[12:22] <ckontros> Just a note: http://www.flickr.com/groups/ubuntustudio-artwork
[12:29] <thorwil> sad
[14:30] <mac_v> kwwii: hi... the gnome-icon-theme git , uses a red icon like >  (/) for edit-delete , but the Ubuntu version uses a trashcan? why is there a difference?
[14:30] <mac_v> or thorwil ^ ?
[22:08] <ckontros> http://www.gimpusers.com/tutorials/gimp-2-8-new-features.html
[22:17] <kwwii> wow, the last update to karmic totally borked my system
[22:26] <ckontros> kwwii: Mine went fine.
[22:27] <kwwii> ckontros: this was a fresh install with a normal update
[22:27] <kwwii> this morning it only works in windows
[22:27] <kwwii> not event he recovery system can get it to a console
[22:27] <kwwii> it is like god pressed a button
[22:31] <coz_> is anyone here going to push for ..at the least..better wallpaper in Lucid??  now is the time ...:)
[22:33] <DanRabbit> coz_: I thought the wallpaper turned out pretty good for Karmic
[22:38] <coz_> DanRabbit, `o0
[22:38] <coz_> not during the boot sequence
[22:38] <coz_> those images should be the same image
[22:39] <coz_> desktop image and xsplash should be consistent
[22:40] <kwwii> coz_: I don't think that is a rule
[22:40] <kwwii> although they should certiainly play well together
[22:40] <coz_> sorry about that
[22:40] <coz_> kwwii,  of course it';s not a "rule" but it is artistically sound
[22:40] <coz_> :)
[22:41] <coz_> when I first booted into karmic I assumed... sensibily..that that muddy image was also going to be the desktop image..albeit that muddy image is not good  still it makes sense that the xsplash and desktop image would be the same
[22:42] <coz_> smoother transitioins
[22:42] <coz_> visually
[22:42] <coz_> I am on lucid right now and of course that same xsplash image is present
[22:42] <kwwii> coz_: I spent many years saying they should be the same or derived works
[22:42] <coz_> as is the karmic wallpaper
[22:42] <kwwii> that was why I helped write the bootsplash
[22:43] <kwwii> to do exactly that
[22:43] <coz_> sorry again
[22:43] <coz_> new keyboard :(
[22:43] <coz_> kwwii,  and you had no reasonalbe responses to that?
[22:43] <kwwii> not sure I get you
[22:44] <coz_> kwwii,  you say you spend many years saying they should be same or derived works... no one responded to that  over the years?
[22:45] <kwwii> actually, the first person to tell me that they don't have to be was mark
[22:45] <coz_> kwwii,  well of course he said that he is a programmer
[22:46] <coz_> kwwii,   he doesnt know better
[22:46] <kwwii> ;)
[22:46] <kwwii> now that we have a team of people interfacing things are changing
[22:46] <kwwii> slowly but surely
[22:48] <coz_> kwwii,  well personally..with us coming up on 10.4  it should have already changed... if mark is dragging progress down visually,,then that has to brought to his attention so he removes himself from the process
[22:48] <kwwii> coz_: you would be amazed at how much we have done this time
[22:48] <kwwii> ;)
[22:48] <DanRabbit> coz_: my the force be with you.
[22:48] <DanRabbit> may*
[22:49] <kwwii> coz_: this time we sat down with him for a week of intensive direction and we are working from there
[22:49] <kwwii> things are a lot more well planned than last time
[22:49] <coz_> kwwii,  I hope that shows up "early" in lucid;s development
[22:50] <coz_> along with a derivitive of troy's boot sequence
[22:50] <kwwii> coz_: so far, our first plan for art drops is dec 15
[22:50] <kwwii> ;)
[22:50] <coz_> damn keyboard
[22:50] <kwwii> so you'll get something new for christmas
[22:51] <coz_> kwwii,  :)  well  I think the final decisions should be made by either an "art team" or the users who can..during the development phase,,comment on the graphics
[22:52] <coz_> so far ...and I have been using ubuntu from the beginning and on this  community art team almost as long...although I dont know if I am still listed... I have only been slightly impressed with jaunty's wallpaper.... most of the gtk themes are wanting as well
[22:53] <coz_> I dont see a direction .. a vision... in the works
[22:54]  * ckontros is still surprised to see people beating this dead horse. Come on. Damn things a skeleton. Bones bleached by the sun by now.
[22:54] <kwwii> hehe
[22:54] <coz_> ckontros,  well the horse hasnt been born yet to beat it to death
[22:55] <ckontros> coz_: Nice try but you know I refer to the subject of Marks involvement. It is what it is. It won't change. You've been here long enough to know.
[22:56] <coz_> so I cant stop bringing this up... it has not happened yet...and seriously  mark and any other programmer has to be removed from the artisitc  phase
[22:56] <kwwii> he will always be the "client" whether you like it or not
[22:56] <kwwii> but his participation has changed over the years
[22:56] <ckontros> Hahaha.
[22:56] <coz_> yeah I know...but he has to be removed from the artisitc end of things or rely heavily on those that are quality artists as the final decision makers
[22:57] <DanRabbit> coz_: unfortunately, at this stage, if you're basing your decision on design you need to look further than Ubuntu's default.
[22:57] <DanRabbit> hopefully, Lucid or Lucid +1 or Lucid + 100 will fix that
[22:57] <DanRabbit> ;)
[22:57] <coz_> DanRabbit,   of course that is the hope  but it never is realized
[22:57]  * ckontros shakes head. coz: Sorry man. You'll get nowhere in here. You want a change, make your own distro/theme.
[22:58] <ckontros> Hell. It's kinda what I did. ;)
[22:58] <coz_> ckontros,  are  you the guy that always likes to put negatives on things lol
[22:58] <kwwii> coz_: many people make the mistake of thinking that ubuntu is theirs to drive, so to speak
[22:58] <kwwii> wrt to artwork
[22:58] <kwwii> but is really isn't
[22:58] <coz_> If mark were here  I would say the same thing and try my best to convince him he has no artisitc insight
[22:58] <kwwii> lol
[22:58] <kwwii> I am sure that would go well
[22:59] <ckontros> coz_: When appropriate, yes.
[22:59] <kwwii> having struggled to work with him for years, I would not say that he does not have an artistical insight
[22:59] <ckontros> But pays the bills like it or not. :)
[23:00] <kwwii> but that he does not know how to explain it correctly nor the experience to combine those ideas into a realistic plan
[23:00] <coz_> kwwii,  he does not  guy  at least from the perspective of seeing the end results
[23:00] <kwwii> one day, when you ask me how I lost my job at canonical, it will be that sentence
[23:00] <DanRabbit> lol
[23:00] <coz_> :)
[23:01] <coz_> kwwii,  ok that I can accept as his limitation
[23:01] <coz_> welll  I just wanted to vent...I suppose.... I cannot make  water run uphill  I suppose
[23:01] <coz_> I thought maybe side ways  :)
[23:04] <kwwii> I think lucid will be a telling distribution
[23:04] <kwwii> we have a lot of stuff ready but the question is whether we release new stuff in an LTS
[23:04] <kwwii> or whether we hold it back and work on it some more
[23:04] <coz_> kwwii,  of course you should
[23:04] <coz_> no no holding back
[23:04] <kwwii> lol
[23:05] <kwwii> proving that you know nothing about what an LTS means
[23:05] <coz_> kwwii,  its time now... the city of Largo florida ...the governent there has switched entirely to linux + compiz   but they chose suse over ubuntu
[23:05] <coz_> kwwii,   one of the reasons is that is is always consistent  visually
[23:05] <coz_> and fairly well done
[23:06] <coz_> not the only reason but certainly part of the decision
[23:06] <kwwii> if we could finally ever trust having compiz all the time things would be different
[23:06] <kwwii> well, gl support
[23:07] <kwwii> but we are still a while from that
[23:07] <coz_> kwwii,  yeah but compiz isnt an "artistic" applicatoin it is just a window manager
[23:07] <kwwii> I think that within less than 2 years it'll work everywhere
[23:07] <coz_> kwwii,  compiz?
[23:07] <kwwii> gl
[23:07] <coz_> kwwii,  oh
[23:07] <kwwii> it allows you to do really new stuf
[23:07] <kwwii> f
[23:07] <kwwii> like clutter
[23:07] <kwwii> etc
[23:07] <coz_> right  I agree
[23:08] <coz_> although the c++ compiz coming out hopefully this christmas should make some things more reliable
[23:08] <coz_> kwwii,  well again... I usually vent during the early development of the next version :)
[23:09] <coz_> kwwii,  I am apparenlty always hopeful things will change :)
[23:10] <coz_> i have to log off of this lucid system and get on karmic   other wise I will accidentally log off  be right back and you guys can continue  beating me up lol
[23:10] <kwwii> the current plan is that whatever doesn't make it into the LTS makes it into the alpha 1 of +1
[23:10] <kwwii> oops
[23:12] <coz_> I have to admit...even after all these years.. I am not quite sure of the process that has to be gone through with mark to finalize anyghing visually
[23:13] <coz_> anything
[23:13] <kwwii> the current plan is that whatever doesn't make it into the LTS  makes it into the alpha 1 of +1
[23:13] <kwwii> you might have missed that ^----^
[23:14] <kwwii> trust me, you don't want to know
[23:14] <kwwii> it was hardcore
[23:14] <coz_> kwwii,  actually I do want to know...although not at this moment
[23:15] <kwwii> lol, one day I should write a book
[23:15] <coz_> kwwii,   I would definitly read that one lol
[23:15] <kwwii> give me a couple more years and then I can do one
[23:15] <kwwii> 7 at suse and 7 at canonical, that would be worthwhile
[23:15] <coz_> kwwii,  well  but  in the meantime  ubuntu is going to suffer visually no?
[23:16] <kwwii> no, not at all
[23:16] <kwwii> currently we have the most well-planned release before us that we have ever had
[23:16] <coz_> kwwii,  ok that's good... how do the 'grphics" fit in ot that plan though
[23:17] <coz_> graphics
[23:17] <coz_> and what  "weight" does that particular aspect have in the planning
[23:18] <kwwii> it has the highest priority
[23:18] <coz_> kwwii,  wow that surprises mne
[23:18] <coz_> me
[23:19] <kwwii> yepp, we have done something that I have never experienced before at a linux company
[23:19] <kwwii> with novell bought suse and ximian it was close but not like this
[23:19] <coz_> kwwii,  ok could you explain that to me?
[23:19] <coz_> kwwii, it may cause me to not "complain" as much and maybe get more involved
[23:19] <coz_> :)
[23:20] <kwwii> coz_: well, in the early years the whole linux design movement was a few people working alone
[23:21] <kwwii> and then we tried to get the community invovled
[23:21] <kwwii> but that can't work on it's own
[23:21] <coz_> kwwii,   oh I see what you mean ... I understand
[23:21] <kwwii> and some companies started to look at hiring proffesionals to take over
[23:21] <kwwii> but not really take over
[23:21] <coz_> ok
[23:21] <kwwii> so now we have a real team
[23:21] <kwwii> ;)
[23:22] <coz_> kwwii,  ok I clearly that part.... but how is actually on the "official art team"  and what qualifications do they have?
[23:22] <coz_> not how  but rather "who"
[23:22] <coz_> who is actually on the team
[23:22] <kwwii> oh, we have people on our team who have done some pretty impressive stuff
[23:23] <kwwii> I cannot start describing people on ir
[23:23] <kwwii> c
[23:23] <kwwii> :p
[23:23] <coz_> kwwii,  artistically impressive stuff?
[23:23] <kwwii> yepp
[23:23] <coz_> kwwii,  it has not shown up in any ubuntu version as of this moment/
[23:23] <kwwii> no, not really
[23:23] <coz_> kwwii,  not eve close
[23:24] <kwwii> a lot of the original work was not used
[23:24] <kwwii> but now we have a solid plan, I think
[23:24] <kwwii> and it does take a bit of time to get things up to speed
[23:24] <coz_> kwwii,   mmm is there a site that actually lists the "names    of the official art team?
[23:25] <kwwii> imagine hiring a whole new team of people within a year, having to change the leader half way through, etc
[23:25] <ckontros> Later. Tired of reading scrollback that I've seen 100 times over 4 years. ;)
[23:25] <kwwii> no but pretty soon we will be releasing a site with more info
[23:25] <kwwii> I cannot really talk about that yet
[23:25] <kwwii> but imgagine an informational site kinda like a blog
[23:26] <coz_> kwwii,  that sounds cool  but I just wanted the names of the people on the "official art team"  so that I can research this "impressive stuff" they have done
[23:27] <kwwii> I don't want to keep any secrets but I am honestly not sure if I am allowed to give out names
[23:28] <kwwii> I know that in germany it might be wrong, sorry
[23:28] <coz_> kwwii,  not allowed to give the names of the official team?
[23:28] <coz_> that';s  odd
[23:28] <kwwii> coz_: well, that is a matter of what you consider the official team
[23:28] <kwwii> and I cannot define that
[23:28] <coz_> kwwii,   I was educated at carnegie mellon university in fine art... i dont want you to think I am some one with no background
[23:30] <coz_> kwwii,   ok I suppose the "official"  team would consist of those making the final decisions
[23:30] <kwwii> well, I can give you some names...no idea if the spelling is correct though
[23:30] <kwwii> mat tomaszeweski
[23:30] <coz_> or at least  offereing a small choice of options for those that do make final decision
[23:30] <kwwii> erm, no last e
[23:30] <kwwii> tomaszewski
[23:30] <kwwii> marcus haslam
[23:30] <kwwii> otto greenslade
[23:31] <kwwii> etc
[23:31] <coz_> ok I can see if I can research any of their works
[23:31] <kwwii> I am not sure of the contracts of some employees so I am unsure about listing them here
[23:31] <kwwii> marcus did the Oyster card logo for the london tube system
[23:31] <kwwii> for instance
[23:32] <kwwii> the guy knows branding better than anyone I have ever met
[23:32] <coz_> ok
[23:32] <coz_> I can research this
[23:33] <coz_> kwwii,  are you talking about this logo?   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground
[23:34] <kwwii> lol, no
[23:35] <coz_> thank god
[23:35] <coz_> :)
[23:37] <kwwii> wow
[23:37] <kwwii> that is pretty hard core
[23:38] <kwwii> about a third of the world know that logo
[23:45] <coz_> kwwii,  thanks guys :)
[23:51] <kwwii> happy to help
[23:51] <kwwii> time for sleep
[23:51] <kwwii> see you soon
[23:54] <coz_> kwwii,  sleep well guy
[23:56] <kwwii> thanks, have fun
[23:59] <coz_> kwwii,  ok guy    I am assuming you are in Germany?