[00:01] nothing, but reading the buzz, users have no clue [00:02] hahaahahahahahahahaha [00:03] well I got extentions on it [00:03] a bunch too [00:03] like 11 [00:03] but ad block no worki :( [00:03] and since google closed my bug to allow Text zoom, with Won't Fix [00:03] I need to find me an Ext for it [00:04] love nosquint in firefox [00:04] [reed]: you should make that default in FF :) [00:04] <[reed]> ? [00:04] <[reed]> make what default? [00:05] [reed]: nosquint i guess ;) [00:05] probably some minority extesion ;) [00:05] <[reed]> I have no idea what that is [00:05] out of the 70 used by BUGabundo [00:05] asac: 30 or less now [00:05] let me check [00:05] wow [00:05] there is progress [00:05] [reed]: its an addon to control page and text zoom [00:05] memorizes for each page and domain [00:06] and allow BOTH to be set at the same time [00:06] asac: 28 http://paste.ubuntu.com/337660/ [00:06] woot [00:06] all working in FF 3.7 [00:06] <[reed]> yeah, sounds niche-y [00:06] had to kill xmarks, its broken [00:07] [reed]: even google killed my bug [00:07] <[reed]> especially since Firefox already supports text and page zoom [00:07] when the swiched from text too to page zoom [00:07] I asked them to keep botj [00:07] <[reed]> we support both [00:07] [reed]: with a toggle, doesn't remember, [00:07] <[reed]> that was a long discussion [00:07] and can't set BOTH [00:07] swthing to one, resets the other [00:09] [reed]: one other addon I would love to be core in FF is fullerscreen [00:09] <[reed]> what does that do that firefox doesn't already support? [00:10] try it :) [00:10] it auto shows the top bar and status bar [00:10] for example [00:11] weird bug in TB3: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=533582 [00:11] Mozilla bug 533582 in Folder and Message Lists "Return not showing as a space in subject in message list" [Normal,New] [00:11] allows user to choose witch bars to show [00:26] hello, I was the ubuntu-mozilla team has a ppa with daily builds of thunderbird, is there a PPA where only stable releases (like the current 3 or the future 3.0.1) are added? [00:27] gioele: it's in the works [00:28] micahg: great [00:28] do you know whether thunderbird 3 will be backported to karmic? [00:29] gioele: not sure yet [00:29] gioele: not soon [00:29] well, a PPA is more than enough === asac_ is now known as asac [01:00] oohh one more thing I love in chromium [01:00] no need to restart it [01:00] to install or enable extentions [01:01] wish FF 4.0 will bring addons in an another process and sandbox [01:01] so it can be applied in real time [01:02] it's pretty easy to crash chromium still [01:03] is it? [01:03] five or six LP "tabs", one Flash "tab" [01:03] I haven't managed to [01:03] BUGabundo: firefox folks are working on that. i would expect that to happens after 3.7 [01:03] kill chromium, restart it then click restore [01:03] I think I only killed Ch like twice so far [01:03] after months of usage [01:04] then again my work instance doesn't have flash on Ch [01:04] only my laptop [01:04] my prediction is that in the end we will have two great browsers ;) ... firefox probably being stronger on extension side; while chromium might still be stronger on performance etc. [01:04] and I don't use flashy sites that much [01:04] plus now I have flashblock for it [01:04] asac: err its been like that for 6 months [01:05] not a great 2010 prediction [01:05] :D [01:05] hehe [01:06] saying that both move closer on the properties where they currently differ a lot [01:09] Will there be a PPA with a stable Thunderbird 3 package? [01:10] coppro: eventually [01:10] yay! [01:11] asac, ./debian/rules get-orig-source LOCAL_BRANCH=../upstream/chromium-beta.svn CHANNEL=beta [01:11] coppro: I'll try to get a note on Planet Ubuntu when it happens [01:11] fta: cool ... how does that gather the tags? or is that some other feature? [01:11] it seems to work just fine [01:11] pftt. they still use svn [01:11] what a mess [01:11] -rw-r--r-- 1 fta fta 81307763 2009-12-09 02:10 chromium-browser_4.0.249.30~r33928.orig.tar.gz [01:11] cool, may have to subscribe [01:12] fta: so they only commit on that branch? [01:12] one good thing about shared svn repo is that the svn revision increases for all branches ;) [01:12] yes, i bet on that in my code :P [01:12] asac: that's one of the things I don't like about svn :) [01:12] so there is _some_ benefit for svn [01:12] -bet+depend [01:12] haha [01:13] micahg: for me its the only good feature atm ;) [01:13] the thing is, i'm not sure my local branch will work when they move to another branch [01:14] fta: if you checkout the full repo and they share the repo it probably should just work [01:14] though i dont know how you guess the right branch [01:14] just work == from the repo point of view ... e.g. svn up just does the right thing [01:14] i have to dig as i only know the full version number [01:15] where are those published for channels? [01:15] e.g. do they have a a BETA.meta file? [01:15] that always gets bumped etc.? [01:15] http://src.chromium.org/svn/releases/LATEST.txt [01:16] hmm. no sign of what subdir to use [01:16] is it always a "beta/" directrory? [01:16] ok so they also tag all dev channel releases? [01:17] do the dailies track that? or real dailies? (head of trunkish) [01:17] hmm. if they tag they put it in tags/ dir i guess [01:17] i had to ask a dozen times but they finally published that info [01:17] no, i get from that LASTEST file a version X.Y.Z.T, then i look for it in http://src.chromium.org/svn/branches/ [01:17] so you can just use tags/$TAG [01:18] using svn log looking for chrome/VERSION changes [01:18] fta: but what is that info. isnt that tags? [01:18] shouldnt we just follow those tags for the dailies (dev) beta (beta) and stable (stable) repos? [01:18] they don't tag everything, most of the time, it's just a release commit [01:18] but 4.0.249.30 is not a svn revision [01:18] nope [01:18] so i assume they tag it or do they sometimes publish svn revisions there? [01:18] e.g. there [01:19] 33928 is [01:19] http://src.chromium.org/svn/releases/LATEST.txt [01:19] yes. [01:19] but now that they publish latest is there any reason not to follow like i said above? [01:19] or maybe habve daily, dev, beta, stable ? [01:19] * asac thinks that stemp would be unhappy if dev gets tagged daily ;) [01:20] what do you think i'm doing now? [01:20] i dont know. i thought tracking tags would make sense [01:20] but you seem to track branches/... [01:20] and figure the latest revision (by tag?) [01:20] thats what i understood from what you said [01:20] CHANNEL=beta will return the same thing everyday (so no rebuild) until LATEST.txt points to something else [01:21] yeah. what are you doing when that changes? [01:21] (point to something else) [01:21] it's not tracking tip of those branches, but the exact revid that has that version number [01:22] right thats beta [01:22] same for dev [01:22] what i suggest is probably "CHANNEL=dev" for daily [01:22] or add a dev ppa ;) [01:22] they will all be dailies [01:22] right [01:22] so you plan to eliminate the current daily ppa? [01:22] or use that as =dev channel? [01:23] or keep it running like now (assuming you get the tip of branch atm) [01:23] ? [01:23] no [01:23] why should i? [01:23] no for what? [01:24] eliminate i guess. right. so we will have four ppas? [01:24] daily (tip), dev, beta, stable? [01:24] or dev, beta, stable? [01:24] the existing daily tracks the tip or the last known green rev of trunk [01:25] the other 3 channels track revid in branches [01:25] yes [01:25] so we will have 4 ppas ;) [01:25] (when stable exists) [01:25] yes [01:25] ok. understood then ;) [01:26] the other thing implied was whether the dev tagging happens frequently enough that we dont need the dailies [01:26] but i think you answered your opinion on that too ;) [01:26] gave your opinion rather [01:26] i will keep an eye on that LATEST file for a while as i don't know [01:27] ok cool. makes sense. [01:30] i should now teach the bot how to pass arbitrary parameters to g-o-s [01:31] but tomorrow [01:31] sure good night [01:31] * asac vanishes quickly [01:42] i also realize that my bot is not designed to manage several versions of the same package in parallel. tarballs, bd build area, etc.. they should be per pocket/ppa, not per bot instance [01:43] grrr, patches diverged, .head is ahead of several weeks [09:55] hey, Moz dudes [09:55] in karmic, spidermonkey was made part of the xulrunner package [09:55] who do I need to talk to about that? :) [09:55] is that asac? [10:16] aquarius: spidermonkey was always part of xulrunner [10:22] asac, we've got https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/couchdb/+bug/418762 -- couchdb used to depend on libmozjs0d, but now it depends on xulrunner because libmozjs0d was pulled back into the xulrunner package, and xulrunner depends on X, which means that couchdb depends on X [10:22] Ubuntu bug 418762 in couchdb "CouchDB in Karmic should not have dependencies on X stuff" [Undecided,Confirmed] [10:22] What I'd like is for someone who understands the reason that that decision was taken to comment on the bug :) [10:25] asac, have I understood what's happened correctly, there? [10:29] aquarius: the libmozjs0d thing comes from a year old rotten ols xul 1.8 package we got from debian [10:30] asac, yeah, that's what I thought. Can you explain the reasoning behind moving it back into xulrunner on that bug? [10:30] the reason why we dont export a lib is because its not a lib you should use [10:30] its sad but true [10:31] mozilla does not want to provide any API/ABI guarantees ... even on stble branches [10:31] so using mozjs is a timebomb [10:31] so everyone using libmozjs i can only say: dont use it ;) [10:31] so your opinion is that couchdb shouldn't be using spidermonkey at all? [10:31] yes [10:32] ah. maybe I don't want you to comment on the bug, then :) [10:32] even sader, there is no realy js engine that is stable [10:32] * aquarius grins [10:32] yeah, I know :( [10:32] couchdb should never have used javascript [10:32] one second [10:35] asac: are you looking for this: bug 286906 [10:35] Launchpad bug 286906 in xulrunner "provide and support a top-level library package for libmozjs (Was: Unable to use libmozjs.so in an application, because of library path problem.)" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/286906 [10:35] yes ;) [10:35] i am looking for the upstream bug [10:35] aquarius: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=506890 [10:35] Mozilla bug 506890 in Build Config "Make it possible for Ubuntu to provide libmozjs.so as a system library" [Normal,New] [10:36] read that ;) [10:37] does the following comment reflect your views? "The Ubuntu mozillateam confirm that libmozjs0d should not be exported as a separate library; this is why it's in the xulrunner package. That it was packaged separately in the past was a legacy mistake which has since been corrected. There is bug #286906 to provide a separate moz-js library." [10:37] Launchpad bug 286906 in xulrunner "provide and support a top-level library package for libmozjs (Was: Unable to use libmozjs.so in an application, because of library path problem.)" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/286906 [10:37] i posted the bug to the bug [10:37] ah, cheers [10:37] should not == cannot be [10:37] because of a non-existing ABI/API policy upstream [10:38] actually, I might just make our bug a dupe of the other one [10:38] probably [10:39] done. Cheers, pal :) [10:39] aquarius: is there no way we can get rid of couchdb? [10:39] or the js dependency ;) [10:39] Nope. [10:39] i mean: v8 has the same attitude [10:39] we will never get a lib for that [10:39] mozjs -> no lib [10:39] not sure what is left ... maybe rhino [10:39] moving to java completely [10:40] that people want to use javascript as a programming language does not mean that the fault is theirs :) [10:40] well ;) [10:40] imo it is [10:40] Perhaps external people wanting to use spidermonkey will convince upstream Moz that providing some form of API/ABI non-breakage policy would be a good idea [10:40] anyone doing business neess to explore its supply market before going into production ;) [10:41] aquarius: yes. [10:41] aquarius: software embedders need to comment on the bug above [10:41] i refrained from commenting alltogether after reading the whole attitude there [10:41] "canonical wants to freeride etc." [10:42] or perhaps there's a market space for someone to provide a JS lib which is actually suitable for embedding, rather than quite a few which pretend they are suitable for embedding and actually are not ;) [10:42] i only raised the bug because it made me sad [10:42] _but_ i wouldnt hope too much [10:42] i had extensive talks about moz attitude towards embedders/consumers of their libs [10:42] its basically the same discussion we had for mozembed for a decadae [10:42] firefox is just too successful for them to care in any way [10:43] imo a stragic mistake ... but well ;). i wont start this again ;) [10:43] yeah. However...perhaps the lesson of mozembed will sink in a bit, since now everyone uses webkit and mozembed was around before webkit even *existed*. Perhaps. [10:43] aquarius: so what someone could do is maintain a wrapper around mozjs/v8 that just exposes a minimal api etc. [10:43] * aquarius grins. Yeah, I'm not trying to push your buttons just to annoy you, promise ;) [10:44] aquarius: i am making the webkit argument for years ;) [10:44] also told them that a bit better attitude towards embedders might have made chrome use gecko ;) [10:44] asac, yeah, I'm starting to think that that would be a good idea. But I don't know how much the external programs (gnome-shell, couchdb,etc) actually use of the spidermonkey API. [10:44] everyone who uses it is doomed ;) [10:45] I mean, if they just call execute_some_js_and_give_me_the_result(string_of_js_code) then a wrapper would be easy :P [10:45] so what we can do is point upstreams to the bug [10:45] and refuse main inclusion (which i did in the past ... just couchdb was unhappily promoted) [10:45] aquarius: well. that kind of API would be easy to wrap [10:46] but ... checkout all the consumers [10:46] they all stab deep into the api for whatever reason i couldnt figure yet [10:46] yeah. I think I shall bring this up with the couch people. [10:46] i told mozilla that they block innovative ideas to happen on the linux desktop [10:46] they didnt care ;) [10:47] currently they are just too much focussed on fighting chrome [10:47] ;) [10:47] so no time to fix things that can prevent a second chrome ;) [10:47] * aquarius looks shocked. Shocked, I say. :) [10:47] but to some degree they are right [10:47] why should have have the obligation to do that if noone else does it [10:47] e.g. v8 dosnt want to constraint themselves [10:48] i just hoped that mozilla as being a foundation might have a more charity thinking for such decisions [10:49] yeah, they're there precisely to take the Big Picture view [10:49] aquarius: but yes. if we can migrate all users to use just "evaluate_string" we can probably maintain a stable API on our own [10:49] but i dont think its possible :/ [10:50] yeah, that I don't know about. I shall ask couch, at least. [10:50] so a first step would be agreeing on a minimal subset of the current API that is useful for all [10:50] then we can just export those symbols and i would be happy to maintain that [10:52] *nod* [10:52] I'm going to chat to the couch people and then I'll get you involved in an email thread :) [10:53] this is still you, yes, even though you've moved on to other stuff? Or have you not moved on and I've misunderstood that entirely? :) [10:54] aquarius: i took more responsibilities for now ;) [10:55] because you weren't busy before ;) [10:55] something along that line :-P [11:01] aquarius: which channel is couchdb discussion? [11:01] #couchdb [11:01] but no response from jan___ just yet [11:01] i could join there now and if that discussio nhappens while i am awake can lurk/contribute [11:01] that'd be cool, certainly [11:01] ok maybe summon my nick when the discussion happens [11:02] like "asac said..." should be enough. if i am there, i will hop over then [11:04] cheers; I will do that! [12:08] ccheney: back to life? [13:54] hey gnomefreak [13:55] long time no see [14:33] thunderstruck: same for me ... how are things going? [14:34] asac: im ok im home for about a week than im leaving again to my aunts === thunderstruck is now known as gnomefreak [14:34] ok [14:35] what are the chances of getting tb3 sm2 ff3.6 [14:41] gnomefreak: so no more cirugy ? [14:41] gnomefreak: sm2 ... not sure. tb3 + ff3.6 are close to 100% [14:42] BUGabundo_work: nope all done with that [14:43] asac: ok thanks. im doubting i will have time to update/package sm2.0 until at least mid feb. [14:43] k [14:43] we will see [14:43] maybe someone else can do the last step required [14:43] thought that sm2 was in a reasonable up-to-date state already [14:45] asac: upstream == final release or at least close. the latest i have is a while a go (4-6 months ago) i have asked to get it in at least the daily PPA but got no answer/response [14:45] hmm [14:45] yeah [14:45] but i thought that the main packaging work for sm2 was done already [14:45] so probably just bumping versoin and then checking what else is missing [14:46] asac: i havent done it or heard about it yet. cant do SM2 at this time until m-d gets fixed to beable to grab SM2 instead of SM2.1 [14:47] ah i see [14:50] be back in a few tb3 starting to piss me off ( the slow down has gotten much worse) i dont recall upstream bug number that you filed but i would like to test newest version in daily repos to see if it got better [14:51] gnomefreak: latest daily should be there (in theory) [14:55] im gonna reboot since now everything is slow ff tb ect... [15:10] much faster :) [15:31] asac: yea [15:31] great === mac_v_ is now known as mac_v === aakashd_ is now known as aakashd [15:54] mannnnn [15:54] ask and it will happen [15:54] was i asking [reed] for drag and drop tabs [15:54] and just tested it and I have drag in FF 3.7 [15:54] let me test drop [16:02] ccheney: so did you cleanup the wiki page yet? [16:02] ;) [16:02] ccheney: i have assigned a few work items surrouding that on the support model spec ;) [16:07] BUGabundo_work: so you think chromium is not ready to become the new ubuntu default browser yet ;)? [16:09] asac: on the contrary [16:09] its very very good at this point [16:10] so if you would have to go to all users you usually support and tell them that firefox is dead, would that cause pain to covince new users to try ubuntu? [16:11] ehehe [16:11] i see where you are going [16:16] asac: got it mostly cleaned, need to add the binary packages to the list [16:16] asac: i'm a cutting edge user [16:16] not the regular type [16:16] Firefox is better known and more stable AFAICT [16:16] Ch is just "prettier" and much faster (comparingto 3.5x) [16:16] if you ask me to choose between both, *right* now i would say Chromium [16:16] BUGabundo_work: i thought you also try to convince other users, helping them to install etc. :) [16:16] but maybe i didnt get that right [16:16] heck both my brother and father are using it [16:16] ;) [16:16] they use chromium? [16:16] interesting [16:16] asac: i do user support too [16:16] and used to do Formation classes [16:17] no time for that now [16:17] right. i dont want to hear your opinion ... just what you think their opinion would be [16:17] well Chrome (win PCs) [16:17] ah [16:17] ok [16:17] but of course i cant let go FF yet [16:18] its the unique browser that allows me to some stuff the way i like it too [16:18] but know with Ch addons, its getting pretty close [16:18] k thx. [16:18] was a hypothetical question btw [16:18] From an user POV I just want speed (open and load), stability, personalization [16:18] Ch wins 1st, FF wins 2 and 3rd [16:19] feel free to ask anytime [16:19] i'll spill my guts on it [16:19] :9 [16:19] even if not asked [16:19] :pp [16:19] btw, love the new NM icons [16:19] great ;) [16:21] asac: do we need the list of binary packages in the list or is the list of sources enough? [16:23] ccheney: the main column should have source ... and the list of binary depends should be in a second column ... as it helps us to understand in what way its using xulrunner (e.g. plugins vs. extensions vs. embedders) [16:23] once we have that we will categorize each source in one of those categories [16:23] and then assign priorities and security risk to them [16:24] ok i see :) [17:16] my fav chromium extention: explode https://chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/hniojmjkfmakikcfighiifjflnecmnjn [17:38] Hello and thanks for TB 3.0. I installed it in karmic via the terminal, but even if it seems to be working fine I got this message: *INFO* No /home/britta/.thunderbird-3.0 detected. Create it from /home/britta/.mozilla-thunderbird. Can somebody please tell me what the problem might be? The folder is where it should be, so am slightly confused. [17:38] britta_: that should just happen on first start [17:38] thats because in the past tbird had a different directory [17:38] asac, ok, so just close the terminal window and don't lose any sleep? [17:39] so this copies the old dir to the new location [17:39] britta_: yes. if you got all your settings preserved etc. then all is fine [17:39] asac, it looks fine. Great. Look forward to using the new features. thanks again :) [17:41] asac, oops :( closed the terminal. This shut down TB too, and on restarting thunderbird I'm back on the old version... [17:43] ok, so have to start it from the terminal. Sorry. Will stop babbling :) [17:43] britta_: huh? [17:43] where did you get tbird from? [17:43] how did you install? [17:44] asac, I used the 2nd method from this guide http://www.ubuntu-inside.me/2009/08/howto-install-thunderbird-3-beta-on.html [17:44] but now I see it's beta. I should learn to sit on my hands. [17:45] britta_: the menu entry is called "Shredder" i guess [17:45] you're right [17:45] we will replace your thunderbird when we bring this to the archive [17:46] britta_: if you got todays snapshot its almost exactly 3.0 final [17:46] asac, so no need for me to mess about? [17:46] I did it only a few minutes ago [17:46] mess about? [17:46] i say: continue using it ;) [17:46] report issues back [17:46] ah yes... google, find solutions etc etc :) [17:46] but be aware that a new upgrade might be more unstable as its a daily build you subscribed to [17:47] britta_: no. if you have issues we want to hear directly about it here [17:47] regressions. e.g. things that worked in 2 but dont work anymore. etc. [17:47] I'm brave. this is my private computer. not my work box. [17:47] ok cool [17:47] usually the dailies are fine ;=) [17:47] and now that 3.0 is out they focus on 3.1 anyway i would think [17:47] with just a few follow up fixes to stabilize on 3.0 bugs [17:47] etc. [17:47] asac, for some obscure reason I seem to stay the eternal newbie, will I get daily updates automatically? [17:48] yes [17:48] smashing :) [17:48] if added the apt lines from that page [17:48] I did [17:48] then you will get them each and every day ;) [17:48] unless the daily build failed [17:48] beautiful. [17:48] which can happen from time to time ;) [17:49] well, anything can :) So, if I do experience 'weirdities' you'd like to hear about them on this channel? [17:51] well, third tab gives me a 404 Not Found. : Not Found [17:51] The requested URL /thunderbird-3.0/whatsnew was not found on this server. [17:51] Apache/2.2.3 (CentOS) Server at live.mozillamessaging.com Port 80 [18:43] asac: i need to track down anything that depends on anything that xulrunner source produces, right? [18:43] asac: eg including things depending on libxul0d ? [18:43] ccheney: in theory yes. in practice just what is produced by xulrunner-1.9 and 1.9.1 sources [18:47] ok [18:50] micahg, asac: no daily today, my server was isolated from internet [18:50] ok [19:17] fta: ah ok ;) [20:16] micahg, spinning umd now. my network seems stable now [20:16] anyone have a Karmic set up using thunderbird-2.0.0.23 and willing to try to reproduce a bug? [20:57] anyone know what package to file a bug on for system beep bug [21:52]