[18:13] <Equiet_> Software Center History done. http://i49.tinypic.com/29zsifb.jpg
[18:29] <tretle> any idea whether rgba is enabled globally by default in the alpha 1 build of lucid?
[18:31] <tretle> kwwii - I assume that the plan is to rework the gtk theme with transparent fun if the rgba stuff works out?
[18:31] <coz_> Equiet_,  is that a mock up or a new theme?
[18:32] <kwwii> tretle: not sure how much of that will make it into lucid...depending on that, yes, we will include as much as possible
[18:32] <thorwil> Equiet_: neat. i think i see varying slight color tints in the greys, though
[18:32] <kwwii> tretle: the rgba stuff we have been working on allows a person to set an alpha value to whole classes of widgets
[18:33] <tretle> Would it not also be a great boon for cimi's rgba transparent gtk work
[18:34] <kwwii> so for instance, we can set all menu- and tool-bars in unfoused windows slightly slightly transparent
[18:34] <kwwii> this allows us to enable transapency without touching apps ;)
[18:35] <tretle> Cimi must be estatic :D
[18:35] <tretle> Was a shame that the gtk guys had no interest in it
[18:35] <thorwil> kwwii: there's already mechanism to thme widgets different depending on window focus?
[18:35] <thorwil> theme, even
[18:36] <tretle> great contribution from canonical in my view
[18:37] <tretle> thorwil - rgba gtk transparency?
[18:37] <thorwil> tretle: i mean in general
[18:38] <tretle> I would assume that transparency would add variables to the equation the current system does not account for.
[18:40] <tretle> out of curiosity was upstart still used along with xsplash for 9.10, hence the two different boot up themes?
[18:41] <tretle> whoops
[18:41] <tretle> usplash
[18:42] <Equiet_> coz_: A mockup.
[18:43] <coz_> Equiet_,   yeah I was just curious what was going on with the screenshot:)
[18:45] <kwwii> thorwil: yes, with both rgba and the cs windeco code we will have it
[18:46] <kwwii> and this is all in patches for gtk, so it will all go upstream
[18:46] <Equiet_> thorwil: Yeah, there is a lot of color grey diferences. Mainly the zebra effects in events and months.
[18:46] <Equiet_> If you mean this.
[18:48] <thorwil> Equiet_: i mean yellowish, greenish and blueish tints in the greys. from experience i know that this can be misleading, as it is much about context
[18:49]  * tretle thinks its kinda sad it took this long for global rgba support to make it into gtk but happy canonical pushed some progression on the subject :D
[18:50] <thorwil> Equiet_: you could do without the rectangles around the numbers
[18:57] <Equiet_> thorwil: Without them it looks quite unsorted with random brown rectangles. But with just one rectangle behind all numbers...
[18:58] <thorwil> Equiet_: that's a matter of how you style the divisions
[18:59] <Equiet_> thorwil: http://i48.tinypic.com/2qv8kk3.jpg , http://i48.tinypic.com/1zxdh2.jpg
[19:00] <thorwil> Equiet_: starting from the first, try lines between the numbers, reachung up to the bars
[19:01] <thorwil> Equiet_: then try to fade the lines out at top and bottom
[19:01] <thorwil> Equiet_: also try white lines and adjust the background there
[19:07] <tretle> actually I think the gtk box around the numbers 18-24 in november looks weird, unusual to see it rendered in that way rather than go with a standard highlight color
[19:11] <Equiet_> thorwil: http://i46.tinypic.com/5eeirq.jpg
[19:12] <thorwil> Equiet_: i think that works fine
[19:12] <Equiet_> Looks like I will need serious auto upload tool for this.
[19:13] <coz_> oo that last link isnt opening here
[19:13] <coz_> there i is
[19:14] <Equiet_> tretle: Please, explain a little bit more.
[19:14] <thorwil> mac_v: stop trolling kerberos ;)
[19:14] <mac_v> thorwil: had too much of him ;p
[19:15] <mac_v> thorwil: is he a friend of yours ? [didnt mean to offend you ;) ]
[19:15] <thorwil> mac_v: no. i have none ;p
[19:15] <mac_v> lol
[19:16] <thorwil> mac_v: he's right regarding the big picture, but totally blind to what has been going on. or he's actually having fun with the list, like you do ...
[19:16] <mac_v> thorwil: hei!
[19:18] <mac_v> thorwil: big picture everyone knows... but what to do/how to deal is the problem ;)
[19:18] <thorwil> Equiet_: i think what tretle means is that you should try to indicate the selection with a filled rect like you see on item selection in nautilus
[19:19] <thorwil> mac_v: make everyone do what i say would be one way. but i guess that's not popular :)
[19:22] <thorwil> Equiet_: though i bet he didn't think of direct manipulation
[19:24] <tretle> yeah thats what I meant
[19:25] <thorwil> tretle: the intention might be to have a resize-able selection
[19:26] <thorwil> and certainly one that can be dragged
[19:26] <tretle> and I did think of direct manipulation, it made me wonder. If you directly manipulate it in such a way instead of using a fill color then why is there a scroll bar? Is that not added clutter?
[19:26] <tretle> ah
[19:26] <tretle> resizable
[19:26] <tretle> did not think of that
[19:27] <thorwil> tretle: scrolled view is larger than desired selection?
[19:27] <mac_v> Equiet_: use png screenshots , the image would be better/clearer
[19:27] <thorwil> worth a thought to not have a scroll/selection split
[19:27] <tretle> and how does pitivi and jokosher handle the issue
[19:28] <tretle> would it not be a wise idea using a similar system so that there is some consistancy
[19:28] <thorwil> yes, for the 5 pitivi and/or jokosher users ;)
[19:29] <tretle> Thats not fair on jokosher
[19:29] <tretle> its fully featured
[19:29] <tretle> and the ui is very well thought out
[19:32]  * thorwil hugs ardour
[19:35] <Equiet_> http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/ history-v5.png
[19:36] <coz_> Equiet_,  I havent been paying close attention and I apoligize for that but.. are th blocks above the numbers  small progress bars?
[19:37] <Equiet_> :/
[19:37] <coz_> Equiet_,  sorry   as I said I havent been paying attention
[19:39] <Equiet_> coz_: No, it's fine, but I am disappointed that it's not obvious (not your fault). It's means the activity/number of events for a certain day.
[19:39] <Equiet_> *It
[19:39] <thorwil> Equiet_: there's always someone to whom it is not obvious ... ;)
[19:39] <coz_> Equiet_,  ok... mm...that wasnt apparent  to me
[19:40] <coz_> well one of the issues with any gui is ,,,does it speak well to the average user?
[19:40] <coz_> it should also have advanced features but any gui  that is not clearly understaood by average users  should maube be thought about/
[19:41] <coz_> ?
[19:41] <thorwil> sadly we have no average user clones at our disposal
[19:41] <Equiet_> I have 1 Mac user online. :P :)
[19:41] <coz_> thorwil,  well you can show an image to anyone on most channels to see if it is clear to them :)
[19:42] <coz_> and I am can generally look with eyes of average user since most of my clients dont know anything about any system or application and they can get confused  or ignor what is not understood
[19:42] <coz_> ignore
[19:43] <coz_> I didnt mean to sound too blunt about this
[19:43] <thorwil> *ocean of doubt*
[19:43] <coz_> thorwil, well that one went over my head :) or between my legs not sure which :)
[19:45] <Equiet_> The Mac user anwers... And doesn't know what the brown rectangles are.
[19:45] <coz_> Equiet_,  this is from someone that looked at it?
[19:46] <Equiet_> coz_: Yes.
[19:46] <coz_> Equiet_,   well that kind of makes sense no?
[19:46] <thorwil> Equiet_: but he knows about the basic concept of the software center?
[19:47] <Equiet_> thorwil: He knows it's about installing apps, that's all.
[19:47] <coz_> there you go
[19:47] <thorwil> Equiet_: anyway, should days without even appear in the list?
[19:47] <thorwil> events, i mean
[19:48] <Equiet_> thorwil: Yes, I think. Without them users wouldn't even understand what the numbers are.
[19:49] <thorwil> Equiet_: with context like Histors ad November?
[19:49] <thorwil> Equiet_: you could make empty days smaller
[19:49] <thorwil> and unselectable
[19:50] <mac_v> mat_t: aw... :(   get well soon :)
[19:52] <Equiet_> thorwil: Empty days smaller - OK. But unselectable, it's quite too complicated, isn't it?
[19:52] <coz_> Equiet_,  is it possible to have the days with no events colapsed  with an arrow to expand it if someone wants to see all of the days?  or maybe each month expandable?
[19:52] <Equiet_> Well, coz_...
[19:53] <Equiet_> This is thing I thought about a lot.
[19:53] <coz_> Equiet_, ` to have it exapandable  you mean?
[19:53] <coz_> Equiet_,  or what you have on that image?
[19:54] <Equiet_> And after user stories I have read, all of them wants to step back only about 1 week ago.
[19:54] <coz_> ah
[19:54] <thorwil> Equiet_: it's questionable if there's a need to select a range of days, even
[19:54] <Equiet_> (Sorry, I write slow, especially in English.)
[19:54] <coz_> Equiet_,  your english is fine :)
[19:57] <Equiet_> thorwil: The range of days could be generated by number of events. There are users, that connect to the Internet once a month so they have just 1 day full of events.
[19:57] <Equiet_> So for them the range could be a month.
[19:57] <tretle> ardour is a different beast to jokosher, jokosher is the sound editor for bands and aurdour is for engineers
[19:57] <tretle> sound engineers
[19:58] <thorwil> tretle: no way, there are enough musicians using ardour
[19:58] <coz_> Equiet_,  I can say I prefer the layout of this very much compared to what is default right now:)
[19:59] <mac_v> coz_: good luck convincing mpt ;p
[19:59] <coz_> I dont do  any music composing on linux at all
[19:59] <coz_> mac_v,  oh?
[19:59] <mac_v> coz_: to change the software center layout ;)
[20:00] <thorwil> mac_v: when i talked with him, it seemed well to be within the realm of the possibl
[20:00] <coz_> mac_v,  oh !! mmm  well that's not surprising :)   although this layout is far less confusing than the default one
[20:01] <thorwil> Equiet_: maybe dates shouldn't be primary, but secondary. so you would have a list of events and at the side associate those to time ranges
[20:01] <mac_v> thorwil: yup , maybe  , i showed him Equiet_'s earlier layouts too... not sure he is very convinced though
[20:02] <mac_v> i'v*
[20:02] <coz_> that's a shame ..this layout is far more visually appropriat for gnome and most other applicatoin layouts
[20:02] <coz_> the default one is a bit "foreign"  overall in camparison
[20:03] <mac_v> actually , if we polish this very well and check there isnt any loop hole  , we've missed there might be a chance
[20:03] <coz_> that would be cool :)
[20:03] <coz_> Equiet_,  is the horizontal layout of history the only one you have attemtped?
[20:04]  * coz_ is fond of vertical ..list driven stuff :)
[20:04] <Equiet_> We can still do it simplier, just to replace the numbers with the name of the month and make selectable only whole moths. Result will be just a long list of events for advanced users and a short one for less advanced.
[20:05] <coz_> Equiet_, that sounds cool
[20:06] <mac_v> Equiet_: it would be bad , to just group everything from a month together
[20:06] <thorwil> i imagine a vertical list of events, with headlines for the month, but days running on one side
[20:07] <coz_> I lke that visual :)
[20:08]  * mac_v is probably blind , doesnt see what coz_ just saw :(
[20:08] <coz_> :)
[20:08]  * thorwil injects a does of alice in wonderland into mac_v's brain
[20:08] <coz_> mac_v,  sound to me like a typical applicatoins menu
[20:09] <coz_> mac_v,  vertical orientationi... list with the days as the active part   applications/accessories/ active stuff   but thats only what I saw :)
[20:10] <coz_> orientation  sorry for that italian "i" at the end
[20:10] <coz_> orientation rather
[20:11] <mac_v> hmm , maybe it would be too much info  , we need to keep it simple
[20:11] <coz_> vertial list with months  dialog opens for days?
[20:12] <mac_v> "applications/accessories/ active stuff" mentioning the categories next to the days
[20:12] <Equiet_> And what about doing it like http://i50.tinypic.com/sd2tti.jpg ? In the upper rectangle (where is All Departments and Sound & Video) would be months and instead of subsections would be days.
[20:12] <coz_> mmm
[20:13] <coz_> that sounds cool too
[20:13] <mac_v> Equiet_: there needs to be a '>' between all departments and S&V  "All dep.. > S&V"
[20:14] <mat_t> thx mac_v :)
[20:14] <mac_v> :)
[20:15] <mac_v> Equiet_: also regarding the history , it needs to be searchable...
[20:15] <Equiet_> mac_v: In the departments I didn't find place where to put ">".
[20:15] <Equiet_> And in history where to put search box.
[20:16] <mac_v> Equiet_: without atleast a '>' it wont be clear it is a submenu
[20:17] <mac_v> Equiet_: search is something that is stressed upon a lot , and needs to be prominent and consistently accessible in all the view , ie it needs to be a given a constant location
[20:17] <mac_v> Equiet_: in any view/tab the user changes to , the user has to be able to search
[20:18] <Equiet_> mac_v: If we will do the history that like subsections, there would be place for the search box.
[20:21] <mac_v> Equiet_: if the search box is to be in the subsections in other views , then you need to figure out how to get it in history too ,  else search needs a new place... [AFAIK , all the recent development is going towards keywords , categories and making apps easier to find]
[20:22] <Equiet_> http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/
[20:22] <Equiet_> :)
[20:23] <mac_v> nice :)
[20:24] <mac_v> Equiet_: why dont you move the search box to the space next to history in the top level?  the inprogress section is very rarely seen and the history , i believe is not displayed by default , so it shouldnt be cramped
[20:25] <mac_v> shouldnt be cramped in the top level*
[20:26] <Equiet_> mac_v: It used to be there, but for a reason I do not remember it has moved to the actual position.
[20:26] <mac_v> Equiet_: if its there , then you shouldnt have problem for history too
[20:27] <mac_v> Equiet_: BTW , for home section where is the search box?
 Equiet: search outside the notebook is not well placed, as it doesn't imply the actual scope of search
[20:27] <Equiet_> mac_v: There is not, too.
[20:27] <Equiet_> Ok, I will move it back.
[20:28] <mac_v> Equiet_: that location for search wont go too far :)
[20:29] <Equiet_> Brb.
[20:48] <Equiet_> http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/