[00:23] <hggdh> but against gfxboot??
[00:30] <mrand> hggdh: I know, struck me as strange.  But that I could find, that is it.   Open to suggestions!
[00:30] <mrand> oops.  bbl
[02:34] <dogatemycomputer> I need some guidance.   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Upstream/OpenOffice says "Before forwarding a bug upstream you MUST first determine which upstream is responsible for the bug. Thus you must be able to reproduce the bug. After reproducing the bug on the Ubuntu version, which uses Go-OO ooo-build, you must also test the Sun version. If it is reproducible on the Sun version then file the bug in the Sun bug tracker. With Sun
[02:34] <dogatemycomputer>  bugs make certain to state that you tested on their build, or they will likely close your bug without even looking at it. If it is not reproducible on the Sun version and you believe it is likely not a Debian/Ubuntu specific issue then file the bug in the Novell bug tracker. ".
[02:35] <dogatemycomputer> I am happy to test the bug to confirm bug #492182 is a problem with OpenOffice.   Should I just load Debian proper and download the source from Novell or is there an easier way to test it?
[02:36] <MTecknology> If I have some keys (Fn Keys) that that aren't being detected at all; what package should I report this against?
[02:36] <dogatemycomputer> I would like to correct my grammar.   I am happy to confirm bug #492182 is a problem with OpenOffice.   Should I just load Debian proper and download the source from Novell or is there an PREFERRED way to test it?
[02:38] <MTecknology> dogatemycomputer: quiet.. usually active in here..
[02:39] <dogatemycomputer> MTecknology:  I am not usually present.   I'm playing L4D.  I figure someone will respond when they are ready.
[02:39] <MTecknology> dogatemycomputer: what was the question?
[02:40] <MTecknology> I only have ~5min but maybe I can help
[02:41] <dogatemycomputer> I need some guidance.   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Upstream/OpenOffice says "Before forwarding a bug upstream you MUST first determine which upstream is responsible for the bug. Thus you must be able to reproduce the bug. After reproducing the bug on the Ubuntu version, which uses Go-OO ooo-build, you must also test the Sun version. If it is reproducible on the Sun version then file the bug in the Sun bug tracker. With Sun
[02:41] <dogatemycomputer>  bugs make certain to state that you tested on their build, or they will likely close your bug without even looking at it. If it is not reproducible on the Sun version and you believe it is likely not a Debian/Ubuntu specific issue then file the bug in the Novell bug tracker. ".
[02:41] <dogatemycomputer> I would like to correct my grammar.   I am happy to confirm bug #492182 is a problem with OpenOffice.   Should I just load Debian proper and download the source from Novell or is there an PREFERRED way to test it?
[02:44] <MTecknology> To test that... I'd just install a virtual machine and install suse or something on it
[02:44] <MTecknology> if the bug occures; it's not debian/ubuntu specific
[02:46] <pting> i'm building php5 from source... apt-get source php5 && dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -uc worked great... i was able to generate the debs... however, subsequent dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -uc seems to invokes a unpatch task in debian/rules... and it always fails at unpatching suhosin.patch... since this is my 1st attempt at building a package from source... am i possibly doing something wrong? i'm on karmic
[02:46] <MTecknology> pting: #ubuntu-motu can probably help you better
[02:46] <pting> thanks
[02:48] <dogatemycomputer> MTecknology:  What does  'motu' stand for?
[02:48] <MTecknology> !motu
[02:48] <ubot4> motu is short for Masters of the Universe. The brave souls who maintain the packages in the Universe section of Ubuntu. See  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
[02:51] <dogatemycomputer> MTecknology: Thanks!
[02:52] <MTecknology> np
[03:18] <nigel_nb> hggdh: there?
[03:19] <hggdh> here
[03:19] <nigel_nb> ah
[03:20] <nigel_nb> I need help with that bug I spoke to you earlier about
[03:20] <nigel_nb> I was at work and couldn't do anything with that, coz i had a meeting just about then
[03:21] <hggdh> which one was the bug?
[03:22] <nigel_nb> bug 492136
[03:22] <nigel_nb> oh, the bot is silent
[03:23] <hggdh> ah, OK
[03:23] <hggdh> so, what can I do for you?
[03:25] <nigel_nb> its a pulse audio bug
[03:25] <hggdh> looks like it is related to PA, yes
[03:25] <hggdh> there are some things here
[03:25] <hggdh> (1) empathy is aborting, not crashing (so it seems)
[03:26] <hggdh> (2) we need a stacktrace, or a debug run
[03:26] <hggdh> stdout/stderr output is not really enough to pin down this
[03:26] <nigel_nb> how do i stacktrace?
[03:26] <hggdh> heh
[03:26] <nigel_nb> :(
[03:27] <hggdh> first -- can you repeat it?
[03:27] <nigel_nb> nope
[03:27] <nigel_nb> works beautifully for me
[03:27] <nigel_nb> so he has to do it
[03:27] <hggdh> ah well. I had to ask ;-)
[03:27] <hggdh> hum
[03:27] <nigel_nb> :)
[03:28] <hggdh> one way would be to run empathy under gdb, and set a breakpoint on pulsecore/memblock.c:451
[03:28] <hggdh> but all necessary debug symbols *must* be installed
[03:28] <nigel_nb> I'm embarassed to say that I'm still lost
[03:28] <hggdh> :-)
[03:28] <hggdh> no worry
[03:29] <hggdh> here's the deal: we know that -- at least for the OR -- empathy aborts on a video call
[03:29] <nigel_nb> yep
[03:30] <hggdh> also, the stdout/stderr is nice enough to tell us it is aborting at memblock.c, line 451 (for the running PA libs)
[03:30] <hggdh> this is where an assertion -- 'b', as the output -- is failing
[03:31] <hggdh> so we should be able to see an assert statement at this line 451
[03:31] <hggdh> (you would have to download the source of PA that is in use to really see it)
[03:32] <hggdh> so, knowing all that, one should be able to set a breakpoint on gdb to trigger on this assert failure
[03:32] <hggdh> but this can be either a PA issue, or an empathy one (still)
[03:33] <hggdh> but the thing is we would need to look at the PA source to know what is happening there
[03:33] <hggdh> nigel_nb: are you, per chance, a programmer?
[03:43] <spO> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+source/fglrx-installer/+bug/440233   <-- this is why ati sucks, I haven't been able to play 1080p movies since karmic fresh install
[04:56] <nigel_nb> hggdh: I'm so sorry, today has just been unlucky
[04:56] <nigel_nb> just not able to have a proper conversation...
[04:56] <nigel_nb> power got busted, and the router went dead
[04:58] <nigel_nb> hggdh: I guess you're away, we'll talk in the morning
[05:16] <WeatherGod> very angry rant on a high-profile bug report...
[05:17] <WeatherGod> bug 464591
[05:21] <WeatherGod> hgghd, I figure maybe someone higher up should respond or deal with it...
[05:22] <WeatherGod> hggdh, --^
[05:22] <WeatherGod> can't spell this late at night
[05:23] <WeatherGod> essentially, Bryce originally marked this one as "Won't Fix" because the original reporter said he was using the proprietary nvidia drivers
[05:24] <WeatherGod> then, when it became clear that it wasn't proprietary drivers being used, but mixed up home-baked kernels, he changed it to Invalid
[05:25] <WeatherGod> now this guy chimed in with a long rant saying that we are basically telling users to "F--- Off"
[05:25] <WeatherGod> and that we are mis-using the labels
[05:26] <nigel_nb> WeatherGod: that is one heck of a rant
[05:26] <nigel_nb> just finished reading it
[05:26] <nigel_nb> its plain rude :(
[05:27] <WeatherGod> yeah, and completely smacks of ignorance
[05:27] <nigel_nb> yeah
[05:27] <nigel_nb> if he read the technical implication of the statuses, he would get an idea
[05:27] <WeatherGod> especially in light of Bryce's very useful posting pointing people to appropriate reports
[05:28] <nigel_nb> he has some amazing patience
[05:28] <nigel_nb> remember the guy who wrote to the mailing list
[05:28] <WeatherGod> well, I think he knows the correct implications, he is asserting that we weren't justifying them
[05:28] <WeatherGod> which?
[05:28] <nigel_nb> something about qmail and thunderbird?
[05:28] <WeatherGod> oh, I saw that, I wasn't sure what was going on there
[05:29] <WeatherGod> yesterday was a bit busy for me
[05:29] <nigel_nb> he just didnt understand that the reporter is supposed to change the status from incomplete to new when he gave additional info
[05:29] <nigel_nb> he didn't, and the bug kept expiring
[05:29] <nigel_nb> he got mightily pissed off and ranted to the whole bug squad
[05:29] <nigel_nb> thankfully hggdh__ replied to it
[05:30] <WeatherGod> ah
[05:30] <WeatherGod> well, I don't think it is immediately obvious...
[05:30] <nigel_nb> I know
[05:31] <nigel_nb> i was speaking to micah about it
[05:31] <WeatherGod> I tend to take it on myself to set it to new if a person replied to one of my questions
[05:31] <nigel_nb> me too
[05:31] <WeatherGod> the problem is that bug reports can easily become echo chambers
[05:32] <WeatherGod> and people think that by yelling really loudly in an inactive bug report magically gets people listening
[05:32] <WeatherGod> and then when nothing happens, they get angrier
[05:32] <nigel_nb> true
[05:33] <nigel_nb> we need to have a clear document which people can refer to while reporting bugs
[05:33] <WeatherGod> and other people post blog listings, which increases traffic to that bug for everyone else but the maintainers
[05:33] <nigel_nb> we do have it
[05:33] <nigel_nb> but people should know
[05:33] <nigel_nb> and people are blogging about not getting bugs fixed!
[05:33] <WeatherGod> yeah...
[05:34] <WeatherGod> actually, what we probably really need is some sort of "reflag" feature...
[05:34] <nigel_nb> reflag?
[05:34] <WeatherGod> if your bug report seems to be inactive for a while... then maybe the user could push some sort of button that puts it back at the top of the RSS feed
[05:35] <WeatherGod> it requires that the OR cares enough about the but
[05:35] <WeatherGod> bug
[05:35] <nigel_nb> micah was suggestign letting them know they can come here and ask
[05:35] <WeatherGod> yeah... we get what... one or two a day
[05:35] <nigel_nb> probably, we could add a link to connect them to freenode webchat and bug room
[05:35] <WeatherGod> that might be an idea
[05:35] <nigel_nb> you know, as part of the canned response
[05:35] <nigel_nb> so they can know, any doubts, people are always here live to help them
[05:35] <WeatherGod> I just hate to see this room turn into the #ubuntu room
[05:36] <nigel_nb> I know
[05:36] <nigel_nb> but just an idea
[05:36] <WeatherGod> have you ever tried going in there?
[05:36] <nigel_nb> I used to help in there :P
[05:36] <WeatherGod> I can't read fast enough
[05:36] <nigel_nb> until my eyes got tired
[05:36] <WeatherGod> you poor, poor thing...
[05:36] <nigel_nb> when I reported my first bug, I came in here
[05:36] <nigel_nb> asked micah and then reported
[05:36] <nigel_nb> helped a lot
[05:37] <WeatherGod> yeah... works pretty nicely...
[05:37] <WeatherGod> helped out a guy the other day with networking issues
[05:37] <nigel_nb> so..in conclusion, it would be nice to have people come here
[05:37] <nigel_nb> but the problem is, it would be a mess here
[05:37] <nigel_nb> we'd need a new channel just to do our discussions or we'd need a channel for guys to help others file bugs
[05:38] <nigel_nb> but that would again a copy of #ubuntu
[05:38] <WeatherGod> all these ideas have pros and cons
[05:38] <nigel_nb> yea
[05:38] <nigel_nb> some major cons
[05:38] <nigel_nb> I know
[05:38] <nigel_nb> I'm just thinking aloud
[05:38] <nigel_nb> for something good that might strike either of us
[05:39] <WeatherGod> my other idea is to discourage adding to other people's reports
[05:39] <nigel_nb> +100 to that one
[05:39] <nigel_nb> I say, always file new reports
[05:39] <WeatherGod> I personally think it is better for them to file a bug, maybe note that it might be a dupe of something else and let us link them
[05:39] <nigel_nb> if its a dup, we'll mark it thta way
[05:40] <nigel_nb> exactly my point :)
[05:40] <WeatherGod> problem is that other bug report systems work opposite that
[05:40] <nigel_nb> like gnome?
[05:40] <WeatherGod> and openoffice
[05:40] <nigel_nb> but they're not like us
[05:40] <WeatherGod> no, they aren't
[05:40] <WeatherGod> for better and for worse
[05:40] <nigel_nb> they dont have much of hardware/driver dependent issues
[05:41] <nigel_nb> and most of our major problems revolve around sound or display
[05:41] <WeatherGod> and configuration issues
[05:41] <nigel_nb> yea
[05:41] <nigel_nb> software bugs are linked upstream and upstream works on them pretty fast
[05:42] <WeatherGod> I still find it difficult, though to really wade through these reports...
[05:42] <dtchen> my major problem is that people often google their way into an LP bug report and add unrelated comments
[05:42] <WeatherGod> yeah
[05:42] <nigel_nb> dtchen, thats something we were talkin about
[05:42] <WeatherGod> dtchen, btw... I bow to your debug-fu
[05:43] <nigel_nb> u'd have major trouble with that in sound
[05:43] <nigel_nb> coz every thing is device/driver specific which means thousands of combinations
[05:43] <WeatherGod> yeah... "Hey, I have no sound, too!"
[05:43] <nigel_nb> and adding to the same bug would cause so many problems
[05:44] <WeatherGod> and confusion as other newbies try out bad solutions
[05:44] <nigel_nb> WeatherGod: daniel had blogged about a flame recently
[05:44] <WeatherGod> which?
[05:44] <dtchen> the second of Craig's?
[05:44] <nigel_nb> yep
[05:45] <nigel_nb> every job has its ups and downs, as per me, the downs for working with bug squad is attitude of the reports :( sadly
[05:46] <WeatherGod> yeah, but then there are are real nice people... like Doris
[05:46] <nigel_nb> I dont mind wading through reports, but showing restraint when everyone excepts u too be solving them is tough :)
[05:46] <nigel_nb> solving their problem I mean
[05:46] <WeatherGod> a 70 year old women I am dealing with that loves to tell me everything
[05:46] <WeatherGod> yeah
[05:46] <nigel_nb> I know about good users
[05:47] <nigel_nb> seen plenty :)
[05:47] <WeatherGod> and the fact that we actually solve issues is good
[05:48] <nigel_nb> yeah, I sometimes wonder how daniel does it :)
[05:48] <WeatherGod> dtchen, speaking of confusion by users... I swear the one user I am dealing with screwed up his system by uninstalling pulseaudio
[05:49] <WeatherGod> and somehow messed up the reinstallation
[05:50] <nigel_nb> dtchen: does ubuntu audio team deal with pulseaudio bugs too?
[05:50] <nigel_nb> I've got an empathy bug where pulse audio might be the culprit, but I need to confirm first
[05:50] <dtchen> WeatherGod: happens sometimes. In those cases I ask for the symptom(s) to be reproduced from a desktop/live cd.
[05:51] <WeatherGod> hmm, that's a good idea... probably should do that next
[05:52] <dtchen> nigel_nb: all audio symptoms in the stack, i.e., linux/alsa-driver, alsa-lib, alsa-plugins, pulseaudio, phonon, libsdl1.2, libao, jack-audio-connection-kit, libffado, etc.
[05:52] <WeatherGod> dtchen, and you don't get paid for any of that?
[05:52] <dtchen> nope.
[05:52]  * WeatherGod bows
[05:52] <dtchen> I've done this since Hoary
[05:52]  * nigel_nb bows too 
[05:53] <nigel_nb> only 2 of you?
[05:53] <WeatherGod> Hoary?
[05:53] <dtchen> Ubuntu 5.04
[05:54] <nigel_nb> 9 + 1 :O
[05:54] <WeatherGod> yeah... don't know how you have been dealing with this
[05:55] <WeatherGod> so, how do we want to deal with the ranter I was talking about?
[05:56] <WeatherGod> I am thinking of a cannon...
[05:56] <nigel_nb> you could probably point out the reasons why it was marked so
[05:56] <nigel_nb> but that would increase the rants
[05:56] <virtuald> what happens when you link to the code of conduct in a bug report gone bad?
[05:57] <WeatherGod> they never signed the code of conduct
[05:57] <virtuald> is that what they say?
[05:57] <WeatherGod> and it still doesn't address that reporter's feelings
[05:57] <nigel_nb> you dont need to sign CoC to report a bug
[05:57] <WeatherGod> the feelings are real, regardless of how misguided they are
[05:57] <nigel_nb> I agree there, we need to adress their issues and not our feelings on it
[05:58] <nigel_nb> something clear and unoffensive
[05:58] <WeatherGod> which would largely be a clarification of what Bryce did
[05:59] <dtchen> which bug?
[05:59] <WeatherGod> I just need to see how to defuse him
[05:59] <dtchen> it's worth revisiting the entire history
[05:59] <WeatherGod> bug 464591
[05:59] <jmarsden> I suspect the main thing here is that "one issue, one bug report" would *really* help.  If each person in that bug report filed their own bug describing their own situation clearly, many could be helped.  Lumped together like that, it's hard to handle.
[05:59] <WeatherGod> yeah, I can give you a summary, if you like
[06:00] <nigel_nb> jmarsden: that would be the best!
[06:00] <WeatherGod> yeah, and it is more likely for us to see a prominent problem
[06:00] <nigel_nb> like how people have done for ubuntuone
[06:00] <WeatherGod> exactly!
[06:00] <nigel_nb> there are about 30+ dupes and we've linked them up
[06:00] <WeatherGod> please, there are more than 30
[06:00] <nigel_nb> well.. the last time i linked one, it was 30
[06:01] <WeatherGod> heh
[06:01] <nigel_nb> now its probably more
[06:01] <nigel_nb> but i think the main thing here is the apport-collect
[06:01] <nigel_nb> which gets triggered when ubuntuone crashes
[06:01] <WeatherGod> yeah
[06:01] <nigel_nb> and people automatically take 5 mins to log them
[06:02] <nigel_nb> for display issues, everyone uses the forum and google
[06:02] <nigel_nb> and end up on the same bug :(
[06:02] <jmarsden> But in the case of 464591, it's hard to expect a user seeing a flickery screen no way to use their machine to use an automated reporting tool from it.
[06:02] <virtuald> o.o
[06:02] <WeatherGod> that is true... that's what launchpad is for
[06:03] <nigel_nb> jmarsden: do u think a brainstorm of a GUI program would help?
[06:03] <nigel_nb> something that helps users select the package they are going to file a bug and enter the description right there
[06:03] <nigel_nb> and direct report it to launchpad with very little effort
[06:03] <WeatherGod> isn't that apport?
[06:03] <nigel_nb> yea, but that doesn't work for everything does it?
[06:03] <jmarsden> Well, only if the user can run it with the PC in whatever state they got it into... I suspect many of these users are rebooting into Windows to file their bug or to search for help.
[06:04] <nigel_nb> oh, yeah, silly me
[06:04] <WeatherGod> yeah, and can't  expect them to know about apport-cli
[06:04] <nigel_nb> WeatherGod: what i just envisioned was something link system > report bugs
[06:04] <nigel_nb> select package from drop down
[06:04] <nigel_nb> and enter the description there
[06:05] <nigel_nb> and probably documentation by the bug squad there on how to write description
[06:05] <nigel_nb> I'm just dreaming away...hoping I hit something
[06:05] <WeatherGod> I was thinking something like a standardize reporting system where there are all sorts of automated/standardized information thhat is used
[06:06] <WeatherGod> then, users can add additional information as they see fit
[06:06] <nigel_nb> yeah, built on top of apport
[06:06] <WeatherGod> so, for example... the program would automatically tag the report with the architecture, and the desktop and the kernel and OS release
[06:07] <nigel_nb> apport does it
[06:07] <WeatherGod> and maybe general category like "display", "sound", "keyboard"
[06:07] <nigel_nb> I think what we need is a gui version of apport that doesn't scare newbie's away
[06:07] <WeatherGod> it collects it, but does it 'tag' it?
[06:07] <nigel_nb> and all installed programs that we support
[06:07] <nigel_nb> it tags archtecture I think
[06:07] <nigel_nb> donno
[06:07] <WeatherGod> yeah, asking for packages is probably wrong
[06:08] <WeatherGod> it should ask for category
[06:08] <WeatherGod> the description should mention the program if they know
[06:08] <WeatherGod> yeah, it does sometimes tag architecture, but not the other info
[06:08] <nigel_nb> a gui interface would probably help a lot to solve our issues
[06:09] <WeatherGod> there is ubuntu-bug
[06:09] <WeatherGod> it is in the application menu
[06:09] <nigel_nb> but it needs the user to know the package
[06:09] <WeatherGod> right
[06:09] <WeatherGod> so, change that behavior
[06:09] <nigel_nb> u can't expect new users to know that sound is alsa-base or display is x
[06:09] <WeatherGod> categorize user reported bugs by topic
[06:10] <nigel_nb> have u reported upstream gnome bug?
[06:10] <nigel_nb> seen their interface? I love it
[06:10] <WeatherGod> yeah, I think that would be by-far... the most beneficial thing
[06:10] <nigel_nb> category, subcategory and then description
[06:10] <WeatherGod> yeah... I think it is ok, but it is still intimidating
[06:10] <WeatherGod> have you tried openoffice...
[06:10] <nigel_nb> nope
[06:10] <WeatherGod> it is downright scary
[06:11] <nigel_nb> gnome upstream is very simple
[06:11] <nigel_nb> and clean
[06:11] <WeatherGod> even I, who have been using open office for 5 years couldn't figure out the right place to report
[06:11] <WeatherGod> I like how clean and simple launchpad's interface is
[06:11] <nigel_nb> whoa!
[06:12] <nigel_nb> gnome is like launchpad on a diet :p
[06:12] <nigel_nb> oh btw, WeatherGod you'd commented on one compiz bug, remember?
[06:12] <WeatherGod> which?
[06:13] <nigel_nb> bug 492271
[06:13] <WeatherGod> there have been a few
[06:13] <nigel_nb> any suggestions as to what next?
[06:14] <WeatherGod> lemme look that one up...
[06:14] <nigel_nb> ubot4 not working seem eerily strange
[06:14] <ubot4> nigel_nb: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
[06:14] <WeatherGod> I know... I can't even give him a /msg
[06:14] <WeatherGod> ah, there it is
[06:15] <nigel_nb> I could
[06:15] <nigel_nb> just /msg ubot4 bug 492271
[06:15] <nigel_nb> a query opens with his msg for me
[06:15] <WeatherGod> yeah... it was just slow as heck
[06:16] <WeatherGod> ok, this one...
[06:17] <WeatherGod> well, I haven't gotten many takers on my call for them to make their own bug reports
[06:17] <WeatherGod> I think I only have two
[06:17] <WeatherGod> I was right... they were definitely different bugs
[06:18] <nigel_nb> huh?
[06:18] <WeatherGod> this bug report originally came from one of the mega reports where everyone kept saying "me, too!"
[06:18] <nigel_nb> the reporter only talks about compiz
[06:18] <nigel_nb> ohh
[06:19] <nigel_nb> great to know someone's going the right way
[06:19] <WeatherGod> I had to tell everyone to refille and subscribe me
[06:19] <WeatherGod> I needed to categorize and group the symptoms
[06:19] <nigel_nb> thats how you ended up there, ah!
[06:19] <WeatherGod> different people had freezes at different times
[06:19] <WeatherGod> yes
[06:19] <WeatherGod> and different levels of freezes
[06:19] <nigel_nb> I did wonder
[06:20] <nigel_nb> isn't this one coz the driver is not able to handle compiz?
[06:20] <WeatherGod> I have no clue what to do for them... but they stand a better chance this way
[06:20] <WeatherGod> no, I don't think so
[06:20] <nigel_nb> but what do we do, set to confirmed?
[06:20] <WeatherGod> but, he could always turn off compiz
[06:20] <nigel_nb> hehe
[06:21] <nigel_nb> compiz is one major eye candy to switch to linux
[06:21] <WeatherGod> never used it myself
[06:21] <WeatherGod> poor EeePC
[06:22] <nigel_nb> I disliked jaunty just because I couldn't use compiz
[06:22] <WeatherGod> I use linux because of a superior development platform
[06:22] <WeatherGod> vi + make + gcc is awesome
[06:23] <nigel_nb> same here
[06:23] <nigel_nb> linux + apache +php
[06:23] <WeatherGod> plus, Windows refused to reinstall on my computer awhile back
[06:23] <WeatherGod> grabbed RedHat and tried it out
[06:23] <nigel_nb> I technically have a dual-boot system
[06:23] <WeatherGod> never looked back
[06:23] <nigel_nb> but been ages since I logged into the windows partition
[06:23] <WeatherGod> Windows free for 5 years
[06:24] <nigel_nb> its just there coz I regret paying for it
[06:24] <WeatherGod> hehe
[06:24] <nigel_nb> apparently when u buy your computer
[06:24] <nigel_nb> if u dont agree to the eula, you can get your money back
[06:25] <WeatherGod> yeah... that's is going by the wayside lately
[06:25] <maco> nigel_nb: with varying success
[06:25] <WeatherGod> I build my own or buy linux laptops
[06:25] <nigel_nb> maco: anyway, I'm stuck with widows vista
[06:25] <WeatherGod> hence my EeePC
[06:25] <nigel_nb> learned my lesson
[06:25] <nigel_nb> only buy dell/ibm
[06:25] <nigel_nb> dell gives ubuntu
[06:25] <nigel_nb> and ibm gives No OS option
[06:26] <WeatherGod> that's good
[06:26] <WeatherGod> knew about dell, didn't know ibm did that
[06:26] <nigel_nb> i mean lennovo
[06:26] <nigel_nb> same
[06:26] <nigel_nb> they had the option then, they still do
[06:26] <nigel_nb> its nice to save 3K
[06:26] <nigel_nb> in Indian currency
[06:27] <WeatherGod> about to say...
[06:27] <nigel_nb> on a different note, nice to see you maco :)
[06:27] <nigel_nb> WeatherGod: hehe
[06:28] <WeatherGod> anyway, I am sort of willing to mark that bug as Triaged or Confirmed for now
[06:28] <WeatherGod> at least until I get some more info
[06:28] <WeatherGod> from others, that is
[06:28] <nigel_nb> ah
[06:29] <nigel_nb> maco: can you take a look at a bug report for me
[06:31] <nigel_nb> WeatherGod: have you heard of acer having issues with gnome-power-manager?
[06:31] <WeatherGod> heh, just got another person filing a bug in someone else's report
[06:31] <WeatherGod> maybe... I don't recall anything off the top of my head though
[06:32] <WeatherGod> I usually don't pay too much attention to make/model, though
[06:32] <nigel_nb> I remember vaguely, cant remember where
[06:32] <nigel_nb> there is this bug, which I think has something to do with the hardware
[06:33] <nigel_nb> I guess staying awake for more than 20 hours * could * impair memory
[06:36] <WeatherGod> yeah... getting there for myself
[06:36] <WeatherGod> I  gotta sleep
[06:37] <WeatherGod> good night everybody
[06:37] <nigel_nb> night WeatherGod
[06:57] <WeatherGod> Just had an idea...
[06:58] <nigel_nb> WeatherGod: back again?
[06:58] <WeatherGod> as a way to combat bug reports falling through the cracks, what if there was a separate RSS feed for the bug reports that go untouched
[06:58] <WeatherGod> yeah, wanted to flesh this one out
[06:58] <nigel_nb> WeatherGod: there is a link
[06:59] <WeatherGod> oh?
[06:59] <nigel_nb> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.searchtext=&orderby=-datecreated&field.status%3Alist=New&field.importance%3Alist=Undecided&assignee_option=none&field.assignee=&field.owner=&field.component=1&field.component=2&field.component-empty-marker=1&field.omit_dupes.used=&field.omit_dupes=on&field.has_patch.used=&field.has_no_package.used=&search=Search
[06:59] <nigel_nb> save it into favorites
[06:59] <nigel_nb> that are "the new bugs"
[07:00] <WeatherGod> well, yes, but they are all of the new bugs
[07:00] <nigel_nb> yea, the ones that were not touched
[07:01] <WeatherGod> what about ones that haven't been touched for a few days
[07:01] <nigel_nb> there is one for about to expire bugs
[07:01] <nigel_nb> but thats no action for 60 days
[07:01] <WeatherGod> but, it has to have been touched to be set to incomplete
[07:02] <WeatherGod> let's call them virgin bugs...
[07:02] <WeatherGod> haven't been touched
[07:02] <nigel_nb> the link I gave you are all "new bugs" ones with status new
[07:02] <dtchen> (err, let's not go there for various gender-sensitive reasons)
[07:02] <nigel_nb> haha
[07:02] <WeatherGod> work with me here... I am a little sleep deprived...
[07:03] <nigel_nb> tried using advanced search?
[07:03] <WeatherGod> now, this RSS feed wouldn't have the brand-new virgin bugs
[07:03] <WeatherGod> it would have virgin bugs that have been reported, but still not touched for several days
[07:04] <WeatherGod> the Advanced search can't control how old the bugs are
[07:04] <WeatherGod> only their status
[07:05] <nigel_nb> i got your point
[07:05] <nigel_nb> u want all the bugs that were reported
[07:05] <nigel_nb> without anyone commenting on them ever
[07:05] <nigel_nb> right?
[07:05] <WeatherGod> exactly... but not those that are brand-spanking new
[07:06] <WeatherGod> consider it a secondary triage
[07:06] <nigel_nb> cud ask in #launchpad if something cud be done
[07:07] <WeatherGod> heck... let's get a little bit more general than that...
[07:07] <WeatherGod> wouldn't it be cool to contruct your own RSS feed based upon search criteria?
[07:08] <WeatherGod> kill "search".... call it filter
[07:08] <nigel_nb> WeatherGod: there might already be some test code for this
[07:08] <nigel_nb> lemme look around
[07:08] <WeatherGod> ok
[07:08] <nigel_nb> there is some qa team stuff floating around
[07:08] <nigel_nb> lemme look
[07:10] <WeatherGod> and,  members of the bug squad could share and customize their RSS feeds
[07:10] <WeatherGod> have a set of standard ones, maybe
[07:10] <nigel_nb> trust me rss feed is not that awesome for bug squad
[07:10] <nigel_nb> it flashes by too fast
[07:11] <WeatherGod> what do you use?
[07:11] <nigel_nb> I use custom links
[07:11] <nigel_nb> that way I get to see it on my browser
[07:12] <WeatherGod> I use Google Reader
[07:12] <WeatherGod> I see the titles
[07:12] <nigel_nb> this is faster in one sense
[07:12] <nigel_nb> i get to see the packages too
[07:12] <nigel_nb> so, if I feel its something I can't handle I skip it
[07:13] <WeatherGod> yeah, I have to click on the title to see which package
[07:13] <WeatherGod> but I find myself changing the package too often
[07:13] <nigel_nb> try this way for a few days then
[07:13] <nigel_nb> me too
[07:14] <WeatherGod> I will
[07:14] <nigel_nb> when you read the filed package with the title, you get a basic idea whether it needs changing
[07:14] <WeatherGod> yeah... but it is nice to have the "did I read this one yet"
[07:15] <WeatherGod> in a search result, you can't tell
[07:15] <nigel_nb> yep
[07:15] <nigel_nb> u keep opening it in a new window
[07:16] <WeatherGod> since I am always going back and forth between things, that is essential for me
[07:16] <nigel_nb> the link gets the clicked color
[07:16] <nigel_nb> new tab, not new window
[07:16] <WeatherGod> yeah, I gotta modify LaunchPad's CSS for visited links...
[07:17] <WeatherGod> too similar to unvisited links...
[07:17] <WeatherGod> at least for me
[07:17] <nigel_nb> correction, it doesn't
[07:17] <WeatherGod> well, that answers that
[07:18] <WeatherGod> I am a bit colorblind... I have gotten used to that
[07:18] <WeatherGod> I prefer bold/unbold
[07:18] <nigel_nb> ah
[07:18] <WeatherGod> hence why I like RSS readers
[07:19] <nigel_nb> in that case, its a good idea
[07:19] <WeatherGod> plus, the next time I hit refresh, the visited ones go away
[07:19] <nigel_nb> ohh
[07:19] <nigel_nb> that helps
[07:19] <WeatherGod> nice to keep it clean that way
[07:19] <WeatherGod> yes, it does
[07:20] <nigel_nb> but i didn't like google reader to be honest
[07:20] <nigel_nb> i use igoogle for feeds
[07:20] <WeatherGod> ah... I don't use igoogle at all, so I just use the Reader
[07:21] <WeatherGod> it isn't the best... but it works well enough
[07:21] <nigel_nb> my office blocked google reader ;)
[07:21] <WeatherGod> and google has a "sort by magic" feature
[07:21] <nigel_nb> igoogle remains unblocked :P
[07:21] <WeatherGod> don't know how it works, but the relevant Slashdot articles come up first
[07:21] <WeatherGod> go figure
[07:22] <WeatherGod> ok... well I got that virgin bug idea out in the open...
[07:22] <nigel_nb> back to bed?
[07:22] <WeatherGod> obviously, need a better name for it
[07:22] <WeatherGod> yeah... I promise!
[07:23] <nigel_nb> haha
[07:23] <nigel_nb> recently someone I know kicked himself when I didn't believe him
[07:23] <WeatherGod> good night
[07:23] <nigel_nb> g nite (I wonder, its afternoon here already)
[07:24] <WeatherGod> in India?
[07:24] <WeatherGod> (you mentioned indian currency earlier)
[07:25] <nigel_nb> yeah
[07:25] <WeatherGod> that explains that...
[07:25] <nigel_nb> I work nights though
[07:25] <nigel_nb> so my sleep cycle in synced with US :(
[07:25] <WeatherGod> which explains why I see you online during the day
[07:25] <WeatherGod> ok
[07:26] <nigel_nb> hehe
[07:26] <WeatherGod> ok, I promise... I am going to put my computer down... and walk away
[07:26] <nigel_nb> its a weekend anyway
[07:26] <WeatherGod> that's what someone else told me an hour ago
[07:26] <WeatherGod> byes
[12:26] <TheNewAndy> there is a package I can't install because of missing dependencies (openbve), what do I file the bug under?
[14:09] <pfred1> hi I just ran the updated and ended up with an unusuable system should I file a bug report?
[14:37] <^arky^> hi jcastro you around
[15:38] <janis_l> Can i get help on how i could contribute by fixing bugs
[15:42] <janis_l> I have joined in launchpad bug-squad group, but i can't find anything to fix and i can't find any information on wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/GettingInolved
[16:02] <deuxpi> janis_l: hi! On this page you will find a link to "How to triage"
[16:03] <deuxpi> janis_l: Triaging bug is an important part of making the best out of bug reports to improve Ubuntu
[16:06] <janis_l> thx, i'll read it!
[16:11] <seme> hey guys... I'm new to contributing to ubuntu and I wanted to submit something I would call a bug but I'm not sure if it fits.. basically I've been looking at the menu and packages are placed in what I would think is just the wrong location... Would that go under bug?
[16:13] <hggdh> seme: difficult to say -- if you have one specific package you feel is not correctly placed, then yes; if, OTOH, you feel many of them are wrong, this should probably be sent to
[16:13] <hggdh> the Ubuntu devel-discuss mailing list (with details) or to Brainstorm
[16:13] <seme> I see
[16:14] <seme> yeah I mean I saw a few of them and then it just snowballed
[16:14] <seme> I've actually been writing up what I would think is an appropriate fix
[16:14] <hggdh> can you give me some examples?
[16:14] <seme> what is the list address?
[16:15] <hggdh> seme: see http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-devel-discuss
[16:15] <seme> for example kicad and eagle are put in the programming category but really these are Electronics
[16:16] <hggdh> Is there an Electronics category?
[16:16] <seme> Piklab is in programming too but I guess you could argue that since you are programming it belongs there however I think since you would never be using it without electronics equipment perhaps it should be in electronics too
[16:16] <seme> yeah
[16:16] <hggdh> then I think it is worth a bug
[16:17]  * hggdh left electronics a long time ago
[16:28] <billio> Hi, I'm new to this game. I think I've hit a bug in an update package.
[16:29] <billio> I'm running Karmic on my laptop, and today the update manager offered a list of updates
[16:29] <billio> including kernel and Xorg. I ran them through and rebooted.
[16:30] <billio> Since then my keyboard has gone silly.
[16:30] <billio> At least it has for Gnome terminal, and my home-grown apps.
[16:31] <andre__> define "silly".
[16:31] <billio> It seems to be OK on here though. : # @ " £ have moved around.
[16:31] <andre__> so check your keyboard layout settings?
[16:32] <andre__> "on here" means which application?
[16:32] <billio> They were OK before the update.
[16:32] <billio> I'm running konversation
[16:32] <billio> I just did a quick check and emacs seems to be OK too? I'm puzzled.
[16:34] <billio> I checked System->Preferences->Keyboard and that says UK, Generic 105 keyboard
[16:59] <seme> christ what mailing list software are they using for ubuntu-devel-discuss
[16:59] <seme> tell me it isn't mailman
[16:59] <seme> :)
[17:24] <jpds> seme: It is.
[17:25] <jpds> seme: It's been like that for.... years now?
[17:29] <hggdh> since pretty much the start (or near enough
[18:05] <seme> seriously that has to be one of the worst mailing list web interfaces ever... its ok for managing membership I guess but sucks as a web interface... is it mirrored on google groups?
[18:14] <hggdh> it is mirrored (at least) on gmane.org
[18:21] <WeatherGod> quick apport-collect question...
[18:22] <WeatherGod> i got a user who accidentially mis-set his permissions and now can't use apport-collect to update his report
[18:22] <WeatherGod> how does he go about fixing his setting
[18:24] <WeatherGod> hggdh, thanks for taking care of that high-profile bug report with the rant
[18:24] <hggdh> WeatherGod: welcome. I am alos trying to remember the location for your question
[18:25] <hggdh> WeatherGod: I think I got it
[18:26] <hggdh> on ~/.cache/lp_credentials, the user has to rm the cached permission
[18:27] <hggdh> so that next run apport-collect will drive a new authorisation request
[18:27] <WeatherGod> is that a particular line in that file, or should he just remove it?
[18:28] <hggdh> just remove it, and do it again. It is a text file, but some data there cannot be changed unilatereally
[18:28] <WeatherGod> ok, will do
[18:30] <WeatherGod> oh, and I like the improvements to the HowToTriage page
[18:30] <hggdh> good ;-) the pages are free to be edit by anyone
[18:31] <WeatherGod> I am gonna look through and try out those tools
[18:32] <WeatherGod> I only have one of the firefox plugins right now
[18:32] <WeatherGod> I do have a comment about the "classes"...
[18:32] <WeatherGod> the IRC text in a browser is pretty bad
[18:32] <hggdh> meaning?
[18:32] <WeatherGod> you have the time stamps and the user names, but no formatting
[18:33] <WeatherGod> reading this stuff in Pidgin is easy because of the colors and formatting
[18:34] <WeatherGod> maybe there might be some sort of grep/sed command that could edit the IRC text and add formatting
[18:34] <hggdh> well, the IRC logs are usually saved in text format
[18:34] <hggdh> but I guess it would be pretty easy to write a formatter for them
[18:34] <WeatherGod> yeah...
[18:35] <WeatherGod> if one doesn't exist already
[18:35] <hggdh> and then we could provide a formatted (*and* cleaned) option, and the raw one
[18:35] <WeatherGod> keep it simple... have a link to the log page
[18:35] <WeatherGod> and display the pretty one with all the wiki marks
[18:36] <hggdh> it is probable that the folks at #ubuntu-classroom might have something like that
[18:36] <WeatherGod> maybe... I'll head over there and see if anyone is around
[19:03] <WeatherGod> so, hggdh, how do we want to modify these pages... do we want to start with just adding a link to the pretty html pages?
[19:11] <yofel_> hm, good idea. What I especially like is that you can reference the times in the html log by just appending #tHH:MM to the link (or just click on the time on the log page)
[19:14] <WeatherGod> yofel_, oooh, that is nice
[19:18] <hggdh> WeatherGod: how about making the pretty ones the default, and linking the raw ones?
[19:20] <WeatherGod> ok, but are we displaying the html ones in the wiki page?
[19:21] <WeatherGod> consider this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekhardy/ReportBugs2
[19:21] <WeatherGod> are we going to edit this page to show the html (somehow) and have a link at the top to the raw page?
[19:22] <yofel> hm,  is that even possible in the wiki?
[19:22] <WeatherGod> I remember  something about a limited class of html markup being possible in wikipedia
[19:22] <WeatherGod> but highly discouraged
[19:23] <yofel> yay, found a wiki bug
[19:23] <WeatherGod> oh?
[19:24] <yofel> the german translation for the edition help links to the German links. like 'http://wiki.ubuntu.com/SyntaxReferenz'
[19:24] <yofel> which doesn't exits
[19:24] <yofel> *exist
[19:25] <jmarsden> yofel: That's not a bug, now you have the opportunity to create that page and practice your German :)
[19:25] <yofel> 'http://wiki.ubuntu.com/SyntaxReference' would be the right one
[19:25] <yofel> jmarsden: ahh... nice err.... feature
[19:25] <WeatherGod> see, its not a bug... its a feature!
[19:26] <yofel> might as well make me a  note to do that tomorrow...
[19:26] <yofel> hm, rather like the next week...
[19:27] <WeatherGod> meh, just run google translate on it, and let the Germans figure it out...
[19:27] <WeatherGod> :-P
[19:28] <yofel> WeatherGod: haha, I somehow get the feeling that using google translate on a syntax reference would be a bad idea ^^
[19:28] <WeatherGod> actually, you know... that isn't that bad of an idea...
[19:29] <WeatherGod> think about it... if someone is surfing wiki pages, and encounters a page that isn't available in their language...
[19:30] <WeatherGod> then why shouldn't it provide an auto-translated version from one of the more active versions in the  other languages, and make it available for users to fix
[19:30] <yofel> I still think that auto-translation would be bad
[19:30] <yofel> but I would like to have a link to the original one
[19:31] <yofel> meh, lemme switch my wiki language to english
[19:31] <WeatherGod> well, of course the auto-translation would be bad... but at least it provides a jumping point
[19:31] <WeatherGod> of course... you would need to make it obvious that it was auto-translated
[19:32] <yofel> er... not supported? o.O
[19:32] <yofel> (changing language)
[19:32] <WeatherGod> maybe it is using the browser id string?
[19:32] <jmarsden> WeatherGod: I'm not convinced.  Many technical people use English as a second language, and their ability to understand a correct English page is better than their ability to understand an incorect (Google-translated) German/French/Spanish/Russian/etc page).  If people do want an autotranslated version they can use Google to get one...
[19:32] <yofel> yep, and that's the only thing it supports
[19:33]  * yofel goes diggin through the ffx settings
[19:34] <WeatherGod> jmarsden, that is true... I guess I am a bit sheltered with english being my only fluent language
[19:34] <WeatherGod> although, I can read bits and pieces of various european languages
[19:35] <yofel> better :)
[19:35] <WeatherGod> I guess I am just used to finding everything in English and never looking in other languages
[19:35] <WeatherGod> yofel, so it was the browser string?
[19:36] <yofel> WeatherGod: yep, the wiki settings even says '<Browser preset>'. But that's a bit... annoying
[19:36] <jmarsden> I grew up in Germany, spent years in the Philippines, etc etc.  I can (to some degree, not 100% fluent) speak/read French, German, Tagalog, Spanish and a very little Russian :)  As well as my native English.  I often read those multilingual instruction booklets in a random language just for the fun of it, instead of reading the English bit :)
[19:37] <WeatherGod> heh
[19:37] <WeatherGod> and that would make you a nerd...
[19:37] <WeatherGod> :-P
[19:38] <WeatherGod> yofel, I definitely hate websites that modify their behavior based on the browser string
[19:38] <WeatherGod> setting defaults, that's fine, but refusing to change the language is ridiculous
[19:38] <yofel> well, I can live with it as long as it's configurable. Not in this case
[19:38] <WeatherGod> I had a bit of a fight with Microsoft recently for their update to Exchange 2010
[19:39] <WeatherGod> they also read the browser string, and will force the user into a particular mode for their webmail
[19:39] <yofel> ...
[19:39] <WeatherGod> well, they didn't recognize Shiretoko
[19:39] <WeatherGod> took me an entire week to figure that one out
[19:40] <WeatherGod> Microsoft was telling me for the longest time that they don't want to support those browsers...
[19:40] <WeatherGod> I pointed out that even Gmail allows me to log in using eLinks
[19:40] <WeatherGod> that shut them up
[19:41] <yofel> hehe
[19:42] <WeatherGod> don't know what happened though... by then, all my fellow students having trouble modified their browser strings to pretend to be Firefox 3.5
[19:42] <WeatherGod> but, damn, it felt good to stick it to them
[19:43] <nigel_nb> oh hai WeatherGod
[19:43]  * WeatherGod waves
[19:43] <WeatherGod> nigel_nb, how long without sleep are you going now?
[19:43] <nigel_nb> WeatherGod: something like 1 hour
[19:43] <WeatherGod> oh, good
[19:44] <WeatherGod> yofel, so we kinda got off on a tangent...
[19:44] <WeatherGod> what do we want to do about those pages?
[19:45] <yofel> hm, lemme get to actually read the wiki help...
[19:55] <nigel_nb> hggdh: sorry about lst nght
[19:55] <hggdh> nigel_nb: no problem, figured you had an issue
[19:56] <nigel_nb> my laptop's battery was dead
[19:56] <nigel_nb> power went out
[19:56] <yofel> hm, can't find a way to embed another html page now. Maybe we should keep the raw log on the main page and put a 'Colored Log' link above it?
[19:56] <nigel_nb> and my screen just blacked out
[19:56] <nigel_nb> to answer your earlier question hggdh, I'm a computer student, I know a "little bit" of C++
[19:57] <hggdh> nigel_nb: ok
[19:57] <hggdh> nigel_nb: the point I was trying to make is that we do not have enough to work on that bug
[19:57] <nigel_nb> ah
[19:57] <hggdh> it is clear that empathy/PA is aborting on an assertion
[19:58] <nigel_nb> what I wanted to know was, how do i get the user to run a trace?
[19:58] <hggdh> but without the code path, it is difficult
[19:58] <hggdh> so
[19:58] <WeatherGod> yofel... that is what I am thinking for now
[19:58] <hggdh> nigel_nb: if the user is not confortable with low-level debug work, it will be difficult
[19:59] <nigel_nb> hggdh: but we can't really ignore, we've got some serious flames recently
[19:59] <nigel_nb> WeatherGod: did u do something about yday's flame?
[19:59] <hggdh> nigel_nb: because the OR needs to download the PA, empathy, and (probably) GTK debug packages
[20:00] <hggdh> and then run it under GDB, with a breakpoint set on the assertion
[20:00] <nigel_nb> ah, a pain
[20:00] <hggdh> yes
[20:00] <WeatherGod> nigel_nb, looks like hddgh took care of it
[20:00] <nigel_nb> awesome :)
[20:00] <WeatherGod> doesn't anybody use ddd anymore?
[20:00] <nigel_nb> ddd?
[20:00] <hggdh> :-) sometimes I do
[20:00] <hggdh> and insight
[20:00] <WeatherGod> haven't tried insight
[20:01] <WeatherGod> any good?
[20:01] <nigel_nb> so what do I do on the bug?
[20:01] <hggdh> ddd is a graphical option for a debug session
[20:01] <nigel_nb> oh
[20:01] <hggdh> nigel_nb: right now -- set it to PA, and you could check if someone with PA experience can suggest something
[20:01] <hggdh> this may be known, already
[20:01] <nigel_nb> daniel?
[20:02] <hggdh> nigel_nb: what was the bug #?
[20:02] <hggdh> Yes, Dan comes to mind, poor guy
[20:02] <nigel_nb> bug 492136
[20:02] <hggdh> bloody ubot4
[20:02] <nigel_nb> urgg
[20:03] <nigel_nb> still trouble with the bot
[20:03] <WeatherGod> how do these bots break?  makes no sense
[20:03] <hggdh> maco, any suggestions/ knowledge you can impart on us re. https://launchpad.net/bugs/492136
[20:03] <hggdh> ?
[20:04] <hggdh> we upgraded LP, this may have something to do with it
[20:04] <nigel_nb> ah
[20:04] <nigel_nb> hggdh: btw, upstream developer replied that its not an upstream bug
[20:05] <hggdh> eh?
[20:05] <hggdh> looking
[20:05] <maco> hggdh: no idea. thats the version that was in -proposed a couple weeks ago right? it was supposed to fix a bunch of the other crashes but maybe was not complete enough?
[20:06] <maco> if its not a bug in empathy's code....could be a bug in one of the libraries its built against. thatd be sucky to track down...
[20:06] <hggdh> yeah... the hell of it is that it is going down on an assertion failure, so no crash -- and no apport niceness
[20:06] <maco> i hate assert()  ><
[20:07] <WeatherGod> what's wrong with assert()s... I like them
[20:07] <hggdh> WeatherGod: right now it means we do not have a backtrace
[20:07] <WeatherGod> much cleaner than stupid if statements with throws
[20:07] <hggdh> I would rather have the assert() fail with a (say) divide-by-zero, so we would get a BT
[20:08] <WeatherGod> well, there should be a tool that could build a stack trace upto an expected assert failure
[20:08] <WeatherGod> some sort of profiler thing, maybe
[20:08] <hggdh> there *should*, or there *is*? ;-)
[20:09] <WeatherGod> I don't deal with that sort of programming... I just would have expected one to exist
[20:09] <WeatherGod> I mean, we can profile code
[20:09] <WeatherGod> how hard is it to use that profile to build a live stacktrace?
[20:10] <hggdh> pretty hard. We do not necessarily have the code path, and it may be split in multiple threads
[20:10] <WeatherGod> eww, yeah, that would be an issue
[20:10] <hggdh> ah well. I will download the PA source, and see what is happening there
[20:11] <nigel_nb> hggdh: I've changed the package and commented, for now
[20:11] <hggdh> nigel_nb: thank you
[20:11] <nigel_nb> looks like this is too big for me to handle
[20:11] <nigel_nb> but I'd like to learn though :)
[20:12] <WeatherGod> nigel_nb, but isn't it fun, though?
[20:12] <nigel_nb> WeatherGod: depends on your definition of fun
[20:13] <WeatherGod> yeah, well... I like pain and suffering... that's why I am a grad student
[20:14] <nigel_nb> haha
[20:14] <nigel_nb> this is the most fun that i get to have
[20:14] <hggdh> nigel_nb: I marked it incomplete, and added a question to the OR
[20:15] <nigel_nb> hggdh: :) tks
[20:16] <hggdh> welcome
[20:16] <nigel_nb> i gotta get back to "pretend" to work
[20:16] <nigel_nb> lazy saturday nite ;)
[20:17] <dtchen> well, b in that case is NULL
[20:17] <dtchen> but yes, I need a bt
[20:17] <dtchen> and with my PA hat on, I really need it to be reproduced in 0.9.21 from the ubuntu-audio-dev PPA
[20:18] <hggdh> ah, this is good! nigel_nb ^^
[20:18] <WeatherGod> dtchen, any sort of tricks to get a bt from a failed assert?
[20:18] <hggdh> and there are two different codepaths to pa_memblock_acquire :-(
[20:19] <nigel_nb> dtchen: that was fast work
[20:19] <nigel_nb> hggdh: so whats our next step?
[20:19] <WeatherGod> nigel_nb, daniel's debug-fu is strong
[20:19] <hggdh> nigel_nb: as Daniel pointed out, ask the OR to install the PA from the PPA
[20:19] <maco> daniel's been doing this sort of craziness for >10 years
[20:20] <dtchen> ooh
[20:20] <maco> dtchen: pssst where are you?
[20:20] <nigel_nb> maco: i guess he's seen it all
[20:20] <dtchen> it has to be through pa_memexport_put()
[20:20] <dtchen> the other path will bail immediately due to prior identical asserts
[20:21] <hggdh> yes indeed, did not get that far
[20:21] <dtchen> anyhow, that's my guess
[20:21] <WeatherGod> dtchen, one person's guess is another person's expert opinion
[20:22] <dtchen> well, we're really only surmising until there's a bt
[20:22] <nigel_nb> so, baseline is, we need a BT
[20:22] <dtchen> however, if we want a bt, he'll need to use Karmic's PA not the PPA's
[20:23] <dtchen> unless he installs all the -dbg
[20:23] <hggdh> dtchen: it will not help, since there is no apport involvement
[20:23] <dtchen> I guess I should link our gdb pulseaudio instructions on the wiki
[20:24] <hggdh> so the OR will have to manually install all needed dbgsym/dbg
[20:24] <hggdh> may I humbly ask you to? ;-)
[20:24] <dtchen> yeah, waiting for a very slow web browser
[20:28] <hggdh> an, interesting. there is this 'shm_open() failed" just before the error
[20:28] <hggdh> and *if* the code path is coming from pastream.c, then it *needs* shm
[20:33] <dtchen> could also ask the reporter to use enable-shm = no in /etc/pulse/daemon.conf (or ~/.pulse/daemon.conf)
[20:35] <nigel_nb> I gotta go hggdh, later
[20:44] <WeatherGod> I am having difficulty with setting my lp-login for bzr...
[20:44] <WeatherGod> keeps saying that the url is permanetly redirected to another one
[20:45] <WeatherGod> oh, wait... I think I know what it is
[20:46] <WeatherGod> heh, it doesn't like the aliases
[20:50] <hggdh> dtchen: will ask, thank you
[20:52] <WeatherGod> is there any particular reason why bzr is at version 1.13 in Jaunty?
[20:53] <hggdh> perhaps because this was the released version
[20:55] <WeatherGod> ok, so there probably isn't any limiting reason why I can't go and grab a more recent version?
[20:56] <hggdh> apart from having breakage from incompatible API/ABIs, no
[20:56] <WeatherGod> well, there is only one bzr repo that I want, so I am not worried about any others
[20:57] <WeatherGod> unless you mean package dependencies?
[20:57] <WeatherGod> guess I should just give it a shot
[20:57] <dtchen> I'm using 2.1.0+b1+4865+131~9.04 from the nightly for jaunty, but that's because I had an earlier problem and was asked to test a snap
[20:58] <dtchen> (and subsequently forgot to deactivate the deb. Oops. Not really an issue, though.)
[20:58] <WeatherGod> ok
[20:59] <WeatherGod> btw, has anyone here tried both bzr and git?
[20:59] <hggdh> so you should be good to go. Anyway, if you *had* a problem, all you would need to do would be reinstall the official
[20:59] <WeatherGod> does anyone have a preference/
[20:59] <WeatherGod> yeah
[20:59] <hggdh> I use git for some upstream packages (mostly Gnome and GNU)
[21:00] <hggdh> it is your choice, I do not tend either way
[21:01] <WeatherGod> I have been using svn
[21:01] <WeatherGod> not that I have problems with it... just curious if there is anything better
[21:01] <hggdh> theoretically, both git and bzr are better than svn
[21:04] <yofel> what svn has that others don't is that you can make sub-folder checkouts
[21:05] <yofel> other than that I use git most of the time, might learn bzr for launchpad though
[21:06] <WeatherGod> oh, I use sub-folder checkouts all the time
[21:07] <WeatherGod> bzr and git not having that is not very good for me
[21:07] <yofel> WeatherGod: yeah, me too, but since bzr and git copy the whole repository to make it available offline, sub-folder checkouts don't make sense
[21:08] <WeatherGod> I would just like some better/intuitive branching/remerging tools
[21:08] <yofel> WeatherGod: but they still use less hard disk space since they don't need to keep file copies in .svn in every folder
[21:09] <WeatherGod> I guess... still not quite too sure why that precludes sub-folder checkouts
[21:09] <yofel> depends on what you need
[21:09] <WeatherGod> but, they have the entire repo... how is it less space?
[21:09] <yofel> for projects like the kernel, vlc, etc. git is much better
[21:09] <yofel> but when you need sub-folder checkout you could use git-svn
[21:10] <yofel> I use that a lot
[21:10] <WeatherGod> how does that work?
[21:10] <WeatherGod> is that locally git, remotely svn?
[21:10] <yofel> WeatherGod: it imports the svn repository into a local git repository
[21:10] <yofel> WeatherGod: yep
[21:10] <WeatherGod> oooh, that might be nice...
[21:11] <WeatherGod> that way, I don't have to keep reconnecting to my server just to view the file history
[21:11] <yofel> as long as you don't need too many svn:properties it's really nice
[21:12] <WeatherGod> I might look into that, and it probably won't require too much change from my current setup
[21:12] <yofel> and with fetch/rebase you can always keep a linear history
[21:12] <yofel> I haven't yet figured out how to do that with bzr
[21:14] <WeatherGod> cool
[22:17] <yofel> could someone set bug 402188 to triaged? Thx.
[22:17] <yofel> hm... ubot4 still broken?
[22:25] <hggdh> yofel: done. You should subscribe Ubuntu Stabel Release Update also
[22:26] <yofel> hggdh: already did that a month ago
[22:26] <hggdh> oh, I see.
[22:26] <hggdh> And also propose a debdiff for Lucid
[22:28] <yofel> hggdh: it would be better to merge it from debian, the patch is included there with several others
[22:29] <hggdh> yofel: OK. I did not read the comments, is this stated there?
[22:29] <yofel> hggdh: I put a note in the description
[22:30] <hggdh> yofel: thank you. So Lucid is taken care of, the only pending issue is if it would be approved for SRU
[22:30] <yofel> yes
[22:30] <hggdh> for Karmic, of course
[22:31] <hggdh> yofel: thank you
[22:31] <yofel> well, this really is more an annoyance, but if you use gvim from a terminal it really breaks your workflow :/
[22:37] <hggdh> yes, been there, seen it
 sftp-ing 60G takes a looong time