[00:19] <dtchen> WeatherGod: WRT 483382, the X-Fi driver is known-broken
[00:20] <dtchen> WeatherGod: the specs are closed, so there is no easy way to fix the ALSA driver
[00:20] <WeatherGod> dtchen, so it is a regression?
[00:20] <dtchen> WeatherGod: also, from tinkering, I know that the controller has a lock-down mode
[00:20] <dtchen> WeatherGod: no
[00:20] <dtchen> it has never been supported in any Ubuntu release
[00:21] <WeatherGod> the user never actually says if he ever had it working before
[00:21] <WeatherGod> I will double-check
[00:21] <dtchen> I can guarantee that it will never have worked in any stock Ubuntu release
[00:21] <WeatherGod> "lock-down" mode?
[00:22] <dtchen> Jaunty's linux has a driver, and it was only slightly less broken than Karmic's linux-backports-modules-2.6.31
[00:22] <dtchen> however, Jaunty's lacks the necessary codec init and SSIDs to make it work
[00:23] <WeatherGod> is there anything that the OR can do to help improve the situation?
[00:23] <dtchen> WeatherGod: sure, get his/her card to a developer
[00:23] <dtchen> and/or punch Creative in the eyes
[00:23] <WeatherGod> uhm, besides that...
[00:24] <dtchen> wel, yes. compile alsa-driver stable (need dailies)
[00:24] <micahg> anyone know where the new PPA wiki page is?
[00:24] <dtchen> could also wait for Brad to get the git-compile infrastructure up and running
[00:25] <WeatherGod> dtchen, you mention SSIDs, is that something that he could contribute to help?
[00:25] <dtchen> WeatherGod: also, I'm referring to the ctxfi ALSA driver, not the ca0106 ALSA driver
[00:25] <dtchen> WeatherGod: his SSID is already in current HEAD
[00:26] <WeatherGod> ok
[00:26] <dtchen> beware the X-Fis: many of them are rebadged crappy Audigy LSes
[00:26] <dtchen> (meaning they're driven by ca0106)
[00:26] <WeatherGod> ok, so blacklisting won't help?
[00:27] <dtchen> blacklisting what, snd-ctxfi?
[00:27] <WeatherGod> well, which is it using?
[00:27] <dtchen> ctxfi
[00:27] <dtchen> see above regarding "known-broken"
[00:28] <WeatherGod> but, they are driven by ca0106 chip, right?
[00:28] <dtchen> perhaps I'm not explaining this well
[00:28] <WeatherGod> no, you are fine... this is getting to the very edge of what I understand
[00:28] <dtchen> let's roll back the time curtain to when Creative wasn't playing tricks with marketing
[00:28]  * WeatherGod gets popcorn
[00:29] <dtchen> so, we had the emu10k1 ALSA driver, developed under NDA, which drives the original SB Live! and Audigy 1 series
[00:30] <dtchen> so, we had the emu10k1 ALSA driver, developed under NDA, which drives the original SB Live! and Audigy 1 series
[00:30] <dtchen> err
[00:30] <WeatherGod> ok
[00:30] <dtchen> then someone at Creative saw fit to release a stripped-down OEM version for Dell, with a largely-crippled controller, which a new ALSA driver was written for: emu10k1x
[00:30] <WeatherGod> the x is for extreme, right :P
[00:31] <dtchen> no problem so far. Then low-cost, stripped-down versions of the Audigy were released under various marketing names, and they required a new ALSA driver: ca0106
[00:31] <dtchen> then Audigy 2s were released, and the same basic thread follows: the uncrippled ones are driven by emu10k1, the crippled ones are driven by ca0106
[00:32] <dtchen> same for Audigy 4
[00:32] <dtchen> same for X-Fi, until the actual release of the new DSP, which required a new ALSA driver that Creative wrote (closed-source)
[00:32] <WeatherGod> when you say driven, you mean the driver, or the chipset?
[00:33] <dtchen> I mean "load this kernel module to make it go bleep bloop"
[00:33] <WeatherGod> ok
[00:33] <dtchen> so, as it stands, anything labeled "Live" has actually one of three drivers: emu10k1, emu10k1x, ca0106
[00:33] <dtchen> anything labeled "Audigy" has two drivers: emu10k1, ca0106
[00:34] <dtchen> anything labeled "X-Fi" has two drivers: ca0106, ctxfi
[00:34] <WeatherGod> ok, makes sense so far
[00:34] <dtchen> Creative has also seen fit to play games with the SSID labeling, so we have to grab the codec SSID and revision
[00:35] <dtchen> with most normal sound cards, we look at the PCI SSID, not the codec SSID, but it doesn't matter because they are identical
[00:35] <WeatherGod> oh, wait...
[00:35] <WeatherGod> so, for example...
[00:35] <maco> dtchen: are you saying theyre not identical with creative?
[00:35] <dtchen> with an increasing number of manufacturers, the differentiation is in the codec SSID, not the PCI SSID
[00:35] <maco> ergh
[00:36] <dtchen> Apple does this for all their iMac, Macbook*, etc.
[00:36] <dtchen> Creative does this
[00:36] <WeatherGod> some Audigy cards need emu10k1 and others need ca0106
[00:36] <dtchen> WeatherGod: correct
[00:36] <dtchen> never trust the label
[00:36] <dtchen> you *must* look at the codec SSI -- not the PCI SSID -- to tell for certain
[00:37] <dtchen> that's why we hate Creative and Apple
[00:37] <WeatherGod> does this have anything to do with "Sound Blaster compatible"?
[00:37] <dtchen> no
[00:37] <WeatherGod> ok
[00:37] <dtchen> (end of lecture)
[00:38] <maco> dtchen: thanks. good info :)
[00:38] <WeatherGod> so, what is the point of having different SSID for PCI and codec?
[00:38] <maco> WeatherGod: being jerkwads, i think
[00:38] <dtchen> no, it differentiates hw at the codec manufacturer's end
[00:38] <dtchen> I can understand the motivation
[00:39] <dtchen> it just makes developing quirks even more difficult
[00:39] <dtchen> suddenly we have to account for both PCI SSID and codec SSID
[00:39] <dtchen> and I've already seen several instances where Creative mixes them, and the wrong driver gets loaded
[00:39] <WeatherGod> correct me if I am wrong (I probably am), but wouldn't it be smarter to be able to query the hardware regardless of its interface type?
[00:40] <dtchen> ?
[00:40] <dtchen> the hardware *is* queried
[00:40] <WeatherGod> PCI
[00:40] <dtchen> are you referring to codec SSID?
[00:40] <WeatherGod> well, I mean, is on-board sound using PCI?
[00:41] <dtchen> most drivers are loaded based on modalias from PCI ID, yes
[00:41] <WeatherGod> again, I am at the very edge of what I know (posssibly beyond)
[00:41] <dtchen> then the driver looks at the PCI SSID for codec patching
[00:41] <WeatherGod> ok, but what if some future sound card does not use PCI?
[00:42] <dtchen> we use whatever info is provided by the subsystem
[00:42] <yoasif> i have a possible bug, but i don't know where to file it
[00:42] <WeatherGod> so, if PCI SSID isn't available, fall back to some other descriptor?
[00:43] <dtchen> WeatherGod: if PCI SSID isn't available, it isn't a PCI device
[00:43] <yoasif> basically, all of the alpha-1 cds have the same name (ubuntu, xubuntu, kubuntu), which makes it a chore to seed all of them on bittorrent (or even to store them).... any ideas where to file this?
[00:43] <dtchen> there's only one exception currently: C-Media USB devices
[00:43] <dtchen> and that's straightforward, because the modalias will match correctly
[00:44] <WeatherGod> dtchen, forgive me, I live in a little more of a fantasy world, but wouldn't it be ideal to be hardware agnostic?
[00:45] <dtchen> in an ideal world, I would be raising ponies and unicorns.
[00:45] <WeatherGod> wasn't HAL supposed to abstract all of these things out?
[00:45] <WeatherGod> I thought you liked kittens?
[00:45] <dtchen> of course I admire kittens, but in an ideal world I would be raising ponies and unicorns. And yes, to some degree, HAL made some of this easier.
[00:46] <dtchen> HAL cannot account for lazy manufacturers.
[00:46] <WeatherGod> is DeviceKit gonna be any better?
[00:46] <WeatherGod> and udev?
[00:46] <dtchen> again, they cannot address lazy manufacturers
[00:47] <WeatherGod> at some level, it has to be dealt with, huh?
[00:47] <dtchen> yes. Some would argue it belongs in the driver; some would argue it belongs in a userspace table.
[00:48] <WeatherGod> well, that was very informative
[00:48] <WeatherGod> thank you very much
[00:48] <WeatherGod> in the meantime, is there a webpage to guide the OR if he wishes to help?
[00:50] <dtchen> yes, http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/tiwai/sound-2.6.git;a=blob;f=Documentation/sound/alsa/HD-Audio.txt;hb=HEAD
[00:51] <dtchen> driver hacking is fun, really!
[00:52] <WeatherGod> uhm, well... I will mention it... see how he takes to it...
[00:53] <maco> dtchen: oh thats useful to know about
[00:53] <WeatherGod> probably be more upset that "Ubuntu doesn't support Creative"
[00:53]  * maco does a git pull
[00:54] <dtchen> WeatherGod: it's better couched as "Linux presently does not support your X-Fi very well.  You may have some luck uninstalling linux-backports-modules-alsa-$(uname -r) and compiling today's stable alsa-driver snapshot."
[00:54] <dtchen> snapshots are at google://people tiwai snapshot
[00:55] <WeatherGod> was that a url?
[00:55] <dtchen> it can be converted into a correctly-formed URL
[00:55] <maco> dtchen: how do i get merge conflicts and failures on alsa-kernel git when i havent modified it since the "git clone"?
[00:55] <dtchen> ...alsa-kernel?
[00:55] <dtchen> meaning from git.alsa-project.org ?
[00:56] <dtchen> you should not track alsa-kernel.git. Always use sound-2.6.git
[00:56] <maco> yes
[00:56] <maco> oh
[00:56] <maco> where's that then?
[00:57] <dtchen> um, see above git url...
[00:57] <maco> oh same place? ok then
[00:59] <maco> dtchen: i still have a Grow A Pony if you'd like to start on that Pony&Unicorn farm...
[00:59] <dtchen> I have my own pony kthxbye
[01:02] <WeatherGod> dtchen... I just had a thought...
[01:02] <WeatherGod> Since the OR is using a VM, couldn't he change the configurations to make it appear that there is another kind of sound card
[01:02] <dtchen> irrelevant
[01:02] <m3onh0x84> hi all, what's top bug manager on ubuntu ?
[01:03] <dtchen> the underlying host's audio card (well, the one he wants to use, anyhow) is not working
[01:03] <maco> top bug manager?
[01:03] <WeatherGod> dtchen, he is run a VM in Windows
[01:03] <WeatherGod> it works in Windows
[01:03] <WeatherGod> s/run/running/
[01:03] <m3onh0x84> maco, bug manager so everybody almost use :D
[01:03] <maco> huh?
[01:04] <maco> what do you mean bug manager?
[01:04] <m3onh0x84> bug manager popularest
[01:04] <WeatherGod> must be bad translation
[01:04] <dtchen> WeatherGod: no, it still doesn't work.
[01:04] <maco> WeatherGod: i think so
[01:04] <dtchen> WeatherGod: the kernel in the guest doesn't have a working driver for his desired audio device
[01:04] <WeatherGod> he is probably looking for something like mantis
[01:04] <maco> ooo
[01:04] <maco> m3onh0x84: we use bugs.launchpad.net
[01:05] <WeatherGod> dtchen, but, couldn't the VM present to the guest an emulated device?
[01:05] <WeatherGod> I have seen something similar with video cards
[01:05] <WeatherGod> never tried that trick, though
[01:06] <dtchen> WeatherGod: I suppose so, but that would be considerably more development work than just using his ens1371
[01:06] <m3onh0x84> maco, but when networking is disable . So how to save bug to report when restart network ?
[01:06] <dtchen> "(Bug reports can be written to a file with apport-cli.)"
[01:07] <dtchen> see ubuntu-bug(1)
[01:07] <WeatherGod> dtchen, I will present the OR with this info, and let him decide what to do
[02:08] <nigel_nb> hggdh: are you around?
[02:37] <hggdh> nigel_nb: yes
[02:38] <nigel_nb> need a little help with bug 494758 and bug 483335
[02:38] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 494758 in evolution "Evolution incorrectly reports dates in the near future" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/494758
[02:38] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 483335 in rhythmbox "Rhythmbox 0.12.5 cannot start playback of Last.fm after pausing " [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/483335
[02:39] <hggdh> looking
[02:40] <WeatherGod> can someone with regular gnome please test bug 129396?
[02:40] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 129396 in metacity "New windows are put in the background" [Wishlist,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/129396
[02:40] <WeatherGod> I have UNR, and maximus is probably skewing my tests
[02:43] <hggdh> nigel_nb: re. the Evolution one: (1) I do not believe Evo is prepared to say you received an email tomorrow (even more because it is a contradiction in terms, until we can time-travel, at least). So, this *is* a bug
[02:44] <hggdh> (2) Evo does not allow for editing the headers. In fact, no email client i know allows for it. BUT
[02:44] <hggdh> the user can simply 'vi ~/.evolution/mail/local/Inbox' -- assuming the email is in the inbox) and edit it as needed
[02:45] <nigel_nb> hggdh: the first one is a bug? can we even consider it?
[02:45] <hggdh> yes, the result is obviously wrong
[02:46] <hggdh> and systems with screwed-up clocks are everywhere
[02:47] <hggdh> I do not remember ever hearing about this upstream, so I guess we will not find an existing bug there -- a new one will be needed
[02:50] <nigel_nb> hggdh: but does it really matter?
[02:50] <nigel_nb> i mean until time travel is invented I dont think I'll really need it
[02:50] <hggdh> no we will not. But Tomorrow is wrong
[02:51] <hggdh> and this is the point -- wrong output
[02:51] <nigel_nb> ah
[02:51] <nigel_nb> got it, will file one upstream
[02:51] <nigel_nb> and I'll add your suggestion about editing headers
[02:52] <hggdh> thank you. As soon as you add in the upstream link I will mark it triaged
[02:52] <hggdh> now for the rithmbox one -- what is your question?
[02:53] <nigel_nb> anyway to get the fix to karmic?
[02:53] <hggdh> WeatherGod: unfortunately I am on the road, and do not have access to another system to run metacity
[02:53] <WeatherGod> well, does it happen with compiz?
[02:53] <nigel_nb> WeatherGod: checking with compiz
[02:54] <hggdh> nigel_nb: yes. It can be proposed for Karmic. It will help a lot if the patch is backported into Karmic's version
[02:54] <nigel_nb> WeatherGod: no problem with karmic, focus goes to newly opened window
[02:54] <nigel_nb> hggdh: can you teach me how? got enough time?
[02:55] <hggdh> not now, no. But I can give you an idea of the process
[02:55] <nigel_nb> the thing is a simple patch is not the issue
[02:55] <nigel_nb> in karmic, its 0.12.5, and in lucid its 0.12.6
[02:55] <WeatherGod> nigel_nb, was that with Karmic, or Jaunty?
[02:55] <nigel_nb> WeatherGod: karmic
[02:55] <WeatherGod> thanks
[02:56] <nigel_nb> WeatherGod: no problem :)
[02:56] <WeatherGod> I  will make a note of that in the bug report
[02:56] <hggdh> nigel_nb: yes, this is a new, er, release, as far as Karmic is related
[02:56] <hggdh> this is the point -- we would need a SRU
[02:56] <hggdh> Stable Release Update
[02:56] <nigel_nb> does this bug warranty it?
[02:57] <nigel_nb> I read about SRU yday
[02:57] <hggdh> this means the patch fixing the issue has to be backported from 0.12.6 into 0.12.5 (perhaps requiring other patches, perhaps requiring rebase)
[02:57] <nigel_nb> which I hav absolutely no clue of how to do :(
[02:58] <hggdh> we would not put 0.12.6 into Karmic, unless there is a very clear, critical, and needed reason for that
[02:58] <hggdh> so, then how to do it:
[02:58] <hggdh> 1. look at the changelog for 0.12.6 -- see if you can zero in the fix
[02:59] <hggdh> 2. go to http://git.gnome.org/rithmbox (supposing rithmbox is gnome), and find the fix
[02:59] <hggdh> 3. extract it
[03:00] <hggdh> 4. get the source for 0.12.5 (Karmic) hint: use 'pull-lp-source rithmbox karmic'
[03:00] <hggdh> try to apply the fix
[03:01] <nigel_nb> lemme try it out, just for educational purpose
[03:01] <hggdh> of course, 'try to apply the fix' is the crux
[03:01] <nigel_nb> I dont think this warrants a fix * right * now
[03:01] <nigel_nb> not really critical, just dont pause
[03:01] <hggdh> I also do not think, personally, it is a critical issue
[03:02] <hggdh> which is to say, a SRU request would probably be refused
[03:03] <nigel_nb> all of this is just for learning, seems like a fairly small app
[03:03] <nigel_nb> just want to learn fixing at least the bitesize ones
[03:03] <dtchen> if it's a contained, minimal fix, it will be a good candidate
[03:03] <hggdh> might be a simple thing to do, yes, and then good for learning
[03:04] <hggdh> you will want to read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide and other related pages
[03:05] <WeatherGod> is there a command to un-hug a bug?
[03:05] <WeatherGod> I accidentially did a hugday close for the wrong bug
[03:05] <nigel_nb> WeatherGod: go to the wiki manually
[03:05] <dtchen> nigel_nb: can you verify that enabling crossfading works around this bug?
[03:05] <nigel_nb> dtchen: the rhythmbox one?
[03:05] <dtchen> nigel_nb: if it does, then look at upstream commit 2221a3885edb753013fbb6119ae3f092ee5698b5
[03:05]  * WeatherGod grumble grumble
[03:05] <dtchen> nigel_nb: yes
[03:06]  * nigel_nb goes and checks
[03:06] <dtchen> this is gnome #499048
[03:06] <ubot4> Gnome bug 499048 in playback "Filter insertion and removal on non-xfade backend is not robust." [Normal,Resolved: fixed] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=499048
[03:06] <hggdh> WeatherGod: unhugging was not considered for the hug-tools... you will have to unhug manually
[03:07] <dtchen> meaning, I'm referring to that bug; I haven't done the grunt work of chasing whether it's the relevant bug for that symptom
[03:09] <hggdh> nigel_nb: even if an SRU is refused, you can always publish the fixed rithmbox in your PPA
[03:09] <nigel_nb> dtchen: I think its a different issue.  This bug is only with online radio
[03:09] <nigel_nb> ordinary play works without any issues
[03:09] <dtchen> really? I can reproduce that bug with ordinary play.
[03:09] <nigel_nb> huh?
[03:10] <dtchen> but, I trust you to do the work. :-)
[03:10] <nigel_nb> hehe, you rhymbox is broken dtchen
[03:10] <nigel_nb> it works great for me, I pause and play it often
[03:10] <dtchen> it could well be and thus could well need an SRU
[03:10] <maco> dtchen: can i borrow your computer to record voiceovers for screencasts nigel_nb made for Ubuntu User Days?
[03:10] <maco> dtchen: my sound is b0rked, as you know
[03:11] <dtchen> no, I don't know how your sound is b0rked
[03:11] <dtchen> you just hand-waved; we never sat down to troubleshoot it
[03:11] <maco> you dont know how, but you know that it is :P
[03:11] <maco> phonon says it couldnt use pulseaudio, falling back to empty string
[03:12] <maco> i haz no devices :)
[03:12] <dtchen> I'll be home in about 45 mins
[03:12] <maco> ok
[03:12] <dtchen> currently supper is calling
[03:12]  * nigel_nb cheers
[03:12] <maco> where you going? merge and sticky are closed...
[03:13] <dtchen> I'm just about finished eating (down the street)
[03:13] <WeatherGod> dtchen, if  supper can call you, I think you have bigger problems
[03:13] <WeatherGod> like, hunting it
[03:13] <nigel_nb> hahaha, good one WeatherGod :P
[03:13]  * WeatherGod nods
[03:14] <dtchen> I'm currently *eating* and patching sound/pci/hda/patch_analog.c, so I doubt that's the issue.
[03:15] <nigel_nb> dtchen: do me a favor, keep reminding maco to slow down (please ;))
[03:15] <nigel_nb> I mean when she's recording
[03:15] <maco> ahahaha
[03:15] <maco> nigel_nb: he's seen me do public speaking
[03:15] <nigel_nb> maco: I know, so he should have an idea ;)
[03:15] <dtchen> then you're lucky you didn't get me; I just skip entire steps hoping the audience read up beforehand
[03:16] <nigel_nb> oh oh
[03:16] <maco> and you show pictures of crying babies to represent users
[03:16] <dtchen> it's appropriate. All we [users] do is whine.
[03:17] <WeatherGod> "rabble, rabble, rabble!"
[03:17] <WeatherGod> sorry, my mind went to South Park for a second
[03:18] <dtchen> nigel_nb: just ask her to practise signing as she speaks
[03:18] <nigel_nb> dtchen: how does that help ? ;)
[03:18] <dtchen> she can't sign as fast with her hands, so her speech slows
[03:19] <WeatherGod> does she know ASL?
[03:19] <dtchen> we both know some signed English and a very tiny bit of ASL
[03:20] <nigel_nb> dtchen: I made sure the screencast is very slow (really slow)
[03:20] <nigel_nb> that should help ;)
[03:20] <WeatherGod> neat
[03:21] <WeatherGod> my vocabulary is very weak, and I haven't used ASL in years, but I keep meaning to pick it back up
[03:22]  * nigel_nb just learned what ASL is
[03:22] <WeatherGod> nigel_nb, do you think that bug 455241 is the exact opposite of bug 129396
[03:22] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 455241 in compiz "New windows steal focus" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/455241
[03:23] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 129396 in compiz "New windows are put in the background" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/129396
[03:23] <nigel_nb> it sounds so
[03:23] <WeatherGod> so, which is the bug?
[03:23] <nigel_nb> the bug is not a bug I think
[03:23] <WeatherGod> how zen
[03:24] <nigel_nb> WeatherGod: someone is missing some option, a tick mark, a checkbox
[03:24] <nigel_nb> where to open a new window
[03:25] <WeatherGod> actually, looks like the "Steals focus" one is not quite the opposite
[03:25] <WeatherGod> they modified the same setting that the other report modified, to no avail
[03:26] <WeatherGod> and it is from windows coming up that is instantiated from other sources
[03:27] <WeatherGod> the other bug report dealt with new windows opening from a particular application
[03:27] <nigel_nb> what we need is both people launching from the same source (probably terminal)
[03:27] <nigel_nb> I think so :\
[03:27] <WeatherGod> well, I think there might be different expectations, maybe?
[03:28] <nigel_nb> now, its actually a mess
[03:28] <WeatherGod> if you start a program, and then while it is loading, you go back  to work elsewhere
[03:28] <WeatherGod> what do  you want to stay where you are?
[03:28] <nigel_nb> when I'm working on gedit
[03:28] <nigel_nb> and I launch firefox
[03:28] <nigel_nb> its mostly because I *want* to work on firefox
[03:28] <maco> WeatherGod: my senior design project is a program to teach sign languages that i'd like to eventually get put into the KDE Education Suite
[03:28] <nigel_nb> so how is it a bug? (just shooting in the dark)
[03:29] <WeatherGod> maco, make me a tester
[03:29] <WeatherGod> I would love to help you on that
[03:29] <WeatherGod> nigel_nb, consider a program that takes a bit to load...
[03:29] <maco> im gonna need people from all over to help make videos of the signs used outside the US, as i just know BSL's vowels and Ausland's "forget"
[03:30] <WeatherGod> and then I switch back to a terminal to type stuff...
[03:30] <WeatherGod> I hate it when that program jumps back in front of my typing
[03:30] <WeatherGod> maco, I 'know' ASL only
[03:30] <dtchen> (it isn't a problem if you use the right window manager!)
[03:31] <WeatherGod> and even that is from years ago
[03:31] <maco> dtchen: theyre talking about a bug in a window manager silly :P
[03:31] <maco> dtchen: but yes i was just thinking "i <3 my tiling window manager"
[03:32] <WeatherGod> dtchen, ok, but what rational is it that lets a program initiated before a focus change change the focus back?
[03:32] <maco> being the newest window
[03:32] <WeatherGod> right... but I am talking from the "crying babies" perspective
[03:33] <WeatherGod> to them, it is "annoying"
[03:33] <dtchen> if you want that last program to pop up a modal, then that's one use case
[03:33] <WeatherGod> ?
[03:33] <dtchen> e.g., I set an alarm to fire off when some task completes, then switch focus to another window
[03:34] <nigel_nb> I'm hungry, off for breakfast guys, catch y'all in 30 mins
[03:34] <WeatherGod> ttyl
[03:34] <dtchen> note that I'm not condoning such a use case as being common or even valid
[03:34] <dtchen> (valid in my book, that is)
[03:34] <WeatherGod> dtchen, so, do we want the modal to steal focus?
[03:34] <dtchen> modals always steal focus
[03:34] <WeatherGod> just about to say that
[03:35] <dtchen> however, I don't know if the intent is to have the window act as a modal does
[03:35] <dtchen> I would say that that behavior in the context of non-modal is a bug
[03:35] <WeatherGod> right, it isn't (that's why they are different)
[03:35] <dtchen> it annoyed me enough that I switched window managers completely
[03:35] <WeatherGod> which are you using?
[03:35] <dtchen> awesome or xmonad
[03:36] <WeatherGod> I heard of awesome... I am sure there is some sort of snide joke I could use
[03:37] <dtchen> I think it was created as a snide aside
[03:37] <WeatherGod> haha
[03:38] <dtchen> anyhow, yeah, that would be a bug in my book
[03:38] <WeatherGod> I would like to actually show people how easy and attractive Ubuntu can be
[03:38] <WeatherGod> ok
[03:38] <WeatherGod> I will update that description a bit and set it to confirm
[03:40] <WeatherGod> actually, should probably move it off of compiz
[03:40] <WeatherGod> move it over to gnome-desktop
[03:49] <micahg> hggdh: do you know anything about fast tracking the apport fix?
[03:53] <WeatherGod> dtchen, in the context of what we were talking about before, what do you think about bug 476827
[03:53] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 476827 in filezilla "Filezilla "file has changed" dialogue steals focus (dup-of: 455241)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/476827
[03:53] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 455241 in gnome-desktop "New windows steal focus" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/455241
[03:53] <WeatherGod> I don't think it is a dupe
[03:58] <dtchen> I think they're both compiz, but you'd need to ask the OR to verify with metacity
[03:58] <WeatherGod> but, are they the same problem?
[03:59] <WeatherGod> or is FileZilla using a modal, maybe?
[04:29] <WeatherGod> can I get a second opinion on bug 371452?
[04:29] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 371452 in compiz "Zoom locks on password prompt" [Low,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/371452
[04:30] <WeatherGod> at the very least, I think it should not be labeled as "Invalid", but rather "Wont FIx"
[04:30] <WeatherGod> although, I would like to think there was still a way to deal with this properly
[04:44] <hggdh> micahg: the easiest way is to add in comments in the bug stating it was tested
[04:44] <micahg> hggdh: I didn't test it
[04:44] <hggdh> can you give me again the bug@?
[04:44] <hggdh> bug#
[04:44] <hggdh> I did
[04:44] <micahg> bug 476513
[04:44] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 476513 in apport "/etc/default/apport comment outdated" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/476513
[04:48] <hggdh> micahg: done. If we can get somebody else to check on it, better
[04:48] <micahg> WeatherGod: do you want to test an apport fix?
[04:48] <WeatherGod> sure, what do I need to do?
[04:49]  * WeatherGod looks at bug report
[04:49] <micahg> check out the bug above, there should be a test case, you need to enable -proposed during the test case to install an updated version of apport
[04:49] <micahg> WeatherGod: just follow the steps in the test case in the description and report if it works or not
[04:50] <hggdh> micahg: I am going to bed, I *must* wake up early tomorrow
[04:50] <WeatherGod> I am on Jaunty
[04:50] <micahg> WeatherGod: oh, ok, nevermind
[04:50] <WeatherGod> good night
[04:50] <micahg> hggdh: ok, thanks
[04:50] <WeatherGod> sorry
[04:50] <hggdh> g'night to all
[07:59] <echotone> I cant install 9.10. I am using the alternate cd and it may install but then it runs and i get a black screen. any thoughts?
[08:00] <Kage_Jittai> echotone: I got a idea, try the alternate CD
[08:00] <Kage_Jittai> :(
[08:00] <cheeko> why alter nate cd
[08:00] <cheeko> whts tht
[08:01] <cheeko> coz i have live cd
[08:01] <Kage_Jittai> cheeko: the alternate CD is the same thing as the live CD, but it doesn't load to a GUI, it uses a older console installer
[08:02] <cheeko> Kage_Jittai: just like knoppix 2
[08:02] <cheeko> option
[09:37] <nperry> Bug 217485 - patch has been attached upstream but its been sat there since jan 2009, If i attach patch to Ubuntu would somone patch it for us then we'll push that upstream?
[09:37] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 217485 in pgp4pine "stack smashing detected" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/217485
 I would like to help with bug 470695 in case anyone is interested
 this is most likely either just the KGpg icon hidden in systray (because KGpg is inactive)
 or this one https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=198483
[09:52] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 470695 in kdeutils "Kgpg doesn't run by default" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/470695
 the hidden thing is explained in comment #2 there
[09:52] <ubot4> KDE bug 198483 in general "No system tray icon for KGpg after "Close" button is clicked" [Normal,Assigned]
[10:02] <nperry> Dakon: I dont think any of those two bugs are related
[10:03] <Dakon> the user says there is a KGpg process running so he must see it
[10:03] <nperry> He says its running then it closes
[10:03] <nperry> After the window popped and closed
[10:03] <Dakon> but he still sees the process so it must be somewhere
[10:04] <Dakon> which usually means it hides itself in systray (which is the default)
[10:04] <Dakon> in KDE 4.3 systray hides inactive processes which many users are not aware of
[10:05] <nperry> To be honest, i use Gnome
[10:05] <nperry> Im just trying to find an online man page to see what -k actually does!
[10:05] <Dakon> kgpg --help -> it directly opens the keysmanager
[10:06] <Dakon> if you only start it by "kgpg" and systray is enabled it will just go into systray and not show up any window
[10:07] <nperry> Right..
[10:07] <nperry> But this still is the thing, If I run "ps -e" while the tab is there I do see a kgpg process running until the tab disappears.
[10:07] <Dakon> so the process isn't there anymore if the tab is closed?
[10:07] <nperry> So the process stops when the 'tab' goes
[10:07] <nperry> Is how i read that
[10:07] <Dakon> ok, that would indeed be something different
[10:08] <Dakon> can you reproduce this behaviour?
[10:08] <Dakon> I've never tried KGpg on Gnome ;)
[10:08] <nperry> Let me see if it'll allow me to install without all of kde :P
[10:09] <Dakon> it should only pull in kdelibs and kdepimlibs
[10:09] <Dakon> if not your packager did something wrong ;)
[10:09] <nperry> Indeed it did :)
[10:10] <nperry> Setup wizard popped fine for me.
[10:11] <Dakon> Once you are done with that I think you need to quit KGpg and try again
[10:11] <Dakon> setup wizard will not show up again then
[10:16] <nperry> From the looks of it i reckon its not a bug, because kpgp runs at start up in the background and its hidden
[10:16] <nperry> so -k brings up the keymanager
[10:16] <nperry> without a flag it fails becuase there is an instance already running
[10:17] <nperry> the other process will be at the top of ps -e becuase its at startup
[10:18] <nperry> So i think the the kmenu should be -k by default to bring up the instance at startup
[10:19] <nperry> rather then try and open a new one
[10:23] <nperry> Dakon: what do you reckon?
[10:27] <Dakon> would make sense
[10:28] <Dakon> if I start it with the menu I want to do something with it, i.e. have a window
[10:28] <Dakon> brb
[14:06] <David-T> is there any way to draw attention to bug #493772 (which causes boot failures in lucid with / on mdadm), as it has an extremely easy fix, but seems to be lost in the noise...
[14:06] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 493772 in mdadm "mdadm + initramfs-tools fail to boot" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/493772
[14:27] <greg-g> David-T: if you are confident that it is reproducible and your patch is the right way (or, close to the right way) to fix it, I would let Keybuk know in #ubuntu-devel
[14:32] <David-T> greg-g: ok, thanks.
[14:55] <bddebian> Boo
[17:04] <mr_steve> What's the word on notifications in Lucid? notify-osd is intentionally in some kind of debug/dev mode, right?
[17:05] <mr_steve> For example, bug #495533
[17:05] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 495533 in notify-osd "notify-osd strange lines shown in bubble" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/495533
[17:15] <thekorn> mr_steve, yes, that's correct, this is not a bug, it is intentional.
[17:15] <thekorn> se the changelog entry on https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/notify-osd/0.9.24-0ubuntu2
[17:15] <thekorn> s/se/see
[17:16] <mr_steve> thekorn: thanks, I thought that was the case, just wanted to confirm. Lots of bugs being filed about it.
[17:19] <thekorn> mr_steve, really? seems like notify-osd only has two bug 495138 and yours
[17:19] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 495138 in notify-osd "Notify-osd Not displaying correctly" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/495138
[17:19] <thekorn> that's at least what a quick search gave me
[17:19] <mr_steve> perhaps "lots" is an overstatement, but I think I've seen at least three. One was filed against the wrong package I think
[17:20] <mr_steve> I've been a bit out of touch with triage lately, starting school soon, keeps me distracted.
[17:21] <thekorn> mr_steve, are you marking them as invalid?
[17:21] <thekorn> or should I take this action
[17:22] <mr_steve> Go ahead; the only one I actually touched I just commented that I was fairly certain it was not a bug. Now that I've confirmed it I can handle them better
[17:22] <thekorn> mr_steve, okidoki, thanks for pointing this out
[17:36] <nperry> i believe bug 493384 - could somone check this bug please - My first bug im triaging :)
[17:36] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 493384 in nvidia-graphics-drivers-173 "xorg crashes at start with nvidia drivers. Karmic Koala. Nvidia Drivers." [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/493384
[17:37] <nperry> I cant see aything that would be causing this in setup
[17:38] <micahg> nperry: you should have added usplash the package not usplash the upstream
[17:38] <nperry> Oh have i :s my bad!
[17:38] <micahg> nperry: you could have just changed the package from nvidia to usplash
[17:38] <WeatherGod> nperry, that is a common mistake, I noticed that I was doing that a few weeks ago
[17:38] <micahg> yep, it's a little confusing in LP
[17:39] <nperry> Fixed :)
[17:39] <WeatherGod> yeah, and to add another Ubuntu package, you need to use "Also effects distribution"
[17:39] <WeatherGod> realized that last week
[17:39] <nperry> I was adding project
[17:40] <WeatherGod> yeah... I did that for the longest time
[17:40] <micahg> nperry: yeah, this doesn't look like usplash since the user gets all the way to X load
[17:40] <yofel> this sounds like bug 491483
[17:40] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 491483 in gdm "Since failsafe-x was enabled in karmic it starts if gdm is disabled and kdm is used. (low graphics mode error)" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/491483
[17:40] <nperry> But when usplash is disabled it didnt happen
[17:40] <yofel> hm
[17:41] <technoviking> What should I file a bug againist if I have menu issue in Ubuntu
[17:41] <WeatherGod> what sort of menu issue?
[17:41]  * micahg needs to remember to read the whole bug :)
[17:42]  * micahg is going to defer due to a lack of knowledge about usplash
[17:42] <technoviking> WeatherGod: double enties under System Preference and Administration
[17:42] <nperry> micahg: I had a look through some triaged x bugs but none of them match 100%
[17:42] <technoviking> WeatherGod: in Lucid
[17:43] <WeatherGod> using gnome?
[17:43] <technoviking> yes
[17:43] <WeatherGod> well, that would likely be a configuration issue
[17:43] <WeatherGod> so, Ubunut-meta, maybe?
[17:43] <WeatherGod> Ubuntu-meta
[17:44] <WeatherGod> not exactly sure...
[17:44] <nperry> technoviking: Ive got a feeling there is a bug already for it
[17:45] <technoviking> nperry: does not matter, a reboot fixed it.
[17:45] <micahg> nperry: it looks like you have all the info based on the debuggin page
[17:45] <micahg> nperry: what do you think the next step is
[17:48] <nperry> I was going to suggest lucid to him, but i dont think thats the best next step
[17:48] <micahg> nperry: no, it's probably not at this point
[17:51] <nperry> What would you suggest?
[17:52] <micahg> nperry: to have it marked triaged :)
[17:52] <micahg> nperry: once all the information is collected, we hand the bug off to the developers
[17:52] <nperry> wow, take my virinity :P
[17:52] <nperry> *virginity
[17:53] <micahg> nperry: my question for you is what importance should I set?
[17:53] <nperry> low
[17:53] <nperry> As noone else is having the problem
[17:54] <micahg> nperry: well, importance is estimated impact, not just what we've seen, but I agree Low since there is an easy workaround
[17:54] <mewseslol> is it just to post a question in this channel or do you need some sort of permission?
[17:55] <micahg> mewseslol: if it's a question about FILING a bug, then you can post or if it's a question about a bug you've already filed, support questions should go to #ubuntu
[17:55] <mewseslol> micahg: thx
[17:56] <nperry> micahg: Sounds good to me
[17:58] <micahg> nperry: done...nice job!
[17:59] <WeatherGod> micahg, does anybody still use the bugHelper script?
[18:00] <nperry> micahg: Thanks, time to move onto my next :)
[18:00]  * micahg doesn't know what a bughelper script is WeatherGod
[18:00] <WeatherGod> in the Bug Squad knowledgebase: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugHelper
[18:01] <yofel> WeatherGod: not that I know of, maybe ask bdmurray
[18:01] <bdmurray> WeatherGod: for what?  pedro uses it for hug days
[18:02] <WeatherGod> ok, I was wondering if it was still a useful tool
[18:02] <bdmurray> WeatherGod: for a very limited subset of things
[18:02] <thekorn> WeatherGod, I'm not sure how good it is working after all the launchpad changes
[18:02] <WeatherGod> because it doesn't work on Fedora systems for a very stupid reason
[18:02] <thekorn> WeatherGod, I started a new version of bughelper some time ago, using the launchpad API
[18:03] <thekorn> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~bughelper-dev/bughelper/bughelper-ng
[18:03] <micahg> fascinating
[18:03] <bdmurray> thekorn: how is that doing?
[18:03] <thekorn> but i did not manage to finish work on it yet
[18:04] <WeatherGod> thekorn, does it depend on being in a Ubuntu environment?
[18:04] <thekorn> bdmurray, the bughelper tool is mostly ported, some more complicated options like searching by last user who made a comment is still not implmented
[18:04] <nperry> Am i right in saying rhythmbox is no longer being maintained?
[18:04] <thekorn> WeatherGod, I don't think so, you just need launchpadlib and a few standard python packages
[18:05] <WeatherGod> ok, because the original bughelper used apt_pkg to gather the version number
[18:06] <thekorn> I'm pretty sure the new version is not using apt_pkg anymore
[18:06] <WeatherGod> well, I will try it out
[18:07] <thekorn> WeatherGod, super, I'm looking forward to get your bugreports about this tool ;)
[18:08] <thekorn> ...and maybe someone with some python skills would like to work on it ;)
[18:08] <micahg> nperry: who said that?
[18:08] <thekorn> or someone who would like to learn python, of course
[18:09] <WeatherGod> well, I have my trusty rat book right next to me
[18:09] <WeatherGod> I might be able to lend a hand
[18:10] <pedro_> WeatherGod, bug 494748 , guess that's for you
[18:10] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 494748 in ubuntu "Posted for Weather God! Trying to Analyze Sound Problem! " [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/494748
[18:10] <WeatherGod> heh
[18:10] <nperry> micahg: I though i read it somwhere on a mailing list
[18:14] <micahg> nperry: no, it looks like it's maintained still
[18:15] <nperry> I think WeatherGod has already been sub'ed to it :)
[18:15] <WeatherGod> yeah... looks like he tried to submit some more info by email, and it bounced or something
[18:16] <WeatherGod> and so he posted a new bug report... dunno
[18:16] <micahg> WeatherGod: you need to have a PGP key registered with LP to post by email
[18:17] <WeatherGod> ah, that would explain a lot
[18:18] <micahg> WeatherGod: https://help.launchpad.net/Bugs/EmailInterface
[18:19] <maco> no
[18:19] <maco> you can comment without pgp
[18:19] <maco> you just cant change bug status/importance/package/subscribers/etc without signing the email
[18:19] <maco> hehehe that IS a funny bug report though
[18:19] <maco> at least from the subject line
[18:19] <WeatherGod> yeah, gonna mark it as a dupe of the original
[18:20] <micahg> WeatherGod: if the new one has more info, mark the old one a dupe of the new one
[18:20] <WeatherGod> no, it just has some output from a command we asked him to run... besides we ended up figuring out his problem anyway
[18:21] <WeatherGod> that was the whole lecture yesterday by dtchen
[18:22] <malev> hi everybody! Yesterday I've sent a message to a user that reported a bug and today he answered me. apparently confirming the bug. should I mark it as confirmed? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/compiz/+bug/451974
[18:22] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 451974 in fglrx-installer "Black video minimizing Totem window" [Undecided,New]
[18:25] <WeatherGod> well, maybe Triaged?
[18:26] <WeatherGod> don't know why fglrx-installer is involved, though
[18:26] <WeatherGod> I would, actually, ask him to try another video player
[18:26] <WeatherGod> to see if the problem is limited to totem or all video players
[18:27] <malev> WeatherGod. Oks! I'll do that. One more thing I can't triage, I don' have that option.
[18:27] <WeatherGod> right, you are just like me... a newbie
[18:27] <WeatherGod> we have to earn that option
[18:28] <malev> WeatherGod, haha It looks like!
[18:28] <WeatherGod> the more experienced people in this group can check over your triaging work, to make sure there is enough info
[18:28] <WeatherGod> and then they can mark it as such
[18:28] <malev> But it seems that you've been here for a long time, isn't it?
[18:28] <WeatherGod> only a month
[18:29] <WeatherGod> maybe month and a half
[18:29] <maco> which bug?
[18:29] <maco> im in bug control
[18:29] <malev> bug control? what's is that?
[18:29] <WeatherGod> bug 451974
[18:30] <WeatherGod> is ubot4 broken again?
[18:31] <ubot4> WeatherGod: Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/451974)
[18:31] <WeatherGod> malev, bug control is the group that have extra permissions
[18:31] <WeatherGod> they are the mentors
[18:31] <maco> not necessarily
[18:32] <WeatherGod> true, but all mentors are bug control
[18:32] <maco> bug control are people who've passed a simple test showing they know how to triage
[18:32] <maco> some of us chooes also to be mentors
[18:32] <maco> *choose
[18:32] <WeatherGod> there is a test?
[18:32] <malev> test???? mmm like in college?
[18:32] <malev> :D
[18:32] <maco> when you apply to bug control you have to answer questions
[18:32] <maco> i think 5 of them
[18:32] <WeatherGod> ah, ok
[18:33] <WeatherGod> malev, how much coffee have you had today?
[18:33] <WeatherGod> no, better question...
[18:33] <WeatherGod> how much sugar did you put into it?
[18:33] <malev> I've just wake up... yesterday I have a geat nigigt! :D
[18:33] <maco> and i think the 5th is "show 5 bugs youve triaged and tell what importance youd set them to and why"
[18:33] <maco> then a few current bug control mentors review your answers, and if they're satisfactory bdmurray makes you a member
[18:34] <WeatherGod> maco, good to know... in case I ever want to take on that level of responsibility
[18:35] <WeatherGod> next semester is gonna be insane for me... so I don't know how much time I can devote
[18:35] <malev> WeatherGod, what're you studing?
[18:36] <WeatherGod> I am a PhD student in Meteorology
[18:36] <WeatherGod> I also run the servers for my research group
[18:37] <malev> WeatherGod, cool!! I'm applying for a PhD in MEMS
[18:37] <WeatherGod> MEMS?
[18:37] <malev> Micro-Electro-Mechanical Systems
[18:38] <WeatherGod> so, nanomachines?
[18:38] <malev> something like that
[18:38] <WeatherGod> neat
[18:39] <malev> well folks! I'm gonna get something to eat. I'll see you in a while.
[18:40] <hggdh> being in bug-control just gives up authority to set a bug triaged and to set Importance
[18:40] <hggdh> there is not much more than that
[18:40] <hggdh> s/gives up/gives you/
[18:42] <WeatherGod> thekorn, re: bughelper-ng, why are you using bootstrapping?
[18:42] <WeatherGod> I thought distutils.core does all of that stuff now
[18:43] <WeatherGod> hggdh, gotcha
[18:44] <hggdh> another thing that is expected from -controllers is to direct and help begining triagers
[18:44] <thekorn> WeatherGod, hmm, that's a long story, but basically I like things like having an isolated test environment, being able to run a interactive session with the current state of the branch
[18:44] <thekorn> WeatherGod, so I don't need to do some weird symlinking or mangling with PYTHONPATH
[18:45] <thekorn> and most importantly: the time when I started bughelper-ng virtualenv was broken on karmic
[18:45] <thekorn> so I had no other choice ;)
[18:48] <WeatherGod> I think setuptools now does that
[18:48] <WeatherGod> http://ianbicking.org/docs/setuptools-presentation/
[18:49] <WeatherGod> not sure, I haven't tried it, though
[18:51] <nperry> micahg: Do you mind looking into this one please, bug 495322 - I believe everything is there which is needed
[18:51] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 495322 in linux "Kernel Oops - unable to handle kernel paging request at ff0e0300 ; EIP is at __ticket_spin_lock+0x8/0x20" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/495322
[18:54] <WeatherGod> thekorn, I don't think anything succeeded in my build test
[18:54] <micahg> nperry: seems good, what importance?
[18:55] <thekorn> WeatherGod, do you have some scripts in bin/
[18:55] <WeatherGod> thekorn: bughelper, buildout, python, test
[18:56] <thekorn> WeatherGod, looks good, try running bin/bughelper --help
[18:56] <thekorn> which should give you a local instance of the bughelper tool
[18:56] <nperry> micahg: low because i reckon its hardware related but medium because its random restarts and not a easy word around
[18:57] <thekorn> bin/test runs the test suite
[18:57] <WeatherGod> haha.... it does depend on dpkg-query to get the version number
[18:57] <thekorn> WeatherGod, you don't have dpkg-query?
[18:57] <WeatherGod> I am on Fedora
[18:58] <WeatherGod> I use Fedora for work, and Ubuntu for home
[18:58] <thekorn> WeatherGod, but, looking at the code, it should not break if dpkg-query is not there
[18:58] <thekorn> can you post me the traceback?
[18:59] <WeatherGod> here in the forum or what?
[18:59] <thekorn> WeatherGod, paste.ubuntu.com
[18:59] <micahg> nperry: since it locks up the system, I'm going to mark it high...see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Importance
[19:00] <thekorn> WeatherGod, oh right, I can reproduce your error
[19:00] <WeatherGod> didn't know ubuntu had a pastebin
[19:00] <thekorn> WeatherGod, let me fix it
[19:00] <WeatherGod> ok
[19:01] <micahg> nperry: done
[19:01] <nperry> micahg: Thankyou :)
[19:01] <micahg> nperry: thank you :)
[19:03] <thekorn> WeatherGod, I just pushed a fix, 'bzr pull' and it should work for you
[19:03] <WeatherGod> then I just do another bootstrap or what?
[19:07] <WeatherGod> thekorn: http://paste.ubuntu.com/339417/
[19:07] <WeatherGod> oh, wait
[19:07] <WeatherGod> ok, I thought I had launchpadlib
[19:08] <WeatherGod> lemme double-check
[19:08] <thekorn> right
[19:08] <thekorn> I don't think you have it installed
[19:08] <WeatherGod> maybe I did it on my other machine...
[19:08] <WeatherGod> but, then again, I do have hugday tools working
[19:09] <WeatherGod> doesn't it use that?
[19:10] <WeatherGod> ok, I probably didn't install it
[19:10] <thekorn> WeatherGod, no, hugday-tool is not using launchpadlib
[19:30] <WeatherGod> thekorn, I got everything downloaded, and the tests were successful
[19:33] <thekorn> super
[19:34] <WeatherGod> thanks for the help, I'll let you know how it goes
[19:35] <thekorn> thank you
[20:06] <malev> hola muchachos! hi everybody! I have a bug that I think is ready for triage. But I'm not able to do that. Can anyone make it for me.
[20:06] <malev>  the bug is; https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/fglrx-installer/+bug/451974
[20:06] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 451974 in fglrx-installer "Black video minimizing Totem window" [Undecided,New]
[20:07]  * micahg is looking malev
[20:09] <micahg> malev: idk...someone else should look at this
[20:09] <micahg> hggdh_: you available to look at a bug?
[20:10] <malev> micahg, what is idk?
[20:10] <micahg> malev: i don't know
[20:10] <malev> micahg, haha oks! thanks
[20:10]  * micahg doesn't know enough about compiz
[20:13] <nperry> malev:
[20:13] <nperry> More debugging needs to be done i reckon
[20:13] <hggdh_> micahg: yes
[20:14] <malev> nperry, so, what do you suggest?
[20:14] <nperry> malev: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingCompiz
[20:14] <nperry> Give the Advanced instructions
[20:15] <malev> oks, but ... you think the user would be able to do all that? for exampla, that about running with a debbuger.. :s
[20:17] <nperry> It is advanced but i would see it needed by devs ( hggdh feel free to step in if you think im wrong, I'm a newb to :) )
[20:18]  * hggdh is still trying to open the bug
[20:19] <malev> [joker mode=on] hggdh looks like you're using a dial-up connection [joker mode=off]
[20:21] <hggdh> I wish... it would be faster :-( This is the customer-provided wifi access for external contractors... full of controls and bandwidth limitations
[20:24] <nperry> I dont miss dialup
[20:26] <nperry> Right im off for this evening, have a good one guys :)
[20:26] <nperry> thanks for your help today malev!
[20:26] <malev> good by nperry
[20:27] <WeatherGod> huh, that was weird
[20:28] <WeatherGod> for a while, it looked like everyone in this group exited except for a couple of other users
[20:28] <WeatherGod> I had to completely disconnect and then reconnect to get back
[20:28] <WeatherGod> go figure
[20:29] <hggdh> on this totem bug -- I run the free ATI drivers (radeon) and Compiz, so the OR should be able to also do it
[20:30] <hggdh> but the OR also ran some tests that seem to tie this to XVideo, so... a good option is to ask on the X channel
[20:30] <malev> hggdh, ... I don't understand...
[20:31] <malev> what is or?
[20:31] <maco> original reporter
[20:32] <hggdh> malev: the OR stated that s/he cannot test on the free X drivers because s/he is running compiz. This is not enterely correct. You *can* run Compiz, but it will be more restricted in terms of effects
[20:32] <hggdh> hey maco, long time!
[20:33] <malev> hggdh, oks!
[20:33] <maco> hggdh: i havent gone anywhere...
[20:33] <maco> hggdh: though ive probably been a bit more on the sponsorship end of bugs
[20:33] <malev> so, do you reccomend me to ask about this in the xchannel of ubuntu?
[20:33] <maco> thatd be #ubuntu-x
[20:34] <hggdh> no, it's I that have been here like a firefly...
[20:34] <WeatherGod> hggdh, do you happen to remember those update-manager bugs I was dealing with that were related to server overloads?
[20:34] <hggdh> malev: yes, this is the channel. Please ask.. and wait with patience
[20:34] <malev> hggdh, oks! I'm taking care of it. don't worry
[20:34] <WeatherGod> malev, LOTs of patience
[20:34] <hggdh> WeatherGod: yes, I think so. The 404s, right?
[20:35] <WeatherGod> yeah, do you want to see what I came up with?
[20:35] <hggdh> yes
[20:35] <WeatherGod> ok, in searching, I came across three categories of issues
[20:36] <WeatherGod> hang on, gotta load them up
[20:37] <WeatherGod> ok, the first category (although one of the dupes might need to be moved) is where users described what seemed to be basic server overload
[20:37] <WeatherGod> all of these happened around the same time
[20:38] <WeatherGod> I duped them all to bug 464087
[20:38] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 464087 in update-manager "Upgrade to Kubuntu 9.10 failed because site became unavailable" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/464087
[20:39] <WeatherGod> the second class of bugs happened at a much wider span of time over the past few months
[20:39] <WeatherGod> and these are 404s
[20:39] <WeatherGod> I duped them up to bug 489403
[20:39] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 489403 in update-manager "Update Manager experiences problem upgrading to '9.10'" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/489403
[20:40] <WeatherGod> the last class is interesting, and happened around the time of Karmic release
[20:41] <WeatherGod> I found 4 (maybe 5 cases) of "Hash Sum mismatch" and it seems that the local mirror did not get their files synced before being made available as a mirror
[20:41] <WeatherGod> I synced these up to bug 463435
[20:41] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 463435 in update-manager "I was notified that upgrade was available, but it was not ready" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/463435
[20:42] <hggdh> OK. and?
[20:42] <malev> hi folks! I'm comming back with answers from the ubuntu-x channel.
[20:42] <hggdh> malev: shoot ;-)
[20:42] <malev> they say: "fglrx is buggy with respect to having compositing and xvideo at the same time"
[20:42] <hggdh> heh
[20:42] <malev> fglrx is known to have problems with compositing and xvideo
[20:42] <malev> the problem is fglrx
[20:43] <hggdh> yes. Bad
[20:43] <malev> sad
[20:43] <hggdh> we will depend on ATI/AMD to fix it
[20:43] <hggdh> WeatherGod: and?
[20:44] <WeatherGod> well, that is the result of me scouring the update-manager bugs for issues regarding the last release
[20:44] <micahg> is ATI's bugtracker private?
[20:44] <malev> so, I think I'm gonna reply this to the user. But, what about the bug? should I change the status to invalid?
[20:44] <hggdh> malev: ask the OR to try Compiz with a free X driver -- hopefully there is one for his/her board -- and report back. Also tell the OR what you found (and consequences)
[20:44] <WeatherGod> hggdh, I think we can use this as evidence of needing better mirror management for Lucid release
[20:45] <micahg> WeatherGod: they took the PPA builders and used them as mirrors for release
[20:45] <malev> hggdh, oks! I'll do that.
[20:45] <WeatherGod> maybe even better behavior by update-manager to find an alternate mirror in the middle of the download process
[20:45] <hggdh> WeatherGod: I agree. Now, could you retitle the bugs so that indicate the type of issue they are dealing with?
[20:45] <WeatherGod> ok
[20:46]  * hggdh is listening to Beethoven's 9th, it is getting difficult to type while swinging with the orchestra
[20:47] <WeatherGod> which one was the 9th symphony?
[20:47] <hggdh> the choral -- Oh Freunde, etc, etc
[20:48] <WeatherGod> ok, I can't get numbers straight in my head
[20:48] <WeatherGod> not familiar with that one
[20:48] <hggdh> the only symphony that has a chorus
[20:48] <WeatherGod> that's what I was wondering, cause I didn't know he did any
[20:48] <hggdh> and a fabulous bass (in von Karajan's second recording)
[20:49] <WeatherGod> nice
[20:49] <hggdh> although for me it is all sound, I cannot distinguish voice from instruments most of the time...
[20:50] <hggdh> I *know* it is a voice, I just cannot understand it
[20:50] <WeatherGod> really good a capella groups can get that good
[20:51] <WeatherGod> I heard a rendition of some of Pink Floyd's songs from Dark Side of the Moon that was hard to believe to be all voice
[20:54] <WeatherGod> there it is again!
[20:58] <hggdh> micahg: just for grins, fresh out of SANS: http://isc.sans.org/diary.html?storyid=7732&rss
[21:04] <micahg> hggdh: means that mozilla messaging will probably release an update to TB2
[21:04] <hggdh> yeah. Anyway, I wonder about enigmail for tb3
[21:04] <micahg> hggdh: maybe this weekend :)
[21:05] <hggdh> but I am not affected  byt this issue on TB2)
[21:05] <micahg> first I have to get TB3 into lucid
[21:05] <micahg> then fix the dev files
[21:05] <micahg> then push enigmail
[21:05] <hggdh> agreed
[21:06] <WeatherGod> hggdh, I think I cleaned up those three
[21:06] <WeatherGod> bug 464087
[21:06] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 464087 in update-manager "Upgrade to Karmic failed because site became unavailable during distribution release." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/464087
[21:06] <WeatherGod> bug 489403
[21:06] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 489403 in update-manager "Update Manager errors out on 404 Not Found rather than trying another mirror" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/489403
[21:06] <WeatherGod> bug 463435
[21:06] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 463435 in update-manager "I was notified that upgrade was available, but the local mirror was not ready" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/463435
[21:07] <hggdh> WeatherGod: this last one is the hash checksum error, correct?
[21:07] <WeatherGod> right
[21:07] <hggdh> would it be a good idea to title it so, then?
[21:07] <WeatherGod> good point
[21:08] <hggdh> thank you. Sometimes I *do* have good point, although in a sparse way
[21:09] <WeatherGod> "Hash Sum mismatch error during Karmic release"
[21:09] <WeatherGod> ?
[21:09] <hggdh> I think just "update errors out with hash sum mismatch", or similar
[21:09] <hggdh> this is not specific to Karmic
[21:09] <hggdh> been around for quite some time
[21:10] <WeatherGod> ok
[21:10] <hggdh> anyway, I think this is, at the bottom, a race condition, and we will never be completely free of it
[21:11] <WeatherGod> but, update manager could handle it better by going elsewhere
[21:11] <WeatherGod> also, couldn't better design of mirror distribution improve this
[21:12] <WeatherGod> maybe incremental changes to the Packages list
[21:14] <hggdh> the problem with mirror distribution is that is it a volunteer service
[21:14] <WeatherGod> whoot!  Nouveau is gonna be officially part of linux 2.6.33!
[21:14] <WeatherGod> well, what about the P2P methods I heard about?
[21:15] <hggdh> and each can have a different update schedule
[21:15] <hggdh> but, perhaps, something like torrenting might help
[21:15] <WeatherGod> that's true, but a mirror shouldn't advertise pacakges that it doesn't have yet
[21:16] <WeatherGod> that's why I am thinking that an incremental update to the Packages list as the mirror syncs would be best
[21:16] <hggdh> this is true (and is the 404s). They should first update the packages, then the lists
[21:16] <WeatherGod> or, to do snapshotting
[21:16] <WeatherGod> actually, a lot of those 404s are still 404s

[21:16] <WeatherGod> so, maybe their package lists were bad or errored?
[21:16] <hggdh> perhaps
[21:17] <WeatherGod> but, snapshotting should definitely be a possible approach
[21:17] <hggdh> but it is clear we could profit from a different approach
[21:17] <hggdh> yes
[21:17] <WeatherGod> serve out the snapshot while updating the package repo
[21:17] <WeatherGod> although, that might have problems when finished
[21:17] <hggdh> and try different mirrors if it fails on one
[21:18] <WeatherGod> definitely try different mirrors
[21:18] <hggdh> still, problems are possible
[21:18] <WeatherGod> right, as with all race conditions
[21:18] <hggdh> we will be exchanging a known issue with a brand new, unknown one :-)
[21:18] <WeatherGod> but we can certainly try to make Lucid release as smooth as possible
[21:18] <WeatherGod> especially since it will be a LTS
[21:19] <WeatherGod> heh
[21:19] <WeatherGod> well, just allow for better fail-over, and you shouldn't be any worse than before
[21:19] <hggdh> well, sort of. Every provider in the wild internet every so often hits the timeout issue
[21:20] <WeatherGod> yeah, but then the Update Manager could make for a nice, friendly message for handling that
[21:20] <WeatherGod> "Don't Panic"
[21:20] <hggdh> indeed, and this is something under *our* control,
[21:20] <WeatherGod> yes
[21:21] <hggdh> well, "don't panic, and grab a towel"
[21:21] <WeatherGod> that might be too long...
[21:21] <WeatherGod> :P
[21:21] <hggdh> but the towel is the most important piece ;-)
[21:21] <hggdh> brb
[22:03] <WeatherGod> anyone got ideas for bug 495603
[22:03] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 495603 in upstart "/var/log/messages is recieving messages 100+ messages a second (since Dec 7, 2009 (last update)) "Dec 11 13:38:47 taylor-laptop kernel: [103577.453350] CPU0: Temperature/speed normal" " [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/495603
[22:15] <awardle> Does anyone know what a orange alert is? It's written in bug 495677
[22:15] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 495677 in linux "I was adding a user when I noticed the orange alert. System did NOT crash." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/495677
[22:18] <Flannel> awardle: Does the box that pops up include an orange warning icon or something?
[22:19] <awardle> I don't know, it's in a bug report that I was trying to triage
[22:20] <Flannel> awardle: right, the description says "I saw the instructions below this box" which told the reporter to do the ubuntu-bug -p thing, perhaps "this box" is the orange alert he's referring to?
[22:21] <awardle> The orange alert is the logo for apport
[22:30] <joaopinto> how do I link a debian bug report from an LP bug ?
[22:31] <bdmurray> "also affects distribution"
[22:31] <awardle> on the bug page click "Also affects distribution"
[22:33] <joaopinto> awalton_, bdmurray tks
[22:38] <WeatherGod> hehe: I have no clue how this guy got his problem
[22:38] <WeatherGod> bug 495553
[22:38] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 495553 in gdm "Screen origin shifted to center, screen wraps" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/495553
[22:44] <joaopinto> is there a special procedure to file a bug against a translation ?
[22:47] <awardle> Is the translation for a product that uses lp for translations?
[22:50] <joaopinto> it's for software-center
[22:50] <joaopinto> I guess it does
[22:51] <awardle> joaopinto: do you know what the translation should be
[22:52] <joaopinto> awalton_, yes
[22:52] <joaopinto> Free Software is translate fo free as in gratis, not as in libre
[22:52] <joaopinto> trasnlated
[22:54] <WeatherGod> wow, that's a glaring mistake
[22:55] <WeatherGod> gotta run... seeya all later
[22:59] <awardle> Sorry, what language do you want to change?
[23:01] <yoasif> hey guys, i have a weird gnome-panel bug that only happens in my user profile -- if i click on the menu, it segfaults, also if i do alt-f2, it segfaults. in a new user profile, i see none of these issues -- what is the easiest way to remove the settings for the panel but keep the layout?
[23:01] <joaopinto> awalton_, portuguese
[23:03] <awardle> joaopinto: Try going to https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+source/software-center/+pots/software-center/pt/+translate
[23:04] <awardle> joaopinto: Also my name is awardle not awalton_
[23:16] <dogatemycomputer> Greetings.   I am working on bug #492810 .   Pedro Villavicencio asked the reporter to follow instructions found here here: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProgramCrash
[23:16] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 492810 in nautilus "Nautilus uses 100% cpu after downloading torrent" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/492810
[23:17] <dogatemycomputer> The instructions tell the reporter to import debug symbol archive signing keys using this command:  "gpg --keyserver keyserver.ubuntu.com --recv-key 428D7C01 5E0577F2"
[23:17] <hggdh> dogatemycomputer: what can we do for you?
[23:18] <dogatemycomputer> Attempts to import those signing keys fail.
[23:18] <dogatemycomputer> the error is 'gpgkeys: HTTP fetch error 6: Couldn't resolve host 'keyserver.ubuntu.com'.
[23:18] <hggdh> dogatemycomputer: can you pastebin the output of the import key run?
[23:18] <hggdh> !pastebin
[23:18] <ubot4> For posting multi-line texts into the channel, please use http://paste.ubuntu.com | To post !screenshots use http://tinyurl.com/imagebin | !pastebinit to paste directly from  command line | Make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic
[23:19] <dogatemycomputer> ahhh..  sorry hggdh.
[23:19] <hggdh> although I suspect you are running it under your own userId; it should be run as root. If this is the case, just preppend 'sudo ' to the command
[23:19] <dogatemycomputer> http://paste.ubuntu.com/339566/
[23:20] <dogatemycomputer> Okay..  here is the sudo..
[23:20] <hggdh> nope it is a name server resolution error
[23:20] <dogatemycomputer> http://paste.ubuntu.com/339567/
[23:20] <dogatemycomputer> hggdh:  I figured as much.
[23:21] <dogatemycomputer> hggdh:  Are you saying this is my client failing to properly resolve the name or the server has been moved and the incorrect IP is being provided to the client?
[23:21] <hggdh> dogatemycomputer: now you have Yet Another Issue (TM) ;-)
[23:21] <hggdh> dogatemycomputer: I just tried to get to k.u.c, and it failed the same
[23:21] <dogatemycomputer> hggdh: I just find it frustrating when people point users to documentation that clearly fails.
[23:21] <dogatemycomputer> hggdh:  So..  file a bug report?  :-)
[23:22] <awardle> when I tried I could get to k.u.c fine
[23:22] <dogatemycomputer> Please define k.u.c.?  What does that mean?
[23:22] <dogatemycomputer> (sorry for my ignorance)
[23:23] <hggdh> dogatemycomputer: please keep in mind that these documents can always be updated.
[23:23] <hggdh> keyserver.ubuntu.com (easier to write k.u.c)
[23:23] <dogatemycomputer> ahhh..
[23:24] <hggdh> sorry
[23:24] <awardle> hggdh: Can you ping
[23:24] <dogatemycomputer> awardle: are you saying that you are able to fetch the keys from the k.u.c?
[23:25] <awardle> dogatemycomputer: Yes
[23:25] <hggdh> awardle: ping gets no response
[23:25] <dogatemycomputer> awardle: can you provide the IP address of the keyserver then?   That may be a temporary solution to a more permanent problem?
[23:25] <dogatemycomputer> awardle: unless there is some reason why it would work for you but fail for us?
[23:26] <hggdh> hum. Now I could get to it...
[23:26] <awardle> dogatemycomputer: Its 91.189.94.173
[23:26] <dogatemycomputer> awardle: I graduated from "cannot resolve" to "error 7, failed to connect"
[23:27] <hggdh> dogatemycomputer: heh. give me two minutes
[23:27] <dogatemycomputer> hggdh: okay.. now it is responding..
[23:27] <dogatemycomputer> hggdh:  strange..
[23:29] <hggdh> dogatemycomputer: try 'sudo apt-key adv --keyserver keyserver.ubuntu.com --recv-keys 428D7C01 5E0577F2'
[23:29] <hggdh> and, if it works fine, I will update the wiki
[23:30] <dogatemycomputer> hggdh: works fine..
[23:31] <dogatemycomputer> hggdh: for some reason.. the current code started working too.. even thought it failed the first several times.
[23:31] <hggdh> dogatemycomputer: good, one less peeble in the way
[23:31] <hggdh> this may have been a temporary issue on k.u.c, then
[23:31] <dogatemycomputer> hggdh: hahahaha..   well..  I think that's how you move the proverbial mountain..
[23:31] <hggdh> well, indeed, one peeble at a time
[23:31] <dogatemycomputer> hggdh: well.. thanks for the help!   Now i'm going to go try to help the customer.    I hope you have a great weekend!!
[23:32] <hggdh> dogatemycomputer: same to you. Anything, holler, someone will help you
[23:38] <yofel> can  someone set bug 407779 to triaged? thx
[23:38] <ubot4> Launchpad bug 407779 in software-properties "no manual entry for add-apt-respository" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/407779
[23:43] <hggdh> yofel: done. I adjusted the bug title and the package
[23:43] <hggdh> no, not the package
[23:43] <hggdh> title and importance
[23:44] <hggdh> yofel: thank you, BTW
[23:49] <yofel> you're welcome