going to do it anymore. | 14:06 |
| JontheEchidna | ScottK: I do appreciate the organizational work you did for the meeting, and I'm sorry it got you put in the hot seat. :( | 14:33 |
| JontheEchidna | I do appreciate/understand your decision to not do such organizational work in the future, however. | 14:33 |
| Quintasan | JontheEchidna: http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/details.py?upid=7092 please review if you have time | 14:36 |
| JontheEchidna | revuing now | 14:37 |
| txwikinger | ScottK: Please do not blow misunderstandings out of proportion | 14:37 |
| txwikinger | I think it is very good when you take initiative | 14:37 |
| txwikinger | far better than when nothing is done | 14:37 |
| JontheEchidna | Quintasan: Overall a very good package. Just a few nitpicks: | 14:42 |
| JontheEchidna | -The cmake build-dep isn't required since kdelibs5-dev depends on cmake | 14:43 |
| JontheEchidna | -The short description of a package usually does not have a period at the end | 14:43 |
| amichair | JontheEchidna: I'm working some more on notifier, let me know if u'r gonna too so we don't do duplicate work | 14:43 |
| JontheEchidna | -The long description of a package usually *does* have a period at the end ;-) | 14:43 |
| JontheEchidna | Quintasan: so that I don't waste Riddell's ack I can, with your permission, just change these little things myself and sponsor your upload | 14:44 |
| JontheEchidna | amichair: I've not touched it; figured you were up to neat stuff with hooks ;-) | 14:44 |
| amichair | JontheEchidna: I didn't mean to take over or anything, it's still ur baby, I'm just babysitting for a bit :-) | 14:47 |
| JontheEchidna | oh, don't worry. I don't see it that way and I very much appreciate your experience/contributions | 14:47 |
| JontheEchidna | http://lifehacker.com/5414288/top-10-apps-you-can-use-just-about-anywhere <- Number one is a Qt app, which says somethin about Qt's cross-platformness | 14:49 |
| amichair | are there QT phones around yet? | 14:50 |
| tsimpson | Quick Time phones? ;) | 14:53 |
| * amichair runs away in horror | 14:53 | |
| JontheEchidna | No Qt phones in the public, though that's what Nokia's working on next | 14:55 |
| * amichair crawls back hesitantly | 14:55 | |
| amichair | so cross platfrom on desktops, for the time being? | 14:56 |
| JontheEchidna | yeah | 14:59 |
| JontheEchidna | though you'll see from time to time blogs showing the random KDE app running on a mobile device | 14:59 |
| Mamarok | amichair: the post N900 will use Qt | 15:01 |
| amichair | JontheEchidna: should the 'seen' hooks be written in the notifierhelper configuration (where the other settings go)? or is it supposed to be system-wide unique? | 15:01 |
| Mamarok | and some of the N900 apps are done with Qt already | 15:01 |
| amichair | Mamarok: cool. wonder how much phone marketshare Qt will gain... | 15:02 |
| Mamarok | all of it I hope ;) | 15:02 |
| Quintasan | JontheEchidna: sure if you can please fix them and upload, sorry for taking time, was playing stepmania :P | 15:03 |
| amichair | well it's a good thing I'm learning a bit Qt, I guess :-) | 15:03 |
| JontheEchidna | amichair: I would say global. update-notifier-kde did it that way | 15:04 |
| JontheEchidna | Quintasan: ok, I'll get to it right after I get back from walking the dog (which I am doing right now, bbiab) | 15:05 |
| Mamarok | there is something I must have missed, but did you folks shove KDE 4.4 into proposed? | 15:08 |
| Mamarok | tsimpson: that's what that guy in #k is talking about, right? | 15:08 |
| tsimpson | Mamarok: not exactly, he's just talking about the option to enable "pre-release updates", which is how -proposed is described in the GUI | 15:10 |
| tsimpson | asking if it's a good idea or not | 15:10 |
| Mamarok | ok, but there are no pre-release stuff in there really? | 15:10 |
| tsimpson | it mostly what goes into -updates, after testing | 15:11 |
| Mamarok | that repo description is a bit misleading IMHO | 15:11 |
| txwikinger | pre-released in what regard? | 15:11 |
| Mamarok | testing should not be available elsewhere than in PPAs I think, but again, MHO | 15:12 |
| tsimpson | is's software-properties-kde descriptions | 15:12 |
| txwikinger | it can mean pre-released for kubuntu i.e. it is moved into proper repo when released in kubuntu | 15:12 |
| txwikinger | or it can mean pre-release in KDE | 15:12 |
| apachelogger | it means | 15:13 |
| apachelogger | "pre-released updates" | 15:13 |
| tsimpson | it's <release>-proposed, so it's ubuntu (not gnome/kde/whatever) | 15:13 |
| apachelogger | in the context of a kubuntu application, since policy suggest that no ubuntu app should handle updates independelty of apt | 15:13 |
| tsimpson | *not specifically... | 15:13 |
| Mamarok | never understood the point of actually having that repo if it's not targeted at end-users anyway | 15:13 |
| tsimpson | for testing packages before going into -updates | 15:14 |
| txwikinger | Mamarok: why not... I often put packages in my ppa ony for testing purposes | 15:14 |
| Mamarok | tsimpson: which is clearly not for end users, so why is it available there? Should be a PPA instead | 15:14 |
| Quintasan | apachelogger: who the is setting invites for bunker? | 15:14 |
| tsimpson | Mamarok: it existed long before PPAs did | 15:14 |
| apachelogger | Quintasan: vorian, I happened to forget how to set a permanent invite | 15:14 |
| tsimpson | apachelogger: +I | 15:15 |
| Quintasan | hmm, okay, I changed my isp and I'm not longer invited | 15:15 |
| * Mamarok would like to know what that bunker is btw | 15:15 | |
| Quintasan | our super duper ultra sectet channel | 15:15 |
| tsimpson | apachelogger: or just use chanservs flags | 15:15 |
| txwikinger | invite? | 15:15 |
| Mamarok | Quintasan: for what purpose? | 15:16 |
| Mamarok | hidden for membres apparently too | 15:16 |
| txwikinger | why are there secret channels in open source? | 15:16 |
| Mamarok | members* | 15:16 |
| tsimpson | Mamarok: we could tell you, but then we'd have to kill you ;) | 15:16 |
| Quintasan | :D | 15:16 |
| Mamarok | tsimpson: very funny | 15:16 |
| txwikinger | open source lives on transparency... secrecy is for freemasons | 15:16 |
| txwikinger | and even they are very open nowadays | 15:16 |
| ghostcube | illuminaty :D | 15:17 |
| ghostcube | i have known apachelogger isnt an normal guy | 15:17 |
| Mamarok | tsimpson: I really don't see why Kubuntu members hear about secret channels and are not informed what it is | 15:17 |
| * Mamarok wonders what that membership is there for then, if contributors are kept in secret | 15:17 | |
| apachelogger | right | 15:18 |
| apachelogger | that channel is where I happen to do orgies | 15:18 |
| apachelogger | nothing of general interest | 15:18 |
| Quintasan | O_o | 15:18 |
| apachelogger | we just meet there have fun time and thats it | 15:18 |
| Mamarok | so I am excluded from the fun? How very nice of you... | 15:19 |
| Quintasan | Lex79: are you an uber-fast kde packaging machine or you have over 9000 machines to do multipe compilations at once? :D | 15:19 |
| apachelogger | he just doesnt do QA :P | 15:20 |
| apachelogger | that is how I did it :P | 15:20 |
| Quintasan | lol | 15:21 |
| Quintasan | apachelogger: hmm if all ninjas are going to be you, then we will have not QA :P | 15:23 |
| Quintasan | apachelogger: I'm refering to https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/GettingInvolved/Development ofc :P | 15:24 |
| apachelogger | that is why it is impossible that all ninjas end up being me :P | 15:24 |
| Mamarok | communication #fail apparently... | 15:27 |
| txwikinger | apachelogger: Is there a list of things tobe done? | 15:29 |
| amichair | where is the config file for KGlobal::config() stored? | 15:29 |
| * txwikinger found an error in his pcb design on ktechlab | 15:30 | |
| JontheEchidna | amichair: ~/.kde/share/config/kdeglobal | 15:31 |
| Nightrose | Quintasan: was it you who wanted to look into getting neon to karmic? | 15:31 |
| Quintasan | Nightrose: yes | 15:31 |
| Quintasan | apachelogger said something about it being dead | 15:31 |
| Nightrose | Quintasan: ah cool - any progress? | 15:31 |
| amichair | JontheEchidna: that's per-user... how do I get to the global? | 15:31 |
| Nightrose | noooooo | 15:31 |
| * Quintasan pokes apachelogger | 15:31 | |
| Nightrose | really we need it back | 15:31 |
| Nightrose | it is important | 15:31 |
| JontheEchidna | amichair: that's as global as it gets, I think | 15:31 |
| ScottK | txwikinger: If I was going to organize such a meeting again, I would do it the same way. Clearly this isn't acceptable to people so really the only possibility is I don't do it. | 15:32 |
| apachelogger | txwikinger: to be done in what regards? | 15:33 |
| txwikinger | ScottK: what is the problem than someone must not be you also puts it on the mailing list? | 15:33 |
| ScottK | txwikinger: IMO the people who are complaining about a situation where everyone who needed to be scheduled for the meeting is there are the ones blowing stuff out of proportion. | 15:33 |
| txwikinger | this is not a big issue, but doesn't hurt either | 15:33 |
| ScottK | txwikinger: Then they can schedule it. | 15:33 |
| apachelogger | Quintasan: huh?? | 15:33 |
| ScottK | For a small meeting that needs just 6 people, I'd rather just ask them. | 15:33 |
| txwikinger | ScottK: Yes.. I think the issue is hotter than it needs to be | 15:33 |
| ScottK | txwikinger: I agree, but I'm not the one that started complaining about non-issues. | 15:34 |
| txwikinger | apachelogger: it regards to development for Kubuntu needed | 15:34 |
| Quintasan | [sobota 28 listopada 2009] [14:22:08] <apachelogger> project neon is dead | 15:34 |
| Quintasan | apachelogger: ^ | 15:34 |
| * apachelogger thinks the only issue there is an issue of communication fail in that people didnt know who would be involved in the meeting | 15:34 | |
| apachelogger | which is more of a documentation sort anyway | 15:35 |
| txwikinger | ScottK: I did not say you did. I just said that I would find it a loss of for everybody if you feel stopped to do good things because of it | 15:35 |
| apachelogger | also... I would only have strived for a quorum to begin with, thus being even less organizingly :D | 15:35 |
| ScottK | txwikinger: I understand. | 15:35 |
| apachelogger | txwikinger: not yet, though there should be | 15:35 |
| txwikinger | apachelogger: cool | 15:35 |
| apachelogger | you could create one :P | 15:36 |
| apachelogger | though I always wanted to have some decent software for that | 15:36 |
| apachelogger | nothing in sight | 15:36 |
| txwikinger | apachelogger: I probably could :D | 15:36 |
| apachelogger | which keeps my personal motivation for maintaing a todo rather low :S | 15:36 |
| apachelogger | Quintasan: well yes, what was the poke for? | 15:36 |
| Quintasan | Project Neon, Nightrose was asking how's the progress | 15:36 |
| apachelogger | Nightrose knows that I am not maintaining any longer :P | 15:37 |
| apachelogger | though I actually uploaded the tools package the other day | 15:37 |
| Nightrose | apachelogger: yes which is why i want someone else to take over - for example Quintasan | 15:37 |
| Quintasan | ah | 15:37 |
| apachelogger | I quickly got turned off by the horrible file structure I mastered up there | 15:37 |
| apachelogger | clearly not a very efficient design | 15:37 |
| apachelogger | in fact a very crappy one | 15:38 |
| * apachelogger is ashamed of it anyhow :S | 15:38 | |
| apachelogger | Quintasan: well, did you get started? :P | 15:38 |
| Quintasan | apachelogger: ./amarok.rb fails to grab the source | 15:38 |
| Quintasan | I propably need some sort of account to connect to ftp.kde.org don't I? | 15:39 |
| txwikinger | ftp? shouldn't the connect be to a revision system? | 15:40 |
| Quintasan | svn+ssh://sitter@svn.kde.org/#{branch}/#{path} | 15:40 |
| Quintasan | :D | 15:40 |
| txwikinger | well... pull should be available for anon | 15:40 |
| ScottK | svn+ssh isn't for anon | 15:41 |
| txwikinger | well.. svn is | 15:41 |
| Quintasan | hmm changed to svn://anonsvn.kde.org | 15:42 |
| Quintasan | and it works | 15:42 |
| Quintasan | apachelogger: what do I need to do expect running amarok.rb? :P | 15:42 |
| Quintasan | there are some publisher scripts but hell, dunno wth they do | 15:43 |
| txwikinger | another example why svn should be retired for bzr :D | 15:43 |
| ScottK | bzr has similar issues | 15:44 |
| apachelogger | git pwns them both :P | 15:44 |
| txwikinger | but it is easier to branch and merge | 15:44 |
| apachelogger | Quintasan: publisher do nothing at all | 15:44 |
| txwikinger | for distributed env | 15:44 |
| ScottK | BTW, anon svn (or bzr) pulls are potentially exploitable using DNS cache poisoing. | 15:44 |
| apachelogger | you want to look at distros/ubuntu.rb | 15:44 |
| apachelogger | Quintasan: though, you probably just want to look at amarok.rb itself | 15:45 |
| txwikinger | well.. with a launchpad account that is not a problem because you don't need anon | 15:45 |
| apachelogger | Quintasan: depend on the arguments it will try to fetch the source of qt, kdesupport and amarok, then invoke the distros/ubuntu.rb stuff which is trying to create pacakges with those sources | 15:45 |
| apachelogger | Quintasan: the fun part here is that qt now must come from git, so you probably need to hack into fetcher.rb and port the qt code to git | 15:46 |
| apachelogger | which should be only copynpaste from the amarok stuff, which I hopefully ported to git at some point :D | 15:46 |
| apachelogger | txwikinger: with kde svn account you dont need anon either :P | 15:46 |
| apachelogger | txwikinger: that logic is flawed | 15:46 |
| txwikinger | well.. is it as easy to get a kde svn account as a launchpad account? | 15:47 |
| txwikinger | furthermore, you cannot create a svn branch without write access | 15:47 |
| apachelogger | depends on time of day | 15:47 |
| mistrynitesh | nixternal: i have made the changes in the source of 'about kubuntu' page, but having permissions problem in validating it. Can I send the diff file. The page looks good. | 15:48 |
| txwikinger | I can always create a bzr branch on launchpad without being a committer to the main branch | 15:48 |
| apachelogger | txwikinger: that is an architectural paradigm of centralized version control | 15:48 |
| apachelogger | what you are arguing is centralized vs decentralized | 15:48 |
| txwikinger | exactly... that's why I said svn should be retired | 15:48 |
| apachelogger | which is WIP anyway :P | 15:48 |
| txwikinger | I like decentralized a lot better | 15:48 |
| apachelogger | bzr is just no better if you take away the paradigms | 15:49 |
| Quintasan | I would hell want to know where comp variable is defined | 15:49 |
| * txwikinger did not argue qqaulity of any revision system | 15:49 | |
| * txwikinger cannot type | 15:49 | |
| apachelogger | <txwikinger> another example why svn should be retired for bzr :D | 15:49 |
| txwikinger | well.. lauchpad uses bzr... that was the initiator | 15:50 |
| Nightrose | ~order cookies for Quintasan | 15:50 |
| * kubotu slides a whole bunch of world's finest cookies down the bar to Quintasan. | 15:50 | |
| apachelogger | txwikinger: kde does not use launchpad though :P | 15:50 |
| txwikinger | we use launchpad at *buntu | 15:50 |
| txwikinger | well.. use git bzr whatever... was just an example | 15:50 |
| * txwikinger uses git and bzr a lot | 15:51 | |
| * txwikinger is more interested to reduce the on-ramp for potential contributors than any religious wars | 15:51 | |
| apachelogger | Quintasan: comp? | 15:54 |
| apachelogger | in fetcher.rb IIRC | 15:54 |
| Quintasan | urgh this is a mess | 15:54 |
| Quintasan | I can't find the line which tells the git adress | 15:54 |
| apachelogger | if not defined by that, libfetch.rb will probably apply magic | 15:54 |
| apachelogger | Quintasan: I told you that it is dirty :P | 15:54 |
| apachelogger | Quintasan: checkOutGit(comp, "git://gitorious.org/amarok/amarok.git", "amarok-nightly") | 15:55 |
| Quintasan | that's the line for amarok | 15:55 |
| apachelogger | yeah | 15:55 |
| Quintasan | I need to get Qt from git not svn, right? | 15:55 |
| apachelogger | but where is the problem? | 15:55 |
| apachelogger | comp = "qt" | 15:55 |
| apachelogger | checkOutGit(comp, "git://FANCYURL", "qt") | 15:56 |
| apachelogger | createTar("qt") | 15:57 |
| apachelogger | that is all you should need to do in fetchQtCopy() | 15:57 |
| apachelogger | since patches are applied in the kde-qt branch AFAIK | 15:57 |
| apachelogger | so the whole patch applying magic becomes obsolete | 15:58 |
| Quintasan | well still pulling kdesupport :P | 15:59 |
| Quintasan | urgh, oxygen | 15:59 |
| apachelogger | Quintasan: might want to comment out kdesupport and amarok for now | 16:00 |
| apachelogger | first get qt done, then work your way up | 16:00 |
| Quintasan | IDC if it syncs now or later :P | 16:00 |
| Quintasan | better sync now then fight with code | 16:01 |
| apachelogger | hehe | 16:04 |
| amichair | is there a preferred md5 utility function for cpp/kde/qt somewhere? | 16:10 |
| apachelogger | amichair: I think there is an own md5 class | 16:11 |
| apachelogger | api.kde.org will know more | 16:11 |
| Quintasan | Nightrose: I probably won't finish it sooner than Thursady, school etc. | 16:12 |
| Nightrose | Quintasan: that's ok - as long as it gets done at some point and not in 100 years ;-) | 16:12 |
| Nightrose | as long as someone is working on it i'm happy | 16:12 |
| ryanakca | apachelogger: Would you be interested in sponsoring bangarang to Lucid? It was uploaded to Debian unstable a few days ago. | 16:12 |
| apachelogger | if revu is up again | 16:13 |
| Quintasan | apachelogger: it is | 16:13 |
| ryanakca | apachelogger: Lemme check that the one on REVU is the most up to date (packaging is stored in the Debian Multimedia Maintainer Team's git repo) | 16:14 |
| apachelogger | watch file is missing! | 16:14 |
| apachelogger | omg! | 16:14 |
| Mamarok | Riddell: please ping me when you are around for a PM | 16:15 |
| apachelogger | ryanakca: Jani Huhtanen does not really claim copyright on anything | 16:18 |
| apachelogger | or Andrew just removed his copyright :P | 16:18 |
| apachelogger | aye got removed | 16:19 |
| * txwikinger found that the most frustrating part of packaging new packages... when authors do not put proper copyright and licensing into the sources | 16:19 | |
| * apachelogger supports that observation | 16:20 | |
| ryanakca | apachelogger: Diff between Debian and Ubuntu (assuming siretart didn't change anything when he uploaded): http://paste.ubuntu.com/331162/ | 16:20 |
| apachelogger | ryanakca: what is with the manual deps for the binary package? | 16:20 |
| * apachelogger needs to leave for train | 16:22 | |
| apachelogger | ryanakca: package should be fine otherwise | 16:22 |
| ryanakca | apachelogger: As in the justification for them? | 16:23 |
| apachelogger | justify + document | 16:23 |
| apachelogger | and fix copyright file | 16:23 |
| apachelogger | and add watch file | 16:23 |
| ryanakca | apachelogger: Watch file not possible because it comes from kde-apps and upstream doesn't have anywhere else to host the tarballs | 16:23 |
| apachelogger | also on less important matter.. it probably would be nice if you'd provide a xpm for the menu file | 16:24 |
| ryanakca | apachelogger: OK... justify in the changelog? | 16:24 |
| apachelogger | also, as to hosting ... upstream could probably use the google code project he uses anyway :P | 16:25 |
| apachelogger | ryanakca: yes, unregular stuff needs to be documented in the changelog, well, you dont need to document the watchfileyness | 16:25 |
| * ryanakca will email Andrew about removing Jani's copyright :) | 16:26 | |
| apachelogger | no | 16:26 |
| apachelogger | why? | 16:26 |
| ryanakca | or wait. Jani, that's the blur.cpp person... they don't use that anymore. | 16:26 |
| apachelogger | Jani had copyright on blur.cpp/h which was conflicting with gpl | 16:26 |
| * ryanakca thought it was another upstream author | 16:26 | |
| apachelogger | you just need to update the copyright :P | 16:27 |
| apachelogger | really need to leave now | 16:27 |
| ryanakca | However, Andrew has two or three other heavy contributors, but I don't see their copyright anywhere. Oh well. | 16:27 |
| ryanakca | apachelogger: OK, cheers :) | 16:27 |
| Quintasan | apachelogger: urgh, I need to launch kde.rb first | 16:29 |
| Quintasan | :P | 16:29 |
| Quintasan | apachelogger: and where I should publish the packages? | 16:29 |
| Quintasan | http://ppa.launchpad.net/project-neon/ubuntu/pool/main/a/amarok-nightly doesnt work | 16:30 |
| Quintasan | argh, I've set to publish to my PPA | 16:30 |
| * txwikinger should maybe get some breakfast | 16:31 | |
| Quintasan | apachelogger: hmmm building of amarok-nightly fails at clear phase but that's ignored, it should be like this? | 16:34 |
| amichair | JontheEchidna: taking md5 of file content + filename + modification time will do? any change to them should popup a new notification? | 16:41 |
| JontheEchidna | Yeah, sounds right | 16:42 |
| JontheEchidna | well, the kdirwatch should pick up any changes. We just have to check if the md5sum really did change | 16:44 |
| JontheEchidna | but hten that is what is triggering the whole new notification irst place | 16:47 |
| JontheEchidna | maybe we could create a new class doing our md5+config stuff that we could replace the KDirWatch in NotificationHelperModule with? | 16:48 |
| JontheEchidna | man, this is all getting a little complicated | 16:51 |
| amichair | the devil's in the details... | 16:52 |
| amichair | and in my fridge too. scary. | 16:52 |
| amichair | JontheEchidna: also we need to pick things up after reboot, if the notifier was down and then started, etc | 16:53 |
| amichair | last but not least - preserve backward compatibility with update-notification-kde so we don't show things that it already marked as finished | 16:54 |
| amichair | about gnome/kde, nothing simple to do - the spec is broken. a dual-desktop will receive notifications in both, and run everything twice... | 16:54 |
| JontheEchidna | It's a 4 year old spec written with a single desktop in mind | 16:55 |
| amichair | also this config is not systemwide within kde, so two users will both see the notifications and run them twice | 16:57 |
| JontheEchidna | luckily upgrade hooks aren't all that common | 16:58 |
| amichair | yeah... that would have forced us to do things right :-P | 16:59 |
| amichair | JontheEchidna: updates waiting for u in branch :-) | 17:56 |
| JontheEchidna | huh, KMD5. Who knew? :P | 18:00 |
| amichair | apachelogger! he knew! :-) | 18:01 |
| ghostcube | who likes star trek ? | 18:02 |
| amichair | who doesn't? | 18:02 |
| ghostcube | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMBtRoTPrJw | 18:02 |
| ghostcube | watch this | 18:02 |
| ghostcube | :D | 18:02 |
| Riddell | evening | 18:03 |
| ghostcube | hi | 18:03 |
| ScottK | Good evening Riddell. | 18:03 |
| Riddell | Mamarok: what's up? | 18:03 |
| Riddell | Quintasan: how do I add you to invites? | 18:03 |
| amichair | evening Riddell | 18:03 |
| ScottK | Riddell: Any chance you could approve https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kubuntu-lucid-netbook-packaging | 18:03 |
| Riddell | hi amichair | 18:04 |
| Quintasan | Riddell: beats me, it turns out I need to poke vorian. | 18:04 |
| Quintasan | because only he know how to do this | 18:04 |
| Riddell | I always find IRC commands obscure | 18:05 |
| amichair | Mamarok: I filed the memory leak bug in kde - hope they fix it by 4.4 | 18:05 |
| Riddell | maybe I should use one of these fancy new GUI clients :) | 18:05 |
| Mamarok | Riddell: nvm, I need to rethink first | 18:05 |
| txwikinger | Howdy Riddell | 18:05 |
| amichair | JontheEchidna: do we have all notification basics covered, enough for it to be usable? was there something else? | 18:06 |
| JontheEchidna | for hooks or in general? | 18:07 |
| Riddell | ScottK: I think I'll just approve all our specs | 18:07 |
| ScottK | Riddell: I'm good with that. | 18:07 |
| amichair | JontheEchidna: umm.... both? | 18:07 |
| JontheEchidna | Yeah, I think everything's usable. Now it just needs a good bit of testing done | 18:08 |
| JontheEchidna | amichair: you should add your name to the copyright headers for the hook classes. A lot of that stuff is your code | 18:12 |
| JontheEchidna | amichair: Everything's merged now. Works great. | 18:23 |
| amichair | JontheEchidna: I'm looking at the installevent now. looks pretty straightforward. | 18:23 |
| JontheEchidna | Glad to hear it. I'm proud of that one; my first experience with (Qt)DBus | 18:24 |
| amichair | JontheEchidna: how did u test it? what scenario pops it up? | 18:25 |
| JontheEchidna | uninstall libxine1-ffmpeg, run dragonplayer | 18:25 |
| JontheEchidna | The long-term plan is that PackageKit gets batch install via DBus and we can depreciate InstallEvent once the apps can communicate directly with KPK | 18:27 |
| JontheEchidna | The short-term plan is to implement the DBus spec as it was in update-notifier-kde until long-term can be implemented | 18:27 |
| JontheEchidna | minimal changes since this is an LTS, etc | 18:27 |
| amichair | you must mean deprecate... it's a common typo that almost makes sense :-) | 18:28 |
| amichair | JontheEchidna: in that case, I won't bother with semantic fixes | 18:30 |
| JontheEchidna | semantic fixes? | 18:31 |
| amichair | JontheEchidna: like reducing the duplicate code in installevent::getinfo | 18:31 |
| JontheEchidna | oh, I was talking more about the actual DBus spec | 18:31 |
| amichair | JontheEchidna: or getting rid of the packageToggled event which is not needed | 18:31 |
| amichair | oh, so this code will continue to live on? | 18:32 |
| JontheEchidna | well, it'll be in service for at least 10.04 | 18:32 |
| JontheEchidna | Or at least we should plan on it being in service for 10.04, since I don't know exactly when the PackageKit goodness is coming | 18:33 |
| amichair | JontheEchidna: I see only one real (small) bug - if u deselect all packages and click ok | 18:35 |
| amichair | ok, I'll give it just a bit of work, and u can take whatever changes u like | 18:35 |
| JontheEchidna | Oh, does that invoke install-package with nothign to install? | 18:35 |
| amichair | yep | 18:35 |
| JontheEchidna | heh | 18:35 |
| amichair | which is the proper copyright form, "(c) 2009 by x" or "(c) 2009 x" (u and apache have it different) | 18:38 |
| JontheEchidna | oh yeah... I forgot to make that consistent | 18:39 |
| JontheEchidna | Copyright <year> <name of author> <e-mail> | 18:40 |
| JontheEchidna | or so sez the almighty KDE licensing policy | 18:40 |
| JontheEchidna | I'll consistify everything except the install classes to prevent merge conflicts | 18:41 |
| amichair | no conflicts, don't worry. go for it. | 18:41 |
| bbigras | anyone knows if there's going to be an updated package for glibc to fix the malloc_check crashes? http://www.purinchu.net/wp/2009/11/16/malloc_check_-crashes/ | 18:43 |
| JontheEchidna | ^I did file a bug against the eglibc package about that. No response yet | 18:45 |
| bbigras | thanks | 18:46 |
| JontheEchidna | amichair: ok, I'm all done with license headers | 18:48 |
| Mamarok | AFAIK it is already solved upstream, and theer are patches available (the glibc problem I mean) | 18:49 |
| Mamarok | we are hit regularly with that on Amarok | 18:50 |
| Mamarok | like, an average 10 bugs a week I have to close as dupes because of it | 18:50 |
| bbigras | JontheEchidna: do you by chance still have the bug #? | 19:01 |
| JontheEchidna | bug 425723 | 19:02 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 425723 in glibc "kdevelop assert failure: *** glibc detected *** kdevelop: free(): invalid pointer: 0xbfc22c44 ***" [Unknown,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/425723 | 19:02 |
| bbigras | thanks | 19:03 |
| amichair | JontheEchidna: the 'once install is finished you need to restart' notification is problematic | 19:31 |
| amichair | JontheEchidna: it's too short-lived, and should come after the package is installed, not before... I assume this is a temp patch until kpk? | 19:32 |
| JontheEchidna | I originally thought that KToolInvocation would return 0 on install-package finishing successfully | 19:33 |
| JontheEchidna | but it didn't... so I changed the text a bit | 19:33 |
| JontheEchidna | A KProcess would give me the exit code, but KProcess also blocks KDED until install-package has exited | 19:34 |
| amichair | so it's basically the same problem as with hooks, where we should remove them only after successful completion | 19:34 |
| JontheEchidna | right. No clue how to do it, though | 19:35 |
| amichair | in any case, is there at least a way to make the current notification stick around for longer? | 19:35 |
| JontheEchidna | I think there's a timer we can set | 19:35 |
| amichair | JontheEchidna: the solution is probably to run and block for kprocess in a separate thread, and send a completion signal when done. | 19:36 |
| JontheEchidna | threading is so much fun | 19:36 |
| amichair | although it doesn't solve the hook's terminal=true scenario, in which I couldn't find a way to get the process result code at all | 19:36 |
| JontheEchidna | we could just add konsole before the hook command when terminal = true | 19:37 |
| JontheEchidna | then use a (threaded) KProcess method that returns the exit code | 19:38 |
| amichair | JontheEchidna: I tried that, but then u get the exit code from konsole, and not whatever it was running (which is always success) | 19:40 |
| JontheEchidna | oh yeah | 19:40 |
| amichair | I tried 'konsole -e sh -c' or 'konsole -e' and looked for some argument that may help, but didn't find nada | 19:40 |
| JontheEchidna | We could perhaps get install-package to emit an "install finished" message over DBus that we could listen for | 19:41 |
| JontheEchidna | but then that would happen for any instance of install-package, so that wouldn't work... | 19:42 |
| JontheEchidna | maybe we should just bump the notification's timeout to 15 seconds? | 19:42 |
| amichair | JontheEchidna: both would work. the latter probably much simpler, and since it's a short-ish term patch... | 19:45 |
| JontheEchidna | yeah, I would lean towards the latter too | 19:46 |
| amichair | take from branch - just small stuff. it all looks ok. | 19:46 |
| JontheEchidna | all looks very sane | 19:48 |
| amichair | JontheEchidna: a small tip, if I may? | 19:50 |
| JontheEchidna | go right ahead | 19:50 |
| Quintasan | we have a package for akonadi google calendar support right? anyone got it to work? | 19:51 |
| amichair | if one finds himself copy+pasting a section of code, even just a few lines, and just changing a variable name or string value, it's a good idea to extract that common functionality to a separate method and call it with the changing arguments. it's shorter, cleaner, and safer (bug-wise)... | 19:52 |
| amichair | :-) | 19:55 |
| JontheEchidna | it just takes a little bit of experience to catch yourself doing that I suppose | 19:59 |
| amichair | yes, that's true for any habit or guideline :-) | 20:01 |
| amichair | mainly there's a switch that happens once you really see/feel the pain of bad vs. good practices. and then, u still have to remember, but at least you really know what's goor or bad. | 20:03 |
| JontheEchidna | In my case I started out with python, which is bad practice in general. :P | 20:04 |
| amichair | lol | 20:04 |
| amichair | how long have u been at it? | 20:04 |
| JontheEchidna | python? I began with the PyQt4 -> PyKDE4 port of software-properties-kde in late '08 | 20:05 |
| JontheEchidna | basically change a few Q's to K's, change the code where the API dictates | 20:06 |
| ScottK | JontheEchidna: Python can be a great place to start. It's quite often used in Computer Science curricula for intro courses. The point about not copying code that amichair made applies equally well in Python. | 20:06 |
| JontheEchidna | yeah, that's true | 20:07 |
| JontheEchidna | python does have a nice built-in list/tuple/dict api. I will give it that | 20:08 |
| amichair | the one thing I like about it is built-in multiple return values, which I miss in other languages | 20:08 |
| JontheEchidna | but mostly I think it's misused | 20:08 |
| JontheEchidna | Oh, I also liked the forced whitespace. If C++ had forced whitespace, code would be much cleaner. | 20:09 |
| JontheEchidna | a bunch of fat, bearded nerds would revolt though | 20:10 |
| amichair | agghh... I hate it. it's totally pointless. | 20:10 |
| ScottK | amichair: It provides a very readable structure. | 20:10 |
| JontheEchidna | I guess it's a matter of taste | 20:10 |
| amichair | haven't seen any code in any language where proper indentation is not used in any case. forcing it doesn't change anything, other than being annoying. | 20:10 |
| ScottK | amichair: If you are going to use it, having it be the structure, IMO, makes complete sense. | 20:11 |
| amichair | ScottK: in some cases I'd agree, in this particular case, not so much... it's a solution to a non-problem | 20:12 |
| amichair | and sometimes, just sometimes, breaking the normal pattern can be more readable and/or structured. and here u can't do that. | 20:13 |
| amichair | but that being said, it's not that bad. | 20:13 |
| amichair | using next-line open braces... now that's a real waste :-P | 20:13 |
| amichair | well the bolognese is ready... bbl | 20:16 |
| amichair | JontheEchidna: if u need anything else in the notifier, let me know | 20:34 |
| JontheEchidna | amichair: sure thing, thanks for the contributions | 20:46 |
| amichair | my pleasure :-) | 20:46 |
| amichair | btw are there any other components requiring work? | 20:46 |
| Riddell | amichair: have you tested how well software-properties intergration with kpackagekit is working? | 20:47 |
| Riddell | I think I had an issue where adding a new repository didn't show up the new version of the app I cared about in kpackagekit after it did the reload, but I couldn't recreate it | 20:48 |
| amichair | Riddell: I tested it mostly stand-alone, what integration is required? | 20:48 |
| Riddell | making sure kpackagekit shows the right thing after changing a repository | 20:48 |
| amichair | they don't communicate directly, do they? | 20:49 |
| Riddell | no, they just both use the apt cache | 20:49 |
| ScottK | It's be nice if someone who was at least vaguely familiar with kpackagekit would have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Specs/BackportsNotAutomatic and see what would need to be done to support this spec. | 20:49 |
| ScottK | It's/It'd | 20:49 |
| Riddell | amichair: oh and a big project with software-properties would be to port it to use policykit so it doesn't have to run as root, that's something mvo and glatzor have wanted for while (us too so it can be made into a kcontrol module) but not found time for | 20:50 |
| DarkwingDuck | wee just installed Lucid on my netbook | 20:51 |
| amichair | Riddell: I can read up a bit on pkit to see how much work it might be | 20:52 |
| ScottK | DarkwingDuck: It won't be a lot different yet. After we get 4.4 beta into the archive next week, then it'll be 'fun'. | 20:52 |
| DarkwingDuck | I'm full testing | 20:52 |
| DarkwingDuck | or rather, in full testing mode | 20:52 |
| DarkwingDuck | Maybe not be able to program but I can test the hell out of stuff | 20:53 |
| DarkwingDuck | what's up with the change to byobu? | 20:53 |
| ScottK | No idea. | 20:53 |
| ScottK | You might ask kirkland on #ubuntu-server. It's his project. | 20:53 |
| DarkwingDuck | anything in particular u need tested? | 20:54 |
| amichair | Riddell: btw there are a few sp bug reports that are outside of the code (or so it seems), so maybe a packager who knows it can check them out | 20:55 |
| ScottK | DarkwingDuck: Actually the next thing we'll need testing support for is 4.3.4 in Karmic. | 20:55 |
| ScottK | Once we get 4.4 beta though, then there will be plenty to test in Lucid | 20:56 |
| DarkwingDuck | Okay, I'm running Karmic on my desktop but, with my mainboard on the fritz it's fuzzy at best. | 20:56 |
| DarkwingDuck | I'll drop the 4.4 on my netbook when it's pushed. | 20:56 |
| ScottK | DarkwingDuck: Just wait for all of it. | 20:57 |
| ScottK | It takes quite a while to get an entire new KDE SC published. | 20:57 |
| DarkwingDuck | I'm flipping on byobu and see what it does... | 20:57 |
| amichair | hummm... I can't find my branch in lp, where'd it go? | 21:17 |
| ryanakca | apachelogger: http://packages.debian.org/sid/bangarang ... I guess I can requestsync and then drop the copyright once in Ubuntu? The changes have been commited to the packaging branch. | 21:18 |
| Riddell | amichair: https://code.launchpad.net/~amichai2/software-properties/fixes ? | 21:25 |
| amichair | no, the notification one. it says '3 branches' but shows only two... | 21:25 |
| Riddell | did you just push a new one? maybe it's not synced to launchpad yet | 21:27 |
| amichair | from a couple days ago | 21:28 |
| amichair | or maybe merged branches disappear of the list? wierd | 21:31 |
| amichair | ah, yes! | 21:32 |
| amichair | 'any active status' is different from 'any status', so it seems, and merged branches disappear of the former (default) list... sorry for the trouble | 21:32 |
| shtylman | what would be a good live assistant logo? | 21:49 |
| shtylman | was says assistant to you? | 21:49 |
| shtylman | a questionmark in a speech balloon maybe? | 21:50 |
| DarkwingDuck | an aardvark... I think the humor would be good | 21:50 |
| shtylman | haha | 21:50 |
| Riddell | a butler | 21:53 |
| amichair | I was thinking a butler too, with a mustache and napkin and all | 21:54 |
| amichair | or a nurse | 21:54 |
| amichair | or red cross/first aid thing, though that's a bit more related to fixing trouble | 21:54 |
| * kb9vqf likes shtylman's suggestion | 21:55 | |
| kb9vqf | The question mark is pretty well established as "Help!" | 21:55 |
| amichair | what does the assistant do? | 21:56 |
| shtylman | http://68.173.99.55/live/question.png | 21:57 |
| amichair | JontheEchidna: are any of the existing update-notifier-kde bugs relevant to the new notifier? | 21:57 |
| shtylman | amichair: makes it easy for new users to talk to a person about a particular problem they are having | 21:57 |
| amichair | how about a little talking paperclip with eyes? oh, wait... | 21:58 |
| amichair | shtylman: oh, like a live support chat? | 21:58 |
| amichair | with a human? | 21:59 |
| shtylman | amichair: yea | 22:00 |
| amichair | if that is so, then maybe it should include a human (head?) with the bubble/question mark... something to make it more related, coz question marks are usually associated with help of the 'RTFM' kind... | 22:01 |
| shtylman | I see | 22:01 |
| shtylman | human head with bubble might not be bad | 22:01 |
| shtylman | if it will be recognized when small | 22:01 |
| amichair | or maybe to conserve space, a figure of a human with a question mark on his shirt or something like that | 22:05 |
| shtylman | thats too complex for an app icon | 22:06 |
| shtylman | I think under small sizes you won't see what is going on | 22:06 |
| amichair | I'm thinking of not a full human, but a chubby stick figure, sort of like here http://www.clipartof.com/gallery/clipart/speech_balloon_3.html | 22:08 |
| amichair | or at the very least a smiley of sorts... something with a mouth, indicating 'chat'... | 22:08 |
| amichair | just a thought though :-) | 22:08 |
| shtylman | heh... I think im gonna pass this one off to the artists | 22:09 |
| amichair | hmm maybe like the yellow smiley/bubble on the following page | 22:09 |
| amichair | it's a talk bubble, it's a basic human representation, it's inviting... | 22:10 |
| amichair | well, my $0.02. good luck :-) | 22:10 |
| shtylman | true | 22:11 |
| amichair | this may sound silly, but pidgin's tray icon smiley when notifying of an incoming message actually makes me feel happy about clicking it. it's just... inviting. | 22:12 |
| shtylman | never seen it | 22:13 |
| JontheEchidna | amichair: really just bug 472518, but it's quite the corner case and the means required to work around it don't justify themselves (especially when it'll be depreceated soon) | 22:18 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 472518 in packagekit "Update notification never appears" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/472518 | 22:18 |
| JontheEchidna | er, whoops | 22:18 |
| JontheEchidna | bug 362538 | 22:18 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 362538 in update-notifier-kde "[Jaunty] Amarok in live session does not offer to download codecs" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/362538 | 22:18 |
| amichair | JontheEchidna: this won't happen in the new notifier? | 22:21 |
| JontheEchidna | I'm saying that it's one of the ones that will still happen | 22:21 |
| JontheEchidna | the rest are either resolved/irrelevant | 22:21 |
| amichair | so what will be deprecated soon? | 22:21 |
| JontheEchidna | The InstallEvent stuff | 22:22 |
| amichair | oh, ok. sorry, I still don't have a full grasp of the changes to happen :-) | 22:23 |
| amichair | good, so no known issues other than the ones we create :-) | 22:23 |
| JontheEchidna | right :) | 22:23 |
| amichair | in that case, I'm off to watch a movie :-) | 22:25 |
| nixternal | everyone have their Google Waves right? I have 15 invites all of a sudden to hand out | 22:32 |
| shtylman | I have mine :) | 22:32 |
| Riddell | just got one, confirmed there's not much use in it (yet) | 22:33 |
| shtylman | haha | 22:33 |
| shtylman | yea | 22:33 |
| nixternal | heh, I confirmed that months ago :p | 22:33 |
| nixternal | Riddell: s/\(yet\)// | 22:33 |
| Riddell | well I once said there wasn't anything interesting on youtube but I've since used it for a couple of things so I like to be cautious :) | 22:34 |
| shtylman | we could use wave for kubuntu stuff... | 22:35 |
| nixternal | hehe...I said the same about YouTube, and I do get kicks out of some of the videos | 22:35 |
| shtylman | but the problem is its not as accessible | 22:35 |
| Riddell | or we could use free and open and accountable tools for kubuntu, might be more fitting | 22:36 |
| nixternal | booyah, +1 :) | 22:37 |
| shtylman | :) | 22:38 |
| apachelogger | Quintasan1: yes, because it fails due to lack of amarok-nightly-tools ... if it was not failing there would be a Xdependency :P | 22:45 |
| apachelogger | Riddell: like we used launchpad for the alst couple of years, right? :P | 22:49 |
| apachelogger | being free and open and accountable :P | 22:49 |
| shtylman | apachelogger: I would say that launchpad is far more open than wave | 22:51 |
| apachelogger | shtylman: well, now, that is not like it used to be | 22:52 |
| shtylman | evne if we use wave... non-wavers can't see the conversation...nor can they easily join | 22:52 |
| shtylman | not just talking about the codebase | 22:52 |
| shtylman | talking about the platform and accessibility in general | 22:52 |
| shtylman | iirc launchpad was always easy to "get to" | 22:52 |
| apachelogger | ever since it went public I suppose | 22:54 |
| shtylman | gotcha | 22:55 |
| apachelogger | anyhow | 22:57 |
| apachelogger | not like I am serious | 22:57 |
| === kozz_ is now known as kozz | ||
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