=== yoasif_ is now known as yoasif [00:19] WeatherGod: WRT 483382, the X-Fi driver is known-broken [00:20] WeatherGod: the specs are closed, so there is no easy way to fix the ALSA driver [00:20] dtchen, so it is a regression? [00:20] WeatherGod: also, from tinkering, I know that the controller has a lock-down mode [00:20] WeatherGod: no [00:20] it has never been supported in any Ubuntu release [00:21] the user never actually says if he ever had it working before [00:21] I will double-check [00:21] I can guarantee that it will never have worked in any stock Ubuntu release [00:21] "lock-down" mode? [00:22] Jaunty's linux has a driver, and it was only slightly less broken than Karmic's linux-backports-modules-2.6.31 [00:22] however, Jaunty's lacks the necessary codec init and SSIDs to make it work [00:23] is there anything that the OR can do to help improve the situation? [00:23] WeatherGod: sure, get his/her card to a developer [00:23] and/or punch Creative in the eyes [00:23] uhm, besides that... [00:24] wel, yes. compile alsa-driver stable (need dailies) === dwg_ is now known as dwg [00:24] anyone know where the new PPA wiki page is? [00:24] could also wait for Brad to get the git-compile infrastructure up and running [00:25] dtchen, you mention SSIDs, is that something that he could contribute to help? [00:25] WeatherGod: also, I'm referring to the ctxfi ALSA driver, not the ca0106 ALSA driver [00:25] WeatherGod: his SSID is already in current HEAD [00:26] ok [00:26] beware the X-Fis: many of them are rebadged crappy Audigy LSes [00:26] (meaning they're driven by ca0106) [00:26] ok, so blacklisting won't help? [00:27] blacklisting what, snd-ctxfi? [00:27] well, which is it using? [00:27] ctxfi [00:27] see above regarding "known-broken" [00:28] but, they are driven by ca0106 chip, right? [00:28] perhaps I'm not explaining this well [00:28] no, you are fine... this is getting to the very edge of what I understand [00:28] let's roll back the time curtain to when Creative wasn't playing tricks with marketing [00:28] * WeatherGod gets popcorn [00:29] so, we had the emu10k1 ALSA driver, developed under NDA, which drives the original SB Live! and Audigy 1 series [00:30] so, we had the emu10k1 ALSA driver, developed under NDA, which drives the original SB Live! and Audigy 1 series [00:30] err [00:30] ok [00:30] then someone at Creative saw fit to release a stripped-down OEM version for Dell, with a largely-crippled controller, which a new ALSA driver was written for: emu10k1x [00:30] the x is for extreme, right :P [00:31] no problem so far. Then low-cost, stripped-down versions of the Audigy were released under various marketing names, and they required a new ALSA driver: ca0106 [00:31] then Audigy 2s were released, and the same basic thread follows: the uncrippled ones are driven by emu10k1, the crippled ones are driven by ca0106 [00:32] same for Audigy 4 [00:32] same for X-Fi, until the actual release of the new DSP, which required a new ALSA driver that Creative wrote (closed-source) [00:32] when you say driven, you mean the driver, or the chipset? [00:33] I mean "load this kernel module to make it go bleep bloop" [00:33] ok [00:33] so, as it stands, anything labeled "Live" has actually one of three drivers: emu10k1, emu10k1x, ca0106 [00:33] anything labeled "Audigy" has two drivers: emu10k1, ca0106 [00:34] anything labeled "X-Fi" has two drivers: ca0106, ctxfi [00:34] ok, makes sense so far [00:34] Creative has also seen fit to play games with the SSID labeling, so we have to grab the codec SSID and revision [00:35] with most normal sound cards, we look at the PCI SSID, not the codec SSID, but it doesn't matter because they are identical [00:35] oh, wait... [00:35] so, for example... [00:35] dtchen: are you saying theyre not identical with creative? [00:35] with an increasing number of manufacturers, the differentiation is in the codec SSID, not the PCI SSID [00:35] ergh [00:36] Apple does this for all their iMac, Macbook*, etc. [00:36] Creative does this [00:36] some Audigy cards need emu10k1 and others need ca0106 [00:36] WeatherGod: correct [00:36] never trust the label [00:36] you *must* look at the codec SSI -- not the PCI SSID -- to tell for certain [00:37] that's why we hate Creative and Apple [00:37] does this have anything to do with "Sound Blaster compatible"? [00:37] no [00:37] ok [00:37] (end of lecture) [00:38] dtchen: thanks. good info :) [00:38] so, what is the point of having different SSID for PCI and codec? [00:38] WeatherGod: being jerkwads, i think [00:38] no, it differentiates hw at the codec manufacturer's end [00:38] I can understand the motivation [00:39] it just makes developing quirks even more difficult [00:39] suddenly we have to account for both PCI SSID and codec SSID [00:39] and I've already seen several instances where Creative mixes them, and the wrong driver gets loaded [00:39] correct me if I am wrong (I probably am), but wouldn't it be smarter to be able to query the hardware regardless of its interface type? [00:40] ? [00:40] the hardware *is* queried [00:40] PCI [00:40] are you referring to codec SSID? [00:40] well, I mean, is on-board sound using PCI? [00:41] most drivers are loaded based on modalias from PCI ID, yes [00:41] again, I am at the very edge of what I know (posssibly beyond) [00:41] then the driver looks at the PCI SSID for codec patching [00:41] ok, but what if some future sound card does not use PCI? [00:42] we use whatever info is provided by the subsystem [00:42] i have a possible bug, but i don't know where to file it [00:42] so, if PCI SSID isn't available, fall back to some other descriptor? [00:43] WeatherGod: if PCI SSID isn't available, it isn't a PCI device [00:43] basically, all of the alpha-1 cds have the same name (ubuntu, xubuntu, kubuntu), which makes it a chore to seed all of them on bittorrent (or even to store them).... any ideas where to file this? [00:43] there's only one exception currently: C-Media USB devices [00:43] and that's straightforward, because the modalias will match correctly [00:44] dtchen, forgive me, I live in a little more of a fantasy world, but wouldn't it be ideal to be hardware agnostic? [00:45] in an ideal world, I would be raising ponies and unicorns. [00:45] wasn't HAL supposed to abstract all of these things out? [00:45] I thought you liked kittens? [00:45] of course I admire kittens, but in an ideal world I would be raising ponies and unicorns. And yes, to some degree, HAL made some of this easier. [00:46] HAL cannot account for lazy manufacturers. [00:46] is DeviceKit gonna be any better? [00:46] and udev? [00:46] again, they cannot address lazy manufacturers [00:47] at some level, it has to be dealt with, huh? [00:47] yes. Some would argue it belongs in the driver; some would argue it belongs in a userspace table. [00:48] well, that was very informative [00:48] thank you very much [00:48] in the meantime, is there a webpage to guide the OR if he wishes to help? [00:50] yes, http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/tiwai/sound-2.6.git;a=blob;f=Documentation/sound/alsa/HD-Audio.txt;hb=HEAD [00:51] driver hacking is fun, really! [00:52] uhm, well... I will mention it... see how he takes to it... [00:53] dtchen: oh thats useful to know about [00:53] probably be more upset that "Ubuntu doesn't support Creative" [00:53] * maco does a git pull [00:54] WeatherGod: it's better couched as "Linux presently does not support your X-Fi very well. You may have some luck uninstalling linux-backports-modules-alsa-$(uname -r) and compiling today's stable alsa-driver snapshot." [00:54] snapshots are at google://people tiwai snapshot [00:55] was that a url? [00:55] it can be converted into a correctly-formed URL [00:55] dtchen: how do i get merge conflicts and failures on alsa-kernel git when i havent modified it since the "git clone"? [00:55] ...alsa-kernel? [00:55] meaning from git.alsa-project.org ? [00:56] you should not track alsa-kernel.git. Always use sound-2.6.git [00:56] yes [00:56] oh [00:56] where's that then? [00:57] um, see above git url... [00:57] oh same place? ok then [00:59] dtchen: i still have a Grow A Pony if you'd like to start on that Pony&Unicorn farm... [00:59] I have my own pony kthxbye [01:02] dtchen... I just had a thought... [01:02] Since the OR is using a VM, couldn't he change the configurations to make it appear that there is another kind of sound card [01:02] irrelevant [01:02] hi all, what's top bug manager on ubuntu ? [01:03] the underlying host's audio card (well, the one he wants to use, anyhow) is not working [01:03] top bug manager? [01:03] dtchen, he is run a VM in Windows [01:03] it works in Windows [01:03] s/run/running/ [01:03] maco, bug manager so everybody almost use :D [01:03] huh? [01:04] what do you mean bug manager? [01:04] bug manager popularest [01:04] must be bad translation [01:04] WeatherGod: no, it still doesn't work. [01:04] WeatherGod: i think so [01:04] WeatherGod: the kernel in the guest doesn't have a working driver for his desired audio device [01:04] he is probably looking for something like mantis [01:04] ooo [01:04] m3onh0x84: we use bugs.launchpad.net [01:05] dtchen, but, couldn't the VM present to the guest an emulated device? [01:05] I have seen something similar with video cards [01:05] never tried that trick, though [01:06] WeatherGod: I suppose so, but that would be considerably more development work than just using his ens1371 [01:06] maco, but when networking is disable . So how to save bug to report when restart network ? [01:06] "(Bug reports can be written to a file with apport-cli.)" [01:07] see ubuntu-bug(1) [01:07] dtchen, I will present the OR with this info, and let him decide what to do [02:08] hggdh: are you around? [02:37] nigel_nb: yes [02:38] need a little help with bug 494758 and bug 483335 [02:38] Launchpad bug 494758 in evolution "Evolution incorrectly reports dates in the near future" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/494758 [02:38] Launchpad bug 483335 in rhythmbox "Rhythmbox 0.12.5 cannot start playback of Last.fm after pausing " [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/483335 [02:39] looking [02:40] can someone with regular gnome please test bug 129396? [02:40] Launchpad bug 129396 in metacity "New windows are put in the background" [Wishlist,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/129396 [02:40] I have UNR, and maximus is probably skewing my tests [02:43] nigel_nb: re. the Evolution one: (1) I do not believe Evo is prepared to say you received an email tomorrow (even more because it is a contradiction in terms, until we can time-travel, at least). So, this *is* a bug [02:44] (2) Evo does not allow for editing the headers. In fact, no email client i know allows for it. BUT === dous_ is now known as dous [02:44] the user can simply 'vi ~/.evolution/mail/local/Inbox' -- assuming the email is in the inbox) and edit it as needed [02:45] hggdh: the first one is a bug? can we even consider it? [02:45] yes, the result is obviously wrong [02:46] and systems with screwed-up clocks are everywhere [02:47] I do not remember ever hearing about this upstream, so I guess we will not find an existing bug there -- a new one will be needed [02:50] hggdh: but does it really matter? [02:50] i mean until time travel is invented I dont think I'll really need it [02:50] no we will not. But Tomorrow is wrong [02:51] and this is the point -- wrong output [02:51] ah [02:51] got it, will file one upstream [02:51] and I'll add your suggestion about editing headers [02:52] thank you. As soon as you add in the upstream link I will mark it triaged [02:52] now for the rithmbox one -- what is your question? [02:53] anyway to get the fix to karmic? [02:53] WeatherGod: unfortunately I am on the road, and do not have access to another system to run metacity [02:53] well, does it happen with compiz? [02:53] WeatherGod: checking with compiz [02:54] nigel_nb: yes. It can be proposed for Karmic. It will help a lot if the patch is backported into Karmic's version [02:54] WeatherGod: no problem with karmic, focus goes to newly opened window [02:54] hggdh: can you teach me how? got enough time? [02:55] not now, no. But I can give you an idea of the process [02:55] the thing is a simple patch is not the issue [02:55] in karmic, its 0.12.5, and in lucid its 0.12.6 [02:55] nigel_nb, was that with Karmic, or Jaunty? [02:55] WeatherGod: karmic [02:55] thanks [02:56] WeatherGod: no problem :) [02:56] I will make a note of that in the bug report [02:56] nigel_nb: yes, this is a new, er, release, as far as Karmic is related [02:56] this is the point -- we would need a SRU [02:56] Stable Release Update [02:56] does this bug warranty it? [02:57] I read about SRU yday [02:57] this means the patch fixing the issue has to be backported from 0.12.6 into 0.12.5 (perhaps requiring other patches, perhaps requiring rebase) [02:57] which I hav absolutely no clue of how to do :( [02:58] we would not put 0.12.6 into Karmic, unless there is a very clear, critical, and needed reason for that [02:58] so, then how to do it: [02:58] 1. look at the changelog for 0.12.6 -- see if you can zero in the fix [02:59] 2. go to http://git.gnome.org/rithmbox (supposing rithmbox is gnome), and find the fix [02:59] 3. extract it [03:00] 4. get the source for 0.12.5 (Karmic) hint: use 'pull-lp-source rithmbox karmic' [03:00] try to apply the fix [03:01] lemme try it out, just for educational purpose [03:01] of course, 'try to apply the fix' is the crux [03:01] I dont think this warrants a fix * right * now [03:01] not really critical, just dont pause [03:01] I also do not think, personally, it is a critical issue [03:02] which is to say, a SRU request would probably be refused [03:03] all of this is just for learning, seems like a fairly small app [03:03] just want to learn fixing at least the bitesize ones [03:03] if it's a contained, minimal fix, it will be a good candidate [03:03] might be a simple thing to do, yes, and then good for learning [03:04] you will want to read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide and other related pages [03:05] is there a command to un-hug a bug? [03:05] I accidentially did a hugday close for the wrong bug [03:05] WeatherGod: go to the wiki manually [03:05] nigel_nb: can you verify that enabling crossfading works around this bug? [03:05] dtchen: the rhythmbox one? [03:05] nigel_nb: if it does, then look at upstream commit 2221a3885edb753013fbb6119ae3f092ee5698b5 [03:05] * WeatherGod grumble grumble [03:05] nigel_nb: yes [03:06] * nigel_nb goes and checks [03:06] this is gnome #499048 [03:06] Gnome bug 499048 in playback "Filter insertion and removal on non-xfade backend is not robust." [Normal,Resolved: fixed] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=499048 [03:06] WeatherGod: unhugging was not considered for the hug-tools... you will have to unhug manually [03:07] meaning, I'm referring to that bug; I haven't done the grunt work of chasing whether it's the relevant bug for that symptom [03:09] nigel_nb: even if an SRU is refused, you can always publish the fixed rithmbox in your PPA [03:09] dtchen: I think its a different issue. This bug is only with online radio [03:09] ordinary play works without any issues [03:09] really? I can reproduce that bug with ordinary play. [03:09] huh? [03:10] but, I trust you to do the work. :-) [03:10] hehe, you rhymbox is broken dtchen [03:10] it works great for me, I pause and play it often [03:10] it could well be and thus could well need an SRU [03:10] dtchen: can i borrow your computer to record voiceovers for screencasts nigel_nb made for Ubuntu User Days? [03:10] dtchen: my sound is b0rked, as you know [03:11] no, I don't know how your sound is b0rked [03:11] you just hand-waved; we never sat down to troubleshoot it [03:11] you dont know how, but you know that it is :P [03:11] phonon says it couldnt use pulseaudio, falling back to empty string [03:12] i haz no devices :) [03:12] I'll be home in about 45 mins [03:12] ok [03:12] currently supper is calling [03:12] * nigel_nb cheers [03:12] where you going? merge and sticky are closed... [03:13] I'm just about finished eating (down the street) [03:13] dtchen, if supper can call you, I think you have bigger problems [03:13] like, hunting it [03:13] hahaha, good one WeatherGod :P [03:13] * WeatherGod nods [03:14] I'm currently *eating* and patching sound/pci/hda/patch_analog.c, so I doubt that's the issue. [03:15] dtchen: do me a favor, keep reminding maco to slow down (please ;)) [03:15] I mean when she's recording [03:15] ahahaha [03:15] nigel_nb: he's seen me do public speaking [03:15] maco: I know, so he should have an idea ;) [03:15] then you're lucky you didn't get me; I just skip entire steps hoping the audience read up beforehand [03:16] oh oh [03:16] and you show pictures of crying babies to represent users [03:16] it's appropriate. All we [users] do is whine. [03:17] "rabble, rabble, rabble!" [03:17] sorry, my mind went to South Park for a second [03:18] nigel_nb: just ask her to practise signing as she speaks [03:18] dtchen: how does that help ? ;) [03:18] she can't sign as fast with her hands, so her speech slows [03:19] does she know ASL? [03:19] we both know some signed English and a very tiny bit of ASL [03:20] dtchen: I made sure the screencast is very slow (really slow) [03:20] that should help ;) [03:20] neat [03:21] my vocabulary is very weak, and I haven't used ASL in years, but I keep meaning to pick it back up [03:22] * nigel_nb just learned what ASL is [03:22] nigel_nb, do you think that bug 455241 is the exact opposite of bug 129396 [03:22] Launchpad bug 455241 in compiz "New windows steal focus" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/455241 [03:23] Launchpad bug 129396 in compiz "New windows are put in the background" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/129396 [03:23] it sounds so [03:23] so, which is the bug? [03:23] the bug is not a bug I think [03:23] how zen [03:24] WeatherGod: someone is missing some option, a tick mark, a checkbox [03:24] where to open a new window [03:25] actually, looks like the "Steals focus" one is not quite the opposite [03:25] they modified the same setting that the other report modified, to no avail [03:26] and it is from windows coming up that is instantiated from other sources [03:27] the other bug report dealt with new windows opening from a particular application [03:27] what we need is both people launching from the same source (probably terminal) [03:27] I think so :\ [03:27] well, I think there might be different expectations, maybe? [03:28] now, its actually a mess [03:28] if you start a program, and then while it is loading, you go back to work elsewhere [03:28] what do you want to stay where you are? [03:28] when I'm working on gedit [03:28] and I launch firefox [03:28] its mostly because I *want* to work on firefox [03:28] WeatherGod: my senior design project is a program to teach sign languages that i'd like to eventually get put into the KDE Education Suite [03:28] so how is it a bug? (just shooting in the dark) [03:29] maco, make me a tester [03:29] I would love to help you on that [03:29] nigel_nb, consider a program that takes a bit to load... [03:29] im gonna need people from all over to help make videos of the signs used outside the US, as i just know BSL's vowels and Ausland's "forget" [03:30] and then I switch back to a terminal to type stuff... [03:30] I hate it when that program jumps back in front of my typing [03:30] maco, I 'know' ASL only [03:30] (it isn't a problem if you use the right window manager!) [03:31] and even that is from years ago [03:31] dtchen: theyre talking about a bug in a window manager silly :P [03:31] dtchen: but yes i was just thinking "i <3 my tiling window manager" [03:32] dtchen, ok, but what rational is it that lets a program initiated before a focus change change the focus back? [03:32] being the newest window [03:32] right... but I am talking from the "crying babies" perspective [03:33] to them, it is "annoying" [03:33] if you want that last program to pop up a modal, then that's one use case [03:33] ? [03:33] e.g., I set an alarm to fire off when some task completes, then switch focus to another window [03:34] I'm hungry, off for breakfast guys, catch y'all in 30 mins [03:34] ttyl [03:34] note that I'm not condoning such a use case as being common or even valid [03:34] (valid in my book, that is) [03:34] dtchen, so, do we want the modal to steal focus? [03:34] modals always steal focus [03:34] just about to say that [03:35] however, I don't know if the intent is to have the window act as a modal does [03:35] I would say that that behavior in the context of non-modal is a bug [03:35] right, it isn't (that's why they are different) [03:35] it annoyed me enough that I switched window managers completely [03:35] which are you using? [03:35] awesome or xmonad [03:36] I heard of awesome... I am sure there is some sort of snide joke I could use [03:37] I think it was created as a snide aside [03:37] haha [03:38] anyhow, yeah, that would be a bug in my book [03:38] I would like to actually show people how easy and attractive Ubuntu can be [03:38] ok [03:38] I will update that description a bit and set it to confirm [03:40] actually, should probably move it off of compiz [03:40] move it over to gnome-desktop [03:49] hggdh: do you know anything about fast tracking the apport fix? [03:53] dtchen, in the context of what we were talking about before, what do you think about bug 476827 [03:53] Launchpad bug 476827 in filezilla "Filezilla "file has changed" dialogue steals focus (dup-of: 455241)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/476827 [03:53] Launchpad bug 455241 in gnome-desktop "New windows steal focus" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/455241 [03:53] I don't think it is a dupe [03:58] I think they're both compiz, but you'd need to ask the OR to verify with metacity [03:58] but, are they the same problem? [03:59] or is FileZilla using a modal, maybe? [04:29] can I get a second opinion on bug 371452? [04:29] Launchpad bug 371452 in compiz "Zoom locks on password prompt" [Low,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/371452 [04:30] at the very least, I think it should not be labeled as "Invalid", but rather "Wont FIx" [04:30] although, I would like to think there was still a way to deal with this properly [04:44] micahg: the easiest way is to add in comments in the bug stating it was tested [04:44] hggdh: I didn't test it [04:44] can you give me again the bug@? [04:44] bug# [04:44] I did [04:44] bug 476513 [04:44] Launchpad bug 476513 in apport "/etc/default/apport comment outdated" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/476513 [04:48] micahg: done. If we can get somebody else to check on it, better [04:48] WeatherGod: do you want to test an apport fix? [04:48] sure, what do I need to do? [04:49] * WeatherGod looks at bug report [04:49] check out the bug above, there should be a test case, you need to enable -proposed during the test case to install an updated version of apport [04:49] WeatherGod: just follow the steps in the test case in the description and report if it works or not [04:50] micahg: I am going to bed, I *must* wake up early tomorrow [04:50] I am on Jaunty [04:50] WeatherGod: oh, ok, nevermind [04:50] good night [04:50] hggdh: ok, thanks [04:50] sorry [04:50] g'night to all === dous_ is now known as dous [07:59] I cant install 9.10. I am using the alternate cd and it may install but then it runs and i get a black screen. any thoughts? [08:00] echotone: I got a idea, try the alternate CD [08:00] :( [08:00] why alter nate cd [08:00] whts tht [08:01] coz i have live cd [08:01] cheeko: the alternate CD is the same thing as the live CD, but it doesn't load to a GUI, it uses a older console installer [08:02] Kage_Jittai: just like knoppix 2 [08:02] option [09:37] Bug 217485 - patch has been attached upstream but its been sat there since jan 2009, If i attach patch to Ubuntu would somone patch it for us then we'll push that upstream? [09:37] Launchpad bug 217485 in pgp4pine "stack smashing detected" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/217485 [09:52] I would like to help with bug 470695 in case anyone is interested [09:52] this is most likely either just the KGpg icon hidden in systray (because KGpg is inactive) [09:52] or this one https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=198483 [09:52] Launchpad bug 470695 in kdeutils "Kgpg doesn't run by default" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/470695 [09:52] the hidden thing is explained in comment #2 there [09:52] KDE bug 198483 in general "No system tray icon for KGpg after "Close" button is clicked" [Normal,Assigned] [10:02] Dakon: I dont think any of those two bugs are related [10:03] the user says there is a KGpg process running so he must see it [10:03] He says its running then it closes [10:03] After the window popped and closed [10:03] but he still sees the process so it must be somewhere [10:04] which usually means it hides itself in systray (which is the default) [10:04] in KDE 4.3 systray hides inactive processes which many users are not aware of [10:05]