/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/12/08/#ubuntu-devel.txt

ccheneywhen it ate my data was around 2000 i think, and that bug wasn't fixed until around 2007-2008 timeframe00:00
jdongno, it's not "patched"00:00
jdongit's worked around.00:00
crypt-0so it wont eat my data00:00
jdongno, I never said that00:00
ccheneyraid doesn't protect you from a filesystem eating your data  :)00:00
crypt-0(the current versions of XFS in 9.10)00:00
jdongbut fundamentally XFS's journal replay strategy is to zero stale data00:00
ScottKcrypt-0: No one with guarantee any file system won't eat your data00:00
ccheneyjdong: oh ok00:00
crypt-0i know00:00
ScottKIf they do, run.00:00
jdongext3's policy is to leave it stale00:00
jdongbecause stale is likely correct00:01
jdongcoming from an enterprise background, XFS's policy is that stale data can constitute privacy leaks00:01
jdongi.e. it belonged to another file in the past.00:01
crypt-0well i will be creating a new filesystem soon00:01
ccheneyall i remember well was that my fs was filled with a lot of null filled files00:01
ccheneylarge chunks of missing data00:01
crypt-0its EXT3 or XFS....EXT4 just is not there yet.00:02
jdongwith that said, "older" XFS did have a nasty case where the "cp a b; mv b a" atomic-modify workflow could result in "a" being entirely stale on bad shutdown00:02
ccheneymore than i would expect from just the journal unless it was bigger than i would expect00:02
jdongwhich is the biggest source of the "XFS nulled my data" complaints00:02
ScottKext4 is the default on Karmic.  I think it's a reasonable assumption that it was considered reasonably safe.00:02
jdongthat's since then been "worked around" to happen less frequently00:02
ccheneyjdong: i bet i saw that or something similar to that, because it seemed much more than just what would fit in a journal00:02
jdongwith that said, I do find XFS like ext4, because of delayed allocation, very aggressively uses the writeback cache00:03
jdongand a bad shutdown on a modern system with a boatload of RAM can easily result in hundreds of MB of unwritten data to be tossed out00:03
jdongbut no filesystem makes any sorts of *guarantee* this won't happen.00:03
ccheneyjdong: with the ext4 fix for the desktop issues it probably won't trigger data loss like that though i would imagine00:03
crypt-0[bad shutdown] im on a smart UPS00:03
macosince xfs is older, wouldnt it be "ext4, like xfs..."00:03
jdongccheney: delayed allocation still applies.00:03
jdongmaco: eh it's a commutative relationship ;-)00:03
jdongI'm not gonna trace back to the first filesystem to implement delayed allocation00:04
ccheneyjdong: iirc any rename forces a full flush now though, right?00:04
crypt-0well are you saying i should avoid XFS?00:04
jdongcrypt-0: that doesn't stop system freezes, etc00:04
ccheneyand those seem to happen all the time on desktop apps, heh00:04
jdongccheney: rename definitely places a barrier between old and new00:04
jdongand to cross the barrier a flush is needed, yes00:04
crypt-0jdong, i know but i have not *ever* had a system freeze with Linux.00:04
jdongso either the original or the final file will be there, not in between.00:04
jdongcrypt-0: consider yourself very lucky.00:04
jdongcrypt-0: even on servers I manage I've been in the case of needing to hard-power-cycle against my will00:05
jdongI'm not saying you shouldn't use XFS.00:05
jdongI had my primary server on XFS for the past 3 years...00:05
jdongonly recently did I switch it to btrfs to contribute to the testing effort.00:05
jdongnote I do not of course recommend users to do this00:06
crypt-0well, i have had *hardware* related system freezes....like when i boot my external HD at school and someone bumps it....still XFS does not get corrupted00:06
jdongconsider yourself lucky then00:06
jdongparticularly on external USB2 drives (which do not respect barriers)00:06
jdongand on RAID or LVM devices (which do not respect barriers)00:06
crypt-0jdong, so with the current versions of the XFS tolls and kernel module in 9,10 would you consider XFS a stable filesystem?00:06
jdonga bad shutdown on XFS can corrupt its metadata beyond repair.00:06
jdongcrypt-0: I've always considered XFS a stable filesystem00:07
jdongnote the two caveats that I pointed out00:07
crypt-0what filesystem do you recommend for RAID-100:07
jdongdelayed allocation <-> writeback data loss; loss of write barriers <-> full filesystem corruption.00:07
crypt-0i will be using hardware RAID-1 for my next build00:07
jdongI do not have a recommendation if no corruption / data loss on hard shutdown is your goal.00:08
crypt-0and XFS will be on a LVM (encrypted filesystem)00:08
jdongthat's simply not possible without hardware battery backed storage controllers00:08
jdong(at the very minimum; stable software configuration and ECC'ed RAM above that)00:08
jdongwith that said, you should weigh your risks against the benefits00:09
crypt-0ext3 seems to handle hard shutdowns well.00:09
jdongit has a 5 second commit flush00:09
jdongit also uses physical block journaling00:10
crypt-0im on battery backup (UPS, my apps are stable, and if the UPS runs of battery it tells the PC to power off )00:10
jdongwhich increases the hamming distance between valid codewords.00:10
* ccheney personally likes to stay with what the most users run, as its generally best tested00:11
jdongif you are so confident your hardware will not flake, you should use any stable marked filesystem that best handles your workload from a performance and maintenance standpoint.00:11
crypt-0EXT3 has always been good to me, and so has XFS00:11
jdongin the past, ext3 has by far been best to me in resilience to abuse00:12
* ccheney bbl00:12
crypt-0im just wondering , in your opinion is the XFS throughput worth it?00:12
jdongwhat XFS throughput?00:12
jdongdepends on what you're doing.00:12
crypt-0a lot of DVD rips00:13
jdongI switched AWAY from XFS for performance reasons00:13
jdongXFS performs extremely well when your data is comprised of large files (>50MB each)00:13
crypt-0all legal of course, :)00:13
jdongXFS performs extremely poorly when your data is comprised of a large number of small files00:13
jdongthe latter tended to be my usecase on that server (a build server)00:13
jdongand sometimes XFS could take minutes where ext* would take seconds00:13
* RAOF wished he lived somewhere where dvd rips were legal.00:13
crypt-0well , when i extract a DVD most of the chapters are over 100MB, and the final raw mpeg is 4GB00:14
crypt-0the ripped version ends up at arounf 2GB00:14
crypt-0im plaining on bluray rips which will have a considerably larger size00:14
jdongXFS is a very reasonable filesystem for that00:15
jdongjust keep my caveats in mind.00:16
crypt-0but i also have about 60GB of music file sizes 2-100MB per song00:16
micahgmaybe that's why my builds take a while on xfs :)00:16
jdongmicahg: rm -rf is a very bad workcase for XFS00:16
jdong(1) it spends a lot of time rebalancing the B-tree that will eventually be completely gone anyway00:16
micahgis there a way to shrink xfs yet?00:16
jdong(2) Nowadays, it flushes barriers (16-32MB of hardware cache) every couple of transactions00:16
jdongyay, write 8KB of data, flush out 32MB.00:17
crypt-0since i will be using 64 bit will that help?00:17
jdongwhy does that have any impact?00:17
crypt-0XFS is a 64-bit file system. It supports a maximum file system size of 8 binary exabytes minus one byte, though this is subject to block limits imposed by the host operating system. On 32-bit Linux systems, this limits the file and file system sizes to 16 binary terabytes.00:17
crypt-0so thats it, it has no other impact?00:18
crypt-0i think ill go ext3...00:18
crypt-0i should get decent read with any FS with raid-100:19
crypt-0and decent write with RAID class drives00:19
jdongyou know that XFS is a 64-bit filesystem even on a 32-bit processor right?00:19
crypt-0but now that i think about it, the bottleneck is not the HD as much it is the DVD reader and CPU for encoding00:20
jdongright.00:20
jdongbut fragmentation wise you DO want an extent-based filesystem00:20
crypt-0basically, the filesystem can through a LOT more data at the encoder than the encoder can encode.00:20
crypt-0but EXT4 is so slow00:21
jdongumm...00:21
crypt-0and i have not run into frag-related issues with ext300:21
jdongso you choose ext3?00:21
jdongyou've got to be kidding me00:21
crypt-0i have not tested ext4 that much00:21
jdongext3's problem with dealing with large files is fragmentation when dealing with large files.00:21
crypt-0i use it for /boot00:21
jdongext4's primary GOAL is to fix that limitation of ext400:21
crypt-0ah00:22
jdongthrough extents and delay allocation00:22
jdongso ext4 is ext3 with better handling of large files.00:22
jdongand support for larger filesystems00:22
crypt-0most of my experence with EXT4 has been with /boot00:22
crypt-0i read that all the ext4 extents can decrease entropy00:22
crypt-0for disk encryption00:23
crypt-0but, that is probably NSA level shit paranoia00:23
jdongI do not have good knowledge of the effects of ext4's disk structure on cryptanalysis00:23
jdongso I cannot answer one way or another to that :)00:23
jdongbut my intuition from my informal experience with the subject is that it's probably not something you should be too concerned about00:24
crypt-0right00:25
cjwatsonso, wait a sec, you tried out ext4 on /boot and then decided it was slow?00:25
crypt-0like i said its probably NSA level crap00:25
cjwatsonnot the best of test cases :)00:25
crypt-0well i also used it years ago on an external partition00:25
jdongconsidering ext4's lifespan is on the order of "year(s)" ago00:26
jdongfor very small instantiations of the plural...00:26
cjwatsonmore or less the first thing my security lecturer taught me at university: "if a class 3 attacker is out to get you, you're toast anyway"00:26
jdongand for the majority of that time features like extents and the mballoc werne't implemented...00:26
jdongI'd say it's time for you to reevaluate ext4.00:26
cjwatsondon't waste time on vague cryptanalytic worries unless you actually have solid evidence00:26
crypt-0NTFS uses extents....and i dont see fully-encrypted winblows machines getting their encryption broken00:26
* dtchen chuckles at the NSA fud00:26
jdongI've found its performance with large files to be comparable if not better than XFS00:26
jdongbut XFS' scalability to the horrendous extremes is unbeatable00:27
jdongand by that I mean things like 20TB filesystems, 1TB files, etc etc etc00:27
jdongI don't think that's relevant to you00:27
* maco points at dtchen and yells "spook!"00:27
jdongI will say that XFS's backup tools (xfsdump) and administration/maintenance tools are far superior to ext*'s00:27
jdongbut I also don't see that terribly relevant to your usecase for storing movie rips00:27
crypt-0yeah00:28
jdongone of the requirements of my XFS server involved storing home-ish directories for highly active users and that demanded nightly incremental backups, online, while files are changing...00:28
crypt-0and i use LVMS so i can use a LVM snapshot, or a desynched RAID disk00:28
jdongxfsdump was an instrumental part of that workflow00:29
jdongfor movies, they're very much write-once-change-many, and don't benefit as much.00:29
crypt-0" more or less the first thing my security lecturer taught me at university: "if a class 3 attacker is out to get you, you're toast anyway" if i was worried about three letter agencies, i probably would not even use a computer :)00:30
jdonglol cjwatson is absolutely correct there :)00:30
crypt-0yes, the TEMPTEST attacks, i dont live in a EMI shielded cage :)00:30
jdongand along those lines, there's probably a lot more weak links in your crypto setup than predictable filesystem structures00:30
jdongs/predictable/uniquely identifiable/00:31
dtchenthere are a lot more "efficient" methods, like clubbing you over the head until you cough up the passphrase00:31
crypt-0yeah00:31
crypt-0that was my point00:31
jdonglol and my system sits on my desk in a dorm room00:31
jdongif you really want my data, come poison my bootloader while I'm in class.00:31
crypt-0if your being hunted by a three letter agency they are going to decrypt you based on your EMI, or log your keystrokes via EMI, etc00:32
crypt-0yeah00:32
chrisccoulsoncrypt-0 - i work in an EMI shielded room :P00:32
crypt-0i do use disk encryption, i do use a thoubrive for /boot with the GRUB MBR on it...but that is where i draw the line00:33
crypt-0so come get me with a hardware keylogger if you want my data :)00:34
crypt-0disk encryption, with SHA1/DES is probably good enough privacy for what i do.00:35
keeschrisccoulson: I work in an accidentally EMI shielded room.00:36
chrisccoulsonkees - how come? the room i work in is not accidentally shielded ;)00:37
crypt-0one of my professors said one of the same things about if your being hunted by 3 letter agencies....for downloading music and movies or ripping them he basically said you just have to be faster then the other guy00:37
chrisccoulsoni spend a lot of time in a RFI chamber at the moment00:37
chrisccoulsoni don't get to see any daylight ;)00:37
crypt-0lol00:37
* spm has done tempest attacks. it's pretty cool stuff.00:37
* crypt-0 drills holes in your wall and starts picking up your keystrokes with an acoustic keylogger00:38
crypt-0:P00:38
crypt-0the one that gets me as "almost practical" is sniffing your screen, but there is too much time and effort involved in that i assume under normal circumstances00:39
crypt-0it would not be used00:40
spmI think the root of "assume" is "ass, you, me" :-)00:40
crypt-0"Local man cought using LimeWire  with TEPMTEST attacks"00:40
crypt-0true.00:40
crypt-0i do use an LCD with a shielded cable, i consider it sufficient.00:41
crypt-0or is it not?00:41
* spm has done successful temptest attacks on PC's with no monitor00:42
crypt-0blah00:42
crypt-0what of those attacks are standard with music/movies?00:42
crypt-0the more you know....the more paranoid you get:)00:43
spmthink outside the square. why use technical if simpler physical or personal attacks are cheaper and more efficient00:44
=== asac_ is now known as asac
spmtbh tho. those agencies ahve far bigger fish to fry. there's nothing you can do to stop them if they really want your stuff. but a simplistic risk analysis would suggest - "you" have zip of value they're interested in. they have the capability; they just don't care.00:47
keeschrisccoulson: no clue -- i assume the concrete and lead paint contributes.  :)  I get no radio or cell signal in my basement.  :)00:48
=== robbiew is now known as robbiew_
chrisccoulsonkees - yes, the lead paint will probably contribute00:49
crypt-0spm yes, i have talked to people who have worked Fornesics, music/movies is the very last theing thet care about00:55
crypt-0of course they always want that "example" , but they would probably target someone using less security ( the average Joe filetrader)00:57
spmwell yes. foreign governments and keeping our soldiers alive was more important than a few execs losing a bmw of roll's00:57
spms/of/or/00:57
crypt-0or the 12 year old girls they have been known to targer lol00:57
crypt-0target00:57
crypt-0"Sally just got caught using the evil program LimeWire now her family has to pay 100 million dollars muhahaha"00:58
crypt-0What im saying is "Can my security be beat? Yes." "Will it be as easy as taking my PC? No."00:59
crypt-0the real question is who cares enough to mount Temptest attacks on me, and i believe no one does, as i dont live in China01:01
crypt-0:P01:01
crypt-0anyway01:01
crypt-0even if 20% of my data was 100% predictable, i dont that would lead to successful cryptanalysis01:02
crypt-0at least, not at this level.01:02
slangasekever the innovators, China has recently melded two of their most important industries to create the first tempest-in-a-teapot technology01:02
crypt-0lol01:03
crypt-0China broke WPA2 i believe also, as SAH101:03
crypt-0I have also heard and read that the MPIAA/RIAA has swiched to badgering ISPs to badger you01:06
crypt-0eg01:06
crypt-0"your isp says stop downloading or else:01:06
crypt-0instead of "you should have stopped downloading, we are coming to milk you for every cent you are wroth"01:07
crypt-0nevertheless i find Temptest attacks interesting.01:08
spmwhy?01:08
crypt-0well, i am going to be taking Forensics classes, im still a student01:08
spmit's amusing watching someone play solitaire (badly)01:09
spmahh. right.01:09
crypt-0my major will probably be networking, but Forensics is nice to have if you are network admin01:09
spmI'd hope not!! :-)01:10
spmthe idea is to ensure you have very little need to do any forensics.01:10
crypt-0"Boss: "Joe has been looking at porno and motorcycles all day instead of his work, can you prove it?"01:10
spmthat's not forensics. that's boring. yukky; seriously yucky. and tedious.01:11
crypt-0yeah01:11
cjwatsonit's also a case where you need to make sure you are on very sound legal ground01:11
spmhttp://www.stedee.id.au/web_proxy_log_usage_forensics_and_analysis <== wrote that for sage-au years ago; then blogged the same.01:11
spmexactly01:11
crypt-0but form what my professors said....you have to prove they were not ding their work01:12
crypt-0doing01:12
spmhave been pulled in as an expert witness in one case01:12
spmjurisdiction?01:12
spmit all depends.01:12
spmin the case I was involved in; the "porn" was but one plank of a raft of issues.01:12
cjwatsoncrypt-0: depending on local law, you might find yourself the subject of a countersuit for invasion of privacy ... like I say, if you find yourself in that position, you might want to have taken legal advice in advance01:12
crypt-0so you have to do port mirroring on their port,i assume a wireshark capture file would be enough01:13
spmthe guys dismissal was upheald over a range of issues; not just one.01:13
spmerr what's wrong qith eg proxy logs? or firewall logs? :-)01:13
spmwhy make it hard on yourself? :-)01:13
crypt-0well i recall my profs saying, you need evidence that is hard enough to go to court with, because you may have to01:14
crypt-0firewall logs may not be enough01:14
crypt-0they should, but not everyone in the jury is a tech guru.01:14
spmlike I said. which jurisdiction. it was plenty for a magistrate for an unfair dismissal case here in australia; ymmv.01:14
crypt-0USA here01:15
spmand again; it was only a single part of the 2 day hearing01:15
crypt-0ah ok01:15
crypt-0well01:15
crypt-0here01:15
crypt-0if you are using school/business computers01:15
crypt-0the AUP is basically: we can monitor what you are doing and will if we wwant01:16
cjwatson(please don't use the enter key as punctuation.)01:16
crypt-0cjwatson, sorry. :)01:16
crypt-0 01:16
crypt-0:P01:16
cjwatsonnote that AUPs are not necessarily in and of themselves legal01:16
spmyes; huge levels of "it depends" in this area.01:17
cjwatsonjust as simply writing something down in a contract doesn't make it enforceable01:17
crypt-0Right.01:17
crypt-0spm, Forensics is also useful foe Intrusion detection on the network.01:18
dtchenare we still building explicitly for lpia given the dropping of the arch? (maybe a dumb question...I've been under a rock debugging linux and pulse issues)01:19
spmheh. ignoring that the biggest abusers (ie $$ loss) will be your authorised users?01:19
cjwatsonhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workplace_privacy - brief but to the point01:19
cjwatsondtchen: we're stopping01:19
crypt-0anyway, i plan on "downgrading" my encrypted root partition to AES128 for speed01:19
cjwatsondtchen: well - for lucid, anyway. hardy-karmic PPAs will keep building for lpia01:19
dtchencjwatson: thanks01:19
ajmitchsomeone who has access needs to remove lpia from the bottom of https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid01:20
* ajmitch doesn't know where to file that bug01:20
crypt-0dtchen, yeah pulseaudio has its issues, had trouble with playing UrbanTerror01:20
crypt-0and the sound01:20
dtchencrypt-0: that isn't pulse; that's alsa-plugins.01:20
crypt-0but it is "fixed" in a fourm o found somewhere01:21
dtchenwe don't sync the "hw ptr" properly01:21
crypt-0oh01:21
crypt-0wel01:21
dtchenunfortunately it is *extremely* dependent on the audio hardware and kernel configuration01:21
cjwatsonajmitch: that'll happen along the line01:21
crypt-0wait....the fourms said to force it to use pulse01:21
cjwatsonajmitch: I don't believe it's possible to do it yet, because other parts of the removal are not complete01:22
crypt-0anyway it works.01:22
dtchencrypt-0: what, using libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio as a workaround? sure, that's a *workaround*. it doesn't at all address the fundamental bug.01:22
crypt-0im very disappointed in amarok 2.0x01:22
ajmitchcjwatson: I don't think many people will look there for what architectures are supported anyway01:22
crypt-0dtchen, yes.01:22
crypt-0but you guys have nothing to do with the development of amarok01:23
cjwatsonajmitch: I'm in no rush; we have 4+ months01:23
crypt-0you merely package it01:23
crypt-0i still use 1.4 it rocks :D01:23
crypt-0another question: Are you going to stick with the cbc-essiv mode for the default crypto installer, or for the next release try the xts-benbi mode (supposed to be more secure, but the module is still experimental)01:25
crypt-0i have been using xts-benbi01:26
=== fagan_ is now known as fagan
dtchencrypt-0: experimental in an LTS is essentially a no-go.01:31
=== dktrkranz is now known as Guest23053
crypt-0it seems pretty solid, the documentation of cryptsetup says for XTS use : xts-plain but01:33
crypt-0> Is the XTS kernel module still experimental?01:33
crypt-0It is marked as experimental, but it seems correct and stable.01:33
crypt-0> Also, how do you recommend using it for LUKS cypher-name-xts-plain?01:33
crypt-0I recommend aes-xts-benbi01:33
crypt-0benbi is 'big endian narrow block index', it gives each 16 byte block a01:33
crypt-0number. ('plain' is a little endian sector count, which is not standard01:33
crypt-0for narrow block cipher modes like lrw and xts)01:34
crypt-0Greetings,01:34
crypt-0Rik.01:34
crypt-0that was an email to Rik Snel <rik@snel.it>01:34
crypt-0he manages the XTS kernel module i believe01:35
crypt-0and here is another mail01:35
cjwatsoncrypt-0: I'm not really interested in changing it; feel free to take it up with Debian01:35
crypt-0cjwatson, inst cbc-essiv secure enough?01:36
crypt-0is that what you are saying?01:36
crypt-0it is secure and stable enough.01:36
cjwatsonI'm saying that I'm not interested in changing it, and that you should feel free to take it up with Debian01:36
=== Guest23053 is now known as dktrkranz
cjwatsonI do not want to go diving down a crypto rat-hole for ages - I have too much else to do01:37
=== dktrkranz is now known as Guest35967
crypt-0oh ok01:37
cjwatsonif somebody else from the d-i team wants to investigate it, determine that it's sound, make sure all the necessary tools support it, do the installer integration, and flip the default, they can feel free01:38
crypt-0cjwatson, do you believe cbb-essiv is secure enough for most uses (keep three letter agency out please)01:38
crypt-0*cbc01:38
cjwatsonhave I not already sufficiently dodged the question? :)01:38
crypt-0hehe01:38
cjwatsonI don't want to spend the time investigating, and I trust the people who made the decision in Debian01:39
crypt-0yeah, after all an experimental kernel module that does crypto math can compromise a encrypted system01:39
cjwatsonI do not want to make an authoritative statement on something I haven't investigated myself01:39
crypt-0so while the mode itself is believed more secure, it is more often from what i read the implementation that breaks.01:40
cjwatsonand I would much rather simply leave the defaults at the same values they are in Debian, rather than going solo on something that the Ubuntu installer team does not have extensive experience of01:41
=== Guest35967 is now known as dktrkranz
cjwatsonthat way, at least we have the same problems01:41
crypt-0Right.01:41
crypt-0IMHO TrueCrypt uses the XTS kernel module01:41
cjwatsonthat's as may be01:42
crypt-0i mailed the TrueCrypt developers, with no response.01:42
crypt-0wait...thet do use it, along with dm-mod01:42
cjwatsonbut our installer shares really rather a lot more with the Debian installer than it does with TrueCrypt. Like I say, if you really think it's wrong (not just speculating), feel free to contact the Debian installer developers01:43
crypt-0because the xts module is never loaded unless i open a TC volume.01:43
crypt-0Well, for now as long as the module is experimental, and there no significant attacks on cbc-essiv, there is no rush. On the other hand, if no one uses the module, then it will probably always be experimental.01:44
crypt-0So when cbc-essiv attacks come out, users can switch.01:45
crypt-0Is it possible to default to cbc-essiv, and at last make XTS an option?01:45
crypt-0like "warning xts unsupported"01:46
crypt-0like universe repos01:46
cjwatson-> d-i developers01:46
cjwatsonupstream, please01:47
crypt-0From what i recall XTS , and a few people using customized crypto installers are the only ones using XTS.01:47
crypt-0huh?01:47
cjwatsonplease take your query upstream01:47
crypt-0does Debian have an irc channel01:47
cjwatsonGoogle01:47
crypt-0:P lazy01:47
cjwatsonbut mail will be more productive01:47
crypt-0ok01:48
crypt-0well i have mails from a lot of developers01:48
fbondHi.  Is the Packages file in an APT repository supposed to be UTF-8 encoded?01:48
crypt-0and would be happy to forward to them to people willing to listen01:48
fbondI've found a package description that appears to be Latin-1 encoded.01:49
cjwatsonNobody's interested in mails from developers saying "use my stuff"; it is self-evident that they think that or they would not be developing it. :-) In order for anyone to be worried about cbc-essiv, you need evidence of cryptanalytic attacks.01:49
crypt-0even got a mail from Schneier lol01:49
cjwatsonor at least sound security research on weaknesses.01:49
cjwatson*relevant to the case at hand*01:49
cjwatsonfbond: that's a bug, yes01:50
crypt-0"01:50
crypt-0AFAIK, there haven't been new discoveries with respect to the safety01:50
crypt-0of CBC. However, as it was never that great in the first place,01:50
crypt-0switching to something new is desirable."01:50
=== DktrKranz is now known as Guest62390
fbondcjwatson: But is it a bug in the package?  I mean, would Ubuntu retroactively correct Packages.gz for an old package version?01:51
crypt-0that is from Clemens Fruhwirth, whom i believe introduced ESSIV to the Linux kernel.01:51
fbond(The package in question is doc-linux-html-pt in hardy, not hardy-updates.)01:51
* crypt-0 shuts up01:51
=== Guest62390 is now known as DktrKranz
cjwatsoncrypt-0: I'm ignoring further discussion on the subject in this channel. Sorry.01:51
cjwatsonfbond: we wouldn't retroactively correct hardy/Packages.gz, no, and UTF-8-soundness across the board is relatively recent01:52
crypt-0cjwatson, Can you point me a little closer to the debian developers than google, anyone specific in mind?01:52
cjwatsonI already gave you the keywords "Debian installer">01:52
cyphermoxcrypt-0, usually, they live on the OFTC network :)01:52
cjwatsoncyphermox: 01:47 <cjwatson> but mail will be more productive01:53
cjwatsonsigh. apparently they don't teach research these days ... off to bed, anyway01:53
cyphermoxindeed, but the mail is easy to find :)01:53
cyphermoxcjwatson, good night01:53
fbondcjwatson: If I'm writing code that parses Packages.gz for older releases, what can I assume about character encodings?01:54
cjwatsonfbond: nothing, I'm afraid01:54
fbondcjwatson: Ouch.  Okay, thanks.01:54
cjwatsonfbond: in practice it's probably either UTF-8 or ISO-8859-1, but the odd bit of ISO-8859-2 wouldn't entirely surprise me01:54
fbondcjwatson: Okay.  I'm surprised there's not control field that makes it explicit.01:55
cjwatsonby the time the problem was recognised it was easier to just switch to UTF-801:55
fbondcjwatson: Okay, makes sense.  Thanks for your help.01:56
Keybukthough it also wouldn't surprise me if the number of fields that don't match UTF-8 is small enough to special-case them01:56
fbondKeybuk: Yeah, I'll just try UTF-8, then fall back on Latin-1.  After that, I'll give up.01:57
slangasekKeybuk: did MoM fail again, or is it taking a really long time to update?02:06
KeybukIOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied:02:06
Keybuk+'/srv/patches.ubuntu.com/unpacked/d/dovecot/1:1.2.8-1/.pc/dovecot-drac.patch/sr02:06
Keybuk+c/plugins/drac/Makefile'02:06
* Keybuk adds dovcecot to the blacklist02:07
slangasek... permission denied?02:14
Keybukslangasek: yeah02:17
Keybuksilly package must have no readable permission on files in its tar file02:17
slangasekwhich will be a v3-generated tarball, probably related to the quiltiness of it02:18
slangasekbugger02:18
Keybukdovecot is in bzr anyway02:18
Keybuknot always02:19
Keybuksome upstreams fuck up too02:19
slangasekwell, .pc/dovecot-drac.patch/ is fairly telling02:19
Keybukaww02:27
Keybukoem-config kept HAL on the CD02:27
slangasekdtchen, persia, luisbg: could one of you drop cl-pdf from the ubuntustudio-font-meta deps?  It's removed from Debian, so I'm removing it from lucid03:12
persiaslangasek: Sure.  I'll do that now.03:12
slangasekcheers03:18
slangasektjaalton: how close are we to having installable xorg again?03:22
=== LucidFox_ is now known as LucidFox
=== dendro-afk is now known as dendrobates
=== asac_ is now known as asac
tjaaltonslangasek: looks like it's installable, at least dist-upgrade doesn't want to purge any packages here. the blobs need updates though, and wacom will have to wait until next week06:24
slangasektjaalton: all the CD builds have been failing because it's not; just got a fresh one on mythbuntu right now06:26
tjaaltonslangasek: what's missing?06:26
slangasekchecking06:27
tjaaltonI know that the server failed to build on sparc and powerpc, but that shouldn't hold things back?06:27
slangasektjaalton: xserver-xorg-input-all isn't installable, and that's in the seeds06:29
siretartmorning folks06:29
slangasektjaalton: not installable because evdev, synaptics, vmmouse all have the wrong ABI, I think?06:29
slangasekand wacom06:29
tjaaltonslangasek: no they should be built, at least i386 works here06:30
* maco takes this as warning not to upgrade to lucid yet06:30
tjaaltonand wacom was dropped06:30
macotjaalton: dropped? for the moment, or...?06:30
tjaaltonmaco: yes, the current one doesn't build, and xf86-input-wacom isn't packaged yet06:31
slangasektjaalton: ah; my mirror is one revision out of date, let me jab it06:31
tjaaltonmaco: dropped from input-all06:31
macotjaalton: but will come back, right?06:31
tjaaltonmaco: of course, with proper capability-based hotplug06:32
macoi mean, support for wacom devices isnt just going to go *boom*?06:32
macook06:32
macojust checking06:32
slangasektjaalton: ah; the new xorg is only just installed on amd64 in the current publisher run06:35
tjaaltonslangasek: yeah, I noticed the build-backlog was hours long when I uploaded that..06:36
slangasekso, all fixed with the next pulse06:36
tjaaltongreat06:36
slangasek(I assume)06:36
siretartslangasek: if you have a spare minute, could you assist me please with drafting an educated answer on the last paragraph of http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.video.ffmpeg.devel/10053806:36
slangaseksiretart: hmm, probably not this evening, sorry06:36
siretartokay, thanks anyway06:37
slangasekttx: morning07:17
ttxslangasek: o/07:17
slangasekttx: do you know offhand if eucalyptus is moving to cglib 2.2 in the lucid timeframe?  Debian has removed cglib2.1 as obsolete07:18
ttxslangasek: no I don't. But i can ask.07:18
slangasekok - do you need a mail or bug or anything?07:19
ttxslangasek: I should be able to drive that from here, thx07:19
pittiGood morning07:20
=== tkamppeter_ is now known as tkamppeter
=== saispo_ is now known as saispo
dholbachgood morning08:01
pitticjwatson: would you mind doing a d-i upload against 2.6.32-7?08:25
crypt-0pitti, i last saw cjwatson speek in the channel at 20:5608:40
crypt-0it is 03:40 here now08:40
pitticrypt-0: he'll pick it up when he wakes up08:40
crypt-0i should probably crawl into bed08:41
crypt-0pitti, ok :)08:41
crypt-0pitti, while you are here is it worth installing the 2.6-16 kernel updates08:42
crypt-0i did not see anything very critical in the upstream changes.08:42
pittithey'll come through -updates anyway sooner or  later08:42
crypt-0yes they are waiting to be installed08:43
crypt-0but i dont like rebooting08:43
crypt-0maybe ill use Ksplice08:43
pittino hurry08:43
=== dnivra_ is now known as dnivra
=== dnivra is now known as dnivra_
crypt-0http://www.ksplice.com/uptrack/08:44
crypt-0 Ubuntu 9.1008:44
crypt-0    Free for Ubuntu 9.10 Karmic—download now08:44
crypt-0  08:44
crypt-0  08:44
crypt-0     Ubuntu 9.0408:44
crypt-0    Free for Ubuntu 9.04 Jaunty—download now08:44
crypt-0whoh, sorry for that big paste08:45
crypt-0pitti, i want to test ksplice08:45
crypt-0babye since it is already in a .deb package bulit for 9.04, 9.10 and "comming soon" for 8.04 it can be added to unverse?08:46
dnivra_i'm trying to understand how the sudo application works. I compiled it using DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS="noopt nostrip debug" debuild -b -us -uc. but when I run it in gdb, I get the error "cannot find threads: generic error". the binary that i compiled works fine. what is exactly wrong?08:46
* crypt-0 goes to bed08:46
* pitti unbreaks usb-creator08:51
dholbachkirkland: can you comment on bug 493243?08:54
ubottuLaunchpad bug 493243 in debianutils "Please merge debianutils 3.2.2 (main) from Debian testing (main)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/49324308:54
dnivra_i'm trying to understand how the sudo application works. I compiled it using DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS="noopt nostrip debug" debuild -b -us -uc. but when I run it in gdb, I get the error "cannot find threads: generic error". the binary that i compiled works fine. what is exactly wrong?09:02
dnivra_also where exactly is this function "verify_user()" in check.c of source of sudo defined. didn't find it in the source files at all09:03
=== jiboumans is now known as jiboumans_
=== jiboumans_ is now known as jiboumans
=== seb128_ is now known as seb128
cjwatsonpitti: yup, will do shortly, thanks10:04
pitticjwatson: good morning! thanks10:04
cjwatsonKeybuk: I still can't reproduce that extract failure10:08
cjwatsonKeybuk: ah, but it's not an extract failure, it's files in .pc being unreadable - quilt does like to do that10:08
cjwatsonKeybuk: i.e. nothing to do with the tarballs as such - I wonder if it would be worth just forcing at least mode 444 on everything10:10
cjwatson(modulo umask)10:10
cjwatsonor, I wonder if .pc should be ignored10:11
cjwatsonit's not as if you actually want to merge it10:11
freemvo: hey!10:19
freemvo: just wanted to let you know that I couldn't reproduce that problem with failing APT channels, so it might have been something transient10:20
cjwatsonmdz: do you have the list admin password for developer-membership-board@? it has some things in its queue which are relevant, and my .listadmin.ini doesn't seem to know its password10:20
freemvo: I have another (unrelated) question though, it looks like the RELEASE_UPRADER_ALLOW_THIRD_PARTY env variable for enabling non-official sources is available only from jaunty on, right? I wondering if there is any chance to have it ever backported at some point10:24
mdzcjwatson: I don't think so10:26
mdzcjwatson: iirc Keybuk set it up10:26
mvofree: hello! thanks for letting me know. backport> yes, but it might be simpler than that, is it for the launchpad PPA ?10:29
mvofree: what url does that have?10:29
freemvo: well, in this moment I'd need it for a PPA, to test the upgrade process against our RC landscape-client packages (not yet uploaded to Lucid or SRU-ed)10:30
freemvo: but in general it's an option we would like to expose to our users in the UI10:30
freemvo: like a checkbox10:31
freemvo: https://launchpad.net/~landscape/+archive/ppa this is the PPA with the packages10:31
mvofree: please try adding https://launchpad.net/~landscape/+archive/ppa  to mirrors.cfg (that is a file in the downloaded dist-upgrader.tar.gz)10:35
freemvo: thanks for the tip!10:37
mvofree: with that, it hopefully just works :)10:38
freemvo: is there are wishlist bug open for backporting the allow_third_party feature? if not I might open one10:38
freemvo: I guess so, but it involves adding code to the landscape client just for that (which isn't great), and it solves only this case10:39
mvofree: do you need more than the LP ppa there? i mean, is it useful indepedant of this?10:39
mvofree: if you need it for more, than just file a bug10:39
mvoplease10:39
freemvo: hhm, I'm thinking to customers who might need to enable their repos10:39
freemvo: I don't have any real request though10:39
freemvo: so it might just be fine actually, because we support it for >=jaunty10:40
freemvo: I'll probably open a bug if we get some real request from somebody, thanks for now10:40
mvofree: ok, sounds good10:40
dholbachhey free10:46
dholbachfree: we didn't manage to meet in Berlin :)10:46
freedholbach: hey!10:46
freedholbach: yeah, I'm back to Italy :/10:46
dholbachfree: I hope you had a good time10:47
freedholbach: pretty much, a love the city, hope to come back soon10:47
dholbachnice :)10:47
* dholbach hugs free10:47
free:)10:48
mdzKeybuk: I just had fsck run on 3 filesystems (/, /home and /space). once / and /home were complete, it went ahead and booted up to gdm while /space continued in the background10:52
mdzthis was way cool. is that how it is supposed to work though?10:52
ionmdz: That’s intentional. If you want the system to wait for /space’s fsck, add bootwait to its fstab options.10:52
mdzion: what I actually want is for squid to wait until /space is mounted before it starts, because that's where my cache lives10:53
mdzI suppose that will require upstartifying squid10:53
ionmdz: Yeah. start on all-filesystems, or something like that.10:54
LucidFoxdoko, are you planning to sync/merge llvm from Debian? I specifically hope to see the llvm-source package, to sync clang from Debian after that.11:01
pitticjwatson: hm, d-i failed with "udev-udeb: Depends: libgudev-1.0-0 (>= 147) but it is not installable"11:09
pittiweird11:09
cjwatsonpitti: yeah, udev misbuild by the looks of things11:10
cjwatsonsurely the udeb shouldn't use gudev :)11:11
pittioh, that means that it's looking for a libgudev-1.0-0 .udeb11:11
cjwatsonyes, because objects in udev-udeb are linked against libgudev11:12
cjwatsonthis is not supposed to be the case11:12
* pitti builds local udev version and checks11:13
cjwatsonpitti: odd though, I don't see any offending objects there11:21
pittihm, neither do I11:21
cjwatsonpitti: I'm happy to figure it out11:23
pitticjwatson: I'm almost done with unbreaking X.org, then I can help with this, too11:24
cjwatsonno point in us duplicating work :)11:24
cjwatsonpitti: I see the problem11:30
cjwatsonpitti: (note that my commit doesn't *entirely* fix it, so please don't upload - still working on another bit)11:35
pitticjwatson: understood; thanks!11:36
cjwatsonpitti: judgement call: add a new libudev0-udeb package, or remove input_id from udev-udeb?11:38
pitticjwatson: I'd say the latter11:39
pittiwe only need it for xorg right now really11:39
cjwatsonoh, I'd been very slightly inclined towards the former on the grounds that we might need it in the future, but not inclined enough to argue the point :)11:39
pittiunless d-i relies on persistent input device names (which would be very unlikely)11:39
cjwatsonit certainly doesn't right now11:39
cjwatsonok, I'll remove it11:39
cjwatsonso the previous commit is technically moot for d-i, but correct anyway - otherwise things built against only libudev0 will be pulling in dependencies on libgudev-1.0-011:40
cjwatsonI dunno, this is irritating to remove in the packaging11:43
davmor2pitti: I'm having issues on todays live iso getting an ip address from my router11:43
pittidavmor2: oh, I get that in vmware, too11:43
pittiso it's not just me11:43
cjwatsonpitti: hmm, sorry to ask a question and then ignore the answer, but I think I'm going to create libudev0-udeb anyway - it's a lot less hassle in the packaging, and will probably avoid problems later11:43
davmor2pitti: I'll install and see if it's still an issue11:44
pitticjwatson: heh; sure, sounds fine11:44
pittidavmor2: does ubiquity actually work for you? this morning it just crashed, but then I couldn't report it because of the lack of networking11:44
pittidavmor2: (still on my list to report)11:44
cjwatsonprobably no need, should be fixed in bzr, assuming it just crashed immediately11:45
davmor2no crashed11:45
pitticjwatson: some TypeError AFAIR11:45
cjwatsonpitti: yeah, that's fixed11:45
pittitried to check a file and probably got None11:45
pittinice, thanks11:45
cjwatsonno - it tried to check 'file' (the builtin), rather than 'f'11:45
pittiaah11:45
StevenKcjwatson: Bah, I keep doing that too. :-/11:46
davmor2pitti: someone beat you to reporting it bug 49287311:52
ubottuLaunchpad bug 492873 in ubiquity "ubiquity crashed with TypeError in isfile()" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/49287311:52
cjwatsonpitti: do you think it'll be ok if I upload udev?11:56
pitticjwatson: sure, why not?11:56
cjwatsonpitti: or are you still working on it?11:56
pittino, I'm done11:56
pitti(in fact, I didn't touch it)11:56
pitticjwatson: the xorg keyboard stuff was a change in xorg-server11:56
cjwatsonok11:56
cjwatsonpitti: uploaded; would you do the honours with binary NEW when it arrives?11:58
pittimy pleasure :) I'll watch it11:59
pittiwon't make the publisher run in 4 minutes though, I'm afraid11:59
=== yofel_ is now known as yofel
=== jelmer_ is now known as jelmer
pittiI noticed the buildd situation -- what happened?12:33
pittiall but one were already disabled over the weekend12:33
ograseems libdap kills them with some kind of make -j <hugenumber> call12:33
pittiand that was tried on all of those?12:33
apwcjwatson, pitti did i see one of you looking at a bug where the kernel post inst was not being run as a result of lost /etc/something config options, got a reference to the bug?  damned if i can find it12:34
ograwhen they were reset yesterday libdap was scored in a way that it wouldnt be attempted soon12:34
cjwatsonapw: not I, I think12:34
ograbut apparently it came back12:34
apwmay have been slagasek12:34
ograpitti, very likely, yes ...12:34
ograits quite odd because we cant build livefses either ... all of the archive is out of sync on arm :/12:35
pittiapw: hm, I didn't hear that; the closest I've come across recently is that the new kernel wasn't booted because someone edited menu.lst12:35
ograand the livefs builder has a mksquashfs bug i cant reproduce without having the packages :/12:35
* pitti hugs ogra12:36
ograthanks :)12:36
macoapw: /etc/kernel-img.conf?12:37
apwyeah thats the file12:37
macoapw: bug 470265 ?12:38
ubottuLaunchpad bug 470265 in grub "jaunty to karmic upgrade failed to update menu.lst (update-grub missing from kernel-img.conf)" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/47026512:38
pittiogra: I tried to revieve imbe; let's see whether that works12:38
pittiogra: no, sorry, immediately failed again; seems it needs a reboot or so12:38
ograpitti, lamont is on it, the armel machines do reboot12:38
apwmaco, thats the one i was thinking of, thanks12:38
ograpitti, they need someone in the DC to power cycle them manually12:38
ogra(they dont come back automatically, you need someone to press the power button)12:39
amitkpitti: I would like to get the patches into powertop from upstream. They haven't made a new release yet.12:39
pittiamitk: in fact, we have had a synced powertop for a very long time, but in late karmic we got a bug fix12:39
pittiamitk: sure, that seems fine12:40
amitkpitti: we need some stuff from powertop git to tell us about disk wakeups and HDA audio states12:40
pittiamitk: I remember that we talked about this at UDS12:40
macoamitk: oooh lovely12:40
pittiamitk: no problem at all if they are already upstream12:40
apwamitk, i think those patches you requested are in the current kernel12:40
amitkapw: I know. I got those patches merged in the lucid kernel. Now I need to get the tool updated to use the new kernel interface :)12:41
apwamitk, i know you know you asked for them, i didn't know you knew you had them out there in the wild12:41
amitklol12:41
amitkok12:42
pittiamitk: want to do the powertop update yourself?12:42
amitkpitti: I'll take a stab at it12:42
pittiamitk: I guess easiest is to "make dist" git head and use that as a new orig.tar.gz12:42
pitti(easier than backporting patches individually and messing with autoconf)12:43
amitkpitti: ok, that is exactly the kind of tip I was looking for ;)12:43
pittiamitk: let me know if you need help (I'll be away for some 30 mins for lunch, but I'll read backscroll)12:43
amitkpitti: thanks!12:45
lamonthow do I get firefox to either (1) quit dying with SEGV, and/or (2) stop STEALING FOCUS when it pops up a window, finishes rendering a page,  or all those other things that I really don't care that it's done?12:47
ogralamont, use chromium instead ?12:48
ogra:)12:48
* ogra thinks he saw more people with chromium than with FF at UDS12:48
lamontogra: uh... no.12:49
cody-somervilleI find chromium has rendering issues.12:49
ogranot for me ... but the URL bar search function is far behind FF12:49
cody-somervilleBesides having very weird/ugly fonts12:50
ograhmm, i cant agree ... but then i use driod as my default font everywhere12:50
cody-somervilleI can't seem to select sans-serif for sans-serif in Chromium.12:51
jussi01chromium has lots of black boxes when I scroll currently... its fun :)12:51
cody-somervilleand it uses Times New Roman by default for serif and Arial for sans-serif12:52
jussi01ogra: Have to agree with you about the chromium at uds thing12:52
ogracody-somerville, hmm, i just changed it to sans, works fine here12:52
artirthe rendering issues are gone with latest update12:53
cody-somervilleogra, sans-serif12:53
ogracody-somerville, thats the same, no ?12:53
artiralso happened to me, i though it was xorg's problem12:53
cody-somervilleogra, nope12:53
jussi01artir: my black boxes? or something else?12:54
artiryep12:54
ogracody-somerville, i dont have sans-serif in *any* font selector ...12:54
cody-somervilleogra, It shows up in Firefox show.12:54
ogracody-somerville, only "Sans"12:54
pittiamitk: oh, in case you wonder, I'd avise to call the new upstream version 11.1+git2009120812:54
jussi01artir: updating now, thanks for the heads up12:54
amitkpitti: ack12:54
artiralso with the chromium-daily ppa? :)12:55
ograthats what i use here12:55
artirit's doesn't look like daily, it's quite stable, no fun12:55
ograand apart from the fact that url bar searching doesnt really work with searching for fragments of the url, its working flawless for everything12:55
artiri only miss greasemonkey12:57
cody-somervilleogra, http://people.canonical.com/~cody-somerville/sans-serif-firefox.png12:58
ogracody-somerville, yes, i belive you, whats the difference ? looks like something hardcoded in FF12:59
ograand i would guess it defaults to fontconfigs Sans12:59
cody-somervilleogra, I dunno but fonts look a hell of a lot better in Firefox then chromium.12:59
ogranot for me, they really look the same here12:59
cody-somervilleHow can Times New Roman look like Serif?13:00
ograprobably i have better displays :)13:00
cody-somervilleI wouldn't call Times New Romans looking like Serif a trait of a superior display :P13:00
jussi01ogra: mind if I pm a minute?13:00
ograjussi01, i have to be in a meeting now ...13:01
jussi01ogra: fine, Ill getyou later then :)13:01
ograjussi01, fine afterwards though13:01
jussi01ogra: eta?13:01
ogra1h or so13:01
ogra(or watch #ubuntu.meeting ;) )13:01
jussi01ok, thanks. get you then :)13:02
ogras/./-/13:02
=== rgreening_ is now known as rgreening
=== ev1 is now known as ev
amitkKeybuk: around? Need to talk about automated boot tests...13:14
=== dendrobates is now known as dendro-afk
=== ev1 is now known as ev
Riddellcjwatson: did your Qt arm changes get anywhere?  I have an upload for Qt due13:36
cjwatsonRiddell: been building all night and still going13:37
cjwatsonRiddell: let me get you a diff ...13:38
pgranercjwatson: quick question, just did a upgrade to lucid from Karmic and X failed to update, in face the xwerver-xorg package is no long on they system, known issue?13:43
WazzzaaaIm not sure but try: /topic #ubuntu+113:45
Wazzzaaait says something about broken xorg13:45
pittipgraner: with dist-upgrade or update-manager? do you have logs in /var/log/dist-upgrade/ ?13:46
cjwatsonxorg was uninstallable for a bit13:47
cjwatsoninput/video driver abi desync13:47
cjwatsonnot sure if that's fixed yet13:47
pgranerPici: dist-upgrade and yes I have the log13:47
pittiit should be fine right now13:47
seb128read what dist-upgrade wants to do before give the ack to uninstall things ;-)13:47
mvopgraner: could you please mail me the log?13:47
pittihah, mvo has a hilight on "upgrade" :)13:48
mvoI do ;)13:48
pgranercjwatson: trying to install xserver-xorg gives me xserver-xorg-input-all & evdev won't/can't be installed13:48
seb128the issue is that all drivers didn't get rebuild yet for the new xserver...13:48
pgranermvo: sure13:48
mvothis is why I got so many more gray hair :/13:48
pittibut yeah, with dist-upgrade this will happen very often -- just don't do the upgrade if it wants to remove half of your system13:48
cjwatsonyou sure you're up to date? xserver-xorg-input-all isn't listed in the automatic uninstallable check13:48
cjwatsonand what pitti said13:48
mvopgraner: all the stuff in /var/log/dist-upgrade/* please :)13:48
pittiwacom was removed from -all yesterday (which is one uninstallable bit)13:48
cjwatsonand 'chdist apt-get lucid-i386 install xserver-xorg-input-all' works for me right now13:49
pitti^ me 213:49
pgranermvo: ok I fibbed, I just went to /var/log/dist-upgrade and the dir is empty13:49
mvopgraner: oh, sorry. I misread then. if it was a apt-get dist-upgrade, then there'is no log information on why this was done (u-m keeps a copy of the why)13:51
pgranermvo: no worries, looks like switching the mirror from the "fastest" to archive.u.c is fixing it. Mirror lag13:53
mvook13:53
ionThe following packages will be REMOVED: xserver-xorg-input-wacom{a}. I wonder if i could help fix lucid’s wacom support – or is someone working on that?13:57
pittidavmor2: network-manager problem> ah, got it; it's a dhcp3-client/apparmor problem; sudo aa-complain dhclient3 fixes it14:02
pitti(I got some violations in dmesg)14:02
pittiit stumbles over /rofs again14:02
pittiI thought we disabled AA on the live system for that reason, seems that doesn't work any more14:02
pittiI'll have a look later on14:02
cjwatsonpitti: ev's already on it14:03
cjwatson(#ubuntu-installer)14:03
davmor2pitti: works fine from an alternate install14:03
pittiah14:03
pittiseems that half of the things I plan today are already being looked at :)14:03
davmor2pitti: surely you're not complaining :)14:03
pittiheh14:03
pittikees, cjwatson, mdz, Keybuk, sabdfl: we'll do a DMB meeting today again?14:04
mdzpitti, I have the same conflict I had for the previous one :-/14:05
pittikirkland: I have no trouble ssh'ing from kvm into the host, but I don't see how to ssh in, since there is no iface configured for this; is there a trick to get a virtual iface on the host?14:05
mdzpitti, ssh out, port forward back ;-)14:06
=== robbiew_ is now known as robbiew
kirklandpitti: hi14:07
kirklandpitti: what's the ip of your kvm guest?  10.0.2.2?14:07
pittikirkland: right14:07
pittimdz: nice, trying that14:07
Davieypitti: if you are using bridged networking (default), you won't get a dedicated interface tied to it from the host.14:07
evpitti: slight correction, discussion on the apparmor thing is in #ubuntu-release14:08
pittikirkland: sorry, that's the kvm gateway14:08
pittiev: ah, thanks; reading backscroll14:08
siretart`sudo dhclient eth0 - dhclient: error loading shared libraries: libc.so.6: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory - is this problem already known? what package is the culprit?14:08
kirklandpitti: right, so you have to have bridged networking to initiate connections from the outside to get to a guest14:09
siretart`this is from today's lucid live cd14:09
pittisiretart`: see above and #ubuntu-release; apparmor getting in the way14:09
kirklandpitti: there's a couple of ways to do this ...  you can use virt-manager, or virsh14:09
siretart`pitti: oh, nice. thanks!14:09
kirklandpitti: or you can use sudo + a bridged networking script i can show you14:09
pittimdz: yay, that works14:14
pittikirkland: got it to work with -R 2222:10.0.2.15:2214:14
cjwatsonpitti: I think we should have the DMB meeting today anyway - we're accumulating a backlog14:15
pitticjwatson: agreed14:15
ScottKcjwatson: Any news on the overnight qt4-x11 build for armel?14:17
cjwatsonScottK: still running, was just about to feed Riddell the diff ...14:17
ScottKOK.  Thanks.14:17
ograovernight ??14:17
ograheh14:17
cjwatsonnot the fastest of builds14:18
cjwatsonRiddell,ScottK: http://paste.ubuntu.com/337275/14:18
ograyeah14:18
ograthat more than half of the official armel buildds are dead wont help either ...14:19
cjwatsonmakes no difference in my case, I'm using jocote14:19
ograno, but for ScottK it will ...14:20
ograit wont build before A114:20
ScottKogra: I was planning on retrying all of KDE as soon as we hit the freeze.14:20
ScottK;-)14:20
ograScottK, please dont, we dont even have the basic packageset yet14:21
ScottKogra: I was kidding.14:21
ographew :)14:21
ogra:)14:21
ograyou got me14:21
ionOh, wacom works after all. Nice.14:21
pittiion: oh? I thought it wouldn't even install right now?14:23
ograpitti, i bet evdev makes it work14:24
ionI wonder how to check which driver xorg users for wacom?14:25
pittiion: should be in /var/log/Xorg.0.log14:25
pittiion: right now we don't have udev rules which assign the wacom driver14:25
pittiso it must be evdev14:25
pittiso I suppose some features are just missing14:25
cjwatsonjames_w: I checked out lp:ubuntu/elilo and ran 'bzr merge-package lp:debian/elilo'. It appeared to work but it only seems to have merged the packaging, not the upstream changes (e.g. 'bzr di -rancestor:lp:debian/elilo' shows a bunch of lines removed from ChangeLog). Did I do something wrong?14:25
ograit likely configures it as mouse14:26
cjwatsonjames_w: should be repeatable if you go back to r1714:26
pittiogra: *nod*14:26
cjwatsonjames_w: revision 2.1.4 is marked [merge] but doesn't have any other visible parents in this tree, which is a little alarming14:26
ionpitti: Yeah, i can’t find the information from the log. http://pastebin.com/f6468dc8414:27
=== ian_brasil is now known as ian_brasil_afk
ionNow to find out what kind of udev rules to add for calibration. I used to have http://heh.fi/hal_fdi_policy/wacom.fdi14:28
ograwow, thats impressive14:29
ionOh, click doesn’t work with wacom. It’s “unable to handle keycode 333”.14:29
ogra    2.875489] (II) "Wacom ISDv4 93": Configuring as tablet14:29
* ogra wouldnt have expected that14:30
pittiion: are you using the karmic/lucid -wacom package or xorg-edgers?14:30
pittiit seems to recognize the tablet fine by and large14:30
ionpitti: I’m using lucid, and the latest upgrade deleted the -wacom package.14:30
pittiion: oh, btw, would you mind doing "udevadm info --export-db" and put it into a pastebin?14:31
pittiion: I'm curious whether my input_id udev bit detects the tablet as such14:31
ionpitti: http://pastebin.com/faecdfef14:31
pittiID_INPUT_TABLET=114:32
pittiperfect14:32
pittiion: cheers14:32
pittix11_driver=evdev14:32
pittiyup, evdev14:32
ionAh14:32
pittiion: see /lib/udev/rules.d/66-xorg-synaptics.rules14:33
pittiion: you can use the very same x11_options as in the fdi file, and select by ENV{ID_INPUT_TABLET}=="?*"14:34
pittisynaptics did the same14:34
ionAh, thanks. I was just about to ask if ENV{x11_options.Foo} is supported, didn’t notice the synaptics file.14:34
pittiion: in theeeory it should work14:35
pittiion: but I assume that it'll only actually work with the wacom driver?14:35
* pitti has no clue about wacom, sorry14:35
pittikees: you're chairing DMB today?14:36
ionAh, good point.14:37
ionSo, Option "Calibration" "min-x max-x min-y max-y" for evdev. Let’s try that.14:38
pittixorg.conf FTW: )14:41
kirklandpitti: yeah, that's also good14:41
tjaaltonogra: btw, what were the issues with using evdev for touchscreens? IIRC calibration was one, or a lack of a tool for that?14:48
ogratjaalton, evdev only works with touchscreens that are supported by udbtouchscreen in the kernel14:48
ogra*usbtouchscreen14:48
ograthere are only very few14:48
tjaaltonhmm14:49
tjaaltonok14:49
ograusbtouchscreen sets a specific TOUCHSCREEN parameter on the device afaik14:49
tjaaltonhow does evtouch make it work=?14:49
ionpitti: http://heh.fi/xorg/udev/66-xorg-wacom.rules handles calibration. Now if click only worked. :-)14:49
ograit hooks in on a higher level14:50
ograthough thats obsolete anyway now that hal is gone14:50
pittiion: sweet14:50
pittiion: out of interest, how did you figure out the values? is there a program for it?14:51
pittiion: do you see anything in xev if you click?14:51
tjaaltonogra: do the non-usb devices show up in udev?14:51
ionpitti: wacom-tools has wacomcpl which would handle calibration graphically, but it has been broken since the HAL migration. I just found the values with manual experimentation.14:52
pittibryce, tjaalton: I'm actually quite surprised that waco mdevies c already work so well with -evdev (see  ion ^); so the wacom driver just adds some extra functionality like those clicks, etc.?14:52
ogratjaalton, depends ... non USB as in serial surely dont, non USB as in PS/2 depend on the driver ...14:52
tjaaltonpitti: yes, evdev includes some support but wacom has all the bells and whistles14:52
ogratjaalton, all touchscreens i own are usb ones but not supported by usbtouchscreen ... they just show as /dev/input7eventX14:53
ionpitti: Nothing from xev, just (WW) "Wacom ISDv4 93": unable to handle keycode 333 in Xorg.0.log.14:54
tjaaltonogra: so that's a kernel bug then?14:54
pittiion: so I guess that counts as "bells and whistles" then14:54
ogranot sure14:54
ion331 for the second button, which is mapped to middle mouse button by default in the wacom driver.14:55
ograi donbt know if the devices *can* even be supported by usbtouchscreen14:55
ionThe default calibration for the stylus panel is almost correct by default. The default calibration for the touch panel seems to be a copy of the stylus panel calibration, and it needed a big change.14:56
tjaaltonogra: apparently it supports at least serial penmount devices15:03
tjaaltonso it's not just usb15:03
ograyou mean evtouch evdev or what ?15:04
tjaaltonthe kernel15:04
tjaaltonhttp://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=blob;f=drivers/input/touchscreen/Kconfig;h=8cc453c85ea704d42ee8411d232c31193e8212e1;hb=baf4974e496957681403d4bf74a3274ed3f8527715:04
tjaaltonanyway, gotta run15:05
ionpitti: Is evdev able to provide click pressure information? If not, that’s an essential functionality provided by the wacom driver.15:06
robbiewev: ping15:06
pittiion: in theory yes (there's an ABS_PRESSURE value)15:07
pittiion: in practice, no idea15:07
pittiit should be like an axis15:07
evrobbiew: pong; home15:07
ionpitti: How about tilt? My wacom doesn’t provide that information, just curious.15:08
pittiion: all I can say is that the evdev interface defines ABS_TILT_{X,Y}15:09
pittibut of course it's up to the driver to actually implement it15:09
ionYeah, the interface was what i meant. As long as the interface supports it, it shouldn’t be too big an issue to implement the missing functionality in the evdev driver. It’s just data that comes from /dev/input/eventN in addition to position information etc.15:10
ionYay for MPX. Now if my window manager just supported it. :-P15:15
apwmvo, as you probabally realised my update-manager -d upgrade completed fine ...15:25
mvoapw: great, thanks15:29
pgranerpitti: apport-collect just crashed15:34
Kanothe current live image is really funny... did somebody try: sudo dhclient?15:44
Kanolibc.so.6 is not found15:44
pittipgraner: any details? screen output, etc.?15:44
pittiKano: already being discussed and in progress15:44
bdrungmdz: with with tools can i readout the acpi sensor data?15:48
mdzbdrung: yes, there are procfs and sysfs interfaces15:50
=== thunderstruck is now known as gnomefreak
Al2O3anyone here a USB PPC on mac developer?  I have a question or two.15:59
pgranerpitti: sorry got distracted here you go: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/337368/16:08
pittipgraner: ah, that's actually bug 38581116:10
ubottuLaunchpad bug 385811 in apport "TypeError: add_hooks_info() takes exactly 2 arguments" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/38581116:10
hedkandiyo!16:12
hedkandihi there is cjw around?16:12
hedkandicjwatson: hello!16:12
cjwatsonhedkandi: hey, you left before I could correct my mistake last night16:12
hedkandisorry!16:13
hedkandiwhat's the latest version?16:13
cjwatsonhedkandi: two paragraphs back in the standard, section 6.5.7 para 116:13
cjwatsonhedkandi: "If the value of the right operand is negative or is greater than or equal to the width of the promoted left operand, the behavior is undefined."16:13
cjwatsonhedkandi: thus, n >> 32 when n is a 32-bit type is simply invalid C, and the compiler is entitled to do anything it likes16:14
hedkandiexactly16:14
hedkandithat is what I was seeing16:14
cjwatsonso the right answer is, don't do that :)16:14
hedkandiI was actually getting n>>(m%32)16:14
LaserJockis there anybody from the CC around?16:15
hedkandiwhich is another way of writing n>>(m&0x1f)16:15
PiciLaserJock: #ubuntu-community-team is usually where they hang out.16:15
hedkandicjwatson, well it's interesting16:15
LaserJockPici: ah, awesome, thanks16:15
hedkandicjwatson, I didn't expect that, I've always assumed that you get 0's as you initially stated16:16
hedkandicjwatson, but you don't16:16
hedkandicjwatson, I notice you didn't know this gotcha either.16:16
cjwatsonhedkandi: not offhand, I outsource that sort of knowledge to the standard16:17
hedkandiI presume that the C99 standard is the same as C++16:17
cjwatsonyou presume incorrectly!16:17
cjwatsonC99 is the 1999 revision of the C standard16:17
hedkandiI outsource that kind of knowledge16:17
cjwatsonit isn't C++16:17
cjwatson:-)16:17
hedkandiso what does the C++ standard say?16:17
hedkandidoes gcc run to the c99 standard?16:18
hedkandicjwatson, I notice you run the "ubuntu-devel" list16:20
hedkandiwhere's he gone?16:24
cjwatsonyeesh, I do several things, not just sit by #ubuntu-devel ;-)16:24
ScottKProbably busy doing actual work.16:24
cjwatsonif you install the gcc documentation package, the info documentation has a lot of stuff about how gcc follows standards. the answer is not straightforward16:25
cjwatsonI am not a C++ standards person, and have no particular desire to become one :)16:25
mdzkees, cjwatson, pitti, Keybuk, sabdfl: http://pastebin.com/f653dfa1c16:28
hedkandicjwatson, I was just installing ubuntu and it says in the installation16:28
mdz(please review)16:28
hedkandi"let us know about your ubuntu experience: ubuntu.com/community"16:28
hedkandiand I have been to that url, and I can't find any way to "let us know about your ubuntu experience"16:29
mdzthat's not an ideal link for feedback16:29
hedkandimdz, well that's not my fault is it?16:29
mdzhedkandi: nobody said it was, relax :-)16:29
pittimdz: looks great, thank you16:29
hedkandiIt also says "we want ubuntu to work as well for you as possible"16:30
hedkandihahaha16:30
hedkandibut seriously....16:30
hedkandicjwatson, how shall I "let us know about your ubuntu experience"16:30
cjwatsonI think that that text is a bug16:31
hypera1rnothing is bug free nowadays eh16:31
cjwatson(I didn't write it)16:31
hedkandiokay I'll file it as a bug then16:32
hedkandiin launchpad, and I'll say you agree it's a bug16:32
cjwatsonthe correct package would be ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu16:32
cjwatsonhedkandi: that said, at the left of that page, there's a link labelled "Report a Problem"16:33
hedkandiindeed and it sent me on to ubuntu-devel mailing list which is run by cjw16:34
cjwatsonI moderate that list, yes16:35
hedkandiso would you like me to "let us know about your ubuntu experience" on that list then?16:35
cjwatsonbut the first link there ("bug reporting tutorial") has directions on reporting bugs16:35
cjwatsonno; read the text around the links16:36
hedkandiok16:36
cjwatson"Features and policy discussions should be discussed on ...", "Development ideas should be discussed on ..."16:36
cjwatsonthe basic problem is that people have lots of different kinds of feedback, not all of which are appropriate for a single place16:36
=== hypera1r is now known as hyperair
hedkandiwell what category would you put "let us know about your ubuntu experience in" then?16:40
hedkandiI'm just doing what I was asked to do by the ubuntu installer16:41
geseris sync processing somehow on hold? (or I'm just impatient?)16:41
hedkandiMore specifically, I'm asking "how do I let them know about my ubuntu experience"?16:41
hedkandiwell you can think about that.16:42
hedkandiI have a different problem to ask about.16:43
hedkandiCHANGE OF TOPIC16:43
hedkandiI just installed package grub from karmic, and I think I have a bug in it16:43
hedkandiI'll put it in a pastebin16:44
geseris there a way to figure out why a package got demoted to universe? (before I file a bug to move it back as it's needed as a build-dependency in main)16:44
hedkandihttp://pastebin.com/d1b5dc56b16:45
hedkandiit doesn't seem to operate16:45
cjwatsongeser: not in general - it's usually just because it fell out of the seeds16:52
cjwatsonwow, hedkandi is the least patient person ever16:53
=== didrocks_ is now known as didrocks
=== WelshDragon is now known as Guest62734
=== bdefreese2 is now known as bddebian
* cjwatson observes a file called ;! added in ubuntu-meta 1.175, and wonders if pitti is engaging in some interesting developer security experiments? :-)17:13
pitticjwatson: argh, looks like some vim spewage17:13
pittithe kind of thing that mistyping :w! :q would leave behind or so17:14
cjwatsonyeah :) I'm nuking it17:14
cjwatsonI do that kind of thing all the time, really17:14
pittithanks for cleaning up :)17:14
=== Guest62734 is now known as WelshDragon
=== WelshDragon is now known as Guest25231
=== deryck is now known as deryck[lunch]
kees__mdz: DMB email looks good to me17:45
=== kees__ is now known as kees
dmb?17:46
dmbcan i help you sir?17:46
mdzdmb, different DMB, I'm afraid17:46
dmb:P17:46
mdzcjwatson, any comments on the developer membership board email?17:46
=== yofel_ is now known as yofel
=== Lutin is now known as Guest13765
=== Guest13765 is now known as Lutin
james_wurgh, cjwatson: thanks for your bug report. Nasty bug.18:01
cjwatsonjames_w: do you want it as a proper bug somewhere?18:03
james_wcjwatson: just filing it myself18:03
cjwatsonah, thanks, sorry18:04
james_wunless you want the karma?18:04
james_wbug 49412318:06
ubottuLaunchpad bug 494123 in bzr-builddeb "merge-package does the wrong thing when when upstream goes from n.m to n.p where (m < 10) and (p >= 10)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/49412318:06
* apw tried to update and finds a collision between kdelibs5 and ibnepomukqury518:08
cjwatsonjames_w: I will live without :)18:13
james_wcjwatson: you could fix it, that probably gets more karma ;-)18:13
cjwatsonok, I'll have a look when I have some network bandwidth again18:14
james_wnah, I was just kidding18:16
james_wtests are running now to confirm the one-line fix passes18:16
=== yofel_ is now known as yofel
ccheneyyipee, i just read about the new feature in 2.6.32 making it 'slower' but causing systems from completely freezing on write18:17
* ccheney was having that problem with karmic last night18:17
* ccheney may upgrade his systems to lucid soon in that case18:18
=== deryck[lunch] is now known as deryck
=== nxvl_ is now known as nxvl
=== slangasek changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: main frozen for alpha-1 | MoM running (but use bzr!) | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper-karmic | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
=== mac_v_ is now known as mac_v
=== dendro-afk is now known as dendrobates
=== micahg1 is now known as micahg
Keybukpitti: I've noticed one thing since the HALsectomy of X19:47
Keybukwhen resuming from suspend, I can type my passphrase *straight away*19:47
Keybukno silly 2-3s of no input devices19:47
mneptok"I'm sorry, Dave. I can't locate the keyboard right now. Why don;t you take a stress pill?"19:49
=== vorian_ is now known as v
=== v is now known as vorian
slangasekKeybuk: yes, this is an expected side-effect and the reason that I was nagging bryce as actively as I was ;)19:54
ogrado we need to add a "sleep 3" to not trash user experience here ?19:54
slangasekGod no19:55
ogra:)19:55
Keybukslangasek: though I have noticed xkbcomp has come back19:57
slangasekoop19:57
slangaseks19:57
slangasekKeybuk: hey, so I've got a solution to rc2 not waiting for localhost19:58
slangasekand it's fugly19:58
slangasekdo you want to review it before I commit to bzr? :)19:58
Keybuksure19:59
slangasekKeybuk: http://paste.ubuntu.com/337524/20:05
Keybukslangasek: will fail to switch runlevels ever again20:05
Keybukas each runlevel change will spin waiting for the loopback to come up20:06
Keybuk(why the pre-start btw?)20:06
slangasekKeybuk: no, that's precisely what the pre-start addresses... :)20:06
Keybukhow does the pre-start address that?20:06
Keybukit doesn't do anything20:06
slangasekone job to capture the loopback event and wrap it as a job status; the other job watches for this job to be up and doesn't continue until it is20:06
Keybukit's the same as not having one20:06
Keybukthough your sick and twisted idea, gives me a better one20:07
slangasekuhoh :)20:07
syn-ackAlright, lets give this another try, shall we?20:08
Keybukhmm, no, my idea doesn't work either20:09
Keybukwhy not add "and net-device-up IFACE=lo" to the rc-sysinit.conf file ?20:10
slangasekKeybuk: do you understand what I'm doing here, then?  I haven't changed the 'start on' condition, so runlevel changes will still work, they just all wait until loopback is started before processing anything20:10
slangasekhmm20:10
Keybukslangasek: yes, though you don't need that pre-start at all20:10
Keybukslangasek: but I don't want to do it that way, the entire point is to get rid of sick while loops like that20:10
slangasekwhat would you do instead of the pre-start?20:11
Keybukslangasek: nothing20:11
slangasekyes, I realize that's the /point/, but it doesn't /work/ :)20:11
slangaseklooking at the rc-sysinit, though20:11
syn-ackBingo20:11
slangasekI think the reason I avoided that was that conceptually, rcS should /not/ block on loopback20:11
syn-ackjjohansen, Workie workie20:11
Keybukslangasek: in practice it probably should20:11
Keybuksince bringing up the loopback used to be one of the very first things we did in rcS20:12
Keybukso things in rcS probably assumed it20:12
slangasekI haven't found anything that does; but if you prefer that, I think it's an acceptable approximation20:12
Keybukyeah I much prefer that20:12
Keybukaside note, all processes are optional in Upstart20:12
Keybukyou can have a job that just has "start on ... " and "stop on ..."20:13
jjohansensyn-ack: good20:13
slangasekKeybuk: ah, ok20:13
syn-ackjjohansen, Thanks again, if you'd like I don't mind testing out your mainlines.20:13
Keybuk(or just "description" if you really like <g>)20:13
jjohansensyn-ack: I'll take all the testing I can get20:14
jjohansenthanks20:14
syn-ackGood deal. I have to thank Paul van der does for pointing me to you.20:14
jjohansenah, nice to know.  Just poke me if you hit any problems20:17
slangasekKeybuk: ok, will test to confirm and push to bzr (and for SRU)20:17
ionOr just an empty file. :-P20:17
Keybukion: I don't think it allows an empty file20:18
ionOh, ok20:18
Keybukit might20:19
Keybukapparently it does20:19
Keybukshows what I know ;)20:19
=== dendrobates is now known as dendro-afk
apwslangasek, thanks for the feedback on the nfs-kernel-server patch.  i've updated the patch and attached it to the bug.  perhaps you could check it over at your leisure: bug #49314520:39
ubottuLaunchpad bug 493145 in nfs-utils "[Lucid] NFS kernel server doesn't work anymore with 2.6.32" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/49314520:39
=== Al2O3_ is now known as Al2O3
=== robbiew is now known as robbiew-afk
=== robbiew-afk is now known as robbiew_
bgamariShouldn't gfortran now be an alternative for f77?20:56
bgamariIf I'm not mistaken, g77 was deprecated in favor of gfortran20:56
jdstrandslangasek: hey-- I've got an ntp security update I'd like to upload to lucid. should I wait til friday or can I still get it in?20:57
=== asac_ is now known as asac
slangasekapw: just to be sure - "2005" means this symbol is definitely present in the hardy kernel?  (Have you checked this?)21:46
apwi have not checked ... /me looks21:46
slangasekjdstrand: ntp> looks like a good thing to have in ASAP, please go ahead (if it's going to get done today)21:47
apwslangasek, the commit which makes that variable a global was in v2.6.15-rc121:48
slangasekok, cool21:48
apwthough i wasn't expecting that change to go back before lucid21:48
apwahh debian?21:48
slangasekapw: debian; and having the kernel server not fail to restart during package upgrades from hardy21:50
slangaseks/kernel/nfs/21:50
apwyeah sneaky21:51
jdstrandslangasek: oh yes, it'll be done today. it's... uploaded just now :)21:52
jdstrandslangasek: thanks!21:52
slangasekapw: uploaded, thanks!21:57
apwslangasek, thank you21:57
=== sam_ is now known as smfl
jcastrochrisccoulson: thanks for pointing the transmission dev to me for bug control.22:52
chrisccoulsonhey jcastro22:52
chrisccoulsondid he contact you then?22:52
jcastroyep, I got him squared away22:52
chrisccoulsoni just suggested yesterday that he should perhaps apply now :)22:53
jcastroalready approved him based on his history22:53
jcastroI have an unrelated question for you since I have you here.22:53
chrisccoulsonjcastro - excellent, thanks :)22:53
chrisccoulsonfire away ;)22:53
jcastroI have an upstream that depends on hal, I would like to point him in the right direction to move away from hal, I need to point him to ... ?22:53
chrisccoulsonit depends what it uses HAL for22:54
jcastrodetecting cameras, the upstream is Shotwell22:54
Amaranthgphoto?22:54
jcastrohttp://yorba.org/shotwell/ these guys22:54
chrisccoulsonit could possibly use gphoto for accessing cameras22:55
chrisccoulsonbut GVFS already has a gphoto backend, making camera devices available via GIO (which is what f-spot does, I think)22:55
chrisccoulsonit seems that f-spot can also access cameras directly via gphoto22:58
ccheneyso if you don't want people filing bugs on your ppa it won't show your ppa at all?23:01
* ccheney is confused23:01
ccheneyah nm it calls it 'external downloads' now apparently23:02
jcastroccheney: are you back on OOo this cycle?23:02
ccheneyjcastro: yea23:02
seb128jcastro, you are a C# hater aren't you? ;-)23:02
seb128jcastro, trying to get f-spot replaced now? ;-)23:02
jcastroOOo upstream report is kind of hurting23:02
jcastroseb128: no, I met them at guadec and they want to get into universe. :D23:02
seb128oh good23:02
jcastroseb128: have you tried it lately? they've really come along23:03
jcastroand gthumb has been pretty brutal now too23:03
seb128dunno if you have seen this guy suggesting replacing f-spot for lucid23:03
jcastroI saw the thread.23:03
seb128no I didn't23:03
seb128I should23:03
seb128but same reply than for banshee23:03
ccheneyjcastro: yea i need some community people to help with OOo, have lots of stuff to do and several hundred new bugs as well23:03
seb128now is not good time for tech changes23:03
chrisccoulsoni have to admit defeat now, and say that i don't know if you can use gphoto for detecting camera devices, or whether you need to use some other mechanism23:03
jcastroI appreciate the passion but tbh this kind of thing needed to be done during UDS.23:03
jcastroI agree23:03
* ccheney will be working on firefox as well this cycle23:04
jcastrochrisccoulson: I'll settle for telling them to ask someone at GNOME what to do. :D23:04
jcastroccheney: let's link up tomorrow, I'd like to help round people up23:04
chrisccoulsonjcastro - gphoto is the safe option, i'm sure23:04
chrisccoulsonand gvfs can mount these cameras anyway :)23:04
jcastroseb128: I will respond to them after I respond to the shotwell guys23:04
ccheneyjcastro: ok23:05
jcastroseb128: tbh a healthy photo deathmatch for +1 would be great23:07
chrisccoulsonheh, gksudo doesn't like the client-side decorated GTK23:07
seb128chrisccoulson, somebody commented on the bug saying that too23:07
seb128chrisccoulson, did you run into the issue or just read the bug comment?23:08
chrisccoulsonah, i haven't checked that yet23:08
chrisccoulsongksudo crashes with a BadWindow X error23:08
seb128kenvandine, ^23:08
seb128rickspencer3, ^ not pushing client side = good move23:08
chrisccoulsoni havent looked at it further yet, as I've got other stuff I need to get done first23:08
chrisccoulsonyeah, it seems like it's a bit too crack-ful right now23:08
rickspencer3yeah23:08
rickspencer3I would have thought that the developers had tested it a tad more by now23:09
rickspencer3but I guess that's why you need breadth23:09
rickspencer3anyway, PPA and call for testing was certainly the right call23:09
chrisccoulsondefinately23:09
chrisccoulsonif only there was a good venue for testers to report bugs to PPA packages :)23:09
=== lfaraone_ is now known as lfaraone
seb128chrisccoulson, how come we are not using #ubunt-desktop btw?23:10
seb128#ubuntu-desktop23:10
seb128bratsche is there23:10
chrisccoulsonseb128 - good question23:10
chrisccoulsoni've got no idea how i ended up in here ;)23:10
seb128it's all jcastro's fault23:10
chrisccoulsonlol23:10
seb128I though we were on #ubuntu-desktop23:10
chrisccoulsonme too23:10
jcastrome three23:11
seb128;-)23:11
ccheneygrr ppa description field now strips out all returns. :(23:16
ccheneywhen editing it shows them but strips them for display23:16
ccheneyer not exactly, it seems to have non-determinstic behavior23:17
ccheneysometimes it displays it wrong without the returns for some reason23:17
* ccheney stops looking at it before it breaks again23:18
maxbWhenever update-manager runs debconf, I get an error: "Failed to contact configuration server; some possible causes are that you need to enable TCP/IP networking for ORBit ...." - can anyone point me in any useful debugging avenues?23:28
keesjames_w: the gawk bzr history seems broken (it does not show my upload for karmic) ...23:33
james_wkees: gawk had problems importing later versions23:33
james_wso it's out of date23:34
keesjames_w: how do I detect/report these kinds of things?23:34
james_whttp://package-import.ubuntu.com/failures/.bzr/failures/ shows the current list of failures23:35
james_wreporting a bug on the LP 'udd' project will get me to look at it though23:35
dipponaughthow do i use apport-retrace without logging into launchpad (so theres no "mess ups")?23:36
keesjames_w: ok, next up, "john" is not on that list, but fails to get anything to merge from squeeze.  :)23:38
maxbjames_w: Also, almost all of the zero-byte files have gone... except python-defaults. What's the case there?23:39
james_wmaxb: I told it to import them all, lool has asked me to do something special with python-defaults23:40
james_whe has some more debian history, so I'm going to do that one a bit more by-hand23:40
james_wwas that the one that you had created -unofficial branches for?23:40
maxbyes23:41
maxbhence being quite interested in some official ones :-)23:41
james_wkees: john will be available to merge in a few minutes23:53
james_wapologies for the hassle23:53
keesjames_w: np, when I looked at it closely, it's a sync.23:56
keesjames_w: how about "smarty" ?23:56
keesalso not listed in failures.23:56
james_wsame issue?23:56
james_wi.e. debian out of date, not Ubuntu23:56
keesyeah23:56
keesthe merge-package reported "ERROR: Nothing to merge."23:57
james_wkees: smarty will be available for merge in a few23:59

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!