[00:09] <doctormo> BiosElement: Hey there
[00:09] <doctormo> BiosElement: I've looked over your branch, shall we talk?
[00:10] <pleia2> I made a pretty picture!
[00:10] <pleia2> BiosElement: you're welcome to share with doctormo
[00:16] <doctormo> pleia2: Hey, my connection is spotty, can you read this?
[00:16] <pleia2> doctormo: yeah
[00:17] <doctormo> pleia2: Great, so you made a picture?
[00:17] <pleia2> http://princessleia.com/ul/asciidocs.txt
[00:17] <pleia2> compares current two asciidoc proposals
[00:19] <BiosElement> Ahh, hey there doctormo. Didn't notice you come in
[00:20] <doctormo> pleia2: The first is doctormo's, nigel is only working off my example.
[00:20] <pleia2> oh yeah
[00:20] <doctormo> (don't want to drag him in unless he wants to)
[00:20] <BiosElement> We were more refering to just examples of the course.
[00:20]  * pleia2 fixes
[00:20] <doctormo> Ah ok,
[00:21] <BiosElement> pleia2: Fix supplime while you're at it pretty please >.>
[00:21] <pleia2> but the word is too long!
[00:21] <pleia2> okok :)
[00:21] <doctormo> BiosElement: So I get the view that in your example we have /$CLASS/content.txt
[00:21] <BiosElement> haha, I know it is.
[00:21] <BiosElement> doctormo: We have Category/$CLASS/content.txt yes
[00:22]  * pleia2 fixed
[00:22] <BiosElement> Just like your format does
[00:22] <doctormo> BiosElement: And in mine we have /$SECTION/$CLASS/sections/$X/...
[00:22] <BiosElement> Aye.
[00:22] <doctormo> BiosElement: Your branch I just looked at didn't have sections (categories)
[00:22] <doctormo> So I guess the main point to talk about
[00:22] <BiosElement> doctormo: True. It was added as a recent suggestion by pleia2.
[00:23] <doctormo> is why I think the juxterposition of the section content is required
[00:24] <BiosElement> Sounds right.
[00:26] <doctormo> Basically we have a view that says that the content we serve to users who are learning by themselves is different from the content that is lead by the teachers.
[00:27] <doctormo> I believe that by splitting up each section into 4 parts, we can use auto generated content.txt files to compile them into the 2 or 3 flavours which will serve each of these targets.
[00:27] <doctormo> Without having to rewrite every course for online, offline and teacher lead sessions.
[00:27] <doctormo> (which is the problem dinda has, and why she's not keen on being involved any more)
[00:29] <BiosElement> I think the purpose of my content/supplemental folders have confused you. They're not meant to be re-writing the entire course, just the supplemental "book" will have more information for teachers. for example, what to demo, tips on explaining it, faq's and so forth. THings that may not be very useful to someone learning on their own.
[00:29] <doctormo> I don't want to write books.
[00:29] <BiosElement> "book" for lack of a better term.
[00:29] <doctormo> document?
[00:29] <BiosElement> Aye, document.
[00:30] <doctormo> The problem with this view is that it assumes that the _form_ the student content takes is the same regardless of target, it assumes that only supplimental teacher information is required.
[00:30] <doctormo> I don't believe that's the case.
[00:32] <BiosElement> Not sure I entirely follow you. I gather you mean making different 'flavors' of the document. It seems a little overly complex but then again I don't understand what gain there would be.
[00:32] <cprofitt> doctormo -- pedagogy is different for the mediums.
[00:33] <doctormo> cprofitt: So I'm lead to believe, text, way it's written, even the kinds of words used.
[00:34] <cprofitt> I also agree with BiosElement that we need to have a 'teachers guide' in addition to any 'student' material for teacher lead courses
[00:34] <doctormo> cprofitt: That's agreeing with me
[00:35] <cprofitt> asynchronous and synchronous learning also requires different strategies
[00:35] <BiosElement> cprofitt: Well that is quite true. But I disagree that it's needed. There is no reason a teacher cannot effectively teach from a document aimed at someone learning themselves. Heck, schools do it all the time. Not to say that it's the best example. Again my point may be wrong but I don't seem to be alone in sharing it.
[00:35] <cprofitt> BiosElement: actually the schools I work in do not... there is always a teachers manual unless the teacher developed the curriculum themselves
[00:36] <doctormo> BiosElement: I disagree, I've taught classes and while I'm not an experenced teacher, it's easier to teach along a lesson plan, than a book.
[00:36] <BiosElement> cprofitt: Teachers manual, yes. But even then not always.
[00:36] <BiosElement> Ok...perhaps I've confused you...the format I'm working on does have a teacher doc...
[00:36] <BiosElement> And it's had one from day one.
[00:37] <doctormo> BiosElement: I know, I just don't think it buds at the right place, it forces forking at really low levels, reuse of sections will be hard, even with different descriptive texts.
[00:39] <BiosElement> But wouldn't it be useful to have a teacher doc with "teachers notes" along with the "students document"? Because that's not a problem with either format. I don't see why "reuse" would be difficult.
[00:39] <cprofitt> BiosElement: I do not know ascii doc well enough but I would think having both would be a good thing
[00:40] <BiosElement> cprofitt: It's easily possible.
[00:42] <doctormo> BiosElement: Aye, but in my design the course writer is forced to consider writing notes for every section, when new sections are added, the teachers doc can not be forgotten. In a system where the teachers doc is very seperate, it'll cause them to get out of sync.
[00:42] <pleia2> doctormo: are you seeing this as a workflow issue?
[00:42] <pleia2> having to change to a different directory to put in your teachers doc too, easy to forget...
[00:44] <BiosElement> Another arguement could be that the main document shouldn't be overly relient on the teachers docs. Note that this is not to say they should be neglected. Another thought is that I don't think it would always be wise to write the docs at the same time regardless. And even if someone wanted too, would it be too hard to have two folders open? >.>
[00:44] <doctormo> pleia2: I can't tell if your being critical of structure 2 or misunderstanding structure 1.
[00:44] <pleia2> doctormo: I am misunderstanding all of this, apparently :)
[00:45] <BiosElement> pleia2: I think we're all misunderstanding things today >.>
[00:45] <pleia2> I was being critical of structure 2 though
[00:45] <doctormo> BiosElement: What I'm trying to breed is a sense that each section in a class-subject is treated as it's own whole little part, modular, put together they can form a class.
[00:46] <pleia2> (sorry BiosElement)
[00:46] <doctormo> This means that a writer can go in, write or rewrite one tiny section and not have to worry about the rest of the course/class/etc
[00:46] <pleia2> also means they can bzr checkout just that tiny bit
[00:47] <pleia2> no worries about conflict if someone is working on 04/ and you're working on 07/
[00:47] <pleia2> right?
[00:47] <doctormo> pleia2: correct,
[00:47] <doctormo> pleia2: It means that merging is less of a problem
[00:48] <BiosElement> doctormo: While I strongly agree that keeping things modular is good, I think it's a little much to focus on it so much. I don't see a huge need to mix/match when for the most part only the very basics will be shared between courses. Although again I note that I may be mistaken.
[00:48] <BiosElement> And as for merging...how is folder 04 different then sec04.txt >.< For that at least, it's neutral ground.
[00:49] <doctormo> BiosElement: Agreed
[00:49] <pleia2> BiosElement: well you'd have examples/sec04.txt and content/section04.txt
[00:49] <pleia2> you can't just check out content/04/
[00:49] <pleia2> I mean, in yours
[00:49] <BiosElement> pleia2: bazaar shouldn't care either way. And why would you want to...It seems kinda pointless.
[00:50] <pleia2> BiosElement: for the leadership document, for example, I could see members of the community running that only checking out the chapters they're assigned to
[00:51] <pleia2> rather than the whole /$SECTION/$CLASS/
[00:52] <BiosElement> Um...perhaps I've missed something but why would be assign people chapters? And regardless, you couldn't test compiles very well without the rest of the chapters.
[00:53] <pleia2> not every course has to be written by one person
[00:53] <doctormo> pleia2: The best way to map it is that in structure 1 you have $section/$class/sections/$x/description.txt and in structure 2 you have $section/$class/description/$x.txt
[00:54] <doctormo> I could remove the sections directory from structure 1 and leave only the sort of the data as the remaining issue.
[00:54] <BiosElement> pleia2: Of course not
[00:54] <pleia2> BiosElement: so that's why different people would work on different chapters
[00:54] <pleia2> my brain hurts :)
[00:55] <BiosElement> It's important people test it before uploading. But if that wasn't important I would admit there was an advantage.
[00:55] <pleia2> and I don't think I'm helping here, can I leave it to you two to hash this out?
[00:56] <BiosElement> Sure, get feeling better pleia2.
[00:56] <pleia2> I don't care which we end up with, as long as it's documented :)
[00:56] <doctormo> pleia2: I think your helping :-)
[00:56] <BiosElement> haha, Well you are helping but you gotta get feeling better to help later >.>
[00:56] <doctormo> pleia2: Your sick?
[00:56] <pleia2> doctormo: yeah, terrible cold, now on antibiotics which are destroying my stomach
[00:56] <pleia2> it's been a terrible week!
[00:57]  * pleia2 is very glad she works from home
[00:58] <pleia2> going to go relax a bit, I'm glad this discussion is happening, thanks guys :)
[00:58]  * pleia2 hugs all around!
[00:58]  * doctormo hugs pleia2
[00:58]  * BiosElement hugs pleia2 also
[00:59] <doctormo> BiosElement: OK, how does this sound, I scrap the sections directory, move all $x dirs into the $class dir, remove all the parent asciidocs and replace them with auto generating files upon build.
[01:00] <doctormo> It'll reduce the number of files to edit, simplify it all round and the scripts should be trival.
[01:01] <doctormo> I'll keep the presentations dir, we'll sort that out later.
[01:02] <doctormo> resources dir just contains any files that aren't built, just copied in, things like example script files, pdfs that we didn't make etc.
[01:02] <BiosElement> It sounds good, but here's a question: would it be easier just to dump the supplemental folders from my layout and do the numbered section folders inside content? Just thinking it migh be less work
[01:03] <BiosElement> Because overall I do like that style, as long as sections are not micro-sized. >.>
[01:03] <doctormo> You end up with the same thing, same work, the only difference is that you end up with the join at a slightly higher pivit which can be used better for scripting and for modular control.
[01:04] <doctormo> The other thing to consider, is that what ever ideas you try out in your branch, I'll be applying them to trunk, think about how to modify trunk to apply your ideas, not just dropping it.
[01:04] <BiosElement> dropping what? trunk? Of course not. >.< Everything can be ported over easily enough
[01:05] <doctormo> Other than that, we're talking about bringing them into the same structure from two different angles.
[01:05] <doctormo> BiosElement: no porting, modification of existing trunk, not wiping out directories and porting your branch into it, that's exactly the same.
[01:06] <doctormo> So intructions to modify existing stuff, a) do this, b) move that c) etc.
[01:06] <BiosElement> Ahh, I think I understand. haha. Well I just made a final commit "backup" per-say. so I'm going to start reformatting my course template now. I'll then toss it over to you and see what changes need made.
[01:07] <BiosElement> I'm the one who pushed for it anyway, so I'm more then happy to do the work. haha
[01:08] <doctormo> Aye aye, well at least I'm confident that all this talk is producing real results :-)
[01:08] <BiosElement> It is. We just have somewhat different styles. haha
[01:11] <doctormo> BiosElement: That's good, we're able to combine them :-D
[01:11] <BiosElement> haha, quite true
[01:11] <doctormo> I have to sleep now, got a train to cach in the morning
[01:11] <BiosElement> Aight, Night doctormo
[01:11] <doctormo> But I'll work on build-get scripts on the train and tomorrow, try and get something interesting.
[01:11] <BiosElement> haha, Sounds good
[01:15] <cprofitt> sorry -- I got distracted guys
[01:17] <BiosElement> cprofitt: Not a problem.
[01:18] <BiosElement> I just pushed the recent update, based on the discussion, to launchpad. As soon as it's done updating I'll post the link.
[01:19] <cprofitt> I read back... it does sound like we made progress...
[01:19] <BiosElement> cprofitt doctormo pleia2: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~williamchambers/ubuntu-learning-materials/asciidoc_format-v2/revision/14
[01:19] <BiosElement> We did.
[01:19] <cprofitt> I am not very familiar with Bzr or Asciidoc so I can't truly appreciate the technical details.
[01:20] <cprofitt> Python... that will help
[01:21] <cprofitt> does asciidoc allow for 'sections' in the text that can be 'excluded' or 'included' in producing the output based on arguments?
[01:24] <cprofitt> the bzr is looking rather self-explanatory
[01:24] <doctormo> cprofitt: that's good, it means it's working.
[01:25] <doctormo> BiosElement: Do you know if sections can be included or exluded? atm I'm going to do this via scripting of the combination of each part into the whole document.
[01:26] <BiosElement> cprofitt doctormo: Yes
[01:26] <BiosElement> In fact I'm including them manually from the core/content.txt file
[01:27] <BiosElement> doctormo: One thing to note with the include statement is you MUST have a blank line between each include statement.
[01:27] <doctormo> BiosElement: If you can show me how to pull that off, email the mailing list with an example or something, then i can work that mechanism in.
[01:28] <BiosElement> doctormo: It already exists.http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Ewilliamchambers/ubuntu-learning-materials/asciidoc_format-v2/annotate/head%3A/Contributing/UCLP/content.txt
[01:28] <BiosElement> It shouldn't be hard to scriptit.
[01:29] <cprofitt> so we can have a document -- single -- with both teacher notes and student content
[01:29] <doctormo> BiosElement: Wait, the ability to include or exclude sections is using the "include" statement, same as I'm already doing?
[01:29] <cprofitt> by splitting them in to sections we can control what is 'compiled' in to the 'output'?
[01:29] <doctormo> cprofitt: We should end up with one publication which includes everything all in one, and another with it spread out between files.
[01:29] <BiosElement> doctormo: Aye. It's kinda a workaround but I've just been manually including them. asciidoc by default only works one file at a time.
[01:30] <cprofitt> and you have a single text file that controls that?
[01:30] <doctormo> BiosElement: Then I'm already using the best way to do this :-) good good.
[01:30] <cprofitt> sounds like a working plan
[01:30] <doctormo> cprofitt: That single file would basically be generated by scripts from a template.
[01:30] <BiosElement> cprofitt: Yes
[01:30] <doctormo> At build time
[01:31] <BiosElement> doctormo: Whenever you get a chance lookover the edit I did to the new class template too. I doubt I got all the changes made the first time around. But I've gotta get going and you need sleep >.<
[01:31] <doctormo> Yes, good, email me!
[03:25] <nigel_nb> hello guys
[03:34] <b_wilson> nigel_nb: 'lo
[05:09] <nigel_nb> pleia2: are you around?
[19:42] <nigel_nb> hello everyone
[19:44] <nigel_nb> pleia2: did u get time to review my branch?
[19:45] <pleia2> nigel_nb: yeah, no tech review so far though
[19:46] <pleia2> doctormo and bioselement are discussing format some
[19:46] <nigel_nb> writing style and language?
[19:46] <nigel_nb> I just did a guesswork of a format
[19:46] <nigel_nb> since I'm the official guinea pig :P, I hope they straight it out with this branch
[19:47] <nigel_nb> I checked my logs, doctormo told me to leave the format alone since it has to be straightened out when they convert this branch
[19:48] <pleia2> seems fine, but I think there are too many sections
[19:48] <pleia2> I think some of the basic bzr stuff could all be put into one section, instead of split up so much since they can't really stand alone
[19:49] <nigel_nb> but the practical and demonstration might be a bit too long
[19:50] <nigel_nb> I sorta took an example from doctormo's command-line basics
[19:50] <nigel_nb> most of it is practical based, one step at a time
[19:54] <nigel_nb> pleia2: btw, I'm going to merge intro to launchpad and working with launchpad into one section
[19:54] <nigel_nb> so it'll be down to 8
[19:55]  * pleia2 nods
[19:55] <nigel_nb> i did the intro
[19:56] <nigel_nb> and didn't find anything to put in working :P
[20:03] <nigel_nb> I'll try to finish everything before the meeting
[20:03] <nigel_nb> so, it will give sometime to review everytinh
[20:07] <pleia2> great :)
[20:08] <nigel_nb> I'm off 2morrow nite
[20:08] <nigel_nb> so, my social life on sunday night will be on IRC
[20:10] <pleia2> oh! I mailed your card today
[20:10] <pleia2> hopefully it'll get there :)
[20:11] <nigel_nb> oh
[20:11] <nigel_nb> I should get around to doing it on monday
[20:13] <nigel_nb> pleia2: just curious, how many cards did u send out?
[20:13] <pleia2> nigel_nb: probably about 35
[20:14] <pleia2> 6 international
[20:14] <nigel_nb> wow!
[20:15] <pleia2> that's pretty normal :)
[21:48] <nigel_nb> pleia2: just saw the logs of the discussion, do u have any idea what was decided on format?
[21:54] <nigel_nb> doctormo: ping
[21:54] <doctormo> nigel_nb: pong
[21:54] <nigel_nb> just saw logs from last night
[21:54] <nigel_nb> what did u guys decide about format?
[21:55] <doctormo> nigel_nb: It's still very close to what you have, but sections are moved into parent folder.
[21:55] <nigel_nb> no sub folder for sections
[21:55] <nigel_nb> and each file gets numbered indendently?
[21:58] <doctormo> nigel_nb: Each file still goes in a directory number
[21:58] <nigel_nb> i'm still confused
[21:59] <doctormo> so instead of sections/01/description.txt it's just 01/description.txt
[21:59] <nigel_nb> thats messy
[21:59] <doctormo> nigel_nb: Not really, some of the other files are being removed and will be auto generated instead.
[22:00] <nigel_nb> like?
[22:00] <doctormo> nigel_nb: All the root text files, class.txt etc
[22:00] <nigel_nb> whoa
[22:00] <nigel_nb> how does that happen?
[22:02] <doctormo> nigel_nb: scripts
[22:03] <nigel_nb> they're ready?
[22:03] <doctormo> nigel_nb: I worked on them all day
[22:03] <doctormo> but no, I got sick
[22:04] <nigel_nb> oh no!
[22:04] <nigel_nb> you too
[22:07] <nigel_nb> doctormo: do we guys get to see the scripts to test our modules?
[22:07] <doctormo> nigel_nb: yes
[22:08] <nigel_nb> ooooo
[22:08] <nigel_nb> when?
[22:09] <doctormo> pushing now
[22:09] <doctormo> pushed rev 12 in trunk, check it out
[22:09] <nigel_nb> aw heck
[22:09] <nigel_nb> at work
[22:09] <nigel_nb> have to check it out from lp directly
[22:09] <doctormo> in your own time
[22:10] <nigel_nb> I wanna see it now! ;)
[22:10] <nigel_nb> otherwise, i can see it only tonight
[22:10] <nigel_nb> thats like 12 hours away
[22:10] <doctormo> lol, you know how to do it in "your own time" ;-)
[22:11] <nigel_nb> hehe
[22:13] <nigel_nb> doctormo: the builder folder?
[22:16] <nigel_nb> doctormo: looking good, I'll explore tonight
[22:17] <nigel_nb> you'll need to update me on what all changes I have to make