[00:23] but against gfxboot?? === BUGabundo1 is now known as BUGabundo [00:30] hggdh: I know, struck me as strange. But that I could find, that is it. Open to suggestions! [00:30] oops. bbl === asac_ is now known as asac [02:34] I need some guidance. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Upstream/OpenOffice says "Before forwarding a bug upstream you MUST first determine which upstream is responsible for the bug. Thus you must be able to reproduce the bug. After reproducing the bug on the Ubuntu version, which uses Go-OO ooo-build, you must also test the Sun version. If it is reproducible on the Sun version then file the bug in the Sun bug tracker. With Sun [02:34] bugs make certain to state that you tested on their build, or they will likely close your bug without even looking at it. If it is not reproducible on the Sun version and you believe it is likely not a Debian/Ubuntu specific issue then file the bug in the Novell bug tracker. ". [02:35] I am happy to test the bug to confirm bug #492182 is a problem with OpenOffice. Should I just load Debian proper and download the source from Novell or is there an easier way to test it? [02:36] If I have some keys (Fn Keys) that that aren't being detected at all; what package should I report this against? [02:36] I would like to correct my grammar. I am happy to confirm bug #492182 is a problem with OpenOffice. Should I just load Debian proper and download the source from Novell or is there an PREFERRED way to test it? [02:38] dogatemycomputer: quiet.. usually active in here.. [02:39] MTecknology: I am not usually present. I'm playing L4D. I figure someone will respond when they are ready. [02:39] dogatemycomputer: what was the question? [02:40] I only have ~5min but maybe I can help [02:41] I need some guidance. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Upstream/OpenOffice says "Before forwarding a bug upstream you MUST first determine which upstream is responsible for the bug. Thus you must be able to reproduce the bug. After reproducing the bug on the Ubuntu version, which uses Go-OO ooo-build, you must also test the Sun version. If it is reproducible on the Sun version then file the bug in the Sun bug tracker. With Sun [02:41] bugs make certain to state that you tested on their build, or they will likely close your bug without even looking at it. If it is not reproducible on the Sun version and you believe it is likely not a Debian/Ubuntu specific issue then file the bug in the Novell bug tracker. ". [02:41] I would like to correct my grammar. I am happy to confirm bug #492182 is a problem with OpenOffice. Should I just load Debian proper and download the source from Novell or is there an PREFERRED way to test it? [02:44] To test that... I'd just install a virtual machine and install suse or something on it [02:44] if the bug occures; it's not debian/ubuntu specific [02:46] i'm building php5 from source... apt-get source php5 && dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -uc worked great... i was able to generate the debs... however, subsequent dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -uc seems to invokes a unpatch task in debian/rules... and it always fails at unpatching suhosin.patch... since this is my 1st attempt at building a package from source... am i possibly doing something wrong? i'm on karmic [02:46] pting: #ubuntu-motu can probably help you better [02:46] thanks [02:48] MTecknology: What does 'motu' stand for? [02:48] !motu [02:48] motu is short for Masters of the Universe. The brave souls who maintain the packages in the Universe section of Ubuntu. See http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU [02:51] MTecknology: Thanks! [02:52] np [03:18] hggdh: there? [03:19] here [03:19] ah [03:20] I need help with that bug I spoke to you earlier about [03:20] I was at work and couldn't do anything with that, coz i had a meeting just about then [03:21] which one was the bug? [03:22] bug 492136 [03:22] oh, the bot is silent [03:23] ah, OK [03:23] so, what can I do for you? [03:25] its a pulse audio bug [03:25] looks like it is related to PA, yes [03:25] there are some things here [03:25] (1) empathy is aborting, not crashing (so it seems) [03:26] (2) we need a stacktrace, or a debug run [03:26] stdout/stderr output is not really enough to pin down this [03:26] how do i stacktrace? [03:26] heh [03:26] :( [03:27] first -- can you repeat it? [03:27] nope [03:27] works beautifully for me [03:27] so he has to do it [03:27] ah well. I had to ask ;-) [03:27] hum [03:27] :) [03:28] one way would be to run empathy under gdb, and set a breakpoint on pulsecore/memblock.c:451 [03:28] but all necessary debug symbols *must* be installed [03:28] I'm embarassed to say that I'm still lost [03:28] :-) [03:28] no worry [03:29] here's the deal: we know that -- at least for the OR -- empathy aborts on a video call [03:29] yep [03:30] also, the stdout/stderr is nice enough to tell us it is aborting at memblock.c, line 451 (for the running PA libs) [03:30] this is where an assertion -- 'b', as the output -- is failing [03:31] so we should be able to see an assert statement at this line 451 [03:31] (you would have to download the source of PA that is in use to really see it) [03:32] so, knowing all that, one should be able to set a breakpoint on gdb to trigger on this assert failure [03:32] but this can be either a PA issue, or an empathy one (still) [03:33] but the thing is we would need to look at the PA source to know what is happening there [03:33] nigel_nb: are you, per chance, a programmer? [03:43] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+source/fglrx-installer/+bug/440233 <-- this is why ati sucks, I haven't been able to play 1080p movies since karmic fresh install === _stink__ is now known as _stink_ [04:56] hggdh: I'm so sorry, today has just been unlucky [04:56] just not able to have a proper conversation... [04:56] power got busted, and the router went dead [04:58] hggdh: I guess you're away, we'll talk in the morning [05:16] very angry rant on a high-profile bug report... [05:17] bug 464591 [05:21] hgghd, I figure maybe someone higher up should respond or deal with it... [05:22] hggdh, --^ [05:22] can't spell this late at night [05:23] essentially, Bryce originally marked this one as "Won't Fix" because the original reporter said he was using the proprietary nvidia drivers [05:24] then, when it became clear that it wasn't proprietary drivers being used, but mixed up home-baked kernels, he changed it to Invalid [05:25] now this guy chimed in with a long rant saying that we are basically telling users to "F--- Off" [05:25] and that we are mis-using the labels [05:26] WeatherGod: that is one heck of a rant [05:26] just finished reading it [05:26] its plain rude :( [05:27] yeah, and completely smacks of ignorance [05:27] yeah [05:27] if he read the technical implication of the statuses, he would get an idea [05:27] especially in light of Bryce's very useful posting pointing people to appropriate reports [05:28] he has some amazing patience [05:28] remember the guy who wrote to the mailing list [05:28] well, I think he knows the correct implications, he is asserting that we weren't justifying them [05:28] which? [05:28] something about qmail and thunderbird? [05:28] oh, I saw that, I wasn't sure what was going on there [05:29] yesterday was a bit busy for me [05:29] he just didnt understand that the reporter is supposed to change the status from incomplete to new when he gave additional info [05:29] he didn't, and the bug kept expiring [05:29] he got mightily pissed off and ranted to the whole bug squad [05:29] thankfully hggdh__ replied to it [05:30] ah [05:30] well, I don't think it is immediately obvious... [05:30] I know [05:31] i was speaking to micah about it [05:31] I tend to take it on myself to set it to new if a person replied to one of my questions [05:31] me too [05:31] the problem is that bug reports can easily become echo chambers [05:32] and people think that by yelling really loudly in an inactive bug report magically gets people listening [05:32] and then when nothing happens, they get angrier [05:32] true [05:33] we need to have a clear document which people can refer to while reporting bugs [05:33] and other people post blog listings, which increases traffic to that bug for everyone else but the maintainers [05:33] we do have it [05:33] but people should know [05:33] and people are blogging about not getting bugs fixed! [05:33] yeah... [05:34] actually, what we probably really need is some sort of "reflag" feature... [05:34] reflag? [05:34] if your bug report seems to be inactive for a while... then maybe the user could push some sort of button that puts it back at the top of the RSS feed [05:35] it requires that the OR cares enough about the but [05:35] bug [05:35] micah was suggestign letting them know they can come here and ask [05:35] yeah... we get what... one or two a day [05:35] probably, we could add a link to connect them to freenode webchat and bug room [05:35] that might be an idea [05:35] you know, as part of the canned response [05:35] so they can know, any doubts, people are always here live to help them [05:35] I just hate to see this room turn into the #ubuntu room [05:36] I know [05:36] but just an idea [05:36] have you ever tried going in there? [05:36] I used to help in there :P [05:36] I can't read fast enough [05:36] until my eyes got tired [05:36] you poor, poor thing... [05:36] when I reported my first bug, I came in here [05:36] asked micah and then reported [05:36] helped a lot [05:37] yeah... works pretty nicely... [05:37] helped out a guy the other day with networking issues [05:37] so..in conclusion, it would be nice to have people come here [05:37] but the problem is, it would be a mess here [05:37] we'd need a new channel just to do our discussions or we'd need a channel for guys to help others file bugs [05:38] but that would again a copy of #ubuntu [05:38] all these ideas have pros and cons [05:38] yea [05:38] some major cons [05:38] I know [05:38] I'm just thinking aloud [05:38] for something good that might strike either of us [05:39] my other idea is to discourage adding to other people's reports [05:39] +100 to that one [05:39] I say, always file new reports [05:39] I personally think it is better for them to file a bug, maybe note that it might be a dupe of something else and let us link them [05:39] if its a dup, we'll mark it thta way [05:40] exactly my point :) [05:40] problem is that other bug report systems work opposite that [05:40] like gnome? [05:40] and openoffice [05:40] but they're not like us [05:40] no, they aren't [05:40] for better and for worse [05:40] they dont have much of hardware/driver dependent issues [05:41] and most of our major problems revolve around sound or display [05:41] and configuration issues [05:41] yea [05:41] software bugs are linked upstream and upstream works on them pretty fast [05:42] I still find it difficult, though to really wade through these reports... [05:42] my major problem is that people often google their way into an LP bug report and add unrelated comments [05:42] yeah [05:42] dtchen, thats something we were talkin about [05:42] dtchen, btw... I bow to your debug-fu [05:43] u'd have major trouble with that in sound [05:43] coz every thing is device/driver specific which means thousands of combinations [05:43] yeah... "Hey, I have no sound, too!" [05:43] and adding to the same bug would cause so many problems [05:44] and confusion as other newbies try out bad solutions [05:44] WeatherGod: daniel had blogged about a flame recently [05:44] which? [05:44] the second of Craig's? [05:44] yep [05:45] every job has its ups and downs, as per me, the downs for working with bug squad is attitude of the reports :( sadly [05:46] yeah, but then there are are real nice people... like Doris [05:46] I dont mind wading through reports, but showing restraint when everyone excepts u too be solving them is tough :) [05:46] solving their problem I mean [05:46] a 70 year old women I am dealing with that loves to tell me everything [05:46] yeah [05:46] I know about good users [05:47] seen plenty :) [05:47] and the fact that we actually solve issues is good [05:48] yeah, I sometimes wonder how daniel does it :) [05:48] dtchen, speaking of confusion by users... I swear the one user I am dealing with screwed up his system by uninstalling pulseaudio [05:49] and somehow messed up the reinstallation [05:50] dtchen: does ubuntu audio team deal with pulseaudio bugs too? [05:50] I've got an empathy bug where pulse audio might be the culprit, but I need to confirm first [05:50] WeatherGod: happens sometimes. In those cases I ask for the symptom(s) to be reproduced from a desktop/live cd. [05:51] hmm, that's a good idea... probably should do that next [05:52] nigel_nb: all audio symptoms in the stack, i.e., linux/alsa-driver, alsa-lib, alsa-plugins, pulseaudio, phonon, libsdl1.2, libao, jack-audio-connection-kit, libffado, etc. [05:52] dtchen, and you don't get paid for any of that? [05:52] nope. [05:52] * WeatherGod bows [05:52] I've done this since Hoary [05:52] * nigel_nb bows too [05:53] only 2 of you? [05:53] Hoary? [05:53] Ubuntu 5.04 [05:54] 9 + 1 :O [05:54] yeah... don't know how you have been dealing with this [05:55] so, how do we want to deal with the ranter I was talking about? [05:56] I am thinking of a cannon... [05:56] you could probably point out the reasons why it was marked so [05:56] but that would increase the rants [05:56] what happens when you link to the code of conduct in a bug report gone bad? [05:57] they never signed the code of conduct [05:57] is that what they say? [05:57] and it still doesn't address that reporter's feelings [05:57] you dont need to sign CoC to report a bug [05:57] the feelings are real, regardless of how misguided they are [05:57] I agree there, we need to adress their issues and not our feelings on it [05:58] something clear and unoffensive [05:58] which would largely be a clarification of what Bryce did [05:59] which bug? [05:59] I just need to see how to defuse him [05:59] it's worth revisiting the entire history [05:59] bug 464591 [05:59] I suspect the main thing here is that "one issue, one bug report" would *really* help. If each person in that bug report filed their own bug describing their own situation clearly, many could be helped. Lumped together like that, it's hard to handle. [05:59] yeah, I can give you a summary, if you like [06:00] jmarsden: that would be the best! [06:00] yeah, and it is more likely for us to see a prominent problem [06:00] like how people have done for ubuntuone [06:00] exactly! [06:00] there are about 30+ dupes and we've linked them up [06:00] please, there are more than 30 [06:00] well.. the last time i linked one, it was 30 [06:01] heh [06:01] now its probably more [06:01] but i think the main thing here is the apport-collect [06:01] which gets triggered when ubuntuone crashes [06:01] yeah [06:01] and people automatically take 5 mins to log them [06:02] for display issues, everyone uses the forum and google [06:02] and end up on the same bug :( [06:02] But in the case of 464591, it's hard to expect a user seeing a flickery screen no way to use their machine to use an automated reporting tool from it. [06:02] o.o [06:02] that is true... that's what launchpad is for [06:03] jmarsden: do u think a brainstorm of a GUI program would help? [06:03] something that helps users select the package they are going to file a bug and enter the description right there [06:03] and direct report it to launchpad with very little effort [06:03] isn't that apport? [06:03] yea, but that doesn't work for everything does it? [06:03] Well, only if the user can run it with the PC in whatever state they got it into... I suspect many of these users are rebooting into Windows to file their bug or to search for help. [06:04] oh, yeah, silly me [06:04] yeah, and can't expect them to know about apport-cli [06:04] WeatherGod: what i just envisioned was something link system > report bugs [06:04] select package from drop down [06:04] and enter the description there [06:05] and probably documentation by the bug squad there on how to write description [06:05] I'm just dreaming away...hoping I hit something [06:05] I was thinking something like a standardize reporting system where there are all sorts of automated/standardized information thhat is used [06:06] then, users can add additional information as they see fit [06:06] yeah, built on top of apport [06:06] so, for example... the program would automatically tag the report with the architecture, and the desktop and the kernel and OS release [06:07] apport does it [06:07] and maybe general category like "display", "sound", "keyboard" [06:07] I think what we need is a gui version of apport that doesn't scare newbie's away [06:07] it collects it, but does it 'tag' it? [06:07] and all installed programs that we support [06:07] it tags archtecture I think [06:07] donno [06:07] yeah, asking for packages is probably wrong [06:08] it should ask for category [06:08] the description should mention the program if they know [06:08] yeah, it does sometimes tag architecture, but not the other info [06:08] a gui interface would probably help a lot to solve our issues [06:09] there is ubuntu-bug [06:09] it is in the application menu [06:09] but it needs the user to know the package [06:09] right [06:09] so, change that behavior [06:09] u can't expect new users to know that sound is alsa-base or display is x [06:09] categorize user reported bugs by topic [06:10] have u reported upstream gnome bug? [06:10] seen their interface? I love it [06:10] yeah, I think that would be by-far... the most beneficial thing [06:10] category, subcategory and then description [06:10] yeah... I think it is ok, but it is still intimidating [06:10] have you tried openoffice... [06:10] nope [06:10] it is downright scary [06:11] gnome upstream is very simple [06:11] and clean [06:11] even I, who have been using open office for 5 years couldn't figure out the right place to report [06:11] I like how clean and simple launchpad's interface is [06:11] whoa! [06:12] gnome is like launchpad on a diet :p [06:12] oh btw, WeatherGod you'd commented on one compiz bug, remember? [06:12] which? [06:13] bug 492271 [06:13] there have been a few [06:13] any suggestions as to what next? [06:14] lemme look that one up... [06:14] ubot4 not working seem eerily strange [06:14] nigel_nb: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :) [06:14] I know... I can't even give him a /msg [06:14] ah, there it is [06:15] I could [06:15] just /msg ubot4 bug 492271 [06:15] a query opens with his msg for me [06:15] yeah... it was just slow as heck [06:16] ok, this one... [06:17] well, I haven't gotten many takers on my call for them to make their own bug reports [06:17] I think I only have two [06:17] I was right... they were definitely different bugs [06:18] huh? [06:18] this bug report originally came from one of the mega reports where everyone kept saying "me, too!" [06:18] the reporter only talks about compiz [06:18] ohh [06:19] great to know someone's going the right way [06:19] I had to tell everyone to refille and subscribe me [06:19] I needed to categorize and group the symptoms [06:19] thats how you ended up there, ah! [06:19] different people had freezes at different times [06:19] yes [06:19] and different levels of freezes [06:19] I did wonder [06:20] isn't this one coz the driver is not able to handle compiz? [06:20] I have no clue what to do for them... but they stand a better chance this way [06:20] no, I don't think so [06:20] but what do we do, set to confirmed? [06:20] but, he could always turn off compiz [06:20] hehe [06:21] compiz is one major eye candy to switch to linux [06:21] never used it myself [06:21] poor EeePC [06:22] I disliked jaunty just because I couldn't use compiz [06:22] I use linux because of a superior development platform [06:22] vi + make + gcc is awesome [06:23] same here [06:23] linux + apache +php [06:23] plus, Windows refused to reinstall on my computer awhile back [06:23] grabbed RedHat and tried it out [06:23] I technically have a dual-boot system [06:23] never looked back [06:23] but been ages since I logged into the windows partition [06:23] Windows free for 5 years [06:24] its just there coz I regret paying for it [06:24] hehe [06:24] apparently when u buy your computer [06:24] if u dont agree to the eula, you can get your money back [06:25] yeah... that's is going by the wayside lately [06:25] nigel_nb: with varying success [06:25] I build my own or buy linux laptops [06:25] maco: anyway, I'm stuck with widows vista [06:25] hence my EeePC [06:25] learned my lesson [06:25] only buy dell/ibm [06:25] dell gives ubuntu [06:25] and ibm gives No OS option [06:26] that's good [06:26] knew about dell, didn't know ibm did that [06:26] i mean lennovo [06:26] same [06:26] they had the option then, they still do [06:26] its nice to save 3K [06:26] in Indian currency [06:27] about to say... [06:27] on a different note, nice to see you maco :) [06:27] WeatherGod: hehe [06:28] anyway, I am sort of willing to mark that bug as Triaged or Confirmed for now [06:28] at least until I get some more info [06:28] from others, that is [06:28] ah [06:29] maco: can you take a look at a bug report for me [06:31] WeatherGod: have you heard of acer having issues with gnome-power-manager? [06:31] heh, just got another person filing a bug in someone else's report [06:31] maybe... I don't recall anything off the top of my head though [06:32] I usually don't pay too much attention to make/model, though [06:32] I remember vaguely, cant remember where [06:32] there is this bug, which I think has something to do with the hardware [06:33] I guess staying awake for more than 20 hours * could * impair memory [06:36] yeah... getting there for myself [06:36] I gotta sleep [06:37] good night everybody [06:37] night WeatherGod [06:57] Just had an idea... [06:58] WeatherGod: back again? [06:58] as a way to combat bug reports falling through the cracks, what if there was a separate RSS feed for the bug reports that go untouched [06:58] yeah, wanted to flesh this one out [06:58] WeatherGod: there is a link [06:59] oh? [06:59] https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.searchtext=&orderby=-datecreated&field.status%3Alist=New&field.importance%3Alist=Undecided&assignee_option=none&field.assignee=&field.owner=&field.component=1&field.component=2&field.component-empty-marker=1&field.omit_dupes.used=&field.omit_dupes=on&field.has_patch.used=&field.has_no_package.used=&search=Search [06:59] save it into favorites [06:59] that are "the new bugs" [07:00] well, yes, but they are all of the new bugs [07:00] yea, the ones that were not touched [07:01] what about ones that haven't been touched for a few days [07:01] there is one for about to expire bugs [07:01] but thats no action for 60 days [07:01] but, it has to have been touched to be set to incomplete [07:02] let's call them virgin bugs... [07:02] haven't been touched [07:02] the link I gave you are all "new bugs" ones with status new [07:02] (err, let's not go there for various gender-sensitive reasons) [07:02] haha [07:02]