[00:29] <bazhang> PhantomLink, hi
[01:10] <PhantomLink> hi
[01:11] <PhantomLink> entire valley lost internet/tv services
[01:44] <bazhang> oh its seaphor and friends
[02:01] <grex23> how come i come here
[02:01] <grex23> lame
[02:01] <bazhang> you are forwarded here
[02:01] <bazhang> whoops
[02:01] <Flannel> Anacranom seems to be soapboxing
[02:02] <bazhang> yep seaphor
[02:02] <Flannel> Is that seaphor?
[02:02] <bazhang> and adm1 is from the same channel
[02:02] <Flannel> He was oddly persistent and rude
[02:02] <bazhang> last time I tried to help him he called my advice 'totally worthless'
[02:39] <Flannel> bazhang: You're talking to him, right?
[02:39] <bazhang> Flannel, yep
[02:39] <bazhang> not booted him.. yet
[02:39] <bazhang> his first response: f off
[02:40] <bazhang> yikes
[02:49] <wgrant> Ban list full.
[02:50] <bazhang> yowie
[02:51] <bazhang> cleared 3 of mine
[02:51] <Flannel> got him
[02:51] <bazhang> there are a ton of exempts
[02:51] <Flannel> +e list is separate from +b list, as far as I know
[02:52] <bazhang> okay. will get rid of some of the older bans relegated to freenode.
[02:54] <ardchoille> I've been helping out in #ubuntu for years. Is there any chance on becoming an op? If so, what would I need to do?
[03:00] <bazhang> might be a good idea to have a set limit on some of these bans; the ban and forget list has gotten out of hand
[03:00] <wgrant> bazhang: Yeah, the list is pretty crazy.
[03:00] <bazhang> I have gone through the list previously, but hardly any of the lists I posted were addressed at all
[03:01] <bazhang> wgrant, at this point I am tempted to just clear some of other people's older bans (ie over a month old)
[03:01] <wgrant> bazhang: I'd say that
[03:02] <wgrant> ...'s a very good idea
[03:02] <bazhang> having one space in the ban list (currently) is nuts
[03:02] <wgrant> Looks like we might have to use it soon, too...
[03:02] <bazhang> ardchoille, sorry a bit busy at the moment :)
[03:03] <ardchoille> bazhang: Ah, ok.. I'll come back and ask again later, would that be best?
[03:04] <bazhang> ardchoille, or just hang around when someone free has time :) *I* am busy (or shortly will be) :)
[03:04] <ardchoille> ok
[03:04] <ardchoille> I think antlong in #ubuntu needs a hint
[03:04] <ardchoille> looks like he posted "rm -rf /home"
[03:04] <wgrant> I'll ban him if he continues.
[03:04] <ardchoille> thanks
[03:05] <ardchoille> I'd love to become an op and help the channel out more than I currently am able
[03:05] <bazhang> any objections to removal of bans more than a month? its currently unworkable
[03:05] <wgrant> At least a few.
[03:05] <wgrant> We will need them.
[03:06] <bazhang> okay
[03:07] <bazhang> whoops
[03:08] <ardchoille> what happened?
[03:08] <bazhang> tab mis-complete there wgrant
[03:08] <wgrant> ardchoille: yes, sorry. mistabbed. You're free now.
[03:08] <bazhang> at ban ardchoille instead of antlong
[03:08] <ardchoille> Ah, I'm back, thanks
[03:08] <bazhang> hehe
[03:08] <wgrant> Damn.
[03:08] <wgrant> Sorry.
[03:09] <ardchoille> no worries :)
[03:11]  * wgrant disappears for a few.
[03:12] <Flannel> bazhang: Don't remove my bans, they're all trimmed
[03:13] <bazhang> Flannel, none that I see named by you; the older netsplitted ones that are relegated to server.freenode.net
[03:14] <Flannel> bazhang: I've got some that are from november
[03:14] <bazhang> ie old ompaul, LjL etc
[03:14] <Flannel> And then two really old ones that just happened to be me
[03:14] <bazhang> from 2008 (early)
[03:14] <bazhang> and some of the botnet ones that were klined
[03:15] <bazhang> Flannel, if I do mistakenly remove any, I will reinstate; but having zero spaces right now, expedience dictates some action
[03:16] <Flannel> bazhang: reinstating removed bans is basically impossible (because you can't find them).  Instead, remove old forwards (last time I tried, there were old forwards that didn't actually exist, so I gave up)
[03:16] <Flannel> bazhang: Even having 10 or 20 spaces (which I think we've got now) will suffice.
[03:16] <bazhang> Flannel, right.
[03:17] <Flannel> bazhang: Once we're usable, compile a list of old, purgable bans, and then you can have people review them for things that ought not be purged
[03:17] <bazhang> Flannel, I have done that, on *three* different occasions; not going to go for four, thanks.
[03:19] <bazhang> at any rate, there are enough spaces for the near term. but I seriously believe that the ban and forget mode has to change, and getting folks to remove them in a relatively modest time frame (whatever that turns out to be) is something that needs to be addressed. the full banlist is but a symptom of a larger issue
[03:31] <tsimpson> ardchoille: generally the line is "we appoint operators, when we see there is a need, from the active contributors in the channel", but the council are all but non existent right now so I don't expect any operators to be created in the short term
[03:32] <Flannel> bazhang: Alright, then be grumpy about it.
[03:32] <bazhang> Flannel, sorry if I came across that way.
[03:32] <ardchoille> tsimpson: Thank you for the reply. If you ever need an extra op, keep me in mind.
[03:33] <tsimpson> ardchoille: when the IRCC are elected, please do come back and ask about it
[03:33] <bazhang> just being hit with antlong plus seaphor's concern trolling plus full banlist was a bit of a patience tester. My apologies Flannel
[03:33] <ardchoille> tsimpson: Will do
[03:33] <Flannel> bazhang: If you do it saying "I'll be clearing these bans unless they get removed" means that if people don't respond, you just remove them.  They should be old bans anyway, so on average, they'd be OK to remove, you just give people a chance to review them beforehand, just in case
[03:36] <Flannel> Bug team has bug days, we should have a ban review day!
[03:36] <bazhang> excellent idea!
[03:54] <bazhang> five-a-day, even!
[03:54] <sebsebseb> hi
[03:54] <bazhang> sebsebseb, you know why the floodbot banned you
[03:55] <bazhang> -sebsebseb/#ubuntu- test
[03:55] <sebsebseb> yes
[03:56] <bazhang> sebsebseb, please don't do that again.
[03:57] <sebsebseb> ok I won't
[03:58] <bazhang> you are unbanned sebsebseb ; feel free to rejoin #ubuntu
[03:59] <sebsebseb> well I was still in there, I just coudn't send messages
[03:59] <sebsebseb> ,but yes thanks for the ban removeale
[03:59] <bazhang> right, well feel free to rejoin in whichever capacity
[04:00] <sebsebseb> ok well
[04:01] <sebsebseb> you want me to leave here now I assume?
[04:01] <bazhang> sebsebseb, was there some other issue you wished to discuss ?
[04:01] <sebsebseb> bazhang: no
[04:02] <bazhang> sebsebseb, okay, then please , to keep the channel free for those with issues, thanks
[04:02] <sebsebseb> thanks again bye
[05:32] <wgrant> bazhang: That's around the third warning.
[05:32] <bazhang> wgrant, he was at it yesterday as well
[05:32] <wgrant> bazhang: Oh, lovely.
[05:33] <wgrant> bazhang: Does he deserve any more leniency?
[05:33] <bazhang> wgrant, he is mostly saying random things, but telling git__ that everyone using ubuntu has to install from scratch is something new with him
[05:36] <wgrant> bazhang: Looks like he's ceased trolling since he saw you.
[05:37] <bazhang> wgrant, I did give him a remove yesterday, perhaps he still recalls it
[05:44] <wgrant> Mmmmmmmm. That was borderline.
[05:47] <bazhang> going to remove coofish if he continues, will first PM
[05:50] <wgrant> Oh, sorry, missed that.
[05:50] <wgrant> Already got rid of him.
[05:50] <bazhang> no response via PM
[05:50] <wgrant> He just wandered back in.
[06:27] <LordObama> why does ardchoille bother joining this channel ever other day if he hates us so much>
[06:28] <Flannel> LordObama: What?
[06:28] <LordObama> he quit all ubuntu/kubuntu stuff a while back
[06:29] <LordObama> but it seems i see him in -ops complaining every other day
[06:57] <wgrant> bazhang: I think it's about time to ban him.
[06:57] <Flannel> Oh, he was aleady removed
[06:57] <Flannel> well, bugger.
[06:57] <wgrant> That's the third timein a couple of hours.
[06:57] <bazhang> he is trolling in #debian as well if there was ever any doubt
[06:58] <wgrant> OK, I'll ban him next time.
[06:58] <wgrant> Or now.
[06:58] <Flannel> I hate double dipping, and he rejoined before I could snag the ban.
[06:58] <wgrant> I don't know.
[06:58] <Flannel> or now.  That settles that!
[06:58] <wgrant> He's been at it long enough.
[06:59] <bazhang> I have a PM window open with him, see if he responds now
[06:59] <wgrant> Unlikely, but we'll see.
[07:05] <wgrant> Is that ban evasion I spy?
[07:05] <wgrant> bazhang: Any response?
[07:05] <bazhang> wgrant, not a peep
[07:15] <wgrant> Back again.
[07:18] <Flannel> That may hold him.
[07:18]  * wgrant must remember that trick.
[07:30] <gnomefreak> any freenode staffers around?
[07:38] <mneptok> @login
[07:39] <mneptok> phix appears to be evading in #u. bazhang, his last ban was yours.
[07:41] <Flannel> phrix you mean?
[07:41] <Flannel> oh, phix is another person
[07:42] <bazhang> mneptok, that was just a remove
[07:43] <bazhang> mneptok, ikonia did a name ban on him in July of this year
[07:43] <bazhang> ie  phix!*@*
[07:56] <Tm_T> hi
[08:19] <gnomefreak> hi
[08:25] <wgrant> What is this MrBoom?
[11:54] <Tm_T> silly things happen in #f
[14:35] <MenZa> !offline
[14:38] <Pricey> jpds: spoken to them?
[14:39] <jpds> Pricey: No.
[14:40] <jpds> Pricey: Obvious troll is obvious, and my life is too short/busy to bother. ;)
[14:40] <psinetic_> question.
[14:41] <Pricey> jpds: "not enough time" should not be an acceptable excuse.
[14:41] <bazhang> psinetic_, hi
[14:42] <Pricey> "reason" sorry, not "excuse"
[14:43] <psinetic_> i was in #ubuntu-offtopic, member by the name "NoCode" says a cuss word, I do what everyone else does and use the !language command. he replies "Psinetic, do not abuse the bot." nothing more was mentioned etc. etc. this happens every single time i use that code, and i never ever use it unless it's supposed to be used. everytime i even say the slightest word, even something that's not necessarily a cuss word, i get bashed for it, but i get told to
[14:43] <psinetic_> "not abuse the bot" everytime i use it...is this....normal?
[14:43] <bazhang> psinetic_, I noticed you are using #ubuntu-offtopic for support a great deal of late.
[14:43] <Pricey> psinetic_: The bot has lots of useful information. How would you feel though if I answered this question with a bot reply?
[14:44] <Pricey> psinetic_: Would you much rather I actively discussed things with you instead?
[14:44] <psinetic_> i'd be perfectly fine with that pricey
[14:44] <Pricey> psinetic_: You wouldn't prefer us having this discussion?
[14:44] <psinetic_> i would prefer it yes
[14:44] <Pricey> I do too :-)
[14:44] <Pricey> People will react much better to real people than bots.
[14:45] <Pricey> Sure, people should stay family friendly in #ubuntu-offtopic
[14:45] <psinetic_> bazhang, yes i have been using offtopic for support lately, because i've been dealing with alot of problems lately and haven't been getting much help with them in the support channel. i find that often when i ask in the offtopic channel i get help alot faster and i tend to know who's helping me
[14:45] <Pricey> But encouraging that with your own talk will be much more effective than just !language each time.
[14:45] <Pricey> bazhang: Has psinetic_ been disruptive?
[14:45] <psinetic_> Pricey, i understand that, but why do they use the bot on me all the time instead of just saying to not cuss?
[14:46] <Pricey> psinetic_: You sound as though you don't like them using the bot on you all the time ;-)
[14:46] <Pricey> psinetic_: Its the same thing.
[14:46] <bazhang> Pricey, have you read the /topic in #ubuntu-offtopic ? does that apply equally to all ?
[14:46] <psinetic_> hmmm makes sense.
[14:46] <Pricey> psinetic_: If only we were all lovely, nice, considerate people :-)
[14:47] <Pricey> bazhang: Ops are around to keep the channel a nice place to be & prevent disruption IMO.
[14:47] <psinetic_> hmmmm if only i were able to control my temper better online XD
[14:47] <Pricey> bazhang: We're not around to make sure people abide by the /topic
[14:47] <Pricey> psinetic_: We're all guilty of it occasionally.
[14:48] <bazhang> Pricey, best to change the topic there to reflect that; some users actually read it and think it is valid
[14:48] <Pricey> bazhang: No no, its valid.
[14:49] <bazhang> Pricey, so the problem with directing users to #ubuntu for support then ?
[14:49] <psinetic_> ok, i was just wondering what my response should have been, i mean, i just left it alone, but to be honest lately i've been feeling a bit cut-throat because of how much they just slam me with it but are double-minded when i do it back. sometimes it's almost as if i'm just targeted and everyone else gets away with it
[14:49] <Pricey> bazhang: If that's the best thing for the user(s), sure.
[14:50] <psinetic_> bazhang, i'll use #ubuntu for now on
[14:50] <Pricey> bazhang: However I don't think its important to bring up in this discussion.
[14:50] <Pricey> psinetic_: It isn't easy, and yeah, you're not the only one that feels like that.
[14:51] <Pricey> psinetic_: I would advise that PMs are better than bot commands in channel though.
[14:51] <Pricey> Not that you should PM *everyone* who says something naughty...
[14:51] <psinetic_> hmmmmmmm alright, pms i can do.
[14:52] <psinetic_> well, i get botted everytime i say something naughty
[14:52] <Pricey> doesn't make it ok to bot them back
[14:53] <psinetic_> so...when they bot me, should i respond the same way NoCode did? and tell them not to abuse the bot and to please pm me on first warnings?
[14:53] <Pricey> psinetic_: There's another option
[14:53] <psinetic_> oh?
[14:53] <Pricey> Not respond.
[14:53] <psinetic_> haha
[14:54]  * psinetic_ 's human intentions make him want to respond XD
[14:54] <psinetic_> ok, well now that we got that settled. i had a bit of a suggestion
[14:55] <psinetic_> i've been on the #ubuntu irc for months now, several months. i've had my good times, and my bad times
[14:55] <Pricey> Hehe well hardly settled :-)
[14:55] <psinetic_> one thing i've noticed is that as a support channel the #ubuntu channel is not organized well. let me explain as to not jump to conclusions
[14:56] <psinetic_> a user comes in, and posts a question
[14:56] <psinetic_> they wait about 10 mins
[14:56] <psinetic_> maybe ask it again
[14:56] <psinetic_> or sometimes they'll wait about 30 minutes
[14:56] <psinetic_> what they don't know is that someone in the background is actively searching for an answer
[14:56] <psinetic_> but they're just there waiting
[14:56] <Pricey> Yep, its far from perfect & the answers you get depend on who just happens to be there at the time.
[14:57] <Pricey> LjL did look at hte problem a little and made a bot to help with it, I forget hte name atm.
[14:57] <psinetic_> i know i've been extremely frustrated and just don't feel like waiting and reading and waiting some more.
[14:57] <psinetic_> i think what we need is this:
[14:57] <psinetic_> we need more structure in the way questions are asked and answered
[14:57] <psinetic_> asked well, doesn't matter really
[14:57] <psinetic_> just ask the question
[14:57] <psinetic_> lol
[14:57] <psinetic_> but answered
[14:57] <psinetic_> i think if someone's looking for the answer, they should let the guy know
[14:58] <psinetic_> for example:
[14:58] <psinetic_> hey guys, i'm having problems with such and such
[14:58] <Pricey> ahh right, i get what you mean
[14:58] <psinetic_> convos go on about diff things
[14:58] <psinetic_> on and on
[14:58] <psinetic_> someone notices
[14:58] <psinetic_> psinetic_ i'm looking for an answer now, please wait
[14:58] <psinetic_> ok cool, so now i know someone is looking, so i stop asking over and over again looking for a response
[14:58] <psinetic_> cleans the board up
[14:58] <psinetic_> saves network bandwidth
[14:59] <psinetic_> makes it easier and more fluid to ask and answer questions
[14:59] <psinetic_> all you gotta do is tell the guy you're actively looking for an answer
[14:59] <psinetic_> what do you think?
[14:59] <Pricey> That's certainly no bad idea.
[15:00] <Pricey> The problem is, how to get people doing it. I can only think of leading by example.
[15:00] <psinetic_> leading by example yes
[15:00] <psinetic_> possibly even leaving hints here and there
[15:00] <psinetic_> i mean one thing i DON'T see is a common message being pushed out as a reminder every oh, 30 mins to an hour
[15:00] <psinetic_> giving basic instructions
[15:00] <psinetic_> like the /topic
[15:01] <psinetic_> it'd be nice to have that posted in the irc every so ofter so people would read and know
[15:01] <psinetic_> also like announcements
[15:01] <psinetic_> my /topic is at the very top of the screen on a single line, i almost never read it
[15:03] <Pricey> When you join a channel, most clients display it pretty obviously.
[15:03] <psinetic_> hmmm mine doesn't for some reason
[15:04] <Pricey> oh it does
[15:04] <psinetic_> eh?
[15:04] <psinetic_> i never see it
[15:04] <Pricey>  /cycle
[15:04] <Pricey> got it/
[15:04] <psinetic_> now i see it
[15:04] <Pricey> :-)
[15:04] <Pricey> (People don't read those things)
[15:05] <psinetic_> but i didn't when i first joined
[15:05] <psinetic_> XD
[15:05] <psinetic_> hmmmmmmm.....
[15:06] <psinetic_> i'm trying to think of a way to let it be known and common knowledge for any structural changes in an irc chat.
[15:06] <psinetic_> people don't read those things because they're blocky. i see a bunch of text and skip right over it, course i usually don't see it at all.
[15:06] <psinetic_> if they were line by line they'd read them easier
[15:07] <Pricey> How do you know its important?
[15:07] <psinetic_> it's a different color
[15:08] <psinetic_> but what if i'm color blind :P
[15:08] <Pricey> allowing colours would probably be more disruptive
[15:09] <psinetic_> what if we had a bot that would periodically make comments in the chat that appeared red to the chatter giving bits and pieces of the /topic or methods at which questions and answers are done i'm sure would help the situation
[15:09] <psinetic_> yes you're right colors would be more disruptive
[15:09] <Pricey> You can't enable colours for justone user.
[15:09] <psinetic_> hmmm that would take up alot of bandwidth too
[15:10] <jussi01> Metabot
[15:10] <psinetic_> metabot?
[15:10] <jussi01> 1 sec, Ill grab a wiki page
[15:11] <psinetic_> kk
[15:13] <jussi01> Hrm, cant see it right this second...
[15:13] <jussi01> but you can see an agregation of questions in #metabot
[15:13] <psinetic_> hehe, "hmmmmm" isn't acceptable XD
[15:14] <psinetic_> oh so it tells you when someone asks a question?
[15:14] <jussi01> psinetic_: please dont talk in there
[15:14] <jussi01> no, when a question goes unanswered.
[15:15] <psinetic_> oh....nifty
[15:15] <psinetic_> even still, the amount of text and space saved from not having people constantly ask their questions over and over again only because no one has told them that they're looking for an answer would be massive
[15:15] <psinetic_> and it'll make the support atmosphere much more fluint
[15:17] <jussi01> psinetic_: again as Pricey has said, its very hard to communicate that, so best just to lead by example.
[15:17] <jussi01> psinetic_: actually, what you really want is #ubuntu-meta
[15:18] <psinetic_> i just don't like that though. because if the people dont know that the norm, then they won't do it. if it's at least put out there, they're more likely to do it. if u ask a question, and i just tell you i'm looking for the answer, cool. but the other guys helping won't make the connection, and keep doing things the same.
[15:18] <jussi01> psinetic_: we already communicate to people not to repeat too much, so that also helps
[15:19] <jussi01> !repeat
[15:19] <psinetic_> hmmmmmm
[15:20] <psinetic_> jussi01, i don't know. i'm a computer technician with the military, i'm just use to the way we run support. we always let them know we're working on it so as to give them ease of mind, it makes our job alot easier
[15:22] <psinetic_> ok well, just a suggestion
[15:22] <psinetic_> i'll leave you guys to it :)
[15:22] <psinetic_> thanks for the clarification
[15:23] <jussi01> no probs, please dont think we are ignoring it )
[15:24] <psinetic_> no i know you're not, it's a big support irc, u guys have alot of things going on in the background the rest of us don't see. :)
[15:24] <psinetic_> haha, maybe if i can calm my temper down i can join u guys in the ops someday
[15:24] <psinetic_> hahaha
[15:24] <psinetic_> see you guys later
[15:24] <bazhang> Pricey, my apologies for bringing it up. I thought it relevant or I would not have done so.
[15:52] <ikonia> fyi: I'm looking at Ompauls bans, I'm just waiting for an email response at the moment
[15:52] <bazhang> already removed a couple
[15:53] <ikonia> yup, hence why I'm mentioning it
[15:53] <bazhang> kind of an emergency earlier today :)
[15:54] <ikonia> totally, I've been reading the scroll back
[16:00] <bazhang> 'ubuntu-related' torrents
[16:02]  * jpds rolls-eyes.
[16:02] <bazhang> vlc!
[16:12] <jpds> Woo.
[16:13] <ikonia> freenode's been having a hard time with splits over the last few weeks
[20:06] <mac9416> Hey y'all, I submitted some ubottu factoids earlier. Just wanted to let you know so you can approve/reject them.
[20:06] <ikonia> thanks
[20:07] <mac9416> np. I wasn't sure how often y'all checked for them, so I wanted to point you to them. Thanks.
[22:24] <Flannel> Howdy Augusto, how can we help you today?
[23:54] <Flannel> There's three!
[23:55] <jussi01> 3?
[23:55] <jussi01> Flannel: could you check the FB bans?
[23:55]  * jussi01 is about to head out to grab girlfriend...
[23:56] <Flannel> jussi01: I'll take a look, yeah
[23:56] <jussi01> Flannel: thanks a million.