[15:01] <dpm> hi everyone
[15:03] <dpm> anyone here for the translations meeting?
[15:05] <dholbach> dpm: isn't that in an hour? :)
[15:06] <dpm> dholbach, it's 15:00 UTC, but we don't seem to have many translations people today...
[15:06] <dpm> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar
[15:06] <dholbach> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar says 16 utc
[15:06] <czajkowski> the fridge calender seems to be acting up
[15:09] <dpm> I'll check again, otherwise I'll have another go in an hour :)
[15:13] <dpm> ah well...
[16:03] <dpm> right, second try, this time at the right time
[16:03] <dpm> hi all
[16:03] <popey> :)
[16:04] <dpm> let's see if we've got any translations people here today
[16:06] <janpogocki> hello :)
[16:06] <janpogocki> i translated ubuntu 9.04 and 9.10, but very little
[16:07] <dpm> hi janpogocki
[16:07] <janpogocki> to polish of course ;)
[16:07] <dpm> welcome
[16:07] <adiroiban> sorry. I'm late
[16:08] <dpm> no worries adiroiban, we don't seem to have many l10n folks today
[16:08] <adiroiban> maybe we can have the meetings on #ubuntu-translators
[16:09] <dpm> I'm not sure this would change things, though
[16:09] <janpogocki> but what about is this meeting 'ubuntu translations'?
[16:09] <adiroiban> :)
[16:09] <dpm> anyway, shall we get started?
[16:09] <adiroiban> i'm ready
[16:09] <janpogocki> ok
[16:10] <dpm> janpogocki, the Ubuntu translations team has monthly meetings -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Meetings
[16:10] <dpm> janpogocki, here's the agenda for today -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Meetings/2009-12-03
[16:10] <janpogocki> ok, i'm going to reading that (or I gonna ;)
[16:10] <dpm> anyway, let's get started :)
[16:11] <dpm> #startmeeting
[16:11] <MootBot> Meeting started at 10:11. The chair is dpm.
[16:11] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:11] <dpm> [TOPIC] Review of actions from previous meeting
[16:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review of actions from previous meeting
[16:12] <janpogocki> i wasn't month ago :(
[16:12] <dpm> basically we'd like to see how are we doing in terms of the actions we talked about on the previous meeting
[16:12] <dpm> janpogocki, don't worry
[16:13] <dpm> :-)
[16:13] <dpm> Contact the QA team to check out the wording and the procedure description for reporting translation bugs (dpm)
[16:14] <dpm> I did contact the QA team, but I haven't received much feedback on that section. Today I was talking to some of them on #ubuntu-bugs, and I've changed some things
[16:14] <dpm> after their comments
[16:15] <dpm> but it basically is the content adiroiban already put in there -> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs#Filing%20translation%20bugs
[16:15] <adiroiban> ok. I think we can fix the text on the go
[16:15] <dpm> So I think we should be good to go there
[16:15] <adiroiban> as we feel the need
[16:16] <dpm> adiroiban, the next action was for you "Create a HandlingBugs wiki page (adiroiban)", and I know you've created that already and done some great work on it
[16:16] <adiroiban> then ... checked :)
[16:16] <dpm> :-)
[16:16] <adiroiban> well I'm not happy with with HandlingBugs
[16:17] <dpm> in which sense?
[16:17] <adiroiban> I still need to do more work on handling bugs and then write some best practices
[16:18] <adiroiban> but we have the page... and we can update it
[16:18] <dpm> adiroiban, yes, I see. But basically I think we are on a good start. We can ask questions at #ubuntu-bugs regarding the workflow and practices
[16:18] <dpm> today being Translations Hug Day
[16:20] <dpm> anyway, the next action was on me: "Investigate how adding the Ubuntu Translations project RSS feed to Planet Ubuntu can be done - just adding the feed to the planet's config file?"
[16:20] <adiroiban> ok. we can continue with the next topic
[16:20] <dpm> I haven't had the chance to look into that yet
[16:20] <dpm> but I'll try to do it this week
[16:20] <adiroiban> np
[16:21] <dpm> ok, next, then...
[16:21] <dpm> [TOPIC] Review of pending actions on the switch to restricted permission policy
[16:21] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review of pending actions on the switch to restricted permission policy
[16:21] <dpm> Now that the switch to restricted has been done
[16:22] <dpm> I'd like to check all additional steps
[16:22] <dpm> are documented and done
[16:22] <dpm> to announce it
[16:22] <dpm> It's basically https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTranslationsCoordinators/OngoingProjects/SwitchToRestricted#Actions
[16:23] <adiroiban> I tried to improve the way Launchpad inform translators about current permission bug 490929
[16:23] <adiroiban> this can help in explaining translators why they can not translate in languages without a translation team
[16:24] <dpm> adiroiban, oh I see, you mean we could reuse your explanation for that
[16:24] <adiroiban> nope.
[16:25] <adiroiban> just that those changes can help if someone is "lost in translation" and don't know why they can no longer tranlate into their language
[16:26] <dpm> I see - so implementing that feature would also help informing translators without a team in ubuntu-translators
[16:26] <adiroiban> that's what I hope :)
[16:26] <dpm> :-)
[16:27] <janpogocki> but i was translating ubuntu without any team, so where's problem?
[16:27] <dpm> adiroiban, do you want to add a comment regarding this under "Discuss what to do with existing translations of languages without a team."?
[16:28] <dpm> janpogocki, that's not a problem at all
[16:28] <janpogocki> so what?
[16:28] <dpm> only that if you are not a member of a team you can provide suggestions
[16:28] <dpm> and translation team members will then accept them
[16:28] <janpogocki> aha, i remeber
[16:28] <dpm> what we are discussing right now is a recent change in policy
[16:29] <janpogocki> tomasz dominikowski accepted my suggestions
[16:29] <adiroiban> dpm: don't know what to say :(
[16:30] <dpm> where previously some translators without a registered team for their language
[16:30] <dpm> col
[16:30] <dpm> could add translations directly
[16:30] <adiroiban> first, I would like to see a list of languages ... and how many new translations we have for each language in Ubuntu
[16:31] <dpm> janpogocki, this doesn't affect Polish, which has already a registered team
[16:31] <adiroiban> if there are many new translations for a langauge... maybe we would like to find a team, before changing all of them to suggestions
[16:32] <adiroiban> we still have ubuntu-l10n teams with open permissions....
[16:32] <janpogocki> it's about for example afrikaans? ;)
[16:32] <adiroiban> and for me this is like not having a reviewer team at all
[16:33] <janpogocki> and other languages which hasn't got teams?
[16:33] <dpm> adiroiban, yeah, but open teams are a separate issue. We can concentrate on those when doing the work on policies in this cycle, for example
[16:34] <dpm> But I like your suggestions on the steps of 1) finding out these languages
[16:34] <adiroiban> dpm: i will leave those translations by now
[16:35] <dpm> 2) assigning them to a team if it exists
[16:35] <adiroiban> dpm: i can investigate on that... or ask one of rosetta admins to run a query on the db
[16:35] <adiroiban> and provide us with a raw data
[16:35] <adiroiban> and from that I can extract what we need
[16:36] <adiroiban> dpm: one idea (just an idea) would be to create those teams
[16:36] <dpm> adiroiban, do you want me to put an action for you on that? I can have a look into it as well
[16:36] <dpm> (on investigating the languages)
[16:37] <adiroiban> dpm: anything is ok :)
[16:37] <adiroiban> don't know
[16:37] <adiroiban> do as you think it is best
[16:38] <adiroiban> add me on that task
[16:38] <dpm> ok, thanks adiroiban
[16:38] <adiroiban> I will create the query and then just ask rosetta admin to run on the ubuntu data
[16:39] <dpm> [ACTION] Investigate on the teams affected by the switch to restricted (adiroiban)
[16:39] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Investigate on the teams affected by the switch to restricted (adiroiban)
[16:40] <dpm> I think for now I'll announce the change first
[16:41] <dpm> so looking at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTranslationsCoordinators/OngoingProjects/SwitchToRestricted#Actions
[16:41] <adiroiban> yes. just make sure the annoucement contains a note about contacting utc for addind missing teams
[16:41] <dpm> I'll do, thanks for the pointer
[16:42] <dpm> the next two pending items "Discuss what to do with existing translations of languages without a team. "
[16:42] <dpm> and "Let the Launchpad Translations team know about the decision and work with them to put it in place. "
[16:42] <dpm> we'll be discussing
[16:43] <dpm> as a result of your investigation
[16:43] <dpm> and the last one "Draft a ?policy on how teams can be added to the ubuntu-translators group. Provide relevant links in Launchpad to this document. "
[16:43] <dpm> I will take care of while working on the set of Ubuntu Translators policies
[16:44] <adiroiban> https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-translations/+faq/611
[16:44] <adiroiban> ?
[16:44] <adiroiban> just a not
[16:44] <adiroiban> note
[16:44] <adiroiban> to update ... or delete that FAQ when the policy is in place
[16:45] <dpm> good point, thanks
[16:45] <adiroiban> ...and maybe other related faqs
[16:45] <dpm> I think the FAQs we can keep
[16:45] <dpm> it's just that if they refer to a policy
[16:46] <dpm> we should include a link to the policy inside the FAQ
[16:47] <dpm> anyway, was there anything else on this topic?
[16:49] <adiroiban> hm.
[16:49] <adiroiban> if you have time please look at bug 490929
[16:49] <adiroiban> and see if the wording / explanations are ok
[16:50] <dpm> ok, I'll do that and give you some feedback
[16:50] <dpm> I'm not sure I'll get on to it today, but tomorrow should be fine
[16:51] <dpm> If that was all, I'll go quickly through the next topic
[16:51] <adiroiban> dpm: no hurry... those changes will be merged only strating from monday
[16:51] <adiroiban> yep
[16:52] <dpm> as the idea was to provide a summary on the translations discussion UDS for those folks interested but who couldn't attend
[16:53] <dpm> but as it seems that all participants in this meeting were there, we can simply go quickly through it :)
[16:53] <adiroiban> maybe you can send an email
[16:53] <adiroiban> ... but with low priority
[16:53] <adiroiban> :)
[16:54] <dpm> yeah :-)
[16:54] <dpm> anyway, I started a page collecting all the actions and session notes at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/Events/UDS/Lucid
[16:54] <adiroiban> i like that wikipage listing all UDS actions
[16:54] <dpm> great, I'm glad of that :)
[16:54] <adiroiban> i think we should link it from the header
[16:55] <adiroiban> it should be a busy page for us durring this cycle ;)
[16:55] <dpm> oh yeah ;)
[16:56] <dpm> My intention was to provide a summary of all sessions as well, but depending on time, I might just leave the session notes as they are and concentrate on the blueprints and specs
[16:56] <adiroiban> i saw you are also updating the whiteboard of blueprints ... but it looks to my like redundant
[16:56] <adiroiban> it i preffer keeping it on wiki
[16:56] <adiroiban> by linking the blueprints to this wikipage
[16:57] <dpm> yeah, I see some redundancy as well, but this cycle we are going to focus on blueprints and burn-down charts to track progress
[16:57] <adiroiban> on wiki we have these nice "checked" icons :)
[16:58] <adiroiban> I was thinking that it would be nice to have a page with all outstanding actions
[16:58] <dpm> and makes one feel good when using them and ticking things off the list :-)
[16:58] <adiroiban> not only with UDS...
[16:59] <adiroiban> right now we have actions on bugtracker (task tag), in wiki and on blueprints
[16:59] <dpm> I started doing that with the UTC team outstanding tasks -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTranslationsCoordinators#Ongoing%20projects
[17:01] <adiroiban> hm... so many pages
[17:01] <dpm> On Lucid, though, I'd like to concentrate on the specs from UDS and we'll also be using the charts to track progress -> http://piware.de/workitems/community/lucid/report.html
[17:02] <dpm> yeah, that should be a good topic for discussion on the ML or on the next meeting - decide on the way to track tasks
[17:02] <dpm> but for today I think we should leave it here
[17:02] <adiroiban> ok
[17:02] <dpm> or was there anything else?
[17:04] <dpm> ok, so I think we can leave it here. As usual, thanks a lot adiroiban for your participation, and also to those listening :)
[17:04] <dpm> #endmeeting
[17:04] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:04.
[22:00] <Technoviking> hello all
[22:01] <Technoviking> any other FC folks here yet?
[22:01] <jdong> hey guys
[22:02] <Technoviking> hey jdong
[22:02] <jdong> gimme 10 minutes to grab dinner and I'll be right back
[22:02] <Technoviking> ok
[22:02] <forestpiskie> 2 then :)
[22:03] <bodhi_zazen> yep
[22:03] <Technoviking> will have 3 in 10 minute, hopefully a forth will show
[22:15] <jdong> ok, I'm back :)
[22:15] <Technoviking> excellent
[22:16] <Technoviking> still don't have a forth for a quorum
[22:16] <bodhi_zazen> =(
[22:17] <jdong> indeed we dont'
[22:17] <jdong> haven't heard back from Matthew or Ryan yet
[22:17] <Technoviking> We can talk and post the logs for any votes we need though
[22:18] <jdong> indeed
[22:18] <Technoviking> #startmeeting
[22:18] <MootBot> Meeting started at 16:18. The chair is Technoviking.
[22:18] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[22:19] <Technoviking> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
[22:19] <Technoviking> first item, Ryan got all the info he needed during UDS for the Forums software upgrade
[22:20] <bodhi_zazen> w00t =)
[22:20] <jdong> awesome
[22:21] <Technoviking> I think he was going to put up a test environment soon, but he would have to speak aboout that
[22:21] <Technoviking> 2. Possible T&E team ...Pastebin Proposal and Staff thread and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/forestpixie/Sandbox
[22:22] <bodhi_zazen> Thank you, this is sort of an old item now, but both forestpiskie and Ms_Angel_D are here =)
[22:22] <jdong> *nods*
[22:22] <Ms_Angel_D> Hello
[22:22] <forestpiskie> o/
[22:23] <bodhi_zazen> I would hope the T&E team can help sort out people needing support from the others and (hopefully) reduce "trolling" in the T&E section
[22:24] <bodhi_zazen> At least we have a group of users willing to donate their time to do so =)
[22:24] <jdong> ok, so to clarify, the use case would be someone who, say,  tried Ubuntu, their wireless card doesn't work, post a 1 page tirade in T&E and it errupts in a flame war, right?
[22:25] <Ms_Angel_D> I don't know if I'm out of line in speaking but yes that is normally the case, we are hoping to cut down on such things
[22:25] <jdong> you are absolutely welcome to speak on this matter!
[22:26] <jdong> I don't think I have any fundamental objections to the motivation for creating a T&E team
[22:26] <bodhi_zazen> +1 jdong
[22:26] <Technoviking> My first question would be, do people fell that the T&E forum is still needed
[22:26] <jdong> the primary concern I'll express is whether or not angry users are going to respond positively to your valiant attempts
[22:26] <Ms_Angel_D> It's our hope that through positive postings as well as use of the reporting such threads more quickly will help to reduce the occurnce of such threads
[22:26] <Technoviking> It is an artifact of when Ubuntu was growing
[22:26] <forestpiskie> I would prefer to think that we can help redirect those actually wanting help to the proper place before it gets completely out of hand
[22:27] <jdong> I think when people post something negative in T&E instead of a frustrated ask for help in general support, it typically implies that they are not really interested in fixing anymore
[22:27] <forestpiskie> those just wanting to complain are going to do so anyway
[22:27] <jdong> have you guys been informally trying to conduct the job of the T&E team, and if so, is it successful?
[22:28] <bodhi_zazen> yes, they have an IRC channel, #ubuntu-testimonials
[22:28] <bodhi_zazen> as far as success Ms_Angel_D or forestpiskie  , any thoughts ?
[22:28] <Ms_Angel_D> Well we have been activily participating on the forums in an attempt to sway negative posts as well as activly reporting.
[22:29] <forestpiskie> some I think
[22:29] <Ms_Angel_D> I would say since the inception of the first disucssion T&E has calmed down quite a bit
[22:29] <forestpiskie> though it is hard to tell as it is rather cyclical
[22:29] <Ms_Angel_D> I personally don't notice half as many 10+ page threads as there once were
[22:31] <jdong> I'm not very familiar with the #ubuntu-testimonials members -- what is the relationship between #ubuntu-testimonials and what is on the ForumCouncilAgenda? Does #u-t cover the entire Ubuntu community or just the T&E forum on UF?
[22:32] <bodhi_zazen> I am willing to give it a chance and see if it can reduce the 10 + page ranting , rude responses, and actually redirect frustrated users to receive support
[22:32] <bodhi_zazen> just the T&E forum on the UF
[22:33] <jdong> and logistically and administratively, what would be required from the forums? Would the team require administrative powers within the T&E section?
[22:33] <jdong> stickying posts? locking threads?
[22:34] <bodhi_zazen> I do not think so jdong
[22:34] <forestpiskie> nope - just we wanted to bring it here before it went any further
[22:34] <bodhi_zazen> if they need things, forestpiskie can assist
[22:34] <Ms_Angel_D> I wouldn't even go that far I would just solid moderator backing would be find
[22:34] <Ms_Angel_D> *say
[22:34] <jdong> gotcha
[22:34] <Ms_Angel_D> *fine...lol typos
[22:35] <jdong> as bodhi_zazen said, I support the effort of the T&E team and am willing to give it a shot -- but I'd like a progress update of some sort in "the near future"
[22:35] <jdong> whatever is an appropriate timescale for "future"
[22:35] <Technoviking> jdong: +1
[22:36] <forestpiskie> before 10.04 perhaps
[22:36] <forestpiskie> that is before the next cycle begins :)
[22:37] <jdong> anytime you guys need to get back in touch with us if there's some way we can help, don't hesitate to place yourselves back on the agenda or mail the FC list,e tc
[22:37] <bodhi_zazen> how about if forestpiskie gives an update in a month ?
[22:37] <Ms_Angel_D> That should allow for plenty of time to see the effects
[22:38] <jdong> bodhi_zazen: +1. Even a "Yeah it's going well, progress is slow" is entirely fine, you guys don't have to solve all the world's problems in the next 6 months ;-)
[22:38] <forestpiskie> jdong: ok - fine by me
[22:39] <Ms_Angel_D> Thanks guys
[22:39] <bodhi_zazen> Thank you Ms_Angel_D
[22:39] <Technoviking> next item then?
[22:39] <Ms_Angel_D> My pleasure bodhi_zazen
[22:40] <bodhi_zazen> Technoviking: next item is kind of a done deal
[22:40] <bodhi_zazen> I closed the 64 bit forums and to my surprise there were minimal complaints =)
[22:40] <bodhi_zazen> perhaps archive the 64 bit section ?
[22:40] <bodhi_zazen> but I assume that is up to UG
[22:40] <jdong> when was it closed?
[22:41] <forestpiskie> I did see someone ask for a sticky to be moved from there
[22:41] <bodhi_zazen> Mid November jdong , Nov 17th
[22:41] <jdong> I think let's leave it there and inactive for at least a month or two...
[22:41] <jdong> at least give infrequent visitors a chance to react to it before it going *poof*
[22:41] <Technoviking> +1 for moving any important sticky
[22:41] <bodhi_zazen> Can users not see archived forums ?
[22:42] <Joeb454> forestpiskie: was it the flash & java guide that was in there?
[22:42] <forestpiskie> I think they can bodhi_zazen - I could
[22:42] <Technoviking> they can
[22:42] <jdong> it's just in a different place AFAIUI
[22:43] <bodhi_zazen> OK, thanks
[22:43] <forestpiskie> Joeb454: I think it was the flash one - at least it was oine of the 2 that had recent movement
[22:43] <jdong> ok, I don't think theres' gonna be anything controversial about the wrapup phase of closing 64-bit...
[22:43] <jdong> the remaining item on the agenda catches my eyes a lot more
[22:43] <bodhi_zazen> As far as I know the closure went very smooth, I received only 2 comments, 1 was a complaint, the other was a comment to move stickies
[22:43] <Technoviking> the flash problem maybe gone on Dec 8th
[22:44] <Joeb454> Technoviking: oh? howcome?
[22:44] <Technoviking> bodhi_zazen: some people want a forum for every thing:)
[22:44] <Joeb454> actually, probably best stick to the topic :)
[22:45] <bodhi_zazen> Indeed Technoviking
[22:45] <Technoviking> Joeb454: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1343694
[22:45] <Joeb454> thanks
[22:46] <Technoviking> any ccomment abot the Closure of the 64 bit forum?
[22:46] <jdong> Not from me
[22:46] <jdong> other than job well done :)
[22:47] <Technoviking> jdong: agreed, well done
[22:47] <Technoviking> next item
[22:47] <Technoviking> Make a video driver forum. See thread
[22:47] <Technoviking> is TormodVolden
[22:47] <Technoviking> is TormodVolden here?
[22:47] <Technoviking> Thread: TormodVolden
[22:48] <Technoviking> Thread: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1311004
[22:48] <Technoviking> that was covered last meeting also
[22:49] <Technoviking> whoops, time to clean the wiki
[22:49] <jdong> ok I guess I need to read the scrollback last meeting
[22:49] <jdong> oh wow
[22:49] <jdong> am I developing short term amnesia? :)
[22:50] <jdong> I'm definitely -1 on the idea of a new subforum for video drivers
[22:50] <bodhi_zazen> We already have Mulitmedia & Video =)
[22:50] <Technoviking> -1 from me also
[22:50] <jdong> but I do think right now it's not patently obvious where to place "X wont' start" kind of questions
[22:50] <bodhi_zazen> so I do not see a need for an additional forum
[22:50] <jdong> multimedia & video is the closest by long description
[22:50] <jdong> but perhaps the name of t hat subforum can be revised to make it more obvious
[22:51] <Technoviking> I think General Help is the best place
[22:51] <bodhi_zazen> +1
[22:51] <jdong> the thing is, either place it's put in I think ti'll receive plenty of attention
[22:51] <jdong> that the whole point of not segregating into so many subforums
[22:51] <bodhi_zazen> Failures of X are getting less frequent, but when they occur it is most often hardware dependent
[22:51] <jdong> pedantic categorization doesn't really help answer such questions any faster IMO
[22:51] <bodhi_zazen> IMO
[22:53] <Technoviking> Anything else?
[22:53] <jdong> I don't think so
[22:53] <bodhi_zazen> Ubuntu 10.04 FTW !!!
[22:54] <jdong> T&E should be propagated to the fc mailing list for a vote
[22:54] <Technoviking> ok, I updated the wiki, the next meeting will be jan 7th, same bat time, same bat chanel
[22:54] <jdong> and I'd expect us to be in agreement regarding the video driver subforum too
[22:54] <bodhi_zazen> http://sites.google.com/site/fishbulb1022/lucidlynx
[22:54] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://sites.google.com/site/fishbulb1022/lucidlynx
[22:56] <bodhi_zazen> Thanks Technoviking and jdong
[22:56] <Technoviking> Does someone want to compose the mail to the FC? I will do the monthly report
[22:56] <forestpiskie> thanks people :)
[22:56] <Technoviking> thanks all
[22:56] <jdong> I've unfortunately got to run to another meeting now
[22:56] <jdong> urgh I hate end of term at MIT
[22:56] <Technoviking> #endmeeting
[22:56] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:56.
[22:56] <bodhi_zazen> I can do the e-mail
[22:56] <Technoviking> bodhi_zazen: thanks
[22:57] <bodhi_zazen> NP
[22:57] <bodhi_zazen> Technoviking: now that the meeting is over, we could have discussed secretarial position / monthly report =)
[23:04] <Technoviking> bodhi_zazen: doh
[23:05] <bodhi_zazen> I will add it to the mailing