[00:00] Lex79: dude, you've thought of everything [00:01] :) [00:01] Lex79: so tomorrow morning I should copy over to the beta PPA and announce? [00:01] this just in: kdeedu is kicking my ass [00:02] Riddell: yes thanks [00:02] Lex79: did you finish the kdeedu stuff in karmic? [00:02] I thought it's not finished yet in lucid [00:03] ok, that's what I am working on now...I would like to get the R backend included, but it is FTBFS due to KIO::NetAccess shit...trying to figure that out [00:03] should be done tonight, one way or the other...ie. with or without R support [00:05] Lex79: new patch [00:05] [18:56:47] JontheEchidna: squashed just for you: http://qt.gitorious.org/~sandsmark/qt/sandsmarks-kde-qt-with-updated-phonon/commit/ff5549e03b1f000f5d3520a5c1d6b2c4e0d3866b [00:06] JontheEchidna: the diff is made with qt 4.6.0 or kde-qt ? [00:06] kde-qt I think [00:07] It might be best to make a qt -> kdeqt patch that is separate from the phonon update patch if we haven't done so already [00:08] The fast way is download sandsmark branch and diff against 4.6.0, that it was I done yesterday [00:09] Riddell: can you upload that? http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-members/kdebase-workspace/ubuntu/revision/234 [00:09] Lex79: ok [00:25] what is the purpose of installgen? seems I missed that conversation :) === fale_ is now known as fale [00:36] nixternal: AFAIK it can be removed. [00:36] well I see every package, but kdeedu, has an installgen file [00:36] that isn't the same installgen from perl is it? [00:37] probably because I removed that one. [00:37] I think it's a build artifact. [00:42] Anyone getting codec errors in kaffeine ? [00:43] ScottK: so close https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdebase-runtime/4:4.3.80-0ubuntu8/+build/1396928/+files/buildlog_ubuntu-lucid-armel.kdebase-runtime_4:4.3.80-0ubuntu8_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz [00:44] ScottK, nixternal: debian uses it with some black magic to produce .install files [00:46] Riddell: Very close. I guess we need the qt-phonon patch and retry. [00:47] Riddell: kdenetwork built after the qimageblitz rebuild. So progress. === yofel_ is now known as yofel === rdieter is now known as rdieter_work === Pici` is now known as Pici === jtechidna is now known as JontheEchidna [02:05] why does firefox on kubuntu seem to be so slow for me w/ multiple tabs? [02:05] same box running windows i don't expereince so much of a slowness [02:10] JontheEchidna: what was your package that changes the desktop background based on the weather? === yofel_ is now known as yofel [02:10] jjesse: it's in with several other plugins in plasma-wallpapers-addons [02:12] JontheEchidna: thanks, do i use the BBC as the source or use NOAA? [02:12] in 4.3 BBC works the best [02:12] though both should work in 4.4, come beta2 [02:13] hrmm i can't find grand rapids, mi [02:13] do i search by the city or by the weather code? [02:14] city name === yofel is now known as Guest7105 === Pici is now known as Guest66795 [02:14] hrmm no cities that i've search for are showing up, grand rapids, or detroit, or chicago [02:17] jjesse: I forget but at some point I just went and found the code and put it in. I really can't remember now if it was the wallpaper or some weather plasmoid though my memory is telling me it was a plasmoid [02:17] * Daskreech still thinks there should be a kubuntu-komplete package [02:17] oh yeah, the bbc broke their search engine recently [02:17] again :( [02:20] though apachelogger suggests kubuntu-dvd may make more sense [02:20] maco: ping === nhandler is now known as Guest15490 [02:30] thats a bummer [02:33] Hmm? [02:34] oh BBC [02:35] yeah and when i select NOAA it finds my city but doesn't change the background ever === Guest15490 is now known as nhandler === bbigras is now known as Guest55428 === nixternal_ is now known as nixternal [03:54] JontheEchidna: qt4 uploaded to ninja [03:54] Lex79: Is it in bzr too? [03:55] ScottK: no, should I upload? [03:55] Lex79: Which Qt change is this? [03:55] Is this the one with the phonon fixes in it? [03:55] ScottK: yes [03:56] Lex79: I'd put it in bzr then so Riddell or I can upload it. [03:58] ScottK: before uploading we have to rebuild kdebase-runtime against that and see if build works [03:58] Lex79: OK. That's good, but it should still be in bzr. If it doesn't work out, bzr revert is easy enough. [03:58] and JontheEchidna working today on that but it was ftbs, so now I change the patch [03:58] OK. [04:07] koffice needs re-queueing for lucid [04:07] Is there a koffice-kde4 for Lynx ? [04:09] koffice in a cli web browser, wow [04:13] * Daskreech still wants a aalib plugin for w3m to support images === nhandler is now known as evilnhandler [05:08] Riddell: kdegraphics built on armel, so another one knocked out. [05:28] oh, nice, twinkle is now properly in the system tray as opposed to floating randomly [05:29] I finally fixed the kdeedu package issue...funny thing is we need to patch a CMakeLists.txt file, whereas nobody else has to [05:31] by fixed, I mean cantor finally builds...I am sure there are some fubarred .install files yet to come [05:34] * Daskreech votes for nepomuk working out of the box as goal for Lynx === yofel_ is now known as yofel [06:13] ScottK: kdeedu built, nothing missing, new cantor (with all backends available) and rocs packages included...just dput it as well as uploaded changes to bzr [06:26] nixternal: this is for lynx? [06:26] for now it is, until Lex79 backports it :) [07:01] warning to Chromium users: [07:01] latest Daily Build is totally borked [07:01] don't upgrade :) [07:01] is there any way to downgrade to yesterday's build? === fabo_ is now known as fabo [07:02] http://identi.ca/conversation/16750743#notice-16750743 [07:02] They joy continues [07:03] markey: Why don't you use the beta PPA instead of the daily? [07:03] I don't know, tbh :) [07:03] someone recommended this to me [07:03] ehm [07:03] I am using a PPA [07:03] maybe you misunderstood [07:04] # Mozilla Daily Build PPA: [07:04] deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/ubuntu-mozilla-daily/ppa/ubuntu karmic main [07:04] deb-src http://ppa.launchpad.net/ubuntu-mozilla-daily/ppa/ubuntu karmic main [07:04] ^ [07:04] I think it comes from there [07:04] IIRC [07:05] Swap daily with beta? [07:06] lOL at TM repos Nice that Lefty gets his own trademark [07:06] ah wait [07:06] the problem might have fixed itself [07:07] Chromium uses some very smart code for analyzing itself [07:07] restarted it again [07:07] and it seems better now [07:07] you can see what it does when it takes a long time to start [07:07] then it reconfigures some parameters internally [07:09] yeah [07:09] seems fixed now :) [07:09] chromium++ [07:14] Sweet [07:14] * jussi01 waves. did someone get the meeting date sorted from doodle? or do I need to still do it? [07:15] That said, I feel KDE and Gnome are just about on par with one another anymore. [07:15] I never understand what the internet means anymore :( [07:16] hm? [07:20] that grammar didn't make sense :) [07:22] I know and as near as I can guess he was saying that KDE and Gnome are equivalent [07:23] But i can't figure out if that judgement is true or if it is which has caught up with which [07:30] uh, gNOme is still stuck in the 1990s [07:30] there hasn't been any real innovation in the past few years [07:32] I still don't get what Daskreech meant [07:32] might need another coffee [07:43] markey: Chromium is nice for G* sites [07:43] not only that [07:43] nice for everything :) [07:43] Sput: That's why they are having a Gnome 3.0 [07:43] freaking fast [07:44] Daskreech: 3.0 is just 2.30 relabeled [07:44] feels that way [07:44] there is *no* innovation [07:44] and not eating my CPU either [07:44] Sput: 2.32 didn't you get the Memo? :) [07:45] Sput: and I think not having files is an interesting innovation [07:46] not having files? [07:47] Zeitgeist is supposed to abstract away the files and file system [07:52] isn't that mostly a subset of what akonadi/nepomuk do? [07:52] sparql and all? [07:54] Yes but it's a subset of qhat Zeitgist is as well [07:54] Just that it has a goal of eliminating the need for a file system type heirarchy structure [07:55] that's just because gtk's filedialog sucks [07:55] and they don't manage to get it usable :P [07:56] Oh lord does it suck [07:56] Not the Zeitgest's is any better [07:56] possibly slightly worse [07:56] I'm sure they have conducted professional usability studies that prove it's the best way to do it [07:56] I'm sure they haven't [07:56] they did that for the ok/cancel button order too [07:57] proving that it's easier for the user [07:57] Last I saw of Zeitgeist's it was pretty bad [07:57] except if he has ever used or will ever be using another platform [07:57] and most people didn't know what was going on. [07:57] But after it comes out give it a year or two then I'll pass judgement on what I think of the project [07:58] Using another platform isn't a problem because Gnome is all encompassing :) [07:59] Seriously though button order isn't that bad. I've seen apps put the button order randomly to force the user to read what was happening [07:59] That was annoying. But switching two buttons doesn't make that much of a difference [07:59] I'd rail more against OSZ moving buttnos allll the way to the other side of the window [08:00] I'm such a KDE ho :( [08:10] I seriously think it's only a matter of (little?) time until shuttleworth replaces GNOME with KDE [08:10] GNOME is a technological dead-end [08:10] there is no saving it, at this point [08:10] (plus the ethical issues) [08:12] check this article: http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/12068_3852391_3/KDE-44-Beta-Incremental-Doesnt-Mean-Directionless.htm [08:12] and then enjoy a quote from a comment: [08:12] "KDE has become unique and no disrespect intended: It is simply the best DE available for computers, and with the momentum and fantastic creativity it's a moving target that any other OS or DE will struggle to catch." [08:12] which is (sorry to say) the truth [08:13] I checked out Windows 7 the other day, it's Vista with Plasma on top [08:14] they even copied our clock thing, and the config thing, the task-bar. it all looks very similar :) [08:29] morning folks :) [08:31] markey: You mistake technology and vision as a recipe for success :) [08:31] do I? :) [08:31] time will tell [08:32] Too many times I've seen the better technology get ignored in favour of the shiny or the heavy marketed [08:32] yeah [08:32] :) [08:32] like no one needs blue ray [08:33] o.o [08:33] Ha ha [08:33] except the film industry [08:33] I do [08:33] hi hunger_t [08:33] Daskreech: Hi! [08:34] Daskreech: What is happening on the ubuntu front? [08:34] hunger_t: We march forward!! and we have Timelords now [08:34] we have another advantage: our community is much less divided than theirs [08:34] markey: Than Windows? [08:34] they quarrel about the whoe Mono thing, etc [08:34] GNOME [08:34] Oh Gnome [08:35] quarreling happens in Windows too, you just don't get to see it ;) [08:35] Pfft Comparing community is not even an exercise [08:35] markey: In MS of course. But that's the not the community that counts [08:35] Wow, timelords. Cool. [08:36] hunger_t: very much so. How's Telepathy? [08:36] markey: I think it's interesting that MS has people excited about Windows 7 [08:36] Daskreech: I gave up on that long ago. It just sucks too hard. [08:36] hunger_t: Give it lollipops? [08:37] Daskreech: Plus my last employer was telling me I was stealing company resources to work on that project, so I *had* to stop:-) [08:37] Daskreech: I was very much tempted to do a alternative spec:-) [08:37] they exited with win7 cause they ripped half of the code in this house :D [08:37] Daskreech: with that amount of money, you could make people interested about donuts wrapped in crap [08:37] Not a bad idea if it was well thought out [08:37] ghostcube: Good point :) [08:37] heh [08:38] Did you see that BestBuy was susing KDE4 to sell Windows Laptops? [08:38] using [08:38] markey: Win7 is actually pretty OK. Not great, but better than vista (which I did not find as bad as everybody said it was, too) [08:38] :O [08:38] hunger_t: Where are you working now? [08:38] hunger_t: it hasent be so difficult to be better than vista [08:38] Daskreech: Nokia. Hacking merrily on QtCreator. [08:38] hunger_t: When did you buy into Vista? [08:38] cause this was gameboy os ion workstations [08:39] Daskreech: Dunno. Came with the box, runs the occassional game I like to play. [08:39] hunger_t: ha! fantastic. Though I think that Telepathy would find interest at Nokia [08:39] woha btw anyyone played assasins creed 2 [08:39] wow [08:39] definetly wow [08:39] this would be cool to have on ubuntu [08:39] Daskreech: Telepathy is funded by nokia. [08:39] :D [08:39] Actually Bluetooth would find interest. Get them to pay you to make KDE Bluetooth seamless :) [08:39] caonincal could reinvent telepathy :P [08:39] :D [08:39] hi apachelogger [08:39] that said, ahoy [08:39] Daskreech: Ever has been. That might be why it works reasonably in the controlled environment of a phone... [08:40] markey: gnome might be quarreling over mono, kde however over quassel vs. konvi ;) [08:40] hunger_t: Well if you had an alternative spec that is better designed put it on paper and ship it out [08:41] you talk about this damn thingy taken from windoos to unix env and was called mono brain cell use ? [08:41] the reason they want Trolls and Qt is to unify the software stack across all computers and phones [08:41] * apachelogger hugs hunger_t for qt creater 1.3 [08:41] Daskreech: That's the problem: I'd need a website and quite a bit of promo and stuff. [08:41] much nicer for c development than 1.2 for some reason :D [08:41] apachelogger: I have only tested that one:-) [08:41] Making a proper spec that works across computers and phones is something they would be willing to throw weight behind [08:41] * apachelogger finds testing most important [08:42] apachelogger: The next version will have some things I did though. And it will be really ALWSOME (not only due to my stuff:-) [08:42] apachelogger: And kdevelop vs Qt creator as well as KHTML vs Webkit [08:42] always these heaps of awesomeness [08:43] Daskreech: I do not see those:-) [08:43] hunger_t: which? [08:43] Daskreech: I do not think that kdevelop and qt creator can really contest on many levels [08:43] Daskreech: KHTML is dead, Qt ctreator and kdevelpo seem to coexist nicely. [08:44] * apachelogger does his weekly android updates [08:46] * Daskreech wants to do android updates :( [08:47] * hunger_t just hops to finally get a decent wlan widget in kde 4.4. [08:47] Never!!! [08:47] mhh, new facebook app [08:47] The official one seems to suck again and the ubuntu one is really ugly. [08:47] hunger_t: Why would you need your own site/promo ? [08:48] wlan widget? [08:48] Daskreech: Because I need a place to put the spec, the code, faq, etc [08:48] Daskreech: And without promo such any project is just dead. [08:48] oh [08:48] Daskreech: http://aplg.kollide.net/images/android/notificationbar.png [08:49] hunger_t: I was looking at it as an update to the Telepathy spec [08:50] Daskreech: No chance for that. Collabora won't let other people play. [08:50] Daskreech: They are making quite a bit of money with that spec... they won't just have anyone walk in and take over. [08:51] Again it's not taking over :) === hunger_t is now known as hunger [08:51] It's advancing it to be more playable [08:51] Daskreech: I tried that for 3 years... *no* success whatsoever. [08:51] expanding the viabilty of the spec is in their interest isn't it [08:52] Wow :) ok then yeah make something that shoots them down [08:52] Daskreech: Those guys are afraid of abstraction... which kind of sucks for developers of an abstraction layer:-( [08:52] Daskreech: I do not have the resources to shoot them down:-) [08:53] webkit is fine so far [08:53] i just run the gtk port [08:53] but in midori it gets better each release [08:53] it lags a lot of needed ones so far but it gets better [08:54] hun who would be interested in a more abstract spec? [08:54] is there still anybody working on packaging 4.4 beta 1? [08:55] Yes [08:55] Daskreech: Everybody who does not want to eat through the implementation details of half a douzend different protocols, each leaking into the spec. [08:56] apachelogger: What is that highlighting? [08:56] Daskreech: Everybody who does want to know whether a module will work before actually loading and trying it. [08:56] Daskreech: my filled up notificationbar, show casing that android needs a different solution for notificaitons :P [08:56] So mostly software folks? [08:56] * apachelogger notes that his bar is sometimes even more full than on the screenie [08:57] apachelogger: Iwas trying to figure out what those things were at the top [08:57] Daskreech: You know that the preferred method of finding out which version of the spec is supported by a telepathy CM is to get all interfaces you are interested in and count the methods exported via D-Bus? [08:57] woha full android so far apachelogger [08:57] Google has really 1/2 baked software stacks [08:57] :S [08:57] * hunger will stop ranting and get back to work:-) [08:59] hunger: Sad though Hardware people are more likely to throw money at you [08:59] Software people are less likely to show backing without something working [10:09] Kubuntu meeting tomorrow at 18:00 UTC? === freeflyi1g is now known as freeflying === mgraesslin_ is now known as mgraesslin [11:08] nixternal: Nice (kdeedu) [11:24] I'm copying 4.4 beta 1 from staging to beta PPA [11:24] :O [11:24] knutsch [11:24] :-* [11:24] :) [11:25] haha [11:25] heh [11:25] anyone able to test it? [11:25] later sure [11:25] at work ;( [11:26] Riddell: which is the beta ppa... /me is confused... [11:26] pure ppa or without anything [11:26] i think so [11:26] kubuntu-ppa-beta i think [11:26] o.O [11:26] another one [11:27] * ghostcube thinks we got too much ppa this days [11:27] :D [11:27] ~kubuntu-ppa/beta [11:28] Riddell: could you please reply to the updates, upgrades... thread on the ml? [11:29] jussi01: https://launchpad.net/~kubuntu-ppa/+archive/beta this one eh ? [11:30] apachelogger: ok [11:30] ok, can someone please tell me why we have like a thousand PPA's again? Ive 2 in my sources list and you are asking to add a 3rd? [11:30] http://ppa.launchpad.net/kubuntu-ppa/ppa/ubuntu [11:31] :D [11:31] i have 4 in my sources [11:31] deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/kubuntu-ppa/backports/ubuntu karmic main [11:31] backport backport beta ppa and experimental [11:31] o.O [11:31] jussi01: because different people want different packages [11:32] good point :P [11:32] so we have stable and beta "branches" (: [11:32] makes sense [11:32] yeah we get debian clone [11:32] :D [11:32] even experimental [11:32] * ghostcube hides [11:32] more flexiable than debian [11:33] just joking :) [11:33] * jussi01 doesnt particularly like it, but ok. If thats how it is... [11:33] I see workspace built on armel. [11:34] jussi01: what would you prefer? that we just overwrite the stable updates with 4.4. beta? [11:34] Riddell: no, that it goes into experimental. [11:34] nah [11:34] or ppa. [11:34] experimental is for developers not users [11:35] ppa is for minor point release updates [11:35] we have backport, ppa, experimental and now beta... [11:35] none of which are new [11:35] beta-backports makes sense after thinking about [11:35] Will be tomorrow a Kubuntu meeting at 18:00 UTC? [11:36] if anything we should have another one for people wanting say amarok beta without KDE SC beta [11:36] ulysses__: yes [11:36] Riddell: oh, yeah, could you confirm that meeting on the ML please! === Riddell changed the topic of #kubuntu-devel to: Lucid Alpha 1 Released! | Kubuntu has the Doctor on the brain | https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo | almost congatulations to Quintasan | Meeting Wednesday 18:00UTC [11:36] :) [11:36] * ulysses__ going to subscribe for membership [11:40] Riddell: how did you solve amarok issue? [11:42] Tm_T: in lucid I patched it not to test for qtscriptgenerator, karmic still doesn't seem to have compiled [11:42] * ScottK grumbles about r-base-core and Universe and kdeedu at nixternal and goes off to do some $work [11:44] Riddell: roger [11:47] do we have support policy of kubuntu-ppa somewhere written down? I mean "this source is fully supported in similar way than regular ubuntu.com sources" or "this particular ppa is not for users, no support whatsoever" [11:48] if yum was any slower.... [11:48] Tm_T: hopefully claydoh will do that :) [11:49] Tm_T: working on it [11:49] apachelogger: aah, great, so I can ref to it (:) [11:54] jussi01: can you close the poll? then it doesn't show up as a million entries in my calendar but only one ;-) [11:55] Nightrose: we prefer keeping you busy (;) [11:55] ta da http://www.kubuntu.org/news/kde-sc-4.4-beta-1 [11:55] Tm_T: you don't need that poll for that... :D [11:55] trust mw [11:55] *me [11:55] Nightrose: done [11:55] thx :) [12:01] Lex79: koffice doesn't need to keep the -kde4 packages [12:02] it should change to use non-suffixed names [12:05] only 116 packages in New queue, let's see what can be done about that [12:05] I've added the meeting to the Fridge Calendar (http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar) and to the Kubuntu Meeting page (https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings) [12:06] thanks ulysses__ [12:06] 12:01 < maelcum> public service announcement: update kde-qt to stop the plasma crashes in taskbar code. somebody backported the appropriate bugfix. [12:07] now if only I knew how to use git... [12:07] Riddell: you're welcome [12:13] Riddell: For Karmic the apt line isn't 'deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/kubuntu-ppa/beta/ubuntu *karmic* main' instead of 'deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/kubuntu-ppa/beta/ubuntu *lucid* main' [12:13] ? [12:16] doh [12:16] fixed, pending cache update [12:24] Another issue: after adding the Kubuntu Beta PPA to the sources, the user should use 'sudo apt-get update' and 'sudo apt-get dist-upgrade' (If he/she uses KDE) [12:36] ulysses__: why? [12:38] Riddell: Why 'sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop' ? I think the most users interested in KDE have Kubuntu [12:40] i must ack ulysses__ cause i havent thought about installing kubuntu-desktop [12:40] i always just do apt-get update && apt-get upgrade ... === rdieter_work is now known as rdieter [12:43] ulysses__: what are you proposing should be changed? [12:44] Installatin via lucid daily live iso is borken for the last 3 days. ubiquity kde_ui does not start. Is there a known workaround? [12:44] allee-k: kdesudo ubiquity ? [12:45] Riddell: just about done on the beta install... lets see how this goes... [12:45] :) [12:47] Riddell: that was the problem. So all left todo is to set 'run as root' is Desktop/Kubuntu Installation 10.04.desktop. [12:47] Riddell: thx [12:48] mhmm and maybe a better error msg ;) [12:50] allee-k: i think it's fixed in bzr [12:51] Riddell: which repo url? [12:54] allee-k: lp:ubiquity [13:03] * Riddell takes one down, passes around, 17 packges left in New queue [13:46] waa, new queue is now getting larger, too many of my accepted packages compiling! [13:48] hehe [13:50] polkit-qt-1 is compiling on ports... nice [13:50] yay, 4.4 beta plasma crashes. [13:51] eviljussi01: I had a crash in the systray applet [13:52] Riddell: remind me how to restart plasma. [13:52] eviljussi01: alt-f2 plasma-desktop [13:55] Riddell: http://pastebin.ca/1715679 [13:55] /usr/lib/kde4/plasma_applet_stasks.so dunno what that does [13:56] rm /usr/lib/kde4/plasma_applet_stasks.so would fix it though :) [13:56] oh, its the alternate task manager [13:58] ok, we are back... [14:00] why is jussi evil? [14:00] txwikinger: cant get to quassel right now... this is irssi [14:01] rofl [14:01] and Im back!! [14:02] I want to devel a feature similar to what happes in gnome, when someone insert a CD to open package manager. Where I can find documentation about devicekit, dbus whatever, in order to implement this? [14:03] New queue zero! === mgraesslin_ is now known as mgraesslin [14:04] rafasmart: you would probably need a kded module which would use the solid API to listen for new devices and check them for being packages sources when they appear [14:05] unfortunately we don't mount devices when they get mounted, might be worth investigating the status of that upstream [14:05] s/get mounted/get inserted/ [14:07] mounting automatically without possiblity to turn that automount off is evil, btw [14:08] Tm_T: why? [14:09] I don't know how gnome does it, if it mounts, checks if it's a package source, then unmounts (probably not) [14:13] Riddell: for cd it's ok but for example sd-cards and similar ... I often plug something in, and run fsck for it [14:13] Tm_T: why do they need fsck? [14:15] debfx: don't forget to merge abiword [14:16] Riddell: for example if I know there's something broken in filesystem (: [14:16] or just to check [14:16] maco: you're down to merge hunspell-en-us [14:16] Riddell: will do tomorrow [14:16] aspell as well? [14:17] maco: not that I can see (I'm just looking through main.html on merges.u.c) [14:18] hm. ok. thought i was TIL on hunspell-en-us and aspell-en or -en-us or whatever it's called [14:18]