[01:49] <meanburrito920_> valgrind complains that my code has a jump that depends on an uninitialized value, but I believe that is what I want (check if a value is null before operating on it). Is this the correct behavior, or should I tell valgrind to ignore it?
[01:49] <st33med> meanburrito920_, wrong roo
[01:49] <st33med> room
[01:49] <meanburrito920_> oops
[01:49] <meanburrito920_> sorry, thought I was on ##programming :)
[02:42] <Keybuk> meanburrito920_: damnit, I want to answer your question <g>
[02:43] <Keybuk> why do you think that the value is NULL to begin with?:
[02:43] <Keybuk> I suspect your error is that you're assuming the value has been initialised to NULL
[02:43] <Keybuk> when, in fact, it hasn't
[02:43] <Keybuk> so you really are comparing uninitialised data
[02:43] <Keybuk> which is clearly the exact opposite of what you want
[02:43] <Keybuk> since uninitialised data may well not be NULL <g>
[02:43] <meanburrito920_> i dont know if it will be null; it gets passed in from a function
[02:44] <Keybuk> right, valgrind follows things through
[02:44] <meanburrito920_> lets move this discussion to ##programming instead of using this channel
[13:00] <asac> hi
[13:00] <StevenK> O hai
[13:00] <ogra> moop
[13:01]  * plars is
[13:01] <davidm> hello
[13:02] <asac> GrueMaster: dyfet: JamieBennett: meeting O'clock ;)
[13:02] <cooloney> hello folks
[13:02] <dyfet> hi
[13:02] <asac> hi cooloney
[13:02] <davidm> who is running the meeting?
[13:02]  * GrueMaster Zzzzz.
[13:02]  * ogra saw GrueMaster 
[13:02] <asac> davidm: me i guess
[13:02] <ogra> NCommander didnt hand it off to anyone :(
[13:02] <asac> davidm: is using mootbot essential?
[13:02] <davidm> asac, you need to start mootbot
[13:03] <ogra> we usually use it
[13:03] <davidm> asac, yes it logs the minutes
[13:03] <asac> #startmeeting
[13:03] <MootBot> Meeting started at 07:03. The chair is asac.
[13:03] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[13:03] <ericm> hi, all
[13:03] <ericm> I assume this is a public meeting?
[13:04] <asac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091201
[13:04] <ogra> ericm, yup
[13:04] <asac> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091201
[13:04] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20091201
[13:04] <asac> [TOPIC] Specification Review
[13:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  Specification Review
[13:04] <asac> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+specs?searchtext=mobile+lucid
[13:04] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+specs?searchtext=mobile+lucid
[13:05] <asac> so first thank you everyone for the spec work done
[13:05] <ogra> mobile-lucid-arm-gcc-v7-thumb2 should be marked informational (since it was informational)
[13:05] <asac> ogra: the idea is to document the rebuild procedure etc. there
[13:05] <asac> will be finished today.
[13:05] <ogra> right, but does that make it less informational ?
[13:06] <ogra> its only documenting what we do on the go, no ?
[13:06] <asac> ogra: it has actions attached
[13:06] <ogra> well, apw attached one today
[13:06] <ogra> which he already solved
[13:06] <asac> ogra: no. i mean: the rebuild archive notes have actions
[13:06] <asac> we should track imo
[13:06] <ogra> ok
[13:07] <asac> ok
[13:07] <ogra> i thought that was covered by the lib testing one
[13:07] <asac> so one thing we need to ensure is that the milestone target is about right by end of today
[13:07] <ogra> if people arent aware yet davem created https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Thumb2 for the transition
[13:07] <asac> there are quite a few with alpha-1 milestone ... which afaict sounds too eager
[13:08] <asac> ogra: right. that will be referenced from the gcc spec
[13:08] <ogra> currently it doesntz look like we can even make A1
[13:08] <ogra> but i'll elaborate later (in the ARM topic)
[13:08] <asac> right
[13:08] <asac> JamieBennett: mobile-lucid-une-2d-launcher ... you think its realistic to have something at alpha-1?
[13:09]  * asac answers questions and moves it to alpha-2
[13:10] <asac> ogra: mobile-lucid-imx51-debian-cd-to-uboot ... is imx51 uboot done already?
[13:10] <ogra> nope, only proof of concept
[13:10] <ogra> but based on that i should be able to implement it until A2
[13:10] <asac> ogra: implemente == includes the cleanup/unification?
[13:10] <ogra> the image issues we have are more serious, i'm concentrating my dev/debug work on that atm
[13:11] <asac> k
[13:11] <ogra> no, unificatrion is NCommanders work, the uboot stuff for imx51 is the stuff thats not unifyable
[13:11] <asac> ok but alpha-2 seems reasonable -> targetted for that milestone
[13:11] <asac> right. just wanted to understand what work will be done by alpha-2 then
[13:11] <ogra> yeah
[13:12] <asac> mobile-lucid-arm-alternate-images -> targetted for alpha-1 ...
[13:12] <ogra> i guess they buiold, didnt look depply yet
[13:12] <asac> given that ncommander is on vacation till shortly before alpha-1, i would think thats not happening in time
[13:12] <ogra> hmm, no, they dont
[13:13] <ogra> there were no needed changes
[13:13] <persia> Retargeting alternates for alpha-2 seems right.  There might be some for alpha-1, but they wouldn't be well tested.
[13:13] <ogra> we used to build them before
[13:13] <persia> We built them, but I don't think we tested the installs much.
[13:13] <ogra> so the general builds should just happen
[13:13] <asac> ok doing.
[13:13] <ogra> right
[13:13] <ogra> well, i tested all imx51 once during karmic
[13:14] <asac> i think the milestone we communicate in the spec should be the "beta available" delivery
[13:14] <ogra> but not for each milestone
[13:14] <asac> so if we have QA and bugfixing actions they can be done after the mentioned milestone
[13:14] <ogra> testing alt. images simply takes to long
[13:14] <persia> That's good to hear.  I thought they were even less tested than that.
[13:14] <asac> so "Smoke-test ARM alternate images built by the build system [2 days]: TODO"
[13:14] <ogra> they all had bugs :)
[13:14] <asac> needs more days?
[13:15] <ogra> smoke test should be doable in 2 days
[13:15] <persia> 2 days is enough to smoke-test 2 flavors on 2 boards, I'd say.
[13:15] <ogra> proper testing would need more
[13:15] <persia> Yeah.
[13:15] <asac> ok i think smoke test is what is covered by the spec
[13:15] <asac> the rest should go into our QA processes
[13:15] <ogra> (alt install test on the babbage takes at least 3h per installation ... vs 1h for live)
[13:15] <asac> ok next one: mobile-lucid-bringup-testing
[13:16] <plars> asac: I'll have it partially done at A1, but would like to target for a2 completion
[13:16] <asac> plars: i think this is mostly about documenting/specification of the testing and some checkbox support
[13:16] <asac> plars: ok. so documentation/specification by A1, implementation/automization by A2?
[13:16] <plars> asac: we need some additional tests, and a checkbox plugin
[13:16] <plars> and a few other bits
[13:16] <plars> right
[13:17] <asac> ok
[13:17] <asac> lets target it officially for alpha-2 then
[13:17] <asac> plars: if you have work items yo know that will be finished for alpha-1 you can use this syntax:
[13:18] <asac> Work items (MILESTONE):
[13:18] <asac> ...
[13:18] <plars> ok
[13:18] <asac> MILESTONE=alpha-1 etc.
[13:18] <asac> same for everyone ... if you want to split the work in chunks by milestones, you can use that syntax (pitti is working on implementating this for the burndownchart thing)
[13:19] <asac> next: mobile-lucid-arm-lightweightbrowser
[13:19] <asac> i think we should target both: optimized firefox as well as a chromium browser in archive for alpha-2
[13:19] <dyfet> Okay....and a2?
[13:20] <asac> there will be some issues that might take till beta, like how to best integrate with mailto/doc content on the desktop
[13:20] <asac> but those should be tracked in other specs imo
[13:20] <dyfet> The one I noted was with gconf keys for default browser, but yes, there is likely other issues
[13:21] <asac> dyfet: there is quite a few things to evaluate/implement. lets talk about that after meeting
[13:22] <dyfet> agreed
[13:22] <asac> next: per-soc-powermanagement -> ogra, i assume we target that for alpha-2 too?
[13:22] <ogra> yeah, at least
[13:22] <ogra> we need to wait for the new kernels anyway
[13:22] <asac> ogra: you are the assignee i guess?
[13:22] <ogra> yep
[13:22] <ogra> at least i have most of the action items
[13:23] <asac> ogra: can you add the "wait for new kernel" action item?
[13:23] <ogra> though its spread across people and teams
[13:23] <ogra> yup
[13:23] <ogra> it just struck me today that it doesnt makes sense to fiddle with the old kernels
[13:23] <asac> ogra: ok. so alpha-3 is more realisitic?
[13:23] <ogra> huh, i cant edit
[13:23] <ogra> oh, somhow LP logged me out
[13:24] <asac> hehe
[13:24] <ogra> yeah, i guess
[13:24] <ogra> ericm, cooloney, any ETA for new kernels ?
[13:24] <ogra> (we currently have the karmic ones only)
[13:24] <davidm> ogra, I think we have the kernel for Freescale it's not planned to change
[13:24] <ericm> ogra, not atm
[13:24] <cooloney> ogra: as we just talked in #kernel
[13:24] <ogra> davidm, i was told differently by the kernel team today
[13:24] <cooloney> since lucid imx51 kernel will still be .31
[13:24] <cooloney> it will not be compiled into thumb2,
[13:25] <cooloney> just let you guys know that.
[13:25] <ogra> davidm, the lucid kernel will use the complete new FSL drop instead of our forward ported patches
[13:25] <ogra> davidm, which definately adds delay
[13:25] <davidm> ogra, not until such time as Freescale drops one
[13:25] <asac> ok lets add a agenda item about "kernel status" and continue with specs for now?
[13:25] <cooloney> ogra: yeah, seperate tree
[13:25] <ogra> davidm, which is due this week
[13:25] <ogra> yes
[13:26] <asac> next is mobile-lucid-arm-device-tree-support
[13:26] <asac> JamieBennett: i assume that is earliest at alpha-3?
[13:27] <ericm> asac, I think jk has done some prototyping work on this
[13:27] <asac> JamieBennett: do you want a standalone agenda item to report about the progress monitoring?
[13:27] <asac> "Weekly monitoring of Grants git tree and report progress (until delivery DATE): TODO"
[13:28] <ericm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ARMDeviceTrees
[13:28] <asac> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ARMDeviceTrees
[13:28] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ARMDeviceTrees
[13:28] <asac> ok tentatively targetted for alpha-3 now
[13:29] <asac> next: mobile-lucid-arm-suspend-resume-testplan
[13:29] <asac> i think we need to finish drafting this. i added summary/rational/design to the wiki page already
[13:29] <asac> plars: want to fill in the Implementation details maybe?
[13:30] <plars> asac: during the discussion, the implementation details were supposed to be filled in by those who came up with the tests
[13:30] <asac> its mostly filling in a table where we can track progress on each testcase i think
[13:30] <asac> right. imo we should fill in the points now... then as one workitem, assign individual testcases to martinbogo etc.
[13:31] <asac> to fill in details, and implement in checkbox if possible
[13:31] <plars> ok
[13:31] <asac> ok i set you as a drafter for now. we can talk about this after the meeting
[13:31] <plars> sounds good
[13:32] <asac> lets also decide on the target milestone then.
[13:32] <asac> next one: mobile-lucid-arm-une
[13:32] <asac> StevenK: ok to merge this into the application-choices?
[13:33] <dyfet> I took stevenk's suggestion to do so....so I hope it is :)
[13:33] <dyfet> mobile-lucid-arm-application-choices
[13:33]  * asac tries to do that now
[13:34] <asac> ok that is a bit harder ... will do after meeting
[13:34] <asac> next is mobile-lucid-arm-debian-cd-cleanup
[13:35] <asac> i assume that is blocked by the uboot for freescale
[13:35] <asac> somewhat
[13:35] <ogra> yep
[13:35] <asac> so cannot happen by alpha-2
[13:35] <asac> -> alpha-3
[13:35] <ogra> it can
[13:35] <ogra> it cant happen before
[13:35] <asac> ok targetted for alpha-3
[13:36] <ogra> the proof of concept i have is pretty fast to implement once i cleaned up the code both should be possible to happen hand in hand for the same milestone
[13:36] <asac> ogra: right. alpha-3 doesnt mean that everything has to happen _after_ alpha-2 ;) ... we can do as much as possible before
[13:36] <ogra> (depending on michael indeed, my side shouldnt block here though)
[13:36] <asac> ok
[13:37] <asac> next is mobile-lucid-arm-ext-images
[13:37] <asac> first ... is that really "Medium" priority?
[13:37] <asac> rather than low?
[13:37]  * ogra guesse that waits until after NCommanders holidays 
[13:37] <asac> what win do we get from that?
[13:37] <ogra> nothing really
[13:37] <ogra> complication of the build process mainly :)
[13:38] <asac> ok ... so priority Low i guess. feels like a beautification excersize to me
[13:38] <ogra> and hardlink support in the images (which we dont need)
[13:38] <ogra> i wouldnt even call it beautification :)
[13:38] <asac> so how much ease would we gain from having ext2?
[13:38] <asac> hmm
[13:38] <ogra> it was triggered by the fact that the vfat images had a bug
[13:38] <ogra> and cant use symlinks
[13:39] <asac> right. but that is fixed afaict (the bug)
[13:39] <ogra> both issues are solved
[13:39] <asac> but would symlinks be something we want?
[13:39] <ogra> switching the image build scripts to make ext2 iomages will definately add a lot complexity
[13:39] <ogra> we dont need symlinks
[13:39] <asac> ok lets put it to Low
[13:39] <asac> and maybe consider to not implement this
[13:40] <ogra> it only has a single action item anyway, no ?
[13:40]  * ogra remembers persia's going over the TODOs and busting one by one in the session
[13:40] <davidm> I'm in favor of dropping if we gain nothing
[13:40] <ogra> with proper and valid arguments :)
[13:41] <asac> davidm: right. but lets not just kill it while ncommander is gone. i noted it in the whiteboard to consider dropping it
[13:41] <ogra> i would leave the banchmark thing in
[13:41] <ogra> it will at least gain us some info we might be able to use later
[13:41] <asac> next is mobile-lucid-efficient-install-testing
[13:42] <ogra> all other TODOs depend on that one
[13:42] <asac> plars: what milestone would you like to target this for?
[13:42] <plars> when do we expect to have images building?
[13:42] <asac> plars: feels like its something that is partly on QA team side
[13:42] <plars> it is
[13:42] <asac> plars: asap
[13:42] <plars> they need to create virtual milestones to track this
[13:42] <asac> plars: ok. have you discussed this in their meeting?
[13:42] <plars> need someone with access to the iso tracker admin functions to do that
[13:43] <asac> like: getting feedback if they are supportive etc.
[13:43] <plars> asac: no, but discussed with ara at UDS, I didn't get the impression that it would be that big of a deal
[13:43] <asac> ok. lets target it for alpha-2 then too for now... but with option to push the full implementation
[13:43] <plars> I don't think there's a huge rush with it, due to the nature of the testing being done
[13:44] <plars> that works for me
[13:44] <asac> right. i see this more as a gradually process. first get it setup etc. in the end make it become standard procedure for the QA team
[13:44] <asac> etc.
[13:44] <plars> the focus is on mobile images for the moment
[13:44] <plars> but they may be interested in picking it up for others as well
[13:45] <plars> in reality, doing it *anywhere* has wide reaching benefits, since often times the install bugs are pervasive across all arches
[13:45] <asac> ok. so for mobile images we can probably make this happen as soon as we get the iso tracker suppor then
[13:45] <asac> *nod*
[13:46] <JamieBennett> damn, sorry, had to go down the school to pick up a kids, accident but she's OK though.
[13:46]  * JamieBennett reads backchat
[13:46] <ogra> we have iso tracker support ...
[13:46] <ogra> it just has a few bugs, but we use the tracker since karmic
[13:46] <asac> JamieBennett: we almost didnt notice ;) ... read backlog what we did to your specs ;)
[13:46] <asac> next is mobile-lucid-une-casper-speedup
[13:46] <ogra> for which you just showed up in time :)
[13:46] <JamieBennett> :D
[13:46] <asac> JamieBennett: according to work items most is planned to be done by alpha-2 (with a good bunch for alpha-1)
[13:47] <asac> is that still accurate?
[13:47] <asac> the alpha-1 work itesm at least feel a bit at risk
[13:47] <asac> (to me)
[13:47] <JamieBennett> Yep, going to start on that when I finish packaging up netbook-launcher-efl today-ish
[13:47] <ogra> and it assumes we make A1
[13:47] <ogra> wrt images
[13:47] <JamieBennett> ogra: indeed
[13:48] <JamieBennett> I can profile karmic though with timestamps in the casper.log file
[13:48] <ogra> thats a good start
[13:48] <asac> ok . targetted the investigation part for alpha-2 ... commented that the actual speedup fixes obviously can take till final ;)
[13:48] <JamieBennett> give us a good idea of where to start looking
[13:48] <ogra> right, lucid wont change so much here so the karmic numbers should be helpful enough
[13:48] <asac> next mobile-lucid-arm-application-choices: i think that most stuff is well targetted for alpha-2 as well
[13:49] <ogra> modulo thumb2 improvements
[13:49] <asac> i will fork out two more specs: a -webservices-mail-integration ... and -webservers-gdoc-integration
[13:49] <asac> as those are bigger working blocks
[13:49] <dyfet> there was a couple of questions deferred at UDS related to this...
[13:50] <asac> right
[13:50] <asac> music player
[13:50] <asac> mail
[13:50] <asac> openoffice
[13:50] <asac> those three need work/exploration during the cycle
[13:50] <asac> so lets move those out to separate specs imo.
[13:50] <dyfet> Okay
[13:51] <asac> dyfet: can you do a quick write up of the music player spec? e.g. what was discussed, what requirements found etc.?
[13:51] <dyfet> You mean here or after?
[13:51] <asac> anyway. back on topic. i think for the rest its safe to have it for alpha-2
[13:51] <asac> dyfet: after ... but we should get most done by today ;)
[13:52] <dyfet> I will attach it to the current wiki spec page as a separate notes item...
[13:52] <asac> dyfet: lets sync on this after meeting
[13:52] <asac> i noted in whiteboard that we lok into splitting specs up
[13:52] <dyfet> ok
[13:52] <asac> but targetted the generic choices one for alpha-2
[13:53] <asac> ogra: mobile-lucid-arm-rootstock-gui ...
[13:53] <ogra> target for FF
[13:53] <ogra> same for the multiarch one
[13:53] <asac> thats for alpha-3 (just so we dont squeeze everything i for alpha-2)
[13:53] <asac> agree
[13:53] <asac> unfortunately we have no FF milestone ... so alpha-3 is the best we can have there
[13:53] <ogra> its not on the CD and will be developed in archive
[13:53] <asac> right
[13:53] <ogra> well, make it A3
[13:54] <asac> done
[13:54] <JamieBennett> asac: 2D launcher is waiting on MIR's being promoted and me packaging up netbook-launcher-efl and uploading to REVU (do that today). After that we need add it to the ARM seed and figure out how we are going to determine if 3D or 2D is needed.
[13:54] <ogra> thanks :)
[13:54] <asac> mobile-lucid-arm-softboot-loader -> i wondered whether this is really Medium priority
[13:54] <asac> for me it feels unlikely that its going to get fixed in lucid timeframe
[13:54] <ogra> it depends on the kernels
[13:54] <asac> so while we should work hard to make it happen after lucid+1
[13:55] <asac> we probably wont get to do it this cycle
[13:55] <ogra> it will be implemented quickly once we have working kexec support
[13:55] <ogra> we have several proof of concept implementations ... they are all blocked on kexec
[13:55] <asac> ogra: right. i think we need at least work items for kexec then.
[13:55] <asac> current spec just says "blocked"
[13:56] <asac> not what can or will be done to unblock that
[13:56] <asac> [ACTION]: NCommander to add work items on how to unblock softbootloader to spec
[13:56] <MootBot> ACTION received: : NCommander to add work items on how to unblock softbootloader to spec
[13:56] <ogra> we cant do much but wait for kernel team
[13:56] <asac> ogra: well. we can at least file bugs, bug kernel team, escalate etc.
[13:56] <ogra> or hope for upstreams (vendors) to have it fixed in their kernels
[13:57] <asac> i am not sure if that has happened
[13:57] <ogra> i think there are bugs since jaunty
[13:57] <ericm> ogra, just file a bug so we can follow
[13:57] <asac> ok targetting for alpha-3 so it comes back to our plate
[13:57] <ogra> right
[13:57] <ogra> in any case it needs vendor support anyway ...
[13:57] <asac> mobile-lucid-lpia-future -> isnt that informational?
[13:57] <ogra> and that sounds rather like lucid+1
[13:58] <asac> ogra: thats what i thought. for me it feels really unlikely
[13:58] <asac> that we will get that implemented for lucid
[13:58] <ogra> well, it would be good to have our side ready asap
[13:59] <asac> right. thats why we have an action now to ensure that we work on unblocking it at least
[13:59] <asac> ok14:57 < asac> mobile-lucid-lpia-future -> isnt that informational?
[13:59] <ogra> vendor support here means the vendors need to ship the HW with the softbootloader bits
[13:59] <asac> StevenK: ^^
[13:59] <ogra> and obviously the HW we'll work with in lucid will be already shipping
[13:59] <asac> ok marked lpia spec as informational for now
[14:00] <asac> mobile-lucid-lxde-goals -> alpha-3 ... dyfet?
[14:00] <StevenK> asac: Hm. Yes, you're right
[14:00] <ogra> isnt it implemented too ?
[14:00] <dyfet> It is really an informational spec
[14:00] <dyfet> There are 3 separate community maintained specs
[14:00] <asac> StevenK: ok. done now. feel free to add more content about what was decided when you have time ;)
[14:00] <asac> dyfet: ok.
[14:01] <asac> ok i think we have to hurry abit ;)
[14:01] <StevenK> asac: Yeah, I think that one can wait
[14:01] <asac> specs done for this meeting
[14:01] <asac> [TOPIC] ARM Image Status
[14:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status
[14:02] <asac> ogra: lucid images broken atm?
[14:03] <StevenK> asac: They are
[14:03] <asac> any update?
[14:03] <StevenK> asac: imx51 fails due to SIGILL, and dove due to what looks to be brokenness
[14:04] <ogra_> hmpf ...
[14:04] <ogra_> right
[14:04] <ogra_> bad thing is is that the seeds are broken too
[14:04] <ogra_> so debugging is currently impossible
[14:04] <GrueMaster> Well, that certainly explains why dove is broken.  :P
[14:04] <asac> how are they broken?
[14:04] <ogra_> and i cant reporduce it locally at all
[14:04] <ogra_> asac, MIRs missing ... desktop team is working on it
[14:05] <ogra_> but it will take its time, which delays us
[14:05] <asac> hmm
[14:05] <asac> is there any way for us to workaround broken seeds to get initial images?
[14:05] <ogra_> no
[14:05] <ogra_> the seed will be fixed today by the looks of it
[14:06] <ogra_> i know pitti and cjwatson discussed promotion of the missing stuff already
[14:06] <ogra_> as soon as thats ok we can go on debugging the SIGILL
[14:06] <ogra_> i'm in contact with lamont on that since today
[14:06] <dmart> ogra_: do you know where the SIGILL was?
[14:07] <ogra_> the prob here is that the buildd runs UNR jaunty
[14:07] <StevenK> mksquashfs
[14:07] <ogra_> what StevenK says
[14:07] <ogra_> though it might be an inconsistency between kernel and userspace
[14:07] <dmart> OK
[14:07] <asac> ok safe to assume that desktop team will fix the seeds or do we need an action to ensure things get fixed etc?
[14:07] <ogra_> as i said, jaunty pegatron UNR kernel
[14:07] <ogra_> no, we dont need any action for that
[14:08] <asac> ok.
[14:08] <asac> anything else on arm image status?
[14:08] <asac> [TOPIC] ARM Kernel status
[14:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Kernel status
[14:08] <ogra_> not yet
[14:08] <asac> cooloney: ericm: your turn :)
[14:08] <ogra_> A1 will still be redboot based for imx51 obviously :)
[14:09] <cooloney> asac: thanks, for lucid imx51 kernel
[14:09] <cooloney> i am waiting for the fsl drop
[14:09] <ericm> asac, same here for dove
[14:09] <asac> ok. any timeline for that?
[14:09] <cooloney> as soon as i get it, i will setup a seperate tree for that
[14:09] <cooloney> i think i will get fsl drop on Dec 4th
[14:10] <asac> ericm: when will mrvl drop the kernel?
[14:11] <ericm> asac, not yet known
[14:11] <asac> ok. but we can continue with what had for karmic, right?
[14:11] <ericm> asac, right
[14:11] <asac> what is the story about not getting thumb kernel ?
[14:11] <davidm> We need to ask Marvell on the next call when we can expect a drop
[14:12] <ericm> davidm, better if I can be invited
[14:12] <ericm> asac, thumb2 needs .32
[14:12] <ericm> asac, which means we need to backport to .31 as vendor provides only .32
[14:12] <ericm> .31 sorry
[14:12] <cooloney> davidm: could you please forward the meeting minutes of the meeting with fsl
[14:13] <asac> ericm: are you on marvell call?
[14:13] <ericm> asac, not yet
[14:13] <cooloney> davidm: sorry i can't join the meeting, since it's 3am-4am here
[14:13] <ogra_> ericm, as i understood MVL will be on .32
[14:13] <ogra_> ericm, only FSL will stay on .31
[14:13] <dmart> Thumb-2 kernel is nice to have, but if we don't get it for imx51 it's not the end of the world.
[14:13] <davidm> cooloney, understood
[14:13] <cooloney> ogra_: yeah, mvl will be .32
[14:13] <asac> [ACTION] davidm and asac to clarify marvell kernel drop date
[14:13] <MootBot> ACTION received:  davidm and asac to clarify marvell kernel drop date
[14:14] <cooloney> davidm: thanks a lot, so for the fsl patch drop, will they send out to me directly or you will forward them to me?
[14:14] <ericm> ogra_, cooloney, ok so will wait for their next drop
[14:14] <asac> ericm: ok. thanks for explaining thumb2
[14:15] <ericm> asac, well - maybe I can check thumb2 on dove if mvl is delivering .32
[14:15] <cooloney> asac: yeah, so mvl kernel will be thumb2, fsl kernel will be .31 not for thumb2 until fsl upgrades kernel to .32
[14:15] <asac> right. thanks for summary
[14:15] <asac> anything else on kernel status (we are overtime)
[14:15] <ericm> nothing from my side
[14:16] <ogra_> SATA patch  ?
[14:16] <cooloney> me either
[14:16] <ogra_> on imx51
[14:16] <asac> given that we are well overtime (due to extensive spec review) ... i would suggest to skip the sponsoring review this week
[14:16] <asac> any objection?
[14:16] <ogra_> nope
[14:16] <asac> [TOPIC] Any Other Business
[14:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
[14:16] <cooloney> ogra_:  for that patch, i just posted to kernel mail list for sru
[14:16] <ogra_> there was some discussion about the SATA fix for imx51
[14:16] <davidm> cooloney, I'll give them your contact info.
[14:17] <ogra_> right, i care more about lucid than karmic atm
[14:17] <GrueMaster> mobile-lucid-arm-lib-tests may need to be revisited.  Will know more next meeting.
[14:17] <asac> GrueMaster: revisited in what way?
[14:17] <ogra_> we should have the SATA patch in lucid asap so it gets testing
[14:17] <cooloney> ogra_: but we think the change will effect other usb storage device connected to ehci port
[14:17] <GrueMaster> I'll explain off line.
[14:17] <asac> ok
[14:17] <ogra_> davidm, there is a spec action item for you on one of my specs btw :)
[14:17] <cooloney> davidm: thanks
[14:17]  * GrueMaster is also interested in sata fix for imx51.
[14:18] <ogra_> [davidm] ship SSD media for tesing to team members (2 days): TODO
[14:18] <ogra_> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-lucid-arm-per-soc-powermanagement
[14:18] <GrueMaster> It should be an SRU to karmic as well.
[14:18] <asac> powermanagement that is
[14:18] <davidm> ogra_, will take more then 2 days
[14:18] <ogra_> cooloney, right, but as soon as you have a proper fix it should get added to lucid first
[14:18] <ericm> davidm, possible for me to join the marvell call?
[14:18] <cooloney> ogra_: GrueMaster, yeah i posted the sata fix patch as karmic SRU already
[14:18] <ogra_> davidm, minus shipment :)
[14:19] <davidm> ericm, sure
[14:19] <ogra_> cooloney, it should enter lucid first
[14:19] <ogra_> and get testing there
[14:19] <cooloney> ogra_: ok, got you
[14:19] <asac> [ACTION] davidm to invite ericm to marvell call
[14:19] <MootBot> ACTION received:  davidm to invite ericm to marvell call
[14:19] <davidm> will take more then two days to order have to figure out what SSD and get a PO cut
[14:19] <ogra_> if its good in lucid make it an SRU
[14:19] <asac> ;)
[14:20] <cooloney> ogra_: ok, no problem
[14:20] <davidm> ericm, you have been invited
[14:20] <ogra_> given that we want to focus on SDD that SATA patch is essential for some of the spec work
[14:20] <ogra_> *SSD
[14:20] <asac> davidm: how much time should we book for that? a week?
[14:20] <ericm> davidm, thanks
[14:20] <cooloney> ogra_: as soon as i got the drop and setup the kernel tree
[14:20] <davidm> asac, at least
[14:20] <davidm> likely two
[14:20] <asac> ok thanks ... updating whiteboard
[14:21] <asac> ok since we are quite over time ... lets do other stuff offline
[14:21] <ogra_> ++
[14:21] <asac> ok thanks all!
[14:22] <asac> #endmeeting
[14:22] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:21.
[14:22] <ogra_> thanks for running the meeting :)
[14:22] <asac> hehe
[14:22] <asac> now i need to understand how to get anything out of mootbot ;)
[14:22] <asac> MootBot: help
[14:22] <ogra_> you should have a PM
[14:22] <asac> oh ... indeed :-P
[14:22] <ogra_> :)
[14:23] <davidm> asac, the minutes will be posted you should have a window that tells you where
[14:23] <asac> yeah. i got a link ... but todays minutes are not there yet
[14:23] <asac> probably takes a bit
[14:23] <asac> thanks
[14:23]  * ericm has to get some sleep as it's late here
[14:24] <davidm> asac, yes takes some time, have a look to see if last weeks meeting mintues are up yet
[14:25] <asac> ok i think there it is
[15:00] <cjwatson> mdz,kees: do you remember who's chairing this week?
[15:02] <mdz> cjwatson: I missed the previous meeting, so I don't know
[15:03] <cjwatson> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2009-November/000642.html says Kees
[15:03] <ScottK> I'd like to ask that https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy be early in the meeting as I have another committment I need to get to.
[15:03] <cjwatson> the agenda does not seem to have been updated
[15:03] <ScottK> No, that's different than the one for last meeting.
[15:04] <cjwatson> I made a minor edit just now
[15:04] <ScottK> I think it's just that there are a lot of carryover topics
[15:04] <cjwatson> and there were some additions - but lots of those carryovers were dealt with
[15:04] <ScottK> Oh
[15:04] <mdz> I updated the agenda a few days ago
[15:05] <mdz> to add the maintainer script item
[15:05] <mdz> do we have a quorum? Keybuk doesn't seem to be online, pitti is idle
[15:05] <cjwatson> I've reorganised it slightly to remove dead items and move kubuntu to the top
[15:06] <cjwatson> kees and sabdfl both idle apparently - no quorum if it's just you and me
[15:07] <tseliot> are you going to process recommendations from the Motu council in this meeting?
[15:07] <sabdfl> hello all
[15:07] <mdz> tseliot: if it's for upload rights, that's done by the DMB now
[15:07] <cjwatson> tseliot: that will be for the DMB next week, I believe
[15:08] <cjwatson> sabdfl: hi, just you, me, and mdz so far
[15:08] <tseliot> ah, ok, thanks
[15:09] <mdz> cjwatson: that's quorum
[15:09] <mdz> might as well start
[15:09] <mdz> #startmeeting
[15:09] <MootBot> Meeting started at 09:09. The chair is mdz.
[15:09] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[15:10] <mdz> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda?action=show
[15:10] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda?action=show
[15:10] <mdz> cjwatson: there were a bunch of actions re: archive reorg
[15:10] <mdz>    * [ACTION]: Martin to talk to Jonathan about making DMB an admin of kubuntu-dev (done now), and to announce new members to devel-permissions@
[15:10] <mdz> and kubuntu team list
[15:10] <mdz>    * [ACTION] Martin to talk to Mario about adding DMB as admin of ~mythbuntu-dev and add wiki page about new member procedure
[15:10] <mdz>    * [ACTION] Colin to document edit_acl invocation for setting team upload delegation
[15:10] <mdz>    * [ACTION] Colin to implement delegations for these three teams after above fixes
[15:11] <mdz> cjwatson: any updates on those?
[15:11] <cjwatson> the team change to kubuntu-dev was done, but not mythbuntu-dev
[15:11] <cjwatson> we're still blocked on an RT ticket to add devel-permissions - I'll go nag IS about that
[15:11] <mdz> the third was ubuntu-desktop, which is  done, right?
[15:11] <cjwatson> delegations are implemented but not yet the documentation
[15:12] <mdz> what's the RT#?
[15:12]  * bdale is here, fwiw
[15:13] <cjwatson> mdz: 36139
[15:13] <mdz> bdale: hey
[15:13] <cjwatson> (I've poked #is)
[15:13] <mdz> cjwatson: thanks
[15:13] <mdz>   * [ACTION] Scott to redraft Units policy to address Scott's and Matt's concerns and clean up language
[15:13] <mdz> the draft is
[15:13] <mdz> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UnitsPolicy
[15:13] <cjwatson> I haven't seen that redraft
[15:13] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UnitsPolicy
[15:13] <mdz> and hasn't been touched since 2009-09-27
[15:13] <mdz> so I guess that action is still outstanding
[15:14] <mdz>   * [ACTION] Colin to clarify trademark/license distinction on licensing policy
[15:14] <cjwatson> still outstanding, sorry
[15:14] <mdz> [ACTION] Martin to announce DMB meeting next week
[15:14] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Martin to announce DMB meeting next week
[15:14] <mdz> he did that
[15:14] <cjwatson> done and furthermore moot now :)
[15:14] <mdz> ok, on to the main agenda
[15:14] <mdz> [topic] Archive reorganisation (ColinWatson)
[15:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  Archive reorganisation (ColinWatson)
[15:15] <cjwatson> there's one more team that would like to get on the path to delegation, but regrettably I have forgotten which
[15:15] <cjwatson> I think it was Xubuntu
[15:15] <cjwatson> we gave Cody the necessary information to get started
[15:15] <cjwatson> other than that I have no updates
[15:15] <sabdfl> is there a canonical list of the teams / packagesets anywhere?
[15:15] <mdz> is there a wiki page on how to get set up?
[15:15] <cjwatson> sabdfl: in LP, yes
[15:16] <cjwatson> launchpad.packagesets
[15:16] <cjwatson> mdz: examples but nothing guidebook-like; I can take an action (argh ...) to write something up
[15:16] <sabdfl> cvd!
[15:16] <sabdfl> oww
[15:17] <mdz> ...
[15:17] <cjwatson> qwp!
[15:17] <sabdfl> that's what she said
[15:17] <pitti> o/
[15:17] <pitti> sorry
[15:17] <mdz> cjwatson: I don't think it's essential, but it would be good to be building up a doc as we go so that other teams can follow
[15:17] <mdz> anyway, moving on
[15:17] <cjwatson> pitti: hi. did you talk to Mario about adding DMB as admin of ~mythbuntu-dev and adding a wiki page?
[15:18] <mdz> (or not, I'll wait)
[15:18] <cjwatson> mdz: might as well ACTION me even if it doesn't happen right noow
[15:18] <cjwatson> -o
[15:18] <pitti> I sent a mail, but didn't see a response yet
[15:18] <sabdfl> can we not just do that ourselves?
[15:18] <cjwatson> sabdfl: you might be able to, we can't :)
[15:18] <sabdfl> or, by policy, should we wait for him to do it?
[15:18] <pitti> I'll poke him again then
[15:18] <sabdfl> i can, just not sure it's protocol to use lp.Admin
[15:18] <mdz> [action] cjwatson to create a wiki reference for development teams to participate in the reorg
[15:18] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to create a wiki reference for development teams to participate in the reorg
[15:18] <cjwatson> LP admins generally seem to prefer not to
[15:19] <cjwatson> (from my observation anyway; it does seem to be skating along the edge)
[15:19] <sabdfl> in this case, i've technically got project authority too
[15:19] <mdz> I would prefer that a team admin do it
[15:19] <sabdfl> agreed
[15:19] <pitti> also, creating a policy wiki page is the main bit here, which the mythbuntu devs should decide themselves?
[15:19] <cjwatson> we need superm1 to document the process for mythbuntu anyway
[15:19] <mdz> sabdfl: for mythbuntu?
[15:19] <sabdfl> for *buntu
[15:20] <mdz> ...
[15:20] <mdz> cjwatson: anything else on archive reorg, or can we move on? lots to cover
[15:20] <cjwatson> move on
[15:20] <mdz> [topic] Units Policy
[15:20] <MootBot> New Topic:  Units Policy
[15:20] <mdz> we covered this above; it is waiting for Scott to redraft
[15:20] <mdz> though the agenda says "finish voting"?
[15:21] <cjwatson> can we do the Kubuntu stuff as ScottK requested? he has a time constraint
[15:21] <cjwatson> the agenda no longer says that, I edited it
[15:21] <mdz> ok
[15:21] <cjwatson> reload and you'll get updated ordering too :)
[15:21] <mdz> [topic] https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy
[15:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy
[15:21] <mdz> [link] https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy
[15:21] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/UpdatesPolicy
[15:22] <cjwatson> I've read this just now, and in general it's a request to bring our KDE practices more into line with how we handle GNOME post-release
[15:22] <mdz> ScottK: which packages are covered by this proposal?
[15:22] <pitti> (note: we don't regularly update the entire gnome stack to new versions, just selected packages)
[15:22] <ScottK> mdz: It's the KDE core packages.
[15:23] <ScottK> The ones that come in a KDE 4.x.y release.
[15:23] <cjwatson> ScottK: we probably ought to have a standard practice for what to do when (IME "when", not "if") regressions are detected after packages are moved to -updates
[15:23] <mdz> ScottK: it would be handy to have a list, since my next question is whether or not there are reverse deps outside of KDE itself
[15:23] <cjwatson> there certainly will be reverse-deps
[15:23] <cjwatson> any KDE application will depend on the core bits
[15:23] <ScottK> mdz: The only one I know of that affects Ubuntu is kdebindings
[15:24] <ScottK> It has ubuquity as a reverse depends
[15:24] <cjwatson> mdz: do you mean "outside KDE" or "outside Kubuntu"?
[15:24] <mdz> I agree with cjwatson that a contingency plan would be wise
[15:24] <ScottK> (That's the only KDE core package that is in both the Ubuntu Desktop and Kubuntu package sets)
[15:24] <bdale> cjwatson: I assume he means outside of the set of packages they're already proposing to update
[15:24] <mdz> cjwatson: I meant outside of the set of packages in question
[15:25] <mdz> which, since it's only the core bits and not applications, there are definitely plenty
[15:25] <czajkowski> .c
[15:25] <mdz> bdale: bingo
[15:25] <cjwatson> so in that case the set of packages is certainly large, just as updating e.g. gnome-vfs has a bunch of reverse-deps
[15:25] <ScottK> This is true.
[15:25] <ScottK> The broadest impact is from kde4libs.
[15:26] <ScottK> Upstream promises binary compatibility for that.
[15:26] <cjwatson> I suppose the real question though is whether KDE nowadays meets the same kind of standards that we apply to GNOME post-release updates
[15:26] <sabdfl> that's the piece that's missing for me
[15:26] <sabdfl> some statement from KDE upstream about the approach they are taking to point releases
[15:27] <mdz> ScottK: in the rationale section, when considering the arguments against doing updates, the most critical argument in my opinion is that there is an unknown risk of regression
[15:27] <pitti> we actually only had an exception for LTSes for gnome point releases
[15:27] <mdz> I would like to see that addressed in the proposal
[15:27] <sabdfl> if we can get a commitment from KDE that their stable branch maintenance policy is broadly in line with our SRU policy, then point releases -> updates makes sense
[15:27] <ScottK> mdz: OK.
[15:27] <pitti> and we did have regressions in KDE point releases in the past, too
[15:27] <bdale> mdz: they talk a lot about testing for regressions, but it's not clear how broad that testing could/would be, right?
[15:27] <mdz> ScottK: anything you're doing to mitigate that risk is relevant information for considering this change
[15:27] <pitti> (which is why I'm always a bit scared of such blanket policies)
[15:28] <ScottK> Yes, and we have still seen a few.
[15:28] <ScottK> This is why we proposed the ppa -> proposed -> updates path to give time for testing.
[15:28] <sabdfl> that's reasonable, yes
[15:28] <sabdfl> it wouls just be helpful if there was a real policy upstream about commits to the stable branches
[15:28] <mdz> bdale: yes, I think this is to some extent addressed elsewhere in the doc, but it seems like an omission in the rationale
[15:28] <cjwatson> does somebody have a link to GNOME's documented stable update handling?
[15:28] <mdz> if the rationale is that there is no reason NOT to do it, then it needs to cover more ground
[15:28] <ScottK> sabdfl: I can ask them for a clear statement of policy.
[15:29] <sabdfl> we should look to make a mutual commitment with upstream: if they adopt a firm SRU-compatible policy for point releases, we'll SRU them
[15:29] <mdz> the meat of the rationale seems to be that users expect it
[15:29] <sabdfl> that way it's worth their while to do the work, because they know it will have maximum impact
[15:29] <mdz> which may be because we've done it in the past ;-)
[15:29] <sabdfl> the only users who would clamour for it are developer users, who *know* about the point release
[15:30] <sabdfl> endusers won't know about them
[15:30] <ScottK> In addition to testing, we're also monitoring KDE svn so that if others find regressions and fix them we are aware of it.
[15:30] <bdale> ScottK: sure, that's expected
[15:30] <ScottK> It seems clear I have some homework to do.
[15:30] <cjwatson> sabdfl: I have an ongoing campaign about this not being a binary state :) in between we have e.g. users who try multiple distributions and notice discrepancies
[15:30] <sabdfl> i'm sure KDE will be amenable to a clear policy, since they have regular releases which reduce the temptation to backport "cool new stuff" to a stable release
[15:30] <bdale> sabdfl: don't sell endusers short, it depends a lot on how upstream communicates point releases as to how many people know about them and want them... as a non-KDE-user, I don't know in this case
[15:30] <sabdfl> cjwatson: noted
[15:31] <sabdfl> my point is that we should assume that most users want *stability*
[15:31] <ScottK> sabdfl: There is a 4.3.4 release today and we've already gotten ping'ed in #kubuntu-devel asking where to find the update from someone who AFAIK is not involved in development.
[15:31] <bdale> sabdfl: yes
[15:31] <sabdfl> if a point release can't be certain to be increasing that, then the only people who would clamour for it are people for whom that particular upstream is very interesting
[15:32] <sabdfl> if we get a mutual understanding in place with upstream w.r.t. stable branch maintenance, it's win-win
[15:32] <sabdfl> so ScottK, let's see if that's achievable
[15:32] <ScottK> sabdfl: I'm reasonably certain that KDE's policy for updates is reasonably well aligned to what you're asking for.  I don't know that it's clearly documented.
[15:32] <sabdfl> ok
[15:33] <ScottK> Are there more questions or additional homework items for me?
[15:33] <mdz> ok, so what's the next step?
[15:33] <mdz> where should we pick this up in 2 weeks?
[15:33] <ScottK> I think I've got a list of things for Kubuntu to work on among ourselves and with upstream.
[15:34] <mdz> ScottK: [action] ScottK to revise proposal based on discussion here ?
[15:34] <ScottK> How about if we leave it open since I don't know how long it'll take with upstream.
[15:34] <ScottK> Yes.  That's good.
[15:34] <mdz> [action] ScottK to revise proposal based on discussion here
[15:34] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ScottK to revise proposal based on discussion here
[15:34] <mdz> ScottK: thank you
[15:34] <mdz> move on?
[15:34] <ScottK> Thank you for your time.
[15:35] <mdz> [topic] When is it a good idea to fail out of a maintainer script? (mdz)
[15:35] <MootBot> New Topic:  When is it a good idea to fail out of a maintainer script? (mdz)
[15:35] <mdz> this came up in discussion at UDS and there has been some ongoing chatter about it
[15:35] <mdz> I thought it would be useful to put it to the TB and see what folks think
[15:35] <pitti> hm, it should ideally only happen in preinst, and on very exceptional circumstances, such as pending data loss
[15:36] <mdz> the particular case which started the discussion was where maintainer scripts can fail due to transient error conditions, or other problems beyond the scope of the package
[15:36] <mdz> e.g. a daemon package's postinst failing because the daemon couldn't start
[15:36] <mdz> perhaps the admin made a typo in the configuration file, or something else was listening on the port, etc.
[15:36] <mdz> some packages fail in this case, others don't
[15:36] <cjwatson> the usual case that gives me difficulty is how to encapsulate things where other packages that depend upon that package will themselves fail if the depended-upon package is broken
[15:37] <mdz> YokoZar brought up a case in procps, where it was failing because there was some garbage in /etc/sysctl.d
[15:37] <cjwatson> personally I would avoid depending on something and assuming that its daemon is running, but that seems a possibility in the more complicated corners of the system
[15:38] <cjwatson> I would make a general recommendation for dependencies to be as weak as possible, in those terms, but how much my recommendation is worth I'm not sure :)
[15:38] <mdz> in cases like that one, I don't see the value in failing the maintainer script and forcing the user to clean it up
[15:38] <cjwatson> I suppose the question is what "successfully configured" means
[15:38] <cjwatson> and what other packages are expecting from it
[15:38] <mdz> searching google for "policy manual" returns the Debian policy manual as the second hit for me
[15:39] <bdale> ;-)
[15:39] <cjwatson> if, say, perl is unable to load its core modules, then everything depending on it is going to be pretty unhappy anyway
[15:39] <cjwatson> this case is deliberately exaggerated but we clearly need a case where failing *is* reasonable in order to draw the bounds
[15:39] <mdz> yes
[15:39] <mdz> but if, say, scrollkeeper fails to register the package's documentation, not so much
[15:40] <bdale> one assumes this is primarily an issue on upgrades?
[15:40] <mdz> some folks have made an argument that it's better to have these problems made evident so that they are diagnosed and fixed
[15:40] <pitti> another valid (IMHO) example is a new DB server which detects that you have a previous-version database which can't be automigrated
[15:40] <pitti> then the preinst should fail with a message
[15:40] <mdz> but I would argue that failing the upgrade or installation is not the best way to achieve that
[15:40] <cjwatson> it does kind of bother me that we are designing a system that assumes success and hides failures
[15:40] <mdz> pitti: I agree, there are definitely cases where it is valid in preinst
[15:40] <mdz> that is much easier to recover from
[15:40] <pitti> arguably we need to make our upgrading tools more robust for these cases as well, but in general we have too many failed packages
[15:41] <pitti> upgrading tools> if one package in your 5.000 fails to upgrade, you basically loose; no way to bring up update-manager any more to clean up/finish the upgrade
[15:41] <pitti> and in a lot of cases you even fail to boot because the initramfs wasn't rebuilt, etc.
[15:41] <mdz> browsing https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=apport-package is very educational
[15:41] <ibuclaw> cjwatson, we wouldn't be the first or last people to do so though ... Windows 7 hides segmentation faults now apparently ;)
[15:42] <cjwatson> I don't have a clear idea on how to set policy on this; I definitely think there are many cases where adding || true is appropriate, but I don't see a way to mandate anything
[15:42] <mdz> it should be possible to formulate a rule of thumb, I would tihnk
[15:42] <mdz> think
[15:43] <bdale> pitti: a package whose installation failing causes a system to be unbootable sounds like a grave problem, to me.  does that really happen?
[15:43] <mdz> e.g. failing postinst is only advisable if packages depending on this one will also fail to be configured
[15:43] <cjwatson> I'm looking for a definition of what it means to be "configured" in the dpkg sense, and have been unable to find one
[15:43] <cjwatson> I mean, obviously I know the technical steps involved
[15:43] <mdz> cjwatson: me either
[15:43] <pitti> bdale: yes, because it usually leaves a large trail of unconfigured packages behind
[15:43] <cjwatson> but I want a definition of desired states
[15:44] <pitti> bdale: I heared that more than once from acquaintances, that cost me a lot of phone support..
[15:44] <mvo_> I think its good that this is discussed, I think failure of (re)starting a daemon should not be a postinst fail (at least in release upgrades)
[15:44] <mdz> mvo_: oh hi, thanks for speaking up
[15:44] <cjwatson> configured ought to be sufficient for depending-upon packages to work. It ought to be such that you don't need to move lots of files around to make the package work. It ought to be such that the system is in a checkpointed state where it basically still works. Um ...
[15:45] <mdz> mvo_: you probably get more than your share of these bug reports ;-)
[15:45] <ibuclaw> cjwatson, is this the page you are currently at? http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-maintainerscripts.html
[15:45] <mvo_> it might be worthwhile to differentiate between normal and release upgrades, the later tend to more troublesome if a script bails out
[15:45] <ibuclaw> or were at
[15:45] <mvo_> mdz: I do
[15:45] <mdz> bdale: if the failure causes dpkg/apt to not attempt to configure the dependent packages, even if it would have worked, that's a net loss
[15:45] <mvo_> mdz: more than I want :)
[15:45] <bdale> mdz: indeed
[15:45] <cjwatson> in the specific case of a daemon I think I generally agree that it is not worth failing postinsts; but I'm hesitant to lay down the law on that because there are a lot of weird cases out there
[15:46] <mdz> I think the answer could very well be different in development vs. post-release
[15:46] <mdz> e.g. --force-overwrite
[15:46]  * mvo_ nods
[15:46] <cjwatson> ibuclaw: yes, but it does not answer the question I posed; it specifies the technical steps involved in configuring a package, which I know, but it does not specify the, er, philosophical state of being configured
[15:46] <bdale> we've certainly always tolerated levels of breakage in Debian unstable that would not be considered acceptable in stable
[15:47] <mdz> to try to wrap up this agenda item, I wanted to get input on whether this is something the TB should consider in depth and make a recommendation about
[15:47] <cjwatson> does anyone here have expertise in weird daemons that really do need to be started in order to configure dependent packages?
[15:47] <bdale> mdz: my take is that it's a really intersting question, but something that shouldn't be handled hastily
[15:47] <cjwatson> maybe we can just consider those bugs since they generally won't work inside chroots and the like
[15:48] <bdale> mdz: and this is the first TB agenda item for which I think some explicit coordination with the Debian TC would be interesting to pursue
[15:48] <mdz> bdale: so if we assume that any TB recommendation would not be made hastily, is it something we should devote some attention to? ;-)
[15:48] <mdz> bdale: aha!
[15:49] <pitti> cjwatson: policykit was such a daemon
[15:49] <ibuclaw> cjwatson, don't you dpkg-divert --rename initctl and ln -s true initctl in chroot's to disable services from restarting anyway?
[15:49] <pitti> cjwatson: without it running you couldn't configure hal, since that requires setting up a PK privilege which hal needs
[15:49] <cjwatson> ibuclaw: typically, yes, which is what I'm referring to
[15:49] <pitti> PK isn't started from postinst, but it's the same principle
[15:49] <cjwatson> in "maybe we can just consider those bugs"
[15:50] <cjwatson> pitti: was that considered a bug?
[15:50] <mdz> let's try to wrap this up
[15:50] <mdz> should we take some action or no?
[15:50] <mdz> options:
[15:50] <mdz> - open a dialogue with the Debian TC
[15:51] <mdz> - somebody go off and give it a good long think and come up with a proposal
[15:51] <mdz> - start a discussion thread on a mailing list
[15:51] <mdz> - announce a webinar
[15:51] <bdale> any discussion with the Debian TC will proceed better if it starts with a straw-man proposal
[15:51] <mdz> ...kidding
[15:51] <bdale> as the TC is not in the habit of initiating policy from whole cloth
[15:52] <mdz> ok, I'm not hearing any strong views so I'll just leave it alone for the moment, we can revisit at the next meeting if we have time
[15:52] <mdz> [topic] Ubuntu Licensing Policy (raised by Ken Wimer)
[15:52] <MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Licensing Policy (raised by Ken Wimer)
[15:52] <mdz> this already has an action for colin on the agenda
[15:52] <mdz> anything to discuss?
[15:52] <cjwatson> nothing else as far as I'm aware; we discussed it last time
[15:52] <mdz> [topic] Execute Permission Policy (KeesCook)
[15:52] <MootBot> New Topic:  Execute Permission Policy (KeesCook)
[15:52] <mdz> kees is not here, perhaps we should hold off until he's back?
[15:53] <mdz> meanwhile, folks can review the document
[15:53] <mdz> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Policies#Execute-Permission%20Bit%20Required
[15:53] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Policies#Execute-Permission%20Bit%20Required
[15:53] <cjwatson> we discussed much of this last time, but without kees, I think we should postpone
[15:53]  * mdz pokes MootBot
[15:53] <mdz> ok
[15:53] <cjwatson> there were some thorny issues
[15:53] <mdz> [topic] Check up on community bugs (standing item)
[15:53] <MootBot> New Topic:  Check up on community bugs (standing item)
[15:53] <mdz> we have some bugs!
[15:54] <mdz> [topic] bug 485569: TB term length is unclear
[15:54] <MootBot> New Topic:  bug 485569: TB term length is unclear
[15:54] <mdz> LP and www.ubuntu.com disagree about the length of a term on the TB
[15:54] <mdz> er, LP and wiki.ubuntu.com
[15:54] <mdz> www.ubuntu.com has nothing to say about it, but probably should
[15:54] <mdz> is it one year or two?
[15:54] <cjwatson> I must say I always thought it was two
[15:55] <sabdfl> i think we tried to stagger it at one stage
[15:55] <mdz> I thought so as well, I vaguely recall the rationale being that made it possible to have annual elections with staggered terms
[15:55] <sabdfl> so some were appointed for one, some for two
[15:55] <sabdfl> but the meme elsewhere is to go with two and reappoint the whole group at a time
[15:55] <sabdfl> which is pretty much where we are now
[15:55] <sabdfl> modulo cjwatson, iirc
[15:56] <mdz> sabdfl: so what should we do to clarify it?
[15:56] <bdale> I note in passing that I'm not listed at https://edge.launchpad.net/~techboard/+members
[15:57] <mdz> bdale: IIRC you agreed only to sit in and see what was involved, to help us define a role for a debian representative if one made sense
[15:57] <sabdfl> hmm, tb at present has an initial period (730 days) and renewal period (365 days)
[15:57] <bdale> mdz: true
[15:57] <sabdfl> i can change the renewal period to 730 days, if that helps
[15:57] <sabdfl> and can add bdale at the same time if that would best reflect his representing debian here
[15:58] <mdz> sabdfl: I think that would be premature
[15:58] <mdz> at some point (and we should have set a timeline for this originally, my oversight) we should put a discussion topic on the agenda about this
[15:58] <sabdfl> it probably grants super cow powers all over the place
[15:58] <mdz> bdale agreed to participate in the meetings for a while and see what we do
[15:58] <bdale> mdz/sabdfl: mdz makes a good point, we should probably have a discussion offline about how this should work now that I've lurked for a while
[15:58] <mdz> so that we could talk about what a debian representative role would entail
[15:58] <sabdfl> ok
[15:59] <mdz> but to come back to the term issue...I'm assuming that this is a sabdfl decision since there's noplace else to appeal to
[15:59] <bdale> the OSI folks, for example, have an explicit 'observer' role that is non-voting but fully participatory otherwise, could be worth considering something intermediate like that
[15:59] <sabdfl> but the renewal period to 730 would at least remove some confusion (it's not really relevant, we don't allow self-renewal anyhow)
[15:59] <mdz> so...
[15:59] <sabdfl> i prefer giving folks a real say if they're invited to the party
[16:00] <sabdfl> advisory boards are less interesting than real boards :-)
[16:00] <mdz> sabdfl: [action] sabdfl to update LP/wiki/www to reflect the actual term length for TB ?
[16:00] <sabdfl> done
[16:00] <sabdfl> well, LP
[16:00] <mdz> whatever you decide is fine with me
[16:00] <mdz> either 1 or 2 or some combination
[16:00] <sabdfl> where's the relevant wiki page? i also don't know how to edit the website (blush)
[16:00] <mdz> sabdfl: it's in the bug
[16:00] <cjwatson> I'll shove it in the website now
[16:01] <mdz> I've assigned the bug for tracking
[16:01] <cjwatson> just say "two years"?
[16:01] <mdz> we're out of time, but there are two more
[16:01] <pitti> so people could be elected in phases (as they already are), to avoid replacing the entire board at a time
[16:01] <sabdfl> cjwatson: +1
[16:01] <pitti> that should work well with a consistent 2 years period, too
[16:02] <mdz> bug 485971 is waiting for an RT ticket to be processed
[16:02] <mdz> cjwatson: could you nudge it in the next IS meeting?
[16:02] <cjwatson> ok
[16:02] <mdz> [action] cjwatson to nudge RT 35428
[16:02] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to nudge RT 35428
[16:03] <mdz> bug 485559
[16:03] <cjwatson> I have given it a non-zero priority so that it stops vanishing
[16:03] <mdz> sabdfl was re-elected to TB but didn't have an expiry set; this fits into the term discussion as well
[16:03] <mdz> sabdfl: should you expire like everybody else or are you special in that regard?
[16:04]  * bdale chuckles
[16:04] <sabdfl> i certainly hope to be
[16:04] <sabdfl> but... mortality beckons
[16:04] <mdz> har
[16:04] <cjwatson> expires: sometime after upload
[16:04] <sabdfl> i'm happy to expire from this team like everyone else if you request that
[16:05] <sabdfl> i've also clarified that a vote of Ubuntu developers means a vote of anyone who can upload to the archive, main or universe, or subsets, or even individual packages
[16:06] <cjwatson> yes, that is how we have implemented things to date
[16:06] <cjwatson> which reminds me though, we need to add delegated teams to ubuntu-dev; I'll do that now
[16:06] <mdz> sabdfl: it's not up to me, this was just flagged in one of our governance reviews as an inconsistency
[16:06] <sabdfl> hmm... ubuntu-dev might be used for main/universe upload
[16:07] <mdz> the foundation documents don't specify
[16:07] <cjwatson> it is not
[16:07] <sabdfl> ok
[16:07] <cjwatson> we verified that when we started doing per-package uploaders, and adding them to ubuntu-dev
[16:07] <cjwatson> (universe/multiverse upload => motu; motu is a member of ubuntu-dev)
[16:07] <sabdfl> mdz: personally, i'd prefer to be on the TB ex officio as long as i'm bdfl
[16:08] <mdz> sabdfl: whatever you decide, I think the official www docs should explain it
[16:08] <sabdfl> if that makes folks uncomfortable, i don't mind dropping off it, but you and others have said it helps
[16:08] <sabdfl> to build links to other parts of the project
[16:08] <mdz> so that we're self-consistent with our governance policies
[16:08] <bdale> I'd write it in as a special case, personally
[16:08] <sabdfl> ok. i don't mind having the same status as the debian representative ;-)
[16:08] <pitti> not having the DFL on the technical board sounds kind of strange to me, FWIW
[16:08] <mdz> we're over time, can we wrap up?
[16:08] <mdz> we can pick this up next time
[16:09]  * bdale ^5's sabdfl
[16:09] <mdz> [topic] select a chair for the next meeting
[16:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  select a chair for the next meeting
[16:09] <sabdfl> backatcha :-)
[16:09] <mdz> who's up?
[16:09] <mdz> 3...
[16:09] <mdz> 2...
[16:09] <mdz> 1...
[16:09] <sabdfl> wasn't this week due to be kees?
[16:09] <pitti> kees again?
[16:09] <mdz> kees it is
[16:09] <mdz> #endmeeting
[16:09] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:09.
[16:09] <mdz> kees: as penalty for skipping your turn chairing, please help me with the TeamReport, as I have back-to-back meetings after this ;-)
[16:11] <pitti> thanks all, and sorry for being late
[16:36] <kees> mdz: ah, sorry, on holiday this week.  I will review the scrollback.
[18:00] <bjf> Roll Call
[18:00]  * smb is here
[18:00]  * ogasawara waves
[18:00]  * amitk is here
[18:00]  * apw hides behind smb
[18:01]  * pgraner waves 0/
[18:01]  * rtg is here
[18:01] <bjf> #startmeeting
[18:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 12:01. The chair is bjf.
[18:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[18:01] <bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
[18:01] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
[18:01] <bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
[18:01] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
[18:01] <bjf> [TOPIC] Lucid Release Status: Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targeted Bugs
[18:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid Release Status: Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targeted Bugs
[18:01] <ogasawara> Release Meeting Bugs (0 bugs) - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Lucid
[18:02] <ogasawara> Alpha 1 Milestoned Bugs (12 bugs) - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21443
[18:02] <ogasawara>  * 2 linux kernel bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21443
[18:02] <ogasawara>  * 0 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-fsl-imx51/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21443
[18:02] <ogasawara>  * 0 linux-ec2 bug - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-ec2/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21443
[18:02] <ogasawara>  * 0 linux-mvl-dove bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-mvl-dove/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=21443
[18:02] <ogasawara> * Release Targeted Bugs (54 bugs) https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs
[18:02] <ogasawara>  * 4 linux kernel bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux
[18:02] <ogasawara>  * 0 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-fsl-imx51
[18:02] <ogasawara>  * 0 linux-ec2 bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-ec2
[18:02] <ogasawara>  * 0 linux-mvl-dove bugs - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/linux-mvl-dove
[18:02] <ogasawara> ..
[18:02] <bjf> any comments/questions?
[18:02] <bjf> [TOPIC] Lucid Release Status: Milestoned Features
[18:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid Release Status: Milestoned Features
[18:02] <ogasawara> Milestoned Features - https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-10.04
[18:03] <ogasawara> ..
[18:03] <pgraner> apw: do think we can keep up with the Milestoned and Release bugs this cycle?
[18:03] <apw> as in get them fixed, or keep track of them
[18:03] <pgraner> apw: that is track and fix them at a faster rate then last time?
[18:03] <pgraner> apw: both
[18:03] <apw> well we are tracking them better already
[18:04] <pgraner> apw: if not fix keep the bugs fresh with status
[18:04] <apw> we will cirtainly be trying to keep them more under control
[18:04] <apw> we may need to pull people in to attack them
[18:04] <rtg> ogasawara, the milestoned features page does not appear to have any kernel work
[18:04] <pgraner> apw: the big complaint last cycle was we had lots of bugs like that but we never touched them
[18:04] <ogasawara> rtg: nope, not at the moment
[18:04] <pgraner> apw: or at least often if we were waiting on upstream
[18:05] <apw> pgraner, i ma keeping track of all lucid specific bugs under a new tag
[18:05] <pgraner> apw: name?
[18:05] <apw> kernel-lucid, so at least we have better visibility of the incoming
[18:05] <pgraner> apw: ack
[18:05] <ogasawara> apw: I can give stats on that in this meeting going fwd
[18:05]  * pgraner says OVER
[18:06] <apw> ogasawara, ack
[18:06] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-decision (apw)
[18:06] <bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-decision
[18:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-decision (apw)
[18:06] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-decision
[18:06] <apw> that is just waitng on publication of the decision
[18:06] <apw> that is expected to occur by the end of the week so we should be able to remove next week
[18:06] <apw> ..
[18:06] <bjf> does it need an [ACTION]?
[18:07] <apw> i have actions in the release page already
[18:07] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-bug-handling (ogasawara)
[18:07] <bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-bug-handling
[18:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-bug-handling (ogasawara)
[18:07] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-bug-handling
[18:07] <ogasawara> Finished drafting spec.  Should be ready for Review and then Approval.
[18:07] <ogasawara> as noted above, apw's already started in on some of the work items like tagging by release
[18:07] <ogasawara> ..
[18:07] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-sru-policy-review (smb, ogasawara)
[18:07] <bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-sru-policy-review
[18:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-sru-policy-review (smb, ogasawara)
[18:07] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-sru-policy-review
[18:08] <smb> documentation done. just waits on publication (done in one, no action needed)
[18:08] <smb> ..
[18:08] <apw> we plan a combined annoucenment update email at the end of the week
[18:08] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta (apw)
[18:08] <bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta
[18:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta (apw)
[18:08] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-review-of-ubuntu-delta
[18:08] <apw> we have dropped a bunch of old cruft patches.  we are moving on onto the 'review items' now
[18:08] <apw> next is pulling up drivers ... starting with AA
[18:08] <apw> ..
[18:09] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review (apw)
[18:09] <bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review
[18:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review (apw)
[18:09] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kernel-config-review
[18:09] <apw> that is nearly complete, again announcement is pending
[18:09] <apw> there is a the config checker outstanding there
[18:09] <apw> ..
[18:09] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kms (sconklin)
[18:09] <bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kms
[18:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-kms (sconklin)
[18:09] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-kms
[18:10] <sconklin> The web pages are up to date - discussion is ongoing about how to include nouveau
[18:10] <apw> the review of nouveau is pretty hideous, likely a backports module apprach will be needed
[18:10] <sconklin> apw suggested as a backports module, and I think that's brilliant
[18:11] <amitk> will that mean its own drm stack?
[18:11] <sconklin> nouveau requires that all of drm-next be brought in
[18:11] <pgraner> amitk: yep
[18:11]  * amitk remembers the mess with poulsbo
[18:11]  * apw cries
[18:11]  * pgraner hands apw a crying towel
[18:11] <amitk> headers need to be fixed (if the lbm package is installed)
[18:12] <bjf> sconklin, is that all?
[18:12] <sconklin> My comfort level re: nouveau is very low
[18:12] <sconklin> yeah
[18:12] <sconklin> ...
[18:12] <rtg> amitk, do we really need to support 3rd party builds?
[18:12] <amitk> rtg: dunno. Don't we?
[18:13] <apw> seems like a stretch goal to me
[18:13] <rtg> for LBM modules? I don't think so
[18:13] <amitk> is this going to be 'supported'?
[18:13] <amitk> or an experimental feature
[18:13] <rtg> LBM y its nature is only best effort
[18:13] <rtg> by*
[18:14] <apw> and they will have -nv to fall back on
[18:14] <apw> and the binary drivers
[18:14] <amitk> I guess its ok then, if that is communicated in advance
[18:14] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-suspend-resume (manjo)
[18:14] <bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-suspend-resume
[18:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-suspend-resume (manjo)
[18:14] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-suspend-resume
[18:14] <bjf> manjo is out today
[18:14] <bjf> ..
[18:15] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-apparmor-development (jjohansen)
[18:15] <bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-apparmor-development
[18:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-apparmor-development (jjohansen)
[18:15] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-apparmor-development
[18:15] <jjohansen> next posting should go out thursday
[18:15] <jjohansen> ec2 and thankgiving ate my cycles last week
[18:16] <apw> we have a plan for pulling in the current version to lucid as soon as its ready to post
[18:16] <jjohansen> right
[18:16] <bjf> ??
[18:17] <apw> bjf?
[18:17] <jjohansen> just agreeing with apw
[18:17] <bjf> jjohansen, is that all
[18:17] <jjohansen> yes
[18:17] <apw> ..
[18:17] <bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-lucid-boot-performance (apw, csurbhi)
[18:17] <bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-boot-performance
[18:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-lucid-boot-performance (apw, csurbhi)
[18:17] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-lucid-boot-performance
[18:17]  * apw lets csurbhi talk ...
[18:18] <csurbhi> doing tests to see if populate_rootfs can be executed in parallel
[18:18] <csurbhi> and if we get any speedup by doing the same
[18:18] <csurbhi> had a good result today
[18:18] <rtg> csurbhi, how much time did it save?
[18:18] <csurbhi> shall do this for lucid kernel by tonight and post a patch and a boot image
[18:19] <csurbhi> i dont have the exact number for lucid yet
[18:19] <csurbhi> i did it on a vanilla 2.6.31 kernel to see if any time can be saved
[18:19] <rtg> a ballpark would suffice :)
[18:19] <csurbhi> creating a .deb package for lucid rt now
[18:19] <apw> the times on the test were vastly different, the pictures implied we might get as much as 40% saving for lucid
[18:20] <csurbhi> i think around 2 sec
[18:20] <rtg> well, thats significant
[18:20] <csurbhi> but definitely less than that
[18:20] <csurbhi> around 1+ sec
[18:20] <csurbhi> actually
[18:20] <apw> the test kerenl were booting in approx 2x the time of lucid
[18:21] <apw> jjohansen, where are we with the apparmour out of
[18:21] <bjf> csurbhi, is that all?
[18:21] <apw> initramfs stuff?  as i assume that'll save us a bit of unpack time
[18:21] <jjohansen> I started looking at upstartifying the init script but not very far
[18:22] <apw> ok ...
[18:22] <apw> ..
[18:22] <csurbhi> yes
[18:22] <bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: Lucid Audio Support (bjf)
[18:22] <MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: Lucid Audio Support (bjf)
[18:22] <bjf> I've started working today on my Audio crack of the day build work. I'm starting with the work rtg did for karmic-lbm
[18:22] <bjf> ..
[18:22] <bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: Lucid Better Power Mgt (amitk)
[18:22] <MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: Lucid Better Power Mgt (amitk)
[18:23] <amitk> Been doing some baseline idle power measurements on my laptop
[18:23] <amitk> waiting on reference HW from pgraner
[18:23] <apw> what we going to use as reference here?
[18:23] <amitk> next steps is to define the set of usecases we care about for measurements
[18:23] <amitk> Dell Mini 10V was suggested - with and w/o SSD
[18:24] <apw> works for me
[18:24] <amitk> other tasks have been defined at
[18:24] <amitk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/LucidTasks
[18:24] <apw> have you seen keybuk's automated tests for boot speed?
[18:24] <apw> i wonder if we could produce power numbers in a similar way / get him to in the same builds
[18:24] <amitk> i chatted with him at UDS about it. I will ping him for the scripts
[18:25] <apw> might be nice to double up on his h/w there, get automatic readings from him
[18:25] <amitk> yes, makes sense
[18:25] <amitk> bjf: action me
[18:25] <bjf> [ACTION] amitk to get with keybuk on automated tests
[18:25] <MootBot> ACTION received:  amitk to get with keybuk on automated tests
[18:26] <amitk> that is all for now
[18:26] <bjf> amitk, is that all? (..)
[18:26] <apw> that looks like a nose
[18:26] <amitk> heh
[18:26] <bjf> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: EC2 Lucid Kernel Status (jjohansen)
[18:26] <MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: EC2 Lucid Kernel Status (jjohansen)
[18:27] <jjohansen> updated to latest patchset, apw packaged it into a ppa, everything tested out
[18:27] <jjohansen> so apw is going to roll out to the archive
[18:28] <bjf> '..' indicates that you are done
[18:28] <jjohansen> I still have to do some config updates to get EC2 closer to the virtual kernel configs but we are closer than we were in Karmic
[18:28] <jjohansen> ..
[18:28] <bjf> :-)
[18:28] <bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Lucid (apw)
[18:28] <MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Lucid (apw)
[18:28] <apw> yep its pleasing to have them so early in the cyle (-ec2)
[18:29] <apw> lucid we are mostly waiting on 2.6.32.  otherwise a few security items coming
[18:29] <apw> ..
[18:29] <bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Karmic/Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (smb)
[18:29] <MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Karmic/Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (smb)
[18:29] <smb> Short status this time: No current change. Security update nearby. Karmic SRU update follows closely.
[18:29] <smb> ..
[18:29] <bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (ogasawara)
[18:29] <MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions (ogasawara)
[18:29] <ogasawara> Current regression stats:
[18:29] <ogasawara>  * regression-potential bugs: 9 (down 30) https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-potential
[18:29] <ogasawara>  * regression-release bugs: 87 (up 34)  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-release
[18:29] <ogasawara>  * regression-update bugs: 14 (up 2)  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-update
[18:29] <ogasawara>  * regression-proposed: 1 (down 1) https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-proposed
[18:30] <ogasawara> Note that the majority of regression-potential bugs have now become regression-release bugs which accounts for the larger delta this week
[18:30] <ogasawara> ..
[18:30] <bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (ogasawara)
[18:30] <MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (ogasawara)
[18:30] <ogasawara> Next bug day will be Tues Dec 8.  I'll send email later this week.
[18:30] <ogasawara> ..
[18:30] <bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
[18:30] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
[18:30] <apw> ogasawara, on the incoming bugs ...
[18:30] <apw> would it be better to split by series there
[18:31] <apw> as the meaning of potential etc changes over time
[18:31] <apw> (incoming regressions)
[18:31] <ogasawara> apw: should be easy to do since we're tagging by release
[18:31] <bjf> [ACTION] bjf to review lucid tasks to see if anything needs to be added to the meeting agenda
[18:31] <MootBot> ACTION received:  bjf to review lucid tasks to see if anything needs to be added to the meeting agenda
[18:32] <bjf> anything else?
[18:32] <apw> bjf we might be able to generate the tasks bits from the status page generator
[18:32] <bjf> apw, ok
[18:32] <bjf> thanks everyone
[18:32] <bjf> #endmeeting
[18:32] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:32.
[18:32] <apw> thx
[18:33] <smb> thxbye
[18:34] <amitk> kthxbye
[18:59] <czam> buenas tarde, este es el canal de la reunion para ubuntu member?
[19:20] <MenZa> czam: I'm not very proficient in Spanish, but assuming you're asking about the EMEA Membership meeting, that's in ~40 minutes from now.
[19:20] <MenZa> czam: And yes, this is where you want to be :)
[19:20] <czam> MenZa ok, thanks ;)
[19:20] <BlackZ> hi all :D
[19:21] <Ioneye> Hi BlackZ
[19:21] <czam> Hi everyone :D
[19:51] <frandieguez> EMEA in 10 minutes, isn't it?
[19:51] <forumsmatthew> yes
[19:51] <MenZa> According to my schedule, that sounds about right
[19:52] <czam> yep
[19:52] <topyli> hi MenZa <3
[19:53] <MenZa> Hello topyli :)
[19:53] <topyli> i made it! was called to play drums for some people who needed drums played, but i was able to get out
[19:53] <MenZa> excellent
[19:54] <topyli> terrible, long day all in all :\
[19:54]  * MenZa hugs topyli
[19:54] <MenZa> I'm quite tired myself
[19:54] <MenZa> Looking forward to hopping into bed
[19:54] <fagan_> hi all
[19:54]  * topyli tickles MenZa
[19:55] <MenZa> hello, fagan_
[19:55] <IngForigua> Hello everyone
[19:55] <IngForigua> good luck today
[19:55] <IngForigua> :)
[19:55] <Ioneye> you too IngForigua :)
[19:55]  * MenZa bows.
[19:56] <asanchez> Hi everybody, thanks IngForigua
[19:56]  * Ioneye bows before MenZa 
[19:56] <ibuclaw> good evening
[19:56] <AlanBell> evening all
[19:57] <IngForigua> Good evening ibuclaw
[19:57] <frandieguez> Hello everyone
[19:57] <czam> AlanBell Hi
[19:57] <Bodsda> Evenin all
[19:57] <forumsmatthew> warm and cheerful greetings to all
[19:57] <fmolinero> Hello everyone!
[19:57] <czam> hola paco ;)
[19:57] <tdr112> evening
[19:58] <IngForigua> hola fmolinero buen trabajo como traductor
[19:58] <czajkowski> Aloha
[19:58] <ibuclaw> Bodsda, that was a quick smoke you sure had...
[19:58] <MenZa> Evening czajkowski
[19:58] <AlanBell> hi czajkowski
[19:58] <declanmg> Hi all
[19:59] <airurando> Evening everyone.
[19:59] <MenZa> ibuclaw: You'd be surprised how quickly people can smoke when they're in a hurry :)
[19:59] <AlanBell> wow, cz<tab> is ambiguous tonight!
[19:59] <lau1> good evening
[19:59] <ibuclaw> MenZa, indeed =)
[19:59] <MenZa> AlanBell: it is!
[19:59] <AlanBell> hi czam
[19:59]  * MenZa pours coffee all around
[20:00] <MenZa> evening, brobostigon
[20:00]  * Ioneye thanks MenZa 
[20:00] <Neil3> ey up :)
[20:00] <brobostigon> hêlo MenZa
[20:00] <liel> Hello
[20:00] <asanchez> thanks fmolinero for the translations we use daily, it's difficult to find something untranslated into spanish because of you :D
[20:00] <liel> Is there a meeting today of EMEA membership board?
[20:00] <forumsmatthew> yes
[20:00] <frandieguez> yes
[20:00] <popey> yes!
[20:01] <MenZa> there is indeed.
[20:01] <Ioneye> Yes liel.
[20:01] <frandieguez> we're all waiting
[20:01] <popey> Seveas *poke*
[20:01] <fagan_> good luck all
[20:01]  * MenZa bows to fagan_ 
[20:01] <popey> markvandenborre *poke*
[20:01] <frandieguez> good luck!
[20:01] <topyli> ah i see the clock
[20:01] <markvandenborre> popey: alive and kicking!
[20:01] <popey> yay
[20:01] <popey> who are we missing?
[20:01] <IngForigua> it's time :)
[20:01] <liel> I wanted to register to this meeting, but I'm going to sleep at 20:30 UTC
[20:02] <forumsmatthew> stgraber *poke*
[20:02] <popey> ah yes
[20:02] <markvandenborre> (I might have to leave the meeting early today!)
[20:02] <hollman> hello all
[20:02] <fagan_> evening Mean-Machine
[20:02] <hollman> IngForigua: where is czam ?
[20:02] <popey> well so far we are 3
[20:03] <Mean-Machine> fagan_: hello
[20:03] <IngForigua> hollman is here
[20:03] <MenZa> popey: 'tis a start
[20:03] <czam> here I am
[20:03] <czam> Hi Hollman Thanks for your support :)
[20:03] <IngForigua> czam the hollma's bithday is near xD
[20:04] <hollman> ho czam IngForigua  good luck today !!!
[20:04] <popey> just 1 min and we'll start
[20:04] <IngForigua> thanks hollman ;)
[20:04] <markvandenborre> popey: are you taking the lead this time?
[20:04] <popey> yeah, can do
[20:04] <forumsmatthew> sounds good to me
[20:04] <Seveas> oi
[20:04] <Seveas> sorry for being late
[20:04] <forumsmatthew> \o/
[20:05] <Neil3> A - L - A - N - B - E - L - L !!! *waves pompoms* YAY!
[20:05]  * MenZa slides Seveas some taart.jpg.
[20:05] <popey> yay
[20:05]  * AlanBell blushes
[20:05] <popey> right, lets start
[20:05] <Seveas> fmolinero, you're up first
[20:05] <fmolinero> Ok,
[20:06] <ibuclaw> drubin, ! :)
[20:06] <fmolinero> Hello everyone
[20:06] <ibuclaw> and hi duanedesign,
[20:06] <fmolinero> This is my secon time here
[20:06] <forestpiskie> hi ibuclaw
[20:06] <fmolinero> My name is Francisco Molineo. I'm spanish
[20:06] <mhall119|work> hey All
[20:06] <popey> nice beard
[20:06] <mhall119|work> bah
[20:06] <ibuclaw> hi fmolinero - and forestpiskie
[20:06] <mhall119|work> AlanBell:
[20:06] <forestpiskie> forumsmatthew: a word please
[20:06] <fmolinero> And muy main job in Ubuntu is translate to spanish
[20:07] <forumsmatthew> reminder: agenda is here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA
[20:07] <fmolinero> I'm a member of Ubuntu spanish ttranslator team
[20:07] <popey> Ok, based on testimonials and clealy great translation work, I'm an easy +1 here
[20:07] <Seveas> yay, there are testimonials now
[20:07] <Seveas> +1, easily
[20:08] <Seveas> thanks for coming back fmolinero
[20:08] <forumsmatthew> agreed. +1 this time. thank you
[20:08] <fmolinero> and may last time here the problem was that I have not people standing me
[20:08] <Seveas> markvandenborre, ?
[20:08] <markvandenborre> +1
[20:08] <popey> yay
[20:08] <markvandenborre> hurray!
[20:08] <Seveas> ok, that was quick :)
[20:08] <Seveas> welcome aboard fmolinero!
[20:08] <topyli> <3
[20:08] <fagan_> congrats fmolinero
[20:08] <jchaves> congrats!
[20:09] <frandieguez> congrats fmoliinero!
[20:09] <Mamarok> contrats fmolinero
[20:09] <czam> congratulations Fmolinero ;)
[20:09] <fmolinero> thank you!
[20:09] <liel> fmolinero: I see you are very active in Translations!
[20:09] <Bodsda> congrats fmolinero
[20:09] <MenZa> congratulations, fmolinero
[20:09] <lau1> well done
[20:09] <hollman> fmolinero: congrats from Colombia
[20:09] <Seveas> ibuclaw, you're up
[20:09] <Ioneye> congrats fmolinero !
[20:09] <jchaves> contracts?
[20:09] <czam> felicidades paco molinero ;)
[20:09] <asanchez> enhorabuena Paco!
[20:09] <fmolinero> gracias
[20:09]  * popey has added fmolinero to ~ubuntumembers
[20:09] <BlackZ> fmolinero, congratulations :D
[20:09] <ibuclaw> Seveas, ty
[20:09] <itnet7> congrats fmolinero !!
[20:09] <drubin> \o/ ibuclaw goooood luck.
[20:09] <Mamarok> oops, congrats, of course :)
[20:09] <IngForigua> :) fmolinero bienvenido
[20:09] <jchaves> hehe
[20:09] <ibuclaw> If you haven't read it. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ibuclaw
[20:10]  * drubin is here to cheer on ibuclaw
[20:10] <forumsmatthew> I will give a quick +1 because I know Iain well from his work in the forums
[20:10] <popey> holy cow look at all those testimonials!
[20:10] <duanedesign> Im here to support ibuclaw, his contribution to helping new users on the forums and in #ubuntu-beginners-help is second to none
[20:10] <ibuclaw> My name is Iain Buclaw. I am a member of the Beginners Team. I have been contributing on the Forums and IRC since April 2008.
[20:10] <Seveas> yeah, that's.... impressive
[20:11] <forumsmatthew> also, forestpiskie asked me to lend his support as he had guests arrive at his house and couldn't stay
[20:11]  * fagan_ didnt have that many testimonials when he got his ubuntu membership
[20:11] <Bodsda> I have to go. But ibuclaw has a huge +1 from me
[20:11] <markvandenborre> sorry to be so quick here, but I think a +1 is appropriate
[20:11] <popey> yeah, thats an easy +1 from me
[20:11] <Silver-Fox-> I support ibuclaw.  He's very friendly,  very helpful and an all round  great guy.  Big +1 from me =]
[20:11] <Seveas> agreed, +1
[20:12] <Seveas> ok, that's +4, welcome!
[20:12] <ibuclaw> thanks =)
[20:12]  * popey adds ibuclaw to ~ubuntumembers
[20:12] <duanedesign> \o/
[20:12] <frandieguez> congrats
[20:12] <fagan_> congrats ibuclaw o/
[20:12] <MenZa> ibuclaw: congratulations :)
[20:12] <czam> congrats ;)
[20:12] <Seveas> frandieguez, you're next
[20:12] <Ioneye> congrats ibuclaw
[20:12] <frandieguez> Hi everyone, just like fmolinero is my second time here.
[20:12] <frandieguez> My name is Fran Diéguez from Spain.
[20:12] <drubin> \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/
[20:12] <TuxPurple> congrats ibuclaw :)
[20:12] <Bodsda> congrats ibuclaw
[20:12] <Mamarok> congratulations ibuclaw!
[20:12] <frandieguez>  I'm a software
[20:12] <frandieguez> engineer working at Open Source Department of a large educational
[20:12] <frandieguez> institution at Galicia (Spain)  http://www.usc.es/osl, here we are
[20:12] <frandieguez> investigating, developing and deploying open source solutions based on
[20:12] <frandieguez> Ubuntu distribution.
[20:12] <Bodsda> :) \o/ \o/
[20:12] <frandieguez> As a contributor I'm co-coordinator of the Ubuntu Galician Translation
[20:12] <frandieguez> Team, focused on translate the Ubuntu OS to Galician language.  And
[20:12] <frandieguez> co-coordinator of Galicia LOCO Team focused on spread the "word of
[20:12] <frandieguez> Ubuntu" :P
[20:12] <Mean-Machine> ibuclaw: nice one! congrats!
[20:12] <frandieguez> Finally I translate GNOME desktop to galician language with just
[20:12] <frandieguez> another person and currently we are focused on increase quality of
[20:12] <frandieguez> translations (homogeneization, terminology, and others).
[20:12] <ibuclaw> thanks all
[20:12] <frandieguez> I'm also active on http://www.glug.es/ (Galician GNU/Linux User
[20:12] <frandieguez> Group). On this group we try to talk to all the society the vantages
[20:12] <frandieguez> of Open Source, making courses, lectures at University among other
[20:12] <frandieguez> events related with Open Source. At our website you can find a lot of
[20:12] <frandieguez> mini howtos based on Ubuntu OS.
[20:13] <jchaves> congrats!!
[20:14] <Seveas> another well prepared wikipage with clear contributions and testimonials. Easily +1
[20:14] <Seveas> I like prepared people. I really do :)
[20:14] <liel> +1 :)
[20:14] <forumsmatthew> I completely agree, people are following directions and making it very easy for us thus far
[20:14] <forumsmatthew> +1
[20:14] <popey> +1 also
[20:15] <Seveas> markvandenborre, final verdict is yours
[20:15] <markvandenborre> +1
[20:15] <Seveas> excellent, +4
[20:15] <Seveas> congrats frandieguez!
[20:15] <AlanBell> congrats frandieguez
[20:15] <frandieguez> Thank you all!!
[20:15] <jchaves> hurray!
[20:15] <MenZa> frandieguez: congratulations :)
[20:15] <Mamarok> congratulations frandieguez :)
[20:15] <Seveas> AlanBell, you're up now
[20:15] <fagan_> congrats frandieguez
[20:15] <markvandenborre> ...and from me!
[20:15] <AlanBell> just letting the applause die down for a second
[20:15] <Seveas> (popey: can you keep doing the LP mangling?)
[20:15] <itnet7> congrats frandieguez and ibuclaw !
[20:15] <asanchez> enhorabuena frandieguez
[20:15]  * popey adds frandieguez to ~ubuntumembers
[20:15] <frandieguez> asanchez gracias
[20:15] <popey> yes Seveas :)
[20:16] <Seveas> ++popey
[20:16] <IngForigua> Bienvenido frandieguez
[20:16] <jchaves> well done, fran!
[20:16] <czam> congrats ;)
[20:16] <AlanBell> Hi I am Alan
[20:16] <AlanBell> I run a little business called The Open Learning Centre with my friend Alan Lord (aka The Open Sourcerer)
[20:16] <asanchez> frandieguez, we have to talk after this meeting, meybe we have common interests
[20:16] <AlanBell> I have been doing IT consultancy of one type or another for 15 years
[20:16] <AlanBell> My main focus used to be as a Lotus Notes and Domino developer, I worked for a number of Lotus then IBM business partners and in 2002 set up my own consulting business called Dominux Consulting, "Dominux" being the result of smashing together Domino and Linux
[20:16] <AlanBell> I found the projects where I delivered the best value to my customers were the ones that incorporated a Free Software component as part of the solution
[20:17] <AlanBell> so from there we set up a company to focus on the awesomness that is Free Software
[20:17] <AlanBell> then we got enthusiastic about Ubuntu
[20:17] <AlanBell> we are launching products based on Ubuntu
[20:18] <AlanBell> and being a part of the Ubuntu community is important to us
[20:18] <popey> I am aware of AlanBells work, have left a testimonial and will +1
[20:18] <popey> I may be biassed though because AlanBell has brought me beer at my local pub at least once :)
[20:19] <AlanBell> I can confirm that popey also bought a round
[20:19] <markvandenborre> I have 100% confidence in popey's judgement, +1
[20:19] <Seveas> I'm unconvinced by the wikipage, no real contributions to the ubuntu community are listed. Or am I reading it wrong?
[20:19] <czajkowski> AlanBell: rocks and is ver helpful in #ubuntu-uk and is working with us on #ubuntu-women
[20:19] <pleia2> I'm here to support AlanBell too, and I didn't accept any bribes ;)
[20:19] <forumsmatthew> same here +1
[20:19] <popey> Seveas: AlanBell provides support in our loco channel
[20:19] <Neil3> +1 for AlanBell have seen that he's really helpful in #ubuntu-uk
[20:19] <mhall119|work> I dunno, anyone who does that much with Lotus Notes is probably evil
[20:19]  * czajkowski is here to support AlanBell 
[20:19] <FFEMTcJ> lol
[20:19] <Seveas> pleia2, *always* accept bribes :)
[20:19]  * brobostigon also supports AlanBell 
[20:20] <AlanBell> mhall119|work: I am a *retired* notes developer
[20:20] <Seveas> AlanBell, are you bitter about it? :)
[20:20]  * fagan_ supports AlanBell 
[20:20]  * Mamarok gives her support to AlanBell, too
[20:20] <mhall119|work> okay, you get my non-counting +1 then
[20:20] <AlanBell> Seveas: actually no, the core of Notes is fantastic, and the architecture of CouchDB is based on some of the principals of that
[20:21]  * Pendulum also supports AlanBell 
[20:21] <Seveas> I'm +0, so +3 for AlanBell, which still is enough :)
[20:21] <Seveas> welcome aboard AlanBell !
[20:21] <mhall119|work> AlanBell: it was always the interface for Notes that bothered me
[20:21] <Mamarok> congratulations, AlanBell :)
[20:21] <czajkowski> AlanBell: whoooo congrats!!!!
[20:21] <mhall119|work> congrats AlanBell
[20:21] <MenZa> Congratulations, AlanBell.
[20:21] <Ioneye> congrats AlanBell
[20:21] <Neil3> 'gratz AlanBell
[20:21]  * popey adds AlanBell to ~ubuntumembers
[20:21] <topyli> yey!
[20:22] <Seveas> topyli, you're up next
[20:22] <fagan_> congrats AlanBell
[20:22] <AlanBell> thanks!
[20:22] <topyli> right
[20:22] <Mamarok> yay, topyli!
[20:22] <itnet7> congrats AlanBell !
[20:22] <popey> ooo, topyli is an easy +1 for me, I've seen topylis work and it's great, combined with great testimonials
[20:22] <Seveas> +∞ from me on topily, years of IRC contributions.
[20:22] <Pici> woo! topyli!
[20:22]  * MenZa concurs; topyli does amazing work in keeping -ot tidy and lovely.
[20:22] <popey> get you with your unicode
[20:22] <topyli> been a long day but here's a wiki page for a start https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JuhaSiltala
[20:23] <topyli> i've been around forever in ubuntu-time, since the beginning. my contributions are mainly in irc support - for the first couple of years in #ubuntu, then in my local #ubuntu-fi. i'm a well known "linux person" in finland (some circles anyway)  and a very active advocate in my work as an academic, even though this work is more general than specific to ubuntu
[20:23] <Seveas> popey, ascii doesn't have an 'infinity' symbol, so I have to make do :)
[20:23] <topyli>  i'm a board member of the finnish national flug.  i'm a member of the irc operators team, and try to introduce the community spirit and norms to newbies on -offtopic channels, both main and local
[20:23] <forumsmatthew> topyli, in your happy face picture you are wearing a hat that looks Moroccan, have you been there?
[20:23] <topyli> s/flug/lug :)
[20:23]  * popey chuckles at 'flug'
[20:24] <topyli> forumsmatthew, i think i bought it in seville
[20:24]  * stgraber waves
[20:24] <popey> \o/ starcraft-ntbk
[20:24] <popey> er
[20:24] <popey> stgraber:
[20:24] <stgraber> sorry for being late, just got some stuff delivered at home and had to help unload
[20:24] <starcraft-ntbk> who what?
[20:24] <Seveas> hey stgraber
[20:24] <jussi01> A huge +1 for topyli from me, a valuable contributor in #ubuntu-offtopic, being an op in there is a tough job, but he does it with compassion and grace. His contributions in #ubuntu-fi dont go unnoticed either.
[20:24] <popey> starcraft-ntbk: back to sleep
[20:24] <forumsmatthew> yay, stgraber
[20:24] <starcraft-ntbk> bah, everyone tab fails me ><
[20:24] <Mamarok> I strongly support topylis application, he does an incredible amount of work in 24 hours, one wonders if he ever sleeps. We need more people like him
[20:24] <Seveas> stgraber, you're not too late: lots more people coming up, we're grilling topyli now
[20:25] <jussi01> Seveas: can I have a bite when the grillings done? :D
[20:25] <popey> markvandenborre: you still here?
[20:25] <Mamarok> jussi01: behave ;)
[20:25] <markvandenborre> yes, but not for long, sorry
[20:25] <topyli> jussi01, we can talk about it later :)
[20:25] <Mamarok> new members are not for eating
[20:26] <markvandenborre> +1 from me
[20:26] <popey> stgraber: you ready to vote now you're here?
[20:26] <Seveas> forumsmatthew, stgraber?
[20:26] <markvandenborre> popey: and unfortunately, I'll have to go
[20:26] <forumsmatthew> based on the testimonials, +1
[20:26] <popey> no worries markvandenborre
[20:26] <Pici> topyli gets a definite +1 from me.  I may have been bribed with a promise of a new tales from the offtopic.
[20:26] <markvandenborre> see you all, and good luck to the candidates!
[20:26] <forumsmatthew> see you, markvandenborre
[20:26] <stgraber> +1 (testimonials, wiki page, ...)
[20:26] <popey> yay
[20:27] <Seveas> that's +5, welcome aboard!
[20:27] <jussi01> Congrats topyli!
[20:27] <MenZa> huzzah! and now, grilled topyli for all!
[20:27] <Pici> yay!
[20:27] <Seveas> czam, you're up
[20:27] <MenZa> Congrats topyli - very much deserved :)
[20:27] <czam> ok
[20:27] <Mamarok> congratulations, topyli!!
[20:27]  * popey adds topyli to ~ubuntumembers
[20:27] <fagan_> topyli congrats
[20:27] <czam> Hi everyone ;)  this is mi wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/czam/
[20:27] <Seveas> MenZa, behave. You'll be charred in a bit.
[20:27] <Pici> topyli: congrats :D
[20:27] <topyli> whee! thanks for your confidence all
[20:27] <czam> mi name is Carlos Andres Zambrano, I'm a GNU/linux user since 2004
[20:27] <czam> I give support in the channel #ubuntu-co, in launchpad and mailing lists as ubuntu-es, ubuntu-co and for some days in the ubuntu-ar.
[20:28] <czam> also actively participates promotional events in my Local team such as conferences, installation, SFD, UGJ and Release Party
[20:28] <czam> I want to become an official translator into Spanish of Ubuntu
[20:28] <czam> I'd like to help schools to implement Edubuntu with LSTP
[20:28] <popey> http://picasaweb.google.es/czam01/SOftwareFreedomDayBogota2009#5383736714099226002   I don't think you could fit any more in there :)
[20:28] <czam> Currently i'm working in Industrias Proton in which I'm migrating to Ubuntu 8.04 (hardy Heron),
[20:29] <popey> http://picasaweb.google.es/czam01/SOftwareFreedomDayBogota2009#5383736720503829618   Ubuntu stand in 'Busier than mandriva stand' non-shocker! :)
[20:29] <czam> popey, that picture was in SFD 2009
[20:29] <popey> looks like you had a lot of interest?
[20:29] <IngForigua> Lol
[20:29] <hollman> Ubuntu stand in 'Busier than mandriva stand' non-shocker! :) ---> yeah :D
[20:30] <Seveas> czam, when did you start actively contributing to ubuntu?
[20:30] <czam> Seveas, since 2007 when I Satrted with feisty
[20:31]  * Ioneye thinks why he is here...
[20:31] <forumsmatthew> lots of launchpad answers and karma for doing so, as well as translation activity
[20:31] <itnet7> congrats topyli (sorry out of the area for a sec!)
[20:32] <Seveas> czam, I find 2 testimonials a bit thin for over years of contributions
[20:32] <Seveas> Do you think you can gather a few more?
[20:32] <czam> Seveas, off course ;)
[20:33] <Seveas> czam, good, then I'm going to say -1 for now and hope you come to the next meeting with some more testimonials (unless the others vote +1, in which case you can ignore me :))
[20:34] <czam> Seveas ok I hope so
[20:34] <forumsmatthew> I'm borderline and am going to give a +0 (that will easily turn in to a +1 with more testimonials)
[20:34] <popey> I'm agreed with forumsmatthew, for now +0.5, nearly +1, but if you can get a few more testimonials that would be great
[20:35] <forumsmatthew> I wasn't aware we could give fractional amounts... :)
[20:35] <stgraber> I'm going to follow forumsmatthew and popey on this one, come back with a few more testimonials and that'll be a +1, for now +0.
[20:36] <popey> and keep up the great work czam !
[20:36] <czam> ok popey
[20:36] <Seveas> ok, see you next time czam!
[20:36] <forumsmatthew> I look forward to your return
[20:36] <Seveas> IngForigua, you're up
[20:36] <IngForigua> hi
[20:36] <IngForigua> Good evening, my name is Diego forigua ( https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ingforigua ) ( https://launchpad.net/~ingforigua ) I'm electronic engineer, I'm GNU/linux user since 2004, i used Fedora core 2, Suse 9, red hat 9, i knew ubuntu 2006 (ubuntu 6.06 LTS) and it's my favorite GNU/linux distro
[20:36] <itnet7> czam awesome contributions so far!! keep up the good work!
[20:37] <IngForigua> I'm member of member of the council of Ubuntu-co, i give support at IRC in spanish, lauchpad and mailing lists, i help with answers and translations for ubuntu
[20:37] <IngForigua> my future plans for ubuntu
[20:37] <IngForigua> Continue contributing with Ubuntu (translations, bug report, give answers).
[20:37] <MagicFab> IngForigua rocks - *and* he asks/listens a lot for advice :)
[20:38] <IngForigua> i'll participate in my Loco team, help translate to Spanish documents, continue to give presentations (conferences) and active member of ubuntu. Help migrate my university to ubuntu from my research groups, EIDOS and Soliun
[20:38] <IngForigua> I love ubuntu :)
[20:38] <IngForigua> thanks Magicfab
[20:39] <Seveas> IngForigua, czam: you're both in the colombian team, why didn't you leave a testimonial for each other?
[20:39] <IngForigua> I work in venezuela team an ecuador team
[20:40] <czam> we are close friends, but as we know the testimoniasl is only for Ubuntu Member
[20:40] <IngForigua> they can give me a testimonial of my work with ubuntu
[20:40]  * czam supports ingforigua
[20:40] <Seveas> czam, no, everyboty can write something to support prospective members, not just existing members
[20:40] <MagicFab> Seveas, it's a bit against our culture to recognize each others work too.
[20:41]  * hollman support tooo mucho IngForigua he and czam are among the most active members in our team !!
[20:41] <hollman> **much
[20:41] <czam> we don't know that, because we're very actively in Colombian Loco Team
[20:41] <Seveas> just curious: why did you come to the EMEA meeting instead of the Americas meeting?
[20:42]  * cleon recognizes IngForigua as an active member of Ubuntu colombian team in different events and isssues at an IRC chan
[20:42] <IngForigua> clean tanks
[20:42] <IngForigua> cleon thanks
[20:42] <czam> Seveas, that its beacuse we want to become in a oficial ubuntu member before this year finishes
[20:43] <fmolinero> I recognize the great job of IngForigua bringing suggestion in spanish translation
[20:43] <IngForigua> My team (i'm member of council ubuntu-co) is the most active
[20:43] <Seveas> czam, well, to be honest I don't see that happening. For IngForigua I also want to see more testimonials on his wikipage. I find it too hard to judge his contribution properly as it is now. -1
[20:43] <forumsmatthew> Based on the testimony of MagicFab, I am willing to +1 IngForigua
[20:44] <forumsmatthew> while having more on the wiki would be nice, he does have a pretty nice cheer squad with him today
[20:44] <IngForigua> forumsmatthew thanks
[20:45] <popey> hmm
[20:45] <MagicFab> Seveas, I regularly and consistently see IngForigua in Answers and IRC. he's very active. Testimonials are fine but karma and other info in his wiki should help see through that.
[20:45] <IngForigua> Seveas many people helps me, but i only have testimonials of ubuntu members
[20:45] <forumsmatthew> I do understand the concern that Seveas is expressing, though
[20:46] <MagicFab> And their local work at events is incredible. I see the organizing skills and patience it requires and IngForigua *gets it*. We need more like him.
[20:46] <popey> I'm going to +1 because I trust MagicFab's judgement
[20:46] <Seveas> MagicFab, the wikipage doesn't do it for me. It doesn't give any details about contributions to e.g. flisol. Just a few lines would do but it only lists the event
[20:47] <IngForigua> popey thanks
[20:47] <MagicFab> Well, all the links point to pictures he's taken as organizer and participant
[20:47] <Seveas> stgraber, your vote?
[20:48] <IngForigua> seveas I participate in many research groups, just to name the most important
[20:48] <MagicFab> But yes, point taken, I personally reviewed his page (yes, he even asked for that) and we both overlooked that important detail. FLISOL is a huge, known event but yes it need proper linking.
[20:48] <IngForigua> i help with ubuntu mirror in colombia
[20:49] <Seveas> MagicFab, don't forget that you've come to the EMEA board, not a local board. I for one do not know FLISOL.
[20:49] <IngForigua> http://matematicas.unal.edu.co/ubuntu/
[20:49] <Seveas> stgraber, are you still with us?
[20:49] <IngForigua> it is oficial mirror
[20:49] <MagicFab> Seveas, correct, I am actually agreeing those links are missing.
[20:50] <Seveas> hmm, looks like stgraber(s connection) has gone walkies. I don't really like to continue with only three board members.
[20:51] <forumsmatthew> unfortunately, I'm going to have to leave shortly as well
[20:51] <stgraber> just got back
[20:51] <Seveas> ah nice
[20:51] <forumsmatthew> good
[20:51] <stgraber> quickly going through the backlog, give me 30s
[20:51] <IngForigua> stgraber ok
[20:52] <Seveas> MagicFab, another important thing: due to czam and IngForigua not being properly prepared we lost a lot of time. This is why preparation is important. There are a lot of people in the list for this meeting and now it looks like we have to disappoint a few.
[20:53] <stgraber> Although I trust MagicFab's judgement, I'd rather see a more detailed wiki page and updated testimonials. -1 for now, will be glad to see both of IngForigua and czam again and change that for a +1.
[20:54] <Ioneye> Seveas: patient is bliss ;)
[20:54] <Seveas> ok, so that's +0, IngForigua please prepare your wikipage better for next time, see you soon!
[20:54] <Seveas> ebel, you're up
[20:54] <ebel> Hi
[20:54] <tdr112> good luck ebel
[20:54] <czajkowski> whoooo
[20:54] <IngForigua> Seveas my wiki page is ready
[20:54] <popey> keep up the great work IngForigua
[20:54]  * Mean-Machine is here to support ebel \o/
[20:54] <declanmg> go ebel!
[20:54] <fagan_> o/*
[20:54] <lau1> best of luck ebel
[20:54] <ebel> I'm Rory McCann and this is my first time here
[20:54] <ebel> My wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/rorymcc
[20:54] <airurando> best of luck ebel
[20:55] <ebel> (cheers guys :) )
[20:55] <slashtom> good luck ebel
[20:55] <ebel> I'm from Dublin, Ireland, and I'm the point of contact for the ubuntu-ie loco
[20:55]  * MagicFab whips the horse
[20:55] <czam> ok see you next time
[20:55] <MagicFab> Thanks for your time, we'll come back.
[20:55] <forumsmatthew> MagicFab, please do so :)
[20:55] <ebel> I've been helping run events (from bug jams to release parties to regular monthly pub meets)
[20:56] <popey> i like the testimonials there
[20:56] <ebel> I've been chairing ubuntu-ie IRC meetings for a while now.
[20:56] <Seveas> +1 for ebel, that's an awesome list of contributions, also well documented and with testimonials
[20:56] <ebel> I've also been a camara volunteer, teaching about ubuntu and linux in african schools
[20:56] <forumsmatthew> easy +1
[20:56] <popey> yeah, +1 here too
[20:56] <ebel> aswell as providing some custom installers and tech support for camara
[20:57] <stgraber> ah, that's easy: +1
[20:57] <czajkowski> yay!
[20:57] <Seveas> ok, +4, welcome aboard!
[20:57] <fagan_> congrats ebel
[20:57] <Mean-Machine> yea! well done ebel! congrats!
[20:57] <airurando> Well Done Ebel!!!! Whoooooo!!!
[20:57] <itnet7> congrats ebel!!! Go ubuntu-ie!!!
[20:57]  * czajkowski gives ebel a great big hug!!!
[20:57] <ebel> aw cool :)
[20:57] <slashtom> well done ebel
[20:57] <Seveas> declanmg, you're up
[20:57] <lau1> well done
[20:57]  * popey adds ebel to ~ubuntumembers
[20:57] <tdr112> well done ebel
[20:57] <declanmg> Hi folks, my name is Declan McGrath. I'm a Dublin-based Kubuntu fan and Ruby developer.
[20:57] <Mean-Machine> C'mon Ireland!
[20:57] <ebel> :D
[20:57] <fagan_> thats 5 members for -ie now :)
[20:57] <declanmg> Been turning up to the Linux and Ubuntu Dublin meetups for the best part of 2 years now in search of Free Beer :-)
[20:57] <Seveas> forumsmatthew, how much time do you have?
[20:57] <declanmg> My wiki page is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/declanmg
[20:57] <airurando> good luck declanmg
[20:57] <forumsmatthew> If it is quick, I think I can hang in for one more application
[20:57]  * Mean-Machine is here to support declanmg \o/
[20:57] <ebel> good luck declanmg
[20:58] <declanmg> thanks guys!
[20:58] <lau1> best of luck declanmg
[20:58] <czajkowski> declanmg: we're rooting for you
[20:58] <declanmg> I've been involved on the development side of Ubuntu a little, most recently with the bazaar source control system.
[20:58] <declanmg> My name aim is to try and get as many developers in Ireland into FOSS development.
[20:58] <Seveas> hmm, ruby programmer, -1
[20:58] <declanmg> I've been trying podcasting, giving programming lessons and generally any trick I can think of! But those Ubuntu UK Podcasters have the market sown up :-)
[20:58] <popey> haha
[20:58] <popey> dont you believe it!
[20:58] <Seveas> (just kidding, but I've been fighting ruby too much lately...)
[20:58] <declanmg> and a little python :-)
[20:58]  * fagan_ forgot to give a testimonial for declanmg 
[20:59] <czajkowski> Seveas: lordie! what a heart attack to give someone! :p
[20:59] <Seveas> czajkowski, what would you say is declanmg's most valuable contribution to date?
[20:59] <forumsmatthew> again, well done with the testimonials!
[20:59] <declanmg> thanks forumsmatthew
[20:59] <czajkowski> Seveas: he just turns up and starts helping out, I don't need to ask him to do anything
[20:59] <Riddell> declanmg: how can Kubuntu and LoCos work better together?
[20:59] <czajkowski> Seveas: he;s also quick to take pointers and get people motivated
[21:00] <popey> uhoh, someone woke the Riddell
[21:00] <Seveas> ooh, nice question Riddell, that's something we have problems with here in NL as well
[21:00] <declanmg> Riddell: I think currently it works fine.
[21:00] <declanmg> What I really want to do is...
[21:01] <Riddell> it does?  we (kubuntu devs) don't do anything with locos
[21:01] <popey> we're over-running and there's a cc meeting up next
[21:01] <declanmg> ... get the the python guys i know into  ubuntu development
[21:01] <Seveas> ok, finishing up then, +1 for declanmg
[21:01] <FFEMTcJ> cc isn't for another hour isnt it?
[21:01] <forumsmatthew> +1
[21:02] <forumsmatthew> and I'm afraid that with that, I need to leave
[21:02] <MenZa> FFEMTcJ: correct
[21:02] <popey> +1 also
[21:02] <popey> declanmg: feel free to ping me if you want to talk about podcasting :)
[21:02] <declanmg> Riddell: i feel that there is always a good kubuntu representation here on the dublin scene
[21:02] <stgraber> +1
[21:02] <czajkowski> whooo another Irish Ubuntu Member, great stuff outta declanmg and ebel tonight :D
[21:02] <fagan_> congrats declanmg
[21:02] <Seveas> that's +4, welcome aboard!
[21:02] <Mean-Machine> declanmg: congrats! now party time in #ubuntu-ie \o/
[21:02] <ebel> :D
[21:02] <forumsmatthew> best wishes all
[21:02] <Seveas> BlackZ, Ioneye, FFEMTcJ, asanchez, MenZa: looks like we'll have to disappoint you for now. Please come to the next meeting!
[21:02] <ebel> congrats declanmg
[21:02] <MenZa> Seveas: Shall do.
[21:02] <declanmg> popey: cheers. will do.
[21:02] <fagan_> thats 6 -ie ubuntu members awesome
[21:02] <lau1> congrats declanmg
[21:02] <airurando> Brillian.t congrats declanmg
[21:02]  * popey adds declanmg to ~ubuntumembers
[21:02] <declanmg> thanks guys!
[21:03] <Ioneye> it's ok Seveas :)
[21:03] <declanmg> much appreciated!
[21:03] <itnet7> congrats declanmg !!
[21:03] <Mamarok> congratulations declanmg :)
[21:03] <fagan_> :)
[21:03]  * czajkowski loves her Irish LoCo 
[21:03] <BlackZ> Seveas, ok.
[21:03] <Seveas> MenZa, oh, and remind me to write something on your wikipage :)
[21:03] <popey> pleia2 / Technoviking / sabdfl when's this cc meeting? dholbach said 21:00 UTC to me
[21:03] <MenZa> Seveas: Appreciated. Will do :)
[21:03] <asanchez> thanks for your time everybody
[21:03] <Mean-Machine> Irish LoCo ROXX!
[21:03] <MenZa> popey: According to the Fridge calendar, another hour from now
[21:03] <pleia2> popey: it's in an hour, I think
[21:03] <MenZa> i.e. 22 UTC
[21:03] <popey> hmm
[21:03] <pleia2> yeah
[21:04] <pleia2> but maybe fridge is messed up :) it should be at 21:00
[21:04] <Seveas> popey, but without matthew there's only three of us, and it looks like I need to pop out as well
[21:04]  * fagan_ needs to go good job guys and gals
[21:04] <MenZa> Sort it out among yourselves; the plan was an hour's meeting, and, well, it is getting late in most timezones
[21:04] <mako> are you counting me?
[21:04] <mako> MenZa: where most is european/african?  :)
[21:05]  * MenZa hates having his planning screwed up, so completely understands the decision to #endmeeting
[21:06] <popey> so i guess dholbach just messed his time up
[21:06] <MenZa> night all - and congrats to all who were picked :)
[21:07] <Seveas> night MenZa
[21:07] <popey> s/were picked/earned it/ :)
[21:07] <pleia2> popey: it should be now, the fridge is wrong
[21:07] <popey> ah
[21:07] <MenZa> Well, one is picked, *if* one has earned it, aye popey?
[21:07] <Technoviking> The fridge is never wrong
[21:07] <Technoviking> :)
[21:07] <popey> ALL HAIL THE FRIDGE!
[21:07] <popey> etc
[21:07] <MenZa> Language barrier + fatigue = bad outcome
[21:08] <pleia2> fridge gets confused by DST :\
[21:08] <popey> ok, so cc'ers are back in 50 mins ya?
[21:08] <Seveas> ALL HAIL THE BEER IN THE FRIDGE
[21:08] <mako> yeah, i can be back in 50
[21:09] <popey> thanks mako
[21:09] <Ioneye> so the meeting for the EMEA is over?
[21:09] <popey> yes
[21:09] <pleia2> popey: yep
[21:10] <popey> maybe we should schedule another EMEA for 2 weeks time
[21:10] <popey> Seveas: i see you removed czam and IngForigua from the emea wiki page...
[21:10] <Technoviking> so CC in 50 mins
[21:10] <popey> should we not leave them on for next meet
[21:11] <popey> yes Technoviking
[21:11] <Seveas> popey, we haven't done that for the last few months
[21:11] <IngForigua> Sorry
[21:11] <Seveas> (iirc)
[21:11] <popey> oh
[21:11] <IngForigua> Seveas thanks
[21:11] <IngForigua> Goodbye
[21:12] <MenZa> popey: I was rejected back when CC took care of membership applications; I didn't return the following month, instead deciding I'd keep my contributions going for a while longer before re-applying
[21:12] <MenZa> (so, now)
[21:13] <Seveas> popey, I'm all for an extra meeting in 2 weeks time
[21:13] <Seveas> stgraber?
[21:13] <popey> cool
[21:13] <Seveas> ok, need to leave now
[21:13] <Seveas> bye!
[21:13] <MenZa> I trust this'll be added to the Fridge if one is planned, popey?
[21:14] <MenZa> Seveas: night!
[21:14] <popey> yup
[21:14] <MenZa> excellent
[21:20] <nizarus> the cc meeting is over ?
[21:20] <popey> cc in 40 mins
[21:21] <nizarus> hi popey
[21:21] <jarlen> hm, I didn't even get the chance to impress with the picture of MenZa playing chess in a roller coaster :/
[21:21]  * nizarus still waiting for popey replay to my mail (you remember)
[21:33] <popey> erk, really?
[22:02] <Technoviking> hello
[22:02] <popey> Hi!
[22:02] <pleia2> hi
[22:02] <Raidsong> howdy
[22:03] <Technoviking> is mako and mario around?
[22:04] <popey> just poked superm1
[22:04] <mako> i'm around
[22:07] <drubin> meeting
[22:07] <drubin> ?
[22:08] <pleia2> drubin: CC meeting, just gathering folks
[22:08] <drubin> pleia2: I thought it was a beginners meeting.
[22:08] <pleia2> drubin: that's being held over in -beginners
[22:08] <drubin> they are both scheduled for 22:00 guess we moving to #ubuntu-beginners
[22:09] <mako> seems to be scheduled for the same time :)
[22:09] <drubin> no worries we have another channel.
[22:17] <popey> not looking good
[22:17] <pleia2> shame
[22:17] <mako> so we have a pretty short aenda?
[22:17] <pleia2> yeah
[22:17] <mako> what is the problem
[22:18] <pleia2> folks we need to discuss agenda items with aren't around
[22:19] <Technoviking> we could discuss and vote on the Dell blog on the Planet on the mailing list
[22:19] <popey> we're not quorate though are we?
[22:19] <popey> so can't realistically vote
[22:24] <mako> popey: well, i'd be happy to talk about the dell blog
[22:24] <mako> or we can do it over email
[22:24] <popey> I'm easy.
[22:24] <mako> yeah, lets do it over email them and then publish something
[22:24] <pleia2> sounds good
[22:24] <popey> ok
[22:24] <mako> it's just important that it happens
[22:24] <popey> indeed
[22:24] <mako> since we have a policy that corporate blogs aren't supposed to be on unless they're discussed
[22:25] <Technoviking> anyone else got anything for the CC
[22:25] <mako> yeah, we're all here
[22:25] <mako> FSVO all :)
[22:25] <Technoviking> Has Dell been removed for the planet feed for now?
[22:25]  * popey had to google fsvo :)
[22:25] <popey> no
[22:25] <popey> the feed is still there
[22:26] <Technoviking> I will remove it till we have a change to discuss
[22:28] <mako> Technoviking: awesome, thanks
[22:31] <Technoviking> done and done
[22:31] <superm1> popey, Daviey i'm here
[22:31] <superm1> hopefully not too late?
[22:31] <popey> hi superm1
[22:32] <popey> we've removed the rss feed for the dell blog from the ubuntu planet subject to it being discussed by the cc
[22:32] <superm1> isn't that what's on this meeting's agenda?
[22:33] <popey> yes, but that discussion hasn't happened yet
[22:33] <popey> before you arrived we decided to take the discussion to the mailing list given the required people weren't here
[22:34] <superm1> what kind of discussion does there need to be?
[22:34] <popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlanetUbuntu#Corporate%20Blogs
[22:34] <popey> well the criteria is detailed on that page
[22:34] <popey> i guess the most pertinent one is "the CommunityCouncil must give permission "
[22:35] <popey> the rest seem to be pretty well covered :)
[22:36] <popey> does that sound fair?
[22:37]  * Daviey feels it's a shame that it won't be discussed in the open.
[22:37] <pleia2> now that superm1 is here, do we want to?
[22:38] <pleia2> we don't have quorum to vote, but it can be discussed
[22:38] <popey> I'm happy to
[22:39] <pleia2> given the criteria for corporate blogs, I think dell's blog is acceptable
[22:41] <popey> heh, I agree
[22:41] <Technoviking> i agree also
[22:42] <popey> mako: ?
[22:48] <Technoviking> apparently mako has left the building
[22:48] <popey> uh-huh-huh
[22:48] <pleia2> is there anyone who would like to raise any objections for us to concider?
[22:48] <pleia2> consider too, need sleeep
[22:49] <popey> the only objection I have seen is a misguided blog post
[22:51] <superm1> which one?
[22:51] <superm1> there's a team of probably about 10 people who can comment to that blog, but the only stuff that should be showing up there is consumer linux related things
[22:52] <popey> hmm, cant find it now
[22:53] <popey> we (ubuntu uk podcast) have a feed on the planet, which I'll grant you isnt corporate, but equally isn't an individual. We as a group decided that only those of us who are Ubuntu members (thats me and Daviey) should hit the button that posts to the planet
[22:54] <popey> the only concern I have is that there may be people who a) haven't signed the CoC, b) aren't members, may post to that blog
[22:54] <popey> in our case it's technically possible for non-members to post to the planet (from the podcast feed) we don't do it as a matter of principle
[22:55] <superm1> "# the company must have at least one Ubuntu member who can take responsibility for the blog "
[22:55] <popey> exactly
[22:55] <superm1> so that's me
[22:55] <popey> but any of the 10 could post
[22:56] <popey> fact is though as a corporate blog I'm guessing that your internal controls would prevent any of those 10 doing something monumentally stupid :)
[22:56] <superm1> no, there's actually a peer review process for any blog post
[22:56] <popey> and you hit the final button?
[22:57] <superm1> i'm generally one of the peers who sees it, but lionel manchaca (sp) makes the final call
[22:57] <Technoviking> superm1: can your blog you tags and only allow post tag Ubuntu to the planet, and you would be the one to add that tag?
[22:57] <superm1> he's the big social guy for dell, and manages the presence on blogs, twitter, fb
[22:58] <popey> Technoviking: it's tagged "Linux"
[22:58] <popey> which seems sensible to me
[22:58] <popey> http://en.community.dell.com/blogs/direct2dell/archive/tags/Linux/default.aspx
[22:59] <superm1> there might be a moblin or chrome thing that comes up every so often, but that's all ubuntu based anyway
[22:59] <popey> .. and I'd say is interesting to the audience of planet ubuntu
[22:59] <popey> (although everyone has their own opinion on that)
[23:00] <Technoviking> superm1: can you pull the plug on a post if you think the Ubuntu community would not be interested
[23:01] <Technoviking> or does what Lionel say goes
[23:01] <superm1> posts can be pulled
[23:01] <superm1> but they would be pulled from the blog as a whole, not just from planet syndication
[23:02] <popey> Ok, so those of us here seem to agree that the dell blog is a +1 for inclusion on the planet
[23:02] <popey> I'll mail this log to the cc and see if we can get a quick +1/-1 from everyone and re-enable the blog promptly
[23:02] <popey> that sound okay?
[23:03] <popey> I doubt there will be much in the way of discussion, so Davieys concerns about open discussion shouldn't manifest
[23:03] <pleia2> thanks popey
[23:04] <Technoviking> I'm still +1 if superm1 does see the posts first
[23:04] <popey> sure, me too
[23:04] <popey> so thats 3 of the 8 members of the cc, but that's not really enough
[23:05] <popey> that okay superm1 ?
[23:05] <popey> Daviey: ?
[23:05] <superm1> sounds fine to me
[23:06] <popey> Daviey is clearly busy upgrading his htc handset to android 2.1
[23:09] <popey> sent
[23:12] <Technoviking> ok, is there anything else for the CC
[23:12] <popey> no
[23:12] <Daviey> popey: heh
[23:12] <superm1> okay thanks guys, cya
[23:14] <Technoviking> ok, I think we will see people in two weeks
[23:15] <Daviey> sounds good to me \o/
[23:16] <Daviey> (the scrollback)
[23:26] <garrythefish> not enough real drilling
[23:26] <garrythefish> that's what's the problem with the lesbos at #ubuntu-women
[23:26] <Daviey> !ops | garrythefish
[23:27] <garrythefish> bye